Re: Starving people refuse to eat food aid
Walter Bushell
David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
> In alt.folklore.urban Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> :In article <he26pr$6sk$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> :David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
> :>In alt.folklore.urban Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> :>:In article <he20k1$igd$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> :>:David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
> :>:>
> :>:>Put it on grill. Turn every minute or two. Remove when cooked.
> :>
> :>:But what do you do about dripping-grease flares?
> :>
> :>Exactly what the instructions say.
>
> :Which instructions where?
>
> those instructions up there: Put it on grill. Turn every minute or
> two. Remove when cooked.
>
> Take careful note of what the instructions say to do about flare ups.
>
> :You know, I would really like to know the answer to this question
> :-- how do you keep the bacon grease from making the fire flare up
> :and carbonizing everything? -- but you seem to be more concerned
> :with having fun.
>
> No, I'm much more concerned about cooking dinner.
Going to Mars, of course. We are all going to die anyway. Why worry?
Unborn tomorrow; dead yesterday. In between time, in the mean time ain't
we got fun?
--
A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.
Robert Carnegie
Not to be greedy, but was that a response to my question - what's more
important: going to Mars or curing cancer?
Likewise I put having fun ahead of (and distinct from) cooking dinner
as far as I'm concerned, but I usually use the microwave.
Dimensional Traveler
cancer if we don't _go_ to Mars!
(And how do you know there aren't any cancer-curing lichen on Mars if we
haven't been there to check?)
--
7 Years - 2265 Experiments - 10 tons of explosives - 705 Myths
Myths - Will - Fall!
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
> Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > Walter Bushell wrote:
> >> David Scheidt <dsche...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> >>> In alt.folklore.urban Dorothy J Heydt <djhe...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >>> :In article <he26pr$6s...@reader1.panix.com>,
> >>> :David Scheidt <dsche...@panix.com> wrote:
> >>> :>In alt.folklore.urban Dorothy J Heydt <djhe...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >>> :>:In article <he20k1$ig...@reader1.panix.com>,
> >>> :>:David Scheidt <dsche...@panix.com> wrote:
> >>> :>:>
> >>> :>:>Put it on grill. Turn every minute or two. Remove when cooked.
> >>> :>
> >>> :>:But what do you do about dripping-grease flares?
> >>> :>
> >>> :>Exactly what the instructions say.
>
> >>> :Which instructions where?
>
> >>> those instructions up there: Put it on grill. Turn every minute or
> >>> two. Remove when cooked.
>
> >>> Take careful note of what the instructions say to do about flare ups.
>
> >>> :You know, I would really like to know the answer to this question
> >>> :-- how do you keep the bacon grease from making the fire flare up
> >>> :and carbonizing everything? -- but you seem to be more concerned
> >>> :with having fun.
>
> >>> No, I'm much more concerned about cooking dinner.
> >> Going to Mars, of course. We are all going to die anyway. Why worry?
> >> Unborn tomorrow; dead yesterday. In between time, in the mean time ain't
> >> we got fun?
>
> > Not to be greedy, but was that a response to my question - what's more
> > important: going to Mars or curing cancer?
>
> But we can't harvest the Martian lichen that contains the key to curing
> cancer if we don't _go_ to Mars!
>
> (And how do you know there aren't any cancer-curing lichen on Mars if we
> haven't been there to check?)
Well, that's the trouble with lichen.
And anyway, right now the Martian lichens are saying to each other,
"I, for one, welcome our new Earth remote programmed solar powered
robotic skateboard overlords. I'd like to remind them that, as a
hardy indigenous extremophile, I can be helpful in finding others
living on the undersides of rocks or deep down in the frozen soil."
Look, what is it about looking for vital drugs hidden in your rain
forests and your coral reefs and your, your, your rapidly thawing
tundra! Most living things' main voluntary input into the lifestyles
of other types of living thing is to try to poison them. If you do
find something useful then the intellectual property will belong to
some grubby tribesmen who will spend the money on booze and plasma
screen TVs. But I think it's a hoax anyway. Some drug company
invents a chemical and then they pretend it comes from the rain
forest, so it's natural and it's all expensive and also they get to
see their competitor sending researchers out to become mosquito food
whilst trying to find their own good thing. It probably goes right
back to aspirin and pren!tending that it came from chewing tree bark.
And then watching the other guys going out to bite trees, ha ha ha!
cryptoguy
OK, what stories can we remember that involve a Earthian Invasion of
Mars? Lets restrict it to ones where Mars had a sentient native
population.
'A Martian Odyssey'
'The Martian Chronicles'
...there are plenty of others, I think.
pt
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
Is _Edison's Conquest of Mars_ the first? And in the movies, _Flash
Gordon's Trip to Mars_, may not be.
I have a feeling that many U.S.-written stories felt entitled to
present human-colonised Mars with the marsies second-class citizens at
best on their own planet, without much explanation. I wonder what was
the inspiration for that...
Lawrence Watt-Evans
talk-o...@moderators.isc.or�g <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Nov 23, 1:56�pm, cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> OK, what stories can we remember that involve a Earthian Invasion of
>> Mars? Lets restrict it to ones where Mars had a sentient native
>> population.
>>
>> 'A Martian Odyssey'
>> 'The Martian Chronicles'
>>
>> ...there are plenty of others, I think.
"A Rose for Ecclesiastes," sort of. _The Sword of Rhiannon_.
Those are both set after the invasion, though, so maybe they aren't
what you're after.
>Is _Edison's Conquest of Mars_ the first? And in the movies, _Flash
>Gordon's Trip to Mars_, may not be.
>
>I have a feeling that many U.S.-written stories felt entitled to
>present human-colonised Mars with the marsies second-class citizens at
>best on their own planet, without much explanation. I wonder what was
>the inspiration for that...
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm selling my comic collection -- see http://www.watt-evans.com/comics.html
I'm serializing a novel at http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight0.html
Don Aitken
<treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>OK, what stories can we remember that involve a Earthian Invasion of
>Mars? Lets restrict it to ones where Mars had a sentient native
>population.
>
>'A Martian Odyssey'
>'The Martian Chronicles'
>
>...there are plenty of others, I think.
'Contact', by Fredric Brown.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
R H Draney
>
>On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:56:45 -0800 (PST), cryptoguy
><treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>OK, what stories can we remember that involve a Earthian Invasion of
>>Mars? Lets restrict it to ones where Mars had a sentient native
>>population.
>>
>>'A Martian Odyssey'
>>'The Martian Chronicles'
>>
>>...there are plenty of others, I think.
>
>'Contact', by Fredric Brown.
"Stranger in a Strange Land", although the "invasion" had a different
outcome....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Strobe
talk-o...@moderators.isc.org <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
...
>Is _Edison's Conquest of Mars_ the first? And in the movies, _Flash
>Gordon's Trip to Mars_, may not be.
>
>I have a feeling that many U.S.-written stories felt entitled to
>present human-colonised Mars with the marsies second-class citizens at
>best on their own planet, without much explanation.
>I wonder what was the inspiration for that..
Probably an awareness of the actual history of their own ancestors.
Angle, Jute and Saxon invasions of Brit Isles, to detriment of Celts and Picts
Roman invasions of everyone.
Muslim invasion of Spain.
Norman conquest of England (by W the B).
English conquest of Ireland (by W of O).
Etcetera.
In fact, it's hard to think of _any_ case where the residents were happy with
the new visitors from outside their borders.
Although you can (and I often do) argue that the _long-term_ results were
often good for the majority (of the survivors).
Keith F. Lynch
> OK, what stories can we remember that involve a Earthian Invasion
> of Mars? Lets restrict it to ones where Mars had a sentient native
> population.
> 'A Martian Odyssey'
> 'The Martian Chronicles'
> ...there are plenty of others, I think.
H. Beam Piper's "Omnilingual" (though the Martians were extinct).
There was a short story, I forget who by, in which the first Mars
landing *causes* the Martians to become extinct, since they all
live in one small town, and the ship from Earth just happened to
land on top of them.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Keith F. Lynch
> Look, what is it about looking for vital drugs hidden in your rain
> forests and your coral reefs and your, your, your rapidly thawing
> tundra! Most living things' main voluntary input into the
> lifestyles of other types of living thing is to try to poison them.
It's not entirely a myth. Angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitors,
a category of blood pressure medicine, were inspired by the venom of a
tropical snake which caused the blood pressure of its victim to crash
to near zero.
> If you do find something useful then the intellectual property will
> belong to some grubby tribesmen ...
No, that's not how intellectual property works. If a doctor finds a
gene in you that cures cancer, and becomes a billionaire, he doesn't
owe you a nickel.
> But I think it's a hoax anyway. Some drug company invents a
> chemical and then they pretend it comes from the rain forest, so
> it's natural and it's all expensive and also they get to see their
> competitor sending researchers out to become mosquito food whilst
> trying to find their own good thing. It probably goes right back
> to aspirin and pren!tending that it came from chewing tree bark.
> And then watching the other guys going out to bite trees, ha ha ha!
How do we know that *you're* not the one misdirecting researchers?
Maybe drug companies bribed you to imply that useful medications come
from coal tar or something, so that competitors will waste their time
grubbing about in coal bins getting all dirty, and will ignore living
things such as poppies and hemp and belladonna, where drugs really
come from.
Don Aitken
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> OK, what stories can we remember that involve a Earthian Invasion
>> of Mars? Lets restrict it to ones where Mars had a sentient native
>> population.
>
>> 'A Martian Odyssey'
>> 'The Martian Chronicles'
>
>> ...there are plenty of others, I think.
>
>H. Beam Piper's "Omnilingual" (though the Martians were extinct).
>
>There was a short story, I forget who by, in which the first Mars
>landing *causes* the Martians to become extinct, since they all
>live in one small town, and the ship from Earth just happened to
>land on top of them.
That's the one I mentioned; Fredric Brown's "Contact".
Walter Bushell
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> No, that's not how intellectual property works. If a doctor finds a
> gene in you that cures cancer, and becomes a billionaire, he doesn't
> owe you a nickel.
And that is just a result of the golden rule.
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:26:33 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc
>
>
> ...
>
> >Is _Edison's Conquest of Mars_ the first? And in the movies, _Flash
> >Gordon's Trip to Mars_, may not be.
>
> >I have a feeling that many U.S.-written stories felt entitled to
> >present human-colonised Mars with the marsies second-class citizens at
> >best on their own planet, without much explanation.
> >I wonder what was the inspiration for that..
>
> Probably an awareness of the actual history of their own ancestors.
>
> Angle, Jute and Saxon invasions of Brit Isles, to detriment of Celts and Picts
> Roman invasions of everyone.
> Muslim invasion of Spain.
> Norman conquest of England (by W the B).
> English conquest of Ireland (by W of O).
> Etcetera.
>
> In fact, it's hard to think of _any_ case where the residents were happy with
> the new visitors from outside their borders.
>
> Although you can (and I often do) argue that the _long-term_ results were
> often good for the majority (of the survivors).
That's also true of the Black Death. And, it's been argued (is this
one of yours?), the slave trade.
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
> Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-orig...@moderators.isc. or\255g <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
> > If you do find something useful [in the rainforest] then the
> > intellectual property wil belong to some grubby tribesmen ...
>
> No, that's not how intellectual property works. If a doctor finds a
> gene in you that cures cancer, and becomes a billionaire, he doesn't
> owe you a nickel.
Not so by <http://www.rain-tree.com/comerce2.htm>
[sic: maybe the file name is on a system with an effective 8.3
characters limit].
Cheryl
So, war, disease and other causes of suffering are often followed by
improvements (for the survivors, naturally). I'd think that was an
extremely common scenario, and not just because once you've survived a
flood or being sold into slavery almost anything looks better than the
immediate past - if not for you, than for your grandchildren.
There are more jobs and fewer people competing for them after most
disasters, not to mention tons of business opportunities, some of them
possibly legal. Deciding to improve a city by widening the roads or
building decent buildings where slums used to be is practically
universal after a major fire or flood. And a lot of people vote with
their feet if they can - fleeing the local disaster area so that they
and their children will have a better life elsewhere.
When things really go wrong, I prefer to think of the positive side
myself, once I've calmed down a bit, anyway - i guess I'm more of a
glass-half-full person, and anyway, I've never encountered a tragedy
that's been eased by brooding on it.
--
Cheryl
cryptoguy
> Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-orig...@moderators.isc. or\255g <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> > Look, what is it about looking for vital drugs hidden in your rain
> > forests and your coral reefs and your, your, your rapidly thawing
> > tundra! Most living things' main voluntary input into the
> > lifestyles of other types of living thing is to try to poison them.
>
> It's not entirely a myth. Angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitors,
> a category of blood pressure medicine, were inspired by the venom of a
> tropical snake which caused the blood pressure of its victim to crash
> to near zero.
The thing is, critters and plants have an evolutionary drive to create
biologically active chemicals; it takes a lot less energy to make 1
milligram of a highly poisonous substance than 1 gram of a less
poisonous one. If the poison means that predators leave you alone, its
a win.
Nature has had a very, very long time to develop interesting, highly
active biochemicals. We've been at it less than a century. It makes
sense to check the prior research when looking for new biochemicals.
A good example is taxol, which was originally isolated from the
Pacific Yew in the NW US.
pt
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
There's a huge set of examples. Hell, caffeine, adrenalin/epinephrine,
digitalis, atropine, etc., etc., some ancient, some more recent. Sure,
*IF* we knew the right design we could probably make it from scratch,
but when there are virtually unlimited numbers of possible chemicals to
explore, it's knowing which ones to try that's the key.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Howard Brazee
stockyards. Blood.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Louann Miller
news:0uhog5h8lvjl57uso...@4ax.com:
> We waste a tremendous amount of a very nutritious food in our
> stockyards. Blood.
Doesn't it wind up in dog food or some such?
Don Freeman
Keith F. Lynch
> Plant fertilizer. Blood meal, very good stuff.
Wouldn't it cause salt to build up in the soil?
Don Freeman
> Don Freeman <free...@cosmoslair.com> wrote:
>> Plant fertilizer. Blood meal, very good stuff.
>
> Wouldn't it cause salt to build up in the soil?
Never heard of that being a problem, but since blood meal is so high in
nitrogen you would probably burn the plant before the sodium became a
consideration.
--
-Don
Keith F. Lynch
> So, war, disease and other causes of suffering are often followed by
> improvements (for the survivors, naturally). I'd think that was an
> extremely common scenario, and not just because once you've survived
> a flood or being sold into slavery almost anything looks better than
> the immediate past - if not for you, than for your grandchildren.
S.M. Stirling -- the author whose mention started this crossposted
thread -- depicted a near future in which electricity, explosives,
firearms, internal combustion engines, and steam engines suddenly,
unexpectedly, and permanently stop working. The vast majority of
people soon die of thirst, starvation, uncontrollable fires, lack of
medical care, or complete civil breakdown. Many are butchered and
eaten by cannibals. The few survivors have to work very hard for
very little. In return for twelve hours a day of back-breaking heavy
farm labor, they get such "luxuries" as barely enough to eat, and
a lukewarm shower once a week. And a near certainty of having
everything stolen from them unless they spend several hours a day
practicing archery and swordplay, and march off to war for their
king against a rival king, with a high likelihood of not surviving
the battles.
And Stirling gives every impression that he thinks this change in
society would be a *good* thing.
Keith F. Lynch
Unless most of the water that lands on the soil runs off, salt will
gradually accumulate and never go away. I believe that that's what
doomed many early civilizations that relied on irrigation systems
rather than on abundant rainfall.
Don Freeman
> Don Freeman <free...@cosmoslair.com> wrote:
>> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>>> Don Freeman <free...@cosmoslair.com> wrote:
>>>> Plant fertilizer. Blood meal, very good stuff.
>
>>> Wouldn't it cause salt to build up in the soil?
>
>> Never heard of that being a problem, but since blood meal is so high
>> in nitrogen you would probably burn the plant before the sodium
>> became a consideration.
>
> Unless most of the water that lands on the soil runs off, salt will
> gradually accumulate and never go away. I believe that that's what
> doomed many early civilizations that relied on irrigation systems
> rather than on abundant rainfall.
In potted plants maybe, but in ground soil salt will leach down below
the root stock and then into the water table, not that that is a good
thing, but better sodium then the non-organic chemicals used for fertilizer.
Gypsum is often used to help in desalination of soil if it does become a
problem. Most water supplies contain some degree of salt and if it did
keep building up without leaching there would be a lot of useless soil.
--
-Don
Canth
<free...@cosmoslair.com> wrote:
Salt from ground water is a significant & persistent problem in many
parts of Australia.
Soil salinity is a form of land degradation characterised by
increasing concentrations of salt in the soil. It is often first
noticed as isolated waterlogged areas, patches of dying trees or other
vegetation, crop failure, or changes in the types of plants growing in
an area. Both dryland and irrigation salinity are caused by rising
groundwater levels carrying salt towards the soil surface and into the
plant root zone.
http://www.land.murdoch.edu.au/salinitycontrol.html
http://www.envcomm.act.gov.au/soe/soe2004/Ind/landdegradation.htm
http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/vro/malregn.nsf/pages/mallee_landwtrmgmt_degrad
http://soer.justice.tas.gov.au/2009/copy/56/index.php
AS! ds++:+++ a++ c+++ p++ t+ f-- S+ p+ e++ h++ r++ n++ i+ P+ m++ M
John F. Eldredge
In what is now Iraq, there are salt flats that were once fields. The
local farming depends in large part upon irrigation tunnels that were
dug, centuries ago, to bring water from mountain snow-melt down onto the
plains. Many of the original fields are now so salty that not even weeds
will grow in them.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
Hmm. I was writing kinda tongue inn cheek but /are/ these mostly
poisons? I didn't mean that was what we /should/ use natural
resources for. (Hey! Ricin!)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Atropine: Deadly Nightshade
Digitalis: Foxglove plant. Other heart-affecting drugs such as Ouabain
(subject of my father's doctoral work many years ago) also come from
plant sources. These are very much plant toxins of quite lethal sorts.
Adrenaline/Epinephrine: Adrenalin/e itself comes from animal sources,
the Ephedra shrub gives ephedrine which is chemically related. Dunno if
it's MEANT to kill people, but it's certainly able to.
Caffeine (and theobromine and theophylline) come from plant sources.
They are alkaloids and presumably poisonous to some things that the
plant doesn't want around it.
Ricin itself doesn't have a specific medicinal use at this time.
However, botulinum A toxin -- the most deadly substance known to man,
with an LD-50 appropriately measurable in picograms per kilogram -- is
currently used for both the treatment of some muscle spasms and for
smoothing out wrinkles (as "Botox").
Taxol (now stupidly renamed due to legal issues to something like
"paclitaxel"), derived from the yew tree, is a nasty poison in the
natural world, but is currently a quite effective anticancer agent.
Hell, just look up "alkaloid" on Wiki; it gives a quite nice list of
many different alkaloids and their classifications. Most, if not all, of
these are of plant origin and are toxins used probably for protection of
the plant in nature -- and can and do kill people in many cases. At the
same time, a quite significant number of them have medical uses.
This strongly supports the idea that the vast number of chemical
compounds that may be found in rainforest flora could, and probably do,
include a large number of potentially medicinally useful compounds.
cryptoguy
> >>>> Plant fertilizer. Blood meal, very good stuff.
>
> >>> Wouldn't it cause salt to build up in the soil?
>
> >> Never heard of that being a problem, but since blood meal is so high
> >> in nitrogen you would probably burn the plant before the sodium
> >> became a consideration.
>
> > Unless most of the water that lands on the soil runs off, salt will
> > gradually accumulate and never go away. I believe that that's what
> > doomed many early civilizations that relied on irrigation systems
> > rather than on abundant rainfall.
>
> In potted plants maybe, but in ground soil salt will leach down below
> the root stock and then into the water table, not that that is a good
> thing, but better sodium then the non-organic chemicals used for fertilizer.
It depends on the relative amount of water that is lost due to runoff
and soaking down into the water table, vs the amount lost of
evaporation.
pt
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>> We waste a tremendous amount of a very nutritious food in our
>> stockyards. Blood.
>
>Doesn't it wind up in dog food or some such?
For various values of "waste".
Hatunen
<free...@cosmoslair.com> wrote:
>Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> Don Freeman <free...@cosmoslair.com> wrote:
>>> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>>>> Don Freeman <free...@cosmoslair.com> wrote:
>>>>> Plant fertilizer. Blood meal, very good stuff.
>>
>>>> Wouldn't it cause salt to build up in the soil?
>>
>>> Never heard of that being a problem, but since blood meal is so high
>>> in nitrogen you would probably burn the plant before the sodium
>>> became a consideration.
>>
>> Unless most of the water that lands on the soil runs off, salt will
>> gradually accumulate and never go away. I believe that that's what
>> doomed many early civilizations that relied on irrigation systems
>> rather than on abundant rainfall.
>
>In potted plants maybe, but in ground soil salt will leach down below
>the root stock and then into the water table, not that that is a good
>thing, but better sodium then the non-organic chemicals used for fertilizer.
Not in the desert for the most part. Out here the annual
evaporation rate is much higher than the annual precipitation,
and water used for irrigation tends to stay where it was put. But
irrigated fields in the desert have sump ponds to collect the
salty water; in California's Imperial Valley the sump to collect
salty runoff is the Salton Sea, much to the detriment of that
accidental lake.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Keith F. Lynch
> Ricin itself doesn't have a specific medicinal use at this time.
> However, botulinum A toxin -- the most deadly substance known to man,
> with an LD-50 appropriately measurable in picograms per kilogram -- is
> currently used for both the treatment of some muscle spasms and for
> smoothing out wrinkles (as "Botox").
A friend of mine asserted that botulinum toxin has a lower LD-50 than
antimatter. This turns out not to be the case, but it is within one
order of magnitude, which I found very surprising.
cryptoguy
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> > Ricin itself doesn't have a specific medicinal use at this time.
> > However, botulinum A toxin -- the most deadly substance known to man,
> > with an LD-50 appropriately measurable in picograms per kilogram -- is
> > currently used for both the treatment of some muscle spasms and for
> > smoothing out wrinkles (as "Botox").
>
> A friend of mine asserted that botulinum toxin has a lower LD-50 than
> antimatter. This turns out not to be the case, but it is within one
> order of magnitude, which I found very surprising.
That is a cool factoid. How is the number for antimatter established?
pt
Dimensional Traveler
--
"Dude. They've gone fractal."
David Goldfarb
At a guess, by working out how much gamma radiation a given amount
of antimatter would become after annihilation, and using figures
for radiation absorption.
--
David Goldfarb |"I'm reconsidering my desire to go to college, as
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | from what I've seen on this group it drives one
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | immediately and incurably insane."
| -- ACM, on rec.arts.comics.xbooks
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Someone set him up the antimatter bomb!
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> In article <b1632747-aa8e-4d07...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 25, 8:43 pm, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>> A friend of mine asserted that botulinum toxin has a lower LD-50 than
>>> antimatter. This turns out not to be the case, but it is within one
>>> order of magnitude, which I found very surprising.
>> That is a cool factoid. How is the number for antimatter established?
>
> At a guess, by working out how much gamma radiation a given amount
> of antimatter would become after annihilation, and using figures
> for radiation absorption.
>
Do they take into account genetic factors that may transform you into
something large and green instead?
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Ricin itself doesn't have a specific medicinal use at this time.
I thought they added it to breakfast cereal? :-)
Charles Wm. Dimmick
Oh, you mean Quaker Puffed Ricin. Yeah, I likea that too.
Walter Bushell
<b3900121-0d20-43e8...@x31g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-o...@moderators.isc.or�g
Sugar is sufficient albeit slower.
--
A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.
Dimensional Traveler
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
That was a political cartoon I saw back in the Reagan era. "There are
two kinds of matter: matter and doesn't matter..."
R H Draney
I wonder if telekinetics in parallel universes practice antimind over
antimatter....
R H "or should that be *under* antimatter?" Draney
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Strobe
talk-o...@moderators.isc.org <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Nov 24, 2:20 am, Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:26:33 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc
>>
>> talk-orig...@moderators.isc.org <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>> >Is _Edison's Conquest of Mars_ the first? And in the movies, _Flash
>> >Gordon's Trip to Mars_, may not be.
>>
>> >I have a feeling that many U.S.-written stories felt entitled to
>> >present human-colonised Mars with the marsies second-class citizens at
>> >best on their own planet, without much explanation.
>> >I wonder what was the inspiration for that..
>>
>> Probably an awareness of the actual history of their own ancestors.
>>
>> Angle, Jute and Saxon invasions of Brit Isles, to detriment of Celts and Picts
>> Roman invasions of everyone.
>> Muslim invasion of Spain.
>> Norman conquest of England (by W the B).
>> English conquest of Ireland (by W of O).
>> Etcetera.
>>
>> In fact, it's hard to think of _any_ case where the residents were happy with
>> the new visitors from outside their borders.
>>
>> Although you can (and I often do) argue that the _long-term_ results were
>> often good for the majority (of the survivors).
>That's also true of the Black Death. And, it's been argued (is this
>one of yours?), the slave trade.
The depopulation of Europe by the Black Death led to social changes that
were the basis for the end of feudal society - and thus led to civilisation
as we now know it.
The slave trade had negative benefits for _most_ of the slaves (those
enslaved by their African neighbors or taken to slave-owning Muslim
states, for example).
Incidentally, not only Africans were enslaved - Muslim slavers also kidnapped
slaves from England and other parts of Europe (also check reference to 'shores
of Tripoli' in the USMC hymn).
We know when the USA abolished slavery; according to Wiki
* 1942 Ethiopia abolishes slavery
* 1958 Bhutan abolishes slavery
* 1962 Saudi Arabia abolishes slavery
* 1963 United Arab Emirates abolishes slavery
* 1970 Oman abolishes slavery
* 1981 Mauritania abolishes slavery
Only the descendants of those slaves taken to America can see _any_ net
benefit, compared to their relatives who remained free in Africa.
Few of the Americans claiming slave ancestors would prefer to go and
live in the modern countries of those ancestors.
Whether the price paid by the victims of slavery or plague is worth
the benefits to their descendants is, of course, a separate question.
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
> In article
> <b3900121-0d20-43e8...@x31g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-o...@moderators.isc.or�g
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 25, 4:40�am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> > <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> > > Ricin itself doesn't have a specific medicinal use at this time.
> >
> > I thought they added it to breakfast cereal? :-)
>
> Sugar is sufficient albeit slower.
No, but they also provide iron, ricin, and niboflavin. Or something.
R H Draney
filted:>> Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-o...@moderators.isc.or=EF=BF=BDg
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Nov 25, 4:40=EF=BF=BDam, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> > <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> > > Ricin itself doesn't have a specific medicinal use at this time.
>> >
>> > I thought they added it to breakfast cereal? :-)
>>
>> Sugar is sufficient albeit slower.
>
>No, but they also provide iron, ricin, and niboflavin. Or something.
And Jerry Lewis provides your daily minimum requirement of froinlaivin....r
David DeLaney
> Robert Carnegie: <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> > Ricin itself doesn't have a specific medicinal use at this time.
>>
>> I thought they added it to breakfast cereal? :-)
>
>Sugar is sufficient albeit slower.
"but liquor is quicker"?
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dimensional Traveler
press a long, complicated paragraph long sentence that parses down to
"Yes, I lied to you."
Dimensional Traveler
> Dimensional Traveler filted:
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>> Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> cryptoguy wrote:
>>>>> On Nov 25, 8:43 pm, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>>>>>> A friend of mine asserted that botulinum toxin has a lower LD-50 than
>>>>>> antimatter. This turns out not to be the case, but it is within one
>>>>>> order of magnitude, which I found very surprising.
>>>>> That is a cool factoid. How is the number for antimatter established?
>>>>>
>>>> Very, very carefully?
>>>>
>>> Someone set him up the antimatter bomb!
>>>
>> Doesn't matter.
>
> I wonder if telekinetics in parallel universes practice antimind over
> antimatter....
>
> R H "or should that be *under* antimatter?" Draney
>
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
Is that the "inoperative statement" one?
I am not sure whether I remember Josiah Bartlett's press secretary in
_The West Wing_, C. J. Cregg, both lying to the press, and trying not
to do so by arranging not to be told the truth, and that may have
depended on who was writing the story that week. Or Sorkin or not-
Sorkin.
But anyway, I think it's in the job description.
Dimensional Traveler
I can't remember the whole thing. Part of it went something like "you
think you heard what I told you but what I told you is not what I said"
or something along those lines. I can't even remember enough of it
accurately to do a proper search for it.
Keith F. Lynch
> Whether the price paid by the victims of slavery or plague is worth
> the benefits to their descendants is, of course, a separate question.
Indeed. What unspeakable horror that may happen to us in the near
future might be considered a good thing many centuries from now?
Keith F. Lynch
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net>
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> Ricin itself doesn't have a specific medicinal use at this time.
>>> However, botulinum A toxin -- the most deadly substance known
>>> to man, with an LD-50 appropriately measurable in picograms per
>>> kilogram -- is currently used for both the treatment of some
>>> muscle spasms and for smoothing out wrinkles (as "Botox").
>> A friend of mine asserted that botulinum toxin has a lower LD-50
>> than antimatter. �This turns out not to be the case, but it is
>> within one order of magnitude, which I found very surprising.
> That is a cool factoid. How is the number for antimatter
> established?
Based on the resulting radiation exposure.
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
> Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com> wrote:
> > Whether the price paid by the victims of slavery or plague is worth
> > the benefits to their descendants is, of course, a separate question.
>
> Indeed. What unspeakable horror that may happen to us in the near
> future might be considered a good thing many centuries from now?
As with the Black Death - substantially reducing population, human
headcount, is pretty good for the survivors. We have AIDS, swine flu,
global warming, wars for oil, wars for water... a short while after
we run out of economic oil, we'll only be able to have ecologically
sustainable wars. How about that! Oil runs out, world peace. Or
close to. And, yeah, collapse of agriculture, everywhere famine.
Keith F. Lynch
>As with the Black Death - substantially reducing population, human
> ... a short while after we run out of economic oil, we'll only
> be able to have ecologically sustainable wars. How about that!
> Oil runs out, world peace.
Just like we had world peace during all the centuries before oil
was discovered?
Juho Julkunen
(k...@KeithLynch.net) says...
> Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-o...@moderators.isc. or\25g <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >As with the Black Death - substantially reducing population, human
> > ... a short while after we run out of economic oil, we'll only
> > be able to have ecologically sustainable wars. How about that!
> > Oil runs out, world peace.
>
> Just like we had world peace during all the centuries before oil
> was discovered?
ObSF: Frank Herbert's "Cease Fire".
--
Juho Julkunen
Mark Mitchell
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:26:33 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc
> talk-o...@moderators.isc.org <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>
>>Is _Edison's Conquest of Mars_ the first? And in the movies, _Flash
>>Gordon's Trip to Mars_, may not be.
>>
>>I have a feeling that many U.S.-written stories felt entitled to
>>present human-colonised Mars with the marsies second-class citizens at
>>best on their own planet, without much explanation.
>>I wonder what was the inspiration for that..
>
> Probably an awareness of the actual history of their own ancestors.
>
> Angle, Jute and Saxon invasions of Brit Isles, to detriment of Celts and Picts
> Roman invasions of everyone.
> Muslim invasion of Spain.
> Norman conquest of England (by W the B).
> English conquest of Ireland (by W of O).
> Etcetera.
>
> In fact, it's hard to think of _any_ case where the residents were happy with
> the new visitors from outside their borders.
>
ObPython: "Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine,
education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water
system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Mark
Dorothy J Heydt
"Yeah, but they made us PAY for it!!" ....
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Strobe
No problem.
I actually agree that many of the invasions were eventually beneficial.
(Of course, we'll never know what would have happened without those invasions.)
My point was confined by the word 'new' to the immediate impact of the incomers,
before any benefits could be seen. It took quite a while for Normans and
Saxons to become "the English".
I think that any permanent new regime would usually go through 3 phases -
resentment, toleration, appreciation.
Even when subjugation by force is feasible, getting accepted by the natives
is a lot cheaper - and can even be profitable, if you can turn them into a
willing and prosperous trading partner.
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
> Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-o...@moderators.isc. or\25g <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >As with the Black Death - substantially reducing population, human
> > ... a short while after we run out of economic oil, we'll only
> > be able to have ecologically sustainable wars. How about that!
> > Oil runs out, world peace.
>
> Just like we had world peace during all the centuries before oil
> was discovered?
Didn't have any "World Wars", apparently.
cryptoguy
>
> > >As with the Black Death - substantially reducing population, human
> > > ... a short while after we run out of economic oil, we'll only
> > > be able to have ecologically sustainable wars. How about that!
> > > Oil runs out, world peace.
>
> > Just like we had world peace during all the centuries before oil
> > was discovered?
>
> Didn't have any "World Wars", apparently.
Really? How about the Seven Years War? Involved all the major powers
of Europe, and fought across the globe - Europe, Africa, North and
South America, India, and the Philippines. 1754-1763 (yes, I know).
The French and Indian War was a sideshow of this conflict. Churchill,
among others, described it as the first 'world war'.
pt
Keith F. Lynch
World peace and world war aren't the only possible conditions.
If a bunch of people are running at you waving swords, it's small
consolation that it's perfectly peaceful a thousand miles away.
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
Doesn't seem to have caught on.
What were they fighting over if not oil? Territory? Slaves?
Dorothy J Heydt
Territory, in one form or another. Or territory's old friend,
dominance, as in who was going to be in charge of what.