Leeches as Current Medical Practice in LA
d...@delphi.com
had gone out style quite some time ago (around when barbers stopped practicing
surgery.) But every once in a while I would hear something sounding
suspiciously like a UL claiming that current medical science had yet to invent
anything as good as a leech for certain medical purposes. I always took this
with a grain of salt, until I saw the following article in today's paper
(if I read it, it MUST be true, right?). Reprinted from the New York Daily
News, Sunday, May 8, 1994:
DOCS REATTACH HER SEVERED SCALP
LOS ANGELES--Doctors combined microsurgery and leeches to reattach the skin and
hair of a woman who was scalped from her eyelids to the back of her neck by an
industrial blender. The accident at a packaging company threatened to leave
30-year-old Patsy Bogle disfigured. But doctors who performed the rare
operation said she would receiver with few visible signs of her injury.
Bogle, an employee at Ross Technical Associates of Monrovia, 20 miles east of
Los Angeles, said she was cleaning the blades of an industrial blender on
Tuesday when the machine caught her ponytail. She felt her head smash into
the machine. In an instant, her scalp was torn off from her eyelids to the back
of her neck.
[end of reprint]
While I don't doubt that this awful accident really did happen to the
unfortunate Ms. Bogle, the absence of any reference to leeches except in the
teaser paragraph leads me to wonder. Anyone out there on the left coast care
to track down the hospital and see if they really are using leeches??
-David S. Rose D...@delphi.com / 7671...@compuserve.com
David DeLaney
>Like most people, I had somehow assumed that the use of blood-sucking leeches
>had gone out style quite some time ago (around when barbers stopped practicing
>surgery.)
It did, actually; it's just come *back* into style recently.
But every once in a while I would hear something sounding
>suspiciously like a UL claiming that current medical science had yet to invent
>anything as good as a leech for certain medical purposes. I always took this
>with a grain of salt, until I saw the following article in today's paper
>(if I read it, it MUST be true, right?). Reprinted from the New York Daily
>News, Sunday, May 8, 1994:
[terrible horrible awful copyright violation deleted - ooooo!]
>While I don't doubt that this awful accident really did happen to the
>unfortunate Ms. Bogle, the absence of any reference to leeches except in the
>teaser paragraph leads me to wonder. Anyone out there on the left coast care
>to track down the hospital and see if they really are using leeches??
As Far As I Know, they really are using leeches in a certain number of
methods these days, mostly concerned with keeping the blood flowing to or
through a portion of the body. For example, if one's finger is severed and
reattached by skilled surgeons, one of the great dangers to the success of
the operation is the formation of blood clots therein, I'm told; however,
attaching a leech or three repeatedly for short periods keeps the blood
flowing through the finger until it decides to heal the blood vessels and
reduces the blood-clot problem quite nicely. Also good for reattaching
flaps of skin or certain, ahem, newsworthy organs recently titillating
Americans on many TV channels... The leech injects this natural
anti-coagulant, you see, which is free (well, modulo the cost of Purina
Leech Chow) and self-generating...
Dave "I don't think the concept of preventing heart attacks or strokes by
injecting leeches into the appropriate regions has caught on yet though"
DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IM(NS)HO; VRbeableDJK
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd for net.legends FAQ+miniFAQs; ftp: cathouse.org
Barbara Hamel
In a previous article, d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu (David DeLaney) says:
>As Far As I Know, they really are using leeches in a certain number of
>methods these days, mostly concerned with keeping the blood flowing to or
>through a portion of the body. For example, if one's finger is severed and
>reattached by skilled surgeons, one of the great dangers to the success of
>the operation is the formation of blood clots therein, I'm told; however,
>attaching a leech or three repeatedly for short periods keeps the blood
>flowing through the finger until it decides to heal the blood vessels and
>reduces the blood-clot problem quite nicely. Also good for reattaching
>flaps of skin or certain, ahem, newsworthy organs recently titillating
>Americans on many TV channels... The leech injects this natural
>anti-coagulant, you see, which is free (well, modulo the cost of Purina
>Leech Chow) and self-generating...
Leeches? Aren't we taking this "all natural" stuff a bit far? I have
a hard time picturing the doctors I know using anything but high-tech
injectible drugs on their patients. If blood clots are a concern, it's
fairly standard to inject a hospitalized patient with an anti-coagulant
a couple of times a day. The preferred method in these here parts is to
leave an IV site open for this purpose by creating a hep-lock. (A hep-lock
is a capped IV site that is first flushed with Heparin (sp?) before drugs
are injected there.) Once out of the hospital, the patient would go on
a course of oral anti-coagulants, probably Warfarin Sodium.
Somehow, Dave, I just can't see the average patient happily trotting
around the hospital with three leeches stuck to her arm instead of the more
socially-acceptable hep-lock. I mean, the average visitor is hard enough
on the patient as it is (they're all intensely morbid and glum) - why
would you want to give them something as icky as leeches to latch on to?
Yeah, I can just picture it. "Hi, Auntie Jean. Nice of you to drop by
for a visit. By the way, I'd like to introduce you to my little friends
here -- Moe, Larry and Curly." *scream!* *thud*
Barbara "are smelling salts provided along with the leeches?" Hamel
--
Barbara Hamel | Love is like a mushroom. You never know
ag...@freenet.carleton.ca | know if it's the real thing until it's
Ottawa, Canada | too late. - The Best Of Bridge
Jonathan Papai
On or about Mon, 9 May 1994 12:35:28 GMT
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Barbara Hamel) posted:
> are injected there.) Once out of the hospital, the patient would go on
> a course of oral anti-coagulants, probably Warfarin Sodium.
Was Warfarin originally an anti-coagulant, or
was it originally rat poison? I used it as
a rat poison long before ever hearing of its
use on humans.
Jon " _More_ is not necessarily better " Papai
--
It doesn't really matter, because if there's a high suicide rate
at McGill, then obviously God exists after all. - Daniel B. Case
James Nicoll + Jasmine
>
snip
>DOCS REATTACH HER SEVERED SCALP
>
>LOS ANGELES--Doctors combined microsurgery and leeches to reattach the skin and
>hair of a woman who was scalped from her eyelids to the back of her neck by an
>industrial blender. The accident at a packaging company threatened to leave
>30-year-old Patsy Bogle disfigured. But doctors who performed the rare
>operation said she would receiver with few visible signs of her injury.
>Bogle, an employee at Ross Technical Associates of Monrovia, 20 miles east of
>Los Angeles, said she was cleaning the blades of an industrial blender on
>Tuesday when the machine caught her ponytail. She felt her head smash into
>the machine. In an instant, her scalp was torn off from her eyelids to the back
>of her neck.
[Leech technology saves the day]
There's a character in a Robertson Davies novel who could have
benefited from leech-tech. According to Davies, there was a fad in Canada
about the turn of the century for black hats with a white stripe down
the middle. Alas, the occasional overflying owl would mistake that style
of hat for a skunk, and would swoop down and carry off the hat and a
considerable portion of scalp as well. The character in question had been
snatched bald-headed prior to the events in the book. I've always
wondered whether or not Davies made that bit about owls attacking
hats up, or if it were based on real events about 1900.
Of course to reattach, you have to recover the scalp from the owl,
who might be grumpy about that. I once came across a nest of baby owls,
and while they were very cute, they also had veeeery sharp looking beaks,
which they kept snapping at me with about the same sound of a small-caliber
pistol, a general look about them as if they had just mainlined a liter of
amphetamines, and I had absolutely *no* desire to try to pet the wee beasties
[Petting the wildcat was a bad enough idea, and I learned from that].
James Nicoll
--
"Your weapons are no match for ours! People of Mars, surrender!"
"Um, this isn't Mars. This is Earth." "Earth? Earth-with-nuclear-
weapons Earth?" "Yes." [long pause] "Friend!"
Barbara Hamel
In a previous article, PA...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan Papai) says:
>ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Barbara Hamel) posted:
>> are injected there.) Once out of the hospital, the patient would go on
>> a course of oral anti-coagulants, probably Warfarin Sodium.
>
> Was Warfarin originally an anti-coagulant, or
> was it originally rat poison? I used it as
> a rat poison long before ever hearing of its
> use on humans.
Damned if I know if it was ever used as a rat poison. I'm familiar with
it only as an anti-coagulant. Warfarin Sodium is the generic name, but
it's marketed as Carfin, Coumadin, Panwarfin and Sofarin. Interestingly
enough, my pill book (1992 edition) also states it was under investigation
at that time to see if it would reduce the risk of recurring heart attack
or stroke. Also mentioned was that it might also be of benefit in the
treatment of lung cancer.
But I like the rat poison idea, Jon. Might be an effective way to thin
out some of the new blood around here....
Barbara "then we could all have Kentucky Fried Newbie!" Hamel
Jonathan Papai
On or about Mon, 9 May 1994 17:46:57 GMT
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Barbara Hamel) posted:
>
> But I like the rat poison idea, Jon. Might be an effective way to thin
> out some of the new blood around here....
I wonder a newly-minted old-r^Hhat would have to say about that?
> ( )_( )
> \. ./
> _=.=_
> " -- ?????????????
Jon " damned murderous Canadiens " Papai
Jim Grubs, W8GRT
d...@delphi.com writes:
> Like most people, I had somehow assumed that the use of blood-sucking leeches
> had gone out style quite some time ago (around when barbers stopped practicin
> surgery.) But every once in a while I would hear something sounding
> suspiciously like a UL claiming that current medical science had yet to inven
> anything as good as a leech for certain medical purposes.
I saw a story on CNN some months ago about the modern medical
use of leeches. I don't recall the technical reason WHY they
were using them, but they showed pictures of them being used.
YECH!!
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| Jim Grubs, W8GRT Voxbox Enterprises Tel.: 419/882-2697 |
| jgr...@voxbox.norden1.com 6817 Maplewood Ave. |
| Fido: 1:234/1.0 Sylvania, Ohio 43560 |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Barbara Hamel
In a previous article, PA...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan Papai) says:
>ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Barbara Hamel) posted:
>>
>> But I like the rat poison idea, Jon. Might be an effective way to thin
>> out some of the new blood around here....
>
>I wonder a newly-minted old-r^Hhat would have to say about that?
But is he a hardened old hat? (Of course that would be academic if we fed
him enough Warfarin to encourage rigor mortis to set in.)
>
>> ( )_( )
>> \. ./
>> _=.=_
>> " -- ?????????????
>
>Jon " damned murderous Canadiens " Papai
Barbara "the only thing Canadians kill is time" Hamel
James Nicoll + Jasmine
Barbara Hamel <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
On warfarin:
>Damned if I know if it was ever used as a rat poison. I'm familiar with
>it only as an anti-coagulant. Warfarin Sodium is the generic name, but
>it's marketed as Carfin, Coumadin, Panwarfin and Sofarin. Interestingly
>enough, my pill book (1992 edition) also states it was under investigation
>at that time to see if it would reduce the risk of recurring heart attack
>or stroke. Also mentioned was that it might also be of benefit in the
>treatment of lung cancer.
Veering off into the realm of wargasses later used for Good
Purposes:
If memory serves, some chemicals used to treat cancer are derived
from mustard gas. In WWII, a US ship was used to transport mustard gas
to an Italian port, Just In Case, and the Nazis sank the ship in port.
This left a large number of US personel bobbing about in a bay filled with
mustard gas [It also killed an unknown number of Italians]. Track was
kept of the survivors, to see what the long-term effects of being
immersed in mustard-gas-soup are, and it was noticed that they had
a lower rate of cancer than the general population did.
kei...@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
> Reprinted from the New York Daily News, Sunday, May 8, 1994:
>
> DOCS REATTACH HER SEVERED SCALP
>
> LOS ANGELES--Doctors combined microsurgery and leeches to reattach the skin and
> hair of a woman who was scalped from her eyelids to the back of her neck by an
> industrial blender. The accident at a packaging company threatened to leave
> While I don't doubt that this awful accident really did happen to the
> unfortunate Ms. Bogle, the absence of any reference to leeches except in the
> teaser paragraph leads me to wonder. Anyone out there on the left coast care
> to track down the hospital and see if they really are using leeches??
Don't know about this particular case, but it's probably true.
Leeches for use in microvascular surgery are now common. When the
leech bites someone it secretes a substance into the victim which
prevents blood from coagulating in the capillaries it is drinking from
(leeches have small mouths, and attach themselves to small surface
vessels). This is very useful in microsurgery, where it is important
to keep blood flowing through small vessels after they have been sewn
back together (damage to the vessel walls and the general disruption
of circulation in the area would otherwise tend to cause clotting at
the connection site, blocking blood flow to the tissue in that area
and causing the reattachment or whatever to fail). Docs sew the
vessels together under magnification, then stick a leech on the site
for a while until the vessels have healed together.
They are common leeches (don't know what species), but are bred and
supplied by scientific supply companies - they don't just scoop 'em up
from a swamp.
Kevin "Dr. Hickey" T. Keith
denn...@delphi.com
And I wasn't even going to check this thread, since I'm something
of a leech myself.
These days wrat poison is not in good repute. You practically need
a EPA impact statement in order to place it -- not to mention
the threat to any breed of dog more stupid than a *.mensa poster.
Plus, wrats have developed the instinct to know when they are being
trolled^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hbaited. No, these days the preferred method
of getting rid of wrats is as follows:
1. offer them an early retirement package so good that
they can't refuse;
2. after they've retired, use their pension capital to buy
out the building they work in -- the one which is in a
mortgage red zone, requires extensive modernization,
and is of little interest to real buyers. Oh, but
remember to sell the buil;ding to the pension fund at a
price which is not only outrageous for the value, but
will also make your quarterly earnings inflated to the point
that you can exercise your stock options;
3. for those wrats who survive step 2, cut back on their
retiree health plan benefits to the point where the
aches and ills of normal wrat aging are no longer
covered.
4. invest what you've gotten in the commodities market where
favored investors can obtain 10,000-to-1 returns.
5. or a savings-and-loan.
Why, those little wrats will not even know what hit them!
t "you could also force them to drive Checy pickups" c
--- try again ---
t "you could also force them to drive Chevy pickups" c
--
( )_( )
\. ./
_=.=_
Valarie Cook
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Barbara Hamel) writes:
>
>
>In a previous article, d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu (David DeLaney) says:
>
>>As Far As I Know, they really are using leeches in a certain number of
>>methods these days, mostly concerned with keeping the blood flowing to or
>>through a portion of the body. For example, if one's finger is severed and
>>reattached by skilled surgeons, one of the great dangers to the success of
>>the operation is the formation of blood clots therein, I'm told; however,
>>attaching a leech or three repeatedly for short periods keeps the blood
>>flowing through the finger until it decides to heal the blood vessels and
>>reduces the blood-clot problem quite nicely. Also good for reattaching
>>flaps of skin or certain, ahem, newsworthy organs recently titillating
>>Americans on many TV channels... The leech injects this natural
>>anti-coagulant, you see, which is free (well, modulo the cost of Purina
>>Leech Chow) and self-generating...
>
>Leeches? Aren't we taking this "all natural" stuff a bit far? I have
>a hard time picturing the doctors I know using anything but high-tech
>injectible drugs on their patients. If blood clots are a concern, it's
>fairly standard to inject a hospitalized patient with an anti-coagulant
>a couple of times a day. The preferred method in these here parts is to
>leave an IV site open for this purpose by creating a hep-lock. (A hep-lock
>is a capped IV site that is first flushed with Heparin (sp?) before drugs
>are injected there.) Once out of the hospital, the patient would go on
>a course of oral anti-coagulants, probably Warfarin Sodium.
Yeah, but the problem is, how do the high-tech anticoagulants get to the
site where they are needed? Leeches are used in cases where the blood
circulation is compromised by the injury, such as reattachment of
severed fingers. Their saliva contains an effective local
anticoagulant, and of course the saliva comes in a handy-dandy
self-injecting package (e.g.: the leech). Even if doctors could
overcome the technical problems associated with introducing a small dose
of this anticoagulant into the affected site (injections into your
newly-reattached whatevers, anyone?), in the immortal words of one of
the researchers finding new uses for old invertbrates, "it's not easy to
get a leech to spit."
They don't use it because it's natural; they use it because it works
better than the high-tech stuff in some limited situations.
>Somehow, Dave, I just can't see the average patient happily trotting
>around the hospital with three leeches stuck to her arm instead of the more
>socially-acceptable hep-lock. I mean, the average visitor is hard enough
>on the patient as it is (they're all intensely morbid and glum) - why
>would you want to give them something as icky as leeches to latch on to?
>
>Yeah, I can just picture it. "Hi, Auntie Jean. Nice of you to drop by
>for a visit. By the way, I'd like to introduce you to my little friends
>here -- Moe, Larry and Curly." *scream!* *thud*
>
>Barbara "are smelling salts provided along with the leeches?" Hamel
I heard about one kid, whose fingers were reattached, naming the leeches
applied to keep things moving. I don't know the names.
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Valarie Cook coo...@mail.auburn.edu 144 Parker Hall
Specialist, Computer Security Auburn University, AL 36849
University Computing 205-844-4512
***Just another traffic cop on the Information SuperHighway***
These opinions are not necessarily shared by the writer's employer.
_____________________________________________________________________
Ad absurdum per aspera
ObUL: Warfarin -- the stuff that makes rats and whoever else
eats it die from hemorrhage -- was developed with the support
of, and named after, the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation.
Fact or folklore?
Read this in an article on reloading handgun ammo; the author
was unhappy about the introduction of Warfarin by the city
dump because he and his buddies had more fun with their own
Harlan Ellison-like way of keeping the rat population in check.
Joe "On the other hand, Warfarin doesn't riccochet" Chew
Andreas Bergstroem
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Barbara Hamel) writes:
> In a previous article, PA...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan Papai) says:
> >ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Barbara Hamel) posted:
>
> >> are injected there.) Once out of the hospital, the patient would go on
> >> a course of oral anti-coagulants, probably Warfarin Sodium.
> >
> > Was Warfarin originally an anti-coagulant, or
> > was it originally rat poison? I used it as
> > a rat poison long before ever hearing of its
> > use on humans.
>
> Damned if I know if it was ever used as a rat poison. I'm familiar with
> it only as an anti-coagulant. Warfarin Sodium is the generic name, but
> it's marketed as Carfin, Coumadin, Panwarfin and Sofarin. Interestingly
> enough, my pill book (1992 edition) also states it was under investigation
> at that time to see if it would reduce the risk of recurring heart attack
> or stroke. Also mentioned was that it might also be of benefit in the
> treatment of lung cancer.
Warfarin is used as a rat poison because it is an anti-coagulant. I
don't remember the complete explanation, and I can't find it in my
biology books, but I think the rats die by internal bleedings, since
they live quite violent lifes. I don't know which the original use was.
d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu (David DeLaney) wrote:
> As Far As I Know, they really are using leeches in a certain number of
> methods these days, mostly concerned with keeping the blood flowing to or
> through a portion of the body. For example, if one's finger is severed and
> reattached by skilled surgeons, one of the great dangers to the success of
> the operation is the formation of blood clots therein, I'm told; however,
> attaching a leech or three repeatedly for short periods keeps the blood
> flowing through the finger until it decides to heal the blood vessels and
> reduces the blood-clot problem quite nicely. Also good for reattaching
> flaps of skin or certain, ahem, newsworthy organs recently titillating
> Americans on many TV channels... The leech injects this natural
> anti-coagulant, you see, which is free (well, modulo the cost of Purina
> Leech Chow) and self-generating...
Actually, I read in my local paper about a man having a leech farm. He
said that they demanded lots of care, very special food and an exact
temperature regulation. He sold the leeches to hospitals all over
Europe, I think. (I was told so by my cousin's best friend's
ex-girlfriend's aunt, and she never lies, according to her husband.)
Andreas Bergstroem
Martin Schafer
>
>[end of reprint]
>
>While I don't doubt that this awful accident really did happen to the
>unfortunate Ms. Bogle, the absence of any reference to leeches except in the
>teaser paragraph leads me to wonder. Anyone out there on the left coast care
>to track down the hospital and see if they really are using leeches??
>
Some year ago in Technology Review there was an article about the
modern use of leeches. They are sometimes used in various reattachment
surgery (not Bobbit's that I've heard) to remove blood that collects in
the previously severed piece (arterial blood forces its way in, venous
blood has a hard time returning). They were also studying the
anticoagulants in leech saliva for possible medical use.
Martin
Camilla Cracchiolo
recall one article discussing the medical use of maggots in certain
kinds of wounds. They eat only the dead tissue, debriding the
skin and helping to prevent gangrene from setting in.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Camilla Cracchiolo, RN cam...@netcom.com Los Angeles, CA
Shrine of the Cybernetic Madonna BBS 213-766-1356
"The BBS for the information addict!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbara Hamel
In a previous article, cam...@netcom.com (Camilla Cracchiolo) says:
>Not only have I heard of leeches being used in microsurgery, I
>recall one article discussing the medical use of maggots in certain
>kinds of wounds. They eat only the dead tissue, debriding the
>skin and helping to prevent gangrene from setting in.
First leeches and now maggots? *shiver* Well, Camilla, if I ever have
necrotic tissue need of debriding, I certainly will insist on the standard
Eusol-and-gauze method. No maggots are going to get me before my time.
Barbara "I knew debride when she used to rock 'n roll" Hamel
Len Berlind
>FROM: denn...@delphi.com
Most excellent article, brother wrat. Now, if you tell me that the
double .sig below was thought out in advance, and not that you screwed
it up the first time, and then decided to leave it in, then I will bow
and doff my hat before an act of comic genius. If the latter is the
case, than all I can say is: "That was very effing funny".
>t "you could also force them to drive Checy pickups" c
>--- try again ---
>t "you could also force them to drive Chevy pickups" c
> " -- The last pickup I drove made me buy her dinner!
This, however, could use a little work.
David Greenbaum
>Not only have I heard of leeches being used in microsurgery, I
>recall one article discussing the medical use of maggots in certain
>kinds of wounds. They eat only the dead tissue, debriding the
>skin and helping to prevent gangrene from setting in.
When my father was completing his internship in Indiana,
a drunk derelict was brought into the ER during my father's
on-call hours. The fellow had fallen and gouged and scraped up his
leg very badly, and gangrene had set in. However, blowfly maggots
infested the wound, and debrided the necrotic tissue. The gangrene
had stopped spreading.
Three days on IV antibiotics, and a nice bandage, and the guy was out
drinking in a back alley near Oooey-Icky.(University of Indiana in
Bloomington)
Dave "Bet he didn't start naming the larvae while he was high" Greenbaum
--
*This .sig available by credit card or C.O.D. Call 800-238-9000 Today!*
jcor...@trentu.ca
involving reattaching bits. They keep circulation goin through the reattached
piece (not the same as anticoagulation, as the blood doesn't get returned)
until the vascular system restablishes itself. My wife is a nurse who has had
a number of these cases to deal with. Big problem is that the leeches
sometimes end up falling into the sheets. Very disgusting trying to find them.
James "not sure I wouldn't prefer just to lose the finger" Cormier
Articulate Mandible
[...]
>Joe "On the other hand, Warfarin doesn't riccochet" Chew
John Warfarin was my favorite character in "Buckaroo B."
--
Articulate Mandible
"Distinguishing between political parties on a basis of their respect for
rights is rather like distinguishing between motorcycle gangs on a basis
of their taste in beer." Doug Caprette
Sean Willard
|
| ObUL: Warfarin -- the stuff that makes rats and whoever else
| eats it die from hemorrhage -- was developed with the support
| of, and named after, the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation.
| Fact or folklore?
war . far . in n. A white crystalline compound, C19H16O4, that is used
as an anticoagulant. [W(isconsin) A(lumni) R(esearch) F(oundation) +
(coum)arin.]
-- American Heritage College Dic, 3rd edition.
Sean
Derek Tearne
>>ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Barbara Hamel) posted:
>
>>> are injected there.) Once out of the hospital, the patient would go on
>>> a course of oral anti-coagulants, probably Warfarin Sodium.
>>
>> Was Warfarin originally an anti-coagulant, or
>> was it originally rat poison? I used it as
>> a rat poison long before ever hearing of its
>> use on humans.
>
>Damned if I know if it was ever used as a rat poison. I'm familiar with
>it only as an anti-coagulant.
Definately used as a rat poison. It works on the premise that rats,
running around in that nasty environment that they do, will be constantly
getting small cuts and abrasions all over their bodies. Pump the beastie
full of anti coagulant and the slightest cut and it's bleed-to-deathsville
Arizona.
I can't imagine sitting down and saying "Let's think of a really neat
way to kill rats", "Yes, why don't we pump them full of anticoagulant
and let them bleed to death", "Yes, what a spiffing idea" and then
discovering warfarin.
No, I think it's much more likely that they synthesised it for medical
purposes and then went "This is a really good anti-coagulant, how can we
make lots of money from it", "Well, we can't charge a lot for it's medical
value because people will think we're nasty capitalists and force us to
sell it at a lower rate", "Yes, how else could we use it then", "I dunno,
perhaps we could use it as a rat poison".
Derek "And the rest, as they say, is history" Tearne
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Francis L. Bradham
> Not only have I heard of leeches being used in microsurgery, I
> recall one article discussing the medical use of maggots in certain
> kinds of wounds. They eat only the dead tissue, debriding the
> skin and helping to prevent gangrene from setting in.
>
mother (the vector) got into the parenting/vectoring bidness
she was a nurse (during what she calls the "dark ages," the
1950's). She told me about the use of maggots and it sounds
exactly like Camilla's description. Do they still do that?
ObJoke: My mother's favorite pun: "Two maggots eating in dead
earnest."
Bo "Wait a minute,Doc, you're prescribing _what_?" Bradham
Barbara Hamel
In a previous article, fl...@Virginia.EDU (Francis L. Bradham) says:
>cam...@netcom.com writes:
>> Not only have I heard of leeches being used in microsurgery, I
>> recall one article discussing the medical use of maggots in certain
>> kinds of wounds. They eat only the dead tissue, debriding the
>> skin and helping to prevent gangrene from setting in.
>>
>I didn't want to be the first to mention this, but... Before my
>mother (the vector) got into the parenting/vectoring bidness
>she was a nurse (during what she calls the "dark ages," the
>1950's). She told me about the use of maggots and it sounds
>exactly like Camilla's description. Do they still do that?
According to an article written by Carl Zimmer in the August 1993 issue
of _Discover_, maggot therapy is alive and wriggling. A surgeon at the
New York Medical College uses maggots to treat tumor-killed tissue and
certain burns in patients who would be endangered by surgery. Maggots
are also good for fighting bone infections and indeed have chalked up
a 90% success rate at this.
Only the right kind of maggots will do. Blowfly maggots devour dead tissue,
which makes them the only choice of discriminating wound care specialists.
Screwworm maggots eat live tissue, which means you should save them for
patients you *really* dislike.
As well as gobbling up necrotic tissue, maggots also excrete compounds
that are lethal to bacteria. Since they won't eat healthy flesh, they
give it a gentle and growth-stimulating massage by crawling over it on
their way to dinner.
Barbara "makes me squirm just to think about this" Hamel
--
Barbara Hamel | Trying to get a straight answer to my question,
ag...@freenet.carleton.ca | or even a discussion which doesn't deviate from
Ottawa, Canada | the subject, is about as rewarding as herding
| cats. - Donald Fisk
Lee Rudolph
>I can't imagine sitting down and saying "Let's think of a really neat
>way to kill rats", "Yes, why don't we pump them full of anticoagulant
>and let them bleed to death", "Yes, what a spiffing idea" and then
>discovering warfarin.
>No, I think it's much more likely that they synthesised it for medical
>purposes and then went "This is a really good anti-coagulant, how can we
>make lots of money from it", "Well, we can't charge a lot for it's medical
>value because people will think we're nasty capitalists and force us to
>sell it at a lower rate", "Yes, how else could we use it then", "I dunno,
>perhaps we could use it as a rat poison".
Well, maybe some Wisconsin Alumnus might know.
Since Warfarin seems to be (as I thought I remembered, and as Sean's
posted etymology seems to confirm) a derivative, or maybe just a purified
form, of coumarin, and since (as I'm sure I remember--so it's probably not
so) coumarin (and dicoumarin?) occur naturally when silage is improperly
cured, and can cause the death of cattle who eat the bad silage (though
they don't explode), it's not inconceivable to me that there's a history
of farmers observing farm rats suffering after getting into the bad
silage. And the rest, as they say, is almost baseless speculation.
Lee "we need a veterinarian ASAP" Rudolph
Paul Tomblin
In article <1994May12.0...@nezsdc.icl.co.nz>,
Derek Tearne <de...@nezsdc.icl.co.nz> wrote:
>I can't imagine sitting down and saying "Let's think of a really neat
>way to kill rats", "Yes, why don't we pump them full of anticoagulant
>and let them bleed to death", "Yes, what a spiffing idea" and then
>discovering warfarin.
If their thought processes had worked that way, we'd be setting out trays of
leaches in the attic, not warfarin.
I always thought that warfarin in its rat poision guise had ground glass
mixed with it to help the bleeding process get started?
True Story: When my mother was a hospital lab technician, one of her jobs
was to once a month take an expired unit of blood (too old to give to a
patient) and feed it to the leeches.
Paul "She didn't mention blowfly maggots" Tomblin
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Paul Tomblin, Freenet News screwup^H^H^H^H^H^H^HAdministrator
"MOVIE SIGN! We've got MOVIE SIGN!" - Joel "not Vicki" Robinson
If you quote Josh Munn's signature in a followup, you're a complete idiot.
Andy Wardley
[...unwanted article gobbled away...]
>
>As well as gobbling up necrotic tissue, maggots also excrete compounds
>that are lethal to bacteria. Since they won't eat healthy flesh, they
>give it a gentle and growth-stimulating massage by crawling over it on
>their way to dinner.
Just in case anyone hasn't heard of the practice and fancies getting
squirmed out, I thought I'd briefly mention the fisherman's practice of
keeping live maggots in their mouths to keep them warm before casting
them in.
I always thought this to be highly repulsive, but all the people I know
who do it think it's fine - "They're really clean, you know." Presumably,
their little disinfectant doo-doos are how they keep themselves hygienic.
Andy "chew, chump, munch, <swallow>" Wardley
This Spot Is Allowed whatever K says. Here, have some
Andy Wardley chocolate, it's Terry's. No smug bait for Derek. M#0
a...@oasis.icl.co.uk Badgers are your friends. OK, so they don't frink but
have you seen them forage? DAMN! I've run out of sp
Jack Campin
> Just in case anyone hasn't heard of the practice and fancies getting
> squirmed out, I thought I'd briefly mention the fisherman's practice of
> keeping live maggots in their mouths to keep them warm before casting
> them in.
> I always thought this to be highly repulsive, but all the people I know
> who do it think it's fine - "They're really clean, you know." Presumably,
> their little disinfectant doo-doos are how they keep themselves hygienic.
There were serious health warnings about this a few years ago. Apparently
fish prefer bronze-coloured grubs to ordinary white ones. So fishermen
soak their maggots in dye before putting them in their mouths. The dye is
a powerful carcinogen.
--
-- Jack Campin -- Room 1.36, Department of Computing & Electrical Engineering,
Mountbatten Building, Heriot-Watt University, Riccarton, Edinburgh EH14 4AS
TEL: 031 449 5111 ext 4195 HOME: 031 556 5272 FAX: 031 451 3431
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Derek Tearne
>
>
>In a previous article, cam...@netcom.com (Camilla Cracchiolo) says:
>
>>Not only have I heard of leeches being used in microsurgery, I
>>recall one article discussing the medical use of maggots in certain
>>kinds of wounds. They eat only the dead tissue, debriding the
>>skin and helping to prevent gangrene from setting in.
>
>First leeches and now maggots? *shiver* Well, Camilla, if I ever have
>necrotic tissue need of debriding, I certainly will insist on the standard
>Eusol-and-gauze method. No maggots are going to get me before my time.
You know, don't you, about the material grown from babies foreskins, used
to help with skin grafts?
Or the new development here in New Zealand which uses a special
guaze made from (I think) sea weed. Designed by a skin graft specialist
who was distraught at the amount of pain that skin graft donors had
to suffer while recovering (to say nothing of those _receiving_ the grafts).
The sea weed guaze is cheap there is a lot more seaweed about than there
are babies foreskins...
Derek "what about the medical use of brown recluse spiders?" Tearne