Jamie Lee Curtis, revisited.
David Brown
I'm not a regular here, but I was surfing around and found the
urbanlegends.com site. In looking through the FAQ, I see that the issue of
Jamie Lee Curtis being a hermaphrodite is proven false. That's correct.
However, during an endocrinology lecture I had in medical school (I'll
decline to say which one -- not sure if it could get them in trouble on the
basis of breaching patient confidentiality), we were given Jamie as an
example of testicular feminization syndrome.
Testicular feminization syndrome works like this: the patient is
genotypically male, i.e. has both an X and a Y chromosome. However,
elsewhere in the genome, there is a defect one of the genes that code for
production of the testosterone receptor. The severity of this defect is
what ultimately determines the phenotype (physical expression of the genetic
code.)
If the defect is on the severe end of the spectrum ("complete"), with
essentially no working testosterone/androgen receptors being produced, the
undescended, internal testicles generate huge amounts of testosterone, but
it is a signal never received by the differentiating cells of the developing
fetus.
The default pathway of primary sexual development is female. That is, if
you take an embryo and remove the effects of all sex hormones, the embryo
develops female external genitalia. So, in the absence of testosterone (or,
in this case, the absence of its receptor), _regardless_ of whether there
are ovaries to produce estrogen, the body develops as a female.
This is precisely the effect in testicular feminization syndrome -- there
are internal, undescended testes and no uterus, fallopian tubes, or ovaries,
but externally the labia, vagina, and clitoris all develop. Typically, the
labia and clitoris are indistinguishable from those of a normal (46,XX)
female, but the vagina is shorter than usual or sometimes absent. Breast
development is that of a normal woman, as are other sexual characteristics
of body habitus, such as pelvic shape. Axillary (armpit) and pubic hair are
markedly decreased or absent. TFS patients are, on average, taller than
46,XX women. Psychologic development is also feminine, including typical
maternal instincts. The overall incidence of *complete* TFS (i.e. no
significant androgen receptor function at all) is approximately 1 in 20,000.
So, IF Jamie Lee Curtis does indeed have TFS, it would be true that she is
*not* a hermaphrodite, but that wouldn't be the entire story. Externally
she would be unambiguously female, but genetically she would be, well, a
"he".
David J.V. "Really, I'm not making this up!" Brown, MD
Ulo Melton
>However, during an endocrinology lecture I had in medical school (I'll
>decline to say which one -- not sure if it could get them in trouble on the
>basis of breaching patient confidentiality), we were given Jamie as an
>example of testicular feminization syndrome.
Did the lecturer happen to mention how he/she came by this knowledge of
Jamie Lee Curtis's physiology?
>So, IF Jamie Lee Curtis does indeed have TFS, it would be true that she is
>*not* a hermaphrodite, but that wouldn't be the entire story.
IF your aunt did indeed have balls, it would be true that she is your
uncle.
--
Ulo Melton (melt...@sewergator.com)
http://www.sewergator.com - Your Pipeline to Adventure
HWM
Jamie Lee Curtis and a very good description of TFS
> genetically she would be, well, a "he".
[...]
What a pity she doesn't compete in the Olympics.
--
Cheers, | you first form into a line along the sea-shore,
HWM | when you've cleared all the jelly-fish out of
hen...@iobox.fi | the way, you advance twice, set to partners
http://www.kuru.da.ru | change lobsters, and retire in same order...
HWM
> IF your aunt did indeed have balls, it would be true that she is your
> uncle.
If you are AC-DC, you've got the biggest balls of them all...
SOCCERNUMB
>uncle.
>
>--
>Ulo Melton
Or your ball-bearing aunt
Don Del Grande
> David Brown wrote:
>> genetically she would be, well, a "he".
> What a pity she doesn't compete in the Olympics.
Actually, "XYs" have to compete as males. This is how they determine
your sex (I think they started doing it this way in 1972; certainly in
1976, when they made a relatively big deal about sex testing when HRH
Princess Anne was exempted from it).
At the 1964 Olympics, the Polish women's 4x100 relay team set a world
record, but three years later it was removed from the records when one
of the runners failed a chromosome test.
------------------------------------------
Don Del Grande, del_g...@netvista.net
It's too early in the morning to come up with a catchy .sig line...
HWM
>
> HWM wrote:
> > What a pity she doesn't compete in the Olympics.
>
> Actually, "XYs" have to compete as males. This is how they determine
> your sex (I think they started doing it this way in 1972; certainly in
> 1976, when they made a relatively big deal about sex testing when HRH
> Princess Anne was exempted from it).
That is exactly why I'd like to see Jamie Lee Curtis compete in the
Olympics.
After that we'd not get this old yarn every fortnight.
R H Draney
>
> That is exactly why I'd like to see Jamie Lee Curtis compete in the
> Olympics.
>
> After that we'd not get this old yarn every fortnight.
That takes care of *one* stupid UL...if only there were a definitive way
to lay rest to the Tabitha Soren one....r
--
My other tractor is a Hoyt-Clagwell
sidhe...@my-deja.com
HWM <henry.wEGGS_&_S...@iobox.fi> wrote:
> David Brown wrote:
> Jamie Lee Curtis and a very good description of TFS
>
> > genetically she would be, well, a "he".
> [...]
Here is the thing with that particular UL:
1) There are a certain set of physiological characteristics associated
with Testicular Feminization Syndrome (height, lean body mass (high
muscle-to-fat ratio), widely spaced breasts, flat nipples, broad ribcage
[I seem to recall one textbook referring to a "shield-shaped trunk"],
broad neck, more-than-average allotment of facial hair, distinctive
earlobe, and I think rudimentary finger/toe webbing?). In medical
school, students are instructed that those easily visible physiological
characteristics are often good "pointers" to a case of TFS.
2) Movie star Jamie Lee Curtis exhibits, larger-than-life and on our
movie screens, the above (well, not the webbing--and as for the facial
hair, remember her great scene in "A Fish Called Wanda" where she
lectured Kevin Kline on not being ridiculous while her top lip was
decorated with a white stripe of depilatory?).
3) Movie star Jamie Lee Curtis is an adoptive mom.
4) People who are reductive reasoners think that the above facts have
something to do with each other. They don't. There are lots of tall,
well-muscled women with broad ribcages who don't have TFS. Some of them
are even adoptive moms! This whole saga gets recycled and recycled just
because JLC happens to look like the "TFS profile."
It's ludicrous! Most family physicians couldn't diagnose a case of TFS
in their office, let alone from looking at someone on their TV set. Why
does anyone other than Ms. Curtis's physician think they have insight
into her genetic or physiological makeup?
Grrrr.
>
> What a pity she doesn't compete in the Olympics.
I would root for her.
Sidhedevil "big fan of the Baroness Haden-Guest" the She-Devil
>
> --
> Cheers, | you first form into a line along the sea-shore,
> HWM | when you've cleared all the jelly-fish out of
> hen...@iobox.fi | the way, you advance twice, set to partners
> http://www.kuru.da.ru | change lobsters, and retire in same order...
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Maggie Newman
>David Brown wrote:
>
>>However, during an endocrinology lecture I had in medical school (I'll
>>decline to say which one -- not sure if it could get them in trouble on the
>>basis of breaching patient confidentiality), we were given Jamie as an
>>example of testicular feminization syndrome.
>
>Did the lecturer happen to mention how he/she came by this knowledge of
>Jamie Lee Curtis's physiology?
>
here and report that they (or their daughter, sister, aunt, etc.) were
told in a lecture in medical school that JLC has Androgen Insensitivity
Syndrome (AIS).
Maggie "I wish these unprofessional, indiscreet, actionable lecturers
would just make up their damn minds" Newman
RKS1205
>example of testicular feminization syndrome.
>David J.V. "Really, I'm not making this up!" Brown, MD
Dr. Brown --
You have given a wonderful description of this disorder, however those in the
know (especially those with the disorder) much prefer the term Androgen
Insensitivity Syndrome.
Thanks --
Rebecca "Show me your phenotype and I will show you mine" Baughman
Judy Johnson
wrote:
>Hi all --
>
>I'm not a regular here, but I was surfing around and found the
>urbanlegends.com site. In looking through the FAQ, I see that the issue of
>Jamie Lee Curtis being a hermaphrodite is proven false. That's correct.
>
>However, during an endocrinology lecture I had in medical school (I'll
>decline to say which one -- not sure if it could get them in trouble on the
>basis of breaching patient confidentiality), we were given Jamie as an
>example of testicular feminization syndrome.
First of all, although I hope the regulars show some restraint in
this, be prepared for some potentially snippy responses.
We have, in fact, discussed this aspect of the JLC legend, and
actually, it is this that comes up most often. I seem to be unable to
get to the AFU archives at this moment, but I believe there are some
posts that reflect this. Deja Ptui is, unfortunately. still ptuied,
and, as such, useless for getting a better idea of our previous
discussions.
This little 'factoid' seems to be fairly well entrenched in college
level biology/genetics courses, and is due in part to one particular
article that claimed JLC had the condition. Before the article was
published, the author removed the reference because he was able to get
confirmation, but the version that included JLC made it out onto the
web. (Please take this with a big grain of salt, because I'm going
from memory, here. I strongly advise going to the AFU archives to be
sure.)
Short of confirmation direct from JLC herself, we have no way of
proving or disproving this legend. It appears that JLC has no wish to
discuss her medical history with the rest of the world, and she is
well within her rights to think this way. As such, many of us feel
that discussing it is, well, just plain tacky.
Judy "also consider the reliability of the sleazy doctor that would
breech doctor/patient confidentiallity to pass on this gossip" Johnson
RKS1205
>with Testicular Feminization Syndrome (height, lean body mass (high
>muscle-to-fat ratio), widely spaced breasts, flat nipples, broad ribcage
>[I seem to recall one textbook referring to a "shield-shaped trunk"],
>broad neck, more-than-average allotment of facial hair, distinctive
>earlobe, and I think rudimentary finger/toe webbing?). In medical
>school, students are instructed that those easily visible physiological
>characteristics are often good "pointers" to a case of TFS.
while many of those with this disorder do exhibit these characteristics, you
need to understand that overall we are indescernible from the general
population. In fact, I have Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrom (aka TFS)
and am 5 foot 2, 110 lbs and have a lean and trim ribcage. Many of those with
this disorder struggle with their weight in a horrible manner ( on both sides
of the spectrum -- from obese to anorexic). To further the point, as my body
is unable to react to testosterone at all, I have absolutely no facial hair,
ther is nothing distinctive about my earlobes and no, I don't have fingers or
toes like a duck!
>
>2) Movie star Jamie Lee Curtis exhibits, larger-than-life and on our
>movie screens, the above (well, not the webbing--and as for the facial
>hair, remember her great scene in "A Fish Called Wanda" where she
>lectured Kevin Kline on not being ridiculous while her top lip was
>decorated with a white stripe of depilatory?).
>
>3) Movie star Jamie Lee Curtis is an adoptive mom.
>
>4) People who are reductive reasoners think that the above facts have
>something to do with each other. They don't. There are lots of tall,
>well-muscled women with broad ribcages who don't have TFS. Some of them
>are even adoptive moms! This whole saga gets recycled and recycled just
>because JLC happens to look like the "TFS profile."
>
>It's ludicrous! Most family physicians couldn't diagnose a case of TFS
>in their office, let alone from looking at someone on their TV set. Why
>does anyone other than Ms. Curtis's physician think they have insight
>into her genetic or physiological makeup?
>
>Grrrr.
>
I have no knowledge as to whether Ms. Curtis has Androgen Insensitivity
Syndrome. I believe that this is her business and no one elses. True, I am
incredibly open with my diagnosis, but others would die before uttering this to
another soul. If you wish to learn about this disorder, and not merely
speculate as to the phenotype/genotype of Ms.Curtis, I suggest that you check
http://www.medhelp.org/www/ais
for much more complete information.
Also, I was in contact with Mr. Beeman some time ago as to whether or not he
received his information from a member of the AIS community, and this was his
reply...
Good day.
First, let me supply some background for you. I am a former English teacher
with a steadfast love of Urban Legends as a form of folklore. When searching
the Urbanlegends.com site recently I came across the article concerning Jamie
Lee Curtis, which includes a quote by you claiming to have learned of this
Urban Legend vis a vis members of the AIS community.
I am a woman with AIS, and am in touch with a great number of women with this
disorder. Upon passing this information on to the members of the AIS community
with whom I have daily contact, we began to wonder who would have vectored this
UL to you. Our main concern is one of privacy, for ourselves and any other
woman possessing this disorder. Many of us are concerned that women reading
this will not reach out for help from us. Who would want help from
blabbermouths?
True, most of us have been told that there are actresses and models with this
disorder. However, as a whole, if the doctor names names he/she will not see
their AIS patient again. It does not take a leap of logic to realize that if a
doctor plays fast and loose with this information, they may play fast and loose
with ours as well.
If you could, please prove to me that you received this information from a
member of the AIS community. I know that it sounds like a great deal of
trouble, but I am afraid that your quote on the UL board could do much greater
harm than good. If you cannot provide a name, perhaps get the informant in
touch with me. We are all terribly concerned about this.
Thank you,
Rebecca Baughman
RKS...@aol.com
He replied...
Please understand that the reference to JLC was published on the web by
mistake by the Baltimore Sun. It was in an original draft of the story, but
was deleted from the officially published version of this story. I could
not confirm that JLC has AIS to the level required by either my profession
or journalism. My original source was NOT a member of the AIS community,
but it was a third-hand source. JLC's publicists and lawyers flatly deny
that she has AIS.
I am sure that you see that the JLC reference was incidental to the point
of the article, and I am sad that virtually every inquiry I have gotten
about the article ignores its central message and hones in immediately on
the JLC question.
Bill Beeman
I wrote for permission to share the findings...
Thank you so much for the information...
I will openly admit that this UL has always made me ill. The truth is that
most of the women who have this disorder could do without the comments that
come with anyone vectoring this UL.
Do you mind if I share this letter with the staff at Urbanlegends.com so that
the quote can be modified?
Thank you,
Rebecca Baughman
And he replied...
You may indeed share this with your colleagues.
On a lighter note, I have another career as an opera singer, and am
currently portraying one of the real urban legends of history: Emperor
Norton
Thanks to any who made it to the end of this posting...
Rebecca Baughman
sidhe...@my-deja.com
smne...@gsbfac.uchicago.edu (Maggie Newman) wrote:
> Ulo Melton <melt...@sewergator.com> wrote:
> >David Brown wrote:
> >
> >>However, during an endocrinology lecture I had in medical school (I'll
> >>decline to say which one -- not sure if it could get them in trouble on the
> >>basis of breaching patient confidentiality), we were given Jamie as an
> >>example of testicular feminization syndrome.
> >
> >Did the lecturer happen to mention how he/she came by this knowledge of
> >Jamie Lee Curtis's physiology?
> >
> What's strange about this is that we've had more than one poster come
> here and report that they (or their daughter, sister, aunt, etc.) were
> told in a lecture in medical school that JLC has Androgen Insensitivity
> Syndrome (AIS).
Actually, the "profile" for AIS looks more like Christina Ricci, or maybe
Janeane Garofalo. I refuse to take any blame if this starts a rumor about
THEM as well.
Sidhedevil "endocrine and bear it" the She-Devil
>
> Maggie "I wish these unprofessional, indiscreet, actionable lecturers
> would just make up their damn minds" Newman
>
>
RKS1205
>Janeane Garofalo.
>Sidhedevil "endocrine and bear it" the She-Devil
Actually, the Typical woman with AIS looks more like the woman ahead of you in
the grocery store, beside you at the bus stop, in the desk next to yours at
work, your sister, aunt, cousin, the model in Vogue, or your child's nanny.
Cheers,
Rebecca Baughman
sidhe...@my-deja.com
only one general comment--I think that your story points out the danger
of medical students being given flippant shorthand "profiles" of
physiological characteristics associated with very complex syndromes. I
have heard "Jamie Lee Curtis" used as shorthand for the TFS "profile" by
a med-student friend, who heard it in a lecture, and I was then, and am
now, impatient with how that somehow translated into "knowledge" about
the real-life Ms. Curtis.
Your posting reminded me that the practice is even more dangerous...if
med students are inculcated with these superficial "profiles" they might
miss important diagnoses later in their lives as doctors.
Thanks again for your candor and expertise. And you are my heroine for
being an opera singer, too!
Sidhedevil "you meet some nice folks here on Usenet" the She-Devil
In article <20001028163558...@ng-fa1.aol.com>,
Robert Warinner
: I'm not a regular here, but I was surfing around and found the
: urbanlegends.com site. In looking through the FAQ, I see that the issue of
: Jamie Lee Curtis being a hermaphrodite is proven false. That's correct.
Um, not in the alt.folklore.urban FAQ:
U. Jamie Lee Curtis is a hermaphrodite.
T. Like with any celebrity, there are lots of rumors about her.
'U' means the veracity of the statement is unknown, possibly unknowable.
The FAQ is supported by the following two TAFKAC articles:
http://www.urbanlegends.com/celebrities/jlc.html
http://www.urbanlegends.com/celebrities/jlc_more.html
The long and short of it, as others have pointed out, is that those
who might know, namely JLC and her doctors, aren't talking and are
bound by medical confidentiality, and those that do make claims about
the state of JLC's chromosomes don't have any evidence to support their
claims.
Andrew "" Warinner
wari...@xnet.com
http://home.xnet.com/~warinner
Urban Legend Zeitgeist: http://www.urbanlegends.com/ulz/
hamilton
> >1) There are a certain set of physiological characteristics associated
> >with Testicular Feminization Syndrome (height, lean body mass (high
> >muscle-to-fat ratio), widely spaced breasts, flat nipples, broad ribcage
> >[I seem to recall one textbook referring to a "shield-shaped trunk"],
> >broad neck, more-than-average allotment of facial hair, distinctive
> >earlobe, and I think rudimentary finger/toe webbing?). In medical
> >school, students are instructed that those easily visible physiological
> >characteristics are often good "pointers" to a case of TFS.
>
> while many of those with this disorder do exhibit these characteristics, you
> need to understand that overall we are indescernible from the general
> population. In fact, I have Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrom (aka TFS)
> and am 5 foot 2, 110 lbs and have a lean and trim ribcage. Many of those with
> this disorder struggle with their weight in a horrible manner ( on both sides
> of the spectrum -- from obese to anorexic). To further the point, as my body
> is unable to react to testosterone at all, I have absolutely no facial hair,
> ther is nothing distinctive about my earlobes and no, I don't have fingers or
> toes like a duck!
a friend of mine has a daughter with this condition. she didn't know she
was a carrier -- but she does have 4 very tall rather masculine looking
aunts none of whom has ever had children -- her own baby was diagnosed
when what was thought to be a hernia turned out to be testicular tissue.
The daughter is a perfectly normal looking young woman now in her 20s -- I
think the webbing etc is associated with Turner's syndrome which is a sex
chromosomal defect -- XXX or XXY?
RKS1205
being an opera singer, too!
Sidhedevil "you meet some nice folks here on Usenet" the She-Devil
I am so sorry... That was the end of Mr. Beeman's last note to me... I cannot
carry a tune in a bag. Can I still be your hero(ine)?
Rebecca Baughman
RKS1205
>think the webbing etc is associated with Turner's syndrome which is a sex
>chromosomal defect -- XXX or XXY?
Bingo. Good Call!
Rebecca Baughman
sidhe...@my-deja.com
Agreed. I should have said "the superficial 'profile' often given by
uninformed or thoughtless people talking about this" looks more like,
etc., etc.
Thanks for contributing so much to this thread!
Sidhedevil "learning all the time" the She-Devil
>
> Cheers,
> Rebecca Baughman
sidhe...@my-deja.com
Yes, absolutely. The opera singing stuff was just a bonus (sorry, my
newsreader mussed the little > thingies up so couldn't tell who was
saying what).
Sidhedevil "maybe you need a bigger bag?" the She-Devil
sidhe...@my-deja.com
And now we all know why I am not a doctor.
Sidhedevil "what do you mean that wasn't the appendix?" the She-Devil
David and/or Jackie Laderoute
>>I
>>think the webbing etc is associated with Turner's syndrome which is a sex
>>chromosomal defect -- XXX or XXY?
>
>Bingo. Good Call!
Cancel that bingo. While _some_ Turner's Syndrome (aka Gonadal
Dysgenesis) women have webbing, not all do - and the webbing is normally
associated with the neck, not the digits. Oh, and Turner's is
characterized by a single X chromosome.
XXY genotypes (Klinefelter's Syndrome) present as sterile males (that Y
chromosome). XYY males and XXX females are usually normal in appearance
and fertility. These two genotypes have been vastly underreported
because of their outward normalcy; prenatal genetic testing have turned
up far more cases than were previously thought to occur.
One of the reasons I've always been amused by the exclusion of Princess
Anne from genetic testing for the Olympics is that, by that time, she
had already undergone two rather public pregnancies. Neither AIS or
Turner's syndrom would have accounted for that, so the chance that she
would test as anything other than an XX female (i.e an XXX female) was
infinitesimally small. The rationale for excluding her - or for getting
bent out of shape at that exclusion - seems ridiculous.
Jackie "most likely XX, but who knows?" Laderoute
--
< o \"/ Don't play cat and mouse with me! (
---@ ) ()-()
< o /"\ Jackie Laderoute ja...@baynet.net (o o)
********************************************************************/\o/\
Viv
:On Sat, 28 Oct 2000 01:55:32 -0500, "David Brown" <dj...@swbell.net>
:wrote:
:>
:>I'm not a regular here, but I was surfing around and found the
:>urbanlegends.com site. In looking through the FAQ, I see that the issue of
:>Jamie Lee Curtis being a hermaphrodite is proven false. That's correct.
:>
:>However, during an endocrinology lecture I had in medical school (I'll
:>decline to say which one -- not sure if it could get them in trouble on the
:>basis of breaching patient confidentiality), we were given Jamie as an
:>example of testicular feminization syndrome.
:This little 'factoid' seems to be fairly well entrenched in college
:level biology/genetics courses, and is due in part to one particular
:article that claimed JLC had the condition. Before the article was
:published, the author removed the reference because he was able to get
:confirmation, but the version that included JLC made it out onto the
:web. (Please take this with a big grain of salt, because I'm going
:from memory, here. I strongly advise going to the AFU archives to be
:sure.)
Also, I am sure that some lecturers may use JLC as an example of how a
typical person with "testicular feminisation"/"androgen insensitivity
system[1]" may look because she's easy to remember. My own neurology
lecturer used Joe Cocker's arm movements while singing as an example
of the typical movements of those with chorea - but none of us who
were paying attention thought she meant that he actually was suffering
from that particular neurological disorder. I can see how someone who
wasn't paying full attention might gain that impression though.
:Short of confirmation direct from JLC herself, we have no way of
:proving or disproving this legend. It appears that JLC has no wish to
:discuss her medical history with the rest of the world, and she is
:well within her rights to think this way. As such, many of us feel
:that discussing it is, well, just plain tacky.
:
:Judy "also consider the reliability of the sleazy doctor that would
:breech doctor/patient confidentiallity to pass on this gossip" Johnson
1. My own friend who suffers from AIS is pleasingly plump and buxom
yet muscular as a rower and physiotherapist. I find it difficult to
think of a woman who looks less like JLC, so someone using JLC as a
"typical phenotype" of an AIS sufferer is, as others in this thread
have pointed out, rather limiting their sample.
Vivienne "maybe these lecturers just enjoy titillating their students"
Smythe
--
"I am not a historian of science, of course, but I did watch
several episodes of _Cosmos_ when I was 13. So, I am learned
on the subject." [Jesse F Hughes blinds us with science]
R H Draney
>
> Also, I am sure that some lecturers may use JLC as an example of how a
> typical person with "testicular feminisation"/"androgen insensitivity
> system[1]" may look because she's easy to remember. My own neurology
> lecturer used Joe Cocker's arm movements while singing as an example
> of the typical movements of those with chorea - but none of us who
> were paying attention thought she meant that he actually was suffering
> from that particular neurological disorder. I can see how someone who
> wasn't paying full attention might gain that impression though.
Without proper medical credentials, I held off making this point
myself...glad to see someone else thought of it too....
> 1. My own friend who suffers from AIS is pleasingly plump and buxom
> yet muscular as a rower and physiotherapist. I find it difficult to
> think of a woman who looks less like JLC, so someone using JLC as a
> "typical phenotype" of an AIS sufferer is, as others in this thread
> have pointed out, rather limiting their sample.
I don't want to get all politically correct here, but is "suffer" really
the verb you want in this paragraph?...r
Don Whittington
jaj...@lightspeed.net (Judy Johnson) wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2000 01:55:32 -0500, "David Brown" <dj...@swbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi all --
> >
> >I'm not a regular here, but I was surfing around and found the
> >urbanlegends.com site. In looking through the FAQ, I see that the issue of
> >Jamie Lee Curtis being a hermaphrodite is proven false. That's correct.
> >
> >However, during an endocrinology lecture I had in medical school (I'll
> >decline to say which one -- not sure if it could get them in trouble on the
> >basis of breaching patient confidentiality), we were given Jamie as an
> >example of testicular feminization syndrome.
>
> First of all, although I hope the regulars show some restraint in
> this, be prepared for some potentially snippy responses.
Again, no thanks to deja, but I recall a fairly contentious thread because
the original poster refused to give details on exactly which professor
used this example, and where. Memory being what it is, I may be entirely
wrong here.
The skepticism seemed to center on the ethics of discussing so public a
figure's private medical secrets. That is, the urban legend is not so much
that she is a hermaphrodite, but that instructors are using her as an
example of anything.
(Please take this with a big grain of salt, because I'm going
> from memory, here...
Don "Me too" Whittington
RKS1205
>> yet muscular as a rower and physiotherapist. I find it difficult to
>> think of a woman who looks less like JLC, so someone using JLC as a
>> "typical phenotype" of an AIS sufferer is, as others in this thread
>> have pointed out, rather limiting their sample.
>
>I don't want to get all politically correct here, but is "suffer" really
>the verb you want in this paragraph?...r
>
>--
>My other tractor is a Hoyt-Clagwell
>
>
>
>
For many of those affected, yes, suffer is correct.
Viv
:> 1. My own friend who suffers from AIS is pleasingly plump and buxom
:> yet muscular as a rower and physiotherapist. I find it difficult to
:> think of a woman who looks less like JLC, so someone using JLC as a
:> "typical phenotype" of an AIS sufferer is, as others in this thread
:> have pointed out, rather limiting their sample.
:
:I don't want to get all politically correct here, but is "suffer" really
:the verb you want in this paragraph?...r
In her case, yes - although that may not be true for other women with
AIS. She wanted kids, and AIS meant that despite intensive IVF
therapy, she couldn't fall pregnant and also had a life-threatening
haemorrhage as a side-effect of the IVF drugs. She also suffers from
monthly menstrual complications.
ObBOA: AIS - Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome
IVF - In Vitro Fertilisation
Vivienne "being buxom yet muscular does not negate her suffering"
Lara Hopkins
> Again, no thanks to deja, but I recall a fairly contentious thread because
> the original poster refused to give details on exactly which professor
> used this example, and where. Memory being what it is, I may be entirely
> wrong here.
>
> The skepticism seemed to center on the ethics of discussing so public a
> figure's private medical secrets. That is, the urban legend is not so much
> that she is a hermaphrodite, but that instructors are using her as an
> example of anything.
I remember the same thread, and was heavily involved in it. Your memory
is accurate, inasfar as it concurs with mine.
I strongly doubt the original poster would be breaching patient
confidentiality by disclosing the medical school where this UL was
vectored. How on earth could it be OK to identify the "patient" by name
and disease on Usenet, and not OK to identify the medical school and
professor?
Lara
McCaffertA
(Lara Hopkins) writes:
>How on earth could it be OK to identify the "patient" by name
>and disease on Usenet, and not OK to identify the medical school and
>professor?
Pecuniarily.
Anthony "JLC is less likely to sue" McCafferty
JoAnne Schmitz
wrote:
>Ulo Melton <melt...@sewergator.com> wrote:
>>David Brown wrote:
>>
>>>However, during an endocrinology lecture I had in medical school (I'll
>>>decline to say which one -- not sure if it could get them in trouble on the
>>>basis of breaching patient confidentiality), we were given Jamie as an
>>>example of testicular feminization syndrome.
>>
>>Did the lecturer happen to mention how he/she came by this knowledge of
>>Jamie Lee Curtis's physiology?
>>
>What's strange about this is that we've had more than one poster come
>here and report that they (or their daughter, sister, aunt, etc.) were
>told in a lecture in medical school that JLC has Androgen Insensitivity
>Syndrome (AIS).
What is even stranger is that the person is always afraid to say who it was in
the medical college who told it to them.
Can't we convince you to say, David?
JoAnne "at least give us a hint -- was this in California?" Schmitz
Helge Moulding
>(Lara Hopkins) writes:
>>How on earth could it be OK to identify the "patient" by name
>>and disease on Usenet, and not OK to identify the medical school
>>and professor?
> Pecuniarily.
>Anthony "JLC is less likely to sue" McCafferty
A medical school or university or professor would sue over a
(presumably true) assertion that one of their professors identified
JLC as suffering from AIS? Or at least more likely to sue than JLC?
Isn't it equally or more likely that someone with an MD might not
want their former professors (or even present advisors if they are
doing their internship) bothered about this sort of thing,
especially as it might prove embarrassing to either or both?
I remember that my chemistry prof at college told the "Urin Taste
Test" UL as if it happened to him. I might be more reticent to
identify his name (Beishlein - sp?) or the school (Weber State in
Ogden, Utah) if I thought that you all might barge in on him,
especially if he and I still dealt with each other, either as
friends or at a professional level.
--
Helge "Pecuniar reasoning" Moulding
mailto:hmou...@excite.com Just another guy
http://hmoulding.cjb.net/ with a weird name
McCaffertA
<hmou...@excite.com> writes:
>McCaffertA wrote,
>>(Lara Hopkins) writes:
>>>How on earth could it be OK to identify the "patient" by name
>>>and disease on Usenet, and not OK to identify the medical school
>>>and professor?
>> Pecuniarily.
>>Anthony "JLC is less likely to sue" McCafferty
>
>A medical school or university or professor would sue over a
>(presumably true) assertion that one of their professors identified
>JLC as suffering from AIS? Or at least more likely to sue than JLC?
If, say, Harvard Medical School was named here, do you think Ms. JLC would
be as likely to treat it with polite disdain? Would a prosecuter ignore it?
Some breaches of patient confidence aren't just civil injuries.
>Isn't it equally or more likely that someone with an MD might not
>want their former professors (or even present advisors if they are
>doing their internship) bothered about this sort of thing,
>especially as it might prove embarrassing to either or both?
Sure...but they might not merely get mad at him...they might, you know, sue
him. Last I checked, this is slander per se in several states still, right?
>I remember that my chemistry prof at college told the "Urin Taste
>Test" UL as if it happened to him. I might be more reticent to
>identify his name (Beishlein - sp?) or the school (Weber State in
>Ogden, Utah) if I thought that you all might barge in on him,
>especially if he and I still dealt with each other, either as
>friends or at a professional level.
But telling this story, even with a little personal embellishment, is at
worst a bit of clownishness....and not a particularly uncommon one. The same
story was told (dunno how FOAFishly) at my brother's med school (USHS, '83) and
at both out colleges (WPI and MIT), and at our highschool (The late "Fa(s)t
Jack" Dempsey, God rest him, Boston College High. Sorry, but I only remember
one name to put to it). At best, it's a rather memorable admonishment to watch
everything. Telling it with oneself, or an anonymous nobody as the victim
harms no one.
On the other hand, you can draw a lot from the fact that TFS is now called
AIS. When a disease, ethnic group, government agency, private company,
whatever goes through a new name every 12 weeks it is usually a sign that the
underlying condition is (rightly or wrongly) detested, feared, or held
contemptible.
A physician...no, any professional...who uses confidential information
about a patient publicly without a compelling need to do so is pond scum, and
deserves to be poor, jailed pondscum. Any attempt to trace this back to a
point source should take this into consideration.
Anthony McCafferty
John Francis
>
>1) There are a certain set of physiological characteristics associated
>with Testicular Feminization Syndrome (height, lean body mass (high
>2) Movie star Jamie Lee Curtis exhibits, larger-than-life and on our
>movie screens, the above
People need to watch more movies. I don't remember JLC having
flat nipples in the one movie I saw where they were displayed.
--
John "In which movie did American movie star
Jamie Lee Curtis first get her kit off?" Francis
Dr H
On Sat, 28 Oct 2000, HWM wrote:
}Ulo Melton wrote:
}
}> IF your aunt did indeed have balls, it would be true that she is your
}> uncle.
}
}If you are AC-DC, you've got the biggest balls of them all...
Is this the "balls on powerlines" thread...?
Dr H
Dr H
On 30 Oct 2000, McCaffertA wrote:
}In article <8tk7su$q58$1...@si05.rsvl.unisys.com>, "Helge Moulding"
}<hmou...@excite.com> writes:
}
}>McCaffertA wrote,
}>>(Lara Hopkins) writes:
}>>>How on earth could it be OK to identify the "patient" by name
}>>>and disease on Usenet, and not OK to identify the medical school
}>>>and professor?
}>> Pecuniarily.
}>>Anthony "JLC is less likely to sue" McCafferty
}>
}>A medical school or university or professor would sue over a
}>(presumably true) assertion that one of their professors identified
}>JLC as suffering from AIS? Or at least more likely to sue than JLC?
}
} If, say, Harvard Medical School was named here, do you think Ms. JLC would
} be as likely to treat it with polite disdain? Would a prosecuter ignore it?
}Some breaches of patient confidence aren't just civil injuries.
It is not at all clear from David's original post that the professor
who allegedly made these claims was in any way privy to JLC's personal
medical history. In fact, it almost appears as it he/she were
claiming a diagnosis based on physical appearance alone.
While spreading this story to his/her class /might/ somehow be construed
as some sort of libel (and I have my doubts about that), I don't see
how it could possibly be considered a breach of patient confidence.
If JLC is not, and never was a patient of this professor, and if this
professor has never seen any of JLC's medical records, what are the
grounds for medical breach of confidence?
}>Isn't it equally or more likely that someone with an MD might not
}>want their former professors (or even present advisors if they are
}>doing their internship) bothered about this sort of thing,
}>especially as it might prove embarrassing to either or both?
}
} Sure...but they might not merely get mad at him...they might, you know, sue
}him. Last I checked, this is slander per se in several states still, right?
Maybe. Seems's likek JLC would have to prove some sort of personal
damage had resulted from the comments. Is it actually slander to
say that you think someone exhibits signs/symptoms of a particular
medical condition? And what if it turns out to be true?
[...]
} On the other hand, you can draw a lot from the fact that TFS is now called
}AIS. When a disease, ethnic group, government agency, private company,
}whatever goes through a new name every 12 weeks it is usually a sign that the
}underlying condition is (rightly or wrongly) detested, feared, or held
}contemptible.
Perhaps. You could claim this is/has been true of many conditions.
Deafness comes to mind, and now we have a thread going on about
"Deaf Pride."
} A physician...no, any professional...who uses confidential information
}about a patient publicly without a compelling need to do so is pond scum, and
}deserves to be poor, jailed pondscum. Any attempt to trace this back to a
}point source should take this into consideration.
And the determination needs to be made that there was any confidentiality
for the professional to breach. I seriously doubt that stating a
professional opinion based on casual observation falls into this
category.
If a physician watching Devine on screen makes the statement that
s/he was morbidly obese, is that a breach of confidentiality?
Dr H
R H Draney
>
> } A physician...no, any professional...who uses confidential information
> }about a patient publicly without a compelling need to do so is pond scum, and
> }deserves to be poor, jailed pondscum. Any attempt to trace this back to a
> }point source should take this into consideration.
>
> And the determination needs to be made that there was any confidentiality
> for the professional to breach. I seriously doubt that stating a
> professional opinion based on casual observation falls into this
> category.
>
> If a physician watching Devine on screen makes the statement that
> s/he was morbidly obese, is that a breach of confidentiality?
Hmmm...I recall a story many years back where a doctor was watching
actor Paul Benedict, who played Mr Bentley on the TV series "The
Jeffersons", and decided that he seemed to be afflicted with Marfan's
syndrome...he contacted the actor and helped set him up with whatever
therapy was necessary...(the context of the story was how the doctor
spotted the symptoms from the audience during a peformance)...since this
story was in the popular press (TV Guide?), Benedict apparently didn't
mind having his condition made public....
(I can't find anything on this online, but am amazed to discover that Mr
Benedict, despite affecting a British accent in "The Jeffersons" and as
a hotel clerk in "This Is Spinal Tap", was born in the very town I lived
in during the entire decade of the 1970s)....r
McCaffertA
<dado...@earthlink.net> writes:
>Hmmm...I recall a story many years back where a doctor was watching
>actor Paul Benedict, who played Mr Bentley on the TV series "The
>Jeffersons", and decided that he seemed to be afflicted with Marfan's
>syndrome...he contacted the actor and helped set him up with whatever
>therapy was necessary...(the context of the story was how the doctor
>spotted the symptoms from the audience during a peformance)...since this
>story was in the popular press (TV Guide?), Benedict apparently didn't
>mind having his condition made public....
Rather different from JLC, as the whole point of the UL is "gee, she don't
look it".
RKS1205
>called
>}AIS. When a disease, ethnic group, government agency, private company,
>}whatever goes through a new name every 12 weeks it is usually a sign that
>the
>}underlying condition is (rightly or wrongly) detested, feared, or held
>}contemptible.
>
> Perhaps. You could claim this is/has been true of many conditions.
> Deafness comes to mind, and now we have a thread going on about
> "Deaf Pride."
For some odd reason, I never found the original to which this post is
referring, however, the switch from TFS to AIS is not a move made for political
correctness, but for accuracy in diagnosis.
Androgen Insensitivity is the actual cause of this disorder, Testicular
Feminization is the after effect of the body's insensitivity to androgens.
Rebecca Baughman
Sidhedevil
I hestitate to criticize, but I think you've got it slightly
backwards. My understanding of the "point" of the UL is this: "How
interesting that a movie sex bombshell, a symbol of feminine beauty,
also conforms in appearance to the generally accepted phenotype of
people with a particular genetic anomaly, one which involves
biological sexual characteristics."
(Again, Rebecca has pointed out elsewhere in the thread that the
"generally accepted phenotype" is not particularly relevant to the
actual syndrome, but it is definitely part of the superficial lore of
medical school.)
Sidhedevil "superficial Lorax" the She-Devil
McCaffertA
writes:
>> Rather different from JLC, as the whole point of the UL is "gee,
>she don't look it".
>
>I hestitate to criticize, but I think you've got it slightly
>backwards.
I dunno. The Ur-UL re JLC was, if memory serves, was that she was
intersexed. Whether this was a watering-down of
AIS/TFS/whatever-it-will-be-next-week for a less educated audience, I can't
say.
> My understanding of the "point" of the UL is this: "How
>interesting that a movie sex bombshell, a symbol of feminine beauty,
>also conforms in appearance to the generally accepted phenotype of
>people with a particular genetic anomaly, one which involves
>biological sexual characteristics."
...except, you know, where she (apparently) doesn't. Which appears to be
a great deal more often then not, no?
>(Again, Rebecca has pointed out elsewhere in the thread that the
>"generally accepted phenotype" is not particularly relevant to the
>actual syndrome, but it is definitely part of the superficial lore of
>medical school.)
Which makes for great irony, yup...but Ms. C. doesn't actually match up
well with those notions either, IMO, I doubt most people would be able to pick
her body silhouette out of a group of age-matched actresses.
Obviously, figuring out what an actor really looks like is a fool's errand
(Hey, Walker! Wanna pick up some spare change?); it's entirely possible she
does fit the stereotype more closely than first glance would suggest.
>Sidhedevil "superficial Lorax" the She-Devil
Anthony "gratutitous Grinch" McCafferty
McCaffertA
(RKS1205) writes:
>For some odd reason, I never found the original to which this post is
>referring, however, the switch from TFS to AIS is not a move made for
>political correctness, but for accuracy in diagnosis.
Oh, goody. Let's tell all them med schools that "bad air" doesn't cause
those fevers while we are at it.
>Androgen Insensitivity is the actual cause of this disorder, Testicular
>Feminization is the after effect of the body's insensitivity to androgens.
This is -exactly- analogous to the movement toward re-labling Down's (as it
still properly was then) as Trisomy 23; I suspect the motivations are equally
analogous.
Anthony "Ever notice how many insults start as euphemisms?" McCafferty
RKS1205
>intersexed. Whether this was a watering-down of
>AIS/TFS/whatever-it-will-be-next-week for a less educated audience, I can't
>say.
Androgen Insensitivity, my dear "gratuitous Grinch" is one of the many forms of
intersex. I am totally female on the outside... I was a cheerleader in high
school and college, homecoming court (high school and college) and have done a
bit of tv time on the local news... You would never guess that deep in my
abdomen when I was born was a couple of twisted up testes. Intersex is an
umbrella term for the many disorders that wreak havoc with your
phenotype/genotype.
And again, Androgen Insensitivity is the correct term. It describes the actual
effect of the body, and when paired with complete or partial -- the severity of
the disorder.
Testicular Feminization is merely an after-effect of the body's insensitivity
to androgens.
Rebecca Baughman
RKS1205
>>Feminization is the after effect of the body's insensitivity to androgens.
>
> This is -exactly- analogous to the movement toward re-labling Down's (as
>it
>still properly was then) as Trisomy 23; I suspect the motivations are equally
>analogous.
>
>Anthony "Ever notice how many insults start as euphemisms?" McCafferty
>
Anthony--
Why don't we make this easy on you -- just call me a hermaphrodite, a she-male,
Tootsie or Victor/Victoria... these should be easier for you to remember. I
would hate to try to fill you brain with those horrible "politically correct"
terms -- even if the emphasis is really on "Correct!"
Possibly most telling in your post is that you did not use the horrid term
"monogloid" to refer to those born with Trisomy 23. Why did you choose not to
use that term? Because it is out-dated and highly insulting... just like
Testicular Feminization Syndrome.
Rebecca "I could get the hang of this!" Baughman
McCaffertA
(RKS1205) writes:
>Subject: Re: Dr/patient confidentiality, was: Jamie Lee Curtis,
revisited.
>From: rks...@aol.com (RKS1205)
>Date: 02 Nov 2000 18:50:09 GMT
>
>> I dunno. The Ur-UL re JLC was, if memory serves, was that she was
>>intersexed. Whether this was a watering-down of
>>AIS/TFS/whatever-it-will-be-next-week for a less educated audience, I can't
>>say.
>Androgen Insensitivity, my dear "gratuitous Grinch" is one of the many forms
>of intersex.
Ummm, yeasssss. Exactly my point.
The earlier forms of the rumor were quite unspecific, and entirely
consistent with Ms. C being, as it were, a basket-case.
> I am totally female on the outside... I was a cheerleader in high school and
>college, homecoming court (high school and college) and have done a
>bit of tv time on the local news... You would never guess that deep in my
>abdomen when I was born was a couple of twisted up testes. Intersex is an
>umbrella term for the many disorders that wreak havoc with your
>phenotype/genotype.
Ummmm, yessssss. Exactly. Earlier versions of the JLC smear were not
specific, they usually used the word "hermaphrodite", unexplained and
unqualified. At lewast that's how I first ran across them; as I said, this
could have been a dumbed-down version escaped from medlore into the general
population.
>And again, Androgen Insensitivity is the correct term.
Yet there is no reason why it should be. Medical useage preserves all
kinds of misleading etymology. Why target this one for reform?
> It describes the actual effect of the body, and when paired with complete or
>partial -- the severity of the disorder.
Hardly. "Partial" runs the gamut, damn near, from "cannot raise a good
mustache" to "(insert wolf whistle here)". (Please note the "damn near" before
going on an "educating" rant.) Complete AIS -is- TFS, with eight extra
letters...and, no doubt, some unwanted emotional connotation.
>Testicular Feminization is merely an after-effect of the body's insensitivity
>to androgens.
And Down is merely an after effect of the body's insensitivity to extra
genetic material, yet both docs and laymen seen to prefer it to the labels that
name the root cause.
Anthony "I suspect this one should be BOPped and BORred" McCafferty
McCaffertA
(RKS1205) writes:
>>>Androgen Insensitivity is the actual cause of this disorder, Testicular
>>>Feminization is the after effect of the body's insensitivity to androgens.
>>
>> This is -exactly- analogous to the movement toward re-labling Down's (as
>>it still properly was then) as Trisomy 23; I suspect the motivations are
>>equally analogous.
>>Anthony "Ever notice how many insults start as euphemisms?" McCafferty
>Anthony--
>Why don't we make this easy on you -- just call me a hermaphrodite, a
>she-male, Tootsie or Victor/Victoria... these should be easier for you to
remember.
Surely[1] you see the irony of this; your answer to a factual assertion is
a sexual slur.
>I would hate to try to fill you brain with those horrible "politically
correct"
>terms -- even if the emphasis is really on "Correct!"
But it isn't, you know. There's obviously no denotational reason to prefer
one of the other. The reason why one one term is preferred is because the
other has picked up enough negative connotation to make people want to drop it.
>Possibly most telling in your post is that you did not use the horrid term
>"monogloid" to refer to those born with Trisomy 23. Why did you choose not
>to use that term? Because it is out-dated and highly insulting...
...and, oddly enough, denotationally as "correct", as say, "leprechaunism", is.
The reason why "mongoloid" was junked is because school kids shouted it at
each other on the playground; with a concern for its racist origins tossed in.
In short, things quite external to the word's "correctness".
>just like Testicular Feminization Syndrome.
Exactly. Nothing to do with whether it is more "correct", purely about
whether it has picked up a bad connation.
Anthony "[1] Nahh gahh touch it. Wouldn't be prudent" McCafferty
Spectra
"David Brown" <dj...@swbell.net> wrote:
> Hi all --
>
> I'm not a regular here, but I was surfing around and found the
> urbanlegends.com site. In looking through the FAQ, I see that the
issue of
> Jamie Lee Curtis being a hermaphrodite is proven false. That's
correct.
>
> decline to say which one -- not sure if it could get them in trouble
on the
> basis of breaching patient confidentiality), we were given Jamie as an
> example of testicular feminization syndrome.
>
> genotypically male, i.e. has both an X and a Y chromosome. However,
> elsewhere in the genome, there is a defect one of the genes that code
for
> production of the testosterone receptor. The severity of this defect
is
> what ultimately determines the phenotype (physical expression of the
genetic
> code.)
>
> If the defect is on the severe end of the spectrum ("complete"), with
> essentially no working testosterone/androgen receptors being produced,
the
> undescended, internal testicles generate huge amounts of testosterone,
but
> it is a signal never received by the differentiating cells of the
developing
> fetus.
>
> The default pathway of primary sexual development is female. That is,
if
> you take an embryo and remove the effects of all sex hormones, the
embryo
> develops female external genitalia. So, in the absence of
testosterone (or,
> in this case, the absence of its receptor), _regardless_ of whether
there
> are ovaries to produce estrogen, the body develops as a female.
>
> This is precisely the effect in testicular feminization syndrome --
there
> are internal, undescended testes and no uterus, fallopian tubes, or
ovaries,
> but externally the labia, vagina, and clitoris all develop.
Typically, the
> labia and clitoris are indistinguishable from those of a normal
(46,XX)
> female, but the vagina is shorter than usual or sometimes absent.
Breast
> development is that of a normal woman, as are other sexual
characteristics
> of body habitus, such as pelvic shape. Axillary (armpit) and pubic
hair are
> markedly decreased or absent. TFS patients are, on average, taller
than
> 46,XX women. Psychologic development is also feminine, including
typical
> maternal instincts. The overall incidence of *complete* TFS (i.e. no
> significant androgen receptor function at all) is approximately 1 in
20,000.
>
> So, IF Jamie Lee Curtis does indeed have TFS, it would be true that
she is
> *not* a hermaphrodite, but that wouldn't be the entire story.
Externally
> she would be unambiguously female, but genetically she would be, well,
a
> "he".
>
> David J.V. "Really, I'm not making this up!" Brown, MD
>
>
I understand that this is fairly common. She is still a woman, but
she cannot reproduce as one, because geneticly, she is an xy
Dr H
On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, R H Draney wrote:
}Dr H wrote:
}>
}> } A physician...no, any professional...who uses confidential information
}> }about a patient publicly without a compelling need to do so is pond scum, and
}> }deserves to be poor, jailed pondscum. Any attempt to trace this back to a
}> }point source should take this into consideration.
}>
}> And the determination needs to be made that there was any confidentiality
}> for the professional to breach. I seriously doubt that stating a
}> professional opinion based on casual observation falls into this
}> category.
}>
}> If a physician watching Devine on screen makes the statement that
}> s/he was morbidly obese, is that a breach of confidentiality?
}
}Hmmm...I recall a story many years back where a doctor was watching
}actor Paul Benedict, who played Mr Bentley on the TV series "The
}Jeffersons", and decided that he seemed to be afflicted with Marfan's
}syndrome...he contacted the actor and helped set him up with whatever
}therapy was necessary...(the context of the story was how the doctor
}spotted the symptoms from the audience during a peformance)...since this
}story was in the popular press (TV Guide?), Benedict apparently didn't
}mind having his condition made public....
But in this case the doctor eventually assumed the role of physician
to the person in question.
No one has offered any evidence that the alleged med school prof who
allegedly made the statements about JLC was ever her physicial, or
ever had accesss to her medical records.
Dr H
Ron Sullivan
mccaf...@aol.comment (McCaffertA) wrote:
> This is -exactly- analogous to the movement toward re-labling
> Down's (as it
> still properly was then) as Trisomy 23; I suspect the motivations
> are equally
> analogous.
Last time I looked it was "Trisomy 21."
Possibly the medical bunch was getting the creeps from so um
honoring Dr Down, who assigned the "Mongoloid" term to the
condition in the first place. If you've ever met an Asian
with Trisomy 21 you'll have noticed that ethnicity and
chromosomal tripling don't much resemble each other in
resulting appearance. In short, it's a dumb name, and
evidently embarrassing.
Ron (But don't all MDs look alike to you?)
Steve Caskey
=In article <8tf9r4$3j9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <sidhe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
=>1) There are a certain set of physiological characteristics associated
=>with Testicular Feminization Syndrome (height, lean body mass (high
=>muscle-to-fat ratio), widely spaced breasts, flat nipples, ...
=
=>2) Movie star Jamie Lee Curtis exhibits, larger-than-life and on our
=>movie screens, the above
=
=People need to watch more movies. I don't remember JLC having
=flat nipples in the one movie I saw where they were displayed.
=
=--
=John "In which movie did American movie star
= Jamie Lee Curtis first get her kit off?" Francis
_Trading Places_? They were, as I recall, magnificent.
Steve "now leave the poor bloody woman alone, or her husband's
next film will take the mickey out of _your_ hobby" Caskey
--
"The virus that is invading our computers is not a virus. It is a program.
It was written by a vandal. His virus is just a brick thrown angrily
through the window of a global shop. We have called it a virus because
that makes it more ominous. And we do so like to be scared." - Joe Bennett
Alec Horgan
> Steve "now leave the poor bloody woman alone, or her husband's
> next film will take the mickey out of _your_ hobby" Caskey
Her husband is pretty much her only redeeming
feature.
Alec
cbst...@my-deja.com
One would think that if the tacky speculation about her not being a
woman hadn't been stopped before, it would surely do so once he made her
an indisputable lady.
Now, is there any hope for Elizabeth Taylor?
Charles B. Stewart
Lara Hopkins
> rks...@aol.com wrote:
> >And again, Androgen Insensitivity is the correct term.
>
> Yet there is no reason why it should be. Medical useage preserves all
> kinds of misleading etymology. Why target this one for reform?
This has been semi-answered elsewhere, but AIS has not been singled out
for nomenclature reform. Medical terminology is being constantly
altered in every specialty and subspecialty. An example that springs to
mind is the recent[L, 1] shift from COAD (chronic obstructive airways
disease) to CAL (chronic airways limitation). There are many more
examples.
> And Down is merely an after effect of the body's insensitivity to extra
> genetic material, yet both docs and laymen seen to prefer it to the labels
> that name the root cause.
More and more medicos are calling it Trisomy 21. Language shifts.
Lara
[1] Anything that happened during or after my time in medical school is
"recent".
--
'you are meanyheads who use captious sophistry, and I'm right.'
Daniel Ucko paraphrases TurnAround's apology to AFU.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~waawa/
McCaffertA
writes:
>In article <20001102132255...@nso-cm.aol.com> ,
>mccaf...@aol.comment (McCaffertA) wrote:
>
>> This is -exactly- analogous to the movement toward re-labling
>> Down's (as it still properly was then) as Trisomy 23; I suspect the
motivations
>> are equally analogous.
>Last time I looked it was "Trisomy 21."
Yup. I think it's "re-labeling", also. (23 could be Kleinfelter, right?)
>Possibly the medical bunch was getting the creeps from so um
>honoring Dr Down, who assigned the "Mongoloid" term to the
>condition in the first place. If you've ever met an Asian
>with Trisomy 21 you'll have noticed that ethnicity and
>chromosomal tripling don't much resemble each other in
>resulting appearance. In short, it's a dumb name, and
>evidently embarrassing.
Yes. Some people objected to it as racist, some simply because it had been
used a little too long as a playground taunt, yupper. I think the only reason
"Down" survived is it's less awful than the alternatives.
Anthony "inspecting my palm as we speak" McCafferty
McCaffertA
(Lara Hopkins) writes:
>McCaffertA <mccaf...@aol.comment> wrote:
>
>> rks...@aol.com wrote:
>> >And again, Androgen Insensitivity is the correct term.
>>
>> Yet there is no reason why it should be. Medical useage preserves all
>> kinds of misleading etymology. Why target this one for reform?
>
>This has been semi-answered elsewhere,
For certain values of "semi" and "answered".
> but AIS has not been singled out for nomenclature reform.
All kinds of words change over time, but doctors are also capable of
working with names that reflect mistaken ideas on a diseases origin, never mind
a semantic cavil over root cause versus apparent effects. "Cancer" comes to
mind.
On the other hand, look at the vocabulary of insanity, and see how many
terms have come and gone while "malaria" went its misnomenclatious way through
time. There's reasons for this, and not just academic need for precision.
Anthony "Never number diseases. It makes then hard to capitalize" McCafferty
JoAnne Schmitz
[Sidhedevil:]
>> My understanding of the "point" of the UL is this: "How
>>interesting that a movie sex bombshell, a symbol of feminine beauty,
>>also conforms in appearance to the generally accepted phenotype of
>>people with a particular genetic anomaly, one which involves
>>biological sexual characteristics."
>
> ...except, you know, where she (apparently) doesn't. Which appears to be
>a great deal more often then not, no?
Doesn't matter, really.
The story is "set up" by the description, right or wrong, of an AIS person.
Then we are told JLC fits this type. It's actually constructed as a complete
syllogism. Whether the facts are right or wrong doesn't matter to most
listeners because they do not have the time, energy or knowledge to discern
whether the premise of how an AIS person would look is correct as stated.
I think the story has been given legs by the general perception that female
movie stars look like "boys with breasts" or "tit-cicles" and that natural real
women don't look like the "ideal," and that anyone who prefers this shape is
actually attracted to something unnatural and sick.
The truth is that natural real women look all kinds of ways, some of whom
conform to the "ideal," most of whom do not.
JoAnne "not ideal" Schmitz
JoAnne Schmitz
In article <20001102140538...@ng-fm1.aol.com>, rks...@aol.com
(RKS1205) writes:
>>I would hate to try to fill you brain with those horrible "politically
>correct"
>>terms -- even if the emphasis is really on "Correct!"
>
> But it isn't, you know. There's obviously no denotational reason to prefer
>one of the other. The reason why one one term is preferred is because the
>other has picked up enough negative connotation to make people want to drop it.
I don't know if this is really true. There may be other syndromes in which
testicular feminization occurs. It is a symptom. Androgen Insensitivity is the
cause.
If small breasts were a symptom (which it is not), it would be less accurate to
call the syndrome "Stunted Breast Syndrome" than to call it AIS. A syndrome is
by definition a set of symptoms, is it not? Therefore to call it by one symptom
is less accurate than to call it by its root cause, if the root cause is known.
Perhaps Androgen Insensitivity was not known to be the cause when the name TFS
was first coined.
AIS has been used for at least a few years now. It's the term I first
encountered and most often encounter.
I was intrigued by the mention of someone with AIS who had menstrual
irregularities. I thought that a person with AIS has no uterus and hence no
menstrual period. Was I mistaken?
JoAnne "wouldn't be the first time" Schmitz
Viv
:In article <1ejkt5v.1n3dllh1owh7xeN%wa...@iinet.net.au>, wa...@iinet.net.au
:(Lara Hopkins) writes:
:
:>McCaffertA <mccaf...@aol.comment> wrote:
:>
:>> rks...@aol.com wrote:
:>> >And again, Androgen Insensitivity is the correct term.
:>>
:>> Yet there is no reason why it should be. Medical useage preserves all
:>> kinds of misleading etymology. Why target this one for reform?
:>
:>This has been semi-answered elsewhere,
:
: For certain values of "semi" and "answered".
:
:> but AIS has not been singled out for nomenclature reform.
:
: All kinds of words change over time, but doctors are also capable of
:working with names that reflect mistaken ideas on a diseases origin, never mind
:a semantic cavil over root cause versus apparent effects. "Cancer" comes to
:mind.
Amongst 'emselves in Eastern Oz, 'em medicos call that cancer stuff
neoplasmic tissue and qualify with 'benign', 'encapsulated',
'malignant', 'aggressively invasive', 'primary', 'secondary' etc.
It's the general public and the media that sticks to 'cancer' like
glue.
Vivienne "the idea of a crab eating away at your organs is a vivid,
virulent and tenacious meme" Smythe
--
"I am not a historian of science, of course, but I did watch
several episodes of _Cosmos_ when I was 13. So, I am learned
on the subject." [Jesse F Hughes blinds us with science]
Viv
:I was intrigued by the mention of someone with AIS who had menstrual
:irregularities. I thought that a person with AIS has no uterus and hence no
:menstrual period. Was I mistaken?
My bad. I didn't do enough reading. My friend does not have AIS, she
is XX not XY, or she would never have been accepted into the IVF
programme. I got confused and misremembered the details of her
condition.
Her condition is that her body produces "too much" testosterone which
affects her reproductive functions, including menstruation, negatively
- either she is hypersensitive to androgens, or she hyper-secretes
them - a far cry from androgen insensitivity. I cannot now remember
the official terminology for this condition.
Vivienne "sorry to mislead everybody" Smythe
Lara Hopkins
> Viv wrote:
> >Her condition is that her body produces "too much" testosterone which
> > affects her reproductive functions, including menstruation, negatively
> > - either she is hypersensitive to androgens, or she hyper-secretes
> > them - a far cry from androgen insensitivity. I cannot now remember
> > the official terminology for this condition.
>
> That may be polycystic ovary syndrome...there are a bunch of other
> symptoms, but fertility problems are definitely involved, as is insulin
> resistance (one of the factors in Type2 diabetes).
More at
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/nov16/kidson/kidson.html
and
http://www.pitt.edu/~kerst9/pcopage.htm
for those interested.
Lara
Phil Edwards
wrote:
>(I can't find anything on this online, but am amazed to discover that Mr
>Benedict, despite affecting a British accent in "The Jeffersons" and as
>a hotel clerk in "This Is Spinal Tap", was born in the very town I lived
>in during the entire decade of the 1970s).
The accents in _TiST_ are good, but they're not *that* good (with the
obvious exception of the aforementioned Lady Haden Guest's hubbie).
Neither wossname, Nigel Tufnel, nor the multi-talented Harry Shearer
sounds *really* English. But they're close.
Phil "Oh, and we don't say 'transom'. Close, though." Edwards
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth/
"Sometimes a shoe tree is just a shoe tree, and if you don't
get it, you weren't supposed to." - Andy Walton
R H Draney
>
> The accents in _TiST_ are good, but they're not *that* good (with the
> obvious exception of the aforementioned Lady Haden Guest's hubbie).
> Neither wossname, Nigel Tufnel, nor the multi-talented Harry Shearer
> sounds *really* English. But they're close.
Oh, I don't know...Patrick Macnee sounded pretty convincing....
(Seriously, even *I*--a native SoCal-ian--could hear some pretty serious
clangers that messed up the illusion...and a couple of examples of
seriously messed up terminology as well)....r
Joseph Michael Bay
So, Trisomy 21 *causes* Down Syndrome, and in fact the analogy holds.
But it's not the analogy you see.
>Anthony "Ever notice how many insults start as euphemisms?" McCafferty
Joe "Isn't that special?" Bay
--
SOME PEOPLE...SOME PEOPLE LIKE CUPCAKES EXCLUSIVELY, Joe Bay
WHILE MYSELF, I SAY THERE IS NAUGHT NOR OUGHT THERE BE Stanford University
NOTHING SO EXALTED ON THE FACE OF GOD'S GREY EARTH AS Stanford, California
THAT PRINCE OF FOODS... THE MUFFIN! Cancer Biology
Joseph Michael Bay
>sca...@xcski.com (Steve Caskey) writes:
I'm sure you're a real prize, Memphis boy.
Joe "MAY-am-phee-yus tay-nuh-SEE" Bay