Car blown off bridge: fact or Milty (Mother-in-law-terror-yarn)?
Connelly Simmons
Just hoping somebody can help me settle an arg.
I have a relative we call Uncle Milty. (No not the "real" one.) [see
def. in sub. line]
He's always re-telling what I believe to be urban legends. Trouble is
he won't provide
proof and I don't have the resources to scan all of the newspapers
necessary to stifle
his very fertile imagination. He's killing me. My wife now goes out of
her way to avoid
any bridge of length on any of our driving routes.
Please tell me where I can find a case of a car being blown off of the
Mackinac bridge.
In his story, it's a Yugo. But, heck, I'll take any car being blown off
of any bridge.
I'm tired of hearing about it.
Help!
alice faber
>Help!
I can't help you with any stories about cars on bridges, but I can
point out a few things. First, when Yugos were first sold in this
country, there were a lot of jokes told about them; not to mention the
wretched review they received in Consumer Reports (one of the few
times I've ever tried to influence a cow orker's buying decision was
dissuading someone from buying a Yugo). I could well imagine a jocular
reference to a Yugo being so light it would be blown off a bridge in a
stiff breeze. Second, a lot of bridges have restrictions on the types
of vehicles allowed on them in adverse weather conditions. For
instance, it's common for bridges in the New York metropolitan area to
ban motorcycles and car-pulled trailers when high winds are occurring
or are forecast. I remember rather vividly that during one of the
"snow hurricanes" seven or eight years ago, a tractor trailer truck
was blown over on its side on one of the major NYC bridges (it was
*either* the Bronx-Whitestone Bridge or the Throggs Neck Bridge, both
of which connect the Bronx and Queens); the truck stayed on the
bridge, though. Third, a lot of drivers dislike driving over bridges
under any circumstances, and stories like the one about the truck
toppling over in the wind certainly don't help. So, it's easy to
imagine a driver with a bridge phobia (whether mild or severe)
interpreting a joke about Yugos on bridges to be a warning about the
dangers of driving over bridges.
Alice "crossing that bridge" Faber
Welldunne
>Mackinac bridge.
>In his story, it's a Yugo. But, heck, I'll take any car being blown off
>of any bridge.
>I'm tired of hearing about it.
>Connelly Simmons
Just a couple weeks ago, Florida newspapers reported that *five* cars were
blown off a bridge in Panama City (during a tornado touchdown there). IIRC,
there were no fatalities and everyone was rescued quickly.
JasCJones
> My wife now goes out of
>her way to avoid
>any bridge of length on any of our driving routes.
>Please tell me where I can find a case of a car being blown off of the
>Mackinac bridge.
>In his story, it's a Yugo. But, heck, I'll take any car being blown off
>of any bridge.
>I'm tired of hearing about it.
>
Here are some you might want to check out:
The Tacoma Narrows Bridge - (L) 1948
Thunderstorm / Freighter hits bridge in Tampa Bay (L) 1985
And frequently, no not frequently but every few years it seems a car or cars
get washed into a storm swollen stream.
http://www.snopes.com
http://www.urbanlegends.com
Jim "sunny day/dry land" Jones
JasC...@aol.common.org
AOL made a profit last quarter (hint)
The climatically impaired may visit http://members.aol.com/jascjones
OVazq007
>>of any bridge.
>>I'm tired of hearing about it.
>
>
>
>Just a couple weeks ago, Florida newspapers reported that *five* cars were
>blown off a bridge in Panama City (during a tornado touchdown there). IIRC,
>there were no fatalities and everyone was rescued quickly.
Hi, lurker first time poster. Yup, a few cars were "blown" off a bridge in the
Tallahassee area. However, all I heard of were cars that were blown onto their
sides, none that were physically blown "off" of the bridge. Frankly, I don't
think it's possible, but you never know with smaller cars.
Mickey "No Clinton Jokes Please" Knox
Linda Feliciano
>
> Sometime in the fifties. Periodic wind gusts caused the bridge to shake up and
> down until it collapsed. Does anybody know the name?
Tacoma Narrows Bridge. The collapse was in 1940, 4 months after the
bridge opened.
Some info about the collapse, and link to the video can be found at
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bridge/meetsusp.html#clips
Linda
Joanne
H.W.M. <mun...@spam.com> wrote in message news:369AE310...@spam.com...
>Connelly Simmons wrote:
>> But, heck, I'll take any car being blown off
>> of any bridge.
>
>Well, in almost every documentary of bridges there is an old 8mm film
>from the 1940's
>(by the look of the cars) where a bridge across a gorge starts to
>twist in the wind and finally crashes down. Quite famous, someone can
>probably help me out with the name.
>
>I had the grandfather of a Yugo for two years...
>--
>
>Cheers,| The darkness must go down the river of night's dreaming.|
>HWM | Flow morphia slow, let the sun and light come streaming.|
>==> hen...@GNWmail.com & http://www.softavenue.fi/u/henry.w
The bridge you mention was the Tacoma Narrows bridge, affectionately called
"Gallopping Gertie" by the locals until the wind got the best of her, and
twisted her apart.
H.W.M.
Caleb Rock
> Please tell me where I can find a case of a car being blown off of the
> Mackinac bridge.
> In his story, it's a Yugo.
This actually happened, about two years ago. A case of driving 70 mph(1)
in high winds, on a big bridge, in a Yugo. The thought of anyone
driving 70 mph in a Yugo is scary enough.
Caleb "Yooper" (2) Rock
(1) miles per hour
(2) someone born in Michigan's upper peninsula
JasCJones
>Well, in almost every documentary of bridges there is an old 8mm film
>from the 1940's
>(by the look of the cars) where a bridge across a gorge starts to
>twist in the wind and finally crashes down. Quite famous, someone can
>probably help me out with the name.
>
>I had the grandfather of a Yugo for two years...
>--
Sometime in the fifties. Periodic wind gusts caused the bridge to shake up and
down until it collapsed. Does anybody know the name?
Jim Jones
p.s. I think you can get the video through Blockbuster.
Henrik Schmidt
> Well, in almost every documentary of bridges there is an old 8mm film
> from the 1940's
> (by the look of the cars) where a bridge across a gorge starts to
> twist in the wind and finally crashes down. Quite famous, someone can
> probably help me out with the name.
Tacoma Narrows Bridge. The film, stills, and explanations can be found
at:
http://www.fen.bris.ac.uk/engmaths/research/nonlinear/tacoma/tacoma.html
> I had the grandfather of a Yugo for two years...
Ick! The formar Warsaw Pact countries weren't exactly known for their
quality cars, but I remember the Yugo family as being particularly
wretched.
ObYugoJoke: A friend went to a dealer the other day and said, "I'd like
a gas cap for my Yugo." The dealer replied, "Okay. Sounds like a fair
trade."
Henrik "Drove a Skoda once, but only for about 5 kilometers" Schmidt
--
Remove DAMN.SPAM. from my address to reply
kim...@aol.com
>Mackinac bridge.
>of any bridge.
Yes. It happened. But ya gotta understand about both the bridge (is it
still the longest suspension bridge in the world?) and the weather
conditions up there. There are folks whose job it is to drive cars
across for folks who are too afraid to do it themselves ... and there
are truckers who avail themselves of the service. Apparently, a bit
of less then careful driving combined with unusually high winds, even
for the straits, and the Yugo went up over the railings and into the
water.
-- Kim
Henrik Schmidt
>
> >Please tell me where I can find a case of a car being blown off of the
> >Mackinac bridge.
> >In his story, it's a Yugo. But, heck, I'll take any car being blown off
> >of any bridge.
>
> Yes. It happened. But ya gotta understand about both the bridge (is it
> still the longest suspension bridge in the world?)
Nope, not even by a long shot, even though the people who describe it on
their web pages apparently haven't noticed. The worlds largest (longest)
suspension bridge is in Japan (I forget the name) and second largest is
right here in li'l ol' Denmark. The Storebaelt Bridge, opened last year,
exceeds the Mackinac Bridge's span by about 75 meters.
Henrik "I know it pains the Americans to not have the biggest whatever
in the world, but there you have it" Schmidt
Leia
>
> The Tacoma Narrows Bridge - (L) 1948
>
shown in my engineering physics class <mumble> years ago, to demonstrate
amplitude.
I wonder what happened to the engineers who designed that bridge?
Leia "mathematicians integrate e to the x" B.
--
^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^
Princess Leia To send mail reverse:
My other car is a black helicopter ten.inda "ta" bml
Madeleine Page
:>Please tell me where I can find a case of a car being blown off of the
:>Mackinac bridge. [...]
:
: Yes. It happened. But ya gotta understand about both the bridge (is it
: still the longest suspension bridge in the world?) and the weather
: conditions up there. There are folks whose job it is to drive cars
: across for folks who are too afraid to do it themselves ... and there
: are truckers who avail themselves of the service.
From genuine curiosity, do you have any sort of cite for this most unusual
profession? (I'm trying to imagine the kid who's asked what hir dad or
mum does for a living... what does sie say?).
By the way, for the original poster: you might be able to get your
Department of Highways or its equivalent to give you an estimate of the
number of cars that travel over the bridge in a given year. Then identify
the number per year blown off the bridge. And calculate the odds for
whoever it is that now won't drive over it. Just so sie can at least
recognize that this is an irrational fear.
Madeleine "the bad news is that being too scared to drive over bridges is
an early sign of agoraphobia" Page
Ray Depew
>
> "H.W.M." <mun...@spam.com> wrote:
>
> >Well, in almost every documentary of bridges there is an old 8mm film
> >from the 1940's
> >(by the look of the cars) where a bridge across a gorge starts to
> >twist in the wind and finally crashes down. Quite famous, someone can
> >probably help me out with the name.
> >
>
> Sometime in the fifties. Periodic wind gusts caused the bridge to shake up and
> down until it collapsed. Does anybody know the name?
I think it was the Tacoma Narrows bridge. In the movie I saw, the
roadbed was oscillating wildly, but the center stripe on the roadbed
wasn't moving - in fact, the bridge's designer was moseying towards the
camera along the center stripe, smiling and wearing a heavy overcoat
(cold wind, I guess) while the roadbed heaved up and down on either side
of him.
It was a steady wind, too. That's what the problem was: certain wind
velocities set up oscillations in the bridge, and it was those
oscillations that finally tore the bridge apart.
R
R
Machelle Simon-Grech
> Yes. It happened. But ya gotta understand about both the bridge (is it
> still the longest suspension bridge in the world?) and the weather
> conditions up there. There are folks whose job it is to drive cars
> across for folks who are too afraid to do it themselves ... and there
> of less then careful driving combined with unusually high winds, even
> for the straits, and the Yugo went up over the railings and into the
> water.
> -- Kim
Another thing to consider about the Mackinaw Bridge is the driving
surface is steel grating, so the wind can blow up through the bottom.
They do post warnings and even close the bridge down at times of high
winds that could possibly blow anything off. You can drive at your own
risk at those times.
Machelle "finally, after 2 years of lurking, I have something I can post
about" Grech
--
Machelle Simon-Grech |The opinions above are mine|
Ford Motor Company |and only mine. They have |
Visteon - Glass Division |nothing to do with that of |
mgr...@ford.com |my employeer's! |
Go Wings! 97 & 98 Stanley Cup Winners!
Free-rangin' Chicken
Note that it's always a Yugo or a "subcompact." But the only actual cases of
vehicles being blown off a bridge, it's an aerodynamically challenged trailer
or tractor-trailer.
We Merkins like to think we're protecting ourselves as we saddle up in our
SUVs, but I suspect that an SUV is probably far more susceptible to
cross-winds than a typical subcompact.
--Dirk "or Free-rangin' if'n you like" Chicken
Bo Bradham wrote:
> Connelly Simmons <connelly...@ncsu.edu> wrote:
> >First posting.
> >Just hoping somebody can help me settle an arg.
> >I have a relative we call Uncle Milty. (No not the "real" one.) [see
> >def. in sub. line]
> >He's always re-telling what I believe to be urban legends. ...
> >...
> >Please tell me where I can find a case of a car being blown off of the
> >Mackinac bridge.
> >In his story, it's a Yugo. But, heck, I'll take any car being blown off
> >of any bridge.
> >I'm tired of hearing about it.
>
> You owe Uncle Milty a Pepsi:
>
> : Mleczko, Louis; Twardon, Liz; Martin, Roger; Cain, Charlie
> : Wind Swept Car Off Bridge 'Like Paper'
> : Detroit News
> : Sep 26, 1989
> : Gusting wind caused a small car to plunge off the Mackinac
> Bridge in Michigan. Witnesses said the car was swept off the
> bridge "like a piece of paper."
>
> : Fogel, Helen
> : Flying Car Theory Doubted
> : Detroit News
> : Sep 28, 1989
> : Witnesses of the accident on the Mackinac Bridge Sep 22, 1989
> say they think high winds blew a subcompact Yugo off the
> structure, but scientists and insurance specialists reject
> that theory, saying high winds alone could not possibly be
> responsible for the accident.
>
> The cops finally decided the driver was at fault:
>
> : Martin, Roger
> : Speeding Blamed in Bridge Plunge
> : Detroit News
> : Nov 7, 1989
> : According to the final state police report, Leslie Ann Pluhar
> was speeding and probably panicked when her subcompact car
> was hit by a strong burst of wind, causing her to lose
> control and plunge off the Mackinac Bridge on Sept 22, 1989.
> Pluhar died after her car fell 170 feet off the wet bridge.
>
> But other times it really was the wind:
>
> : High Winds Roll Truck, Trailer on Mackinac Bridge
> : Detroit News
> : Nov 12, 1989
> : Police say wind gusts of up to 52 mph caused a truck and
> empty 32-foot trailer to roll over several times, sending the
> sides and roof of the trailer over the guardrail on the
> Mackinac Bridge.
>
> : Mleczko, Louis
> : Couple to get $1 million in Mackinac Bridge crash
> : Detroit News
> : Nov 26, 1993
> : The Mackinac (MI) Bridge Authority has been ordered to pay
> more than $1 million to the family of Indianan Eugene Horton,
> who was seriously injured when wind blew the trailer he was
> towing off the bridge in 1989. The Authority was ruled to
> have been negligent in failing to put up wind warning signs.
>
> I'd say if a person were going to be afraid of a bridge, that'd
> be the one to be afraid of.
>
> Bo
jon hawkins
<19990111183911...@ng117.aol.com>...
> Hi, lurker first time poster. Yup, a few cars were "blown" off a bridge
in the
> Tallahassee area. However, all I heard of were cars that were blown onto
their
> sides, none that were physically blown "off" of the bridge. Frankly, I
don't
> think it's possible, but you never know with smaller cars.
>
> Mickey "No Clinton Jokes Please" Knox
it is very much possible. when i was about 15 my dad and i were travelling
from the lower penninsula of Michigan to the upper, which means crossing
the Mackinac bridge. we were in a van with about 6 other people and i
remember it being blown all over the road when we hit open areas.
anywho, that same night a woman in her Yugo was blown off of the bridge.
her car was picked up and tossed down into the lake below (R.I.P.) with out
ever touching the railings or suspension cables. so it can happen, but...
1) she was in a tiny damned car.
2) there are portions of the Mackinac bridge that are metal grillwork
rather than solid metal or pavement, which might have allowed an updraft to
occur that wouldn't on other overpasses or bridges.
btw: the Mackinac bridge's speed limit is shown on digital signs so that it
can be changed easily. the speed limit drops lower in windy/stormy weather.
jdh
kim...@aol.com
>Note that it's always a Yugo or a "subcompact." But the only actual cases of
>vehicles being blown off a bridge, it's an aerodynamically challenged trailer
>or tractor-trailer.
for getting the correct date. 1989 instead of 1990, as my faulty memory
had it.) As I recall (always a dangerous phrase) the Yugo was the first
vehicle ever to go over the side of that bridge.
-- Kim
kim...@aol.com
>: still the longest suspension bridge in the world?) and the weather
>: conditions up there. There are folks whose job it is to drive cars
>: across for folks who are too afraid to do it themselves ... and there
>: are truckers who avail themselves of the service.
>profession?
changing the way they were performing the service. I can try to find it
for you. They are DOT employees, and I guess it was some sort of logistical
thing about getting back the side of bridge you lived on by the end of the
day that caused the change. I took note of the article because I'm
nervous enough about that bridge to have gone 'round Lake Michigan the
other way to avoid it.
>Madeleine "the bad news is that being too scared to drive over bridges is
>an early sign of agoraphobia" Page
have jumped out of an airplane (tandem), flown in an open cockpit bi-plane
and hot air balloons, etc. but I get sometimes barely controllable panic
attacks on most bridges and overpasses. Small ones only make me nervous
now, but I can't even *look* at bridges like the Mackinac, Ambassador or
Golden Gate without getting twitchy.
Madeleine Page
: Madeleine Page <mp...@panix.com> wrote:
:>kim...@aol.com wrote:
:> [cars fall off bridge]
:>: Yes. It happened. ... There are folks whose job it is to drive cars
:>: across for folks who are too afraid to do it themselves ... and there
:>: are truckers who avail themselves of the service.
:>
:>From genuine curiosity, do you have any sort of cite for this most unusual
:>profession? [...]
: : Detroit News & Free Press
: : May 29, 1994
: : Professional bridge-crossers help those motorists who suffer
: from acrophobia but who must cross the five-mile Mackinac
: Bridge to the Upper Peninsula in Michigan. Several bridge-
: crossers relate stories of frightened motorists.
Good lord. OK. Though I *still* wonder about Kim's assertion that it is
truck drivers who avail themselves of the service. Somehow agoraphobia and
truck driving seem like ill-assorted characteristics.
:>By the way, for the original poster: you might be able to get your
:>Department of Highways or its equivalent to give you an estimate of the
:>number of cars that travel over the bridge in a given year. Then identify
:>the number per year blown off the bridge. And calculate the odds for
:>whoever it is that now won't drive over it. Just so sie can at least
:>recognize that this is an irrational fear.
: Is it?
[snip cites where legislators want improved safety in high winds because
of risks to campers; a car being blown off the bridge (allegedly); bridge
not being up to current safety standards]
Good stuff, and I was perhaps too airy in saying that this was an
irrational fear. But if the person *always* refuses to drive over the
bridge, whatever sie is driving and whatever the wind conditions, I'd
submit that it is irrational. If ten thousand trips per month are made,
and one car is blown off the bridge every two years, then, um... Well, the
odds of being blown off -- especially in calm weather -- are about the
same as the odds of winning the lottery.
This isn't arguing that it's acceptable to have a bridge that even very
occasionally allows cars to be swept away by a high wind. It's saying that
to refuse to drive over the bridge whatever the weather conditions is
irrational. As it is irrational to refuse to fly because there have been
plane crashes.
Madeleine "understandable, yes; rational, no" Page
Eric M. Liss
Leia wrote:
>
> JasCJones wrote:
> >
> > The Tacoma Narrows Bridge - (L) 1948
> >
> I watched actual footage of this bridge twisting itself apart. This was
> shown in my engineering physics class <mumble> years ago, to demonstrate
> amplitude.
>
> I wonder what happened to the engineers who designed that bridge?
I'm not sure what happened to them, but I can give a specific cause as
related to me by an engineer at PSU-- the engineers only designed the
bridge to damp out oscillations down to the fourth primary derivative of
periodic movement. Turned out that the 7th (IIRC) derivative or the
oscillations increased without bound.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Eric M. Liss
Portland State University
Dept. of Mathematics
kim...@aol.com
>:>profession? [...]
>: : Detroit News & Free Press
>: : May 29, 1994
>: : Professional bridge-crossers help those motorists who suffer
>: from acrophobia but who must cross the five-mile Mackinac
>: Bridge to the Upper Peninsula in Michigan. Several bridge-
>: crossers relate stories of frightened motorists.
>Good lord. OK. Though I *still* wonder about Kim's assertion that it is
>truck drivers who avail themselves of the service. Somehow agoraphobia and
>truck driving seem like ill-assorted characteristics.
truck drivers that use it. I'm sure it's mostly weenie private individuals
like me ... but the fact that the bridge gives at least a few truck drivers
the heebie jeebies too makes it a lot easier to ask for the help.
>Good stuff, and I was perhaps too airy in saying that this was an
>irrational fear.
-- Kim
Brian Yeoh
> Bo Bradham <bra...@panix.com> wrote:
> : Madeleine Page <mp...@panix.com> wrote:
<snip>
> : Is it?
> Good stuff, and I was perhaps too airy in saying that this was an
> irrational fear. But if the person *always* refuses to drive over the
> bridge, whatever sie is driving and whatever the wind conditions, I'd
> submit that it is irrational. If ten thousand trips per month are made,
> and one car is blown off the bridge every two years, then, um... Well, the
> odds of being blown off -- especially in calm weather -- are about the
> same as the odds of winning the lottery.
> This isn't arguing that it's acceptable to have a bridge that even very
> occasionally allows cars to be swept away by a high wind. It's saying that
> to refuse to drive over the bridge whatever the weather conditions is
> irrational. As it is irrational to refuse to fly because there have been
> plane crashes.
> Madeleine "understandable, yes; rational, no" Page
I hate to say this, but I'd submit that it *is* rational for that marginal
person. If their utility function is such that crossing a bridge imposes
such a large disutility compared to other means of getting to where
they're going, then it is perfectly rational for them to go by another
route.
This, of course, is economic rationality, where rational peepul are
expected to do whatever gives them the most pleasure, strange as it may
be. When applied to the larger populace, such an action is irrational,
but for that one individual it is perfectly rational.
Brian "could go on and on about Tragedies of Commons, but won't" Yeoh
David Martin
> From genuine curiosity, do you have any sort of cite for this most unusual
> profession? (I'm trying to imagine the kid who's asked what hir dad or
> mum does for a living... what does sie say?).
I haven't noticed this before, do you use "hir" and "sie"
in real writing? It gives me the willies. I'd probably
pluralize "kid" to work around it, but I know that ain't a
great solution.
David "willy" Martin
--
For the alt.folklore.urban FAQ see:
http://www.urbanlegends.com/afu.faq/
For those without web access, send email to: get...@urbanlegends.com
Louann Miller
> >Madeleine "the bad news is that being too scared to drive over bridges is
> >an early sign of agoraphobia" Page
>
> Hmmm. THAT is interesting. I'm not at all skittish about open spaces, and
> have jumped out of an airplane (tandem), flown in an open cockpit bi-plane
> and hot air balloons, etc. but I get sometimes barely controllable panic
> attacks on most bridges and overpasses. Small ones only make me nervous
> now, but I can't even *look* at bridges like the Mackinac, Ambassador or
> Golden Gate without getting twitchy.
Airplanes aren't a problem for me -- maybe because the vertigo-producing
center of my brain refuses to believe I could really be that high off
the ground. I get vertigo not only looking down from heights but looking
*up at* heights, even standing on level pavement. But if I hang onto
something with my hands, I'm fine.
Louann "brachiating primate" Miller.
--
Updated 9/28/98! Media fan fiction at http://www.cyberramp.net/~millers
Madeleine Page
: Madeleine Page wrote:
:> I'm trying to imagine the kid who's asked what hir dad or
:> mum does for a living... what does sie say?).
: I haven't noticed this before, do you use "hir" and "sie"
: in real writing?
Interesting distinction being drawn here. Usenet posts are not "real
writing"? Certainly accounts for the quality of many of them...
: It gives me the willies. I'd probably
: pluralize "kid" to work around it, but I know that ain't a
: great solution.
Sometimes I'm in the mood to work around to a plural, sometimes I'm up for
typing he/she, and sometimes I use "hir" and "sie". None is ideal, and
which I use depends on my mood. Anything but the generic "he" is fine by
me.
: David "willy" Martin
Madeleine "nobly wefwaining from the obvious puns and merely noting that
this is willy willy off topic" Page
James Nicoll
Leia <My_Email_Is_@_the_Bottom_of_my_Sigfile> wrote:
>JasCJones wrote:
>>
>> The Tacoma Narrows Bridge - (L) 1948
>>
>I watched actual footage of this bridge twisting itself apart. This was
>shown in my engineering physics class <mumble> years ago, to demonstrate
>amplitude.
>
>I wonder what happened to the engineers who designed that bridge?
I seem to recall that his son-in-law was on the net the time
this came up and that the chief engineer might, ims, have killed himself
after the bridge collapsed.
--
March 20, 1999: Imperiums To Order's 15th Anniversary Party. Guests include
Rob Sawyer [SF author], Jo Walton [game designer and soon to be published
fantasy author] and James Gardner [SF author]. DP9 is a definite maybe.
Imperiums is at 12 Church Street, Kitchener, Ontario, Canada.
cwp
> We Merkins like to think we're protecting ourselves as we saddle up
> in our SUVs, but I suspect that an SUV is probably far more
> susceptible to cross-winds than a typical subcompact.
I can't speak for SUVs, nor for bridges, but I have
noticed that my Saturn reacts to strong winds much
more than did my 1978 Chevy station wagon.
cw "of course, maybe the wind has gotten stronger" p
--
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Searching through the prizes others throw away
Like a walking translation on a street of lies... - Chris Whitley
Free-rangin' Chicken
It went over the side when the driver overcorrected, but it wasn't BLOWN over.
Important difference. The only vehicles to be blown off a bridge, so far as I
could tell, were much taller ones.
The Yugo was boxy, tall for its width, and it had very skinny little tires. I'm
not trying to make a case for the Yugo, it was a horrible car. But I do get tired
of hearing that smaller cars are somehow inherently dangerous. They don't take 240
feet to stop from 60 mph like the bigger sport-utes do, for starters, nor are they
as likely to tip over. I realize this is getting off-topic, but as a happy '88
Honda CRX owner (97K miles and not nearly ready to trade it in yet) it's close to
home.
-- Dirk
alice faber
>kim...@aol.com wrote:
>> >A recurring theme here--those small cars must be dangerous!
>> >Note that it's always a Yugo or a "subcompact." But the only actual cases of
>> >vehicles being blown off a bridge, it's an aerodynamically challenged trailer
>> >or tractor-trailer.
>>
>> Except for the Yugo that WAS blown off the Mackinac Bridge. (And thanks
>> for getting the correct date. 1989 instead of 1990, as my faulty memory
>> had it.) As I recall (always a dangerous phrase) the Yugo was the first
>> vehicle ever to go over the side of that bridge.
>>
>> -- Kim
>It went over the side when the driver overcorrected, but it wasn't BLOWN over.
>Important difference. The only vehicles to be blown off a bridge, so far as I
>could tell, were much taller ones.
I sometimes have occasion to drive over a much shorter steel-grid bridge
(on Connecticut Rte 15 [aka Wilbur Cross/Merritt Parkway], across the
Housatonic River). This bridge has two lanes in each direction, without
overt marking between them (though the two directions are separated), and
one bank of the river is higher than the other. Even under optimal weather
conditions, i.e., no wind or precipitation, the primary sensation involved
in driving across this bridge is imminent loss of control. This is
especially the case driving downhill. I've never heard stories involving
accidents on this bridge, but it certainly does bring out whatever latent
white knuckle tendencies one has, and that should offset whatever safety
edge is conferred by the fact that the bridge itself is far less likely than
other bridges to ice over.
Alice "if I mention that the bridge is at Stratford, is that an official
thread tie-in[TM]?" Faber
Kim
>Important difference. The only vehicles to be blown off a bridge, so far as I
>could tell, were much taller ones.
Some reports say that along with driver error, the design of the bridge and
the high winds threw the vehicle over the edge.
>I do get tired
>of hearing that smaller cars are somehow inherently dangerous.
But folks were blaming the bridge more then the car in the Yugo/Mackinac
incident ... saying only that the small, light car made it only more likely
to happen then with something heavier and better designed.
-- Kim
Helge Moulding
> David Martin <k29...@unix.tamu.edu> wrote:
> : Madeleine Page wrote:
> :> I'm trying to imagine the kid who's asked what hir dad or
> :> mum does for a living... what does sie say?).
> : I haven't noticed this before, do you use "hir" and "sie"
> : in real writing?
> Interesting distinction being drawn here. Usenet posts are not "real
> writing"? Certainly accounts for the quality of many of them...
It is pretty clear that there are writing conventions on Usenet that
are not known outside of Usenet, neither practiced, nor accepted. I
don't know if writing that cleaves to those standards is more real
than writing that follows the Usenet lead.
(No, I don't want to talk about which standard is *better*.)
> : It gives me the willies. I'd probably pluralize "kid" to work
> : around it, but I know that ain't a great solution.
> Sometimes I'm in the mood to work around to a plural, sometimes I'm up
> for typing he/she, and sometimes I use "hir" and "sie".
Stumbled today across an interesting URL,
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rbeard/
whose author argues that pronouns belong to a class of "words" he calls
"morphemes". If you believe him, then you can't make up morphemes as
you go. (I think I only agree partially, seeing a distinction between
Maddy's usage and the gender markers used in grammar.)
> None is ideal, and which I use depends on my mood. Anything but the
> generic "he" is fine by me.
ObOffTopic: Generic "he", eh? I thought the objection to "he" was that
"he" is *not* generic. I'd argue that this whole business is analogous
to arguing agains "manufacture" because it contains the word "man": In
German the word "they" is "sie", just like the word for "she". No German
would consider arguing against a generic "she", since it is clearly
understood from the grammatical usage of the two pronouns that they are
*not* the same words. I bet we think that the words are not distinct in
meaning because English lost this Grammatical distinction as long as
1200 years ago.
ObUL: Prof Beard has some comments about "words", which may have bearing
on the recurring "100 words for snow" canard. See
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rbeard/words.html
--
Helge "Pronouns are for sissies!" Moulding
mailto:hmou...@mailexcite.com Just another guy
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1401 with a weird name
Glenn Dowdy
>
> JasCJones wrote:
> >
> > Sometime in the fifties. Periodic wind gusts caused the bridge to shake up and
> > down until it collapsed. Does anybody know the name?
>
> bridge opened.
> Some info about the collapse, and link to the video can be found at
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bridge/meetsusp.html#clips
>
I used to live about three miles from the Narrows Bridges, the new one
that gets really crowded at peak traffic times, and the old one, which
you can still see on the bottom of the Narrows during clear water times.
Glenn "Anyone ever been blown on a bridge?" Dowdy
Crash
> kim...@aol.com wrote:
> > >Please tell me where I can find a case of a car being blown off of
> > >the Mackinac bridge.
<>
> The worlds largest (longest)
> suspension bridge is in Japan (I forget the name) and second
> largest is
> right here in li'l ol' Denmark. The Storebaelt Bridge,
> opened last year,
> exceeds the Mackinac Bridge's span by about 75 meters.
from :
http://www.denmark.org/mermaid_June98/bridge.html
"The Great Belt link is one of the world's largest bridge and tunnel
projects. With a free span of 1,624 m, the 6.8 km long East Bridge is
the world's second longest suspension bridge, only surpassed by the
1,991 m long span on Japan's new Akashi-Kaikyo Bridge, which was
inaugurated on April 5 this year. Since 1981, the UK's Humber Bridge has
held the record as the world's longest suspension bridge with a free
span of 1,410 m. The world's most famous bridge, San Francisco Golden
Gate Bridge from 1937, with a free span of 1,280 m, ranks seventh on the
list of the world's largest suspension bridges."
Mackinac is #9
See also:
http://www.jcbus.co.jp/kameda/longest.htm
--
Crash 'interesting, but drifting off topic' Johnson
deke.sp...@generous.net
>: Professional bridge-crossers help those motorists who suffer
> from acrophobia but who must cross the five-mile Mackinac
> Bridge to the Upper Peninsula in Michigan. Several bridge-
> crossers relate stories of frightened motorists.
Acrophobia? These drivers help motorists who are afraid of words?
deacon "afraid of flashing lights, myself, in the rear view mirror" blues
------------------------
Let love find you! http://generous.net
A list for flirting generousSing...@onelist.com
Over The Hill Gang generousSingle...@onelist.com
College and younger generousTee...@onelist.com
Lots of Personal Ads generousProfi...@onelist.com
If it's not 'just the way you are', it's not love....
deke.sp...@generous.net
<da_bender@remove_this_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> Except for the Yugo that WAS blown off the Mackinac Bridge. (And thanks
>> for getting the correct date. 1989 instead of 1990, as my faulty memory
>> had it.) As I recall (always a dangerous phrase) the Yugo was the first
>> vehicle ever to go over the side of that bridge.
>It went over the side when the driver overcorrected, but it wasn't BLOWN over.
>Important difference. The only vehicles to be blown off a bridge, so far as I
>could tell, were much taller ones.
OK, I can buy that. She overcorrected.
Uh, what kind of overcorrection do you have to do to get your car to jump over a
fairly high guardrail without even touching it?
deacon "better get an answer before I drive again...." blues
Ulo Melton
>Ah, but how many fears we face every day are rational?
Stop it. You're scaring me.
Ulo "Alligator of Irrationality" Melton
Lord Jubjub
> JasCJones wrote:
> >
> I think it was the Tacoma Narrows bridge. In the movie I saw, the
> roadbed was oscillating wildly, but the center stripe on the roadbed
> wasn't moving - in fact, the bridge's designer was moseying towards the
> camera along the center stripe, smiling and wearing a heavy overcoat
> (cold wind, I guess) while the roadbed heaved up and down on either side
> of him.
>
> It was a steady wind, too. That's what the problem was: certain wind
> velocities set up oscillations in the bridge, and it was those
> oscillations that finally tore the bridge apart.
Well, yes and no. I've read several different articles on it within the
last few years. Can't bring any specific one to mind, but any of the
links on this thread should do. I believe it had to do more with vortex
shedding on the leeward side of the bridge, but since I'm not an engineer,
I'll simply say that the bridge collapsed because it was poorly designed
for the environment.
--
Lord Jubjub, Ruler of the Jabberwocky
Dave Wilton
>kim...@aol.com wrote:
>
>: Yes. It happened. But ya gotta understand about both the bridge (is it
>: still the longest suspension bridge in the world?) and the weather
>: conditions up there. There are folks whose job it is to drive cars
>: across for folks who are too afraid to do it themselves ... and there
>: are truckers who avail themselves of the service.
>
>From genuine curiosity, do you have any sort of cite for this most unusual
>profession? (I'm trying to imagine the kid who's asked what hir dad or
>mum does for a living... what does sie say?).
There are Maryland state troopers stationed at the Chesapeake Bay
Bridge and among their duties is to drive terrified motorists across
the bridge. That's not their only job though. I recall reading that
they average about one motorist too afraid to do it themselves a
day--and they do turn down people that appear regularly and ask to be
driven across the bridge.
--Dave Wilton
dwi...@sprynet.com
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/dwilton/homepage.htm
Derek Tearne
wrote:
>
>By the way, for the original poster: you might be able to get your
>Department of Highways or its equivalent to give you an estimate of the
>number of cars that travel over the bridge in a given year. Then identify
>the number per year blown off the bridge. And calculate the odds for
>whoever it is that now won't drive over it. Just so sie can at least
>recognize that this is an irrational fear.
>
>Madeleine "the bad news is that being too scared to drive over bridges is
>an early sign of agoraphobia" Page
That very much depends on the bridge. I'm amazed I haven't told
you some of my African bridge stories before. In the case of some
bridges in Zaire that I could mention being absolutely shit scared
after driving over a bridge is an early sign of the realisation
that one really is in a bad situation. In fact, realising that
one managed to stop on the last piece of planking on the bridge,
and that there is still 20 metres to go before land is nothing
compared to the realisation that there are no longer any planks
behind you either.
Derek "Fortunately only two planks were now in the river, the
other missing planks were being moved in front by helpful locals" Tearne
--
Derek Tearne. --- @URL Internet Consultants --- http://url.co.nz/
Khaleel Waheed
wrote:
>There are Maryland state troopers
>stationed at the Chesapeake Bay Bridge
Gee wileekers, I had always assumed that the Chesapeake Bay Bridge was
about a hundred miles away from Mary Land.
Or at least a bridge between Virginia's Eastern Shore and Virginia's
southside Hampton Roads.
But I could be wrong.
But I doubt it.
Khaleel Waheed
khaleelatpinndotnet
...
Khaleel Waheed
khaleelatpinndotnet
...
deke.sp...@generous.net
>Glenn "Anyone ever been blown on a bridge?" Dowdy
Probably.
Fairly frequently, one sees litter blown on off the road.
deacon "maybe there's a switch in the road" blues
Dan Hartung
wrote:
>Henrik Schmidt wrote:
>> kim...@aol.com wrote:
>> > >Please tell me where I can find a case of a car being blown off of
>> > >the Mackinac bridge.
><>
>> The worlds largest (longest)
>> suspension bridge is in Japan (I forget the name) and second
>> largest is
>> right here in li'l ol' Denmark. The Storebaelt Bridge,
>> opened last year,
>> exceeds the Mackinac Bridge's span by about 75 meters.
(Not, of course, in a single suspension span.)
>from :
>http://www.denmark.org/mermaid_June98/bridge.html
>
>"The Great Belt link is one of the world's largest bridge and tunnel
>projects. With a free span of 1,624 m, the 6.8 km long East Bridge is
>the world's second longest suspension bridge, only surpassed by the
[etc.]
What's interesting about this is that now you can travel overland
(auto or train) from the Continent to Copenhagen. And now that
planning (perhaps even construction?) has begun in earnest for the
Copenhagen-Malmo link [I personally have fond memories of a thoroughly
fog-enshrouded ferry ride], all of Scandinavia will be directly
accessible from Europe!
Dan Hartung
>Good lord. OK. Though I *still* wonder about Kim's assertion that it is
>truck drivers who avail themselves of the service. Somehow agoraphobia and
>truck driving seem like ill-assorted characteristics.
Ah, but truck driving and driver fatigue are intimately related
topics.
>[snip cites where legislators want improved safety in high winds because
>of risks to campers;
Oh, well, see, someone should tell them not to raise their tent on the
bridge. Solved.
a car being blown off the bridge (allegedly); bridge
>not being up to current safety standards]
>
>Good stuff, and I was perhaps too airy in saying that this was an
>irrational fear. But if the person *always* refuses to drive over the
>bridge, whatever sie is driving and whatever the wind conditions, I'd
>submit that it is irrational.
Okay, there's irrational fears, and there are phobias. Like you, I
scoff at an irrational fear ("The world will fall into chaos after the
Y2K bug hits!", "Don't get on an elevator with a black man, he might
say 'get down'") but respect a phobia (can't fly in an airplane, can't
speak in public, can't drive across an unreasonably long, straight
bridge). I know a guy whose wife always goes on nifty Caribbean
vacations -- with a girlfriend. He can't get on a plane. (Flew with
her, to Reno, once. The experience was so bad for both they won't even
consider repeating it!)
Henrik Schmidt
>
> >from :
> >http://www.denmark.org/mermaid_June98/bridge.html
> >
> >"The Great Belt link is one of the world's largest bridge and tunnel
> >projects. With a free span of 1,624 m, the 6.8 km long East Bridge is
> >the world's second longest suspension bridge, only surpassed by the
> [etc.]
>
> What's interesting about this is that now you can travel overland
> (auto or train) from the Continent to Copenhagen. And now that
> planning (perhaps even construction?) has begun in earnest for the
> Copenhagen-Malmo link [I personally have fond memories of a thoroughly
> fog-enshrouded ferry ride], all of Scandinavia will be directly
> accessible from Europe!
Oh, construction began years ago. Actually, the entire bridge/tunnel
complex is due to be finished in the summer of 2000. For more info,
check http://www.oresundskonsortiet.com/ (it's in English, even).
Right now, there's some talk of building a third connection from
Zealand, this time directly to Germany over the Femer Baelt. No
agreement has been reached with the Germans yet, though.
Henrik "Well connected" Schmidt
--
Remove DAMN.SPAM. from my address to reply
nat...@mof.gov.il
Brian Yeoh <by...@panix.com> wrote:
> I hate to say this, but I'd submit that it *is* rational for that marginal
> person. If their utility function is such that crossing a bridge imposes
> such a large disutility compared to other means of getting to where
> they're going, then it is perfectly rational for them to go by another
> route.
>
> This, of course, is economic rationality, where rational peepul are
> expected to do whatever gives them the most pleasure, strange as it may
> be.
I have to desagree with you. In most cases you'll find, that the same person
who is willing to pay whatever it takes just not to cross that bridge, would
willingly take other risks, much larger than this, not being ready to pay to
avoid them, thus contradicting it's own utility function, e. i. being
irrational.
Natasha "against all odds" Michaelov
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
H.W.M.
> Glenn "Anyone ever been blown on a bridge?" Dowdy
A pilot dead drunk off a ro-ro last August when the ship hit a rock.
--
Cheers,| The darkness must go down the river of night's dreaming.|
HWM | Flow morphia slow, let the sun and light come streaming.|
==> hen...@GNWmail.com & http://www.softavenue.fi/u/henry.w
cwp
> On 12 Jan 1999 15:55:34 GMT, bra...@panix.com (Bo Bradham) wrote:
> >: Professional bridge-crossers help those motorists who suffer
> > from acrophobia
>
um, acrophobia is a fear of heights.
cw "afraid of fear" p
Ray Depew
> That's what the problem was: certain wind
> > velocities set up oscillations in the bridge, and it was those
> > oscillations that finally tore the bridge apart.
> Well, yes and no.
[vortex shedding, among other things]
> since I'm not an engineer,
> I'll simply say that the bridge collapsed because it was poorly designed
> for the environment.
I think you're right. I'll have to go back and reread some stuff.
Regards
Ray "not *that* kind of engineer" Depew
winston smith
>anywho, that same night a woman in her Yugo was blown off of the bridge.
>her car was picked up and tossed down into the lake below (R.I.P.) with out
>ever touching the railings or suspension cables. so it can happen, but...
>
>1) she was in a tiny damned car.
>2) there are portions of the Mackinac bridge that are metal grillwork
>rather than solid metal or pavement, which might have allowed an updraft to
>occur that wouldn't on other overpasses or bridges.
>
>btw: the Mackinac bridge's speed limit is shown on digital signs so that it
>can be changed easily. the speed limit drops lower in windy/stormy weather.
i don't see how lowering the speed limit would have saved that yugo...unless
it was a lateral speed limit i suppose.
winston.
Brian Yeoh
> In article <Pine.GSU.4.05.990112...@panix3.panix.com>,
> Brian Yeoh <by...@panix.com> wrote:
> > I hate to say this, but I'd submit that it *is* rational for that marginal
> > person. If their utility function is such that crossing a bridge imposes
> > such a large disutility compared to other means of getting to where
> > they're going, then it is perfectly rational for them to go by another
> > route.
> >
> > This, of course, is economic rationality, where rational peepul are
> > expected to do whatever gives them the most pleasure, strange as it may
> > be.
> I have to desagree with you. In most cases you'll find, that the same person
> who is willing to pay whatever it takes just not to cross that bridge, would
> willingly take other risks, much larger than this, not being ready to pay to
> avoid them, thus contradicting it's own utility function, e. i. being
> irrational.
Not quite. The disutility that the bridge crossing costs the individual
may be much more than that of some other, more risky activity. You may be
thinking of actual risk being the deciding component; i.e. the higher the
risk of injury/death, the more disutility. But that ignores the percieved
risk component; while swimming off the Great Barrier Reef with Valerie
Taylor may be less dangerous than taking a walk down to the corner
grocery, the thought of being eaten alive by a fucking great big shark
causes more disutility.
It all boils down to individual preference, really. Which as we all know,
is unquantifiable, though that's not necessarily a theory-killer.
Brian "converted from the church of Krugman to that of Nash" Yeoh
Phil Edwards
wrote:
>On 12 Jan 1999, Madeleine Page wrote:
>> Bo Bradham <bra...@panix.com> wrote:
>> : Madeleine Page <mp...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> if the person *always* refuses to drive over the
>> bridge, whatever sie is driving and whatever the wind conditions, I'd
>> submit that it is irrational. If ten thousand trips per month are made,
>> and one car is blown off the bridge every two years, then, um... Well, the
>> odds of being blown off -- especially in calm weather -- are about the
>> same as the odds of winning the lottery.
>I hate to say this, but I'd submit that it *is* rational for that marginal
>person. If their utility function is such that crossing a bridge imposes
>such a large disutility compared to other means of getting to where
>they're going, then it is perfectly rational for them to go by another
>route.
>
>This, of course, is economic rationality, where rational peepul are
>expected to do whatever gives them the most pleasure, strange as it may
>be. When applied to the larger populace, such an action is irrational,
>but for that one individual it is perfectly rational.
A definition of rationality which encompasses whatever an individual
chooses to do, think or believe so as to appease whatever demons they
may have on their back is rather, er, inclusive, don't you think? One
wonders how and when individual *ir*rationality could possibly arise.
Phil "irrational? no, I *wanted* to do it!" Edwards
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth/
"The folkloric result of unnatural acts is injury,
madness or death." - JoAnne Schmitz
Laurence Doering
Khaleel Waheed <sp...@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:16:22 GMT, dwi...@sprynet.com (Dave Wilton)
>wrote:
>
>>There are Maryland state troopers
>>stationed at the Chesapeake Bay Bridge
>
>Gee wileekers, I had always assumed that the Chesapeake Bay Bridge was
>about a hundred miles away from Mary Land.
>Or at least a bridge between Virginia's Eastern Shore and Virginia's
>southside Hampton Roads.
>
>But I could be wrong.
>
>But I doubt it.
Famous last words, my dear sir. You may be somewhat discomfited to
know that the bridge/tunnel complex to which you refer is not the
only Chesapeake Bay Bridge, but one of two.
The second straddles the upper bay between Annapolis and Kent Island,
carrying US Routes 50 and 301 between the Eastern Shore of Maryland
and the greater Baltimore-Washington metroplex.
Although Maryland's Bay Bridge is shorter, I respectfully submit
it's by far the most heavily used of the two, since it regularly
accomodates hordes of vacation-starved Baltimoreans headed for
Ocean City (or vice versa), while the only traffic on the Chesapeake
Bay Bridge/Tunnel whatchamahoosie is people who, for whatever reason,
are misguided enough to want to go from the Hampton Roads area over
to Accomack County.
Larry "thy gleaming sword shall never rust" Doering
JoAnne Schmitz
>There are Maryland state troopers stationed at the Chesapeake Bay
>Bridge and among their duties is to drive terrified motorists across
>the bridge. That's not their only job though.
Yes, later they drive them back again.
JoAnne "silliness I revel in it" Schmitz
------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------------
"Luckily I didn't have any baseball cards for her to | http://www.urbanlegends.com
throw away while I was in the USAF. War is hell." | http://www.snopes.com
-casady, in alt.folklore.urban | http://www.dejanews.com
JoAnne Schmitz
>On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:16:22 GMT, dwi...@sprynet.com (Dave Wilton)
>wrote:
>
>>There are Maryland state troopers
>>stationed at the Chesapeake Bay Bridge
>
>Gee wileekers, I had always assumed that the Chesapeake Bay Bridge was
>about a hundred miles away from Mary Land.
>Or at least a bridge between Virginia's Eastern Shore and Virginia's
>southside Hampton Roads.
I think Dave was referring to the William Preston Lane Jr. Memorial Bridge. But
in Maryland it's usually referred to as the Chesapeake Bay Bridge or just Bay
Bridge.
From http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/mdmanual/01glance/html/bridges.html :
"Chesapeake Bay Bridge. The William Preston Lane, Jr., Memorial Bridge
(Chesapeake Bay Bridge) spans 4.2 miles across the middle of Chesapeake Bay.
Opened in 1952, the Bridge transformed access to the eastern shore of the State.
A second parallel Bay Bridge opened in 1973."
JoAnne "199 miles to Ocean City" Schmitz
Brian Yeoh
As far as I am aware, given that definition, an individual cannot be
irrational with regards to himself. Compared to any one else, however, he
can be called irrational. Note the part which says
"When applied to the larger populace, such an action is irrational"
Presumably because others have different utility functions.
Yehuda Naveh
>
> A definition of rationality which encompasses whatever an individual
> chooses to do, think or believe so as to appease whatever demons they
> may have on their back is rather, er, inclusive, don't you think? One
> wonders how and when individual *ir*rationality could possibly arise.
>
Yehuda
Alex Elliott
>
>I sometimes have occasion to drive over a much shorter steel-grid bridge
>(on Connecticut Rte 15 [aka Wilbur Cross/Merritt Parkway], across the
>Housatonic River).
Officially named the Sikorsky Bridge (you can see the Sikorsky Aircraft
headquarters from the bridge on the west side of the river), frequently
called "the singing bridge" because of the merry tone emitted by your
tires as you drive across it.
>Even under optimal weather
>conditions, i.e., no wind or precipitation, the primary sensation involved
>in driving across this bridge is imminent loss of control.
I think this is primarily because the grooves in your tires tend to line
up with the metal grating. Because each panel is not precisely lined up
with the next one, your wheels jerk very slightly to the side as the tires
maintain their alignment. This results in a very slight, erratic
side-to-side motion that makes people antsy.
Almost everyone says, "I *hate* that bridge! I feel like I'm going to
go right off into the river!" yet no one can ever cite even a rumor of
an accident.
>Alice "if I mention that the bridge is at Stratford, is that an official
>thread tie-in[TM]?" Faber
Only half of the bridge is in Stratford. The other half is in Milford,
a city which contains a mall that has had both the man-in-the-parking-
lot-asking-for-help-but-has-evil-things-in-his-trunk rumor and the man-
hides-under-cars-to-slash-ankles rumor vectored about it.
Alex "a mall and its nice visitors" Elliott
Mark E. Smith
Free-rangin' Chicken <da_bender@remove_this_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> The Yugo was boxy, tall for its width, and it had very skinny
> little tires. I'm not trying to make a case for the Yugo, it
> was a horrible car. But I do get tired of hearing that smaller
> cars are somehow inherently dangerous.
You're probably implying "more dangerous," which to me is a key
part of the question. To keep matters more clear in my own mind,
it helps to remember that all motor vehicles are dangerous, by
virtue of the job they're expected to perform. It's all a
question of what kinds of danger, in what amounts, you're willing
to be exposed to. When you put flesh and blood critters like us
into a large motorized container and hurtle them down the road at
highway speeds, you can anticipate a certain amount of serious
trouble to result.
I assume that the laws of physics that describe mass,
acceleration etc. apply as well to automobiles as to anything
else. My observations of common driving behavior give a strong
impression that people tend not to appreciate the magnitude of
the physical forces involved.
--
Mark E. Smith <msm...@lvnworth.com>
Khaleel Waheed
wrote:
>Famous last words, my dear sir. You may be somewhat discomfited to
>know that the bridge/tunnel complex to which you refer is not the
>only Chesapeake Bay Bridge, but one of two.
Copyright infringement, copyright infringement!
Wait a minute...I like that idea.
People who live in <your city> are _______.
What do you mean I'm wrong,
right down the road in THIS <your city>..........
>...while the only traffic on the Chesapeake
>Bay Bridge/Tunnel whatchamahoosie is people who, for whatever reason,
>are misguided enough to want to go from the Hampton Roads area over
>to Accomack County.
You have that backwards
Khaleel Waheed
khaleelatpinndotnet
...
Martin Hardgrave
<Henrik....@DAMN.SPAM.hh.hosp.dk> writes
>Henrik "I know it pains the Americans to not have the biggest whatever
>in the world, but there you have it" Schmidt
And the top of the bridge is the highest point in Denmark, I believe.
--
Martin Hardgrave
Martin Hardgrave
<mp...@panix.com> writes
>Sometimes I'm in the mood to work around to a plural, sometimes I'm up for
>typing he/she, and sometimes I use "hir" and "sie". None is ideal, and
>which I use depends on my mood. Anything but the generic "he" is fine by
>me.
"they" and "their"?
--
Martin Hardgrave
Phil Edwards
wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Phil Edwards wrote:
>> A definition of rationality which encompasses whatever an individual
>> chooses to do, think or believe so as to appease whatever demons they
>> may have on their back is rather, er, inclusive, don't you think? One
>> wonders how and when individual *ir*rationality could possibly arise.
>
>As far as I am aware, given that definition, an individual cannot be
>irrational with regards to himself.
There goes psychotherapy.
Phil "feeling sudden urge to set followups" Edwards
Ben Walsh
"They" and "their" are third person plural. We're looking for a singular,
here.
ben "a singular choice of words" w.
Lee Rudolph
I bought my car voluntarily.
Lee "my, how example sentence stick with one long after one has
forgotten what precisely they were meant to exemplify" Rudolph
Lee Rudolph
>it's by far the most heavily used of the two, since it regularly
>accomodates hordes of vacation-starved Baltimoreans headed for
>Ocean City (or vice versa)
My word. Let me know sometime when Ocean City is heading for
the hordes of vacation-starved Baltimoreans. I want to see
how *it* negotiates the bridge, even with Our Friend the State
Trooper on hand.
>Larry "thy gleaming sword shall never rust" Doering
Lee "patriotic? Gore?" Rudolph
alice faber
>In article <77gath$9dj$1...@news.panix.com>, alice faber <afa...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>I sometimes have occasion to drive over a much shorter steel-grid bridge
>>(on Connecticut Rte 15 [aka Wilbur Cross/Merritt Parkway], across the
>>Housatonic River).
>>Even under optimal weather
>>conditions, i.e., no wind or precipitation, the primary sensation involved
>>in driving across this bridge is imminent loss of control.
>Almost everyone says, "I *hate* that bridge! I feel like I'm going to
>go right off into the river!" yet no one can ever cite even a rumor of
>an accident.
I have a friend who does a wonderful rant about how when the bridge
was renovated about 15 years ago, it was replaced with *another* steel
grid bridge. (I assume this is because such a bridge weighs less than
a conventional paved bridge would, and the extant pilings wouldn't
support a conventional bridge.)
I've never felt as if I was going to end up in the river. I've often
been absolutely convinced that I was going to drift into the next lane
or carom off the side guard rail. Given some of the cars that zip
past me with considerably greater momentum, I've often wondered that
there are no reported or rumored cases of cars flying off the bridge.
>>Alice "if I mention that the bridge is at Stratford, is that an official
>>thread tie-in[TM]?" Faber
>Only half of the bridge is in Stratford. The other half is in Milford,
>a city which contains a mall that has had both the man-in-the-parking-
>lot-asking-for-help-but-has-evil-things-in-his-trunk rumor and the man-
>hides-under-cars-to-slash-ankles rumor vectored about it.
>Alex "a mall and its nice visitors" Elliott
Alice "and if one such vehicle towing a porta-potty ends up under the
bridge, john-car low; may not even be recovered" Faber
Madeleine Page
: Madeleine Page <mp...@panix.com> writes
:>Sometimes I'm in the mood to work around to a plural, sometimes I'm up for
:>typing he/she, and sometimes I use "hir" and "sie". None is ideal, and
:>which I use depends on my mood. Anything but the generic "he" is fine by
:>me.
: "they" and "their"?
That'd be why I wrote "Sometimes I'm in the mood to work around to a
plural" in the first line you quoted there.
Madeleine "surprised, etc." Page
Eric M. Fesh
: From genuine curiosity, do you have any sort of cite for this most unusual
: profession? (I'm trying to imagine the kid who's asked what hir dad or
: mum does for a living... what does sie say?).
:
: By the way, for the original poster: you might be able to get your
: Department of Highways or its equivalent to give you an estimate of the
: number of cars that travel over the bridge in a given year. Then identify
: the number per year blown off the bridge. And calculate the odds for
: whoever it is that now won't drive over it. Just so sie can at least
: recognize that this is an irrational fear.
Wow! Non gender-specific pronouns! I thought those were deemed
unworkable, although the ones I heard about were "te" and "ter" or
something like that...
Eric "thread drift? try derailment!" Fesh
--
*************************************************************************
Eric M. Fesh: * "Napalm: nine out of ten Third-
em...@ra.msstate.edu * World children say it stings
* reeeeal bad." -Tim Hale
*************************************************************************
Check out my web page at http://www2.msstate.edu/~emf1 !!
*************************************************************************
Robert Allison
Machelle Simon-Grech <mgr...@ford.com> wrote:
> ... the Mackinaw Bridge ...
and
In article <01be3e4b$bbdacaa0$cd5a...@rm49595.tdsnet.com>,
"jon hawkins" <prax...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ... the Mackinac bridge ...
I've seen this bridge's name speeled both ways, but I was taught that it
was always to be pronounced as mac-kin-awe. Can anyone from that area:
1) confirm or deny the pronounciation; and
2) explain why, if it is so?
Robert "in-awe, actually" Allison
--
Robert Allison
r...@bofh.org.uk
Edward Rice
kim...@aol.com wrote:
> Yes. It happened. But ya gotta understand about both the bridge (is it
> still the longest suspension bridge in the world?)...
It is not. The Golden Gate, completed twenty years before the Mackinac, is
400 feet longer (measured by main span). The flat-out longest bridge in
the US that I can think of is about forty miles long, but it's basically
just raised highway through flooded swamp, nothing you'd think was an
engineering marvel to look at. It carries I-10 west from Baton Rouge to
Lafayette, in Louisiana. (ObTWIAVBP: a southern US state consisting mostly
of Mississippi River and Cajun food.)
Dan Hartung
>In some article or another,
> Machelle Simon-Grech <mgr...@ford.com> wrote:
>> ... the Mackinaw Bridge ...
>
>and
>
>In article <01be3e4b$bbdacaa0$cd5a...@rm49595.tdsnet.com>,
> "jon hawkins" <prax...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> ... the Mackinac bridge ...
>
>I've seen this bridge's name speeled both ways, but I was taught that it
>was always to be pronounced as mac-kin-awe. Can anyone from that area:
>1) confirm or deny the pronounciation; and
>2) explain why, if it is so?
The name of the bridge is "Mackinac Bridge". The name of the body of
water is crosses is "the Straits of Mackinac". A nearby island is
"Mackinac Island" (and has a town of that name, too). Nearby is the
historic "Fort Michilimackinac".
The municipality on the south end, however, is "Mackinaw City". The
pronunciation, in almost all cases, is usually "mac kin awe" as you
note, although I'm told locals substitute "mac kin ack" for some and
not for others.
The why, of course, is that the names come down from French voyageurs
and missionaries, and "mac kin awe" was much closer to the original
French pronunciation.
Compare nearby "Cheboygan" (sheh boy gan") county, "Sault Ste. Marie"
(soo saint marie, vs. a more accurate soh saint marie), and just for
validation that French is not the only language with problems, nearby
"Cockburn Island" (which should be coh burn).
Dan Hartung
<Henrik....@DAMN.SPAM.hh.hosp.dk> wrote:
>> What's interesting about this is that now you can travel overland
>> (auto or train) from the Continent to Copenhagen. And now that
>> planning (perhaps even construction?) has begun in earnest for the
>> Copenhagen-Malmo link [I personally have fond memories of a thoroughly
>> fog-enshrouded ferry ride], all of Scandinavia will be directly
>> accessible from Europe!
>
>Oh, construction began years ago. Actually, the entire bridge/tunnel
>complex is due to be finished in the summer of 2000. For more info,
>check http://www.oresundskonsortiet.com/ (it's in English, even).
Wow! Thanks for the link, I was unable to find anything concrete when
I last researched this sometime last year.
>Right now, there's some talk of building a third connection from
>Zealand, this time directly to Germany over the Femer Baelt. No
>agreement has been reached with the Germans yet, though.
Worried about us Swedes, of course. How touching. ;-)
Dan Hartung
>Madeleine Page (mp...@panix.com) wrote:
>: From genuine curiosity, do you have any sort of cite for this most unusual
>: profession? (I'm trying to imagine the kid who's asked what hir dad or
>: mum does for a living... what does sie say?).
>:
>: By the way, for the original poster: you might be able to get your
>: Department of Highways or its equivalent to give you an estimate of the
>: number of cars that travel over the bridge in a given year. Then identify
>: the number per year blown off the bridge. And calculate the odds for
>: whoever it is that now won't drive over it. Just so sie can at least
>: recognize that this is an irrational fear.
>
>Wow! Non gender-specific pronouns! I thought those were deemed
>unworkable, although the ones I heard about were "te" and "ter" or
>something like that...
A bit late to these discussions, eh?
Edward Rice
Ray Depew <ray_...@hp.com> wrote:
> I think it was the Tacoma Narrows bridge. In the movie I saw, the
> roadbed was oscillating wildly, but the center stripe on the roadbed
> wasn't moving - in fact, the bridge's designer was moseying towards the
> camera along the center stripe, smiling and wearing a heavy overcoat
> (cold wind, I guess) while the roadbed heaved up and down on either side
> of him.
The bridge's designer was Moisseiff, but the fellow moseying was probably
either Kenneth Arkin, chairman of the Washington State Toll Bridge
Authority, or Professor F. B. Farquharson of U.Washington, in charge of a
then-ongoing study into the bridge's various problems.
> It was a steady wind, too. That's what the problem was: certain wind
> velocities set up oscillations in the bridge, and it was those
> oscillations that finally tore the bridge apart.
Yup. Mario Salvadori, in his excellent "Why Buildings Fall Down," devotes
eleven pages to Galloping Gertie. He indicates that the bridge was
especially risky because it was very thin compared to the fairly long span,
because it had solid box trusses which did not permit the wind to pass
through (the Mackinac Bridge allows the wind to pass through, but...), and
because it had been built very, very light. The same designer, Moisseiff,
had been consulting engineer for the Golden Gate, the Bronx-Whitestone, the
San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge, and had also designed the Manhattan
Bridge and the Ben Franklin Bridge (New York and Philadelphia,
respectively).
Salvadori suggests four solutions to the problem: everybody run right out
and see if your local bridges have these fixes installed yet! Opening the
stiffeners to allow the wind to pass through, a larger ratio of roadway
width to span length, increasing the stiffness of the trusses or girders to
bending, damping of the oscillations at either the bridge structure or the
span.
Salvadori says that on September 3, 1943, "three years after the failure of
his bridge, Leon Moisseiff died of a broken heart."
Kim...@aol.com
> > still the longest suspension bridge in the world?)...
>It is not. The Golden Gate, completed twenty years before the Mackinac, is
>400 feet longer
knows how they measured to get that.
The flat-out longest bridge in
>the US that I can think of is about forty miles long, but it's basically
>just raised highway through flooded swamp, nothing you'd think was an
>engineering marvel to look at. It carries I-10 west from Baton Rouge to
>Lafayette, in Louisiana.
causeway on Mobile Bay is *way* cooler, IMHO, then that b-b-b-bridge next
to it.)
-- Kim
Henrik Schmidt
You know, it probably is. I never thought of that.
ObChutzpah: One of the highest (though not *the* highest) natural points
in Denmark, all of 147 meters, is called ... Sky Mountain.
Henrik "Or rather, Himmelbjerget, but not many of you would get it then,
would you?" Schmidt
--
Remove DAMN.SPAM. from my address to reply
Machelle Simon-Grech
..... if your not from the area it's spelled and pronounced Mackinaw.
Don't know the legand behind the different spelling, but I think it is
so we can tell the out of staters from the Yoopers (1)/Trolls(2). There
is also Mackinac Island and Mackinac City.
(1) Those Michiganians who live North of the bridge
(2) Those Michiganians who live South of the bridge
Machelle "a troll myself" Grech
Robert Allison wrote:
>
> In some article or another,
> Machelle Simon-Grech <mgr...@ford.com> wrote:
> > ... the Mackinaw Bridge ...
>
> and
>
> In article <01be3e4b$bbdacaa0$cd5a...@rm49595.tdsnet.com>,
> "jon hawkins" <prax...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > ... the Mackinac bridge ...
>
> I've seen this bridge's name speeled both ways, but I was taught that it
> was always to be pronounced as mac-kin-awe. Can anyone from that area:
> 1) confirm or deny the pronounciation; and
> 2) explain why, if it is so?
>
> Robert "in-awe, actually" Allison
>
> --
> Robert Allison
> r...@bofh.org.uk
--
Machelle Simon-Grech |The opinions above are mine|
Ford Motor Company |and only mine. They have |
Visteon - Glass Division |nothing to do with that of |
mgr...@ford.com |my employeer's! |
Go Wings! 97 & 98 Stanley Cup Winners!
Nick Spalding
> Well if your a Michiganian it's spelled Mackinac (pronounced Mackinaw)
> ..... if your not from the area it's spelled and pronounced Mackinaw.
> Don't know the legand behind the different spelling, but I think it is
> so we can tell the out of staters from the Yoopers (1)/Trolls(2). There
> is also Mackinac Island and Mackinac City.
>
> (1) Those Michiganians who live North of the bridge
> (2) Those Michiganians who live South of the bridge
^^^^^^^^
You mispledded under.
--
Nick Spalding
Aaron Borgman
:
: > Well if your a Michiganian it's spelled Mackinac (pronounced Mackinaw)
: > ..... if your not from the area it's spelled and pronounced Mackinaw.
: > Don't know the legand behind the different spelling, but I think it is
: > so we can tell the out of staters from the Yoopers (1)/Trolls(2). There
"fudgies" [3]
: > is also Mackinac Island and Mackinac City.
: >
: > (1) Those Michiganians who live North of the bridge
: > (2) Those Michiganians who live South of the bridge
: ^^^^^^^^
[3] Out of staters are known as fudgies due to their proclivity
for purchasing mass quantities of Mackinac island fudge.
--
Aaron Borgman CRU Timing Tiger
abor...@ichips.intel.com
RA2-4 Pole J9
phone: 613-3714
John Francis
JoAnne Schmitz <jsch...@qis.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:16:22 GMT, dwi...@sprynet.com (Dave Wilton) wrote:
>
>>There are Maryland state troopers stationed at the Chesapeake Bay
>>Bridge and among their duties is to drive terrified motorists across
>>the bridge. That's not their only job though.
>
>Yes, later they drive them back again.
I'd have thought there was an opportunity here.
Drive *half* way across, then stop and renegotiate terms.
Bruce Tindall
>There are Maryland state troopers stationed at the Chesapeake Bay
>Bridge and among their duties is to drive terrified motorists across
>the bridge.
Which Chesapeake Bay Bridge is that? If it's the big Bridge-and-Tunnel
doohickey (US Highway 13), having Maryland troopers there would be very
odd, since it's entirely within the Commonwealth of Virginia.
B "the tyrant's heel is on thy shore" T
--
Bruce Tindall :: tin...@panix.com
Paraic O'Donnell
<hmou...@mailexcite.com> wrote:
>Stumbled today across an interesting URL,
>http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rbeard/
>whose author argues that pronouns belong to a class of "words" he calls
>"morphemes". If you believe him, then you can't make up morphemes as
>you go. (I think I only agree partially, seeing a distinction between
>Maddy's usage and the gender markers used in grammar.)
Hmm. I think Helge is munging slightly a page which is itself a
slightly confusing presentation of the concept of the morpheme. (The
link is to the site of a Robert Beard, professor of Russian at
Bucknell University.)
Morphology is the branch of linguistics concerned with how we combine
sub-lexical components (word 'stems' and 'roots') to generate words.
For example, '-ism' and '-ation' exist only as morphemes, though whole
words (like the 'nation' in 'national') are, of course, also treated
as morphemes in cases where they can be combined with other morphemes
to create other words. The former are known as 'bound' morphemes, the
latter--<clunk, clunk>--free morphemes.
I think Beard is just rehearsing the fundamental point that neologisms
[1] invariably entail the recombination of existing morphemes, and
that entirely new morphemes are rarely generated. Pronouns are only
morphemes insofar as they can be combined with others to generate new
words. The term 'morpheme' doesn't refer to a class of words whose
membership is restricted by its grammatical function, which is not to
say that many morphemes, like the plural-forming suffix -s, don't
*have* grammatical functions. Having said that, many others ('anti-',
for instance) have exclusively semantic functions.
To my knowledge, there isn't a linguistic term for Madeleine's usage.
It amounts to a 'synthetic' form of neologism which doesn't follow the
morphological rules of English (remember, these rules are instinctive;
morphology just describes them). Linguistics doesn't have many terms
for phenomena speakers don't naturally produce.
The cleverness on which 'Jabberwocky' hinges is its sensitivity to
English morphology; Carroll's plausible Anglo-Saxonesque (ha!)
confections may not be English words, but they certainly *could* be.
That's because we're hard-wired with the necessary rules to the point
that the generation and recognition processes can take place
independently of meaning. The same is true at sentence-level.
If Madeleine's neutral forms sound grating, it's because, as solitary
'pseudo-morphemes', they don't exploit our innate sympathy towards
correct recombinations.
Where was I? Oh, yeah: I just wanted to point out that, while Helge is
right about our not making up morphemes as we go, nothing unique to
pronouns is at issue there and that, theoretically, *all* words belong
to the class of morphemes.
Paraic "mighty morpheme power" O'Donnell
1. And I'm not just talking about the new-words-for-new-gadgets notion
of neologisms that dominates Sunday supplements; for the purposes of
morphology, we all generate neologisms, though they may not gain
currency. Like when you simply and unselfconsiously add the (bound)
morpheme '-ish' to a noun.
Machelle Simon-Grech
much controversey after the last vehicle (a bronco with a suicidal
driver) went over the side. It seems the guardrails on the bridge are
below standard height for bridge guardrails. Since they are so short
they tend to launch vehicles over the side when hit instead of stopping
the vehicle.
deke.sp...@generous.net wrote:
>
> On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:45:59 GMT, Free-rangin' Chicken
> <da_bender@remove_this_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >> Except for the Yugo that WAS blown off the Mackinac Bridge. (And thanks
> >> for getting the correct date. 1989 instead of 1990, as my faulty memory
> >> had it.) As I recall (always a dangerous phrase) the Yugo was the first
> >> vehicle ever to go over the side of that bridge.
>
> >It went over the side when the driver overcorrected, but it wasn't BLOWN over.
> >Important difference. The only vehicles to be blown off a bridge, so far as I
> >could tell, were much taller ones.
>
> OK, I can buy that. She overcorrected.
>
> Uh, what kind of overcorrection do you have to do to get your car to jump over a
> fairly high guardrail without even touching it?
>
> deacon "better get an answer before I drive again...." blues
>
> ------------------------
> Let love find you! http://generous.net
> A list for flirting generousSing...@onelist.com
> Over The Hill Gang generousSingle...@onelist.com
> College and younger generousTee...@onelist.com
> Lots of Personal Ads generousProfi...@onelist.com
> If it's not 'just the way you are', it's not love....
Brian Yeoh
> In article <36b4fa4f....@news.digex.net>,
> JoAnne Schmitz <jsch...@qis.net> wrote:
> >>There are Maryland state troopers stationed at the Chesapeake Bay
> >>Bridge and among their duties is to drive terrified motorists across
> >Yes, later they drive them back again.
> I'd have thought there was an opportunity here.
> Drive *half* way across, then stop and renegotiate terms.
If this was an ideal world, that information would have been priced into
the terms from the start.
Brian "no reason, just felt like calling this up" Yeoh
H Gilmer
: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:29:54 -0700, Helge Moulding
: <hmou...@mailexcite.com> wrote:
: >Stumbled today across an interesting URL,
: >http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rbeard/
: Hmm. I think Helge is munging slightly a page which is itself a
: slightly confusing presentation of the concept of the morpheme. (The
: link is to the site of a Robert Beard, professor of Russian at
: Bucknell University.)
: Morphology is the branch of linguistics concerned with how we combine
: sub-lexical components (word 'stems' and 'roots') to generate words.
: For example, '-ism' and '-ation' exist only as morphemes, though whole
: words (like the 'nation' in 'national') are, of course, also treated
: as morphemes in cases where they can be combined with other morphemes
: to create other words. The former are known as 'bound' morphemes, the
: latter--<clunk, clunk>--free morphemes.
Free morphemes are still morphemes even if they're the only morpheme
in the word. "Morpheme" doesn't mean "combined with something else".
Beard reserves the use of "morpheme" for word bits with syntactic
content and uses "lexeme" for word bits with lexical content,
specifically for noun, adjective, and verb stems. I won't say he's
wrong, but I will point out that this is not the standard usage. Both
of Beard's categories are considered to be morphemes by lots 'n' lots
of linguists.
No, wait, he's just plain wrong. I just read his drivel about sound
variation. The man should stick to teaching Russian. And learn to
run his web page through a spellchecker.
: Where was I? Oh, yeah: I just wanted to point out that, while Helge is
: right about our not making up morphemes as we go, nothing unique to
: pronouns is at issue there and that, theoretically, *all* words belong
: to the class of morphemes.
All monomorphemic words belong to the class of morphemes. Some words
have more than one morpheme in them.
But where Helge & Beard are on the right track is the notion of "open"
vs. "closed" classes. Most neologisms come from adding something to
an open category (following the language's phonological rules, of
course) and then doing the usual thing with whatever closed-class
affixes need to go with it. It's definitely weirder to make up a
closed-class item. That class is *closed*, dammit!
Hg
Laurence Doering
Lee Rudolph <lrud...@panix.com> wrote:
>>Although Maryland's Bay Bridge is shorter, I respectfully submit
>>it's by far the most heavily used of the two, since it regularly
>>accomodates hordes of vacation-starved Baltimoreans headed for
>>Ocean City (or vice versa)
>
>the hordes of vacation-starved Baltimoreans. I want to see
>how *it* negotiates the bridge, even with Our Friend the State
>Trooper on hand.
Now you're just being silly.
>>Larry "thy gleaming sword shall never rust" Doering
>Lee "patriotic? Gore?" Rudolph
Yup. For the edification (and probable boredom) of the
non-Marylanders out there, it's a line from "Maryland, My
Maryland", a bloodthirsty little song written as a pro-
secessionist polemic by one James Ryder Randall in 1861,
following the riots in Baltimore when angry mobs attacked
Union soldiers headed through town on their way to defend
Washington. The song is as follows (to the tune of
"O Tannenbaum":)
The despot's heel is on thy shore
Maryland, my Maryland!
His torch is at thy temple door
Maryland, my Maryland!
Avenge the patriotic gore
That flecked the streets of Baltimore,
And be the battle queen of yore
Maryland, my Maryland!
Hark to an exiled son's appeal
Maryland, my Maryland!
My Mother State, to thee I kneel
Maryland, my Maryland!
For life or death, for woe or weal,
Thy peerless chivalry reveal,
And gird thy beauteous limbs with steel
Maryland, my Maryland!
Thou wilt not cower in the dust
Maryland, my Maryland!
Thy gleaming sword shall never rust
Maryland, my Maryland!
Remember Carroll's sacred trust,
Remember Howard's warlike thrust
And all thy slumbers with the just
Maryland, my Maryland!
Come! 'tis the red dawn of the day
Maryland, my Maryland!
Come! with thy panoplied array
Maryland, my Maryland!
With Ringgold's spirit for the fray,
With Watson's blood at Monterey,
With fearless Lowe and dashing May
Maryland, my Maryland!
Dear mother, burst the tyrant's chain
Maryland, my Maryland!
Virginia should not call in vain
Maryland, my Maryland!
She meets her sisters on the plain,
"Sic Semper!" 'tis the proud refrain
That baffles minions back amain
Maryland, my Maryland!
(repeat last four bars as)
Arise in majesty again
Maryland, my Maryland!
It didn't work very well, since Maryland stayed in the
Union instead of joining the Confederacy, but it became
the state song anyway. Oddly enough, the State of Maryland
web page that mentions the song includes a portrait of
the author, but omits the lyrics. I'm not sure what it
is about Maryland that leads people to write almost
unsingable patriotic songs set to older tunes (viz.
Francis Scott Key's mangling of "To Anacreon in Heaven") -
maybe it's something in the water.
To date, all attempts to change Maryland's state song to
something more innocuous have failed.
Larry
"I like the 'gird thy beauteous limbs with steel' bit"
Doering
Note: The Civil War song lyrics web page at
http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/civilwar.html
has a version of "Maryland, My Maryland" with four extra verses,
which sound like they were added later by Confederates who were
hoping against hope that Maryland would secede after all ("She
is not dead, nor deaf, nor dumb;/Huzza! She spurns the Northern
scum/She breathes! She burns! She'll come! She'll come!/Maryland,
my Maryland!"). It also includes the lyrics for a four-verse
parody of the song in the following vein:
The Rebel feet are on our shore
Maryland, my Maryland!
I smell 'em half a mile or more
Maryland, my Maryland!
Their shockless hordes are at my door,
Their drunken generals on my floor,
What now can sweeten Baltimore?
Maryland, my Maryland!
Martin Hardgrave
<mp...@panix.com> writes
of your many options for a plural. It would also have helped to have
read your post more carefully, but I only have time to spend a couple of
hours a day in AFU.
--
Martin Hardgrave
Helge Moulding
> I won't say he's wrong, but I will point out that this is not the
> standard usage. Both of Beard's categories are considered to be
> morphemes by lots 'n' lots of linguists.
I'm no linguist (and I gather it shows), but Beard made sense in that
there is a difference between those parts of language that do the
grammar bit, and those that do the naming bit. I was familiar with that
stuff from Pinker's _Language Instinct_, and Beard's terminology seemed
to fit right in.
If most linguists give the parts the same names, then maybe Beard is
onto something. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to give the same
name to two functionally different things.
> No, wait, he's just plain wrong. I just read his drivel about sound
> variation.
Disagreement in one area invalidates all other areas? I'm not sure
that's a useful approach to this sort of thing.
--
Helge "If you agree in one area, that validates all other areas?"
Moulding
mailto:hmou...@mailexcite.com Just another guy
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1401 with a weird name
Phil Edwards
<ben_...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>Martin Hardgrave wrote in message ...
>>In article <77g5lc$7o9$2...@news.panix.com>, Madeleine Page
>><mp...@panix.com> writes
>>>Sometimes I'm in the mood to work around to a plural, sometimes I'm up for
>>>typing he/she, and sometimes I use "hir" and "sie". None is ideal, and
>>>which I use depends on my mood. Anything but the generic "he" is fine by
>>>me.
>>
>>"they" and "their"?
>
>"They" and "their" are third person plural. We're looking for a singular,
>here.
(Pauses to check headers. Nope, all clear. Hmm. Oh well, here goes.)
"They" is in common use as an ungendered third person singular
pronoun, used in the same way as "he or she" or Madeleine's "sie"[1]
("anyone who's coming should bring their umbrella"). The only real
problem with it is the reflexive - "themselves" is misleading, but not
everyone likes "themself". I think this is what Martin H. was getting
at; Madeleine's reference to "work[ing] around to a plural" sounds
more like using recasting the sentence so as to use a plural, as in
"all those who are coming should bring their umbrellas".
[1] Not implying Madeleine invented it; however, not having seen it
anywhere else I'm not able to say "the 'sie' usage popularised by
leading feminists such as Camille Paglia[2]", or whatever it might be.
[2] I was misinformed.
Phil "I've said it before and I'll say it again, une personne qui se
croit folle peu^t etre la victime d'une ide/e sociale de la folie"
Edwards
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth/
"The folkloric result of unnatural acts is injury,
madness or death." - JoAnne Schmitz
Tony Sweeney
> Martin Hardgrave wrote in message ...
> >In article <77g5lc$7o9$2...@news.panix.com>, Madeleine Page
> ><mp...@panix.com> writes
> >>Sometimes I'm in the mood to work around to a plural, sometimes I'm up for
> >>typing he/she, and sometimes I use "hir" and "sie". None is ideal, and
> >>which I use depends on my mood. Anything but the generic "he" is fine by
> >>me.
> >
> >"they" and "their"?
>
> "They" and "their" are third person plural. We're looking for a singular,
> here.
Sez who? A bunch of prescriptivist eighteenth century grammarians, that's who,
in an ultimately fruitless attempt to try to persuade English to conform to a
classical Latin/Greek grammatical structure (encouraged by remnants of similar
in modern European languages). Singular they/their was perfectly acceptable
200 years ago and is still widely used in informal speech. The fact that it
has been arbitrarily consigned to the vernacular by a long-dead cleric does not
make it any less useful. Cites? An ancient Websters New World dictionary
which I filched from the laundromat at home. Chapter and verse on request.
Tony "snakes shed their[1] skin" Sweeney
[1] third person singular
JoAnne Schmitz
>Note: The Civil War song lyrics web page at
>
> http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/civilwar.html
>
>has a version of "Maryland, My Maryland" with four extra verses,
>which sound like they were added later by Confederates who were
>hoping against hope that Maryland would secede after all ("She
>is not dead, nor deaf, nor dumb;/Huzza! She spurns the Northern
>scum/She breathes! She burns! She'll come! She'll come!/Maryland,
>my Maryland!").
Sounds like they were hoping for something else from Maryland.
JoAnne "so, what's a nice State like you doing in a Union like this?" Schmitz
------------------------------------------------+-----------------------------
"The ear lobes, on the other hand, tell all." | http://www.urbanlegends.com
--Charles Wm. Dimmick, on alt.folklore.urban | http://www.snopes.com
Helge Moulding
> Drivel in one area makes me less inclined to give him the benefit of
> the doubt in another.
This is of course an attitude I've taken myself, although in this
particular case I seem to be in a poor position to distinguish drivel
from controversy or yet innovation.
ObUL: Pinker, in _How the Mind Works_, writes that the Wari, an
Amazon tribe, have a word for food that includes all people that are
not Wari. It sounds suspiciously like the Worffian hypothesis to me,
especially in the context where the claim appears (Pinker argues that
even primitive people are capable of violence). Is there any quick way
to check up on this claim? I found one Peruvian site at
http://www.unitru.edu.pe/arq/schuari.html
which seems to indicate that (assuming these are the same Wari, and that
the AltaVista translation engine didn't totally mess things up) there
should be plenty of material on the Wari, and moreover that the Wari
were at least at one time a fairly advanced group of people. I have a
hard time believing that a culture described as "urban" is going to be
nothing but a bunch of blood drooling cannibals.
--
Helge "A new way of looking at Xena!" Moulding
Paraic O'Donnell
wrote:
>Free morphemes are still morphemes even if they're the only morpheme
>in the word. "Morpheme" doesn't mean "combined with something else".
No, and I was in fact trying to explain the unit *without* giving that
impression, but didn't do an excellent job. Thanks.
>All monomorphemic words belong to the class of morphemes. Some words
>have more than one morpheme in them.
You're absolutely right; that was stupid of me.
This stuff is fresher in Hg's mind than mine, which means that she's
in a better position than mine to express our shared feeling that
Beard's pronouncements on this subject are distinctly dodgy.
Paraic "closed class of '94" O'Donnell
H Gilmer
: This stuff is fresher in Hg's mind than mine, which means that she's
: in a better position than mine to express our shared feeling that
: Beard's pronouncements on this subject are distinctly dodgy.
: Paraic "closed class of '94" O'Donnell
M.A. 1996, but haven't actually taken/taught a class in the stuff since
1994 either.
Hg
H Gilmer
: I'm no linguist (and I gather it shows), but Beard made sense in that
: there is a difference between those parts of language that do the
: grammar bit, and those that do the naming bit. I was familiar with that
: stuff from Pinker's _Language Instinct_, and Beard's terminology seemed
: to fit right in.
: If most linguists give the parts the same names, then maybe Beard is
: onto something. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to give the same
: name to two functionally different things.
It's not like they have nothing in common. Words are divided into
word-bits, minimal units of "meaning", whatever that is, generally
called "morphemes". No one says you can't then go and further
classify morphemes. But you should pick a different term to label
your categories.
: > No, wait, he's just plain wrong. I just read his drivel about sound
: > variation.
: Disagreement in one area invalidates all other areas? I'm not sure
: that's a useful approach to this sort of thing.
Drivel in one area makes me less inclined to give him the benefit of
the doubt in another.
Hg
Rebecca Voris
In article <77jj8o$pku$1...@panix2.panix.com> afa...@panix.com (alice
faber) writes:
In <77j71n$61h$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu> ell...@mars.its.yale.edu (Alex Elliott) writes:
>>In article <77gath$9dj$1...@news.panix.com>, alice faber
>><afa...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>I sometimes have occasion to drive over a much shorter steel-grid bridge
>>>(on Connecticut Rte 15 [aka Wilbur Cross/Merritt Parkway], across the
>>>Housatonic River).
>>>Even under optimal weather
>>>conditions, i.e., no wind or precipitation, the primary sensation involved
>>>in driving across this bridge is imminent loss of control.
>>Almost everyone says, "I *hate* that bridge! I feel like I'm going to
>>go right off into the river!" yet no one can ever cite even a rumor of
>>an accident.
> I have a friend who does a wonderful rant about how when the bridge
> was renovated about 15 years ago, it was replaced with *another* steel
> grid bridge. (I assume this is because such a bridge weighs less than
> a conventional paved bridge would, and the extant pilings wouldn't
> support a conventional bridge.)
My father got a book for Christmas which is a pictoral history of the
Merritt Parkway, including a final chapter on the Wilbur Cross
Parkway. The book mostly talks about the bridges and overpasses of the
Merritt, each one of which is different, and each one of which was
designed to reflect the character of the town it was in. Pity they
were intended to be viewed as one leisurely saunters by at 40 miles an
hour.
The book briefly talkes about _that_ bridge - I hate it too, of
course. It was built during the war, and designed to use minimal
materials. There was a picture of one of the supports. It is a single,
graceful, slender pillar of concrete, which splits in two at the top
like the branches of a tree. It looks far too frail to hold up the
bridge. I have to remember not to dwell on this when I'm going over
it.
Rebecca "the tunnel, on the other hand, is cool" Voris
Alex Elliott
Phil Edwards <amr...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>[1] Not implying Madeleine invented it; however, not having seen it
>anywhere else I'm not able to say "the 'sie' usage popularised by
>leading feminists such as Camille Paglia[2]", or whatever it might be.
ObUL: The pronouns "sie" and "hir" were invented on (or first widely
used in) the newsgroup alt.sex.bondage.
I've heard this factoid vectored a couple of times in various places
throughout Usenet. It is true that if one runs the altavista search
+"gender neutral pronouns" +hir, more than 25% of the links you get
are copies of the alt.sex.bondage FAQ.
Alex "Do you hir what I hir?" Elliott