German naming restrictions---"Adolf" verboten?
Nathan Tenny
Last night, my wife and I were talking about restrictions on first names
in Germany (I can't imagine why). She claimed---and, on reflection,
amended it with "or so I've heard"---that, for obvious reasons, German
law since World War II has forbidden naming a child Adolf.
It's apparently true (as common knowledge would have it) that German law
places some restrictions on what children can be named; from the 20 Dec 96
issue of _Deutschland Nachrichten_ (published by the Germany Information
Center in New York, which is apparently affiliated with the German Embassy):
Nach deutschem Recht muss aus einem Vornamen deutlich
hervorgehen, ob es sich eine weibliche oder eine m\"annliche
Person handelt.
(<http://www.germany-info.org/gnew/archive/dn1220.htm>, last item)
Sorry about the German; they don't appear to post translations of the
"Kultur" section, perhaps under the assumption that those who don't read
German won't care. The gist is that, under German law, given names must
be gender-unambiguous. The surrounding article is a little thick for my
limited German, but seems to say that there's an advisory body (the
Personenberatungs-stelle) to which the courts appeal when there's a
question as to whether a name should be permitted. It's not clear to
me whether the decisions of that body are binding. There are a few
examples of names that didn't make the cut: Prinzess, Chanel, Maik'l,
L\"owenherz. No word, however, on whether Adolf is forbidden. Anyone
want to resolve this?
NT
--
Nathan Tenny | Words I carry in my pocket, where they
Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA | breed like white mice.
<nten...@qualcomm.com> | - Lawrence Durrell
H.W.M.
Nathan Tenny wrote:
> Last night, my wife and I were talking about restrictions on first names
> in Germany (I can't imagine why). She claimed---and, on reflection,
> amended it with "or so I've heard"---that, for obvious reasons, German
> law since World War II has forbidden naming a child Adolf.
Can not say I am an expert on this, but I think the name itself can not be
banned. A Swedish family of anarchists have been fighting over with the state
several years now trying to give their kid something like a set of numbers etc.
but the name laws in most European Union countries are quite similar to the
German one.
Then again I believe that the parentds might have given a polite remark it may
be not so wise to name the kid "Adolf" due to the historical ballast of the
name.
Henry Wilhelm >>> henry.w @ gnwmail.com <<<
*********************************************
* I could be bounded in a nut-shell, *
* and count myself a king of infinite space,*
* were it not that I have bad dreams *
*********************************************
Mathias Koerber
: Nathan Tenny wrote:
:> Last night, my wife and I were talking about restrictions on first names
:> in Germany (I can't imagine why). She claimed---and, on reflection,
:> amended it with "or so I've heard"---that, for obvious reasons, German
:> law since World War II has forbidden naming a child Adolf.
: Can not say I am an expert on this, but I think the name itself can not be
: banned. A Swedish family of anarchists have been fighting over with the state
: several years now trying to give their kid something like a set of numbers etc.
: but the name laws in most European Union countries are quite similar to the
: German one.
: Then again I believe that the parentds might have given a polite remark it may
: be not so wise to name the kid "Adolf" due to the historical ballast of the
: name.
There was an article in the Straits Times (Singapore) a few days ago about someone
named "Adolf Hittler" and the problems he has with his name today. I can't recall
the details, but I guess he was born after WWII...
As articles like these are usually adopted from some wire-service or other paper by
the ST, you might find something in the search engines. I can't find the URL
for the STratistimes at the moment (straitstimes.asiaone.com does not work anymore
for whatever reason...)
: Henry Wilhelm >>> henry.w @ gnwmail.com <<<
: *********************************************
: * I could be bounded in a nut-shell, *
: * and count myself a king of infinite space,*
: * were it not that I have bad dreams *
: *********************************************
--
Mathias Koerber | Tel: +65 / 471 9820 | mat...@staff.singnet.com.sg
SingNet NOC | Fax: +65 / 475 3273 | mat...@koerber.org
Q'town Tel. Exch. | PGP: Keyid: 768/25E082BD finger mat...@singnet.com.sg
2 Stirling Rd | 1A 8B FC D4 93 F1 9A FC BD 98 A3 1A 0E 73 01 65
S'pore 148943 | Disclaimer: I speak only for myself
"Kompostiert ihr eure Lieder selbst oder habt ihr einen Kommunisten?"
- aus der Wochenshow
Henrik Schmidt
>
> Nathan Tenny wrote:
>
> > Last night, my wife and I were talking about restrictions on first names
> > in Germany (I can't imagine why). She claimed---and, on reflection,
> > amended it with "or so I've heard"---that, for obvious reasons, German
> > law since World War II has forbidden naming a child Adolf.
>
> Can not say I am an expert on this, but I think the name itself can not be
> banned.
I suppose it could, but I haven't heard of any cases. In Denmark, noone
would be tempted to call their child Adolf (lunatic fringes aside). If
it's actualy banned I don't know.
>A Swedish family of anarchists have been fighting over with the state
> several years now trying to give their kid something like a set of numbers etc.
> but the name laws in most European Union countries are quite similar to the
> German one.
Ours are, except for the gender-unambiguous part. Several Danish names
can be given to a boy *or* a girl. A famous case was settled recently,
when a mother (in Jutland, of course) was finally allowed to spell her
son's name "Christophpher" (note: 2 ph's). At this time, she had been
paying monthly fines for over ten years, and the boy's official name was
"Firstname Hansen" ("Fornavn Hansen" in Danish).
Seems some people are just completely clue-resistant, even though it
could be shown quite clearly that "ph" always replaces "ff" and never
just "f". The only other accepted spelling is, obviously, "Christoffer".
> Then again I believe that the parentds might have given a polite remark it may
> be not so wise to name the kid "Adolf" due to the historical ballast of the
> name.
See above about clue-resistant people.
Henrik "Clues - Twofifty apiece" Schmidt
--
Remove DAMN.SPAM. from my address to reply
Becca Ward
> There was an article in the Straits Times (Singapore) a few days ago about someone
> named "Adolf Hittler" and the problems he has with his name today. I can't recall
> the details, but I guess he was born after WWII...
Actually, according to the Associated Press (?) article in the
Philadelphia _Inquirer_ earlier this week, the gentleman, a resident of
Austria, was born in the late 30's, before the start of the war. I think
it was 1938. When asked why he never changed his name, he said that to do
so would have been a dishonor to his parents.
The son, on the other hand, decided to use the surname Mrs. Hittler had
before she married Mr. Hittler. Mr. Hittler expressed disappointment, but
also acknowledged that he understood his son's decision.
Becca "then there was that episode of `Hill Street Blues' with the
stand-up comedian name Adolf Hitler" Ward
--
I wish people would quit unmasking my plans for conquering
the world through judicious use of poison.
-- Laura Valentine unfurls her diabolical
scheme to TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
Becca Ward
> Becca Ward <talo...@deathstar.org> wrote:
> >
> >Becca "then there was that episode of `Hill Street Blues' with the
> >stand-up comedian name Adolf Hitler" Ward
>
> That was Vic Hitler, the Narcoleptic Comedian.
>
> Bo "why do I remember that?" Bradham
Mea cupola.
Becca "Vic, Adolf, Adolf, Vic" Ward
Gordon Rennie
>
>
> There was an article in the Straits Times (Singapore) a few days ago about someone
> named "Adolf Hittler" and the problems he has with his name today. I can't recall
> the details, but I guess he was born after WWII...
>
Churchill, grandson of the same. He's quite well known in the UK, but his
name seems to cause him problems abroad. "Yeah, right!" seems to be the
general reaction from hotel receptionists, airline check-in staff and
restaurant maitre d's whenever he has to announce his name.
Evelyn C. Leeper
> Becca Ward <talo...@deathstar.org> wrote:
> >
> >Becca "then there was that episode of `Hill Street Blues' with the
> >stand-up comedian name Adolf Hitler" Ward
>
> That was Vic Hitler, the Narcoleptic Comedian.
There are nine Hitlers listed in switchboard.com.
--
Evelyn C. Leeper | ele...@lucent.com
+1 732 957 2070 | http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4824
"A lot of writers can pull off being subtle, but it takes a genius like Melville
to write a great book that is so utterly lacking in subtlety." --Fiona Webster
Glenn Thompson
Advise him to try a Canadian flag on his luggage or back-pack.
Glenn...if I was your husband, I'd drink it...Thompson
Ton van de Peut
> There are nine Hitlers listed in switchboard.com.
> --
> Evelyn C. Leeper | ele...@lucent.com
Hi Evelyn, you like numbers!
To follow-up on what you found at switchboard, the Austrian
online phonebook lists just one "Hitler", but there are many
with the name "Hittler" (2xt); on top of the list there's even
one with the name "Adolf Hittler". See for yourself at
http://www.etb.at
--
Ton van de Peut
Margaret Kane
> Becca Ward <talo...@deathstar.org> wrote:
> >
> >Becca "then there was that episode of `Hill Street Blues' with the
> >stand-up comedian name Adolf Hitler" Ward
>
> That was Vic Hitler, the Narcoleptic Comedian.
>
> Bo "why do I remember that?" Bradham
> --
There was a Cheers episode where Carla's mother wanted her to follow
family tradition and name her son Benito Mussolini (the tradition was the
father's first name and the mother's maiden name).
Margaret
H.W.M.
Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:
> There are nine Hitlers listed in switchboard.com.
Ready for the x-files. The great conspiracy revealed!
Switchboard.com also revealed the whereabouts of all the presumedly deceased Axis
personas:
Benito Mussolini, Hiroaki Tojo and Erwin Rommel all reside in Washington.
Heinrich Himmler lives in California.
Herman Goering in Utah,
Joseph Mengele in New York
And Adolph Hitler as said, in Louisiana
J. Stalin is awaiting his rehabilitation in Texas while Gregori Rasputin is
scheming in California.
--
H.W.M.
Gordon Rennie wrote:
> There's also a British former Member of Parliament called Winston
> Churchill, grandson of the same. He's quite well known in the UK, but his
> name seems to cause him problems abroad. "Yeah, right!" seems to be the
> general reaction from hotel receptionists, airline check-in staff and
> restaurant maitre d's whenever he has to announce his name.
Oh well, I had my fun searching the switchboard.com database, but James T. Kirk and
James Bond are quite common names, as is John Rambo. I can imagine those guys have
sometimes their bit of a hassle.
- Excuse me, I lost my Bible.
- Ahha, did it have any special markings?
- Yes, it had my name on it.
- Yes?
- King... John...
Sten Thaning
:> Last night, my wife and I were talking about restrictions on first names
:> in Germany (I can't imagine why). She claimed---and, on reflection,
:> amended it with "or so I've heard"---that, for obvious reasons, German
:> law since World War II has forbidden naming a child Adolf.
: Can not say I am an expert on this, but I think the name itself can not be
: banned. A Swedish family of anarchists have been fighting over with the state
: several years now trying to give their kid something like a set of numbers etc.
: but the name laws in most European Union countries are quite similar to the
: German one.
Sweden does have quite strict rules about which first names that are
allowed. You are not allowed to name your child [1] "anything that might
lead to harassment or ridiculing" for example. One of my teachers (in the
university course "Personal Names And Place Names") has worked for the
department in charge. I discussed the subject with her half a year ago,
and according to her "Saddam" would not be allowed in Sweden. "Adolf"
would probably be, but that would depend on who were doing the decision.
During 1994 and 1995 no one in Sweden were named Adolf. I don't know about
the rest of the time since 1945.
- Sten Thaning
[1] Or yourself. We had a case of a person who tried to change his name
to "Kaninen" (The Rabbit) since he had been called that since he was a
kid. The government ruled that he could get into harassment for being
named that. It didn't help that he appealed, saying that he was 24 years
old and were quite capable of deciding whether he could have that name
or not...
Gordon Rennie
>
> Nathan Tenny wrote:
>
> > Last night, my wife and I were talking about restrictions on first names
> > in Germany (I can't imagine why). She claimed---and, on reflection,
> > amended it with "or so I've heard"---that, for obvious reasons, German
> > law since World War II has forbidden naming a child Adolf.
>
> Can not say I am an expert on this, but I think the name itself can not be
> banned. A Swedish family of anarchists have been fighting over with the state
> several years now trying to give their kid something like a set of numbers etc.
> but the name laws in most European Union countries are quite similar to the
> German one.
>
interview with a registrar and the obvious question of what was the
whackiest name he'd ever had to register. Can't remember his answer, but I
do remember his story about how he once spent hours arguing with a couple
before he finally managed to convince them of all the good reasons why they
*shouldn't* name their newborn daughter 'Vulva'.
On a tangent, there's also the UK newstory about the Barclays Bank
customer who changed his name by deed poll to 'Barclays Bank Are Bastards'
after getting into a financial dispute with them. The idea, of course, was
that by remaining a customer of the bank, he would be forcing them to print
that on every one of his cheques/bank statements etc. I think he then
tried suing them after they informed him that they were closing his account
and that his custom was no longer welcome.
Cindy Kandolf
| Can not say I am an expert on this, but I think the name itself can not be
| banned. A Swedish family of anarchists have been fighting over with the state
| several years now trying to give their kid something like a set of numbers etc.
| but the name laws in most European Union countries are quite similar to the
| German one.
I wouldn't call the family "anarchists" - just plain odd might be a
better description. The name is an unpronounceable and quite long
series of apparently random letters and numbers, which the parents
insist is pronounced "Albin". The local authorities are refusing to
register the name, on the grounds that the kid is in for years of
terror in the schoolyard and that if the parents want to call him
"Albin" (a perfectly normal Swedish name i should add), they can darn
well spell it as something resembling "Albin".
Swedish law is similar to Norwegian law in this respect - there is no
official list of banned names, nor a list of permissible names. No
one can have a surname for a given name, and the registrary is
supposed to red flag names that would "tend to cause harm", e.g. set
the kid up for years of terror in the schoolyard. There is an appeal
process. Recently, a new mother and father with roots in Pakistan
chose a name for their baby daughter that was stopped by the
registrary's office in their town as being too weird and likely to
cause trouble. The parents did a little research and found out that
several other girls who had been born in Norway had the same name, and
on the basis of that the original decision was overturned.
Some countries do have official lists of permissible names - France is
one. In some of those countries, it's possible to apply to use a name
that isn't on the list if, for instance, it's been a family name, or
it can be shown to be a common name in the parents' country of origin.
- Cindy Kandolf, certified language mechanic, mamma flodnak
flodmail: ci...@nvg.ntnu.no flodhome: Bærum, Norway
flodweb: http://www.nethelp.no/cindy/
Madeleine Page
: H.W.M. wrote:
: > Nathan Tenny wrote:
: > > Last night, my wife and I were talking about restrictions on first names
: > > in Germany [...]
: > Can not say I am an expert on this, but I think the name itself can not be
: > banned. [...]
: I seem to remember a feature on UK TV about unusual names. It included an
: interview with a registrar and the obvious question of what was the
: whackiest name he'd ever had to register.
[snip funny name story]
Mr Rennie probably had no way of knowing this, but Funny Names threads are
anathema to afuisti. Such threads are of dubious provenance, of even more
questionable funnitude, and fairly often seem to carry a racist subtext.
They also attract herds of folks to afu who make the recent discussants of
the Urban Legend movie look like Nobel Laureates by comparison.
They also last for bloody ever.
Madeleine "anyone ELSE [1] following up to this thread will be repeatedly
shot" Page
[1] Thank you Vicki
H.W.M.
Cindy Kandolf wrote:
> I wouldn't call the family "anarchists" - just plain odd might be a
> better description.
Well, I would not call them the bomb-throwing anarchist kind, but rather this
flower-power generation next type anti-government-big-brother-institutions -kind of
anarchists. Saying people are " odd" sounds they are plain crazy, but naming them
anarchists has this romantic air in it.
I think the parents are trying to make a point. Though I wonder what 'Albin' thinks of
it all after he grows up.
H.W.M.
Sten Thaning wrote:
>You are not allowed to name your child [1] "anything that might lead to harassment
or ridiculing" for example.
The Finnish law is similar.
" An infant child must be given a first name, no more than three. Let not be given a
boy's name to a girl or vice versa. The first name may not be a patronyme, only as a
second or a third name. Also the first name may not be shared with siblings.
The name must not conflict with the grammatical standards of the Finnish language nor
the Finnish tradition. the name is also seen illegal if it is unseeming and the child
may be expected to suffer from it during some part of his life. A name that does not
adhere to these standards can be accepted only if the child has such family, or other
ties to a foreign nation, and the first name is according to the standards of that
nation, or due to religious reasons.
rmonroe1
are many)--but I believe Adolf's father Aloise(sp?) had restyled the name
Heidler (sp?) into Hitler for whatever reason. That would seem to be the
original name. There is some controversy over who Aloise's(sp?) father was.
Aloise's mother (Adolf's grandmother) was unmarried at the time of birth and
her name at the time was Schklgruber (sp?) or something like that at the
time of birth.
Isn't there an action movie actor (sorry not a big fan) named Dolf Lundgren
or something? Sounds like a nickname to me.
Ron Monroe...er Reginald Munro
Tony Sweeney
> [funny name story deleted]
>
> On a tangent, there's also the UK newstory about the Barclays Bank
> customer who changed his name by deed poll to 'Barclays Bank Are Bastards'
> after getting into a financial dispute with them. The idea, of course, was
> that by remaining a customer of the bank, he would be forcing them to print
> that on every one of his cheques/bank statements etc. I think he then
> tried suing them after they informed him that they were closing his account
> and that his custom was no longer welcome.
I'll risk Madeleine's wrath and say that this story has a smidgeon of ULitude about
it, in that it has mutated in the telling. The version I first heard, which for all
I know is true, has the bank as Yorkshire Bank PLC. This is a classic case of UL
detaching from its original host and latching on to a more famous on, the better to
vector it further.
Tony "could someone tell the 'Dear Rich Bastard' one again?" Sweeney
Bob Cradock
wrote:
The only law involving a funny name that I'm inclined to cite here
is that of Godwin.
Gordon Rennie
been Yorkshire. The story was also featured on 'Have I Got News For You'
where, for legal reasons, you would assume that the BBC would check its
veracity before they potentially libelled Barclays/Yorkshire Bank. I'm
therefore pretty sure that the story is true, and not a UL.
Madeleine Page
: Note: This address does not accept email
It's OK, dear. No one wants to write you.
: Britain's Babies - you Name it, They've Got it
: 07-07-94
: LONDON (Reuter) - If your family name is Beer, what do you
: call your son? One British couple called Beer opted for the
[snip twenty one more lines of unfair use, all pertaining to Funny Names]
We don't care for Funny Names threads on this newsgroup. Please do not
post them.
Madeleine "rec.org.mensa, however, *loves* them" Page
Phil Edwards
>Gordon Rennie wrote:
>
>> On a tangent, there's also the UK newstory about the Barclays Bank
>> customer who changed his name by deed poll to 'Barclays Bank Are Bastards'
>> after getting into a financial dispute with them.
>
>I'll risk Madeleine's wrath and say that this story has a smidgeon of ULitude about
>it, in that it has mutated in the telling. The version I first heard, which for all
>I know is true, has the bank as Yorkshire Bank PLC.
The new name was "Yorkshire Bank plc Are Fascist Bastards". The old
name was Michael Howard. It's a True News Story if I'm not mistaken.
(I don't know if the bank actually printed his full name as required -
I'd imagine he'd have to settle for Y. B. P. A. F. B. Bastards Esq.)
>This is a classic case of UL
>detaching from its original host and latching on to a more famous on, the better to
>vector it further.
What he said.
Phil "how are the little Bastards?" Edwards
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth
"Even not knowing what you are talking about,
I can't figure out what you are talking about." - Bob Hiebert
Rich Wales
The Finnish law is similar. . . . The first name may
not be a patronyme, only as a second or a third name.
I think something may have been lost in translation here. Do you mean
a Finnish child's first name must not appear to be a last (family) name?
Or do you mean a Finnish child cannot be given the same first name as
his father (or her mother)?
Rich Wales ri...@webcom.com http://www.webcom.com/richw/
H.W.M.
Rich Wales wrote:
> Henry Wilhelm wrote:
>
> The Finnish law is similar. . . . The first name may
> not be a patronyme, only as a second or a third name.
>
> I think something may have been lost in translation here. Do you mean
> a Finnish child's first name must not appear to be a last (family) name?
> Or do you mean a Finnish child cannot be given the same first name as
> his father (or her mother)?
Actually a "yes" to both your questions. The name may not be a family name
at all, though the law defines the "patronyme" more like "Son of Matthew",
so you can not name your kid "Matinpoika", as his *first name* whereas you
could in principle have Matti Matinpoika Mattila who is the son of Matti
Mattila. However naming the kid the same as the father is just not "done"
due to the fact the names would get mixed up, and there is also some magic
behind it. You are not supposed to share the same first name with a living
member of the family. Some families have a tradition where the second and
third names ar sort of "inherited" within a family, such as all my sisters,
my mother and her mother have "Anneli" as their second name. Then my
sister's girls have "Aino" , which is our mother's first name as their
second given name.
I had a good chance to follow the debate over names when it came to
cristening my sister-in-law's boy. The names were looked up from the names
in the family; and then a good combination was figured out and the spelling
was fought over as well...
This "patronyme" used to be the only surname a person had. These days it is
only used as kind of an 'ethnic' coloring. In daily speech it is seldom
used, though my father uses a patronym of me sometimes, but it is more of an
endearing term.
It is not used in everyday speech as in Russia, where you use the patronym
as the polite form of address. It is not used as an official name, as in
Iceland where they stick to the ancient tradition which I find quite
sensible. So if you are Leif Björnsson, I know your father's name was Björn,
and if you just had a kid named Erik, I know his name is Erik Leifsson.
This also applies to women, as in Vigdis Finnbogadottir, so this means that
all the members in the family have their own surname, which makes finding
people in the phonebook quite a feat!
--
Rich Wales
However naming the kid the same as the father is just
not "done" [in Finland] due to the fact the names would
get mixed up, and there is also some magic behind it.
You are not supposed to share the same first name with
a living member of the family.
Interesting. In most English-speaking countries, there really isn't any
such tradition, and it's considered quite acceptable to give a son the
same name -- first name plus middle name(s) -- as his father. When this
happens, the word "Junior" (abbreviated "Jr.") is added to the son's
name to distinguish him from his father -- and, conversely, the father
may be called "Senior" (or "Sr.") to distinguish him from his son.
alice faber
>Henry Wilhelm wrote:
Well, yes and no. Perhaps in Anglo-Saxon tradition names get recycled
before they're, but in Jewish tradition (Ashkenazic, i.e., stemming
from Central and Eastern Europe), one would never name a child after a
living relative. I vaguely recall folkloric accounts that doing so
might confuse the Angel of Death, so that the child would die before
the older relative after whom he or she was named. A corrollary to
this is that a child born soon after someone dies should be named
after the recently deceased. I specified Ashkenazic above, because
this view isn't universal in Jewish communities; traditions vary, and
what is the practice among Jews of German or Hungarian descent often
is not among Jews of Iraqi descent (and vice versa).
Alice "balice bo balice" Faber
Nick Spalding
> Interesting. In most English-speaking countries, there really isn't any
> such tradition, and it's considered quite acceptable to give a son the
> same name -- first name plus middle name(s) -- as his father. When this
> happens, the word "Junior" (abbreviated "Jr.") is added to the son's
> name to distinguish him from his father -- and, conversely, the father
> may be called "Senior" (or "Sr.") to distinguish him from his son.
Much less common in England than in the USA. What used to be very
common was for names to alternate in generations, particularly in the
male line, with a boy being named for his grandfather.
H.W.M.
Rich Wales wrote:
> Henry Wilhelm wrote:
>
> However naming the kid the same as the father is just
> not "done" [in Finland] due to the fact the names would
> get mixed up, and there is also some magic behind it.
> You are not supposed to share the same first name with
> a living member of the family.
>
> Interesting. In most English-speaking countries, there really isn't any
> such tradition, and it's considered quite acceptable to give a son the
> same name -- first name plus middle name(s) -- as his father. When this
> happens, the word "Junior" (abbreviated "Jr.") is added to the son's
> name to distinguish him from his father -- and, conversely, the father
> may be called "Senior" (or "Sr.") to distinguish him from his son.
TWIABP, what can we add to that. I also have witnessed this habit more
prominent in the US, where you have whole dynasties of "John Doe"and where
the Sr and Jr are not enough, I have a friend who is "John Doe III". Hmmm...
some might call that lack of imagination, but then again if the option is to
name the child "Vulva" or " Alice XIV" ...
The yurpeens however think this a decadent habit reserved to the royalty and
popes only..
Richard Brandt
>
> Note: This address does not accept email
>
> Madeleine "argumentum ad hominem" Page wrote:
>
> MP> Shakib Otaqui (ne...@alquds.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> MP>
> MP> : Note: This address does not accept email
> MP>
> MP> It's OK, dear. No one wants to write you.
>
> Those I care to hear from know how to reach me.
No one here, then, obviously.
Richard "Next!" Brandt
--
== Richard Brandt is at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8720/ ==
"No wonder Java is such a threat: when you have already cornered
the market on slower, incompatible software, you sure don't want
anyone else getting into the act." -- Stan Gibson, PC Week
Lon Stowell
>
>Much less common in England than in the USA. What used to be very
>common was for names to alternate in generations, particularly in the
>male line, with a boy being named for his grandfather.
Sometimes with the first and middle names swapped. In some cultures
it is also common to give the male child the first name of the
grandfather [or less frequently the father] but for their middle
name to use the first name of whatever male relative the
new parents wish to kiss up to.
I do believe in Norway that it is illegal to name one's offspring
'lutefisk' tho.
Phil Edwards
>Interesting. In most English-speaking countries, there really isn't any
>such tradition, and it's considered quite acceptable to give a son the
>same name -- first name plus middle name(s) -- as his father. When this
>happens, the word "Junior" (abbreviated "Jr.") is added to the son's
>name to distinguish him from his father -- and, conversely, the father
>may be called "Senior" (or "Sr.") to distinguish him from his son.
And this is the case in most English-speaking countries? Interesting.
Phil "only ever lived in one, myself" Edwards
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth
"Individual cows will almost always claim to be 'Daisy'
under interrogation." - Don Whittington
Phil Edwards
>Note: This address does not accept email
>
>On 3 Oct, in article <6v5nq1$5...@panix2.panix.com>
> Madeleine "argumentum ad hominem" Page wrote:
>
>MP> It's OK, dear. No one wants to write you.
>
> Those I care to hear from know how to reach me.
>
>You can't be truly rude until you understand good manners.
Those etiquette lessons have clearly paid off.
Phil "A big Hi to all you people reading this! I'm glad to have given
you the opportunity to read my posts to this group. Please don't
commit the impertinence of trying to engage me in personal
correspondence, because frankly I'm not interested. Happy reading,
everyone, and I love you all - or rather I don't, particularly."
Cindy Kandolf
| Henry Wilhelm wrote:
| However naming the kid the same as the father is just
| not "done" [in Finland] due to the fact the names would
| get mixed up, and there is also some magic behind it.
| You are not supposed to share the same first name with
| a living member of the family.
|
| such tradition, and it's considered quite acceptable to give a son the
| same name -- first name plus middle name(s) -- as his father. When this
| happens, the word "Junior" (abbreviated "Jr.") is added to the son's
| name to distinguish him from his father -- and, conversely, the father
| may be called "Senior" (or "Sr.") to distinguish him from his son.
It used to be the case in Norway that it was considered bad luck to
name the child after a living ancestor. There was in many places a
strict tradition about who each child should be named after (first son
after paternal grandfather, for instance), but if the ancestor in
question was still alive that name would be skipped and perhaps used
for a later child. It happened that cousins, for instance, shared the
same name, but not two living members of the family in a direct
ascending/descending line. The only case in which a son would be
named after the father was if the father died before the birth of the
child; a girl would only get her mother's name if the mother died in
childbirth.
These days no one seems to be superstitious about it, but there is
simply no tradition of naming a boy after his father, or a girl after
her mother. I can think of some parent/child pairs i know in which
the child's name was probably chosen because it was similar to a
parent's name: Lene/Linnea, Nikolai/Jan Nikolai, Tom/Tomas, for
instance. But no direct "Tom Jr." type names.
Timothy A. McDaniel
| conversely, the father
| may be called "Senior" (or "Sr.") to distinguish him from his son.
Depends on the meaning of "may". For example, you may speed (in the
sense that it might happen) but you may not speed (in the sense that
it is not permitted).
The Gospel According to Miss Manners: A man is never titled "Senior".
Period. If he's the eldest living man of that name in the family, he
has the privilege of bearing the name without suffix. Suffixes are
added to other living men of his family to distinguish them from him
(and from each other). The next eldest living of the name is
"Junior", the next living is "III", et cetera.
Yes, "living". If someone of the name dies, everyone with a higher
number renumbers. (And they pass down their writing paper to the new
bearer of their number, one hopes, and the engraver's plate. The
original holder has no more legitimate use for them and the new one
does, after all.) Keeping the number is reserved for royalty.
So nobody can use "Senior"? Actually, someone can -- the widow of the
previous eldest is "Mrs. Joseph Blow Senior", to distinguish her from
"Mrs. Joseph Blow", the wife of the current eldest. I don't know what
happens if there are two widows. Perhaps one of them is obligated to
commit suttee just to clear the decks.
Tim "So there" McDaniel
--
Tim McDaniel. Reply to tm...@crl.com;
if that fail, tm...@austin.ibm.com is my work account.
Heathcliff
>
> ri...@webcom.com (Rich Wales) wrote:
>
> >Interesting. In most English-speaking countries, there really isn't any
> >such tradition, and it's considered quite acceptable to give a son the
> >same name -- first name plus middle name(s) -- as his father. When this
> >happens, the word "Junior" (abbreviated "Jr.") is added to the son's
> >may be called "Senior" (or "Sr.") to distinguish him from his son.
>
>
While there is no legal prohibition to doing this in Canada, it would be
an aberation rather than a norm. The practice seems to be one of those
peculiarily American things, its purpose to give the impression of
dynastic continuity.
mitcho
>
> While there is no legal prohibition to doing this in Canada, it would be
> an aberation rather than a norm. The practice seems to be one of those
> peculiarily American things, its purpose to give the impression of
> dynastic continuity.
Er, I would suggest a more prosaic purpose of helping to distinguish
father from son who share the same name.
Mitcho
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mit...@netcom.com Urban Redneck of Goat Hill, California TR15 2BU
http://www.employees.org/~ozyman o http://www.urbanlegends.com
Viv
Cindy Kandolf wrote in message <6va69k...@verdi.nethelp.no>...
>It used to be the case in Norway that it was considered bad luck to
>name the child after a living ancestor. There was in many places a
>strict tradition about who each child should be named after (first son
>after paternal grandfather, for instance), but if the ancestor in
>question was still alive that name would be skipped and perhaps used
>for a later child. [snip]
>- Cindy Kandolf, certified language mechanic, mamma flodnak
Greeks (at least from some Aegean Islands) have a naming tradition for girls
which I encountered at school in Newcastle, NSW, Australia, where there is a
large Graeco-Strine community, most of whose families emigrated from outside
the Greek mainland. The first daughter in each family was named after the
paternal grandmother, and as it seemed that entire bevies (cohorts?) of
brothers had come together to Oz, this meant that there were an awful lot of
girls running around with the same name. At my high school we had five
examples of Alexandra Douglas [1], four of Dimiti Raftos (two of whom were
in the same year and were thus distinguished by their middle names as Dimiti
Jane and Dimiti Nicolette) and several other doubles whose names I cannot
recall. The families tended to have huge celebrations for the girls'
namedays [2] which doubled as the annual extended family get-together.
Vivienne "Vivana to my friends' parents" Smythe
[1] This was not an anglicisation of a Greek surname, this was a proud
inheritance from a Scottish adventurer, allegedly a mercenary soldier during
the Ottoman wars, who decided not to return to mists and heather.
Occasionally in the family some recessive inheritance would pop up and
result in fair skin and bright blue eyes.
[2] A tradition of followers of the Greek Orthodox Church - most children
bear the name of saints and the eponymous saint's festival day is then the
child's *nameday*, which is celebrated with gifts and parties much more
widely than actual birthdays.
Eric Hocking
> When this
> happens, the word "Junior" (abbreviated "Jr.") is added to the son's
> name to distinguish him from his father -- and, conversely, the father
> may be called "Senior" (or "Sr.") to distinguish him from his son.
TWIAVBP obviously. Certainly with regard to the Sr/Jr tag. *Very* uncommon
to hear it used in OZ. I happend to know a John, who is a fifth generation
John. That is, father, grandfather, great-grandfather and
great-great-grandfather were all named John. Not a Jr/Sr in sight.
Oddly, and I repeated this just the other day, I believed that there was a
law in England/Australia that prevented using the same Christian for more
thatn three generations in succession. Commonly held and heard belief but
apparently quite wrong.
Is there anyone who knows where *that* factlet may have come from?
--
Eric "S." Hocking
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
== Melbourne, Australia ==
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ehocking
Bob Cradock
> In <1998100415113...@webcom.com> ri...@webcom.com (Rich Wales)
writes:
> >Henry Wilhelm wrote:
> > However naming the kid the same as the father is just
> > not "done" [in Finland]
>
> >Interesting. In most English-speaking countries, there really isn't any
> >such tradition, and it's considered quite acceptable to give a son the
> >same name -- first name plus middle name(s) -- as his father.
> [snip Sr/Jr/3d details]
> Well, yes and no. Perhaps in Anglo-Saxon tradition names get recycled
> before they're [dead?], but in Jewish tradition (Ashkenazic, ... stemming
> from Central and Eastern Europe), one would never name a child after a
> living relative. I vaguely recall folkloric accounts that doing so
> might confuse the Angel of Death, so that the child would die before
> the older relative after whom he or she was named. A corrollary to
> this is that a child born soon after someone dies should be named
> after the recently deceased.
Thank you, Alice. I had just about decided that since no one Jewish
had raised that point I'd have to do it myself peripherally, as
an ex-SO of a gentile raised by nonobservant Jews. Glad you
could speak with more authority. (That Angel of Death bit is
cool!)
I recall discussing with my GF her dilemma of wanting to
use her grandmother's lovely name for a future daughter, but not
wanting it enough to wish the old lady dead first. Conversely,
she worried that some unappealing relative would croak just
before a child's birth, putting familial pressure on her to
follow tradition and name after that dud.
As for me, being a Robert M. Cradock the Third makes me vow not
to inflict that on any son of mine. The first thousand times
you and your dad get each other's calls or mail it's funny.
After that it's a royal pain, culminating in credit history hell.
Maybe it's different if you're famous, but I wouldn't know. Maybe
I've still got time to marry nobility and try out the dynasty thing.
Robert "the Nth I am" Cradock
Philip Lees
>Greeks (at least from some Aegean Islands) have a naming tradition for girls
This is normal procedure in Greece for both boys and girls. The first
male child is named after the paternal grandfather; the second for the
maternal grandfather. The same applies for girls, mutatis mutandis.
So, only after the fourth child do the parents start to have any
choice in the matter. Since first cousins often have the same name,
the patronymic, i.e. the father's first name, is included on all
official documents in an attempt to reduce confusion[1]. Previously,
when a woman married she would take her husband's first name in place
of the patronymic, as well as adopting his family name. However, for
<mumble> years now that has not been the case - now she keeps her
original family name, too.
Phil "call me Bruce to keep things simple" Lees
[1] Not always successful.
--
Perform dentistry on my e-mail address to reply.
Kevin Whitefoot
> Rich Wales (ri...@webcom.com) writes:
> | conversely, the father
> | may be called "Senior" (or "Sr.") to distinguish him from his son.
>
> Depends on the meaning of "may". For example, you may speed (in the
> sense that it might happen) but you may not speed (in the sense that
> it is not permitted).
[...]
'you may speed' means that you have permission. 'you might speed'
means that it might happen.
--
Kevin Whitefoot, kevin.w...@nopow.abb.no
"Now we've got a truth to die for!"
"No. Men should die for lies. But the truth is too precious to die for."
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
H Gilmer
: 'you may speed' means that you have permission. 'you might speed'
: means that it might happen.
Posts dedicated entirely to pointing out someone else's grammatical
errors are even worse when people make these pronouncements and
they're just plain wrong, or at least not as completely right as they
think they are.
Look up the concepts of epistemic and deontic modals. Then look up
the extensive discussion of this on alt.usage.english within the last
half year or so. Then wonder about what else your English teacher
told you was absolute gospel.
Hg
Philip Lees
>choice in the matter.
Provided, of course, that the parents tidily arrange to have two of
each sex before proceeding further.
Phil "sorry about that" Lees
Phil Edwards
>Rich Wales wrote:
>> When this
>> happens, the word "Junior" (abbreviated "Jr.") is added to the son's
>> name to distinguish him from his father -- and, conversely, the father
>> may be called "Senior" (or "Sr.") to distinguish him from his son.
>
>TWIAVBP obviously. Certainly with regard to the Sr/Jr tag.
Check. Non-sightings in the UK, Canada and Austria.
>Oddly, and I repeated this just the other day, I believed that there was a
>law in England/Australia that prevented using the same Christian for more
>thatn three generations in succession. Commonly held and heard belief but
>apparently quite wrong.
Then again, I've never heard this one either.
Phil "although they would get rather tatty after the first couple"
Lee Rudolph
>Oddly, and I repeated this just the other day, I believed that there was a
>law in England/Australia that prevented using the same Christian for more
>thatn three generations in succession.
If lions are anything like housecats, I doubt it would last even one.
Lee "suffering succotash!" Rudolph
Timothy A. McDaniel
Kevin Whitefoot <kevin.w...@nopow.abb.no> wrote:
> [snip stuff on "may" versus "might"]
My dic differs from yours, it appears. Then again, it
may^H^H^Hmight^H^H^H^H^H could possibly come down to "prescriptionist"
versus "descriptionist", which is a whole nuther kettle of fish, to
use another deprecated usage.
In any event, a more correct location is alt.usage.english, down the
hall, third door on the left, tell 'em AFU sent you.
Tim "Buh bye!" McDaniel
H.W.M.
Viv wrote:
> Cindy Kandolf wrote in message <6va69k...@verdi.nethelp.no>...
>
> >It used to be the case in Norway
>
> Greeks
OK, now I have had this little question in the back of my head since I came back
from the Caribbean.
How do the names go in Puerto Rico? I remember hearing the explanation a dozen
times but still I get confused.
The surnames here, not first names. Puerto Ricans have two surnames, one from
the father's side and one from the mothers, but after that how they went in the
family I got lost. Anyone have an insight?
Thomas Prufer
(Nathan Tenny) wrote:
>
>Last night, my wife and I were talking about restrictions on first names
>in Germany (I can't imagine why). She claimed---and, on reflection,
>amended it with "or so I've heard"---that, for obvious reasons, German
>law since World War II has forbidden naming a child Adolf.
>
>It's apparently true (as common knowledge would have it) that German law
>places some restrictions on what children can be named; from the 20 Dec 96
>issue of _Deutschland Nachrichten_ (published by the Germany Information
>Center in New York, which is apparently affiliated with the German Embassy):
>
> Nach deutschem Recht muss aus einem Vornamen deutlich
> hervorgehen, ob es sich eine weibliche oder eine m\"annliche
> Person handelt.
(...)
However, there are a few names acceptable for both females and males:
"Maria" is one (not unusual in Bavaria), which is allowed as a second
name for men, where the first is used to determine gender. An example
would be Rainer Maria Rilke[1].
Names must also be shown to have been used as such, or stemming from
such: Scheißerle ("Little Shit") was found to be unacceptable, whereas
"Pumuckl", the name of a fictional character in a children's book, was
found to be acceptable.
This means that "Adolf" would be legally acceptable.
However, this is attributed to Karl Valentin, a comedian, shortly
after the war: "And 'Adolf' was such a nice name..."
Tom "going through the name thing right now" Prufer
[1] Though he would predate current law. "Maria" is still used that
way, though.
Eric Hocking
> Eric Hocking <ehoc...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> >law in England/Australia that prevented using the same Christian for more
> >thatn three generations in succession.
>
> If lions are anything like housecats, I doubt it would last even one.
Perhaps they are. I've only ever met one person called Christian.
--
Eric "if I were a Buddhist, what would my Christian name be?" Hocking
H.W.M.
Thomas Prufer wrote:
> However, there are a few names acceptable for both females and males:
> "Maria" is one (not unusual in Bavaria), which is allowed as a second
> name for men, where the first is used to determine gender. An example
> would be Rainer Maria Rilke[1].
I remember this being due to the fact that "Mary" is a saint's name and thus as a
saint ia an asexual being the name is ambidextrous. ( Regardless of the sex of
the saint before beatification.) In latin countries I believe this practice is
also quite common, though I have noticed that women are not named Maria Jose as
often as men are named Jose Maria.
alice faber
>Lee Rudolph wrote:
>> Eric Hocking <ehoc...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>> >law in England/Australia that prevented using the same Christian for more
>> >thatn three generations in succession.
>>
>> If lions are anything like housecats, I doubt it would last even one.
>Perhaps they are. I've only ever met one person called Christian.
Ah, you've met my brother-in-law. He's from Argentina.
Alice
Bill Bedford
>
> Swedish law is similar to Norwegian law in this respect - there is no
> official list of banned names, nor a list of permissible names. No
> one can have a surname for a given name,
Is there a reason for this?
There is a group of English forenames that are derived from surnames.
Stanley, Percy, Neville and Russell are ones that come to mind. Would
any of these fall foul of the Scandinavian authorities?
--
Chaos is found wherever order is being sought.
It always defeats order, because it is better organized
Richard Brandt
>
> Lee Rudolph wrote:
> > Eric Hocking <ehoc...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > >law in England/Australia that prevented using the same Christian for more
> > >thatn three generations in succession.
> >
> > If lions are anything like housecats, I doubt it would last even one.
>
> Perhaps they are. I've only ever met one person called Christian.
But I know someone named Lyons.
Richard "had a point in there somewhere" Brandt
Cindy Kandolf
| > Swedish law is similar to Norwegian law in this respect - there is no
| > official list of banned names, nor a list of permissible names. No
| > one can have a surname for a given name,
|
| Is there a reason for this?
|
| There is a group of English forenames that are derived from surnames.
| Stanley, Percy, Neville and Russell are ones that come to mind. Would
| any of these fall foul of the Scandinavian authorities?
Foreign given names that derive from surnames would likely be
accepted. The reason for not accepting the mixing of given names and
surnames in Scandinavia is that many Scandinavian surnames derive from
farm names. The law is an attempt to make sure that the people who
bear any particular surname have some legitimate (though often
distant) connection to the farm, to avoid disputes with false heirs if
there is a question about who is to inherit the farm. That kind of
confusion wouldn't be an issue with a Percy or a Russell.
- Cindy Kandolf, certified language mechanic, mamma flodnak
H.W.M.
Bill Bedford wrote:
> Cindy Kandolf <ci...@nvg.unit.no> wrote:
> > No one can have a surname for a given name,[]
> Is there a reason for this? There is a group of English forenames that
> are derived from surnames.[]
Well, I think the statement needs rephrasing. There are such surnames in
the Nordic countries as well. One would be
"Lauri". And you would not be allowed to name your kid "Lauri Lauri". Then
there are "surname" surnames as " von Ungern-Sternberg" which name you
could not name your kid after either even if you had a fling for the white
general.
That is what the sentence means. Some names can be both, but you can
discern a "surname" quickly. If you were living here and naming your kid,
you'd fall under the "family ties in a country with a different name
culture" but I doubt if they'd let you name the kid "Pencil" even then.
Stanley might do. "Stanley Stanley" then again would be impossible.
There is also a thing called a "protected" surname you can not use, or
take, if you do not belong to the family or then you need to get a
permission of all the members of the family having that surname. That is in
case you want to change your surname for some reason.
Anno Siegel
[...]
>you'd fall under the "family ties in a country with a different name
>culture" but I doubt if they'd let you name the kid "Pencil" even then.
German naming rules (I'm not sure if there's a law, but at least there's
an administrative regulation) don't seem to provide for different naming
cultures. There was a case in point that had some publicity in the
press a few years back.
Apparently in (parts of) Turkey it is customary to name a daughter for
the river she was born close to, so this Turkish couple wanted to
call their daughter "Elbe". They couldn't.
Oh, and "Adolf" isn't forbidden in Germany.
Anno
H.W.M.
Anno Siegel wrote:
> Oh, and "Adolf" isn't forbidden in Germany.
hmmm... this post at the start of the discussion would have saved us from a
long thread, but then again I found it quite interesting to go through the
different legislations. I mean the different European cultures seem close,
but when you dig in a bit you find a totally different set of cultural
rules. I found it very interesting the Jewish and Nordic traditions almost
'forbid' naming children with the same name as a living relative, whilst the
Anglo-American tradition allows, or in American cases almost promotes it.
Roger
On 01.10.98 Henrik Schmidt (36137885...@DAMN.SPAM.hh.hosp.dk) wrote:
HS> I suppose it could, but I haven't heard of any cases. In Denmark,
HS> noone would be tempted to call their child Adolf
Neither would anyone here in Germany, more by general consent than by law.
You may not name your child to what might it cause difficulties later on.
Uusually this is more a problem with parents who want to name their child
after movie stars like "Flipper" or "J.R.".
It is verboten though to show signs and symbols refering to the Third Reich
- so swastikas and the like are not allowed.
Gruss
Roger
--
*** If I knew how to break down the door
I wouldn't have to knock (Lydia Lunch) ***
Thomas Prufer
Siegel) wrote:
>
>German naming rules (I'm not sure if there's a law, but at least there's
>an administrative regulation) don't seem to provide for different naming
>cultures. There was a case in point that had some publicity in the
>press a few years back.
>
>Apparently in (parts of) Turkey it is customary to name a daughter for
>the river she was born close to, so this Turkish couple wanted to
>call their daughter "Elbe". They couldn't.
>
>
I asked a registrar about "Adolf" today - the answer was, "Yes, you
may name a child Adolf, you may even choose between Adolf with an 'f'
and Adolph with a 'ph'. Personally, I wouldn't put my kid through it."
There are provisions that provide -to some extent at least- for
different naming cultures, provided some tie to such a culture can be
shown: My wedding certificate has the amendment that our name
("Namensführung") is according to German law. There was also something
about that in the registrar's forms that I (unfortunately) didn't
bother to remember.
I find some indication in the commentary that comes with the wedding
certificate that the names possible under German law are dependent on
when and where two people of varying nationalities marry, have
children etc. etc. Had I thought of it, I would have asked the
registrar about that, too...
The commentary also kindly provides a list of names, annotated with
those that are not deemed to determine sex adequately alone: Chris,
Eike, Gerrit, Helge, Kai, Kevin, Kim, Micha, Toni, Heike.
The Germans considerately, and perhaps typically, provide you with the
following handy little additions to your wedding certificate:
"Recht und Gesetz im Leben der Familie" - Law and, er, law in family
life, by Universitätsprofessor Dr. Dr. Dres. h. c. Wolfram
Müller-Freienfels,
"Vornamen und ihre Bedeutung" - First names and their meaning, by Dr.
Wilfried Seibicke,
and a list of anniversaries - gold, diamond, that sort of thing.
Now, if someone could please explain to me the meaning of
anniversaries of 6.5, 12.5, 37.5, and 67.5 years [2]...
Tom "leave it to the Germans" Prufer
[2] tin, nickel, aluminum, and stone, respectively.
Eric Hocking
> Ah, you've met my brother-in-law. He's from Argentina.
Yes but he changed his name after he arrived there post dubbleya dubbleya
too, didn't he. Hmmm? Hmmm?
--
Eric "met a Boy from Brasil" Hocking
Philip Lees
Prufer) wrote:
<interesting and relevant stuff snipped>
>The commentary also kindly provides a list of names, annotated with
>those that are not deemed to determine sex adequately alone: Chris,
>Eike, Gerrit, Helge, Kai, Kevin, Kim, Micha, Toni, Heike.
^^^^^
Kevin?
Phil "not to mention" Lees
the_do...@my-dejanews.com
> | There is a group of English forenames that are derived from surnames.
> | Stanley, Percy, Neville and Russell are ones that come to mind. Would
> | any of these fall foul of the Scandinavian authorities?
>
The father of Manchester United and England fooballers Gary and Phil Neville
is named Neville Neville. Really!
All together now: 'Neville Neville, your face is a mess'.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Anno Siegel
>The father of Manchester United and England fooballers Gary and Phil Neville
>is named Neville Neville. Really!
You're walking on thin ice here. Very thin.
Anno "crunch, splash" Siegel
Cindy Kandolf
| All together now: 'Neville Neville, your face is a mess'.
I was told we wouldn't be forced to recall Bay City Rollers lyrics on
this newsgroup. Dammit.
(Sister of former BCR fan, in recovery.)
Bob Church
ci...@nvg.unit.no (Cindy Kandolf) wrote:
>the_do...@my-dejanews.com writes:
>| All together now: 'Neville Neville, your face is a mess'.
>
>I was told we wouldn't be forced to recall Bay City Rollers lyrics on
>this newsgroup. Dammit.
>
>(Sister of former BCR fan, in recovery.)
>
>- Cindy Kandolf, certified language mechanic, mamma flodnak
But you weren't much of a David Bowie fan, were you? Not that there's
anything wrong with that.
Bob Church
Lon Stowell
>
>The father of Manchester United and England fooballers Gary and Phil Neville
>
Oh come on now, who would name their father Neville Neville Really?
Thomas Prufer
(Philip Lees) wrote:
>
>Kevin?
>
>Phil "not to mention" Lees
It sez: "Kevin - engl. first name of Irish origin, pretty, graceful;
used as a woman's first name in Anglo-American".[1]
Tom "who are we to question Akademischer Oberrat Dr. Wilfried Seibicke
of the University of Heidelberg" Prufer
[1] Kevin engl. Vorname irischen Ursprungs, hübsch, anmutig; im
Angloamerikanischen auch als weibl. Vorname gebräuchlich.
Phil Edwards
>On Fri, 09 Oct 1998 13:05:44 GMT, pjl...@tooth.danae.med.uch.gr
>(Philip Lees) wrote:
>
>>Kevin?
>>
>>Phil "not to mention" Lees
>
>It sez: "Kevin - engl. first name of Irish origin, pretty, graceful;
>used as a woman's first name in Anglo-American".[1]
Bizarre. In British use Kevin is very definitely male, & pretty
strongly associated with the strong and stupid type at that. (Prolly
anti-Irish racism in there somewhere).
Phil "oh, er, hi Kevin" Edwards
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth
"I think we're all out of singing movie cowboys." - Phil Gustafson
Thomas Prufer
Edwards) wrote:
>>pru...@compuserve.com (Thomas Prufer) wrote:
>>It sez: "Kevin - engl. first name of Irish origin, pretty, graceful;
>>used as a woman's first name in Anglo-American".[1]
>
>Bizarre. In British use Kevin is very definitely male, & pretty
>strongly associated with the strong and stupid type at that. (Prolly
>anti-Irish racism in there somewhere).
>
>Phil "oh, er, hi Kevin" Edwards
Not as bizarre as I led you to think, as I should have written:
"_also_ used as a woman's first name". (Now we've both got Kevin after
us).
I checked Chambers, which says: "Kevin m. (Ir.) comely birth". That
leaves American - and I've never heard Kevin used as a woman's name.
Kaspar and Kilian are the (male) names before and after Kevin, so it
isn't that the ° mark used to designate ambiguity slipped a (single)
line.
Dr. So-and-so is off the mark, it seems to me.
Tom "mea culpa" Prufer
Hamilton
amr...@zetnet.co.uk.NOJUNK (Phil Edwards) wrote:
> pru...@compuserve.com (Thomas Prufer) wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 09 Oct 1998 13:05:44 GMT, pjl...@tooth.danae.med.uch.gr
> >(Philip Lees) wrote:
> >
> >>Kevin?
> >>
> >>Phil "not to mention" Lees
> >
> >It sez: "Kevin - engl. first name of Irish origin, pretty, graceful;
> >used as a woman's first name in Anglo-American".[1]
>
> Bizarre. In British use Kevin is very definitely male, & pretty
> strongly associated with the strong and stupid type at that. (Prolly
> anti-Irish racism in there somewhere).
>
> Phil "oh, er, hi Kevin" Edwards
I am a middle aged American who has lived all over the states -- I
know several Kevins -- none of them of any age are female.
Charles William Dimmick
>TWIABP, what can we add to that. I also have witnessed this habit more
>prominent in the US, where you have whole dynasties of "John Doe"and where
>the Sr and Jr are not enough, I have a friend who is "John Doe III".
It is not uncommon here (southern New England, US of A)
to find people with the nickname "Skip" or "Kip" denoting
the fact that they are in reality "insert name, name, name"
son of _____,____,_____ Jr.
and one occasionally finds other cases where
"insert name, name, name III" is an indication that he
is the third one in the family to have the name, but that
the first one was his great grandfather, not his
grandfather.
Charles Wm. Dimmick the first.
Bill Bedford
There was a famous one that was a gerbil.....................
Alex Elliott
: On Sun, 04 Oct 1998 21:15:34 +0300, "H.W.M." <mun...@spam.com> wrote:
: It is not uncommon here (southern New England, US of A)
: to find people with the nickname "Skip" or "Kip" denoting
: the fact that they are in reality "insert name, name, name"
: son of _____,____,_____ Jr.
: and one occasionally finds other cases where
: "insert name, name, name III" is an indication that he
: is the third one in the family to have the name, but that
: the first one was his great grandfather, not his
: grandfather.
Well, I'm a "III" and my father was a "II". He wasn't a junior because
he was named after his grandfather rather than his father.
Boys with a "III" appended on their name are sometimes called "Trip" or
"Trey" as a nickname (especially among the prep school set), although I
never was.
Alex.
>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<
Alex Elliott
Yale University Physics Department
New Haven, CT, USA
email: ell...@minerva.cis.yale.edu
WWW: http://pantheon.cis.yale.edu/~elliott
>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<>=<
JDWall5246
Don't know much about the laws on this, but I do know that, during WWII, loyal
German-Americans used nicknames like "Ace" or "Al" to hide the fact their name
was Adolf.
J.D. "Le Petomane Ancien" Wallace
JoAnne Schmitz
>In article <3629e40e...@news.zetnet.co.uk>,
>amr...@zetnet.co.uk.NOJUNK (Phil Edwards) wrote:
>
>> pru...@compuserve.com (Thomas Prufer) wrote:
>>
>> >On Fri, 09 Oct 1998 13:05:44 GMT, pjl...@tooth.danae.med.uch.gr
>> >(Philip Lees) wrote:
>> >
>> >>Kevin?
>> >>
>> >>Phil "not to mention" Lees
>> >
>> >It sez: "Kevin - engl. first name of Irish origin, pretty, graceful;
>> >used as a woman's first name in Anglo-American".[1]
>>
>> Bizarre. In British use Kevin is very definitely male, & pretty
>> strongly associated with the strong and stupid type at that. (Prolly
>> anti-Irish racism in there somewhere).
>>
>> Phil "oh, er, hi Kevin" Edwards
>
>
>I am a middle aged American who has lived all over the states -- I
>know several Kevins -- none of them of any age are female.
I have either met or corresponded in email with a female Kevin. Don't remember
which, and I don't think I am currently still in touch with her, so it would be
hard for me to cite.
JoAnne "and this is veering into f*nn* n*m*s again" Schmitz
----- some favorite web sites -----
general search: http://www.altavista.com (web) or http://www.dejanews.com (newsgroups)
UL search: http://www.urbanlengends.com or http://www.snopes.com
Lee Rudolph
>On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 16:21:40 GMT, hami...@DNVN.com (Hamilton) wrote:
>>
>>I am a middle aged American who has lived all over the states -- I
>>know several Kevins -- none of them of any age are female.
>
>I have either met or corresponded in email with a female Kevin. Don't remember
>which, and I don't think I am currently still in touch with her, so it would be
>hard for me to cite.
An AltaVista web search turns up at least half a dozen apparently
distinct individuals whose names begin with the string "Ms. Kevin",
suggesting that they are (or present themselves as) women. Like
Hamilton, I have never personally met any woman who has given me
reason to believe her name is "Kevin", and I'm astounded by this
phenomenon. But what can you say?
Lee "except that it's time to ease out of AFU; followups to misc.misc"
Rudolph
Alex Elliott
: In article <3629e40e...@news.zetnet.co.uk>,
: amr...@zetnet.co.uk.NOJUNK (Phil Edwards) wrote:
: > pru...@compuserve.com (Thomas Prufer) wrote:
: >
: > >It sez: "Kevin - engl. first name of Irish origin, pretty, graceful;
: > >used as a woman's first name in Anglo-American".[1]
: >
: > Bizarre. In British use Kevin is very definitely male, & pretty
: > strongly associated with the strong and stupid type at that. (Prolly
: > anti-Irish racism in there somewhere).
: I am a middle aged American who has lived all over the states -- I
: know several Kevins -- none of them of any age are female.
According to the U.S. Census Bureau's list of frequently used names
from the 1990 census at
http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/freqnames.html
Amongst male names, "Kevin" ranks #23 out of 1,219, with a total frequency
of 0.671% (in between "Anthony" and "Jason" in popularity).
Amongst female names, "Kevin" ranks #2,162 out of 4,275, with a total
frequency of 0.002%. (making it just slightly less popular than "Lien"
and just slightly more popular than "Gigi").
So Kevin isn't unheard of as a female name, but it's *much* less popular
than as a male name (one out of every 50,000 women as opposed to one out
of every 150 men).
Alex "0.258% of men[1], 0.071% of women[2]" Elliott.
[1] Sum of frequencies for "Alex", "Alexander", and "Alexis"
[2] Sum of frequencies for "Alex", "Alexandra", and "Alexis"
t...@wfn-shop.princeton.edu
In article <6vvh4e$es0$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu>, ell...@pantheon.yale.edu writes:
> Hamilton (hami...@DNVN.com) wrote:
> : In article <3629e40e...@news.zetnet.co.uk>,
> : amr...@zetnet.co.uk.NOJUNK (Phil Edwards) wrote:
>
> : > pru...@compuserve.com (Thomas Prufer) wrote:
> : >
> : > >It sez: "Kevin - engl. first name of Irish origin, pretty, graceful;
> : > >used as a woman's first name in Anglo-American".[1]
> : >
> : > Bizarre. In British use Kevin is very definitely male, & pretty
> : > strongly associated with the strong and stupid type at that. (Prolly
> : > anti-Irish racism in there somewhere).
>
> : I am a middle aged American who has lived all over the states -- I
> : know several Kevins -- none of them of any age are female.
>
> According to the U.S. Census Bureau's list of frequently used names
> from the 1990 census at
> http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/freqnames.html
>
> Amongst male names, "Kevin" ranks #23 out of 1,219, with a total frequency
> of 0.671% (in between "Anthony" and "Jason" in popularity).
>
> Amongst female names, "Kevin" ranks #2,162 out of 4,275, with a total
> frequency of 0.002%. (making it just slightly less popular than "Lien"
> and just slightly more popular than "Gigi").
Hmm. It seems that it isn't so much that "Kevin" is sometimes a
female name, but that women, in general, occasionally have male names.
I searched for a randomly chosen male name ("Timothy") and found it is
#3342 of 4275, with a frequency of 0.001%. "Timothy" ranks #27 among
males.
Other searches:
Mary (#1 female name) -> 0.009%, #699 for males.
James (#1 male name) -> 0.010%, #875 for females.
So the explanation doesn't seem to be that Kevin is (or can be) a female name.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Hollebeek | "Everything above is a true
email: t...@wfn-shop.princeton.edu | statement, for sufficiently
URL: http://wfn-shop.princeton.edu/~tim | false values of true."
Madeleine Page
: Hmm. It seems that it isn't so much that "Kevin" is sometimes a
: female name, but that women, in general, occasionally have male names.
: I searched for a randomly chosen male name ("Timothy") and found it is
: #3342 of 4275, with a frequency of 0.001%. "Timothy" ranks #27 among
: males.
: Other searches:
: Mary (#1 female name) -> 0.009%, #699 for males.
: James (#1 male name) -> 0.010%, #875 for females.
I am very disappointed to report that there is no boy named Sue.
Madeleine "though Josue is the 767th most popular male first name" Page
Viv
Madeleine Page wrote in message <700mk8$g...@panix2.panix.com>...
There are also, apparently, no USAn men named Viv----, and of those women
named Viv---- the majority of them spell it "Vivian" (ranked #184), which in
England and Australia is traditionally the male spelling. (Unless, of
course, one's family has christened one's siblings Tarquin and Iphigenia,
in which case the next male child may well get lumbered with Vyvyan)
Despite Vivien Leigh playing Scarlett O'Hara, this spelling only ranks
#2240, and there seem to be no USAn francophones naming their male children
"Vivien" as is the traditional French male version.
"Vivienne" (yay) is slightly more popular than "Vivien" at #2218. I now
understand why so many Seppos spell my name as if I were a bloke - TWIAVBP.
Vivienne "named after my Dad's uncle" Smythe
The most savage controversies are those about matters as to
which there is no good evidence either way. -- Bertrand Russell
Eric M. Fesh
: I am very disappointed to report that there is no boy named Sue.
:
: Madeleine "though Josue is the 767th most popular male first name" Page
If that's a Stone Temple Pilots reference, I've got a lot of reevaluation
to do... If not, (out of curiosity), just what is it a reference *to*?
Eric "Research, always friggin research..." Fesh
--
*************************************************************************
Eric M. Fesh: * "Napalm: nine out of ten Third-
em...@ra.msstate.edu * World children say it stings
* reeeeal bad." -Tim Hale
*************************************************************************
Check out my web page at http://www2.msstate.edu/~emf1 !!
*************************************************************************
Maggie Newman
>Madeleine Page (mp...@panix.com) wrote:
>: I am very disappointed to report that there is no boy named Sue.
>:
>: Madeleine "though Josue is the 767th most popular male first name" Page
>
>If that's a Stone Temple Pilots reference, I've got a lot of reevaluation
>to do... If not, (out of curiosity), just what is it a reference *to*?
>
Eric, do you honestly mean to tell me that you have not heard of
The Man in Black, Mr. Cash, or are you trolling me?
Maggie "before he left he went 'n' named me SUE" Newman
kim...@aol.com
>: I am very disappointed to report that there is no boy named Sue.
>: Madeleine "though Josue is the 767th most popular male first name" Page
>If that's a Stone Temple Pilots reference, I've got a lot of reevaluation
>to do... If not, (out of curiosity), just what is it a reference *to*?
a great deal. In either case, "oh dear".
-- Kim
Darren Paul Jones
>of 0.671% (in between "Anthony" and "Jason" in popularity).
>
>Amongst female names, "Kevin" ranks #2,162 out of 4,275, with a total
>frequency of 0.002%. (making it just slightly less popular than "Lien"
>and just slightly more popular than "Gigi").
>
>than as a male name (one out of every 50,000 women as opposed to one out
>of every 150 men).
>
I try to avoid women called Kevin whenever possible.
Are there any females called Brian or Roger?
--
D.Jones
David Martin
>
> >Amongst female names, "Kevin" ranks #2,162 out of 4,275, with a total
> >frequency of 0.002%. (making it just slightly less popular than "Lien"
> >and just slightly more popular than "Gigi").
> >
> >So Kevin isn't unheard of as a female name, but it's *much* less popular
> >than as a male name (one out of every 50,000 women as opposed to one out
> >of every 150 men).
> Are there any females called Brian or Roger?
I'm not sure what they are called, but in the US census
(http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/namesearch.html)
the name Brian is ranked number 3582 out of 4275 for females.
David "number 6 with a bullet(1)" Martin
(1) or was that an asterisk?
--
For the alt.folklore.urban FAQ see:
http://www.urbanlegends.com/afu.faq/ or
http://www.panix.com/~sean/afu/ or
E-mail mail-...@rtfm.mit.edu with "send
usenet/news.answers/folklore-faq/*" in the body of your message.
Me Again
>
> Darren Paul Jones wrote:
> >
>
> > >Amongst female names, "Kevin" ranks #2,162 out of 4,275, with a total
> > >frequency of 0.002%. (making it just slightly less popular than "Lien"
> > >and just slightly more popular than "Gigi").
> > >
> > >So Kevin isn't unheard of as a female name, but it's *much* less popular
> > >than as a male name (one out of every 50,000 women as opposed to one out
> > >of every 150 men).
>
> > Are there any females called Brian or Roger?
>
> I'm not sure what they are called, but in the US census
> (http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/namesearch.html)
> the name Brian is ranked number 3582 out of 4275 for females.
I wonder what name is #4275...
Eric M. Fesh
: Eric M. Fesh <em...@Ra.MsState.Edu> wrote:
: >Madeleine Page (mp...@panix.com) wrote:
: >: I am very disappointed to report that there is no boy named Sue.
: >:
: >: Madeleine "though Josue is the 767th most popular male first name" Page
: >
: >If that's a Stone Temple Pilots reference, I've got a lot of reevaluation
: >to do... If not, (out of curiosity), just what is it a reference *to*?
:
: Eric, do you honestly mean to tell me that you have not heard of
: The Man in Black, Mr. Cash, or are you trolling me?
Yes, I've heard *of* Mr. Cash. Knowing such a person exists and knowing
anything at all about his music are two different things. TW, as we all,
know, IAVBP.
Eric "Dunno, I was listening to New Age in the early 90's..." Fesh
David Martin
Allyn. No. 1 is Mary, with more than twice as many as
number 2, Patricia.
David "" Martin
Nathan Tenny
>David Martin wrote:
>> I'm not sure what they are called, but in the US census
>> (http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/namesearch.html)
>> the name Brian is ranked number 3582 out of 4275 for females.
>
>I wonder what name is #4275...
Allyn.
Actually, it looks to me like #s 4183 to 4275 tied for last place, probably
with only one representative in the sample (this stuff isn't based on the
whole census, but on a sample of 6,290,251 people). In addition to Allyn
(which looks male-but-weird to me), that group includes Russell, Virgil,
Vernon, Krishna, and Lester.
You gotta consider the possibility that a few people simply checked the
wrong box under "Sex", though. (Insert joke about answering "two or three
times a week".) Some could also be genuine errata; "Wilhemina" seems like
a good candidate.
NT
--
Nathan Tenny | Words I carry in my pocket, where they
Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA | breed like white mice.
<nten...@qualcomm.com> | - Lawrence Durrell
Me Again
>
> In article <36278F2F...@rahul.net>, Me Again <mag...@rahul.net> wrote:
> >David Martin wrote:
> >> I'm not sure what they are called, but in the US census
> >> (http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/namesearch.html)
> >> the name Brian is ranked number 3582 out of 4275 for females.
> >
> >I wonder what name is #4275...
>
> Allyn.
>
> Actually, it looks to me like #s 4183 to 4275 tied for last place, probably
> with only one representative in the sample (this stuff isn't based on the
> whole census, but on a sample of 6,290,251 people). In addition to Allyn
> (which looks male-but-weird to me), that group includes Russell, Virgil,
> Vernon, Krishna, and Lester.
>
> You gotta consider the possibility that a few people simply checked the
> wrong box under "Sex", though. (Insert joke about answering "two or three
> times a week".) Some could also be genuine errata; "Wilhemina" seems like
> a good candidate.
Hmmm. I thought one would *expect* Wilhemina on a list of female
names. Were you checking the female names or the male names?
And can you tell me how you get the whole list? I couldn't find the
list just the search index page.
TIA
jc "" ""
H.W.M.
Nathan Tenny wrote:
> Some could also be genuine errata; "Wilhemina" seems like
> a good candidate.
Are you implying something of my niece's name?
Henry Wilhelm >>> henry.w @ gnwmail.com <<<
*********************************************
* I could be bounded in a nut-shell, *
* and count myself a king of infinite space,*
* were it not that I have bad dreams *
*********************************************
deke.sp...@generous.net
>Maggie Newman (smne...@gsbux1.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>: Eric M. Fesh <em...@Ra.MsState.Edu> wrote:
>: >Madeleine Page (mp...@panix.com) wrote:
>: >: I am very disappointed to report that there is no boy named Sue.
>: >: Madeleine "though Josue is the 767th most popular male first name" Page
>: >If that's a Stone Temple Pilots reference, I've got a lot of reevaluation
>: >to do... If not, (out of curiosity), just what is it a reference *to*?
>: Eric, do you honestly mean to tell me that you have not heard of
>: The Man in Black, Mr. Cash, or are you trolling me?
>Yes, I've heard *of* Mr. Cash. Knowing such a person exists and knowing
>anything at all about his music are two different things. TW, as we all,
>know, IAVBP.
But Johnny Cash didn't write that song. He only recorded it. It was written by
Shel Silverstein.
deke
kim...@aol.com
> >: >to do... If not, (out of curiosity), just what is it a reference *to*?
> >: Eric, do you honestly mean to tell me that you have not heard of
> >: The Man in Black, Mr. Cash, or are you trolling me?
> >Yes, I've heard *of* Mr. Cash. Knowing such a person exists and knowing
> >anything at all about his music are two different things. TW, as we all,
> >know, IAVBP.
many different genres.
>But Johnny Cash didn't write that song. He only recorded it. It was written by
>Shel Silverstein.
genius of Shel Silverstein.
-- Kim
Andrew Welsh
: David Martin wrote:
: > I'm not sure what they are called, but in the US census
: > (http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/namesearch.html)
: > the name Brian is ranked number 3582 out of 4275 for females.
:
: I wonder what name is #4275...
I wouldn't worry, as neither my girlfriend nor her daughter's names appear
in the list (for either sex). Though I'm not sure how they handled
hyphenated names.
andrew
--
Andrew Welsh (and...@panix.com|and...@nufc.com|http://www.panix.com/~andreww)
Opinions expressed above are not necessarily endorsed by my employers.
'Cleanliness' is not next to 'Godliness', 'Goatsucker' is next to 'Godliness'
- Doug White
Tony Sweeney
> Nathan Tenny wrote:
>
> > Some could also be genuine errata; "Wilhemina" seems like
> > a good candidate.
>
> Are you implying something of my niece's name?
Probably taht she spells it Wilhelmina with two 'l's, kinda like yours
Nathan Tenny
Tony Sweeney <swe...@informix.com> wrote:
>H.W.M. wrote:
>> Nathan Tenny wrote:
>>
>> > Some could also be genuine errata; "Wilhemina" seems like
>> > a good candidate.
>>
>> Are you implying something of my niece's name?
>
>Probably taht she spells it Wilhelmina with two 'l's, kinda like yours
That was precisely my expectation.
However, in the wake of being twice corrected, I did a little investigation
and found that "Wilhemina" seems to be a fairly normal spelling of the
name in English, perhaps because Anglophone tongues have some trouble
wrapping around the second L in "Wilhelmina". "Willamina" also occurs.
So I retract my example. The point stands, though; the "how to read this
information" page points out that the name "Josehp" occurs in the male
file, and that they presume it's a typo for "Joseph" but can't summarily
correct it.
My profound apologies to everybody named Wilhemina. You'd think that
somebody whose names are both mipslelde more often than not would have
more of a clue about such things. Duh.
mitcho
>
> However, in the wake of being twice corrected, I did a little investigation
> and found that "Wilhemina" seems to be a fairly normal spelling of the
> name in English, perhaps because Anglophone tongues have some trouble
> wrapping around the second L in "Wilhelmina".
Hmm, and I have long noticed that the German city of Hannover is spelled
"Hanover" on English-language maps. What's with this Anglo-Saxon habit
of consonant conservation?
Mitcho
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mit...@netcom.com Urban Redneck of Goat Hill, California TR15 2BU
http://www.employees.org/~ozyman o http://www.urbanlegends.com