Forks in which hand?
snopes
Further evidence of approaching senility for Ann and Abby: a recent _Dear
Abby_ column tackling another UL-related topic:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEAR ABBY: In a recent column, a Clifton, N.J., reader asked why people
switched hands while eating with a knife and fork. This etiquette began in the
British North American colonies for a very good reason.
Almost all the colonists had grown up being taught to hold the fork in the
left hand and the knife in the right. Such a lifelong habit is not easily
abandoned.
Table knives in those days had very sharp edges and pointed tips to
effectively deal with the meats that, by modern standards, were somewhat on the
tough side.
As political opinions began to become more polarized between those loyal to
the crown and those advocating rebellion, hosts (particularly at taverns and
inns) found it advisable not to allow guests at tables to constantly have such
a weapon in their right hands.
They insisted that they knife be used only for brief periods, when
meat-cutting was required. And, to ensure that the knife would be placed on
the table (thus presenting less of a threat), that the fork be used with the
right hand.
Although this did not eliminate all violence in the dining area, it did
suffice to greatly reduce such incidents.
To lay down the knife and occupy the right hand with another less lethal
instrument became the symbol of peaceful intent and was generally adopted.
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Eating live worms shows a total disregard for living things. We take a |
| very dim view and just wish people could think of other ways to raise |
| money." |
| - Noeline Tamplin, RSPCA spokeswoman |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| David P. Mikkelson Calif. State Univ., Northridge Northridge, CA USA |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Rick
War II that Allied spys (especially US and British spys) were caught
because of the switching silverware custom? It seems that they forgot to
train spys in this minute area, and since Americans and British are the
only ones to do this, BAM you have a caught spy!
Terry Monks
: Did you know that since this arose out of British etiquette that in World
British people do not switch hands. The famous near-British commentator
George Mikes in his book on Americans called "How to Scrape Skies,"
attempted to explain American eating habits by pointing out that the
American eater takes on the part of both the mother and the child at a meal:
the mother cuts up the food, switches silverware, and the child eats it.
I have always wondered why (if American know-how is all it's cut out
to be) Americans don't sharpen the sides of their forks.
Terry "Patent Pending" Monks
--
Terry Monks t...@adiva.com Automata Design Inc (703) 742-9400
Jack Campin
This is obvious twaddle, since it's only the US that does this fork-
juggling; the British and other Europeans eat the same way. Is it
even common for Americans to believe that we eat the same way they do?
However, it does remind me of another UL about how to spot a German spy
that supposedly dates from WW2. This was that the British and German ways
of lacing shoes were different and a German agent would typically get it
wrong. Anyone else heard this one? I'm not even sure what the canonical
British way to lace shoes was meant to be.
=== Jack "personally, I eat like Jeff Goldblum with the donuts" Campin ===
--
-- Jack Campin -- Room 1.36, Department of Computing & Electrical Engineering,
Mountbatten Building, Heriot-Watt University, Riccarton, Edinburgh EH14 4AS
TEL: 031 449 5111 ext 4195 HOME: 031 556 5272 FAX: 031 451 3431
INTERNET: ja...@cee.hw.ac.uk BITNET: via UKACRL BANG!net: via mcsun & uknet
Vicki Robinson
>
>British people do not switch hands. The famous near-British commentator
>George Mikes in his book on Americans called "How to Scrape Skies,"
>attempted to explain American eating habits by pointing out that the
>American eater takes on the part of both the mother and the child at a meal:
>the mother cuts up the food, switches silverware, and the child eats it.
It would take a lot more than a book to explain American eating habits. But
if we're talking about use of silverware, I was told that we eat with our
right hands because the left one is busy holding our handguns on our laps so
that they don't fall off, and are available for instant use. I don't know why
we don't hold our guns in our right hands. I do, under my napkin, except at
home, where I just leave it on the table. But this was a French
person explaining this to me, so maybe that's the answer.
>
>I have always wondered why (if American know-how is all it's cut out
>to be) Americans don't sharpen the sides of their forks.
>
Hey, cool idea, and it gives new meaning to the expression "wide smile"
doesn't it?
>Terry "Patent Pending" Monks
Vicki "Pssst! Wanna buy a lip-guard?" Robinson
--
Vicki Robinson "It'll just lead to trouble,
Odd physics professor I know it will."
National Technical Institute for the Deaf -- Joel "Vicki Robinson"
VJR...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Furr, AFU, 1/19/94
Daniel B Case
>This is obvious twaddle, since it's only the US that does this fork-
>juggling; the British and other Europeans eat the same way. Is it
>even common for Americans to believe that we eat the same way they do?
Not when I've seen Brits eat hamburgers and hot dogs with a knife and fork, no.
>However, it does remind me of another UL about how to spot a German spy
>that supposedly dates from WW2. This was that the British and German ways
>of lacing shoes were different and a German agent would typically get it
>wrong. Anyone else heard this one? I'm not even sure what the canonical
>British way to lace shoes was meant to be.
I've heard several stories like this, about spies giving themselves away
through some seemingly insignificant practice that was done differently in
the country being spied on.
1) German spies in Russia (and perhaps the US) give themselves away by lighting
cigarettes differently. Americans-and Russians too, supposedly-will light their
cigarettes after putting them in their mouths, whereas Europeans will light them
first. Anybody have any practical observations? (This, incidentally, is how
Bruce Willis makes Alan Reichman in "Die Hard").
2) German spies in Russia give themselves away by the way they write the letter
"A". My Russian professor, a native speaker, told us this when teaching us how
to write in Cyrillic. Apparently the Germans would write the "A" as a large
version of "a", whereas written Cyrillic uses an "A" that has a bar and looks
more like the printed one.
3) IRA and UFF use pronunciation of letter "H" when spelled out to determine
if captives are really Catholic or Protestant-one group says "aitch" and other
says "haitch".
Dan "In what year did Babe Ruth hit 64 home runs?" Case
Daniel Case State University of New York at Buffalo
Prodigy: WDNS15D | GEnie: DCASE.10
Ceci n'est pas une pipe
V140...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu dc...@acsu.buffalo.edu
Helge Moulding
: ef...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Rick) wrote:
: > [Silverware etiquette traps German spies...]
: This is obvious twaddle,...
: However, it does remind me of another UL about how to spot a German spy
: that supposedly dates from WW2. This was that the British and German ways
: of lacing shoes were different and a German agent would typically get it
: wrong. Anyone else heard this one? I'm not even sure what the canonical
: British way to lace shoes was meant to be.
Lessee, I am German, and my shoes are laced:
starting under, crossing over (left on top), crossing under (left on top),
crossing over (left on top), crossing under (left on top), right end crosses
over and under left, make loop in left, wrap right once ccw around loop
and finish bow by pushing loop in right under knot.
But that's my right shoe. My left one is a bit different. And then my dress
shoes at home may lace differently again. And my soccer coach taught me
a truly bizarre method of lacing.
In fin, it sounds like BS to me... Of course, maybe there are Brits that
actually were beaten until they consistently got those laces right... I
read were British school masters have training in that sort of thing...
So you could tell a Gerry spy if his laces were sloppy...
--
Helge "So I'd just wear spats..." Moulding
(Just another guy with a weird name)
Helge Moulding
: In article <1994Feb9....@adimail.uucp>, t...@adimail.uucp (Terry Monks) writes:
: >
: >British people do not switch hands.[...]
: It would take a lot more than a book to explain American eating habits. But
: if we're talking about use of silverware, I was told that we eat with our
: right hands because the left one is busy holding our handguns on our laps so
: that they don't fall off, and are available for instant use. I don't know why
: we don't hold our guns in our right hands. I do, under my napkin, except at
: home, where I just leave it on the table. But this was a French
: person explaining this to me, so maybe that's the answer.[...]
What a story, huh? I was told that it was bad manners not to have both hands
on the table, wrists resting on the table's edge when not otherwise employed.
Then, going to the USA, the keepers of table etiquette informed me that here
I have to keep my left hand on my left leg, unless I need it for the knife.
Oh, yeah, and then I have to learn to switch knife and fork when cutting
meat. (No problem there - I didn't eat meat.) I, too, was told that the
hand under the table allowed Americans to hold onto the gun. Didn't surprise
me...
--
Helge "So I learned to shoot left-handed." Moulding
MHM
|> >However, it does remind me of another UL about how to spot a German spy
|> >that supposedly dates from WW2. This was that the British and German ways
|> >of lacing shoes were different and a German agent would typically get it
|> >wrong. Anyone else heard this one? I'm not even sure what the canonical
|> >British way to lace shoes was meant to be.
|>
|> I've heard several stories like this, about spies giving themselves away
|> through some seemingly insignificant practice that was done differently in
|> the country being spied on.
|>
|> 1) German spies in Russia (and perhaps the US) give themselves away by lighting
|> cigarettes differently. Americans-and Russians too, supposedly-will light their
|> cigarettes after putting them in their mouths, whereas Europeans will light them
|> first. Anybody have any practical observations? (This, incidentally, is how
|> Bruce Willis makes Alan Reichman in "Die Hard").
|>
|> 2) German spies in Russia give themselves away by the way they write the letter
|> "A". My Russian professor, a native speaker, told us this when teaching us how
|> to write in Cyrillic. Apparently the Germans would write the "A" as a large
|> version of "a", whereas written Cyrillic uses an "A" that has a bar and looks
|> more like the printed one.
|>
|> 3) IRA and UFF use pronunciation of letter "H" when spelled out to determine
|> if captives are really Catholic or Protestant-one group says "aitch" and other
|> says "haitch".
|>
|> Dan "In what year did Babe Ruth hit 64 home runs?" Case
Howdy,
My father had the mispleasure of being in the infantry during WW2.
Among the many stories he told as verifiable fact was as follows:
"In the trenches, at night, very stealthy, black-clad soldiers
would creep about touching the boot laces of those persons they
encountered. Were the boots laced in the 'Allies' crisscross
fashion, the person was spared. Were the boots laced in the
'German' horizontal fashion, the throat, indirectly attahed to
the boots, was cut."
Dear old dad was not pleased when I persisted in lacing up my tennis
shoes in the "German" horizontal fashion.
As for the lighting of cigarettes as a spy giveaway, I doubt it.
I have several European friends who light their cigarettes after
putting them in their mouths. Methinks, perhaps that this is a
bastardization of another "fact". Saith my father:
"When on the battlefield, never light any more than one cigarette
with the same match. To do so makes you an easy target for enemy
snipers (at night of course) due to the duration of the flame."
Fortunately, I don't smoke, so dear old dad only has to worry that
I'll have my throat slit 'cause of my laces.
bill nelson
: >
: >I have always wondered why (if American know-how is all it's cut out
: >to be) Americans don't sharpen the sides of their forks.
: >
: Hey, cool idea, and it gives new meaning to the expression "wide smile"
: doesn't it?
It could also be the source of the term "forked tongue".
Bill "Ngghth" Nelson
danny burstein
<discussion of spies messing up the little details skipped over>
Which, of course, brings up an Isaac Asimov (mhrip) story, or rather, a
fact article he wrote in Fantasy and Science Fiction. He was discussing eh
power of poetry and songs in shaping human opinion (as, example, 'listen
my children and you shall here...') and rambled on a bit.
One example he cited was a story (I believe he stated it was anectodotal,
but was useful for illustrative purposes). In early WW II a group of Nazis
had secretly moved into Russian territory and were, of course, wearing
Russian uniforms.
The local Wesley Crusher world savior sawe them and immediaately turned
them in as spies. How did he know? Because (Asimov relates), the weasal
noted that they (the spies) weren't laughing.
--
----------------------------------
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key!
-dan...@panix.com (or dbur...@mcimail.com)
(10288) 0-700-864-3242
Brian Scearce
> 1) German spies in Russia (and perhaps the US) give themselves away by
> lighting cigarettes differently. Americans - and Russians too,
> mouths, whereas Europeans will light them first.
Even ignoring the fact that it's a lot easier to get the ciggie started
when you're drawing air through it, I have this odd picture: Match in
one hand. Matchbook in the other. Cigarette in the third hand. Nope,
I don't buy it. With a lighter, it makes more sense, but the cigarette
protocols were no doubt worked out long before lighters became
popular.
> This, incidentally, is how Bruce Willis makes Alan Reichman in "Die
> Hard".
Ah! I knew it was right after he lit his cigarette, but I thought that
either (a) Alan Rictus' hand wasn't shaking enough for a terrified
businessman or (b) he had Galoises or some other odd foreign cancer
stick. Pity, because he had the American accent down pretty well.
It is for tidbits like this -- true or false, it doesn't matter -- that
I read AFU. Thank you, Dan.
> 3) IRA and UFF use pronunciation of letter "H" when spelled out to
> determine if captives are really Catholic or Protestant - one group
> says "aitch" and other says "haitch".
This, incidentally, is how the men of Gilead made the Ephraimites in
"Judges".
Brian "Spion!" Scearce
--
Brian Scearce b...@sector7g.eng.sun.com
The above does not necessarily represent Sun policy.
It's not Beavis and Butthead's fault that their viewers are as stupid as they are.
Paul Tomblin
> "In the trenches, at night, very stealthy, black-clad soldiers
> would creep about touching the boot laces of those persons they
> encountered. Were the boots laced in the 'Allies' crisscross
> fashion, the person was spared. Were the boots laced in the
> 'German' horizontal fashion, the throat, indirectly attahed to
> the boots, was cut."
When I was in the Canadian army, we were taught to lace our boots horizontal
fashion because it is easier to cut the laces and remove the boot if you're
wounded.
Paul "not to mention the fact that it takes less lace" Tomblin
--
Paul Tomblin - snide Canadian.
"I am not a signature virus, I am a human being" - Vicki Robinson
Daniel B Case
>In article <CKzJ4...@acsu.buffalo.edu> v140...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel B Case) writes:
>> 1) German spies in Russia (and perhaps the US) give themselves away by
>> lighting cigarettes differently. Americans - and Russians too,
>> supposedly - will light their cigarettes after putting them in their
>> mouths, whereas Europeans will light them first.
>
>Even ignoring the fact that it's a lot easier to get the ciggie started
>when you're drawing air through it, I have this odd picture: Match in
>one hand. Matchbook in the other. Cigarette in the third hand. Nope,
>I don't buy it. With a lighter, it makes more sense, but the cigarette
>protocols were no doubt worked out long before lighters became
>popular.
You've obviously never seen that Twilight Zone episode "Will The Real Martian
Please Stand Up?".
Well, try lighting the match off the book first with both hands, then picking
up the cigarette. In any event, lighters were involved-they were well in use at
that time.
>It is for tidbits like this -- true or false, it doesn't matter -- that
>I read AFU. Thank you, Dan.
You're welcome.
Dan "Trying my best" Case
David DeLaney
>v140...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel B Case) writes:
>> 1) German spies in Russia (and perhaps the US) give themselves away by
>> lighting cigarettes differently. Americans - and Russians too,
>> supposedly - will light their cigarettes after putting them in their
>> mouths, whereas Europeans will light them first.
>
>Even ignoring the fact that it's a lot easier to get the ciggie started
>when you're drawing air through it, I have this odd picture: Match in
>one hand. Matchbook in the other. Cigarette in the third hand. Nope,
>I don't buy it. With a lighter, it makes more sense, but the cigarette
>protocols were no doubt worked out long before lighters became popular.
Try this picture, then: Cigarette in one hand. Matchbook in the other.
Matchbook opened, match bent down with thumb (?) and struck while still
in matchbook, quite in defiance of "close cover before striking" legend.
Cigarette lit and transferred to mouth. Can't remember *which* mystery I
read that this turned out to be a clue in... but it's apparently one of the
medium-old-time (before lighters, but after lucifers) marks of the smoker...
Dave "will *not* inhale nicotine-containing gases for food" DeLaney
--
David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; ObQuote: `VISUALIZE BLONDE MELINDA' - T.
Pierce... Disclaimer: Opinions? Nope; Thinking about this disclaimer (or about
theoretical particle physics) may cause headaches. Not particularly interested__
in being Kibo, thanks. Vicki and Paul and Terry but not Barbara or Joel. VR#:1\/
Aris Gerakis
accent before he had the chance to use fork/knife/shoe. Any spy born/raised
in another country could never get their accent exactly right to blend
in with the locals.
--
Aris Gerakis
ar...@psssun.pss.msu.edu
Jack Campin
[ in a discussion about folkore ways to identify foreign spies,
like by the way they use cutlery or tie their shoelaces ]
> The whole discussion on spies is pointless; a spy would be caught by his
> accent before he had the chance to use fork/knife/shoe. Any spy born/raised
> in another country could never get their accent exactly right to blend in
> with the locals.
A spy doesn't have to exactly blend in with the locals: they only have to
sound like they're from another part of the country where they talk a bit
funny. A lot of Dutch and Scandinavian people manage this in the UK;
however, their native language is in the same family as English, and they
start learning English very young and devote a lot of school time to it.
A common rumour says that the CIA can train pretty near anyone to the level
of not-from-this-town-but-certainly-the-same-country in a fairly short time
(months at most). How plausible is this? Is there any publicly visible
training organization that can replicate that, and with a language at least
as remote from English as Russian?
[ Crossposted to sci.lang; watch followups. ]
Eddie Saxe
>The whole discussion on spies is pointless; a spy would be caught by his
>accent before he had the chance to use fork/knife/shoe. Any spy born/raised
>in another country could never get their accent exactly right to blend
>in with the locals.
Proven, of course, by the lack of any foreign agents in any country
anywhere in the world.
bah.
Eddie
--
Ceci n'est pas une signature
James Ronald Williams
>ar...@psssun.pss.msu.edu (Aris Gerakis) wrote in alt.folklore.urban:
>[ in a discussion about folkore ways to identify foreign spies,
> like by the way they use cutlery or tie their shoelaces ]
>> The whole discussion on spies is pointless; a spy would be caught by his
>> accent before he had the chance to use fork/knife/shoe. Any spy born/raised
>> in another country could never get their accent exactly right to blend in
>> with the locals.
[stuff about Dutch & Scandinavians in UK deleted]
>A common rumour says that the CIA can train pretty near anyone to the level
>of not-from-this-town-but-certainly-the-same-country in a fairly short time
>(months at most). How plausible is this? Is there any publicly visible
>training organization that can replicate that, and with a language at least
>as remote from English as Russian?
Sounds fairly plausible to me: It only took me 2 years while I was in college
to achieve learn to pronounce Spanish so well that when I studied in Puerto
Rico, most people assumed I was from another Spanish-speaking country until
told otherwise. And the only reason it took me 2 years was because I had to
deal with an English-speaking environment for all but a couple of hours a day.
I've no idea about public organisations, though, nor about the possibility
with other languages with major differences betwixt them. Anyone else...?
--
| ~~/~~ ______ | I don't care what they say, there is a sun, I saw it
| (__/ (_/ _/ / /_ | with my own eyes: There was a pale, silvery spot in the
| __/ | grey sky, and by golly, it felt warm on my face!
--
| ~~/~~ ______ | I don't care what they say, there is a sun, I saw it
| (__/ (_/ _/ / /_ | with my own eyes: There was a pale, silvery spot in the
| __/ | grey sky, and by golly, it felt warm on my face!
Daniel B Case
>> "In the trenches, at night, very stealthy, black-clad soldiers
>> would creep about touching the boot laces of those persons they
>> encountered. Were the boots laced in the 'Allies' crisscross
>> fashion, the person was spared. Were the boots laced in the
>> 'German' horizontal fashion, the throat, indirectly attahed to
>> the boots, was cut."
>
>When I was in the Canadian army, we were taught to lace our boots horizontal
>fashion because it is easier to cut the laces and remove the boot if you're
>wounded.
Aha. The real reason why the Canadian troops were sacrificed at Dieppe.
Dan "Standards must be maintained in all Allied armies" Case
Daniel B Case
>ar...@psssun.pss.msu.edu (Aris Gerakis) wrote in alt.folklore.urban:
>[ in a discussion about folkore ways to identify foreign spies,
> like by the way they use cutlery or tie their shoelaces ]
>> The whole discussion on spies is pointless; a spy would be caught by his
>> accent before he had the chance to use fork/knife/shoe. Any spy born/raised
>> in another country could never get their accent exactly right to blend in
>> with the locals.
>
>A spy doesn't have to exactly blend in with the locals: they only have to
>sound like they're from another part of the country where they talk a bit
>funny.
Case in point: Lee Harvey Oswald, whose Russian was such that Marina thought
he was from a non-Russian republic of the USSR (frequently misinterpreted by
overzealous conspiracy theorists to "She thought he was a native Russian; his
Russian was so good")
A lot of Dutch and Scandinavian people manage this in the UK;
>however, their native language is in the same family as English, and they
>start learning English very young and devote a lot of school time to it.
Swedes are especially good at this-I know some that not only have developed
near-perfect American English, but actually have pretty good American regional
accents.
that the CIA can train pretty near anyone to the level
>(months at most). How plausible is this? Is there any publicly visible
>training organization that can replicate that, and with a language at least
>as remote from English as Russian?
Well, Russian isn't that remote from English IME, but that's what five years of
studying it will do for you.
The CIA either sends people to the Defense Language Institute, or has something
similar of its own-I'm not sure which.
Dan "Immersion in either case" Case
Aris Gerakis
>A spy doesn't have to exactly blend in with the locals: they only have to
>sound like they're from another part of the country where they talk a bit
>funny.
[...]
Even if that's true, how about idioms and expressions?
It's not only accent, it's also whether they use the lift or the
elevator.
>A common rumour says that the CIA can train pretty near anyone to the level
>of not-from-this-town-but-certainly-the-same-country in a fairly short time
>(months at most). How plausible is this? Is there any publicly visible
>training organization that can replicate that, and with a language at least
>as remote from English as Russian?
>[ Crossposted to sci.lang; watch followups. ]
>--
>-- Jack Campin -- Room 1.36, Department of Computing & Electrical Engineering,
> Mountbatten Building, Heriot-Watt University, Riccarton, Edinburgh EH14 4AS
>TEL: 031 449 5111 ext 4195 HOME: 031 556 5272 FAX: 031 451 3431
>INTERNET: ja...@cee.hw.ac.uk BITNET: via UKACRL BANG!net: via mcsun & uknet
--
Aris Gerakis
ar...@psssun.pss.msu.edu
Bob Hiebert CDS
switching hands for knives and forks during the ritual eating process.
Personally, my left hand is so uncoordinated that neither knives nor
forks can be used. This would be a plausible couter-argument, except
for the geographical location referenced in the article.
Since my origins trace back through Russia/Germany, are there any stories
that would explain the difference in eating habits, since the knife
issue is common to all human types?
hibob
--
----------------------------
Engineering Manager Type |
Not Speaking for Tektronix |
Paul Tomblin
>Since my origins trace back through Russia/Germany, are there any stories
>that would explain the difference in eating habits, since the knife
>issue is common to all human types?
Oh? Are the chopstick users of the world not human? How about the people
who eat with their hands, or with a piece of roti torn off in the hand?
I'd think that accounts of over 50% of the worlds population.
Personally, I tend to believe the theory that it started on the frontier
where you only had one sharp knife for the whole family, so you cut
everything up, and then put the knife back for somebody else to use.
BTW: Most Canadians, in my experience, do it the "Euro-way", cut a slice, eat
it, cut a slice, eat it, never switching hands. Some Americans do it that
way too, but most cut everything first, then switch hands and start eating.
Paul "Will pick up food with naan for ... food" Tomblin
Barbara Hamel
In a previous article, ab...@freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Tomblin) says:
>BTW: Most Canadians, in my experience, do it the "Euro-way", cut a slice, eat
>it, cut a slice, eat it, never switching hands. Some Americans do it that
>way too, but most cut everything first, then switch hands and start eating.
I have to disagree with you on this, Paul. I'm a Canadian too, and just
about everyone I know uses a "primary hand" method of eating with knife
and fork. By this I mean knife in primary hand and fork in secondary
hand for cutting, then fork in primary hand for eating. In fact, some
people consider it rude for guests sit there with a utensil in each hand
-- looks like they came only for the food and not the conversation. One
hostess I know was quite dismayed by the table manners of her British
guests; she said "they looked like they were just waiting for a break in
the conversation so they could go back to attacking their dinner."
I also believe it is not considered proper to cut up everything on your
plate in one go. I had heard you are supposed to cut off whatever you
deem proper for a forkful and then eat it, and only then go back to cut
something else up.
Barbara "born in Ottawa, Canada and never lived anywhere else" Hamel
--
Barbara Hamel | Chaos is six women and one luncheon check.
ag...@freenet.carleton.ca |
Ottawa, Canada | - The Best Of Bridge
Kevin Haskel Rubin
>In a previous article, ab...@freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Tomblin) says:
>I also believe it is not considered proper to cut up everything on your
>plate in one go. I had heard you are supposed to cut off whatever you
>deem proper for a forkful and then eat it, and only then go back to cut
>something else up.
I'm not at all consistant about how I cut and eat my food. I once did
manage to get yelled at horribly by my grandmother at breakfast for cutting
all my pancakes. In a very horrible, loud voice "Don't play with you're
food. You're just playing with your food. I didn't get up early to cook
you pancakes so you could play with them. You cut a piece then you eat it,
then you cut a piece then you eat it." This was in New Jersey, where there
shouldn't be any sort of culture (just a little more than here in Oregon.)
-kevin
--
Any opinions expressed are probably mine. There
gn...@teleport.com -- probably isn't a pattern as to whether or not they're
TECHbooks.
Brian Scearce
> Any spy born/raised in another country could never get their accent
> exactly right to blend in with the locals.
The newscaster Peter Jennings has logged billions of man-hours of
having his speech listened to, and probably very few of his listeners
know that he was born abroad.
Brian "no, I *don't* mean he used to be a woman" Scearce
Chris Grace
>>ar...@psssun.pss.msu.edu (Aris Gerakis) wrote in alt.folklore.urban:
>>[ in a discussion about folkore ways to identify foreign spies,
>> like by the way they use cutlery or tie their shoelaces ]
>>> The whole discussion on spies is pointless; a spy would be caught by his
>>> accent before he had the chance to use fork/knife/shoe. Any spy born/raised
>>> in another country could never get their accent exactly right to blend in
>>> with the locals.
>>
>>A spy doesn't have to exactly blend in with the locals: they only have to
>>sound like they're from another part of the country where they talk a bit
>>funny.
>
>Case in point: Lee Harvey Oswald, whose Russian was such that Marina thought
>he was from a non-Russian republic of the USSR (frequently misinterpreted by
>overzealous conspiracy theorists to "She thought he was a native Russian; his
>Russian was so good")
>
> A lot of Dutch and Scandinavian people manage this in the UK;
>>however, their native language is in the same family as English, and they
>>start learning English very young and devote a lot of school time to it.
>
>Swedes are especially good at this-I know some that not only have developed
>near-perfect American English, but actually have pretty good American regional
>accents.
>
which I can only assume the picked up from military personnel in the
Philippines since they had come directly from there to Australia (where
I was living at the time) and had never been to the US. I have seen a
similar thing with Chinese from Hong Kong as well, and Indians who have
been to University in Canada.
Robert Knippen
>It only took me 2 years while I was in college
>to achieve learn to pronounce Spanish so well that when I studied in Puerto
>Rico, most people assumed I was from another Spanish-speaking country until
>told otherwise. And the only reason it took me 2 years was because I had to
>deal with an English-speaking environment for all but a couple of hours a day.
Spanish is an exceptional case with respect to fooling native
speakers into thinking you are a native speaker of Spanish from
somewhere else. Anyone who's been to a linguistic conference
paper where data from Spanish is discussed can vouch for this;
The most basic facts of Spanish are hotly contested by audience
members who speak a different variety. The point is, there are
zillions of kinds of Spanish, and Spanish speakers know this.
Furthermore, most Spanish speakers haven't been subjected to
the myth that there is some privileged variety of Spanish.
Try this with French some time; French purists have been known
to tell Canadians that they don't even speak French.
Chico Jablonski
Americans do generally pretty bad with Portuguese, but I've found an
outstanding exception here in Austin, Texas: there's a singer, Suzana Sharpe
who dominates well enough the pronunciation within the "last flower of
Latio" to have recorded a CD with most of the tracks sung in Portuguese!
And it's nothing that clear and easy like Portuguese from Rio Grande
do Sul or Santa Catarina. She manages very well the accents
from the Northeast of Brazil. My parents, 2nd and 3rd generation brazi-
lians would not be recognized as such in Rio or Sao Paulo due to their
strong accent. Suzanna could easily do it!
The first time I heard her I was kinda slightly "impaired" by a
couple of beers, but I tell you, I only began to notice traces
of accent *after* people told me she is American.
Chico Jablonski
Andrew Lewis
> [...]
>I have always wondered why (if American know-how is all it's cut out
>to be) Americans don't sharpen the sides of their forks.
>Terry "Patent Pending" Monks
Don't hold your breath on that patent, Terry. An Australian has already
invented it. It's called a "splade" and resembles a spoon with tines and
sharpened sides (not particularly sharp for obvious reasons). Quite
popular with some, even though Aussies also do not "switch", as you can
eat *and* hold a beer...
Andrew "Just love perpetuating national stereotypes" Lewis
Juan Molinari
>zillions of kinds of Spanish, and Spanish speakers know this.
>Furthermore, most Spanish speakers haven't been subjected to
>the myth that there is some privileged variety of Spanish.
>Try this with French some time; French purists have been known
>to tell Canadians that they don't even speak French.
Sorry to get into a cultural debate here, but I beg to differ slightly.
Up until recently, most of latin america (Mexico is a clear example) was under
the collective impression that Spaniards, and people who spoke "proper spanish"
(i.e., with a Spanish accent) were of a "high breed" than people who spoke
with a local accent. This was exemplified in such films as those depicting a
Spanish-speaking, white-skinned Jesus living among darker-skinned people who
spoke with a Mexican accent (this is a mexican film, made for and by mexicans).
It is only recently (50 years?) that latin americans have come to
realize that, not only is that type of thinking ludicrous, but it is also
mathematically inconsistent; latin american outnumbers Spain in population many
times over.
So you see, people WERE fed the "proper spanish is better"
imperialistic propaganda for centuries, but somehow they managed to outgrow it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Juan G. Molinari ________ 465 Grace Watson Hall
ju...@clark.net \ HI! / RIT
jgm...@ritvax.rit.edu \ / Rochester, NY 14623
jgm...@hendrix.cs.rit.edu \ /
jgm...@ultb-isc.rit.edu \/ (716) 475-3643
Suicide is our way of saying to god:
"You can't fire me, I QUIT!"
bill nelson
:
: hand for cutting, then fork in primary hand for eating. In fact, some
: -- looks like they came only for the food and not the conversation. One
: hostess I know was quite dismayed by the table manners of her British
: guests; she said "they looked like they were just waiting for a break in
: the conversation so they could go back to attacking their dinner."
Sheeh! What do they expect us to do - sit there until the food gets cold,
just because the host/hostess wants to blab for an hour or two? If they
want to do that, they can do so - before or after dinner.
Bill
Daniel B Case
>Try this with French some time; French purists have been known
>to tell Canadians that they don't even speak French.
Well of course-just go to Vancouver some time.
*Quebecers* have been known to tell Canadians they don't speak French-because
they really can't.
Seriously, I know what you meant, and this recalls a UL that we've discussed
here on AFU...
Quebecer goes to Paris, stops at small bistro, orders in French. Waiter takes
order, then returns with an English version of the menu.
Doubly insulting to a Quebecer, of course, and told by Anglo-Canadians with some
glee, especially in light of recent events. Anybody know of this actually
happening somewhere?
Dan "Mais garcon, je suis de Montreal..." Case
Paul Tomblin
>Doubly insulting to a Quebecer, of course, and told by Anglo-Canadians with some
>glee, especially in light of recent events. Anybody know of this actually
>happening somewhere?
No, but at GeoVision when I started, they were very short of desks. So my
buddy Daniel, who was probably the first francophone they'd ever hired, ended
up sharing a desk with Eric Bienvenue, a co-op student from France. Within
hours, they decided that they hated each other's French, and would only speak
English to each other.
Paul "And I shared a conference room with three other guys" Tomblin
DaveHatunen
>In article <1994Feb13....@midway.uchicago.edu>, rm...@midway.uchicago.edu writes...
>>Try this with French some time; French purists have been known
>>to tell Canadians that they don't even speak French.
>
>Well of course-just go to Vancouver some time.
>
>*Quebecers* have been known to tell Canadians they don't speak French-because
>they really can't.
>
>Seriously, I know what you meant, and this recalls a UL that we've discussed
>here on AFU...
>
>Quebecer goes to Paris, stops at small bistro, orders in French. Waiter takes
>order, then returns with an English version of the menu.
>
>Doubly insulting to a Quebecer, of course, and told by Anglo-Canadians with some
>glee, especially in light of recent events. Anybody know of this actually
>happening somewhere?
>
>Dan "Mais garcon, je suis de Montreal..." Case
When my French teacher at U of Louisville found out I was going to
graduate school in Montreal he got a very deep frown and lamented that
I had a very good accent and Quebec would ruin it. He was from France.
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@netcom.com) **********
* Daly City California: *
* where San Francisco meets The Peninsula *
* and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea *
*******************************************************
Pierre Jelenc
Daniel B Case <v140...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>
>Quebecer goes to Paris, stops at small bistro, orders in French. Waiter takes
>order, then returns with an English version of the menu.
>
>Doubly insulting to a Quebecer, of course, and told by Anglo-Canadians with some
>glee, especially in light of recent events. Anybody know of this actually
>happening somewhere?
No, but I did have to resort to English once in Quebec City when talking
to someone whose accent was utterly impenetrable. Never had that problem
in Montreal.
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
rc...@panix.com
Larry M Headlund
v140...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel B Case) writes:
>In article <1994Feb13....@midway.uchicago.edu>,
jm...@midway.uchicago.edu writes...
>>Try this with French some time; French purists have been known
>>to tell Canadians that they don't even speak French.
>
>Seriously, I know what you meant, and this recalls a UL that we've discussed
>here on AFU...
>
>order, then returns with an English version of the menu.
>
>Douby insulting to a Quebecer, of course, and told by Anglo-Canadians with
some >glee, especially in light of recent events. Anybody know of this actually
>happening somewhere?
>
In a related, but verifiable incident, it was reported that the Quebec
film _Decline and Fall of the American Empire_ was shown in France
with French subtitles.
Interested students may wish to compare and contrast with the Jamaican
film _The Harder They Come_, shown in the US with English subtitles.
Larry "Frankly, I wish _Letter to Breznev_ had subtitles", Headlund
--
Larry Headlund l...@world.std.com Eikonal Systems (617) 482-3345
Unix, X and Motif Consulting Motif on Ascii Terminals!
Stephen Kelley
-
- In a related, but verifiable incident, it was reported that the Quebec
- film _Decline and Fall of the American Empire_ was shown in France
- with French subtitles.
- Interested students may wish to compare and contrast with the Jamaican
- film _The Harder They Come_, shown in the US with English subtitles.
-
- Larry "Frankly, I wish _Letter to Breznev_ had subtitles", Headlund
And the Aussie flick 'Mad Max' which was simply dubbed into English.
Steve Kelley
Christopher Neufeld
>>Try this with French some time; French purists have been known
>>to tell Canadians that they don't even speak French.
>
>order, then returns with an English version of the menu.
>
point I was talking with one of the firefighters there who run the
late-night taxi service for the lab. He was from France, and we started
talking in French, and as soon as I started talking he gave me a wide
stare and asked where I was from. I had to make a conscious effort to
speak real French instead of the joual I picked up at camp.
>Dan "Mais garcon, je suis de Montreal..." Case
>
J'y y vinte aussi, moy.
Errr, I mean, "je viens aussi de Montreal"
--
Christopher Neufeld....Just a graduate student neu...@physics.utoronto.ca
"Don't edit reality for | "The nerd projection operator recovers most of his
the sake of simplicity" | amplitude." Insult, probably self-referential.
| -rw-rw-rw- : the file permission of the beast
Paul Tomblin
>film _The Harder They Come_, shown in the US with English subtitles.
So was "Reggae Sunsplash". It was shown on Canadian TV with absolutely lousy
sound, and straight subtitles. I was hoping for an attempt to translate into
normal english, like Barbara Billingsly in "Airplane".
Paul "I and I mash you man. Me vex" Tomblin
Linda Richards
> French purists have been known to tell Canadians that they don't even speak
> French.
Umm... *English* purists have known to tell Canadians that they don't even
speak French.
Linda "for the record, I don't speak French" Richards
--
Linda Richards I understand it is
Linda_R...@mindlink.bc.ca bad luck to mention
Joel Furr in your
The Axeman is a close personal friend of mine. signature.
James Nicoll + Jasmine
I used to work in a library, and the person who trained me was
Jamaican, with a very thick accent. I find that particular accent difficult
to understand, which prolonged the training period and I think convinced
her I was making fun of her accent *sigh*.
My first accent was cockney. My father was born and raised in
Lancaster County, PA. As it turns out, he couldn't figure out what I was
saying. We may have been one of the few father-son pairs who required
translators to communicate. Once we moved back to Canada, I picked up
a Southern Ontario accent which, while bland, is similar enough to
Pennsylvania English that direct communication was possible. For some
reason, when I talk in my sleep, I still have that cockney accent, though.
James Nicoll
--
If mail bounces, try jdni...@engrg.uwo.ca
"That's not science, that's just pyromania." "Oh. That's OK."
Alan Munn
Larry M Headlund <l...@world.std.com> wrote:
>In a related, but verifiable incident, it was reported that the Quebec
>film _Decline and Fall of the American Empire_ was shown in France
>with French subtitles.
Can somebody actually verify this? Since the main characters in
Decline of the American Empire were Montreal academics, they all spoke
a very 'standard' French. The degree to which Quebecois differs from
what one might call "International" french varies almost directly with
socio-economic class with some political overtones thrown in. I doubt
that Decline was subtitled. I don't recall there being any joual in
it at all.
Also, don't the French tend to dub rather than subtitle?
Alan
--
Alan Munn <am...@monad.missouri.edu> NeXTmail Welcome
Dept. of English, University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211
Gerald Belton
>>to achieve learn to pronounce Spanish so well that when I studied in Puerto
>>Rico, most people assumed I was from another Spanish-speaking country until
>Spanish is an exceptional case with respect to fooling native
>speakers into thinking you are a native speaker of Spanish from
>somewhere else. Anyone who's been to a linguistic conference
My father-in-law spent six weeks every year in Italy until very
recently; his Italian is nearly perfect.
A few years ago he gave a speech in Panama City. Not wanting to speak
through a translator, he had the speech translated into Spanish and he
then proceeded to memorize it. At the reception following the speech,
the most frequently asked question was, "What part of Italy are you
from?" It seems that he speaks Spanish with an *Italian*, rather than
American, accent.
---
. SLMR 2.1 . .I think this k..b..rd w.s m.d. in M.xico! .No?
----
The Ozone Hole BBS * SKYDIVE New Orleans! * (504)891-3142 * V.32bis/HST
Gerald Belton
>of not-from-this-town-but-certainly-the-same-country in a fairly short time
>(months at most). How plausible is this? Is there any publicly visible
>training organization that can replicate that, and with a language at least
>as remote from English as Russian?
Ever listen to Radio Moscow on shortwave? The announcers sound British
to my American ear.
---
. SLMR 2.1 . After we pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is NOT our friend!
cask...@ix.wcc.govt.nz
> "In the trenches, at night, very stealthy, black-clad soldiers
> would creep about touching the boot laces of those persons they
> encountered. Were the boots laced in the 'Allies' crisscross
> fashion, the person was spared. Were the boots laced in the
> 'German' horizontal fashion, the throat, indirectly attahed to
> the boots, was cut."
Before he died, my grandfather often told me tales of the time he spent in
the trenches in World War One. On one occasion, he related, he and two
comrades were sleeping in a small dugout after completing their watch.
When he awoke, he discovered that the man in the middle had had his throat
neatly slit in his sleep. Tragically, he had laced his boots the wrong
way.
Steve "he hasn't told me any _since_ he died" Caskey
___________________________________________________________________________
Steve Caskey (cask...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz)
Disclaimer: If anyone cared what I thought I'd be rich and famous.
"War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it."
Desiderius Erasmus, 1466-1536 (minVRsigref)
Daniel B Case
>v140...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel B Case) writes:
>[quebecois given english menu in paris]
>
>>Doubly insulting to a Quebecer, of course, and told by Anglo-Canadians with some
>>glee, especially in light of recent events. Anybody know of this actually
>>happening somewhere?
>
>No, but at GeoVision when I started, they were very short of desks. So my
>buddy Daniel, who was probably the first francophone they'd ever hired, ended
>up sharing a desk with Eric Bienvenue, a co-op student from France. Within
>hours, they decided that they hated each other's French, and would only speak
>English to each other.
This reminds of some story I heard about one of the World Philosophy Congresses,
where the German attendees listened to the simultaneous English translation of a
paper being given by Juergen Habermas rather than the original, because his
German was so incomprehensible to them. Why was this?