"Freeze motherstickers, this is a.."
Surfbus
includes the following tale on P6:
"A thief burst into a Florida bank waving a gun and screamed 'freeze
mother-stickers, this is a fuck-up!' The staff dissolved into hysterics and
the would-be robber fled in humiliation."
Source: The Week, 18 May 2002
I've also heard this item as part of stand-up comedian Peter Kay's routine,
so I'm wondering if the tale has any grounding in reality?
Charles Wm. Dimmick
Well, it does say it happened in Florida, and that's the way
I heard it also, told to be when I was living in Florida, which
means before 1960, so the story has been around a long time.
Charles
Bob Ward
wrote:
The version I know goes "Freeze, motherstickers, this is a fuck-up.
Throw your ass in the air or I'll blow your hands off!"
Louise Bremner
Wasn't a sawn-off shotgun involved, with the bank teller bursting out
laughing and saying "No, no, you're supposed to saw off the _other_
end"?
Or am I mixing up two similar jokes?
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Burroughs Guy
> Wasn't a sawn-off shotgun involved, with the bank teller bursting out
> laughing and saying "No, no, you're supposed to saw off the _other_
> end"?
Am I malinformed of what a saw-doff is? I thought you shortened both
the stock and the barrel.
--
Burroughs Guy
Vaguer memories available upon request
Louise Bremner
> Louise Bremner wrote:
>
> > Wasn't a sawn-off shotgun involved, with the bank teller bursting out
> > laughing and saying "No, no, you're supposed to saw off the _other_
> > end"?
>
> Am I malinformed of what a saw-doff is? I thought you shortened both
> the stock and the barrel.
Hmmmmmm... Since I've never seen one so modified, I thought it was only
the barrel. Oh well, maybe that's why the joke falls flat....
Gerald Clough
> Louise Bremner wrote:
>
>
>>Wasn't a sawn-off shotgun involved, with the bank teller bursting out
>>laughing and saying "No, no, you're supposed to saw off the _other_
>>end"?
>
>
> Am I malinformed of what a saw-doff is? I thought you shortened both
> the stock and the barrel.
It varies. Can mean the barrel or the barrel and stock. With both sawn
off, it's been called a whippit, since you can carry it conveniently
under a coat and whit it out.
--
Gerald Clough
"Nothing has any value, unless you know you can give it up."
JC Dill
<firstiniti...@texas.net> wrote:
>Burroughs Guy wrote:
>> Louise Bremner wrote:
>>
>>>Wasn't a sawn-off shotgun involved, with the bank teller bursting out
>>>laughing and saying "No, no, you're supposed to saw off the _other_
>>>end"?
>>
>> Am I malinformed of what a saw-doff is? I thought you shortened both
>> the stock and the barrel.
>
>It varies. Can mean the barrel or the barrel and stock.
Googling, I learned that the barrel is sawed off so that the shot will
spray in a wider pattern. Apparently this makes the gun more
effective at hitting your quarry in close quarters because you don't
have to be especially accurate with your aim to inflict damage on your
target. The stock may optionally also be sawed off to make the gun
smaller, easier to hide and/or shoot with one hand. Sawing the stock
alone doesn't make it a "sawed off shotgun" while sawing the barrel
alone does.
jc
PC Paul
news:f9cpc11c857qvmljr...@4ax.com...
Both ends makes it a 'Lupo' in some circles I believe.
For the sake of the joke, I always understood the premise to be that the
criminal had brought the sawn-off bit with them... i.e. just the two empty
barrels.
TOliver
"JC Dill" <jcd...@gmail.com> wrote...
>
> Googling, I learned that the barrel is sawed off so that the shot will
> spray in a wider pattern. Apparently this makes the gun more
> effective at hitting your quarry in close quarters because you don't
> have to be especially accurate with your aim to inflict damage on your
> target. The stock may optionally also be sawed off to make the gun
> smaller, easier to hide and/or shoot with one hand. Sawing the stock
> alone doesn't make it a "sawed off shotgun" while sawing the barrel
> alone does.
>
As an old shotgunner (and owner over time of several "sawed offs" - all of
at least the required remaining 18" to not disaffect the feds), I maintain
that your Googling was back-ass-wards.
Shotguns are built with a section of the barrel near the muzzle narrowed
("choked") to limit the spread of shot (or with patent devices such as
adjustable "Polychokes" attached to the barrel or in many modern shotguns -
especially side by side and over and under doubles with detachable short
tubes offering a variety of constriction of the pattern).
Choke patterns include "Open" (none at all) through "Skeet",
"Cylinder","Modified" and all the way to "Full", the tightest of all, most
often found in guns used for ducks and geese, etc.
Cut off the barrels to make a gun short and convenient (for carrying beneath
the seat of the statge coach or robbing convenience stores) and the "choke"
is gone, leaving an "Open-bored" gun.
Barrels are cut off to make an easy handling and on occasion concealable
gun, not to open the choke, a subtlety beyond the ken of most folks who
perform the task with a hacksaw. An owner of a shotgun who wanted to alter
choke would in the case of a pump or semi-auto simply buy a replacement
barrel or take himself unto a specialist gunsmith. Double gunners face more
expensive options, but double guns of quality are expensive themselves.
As for cutting off the buttstock......you've been watching too much TV.
While firing something other than an Express, High Velocity or Magnum load
from a stockless 20, 28 gauge or .410 works, no robber goes convenience
storing with a small bore shotgun, anda 12 gauge without a buttstock is more
than a handful (and with a barrel sawen off to twelve inches or so, at
anyhting but point blank across the counter range the pattern will be
display counter in size).
A "Lupari" is a short barreled "side by side" double (usually of cheap
Spanish manufacture and perhaps with a shortened but not sawn off buttstock)
favored for more than century by Sicilian landowners (and their hired men)
with orange groves or daughters to protect. Because of handiness and ease,
the weapon found favor among the Respected Families and even made the long
Transatlantic journey to the States in connection with the establishment of
US affiliate operations.
There are several shotguns sold by US gun dealers (most from Rossi of
Brazil) which come from the factory with 18" barrels, the shortest permitted
by federal law (without special license). They are variously "choked" at
manufacture to provide a pattern capable of putting enough shot (BBs of
various sizes depending on the label - "00" - large "buck shot" - up to #9,
tiny) close enough to the point of aim to damage the target severely at
about 25 yards. Even a choked 18" barrled gun is unlikely to deliver
satisfactory perfoirmance much beyond that range, while longer barreled full
choked guns deliver a tight pattern out to 50 yards or so. I hunt quail
with a 20 gauge gun rebarreled to a bit over 20", light short and handy for
the rapid swings of close range field shooting. For dove, I favor a 20
gauge with a 24" barrel and a tighter choke to "reach out and touch" the
extremely fast birds at longer range.
TM "That'll teach you not to Google." Oliver
JC Dill
wrote:
>
>"JC Dill" <jcd...@gmail.com> wrote...
>
>>
>> Googling, I learned that the barrel is sawed off so that the shot will
>> spray in a wider pattern. Apparently this makes the gun more
>> effective at hitting your quarry in close quarters because you don't
>> have to be especially accurate with your aim to inflict damage on your
>> target. The stock may optionally also be sawed off to make the gun
>> smaller, easier to hide and/or shoot with one hand. Sawing the stock
>> alone doesn't make it a "sawed off shotgun" while sawing the barrel
>> alone does.
>>
>As an old shotgunner (and owner over time of several "sawed offs" - all of
>at least the required remaining 18" to not disaffect the feds), I maintain
>that your Googling was back-ass-wards.
>
>Shotguns are built with a section of the barrel near the muzzle narrowed
>("choked") to limit the spread of shot (or with patent devices such as
>adjustable "Polychokes" attached to the barrel or in many modern shotguns -
>especially side by side and over and under doubles with detachable short
>tubes offering a variety of constriction of the pattern).
<snip>
>Barrels are cut off to make an easy handling and on occasion concealable
>gun, not to open the choke, a subtlety beyond the ken of most folks who
>perform the task with a hacksaw.
None of the pages I googled said the primary purpose of shortening the
barrel was for concealment. In all cases the first descriptive phrase
discusses the wider spread of the shot as a result of shortening the
barrel and/or removing the choke:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawed-off_shotgun>
<http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/sawed-off_shotgun>
"the weapon has larger spread and limited range"
<http://www.paleface.net/sawed.html>
"Also, because the buckshot spreads so wide out of the shorter barrels
it's easier to hit people than with any other weapon."
<http://www.audioasylum.com/members/mgeneral/messages/58973.html>
"The Effect of a “Sawed-off Shotgun” Allows a Wider Dispersion Pattern
but at a Lower Velocity, (the shorter barrel promotes discharge of
unburned gunpowder and gas from the contained environment out into the
air). “Close Range Weapon”."
etc.
>TM "That'll teach you not to Google." Oliver
You might want to contact all those sites and tell them that they've
got it wrong then.
jc
PC Paul
>
>>TM "That'll teach you not to Google." Oliver
>
> You might want to contact all those sites and tell them that they've
> got it wrong then.
>
Come on, this is AFU. You should know by now that just because lots of
websites repeat something doesn't make it right!
Having said that, I must admit I always thought short barrels = wider
spread, partly as a parallel to pistols (short barrels) being less accurate
than rifles (long barrels).
I suppose I always imagined the shot bouncing round in the barrel and being
'rounded up and moved on out', so shorter barrels meant more chance for
errant shots to stay errant.
Sounds wrong now I think of it though... If they did that surely the worst
of them would just fall out of the end of the barrel, or not even get that
far.
PC "and what about optical collimators, eh?" Paul
JC Dill
>"JC Dill" <jcd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:61sqc19tj9m5om1g4...@4ax.com...
>>
>>>TM "That'll teach you not to Google." Oliver
>>
>> You might want to contact all those sites and tell them that they've
>> got it wrong then.
>>
>
>Come on, this is AFU. You should know by now that just because lots of
>websites repeat something doesn't make it right!
Good point. There are all those websites saying livestock "need
salt", and they might not be right either. But I'm not sneering at
people who have found those sites and telling them that they are wrong
because they have "learned" what the sites have told them. So if TM
Oliver is right and all those sites are wrong, it would be nice if TMO
would be polite about correcting the error, and it would be nice if
he'd contact those sites and help *them* correct that error too.
>Having said that, I must admit I always thought short barrels = wider
>spread, partly as a parallel to pistols (short barrels) being less accurate
>than rifles (long barrels).
Exactly my thinking as well.
>I suppose I always imagined the shot bouncing round in the barrel and being
>'rounded up and moved on out', so shorter barrels meant more chance for
>errant shots to stay errant.
>
>Sounds wrong now I think of it though... If they did that surely the worst
>of them would just fall out of the end of the barrel, or not even get that
>far.
There's also that explosion going on at the other end of the barrel.
Perhaps the explosion *together* with the length of the barrel serves
to get the shot lined up and going in the same direction, and the
longer the barrel the more the shots line up. I wonder if TMO can
elaborate on how the length of the barrel *alone* (leaving off the
choke in both models) affects shot pattern.
jc
Gerald Clough
> None of the pages I googled said the primary purpose of shortening the
> barrel was for concealment. In all cases the first descriptive phrase
> discusses the wider spread of the shot as a result of shortening the
> barrel and/or removing the choke:
I think we're dealing with the effects of different mentalities and
purposes in different periods. But, for criminal uses, the primary
attraction of a very short shotgun is that it just looks BAD. It give
those on the business end the impression that there's no avoiding being
hit, and of course, it IS a shotgun, which is imagined to be impressive.
You really don't run into too many on the street. They're still large
and heavy, compared to a pistol that can be had with a high capacity
magazine and in a concealable size. And being caught with a shrot-barrel
shotgun is likely to be a felony, while a common pistol merits only a
misdemeanor. (Varies with state.) Extremely short shotguns are something
more likely to be discovered during a home search than being carried.
Ralph Jones
Agreed, because the two have different regulatory significance. A
shotgun with a barrel under 18 inches long is in the same class as a
machine gun (which is to say, you can own one only if you jump through
some rather high hoops), but the stock can be as short as you like as
long as the weapon is at least 26 inches long overall. So you can buy
a short-stocked shotgun, but the only way to get a short-barreled one
without getting on a list at the police department is to use Mr.
Hacksaw.
rj
Ralph Jones
[snip]
>
>>I suppose I always imagined the shot bouncing round in the barrel and being
>>'rounded up and moved on out', so shorter barrels meant more chance for
>>errant shots to stay errant.
>>
>>Sounds wrong now I think of it though... If they did that surely the worst
>>of them would just fall out of the end of the barrel, or not even get that
>>far.
>
>There's also that explosion going on at the other end of the barrel.
>Perhaps the explosion *together* with the length of the barrel serves
>to get the shot lined up and going in the same direction, and the
>longer the barrel the more the shots line up. I wonder if TMO can
>elaborate on how the length of the barrel *alone* (leaving off the
>choke in both models) affects shot pattern.
Overall length also affects maneuverability. A shotgun is the easiest
weapon to hit someone with at short range, but if you're expecting him
to appear at THIS end of the hallway and he pops up at THAT end, you
will spend some time getting it turned around -- and if you have the
amount of combat experience most people have, you may very well slam
it into the wall and drop it. A handgun is trivial to maneuver, but
requires considerably more shooting skill (and is also more likely to
put a round through the wall into the neighbors' apartment). A short
shotgun makes an attractive compromise.
There is a class of shotguns optimized for this role, called
"bullpups." They have a barrel that begins 8 inches from the buttplate
and a pistol grip at about the midpoint, just meeting both the minimum
barrel length of 18 inches and the minimum overall length of 26
inches.
rj
TOliver
Because they are addressing the logical process, not the intention of the
criminal mind.....
Here's a simple tip which will probably not change your mind, so obviously
blinded by the cursory sort of research provided by googling.
Shotguns sold in the US come with (almost without exception, except for
Rossi and Baikal "Coach" guns), come with a few 24", many 26" and 28" and a
handful of 30" guns. I can "remove" the choke and spread the pattern on any
of them by cutting off 2-3" of barrel (where the "choke" is).
Why cut off down to 18" or less? It does spread the pattern, to the point
that the weapon no longer delivers a "killing" pattern beyond point blank
range. In a 12' or 15" barrel, the shot pattern spreads quickly to several
feet wide, and using "00", the most common man killer. there's no guarantee
that even a single buckshot will strike a vital point in the body.
Therefore, the intent stated in your googling is not only not accomplished,
performance is diminished to the point of being ineffective.
Folks cut down shotguns to make them handy and easy to handle, easy to store
under a car seat and more easily concealable. Believe it or not, rely of
googleitis, or better yet, inquire of folks over on rec.guns where they
spend hours rehashing intricacies of barrel shortening and its alterations
of ballistics, point of aim, and shot pattern.
If you choose to remain ill-educated, that is I suppose your prerogative, as
stone headed as the great faces of Rushmore...
TM"Many afu years of ministering to the vastly unwashed, unchurched and
undone." Oliver
TOliver
"Ralph Jones" <ralp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:52mrc1hddjlcsrj0b...@4ax.com...
>>
>>There's also that explosion going on at the other end of the barrel.
>>Perhaps the explosion *together* with the length of the barrel serves
>>to get the shot lined up and going in the same direction, and the
>>longer the barrel the more the shots line up. I wonder if TMO can
>>elaborate on how the length of the barrel *alone* (leaving off the
>>choke in both models) affects shot pattern.
>
Were there no barrel at all, an experiment easily performed at home with a
vise, a hammer, a nail and a shotgun shell (but not recommended for
children, the wise or anyone for that matter other than JCDill who, if he
believes I was less than courteously affectionate to him in my first post,
will soon realize that my real ire is far more ancestry and appearance
significant).
1. Put shotgun shell, crimped wad pointed down range, brass base aft, in
vise and tighten. 2. Stand well behind, wearing earplugs and safety
glasses. 3. Place point of nail against primer (the li'l round padoodle in
the middle of the shell's brass base). 4. Whack head of nail with hammer.
Large bang ensues. Wad flies out. Shot departs the shell in conical form,
the immediate cone as much as 45 degrees wide. Within 10' the little BBs,
slowing raidly since the pressure containment provided by the wad, barrel
and breech is absent, may still penetrate paper but not well.
The barrel serves to contain the shot between the gas proof or near gas
proof breech and the partial seal provided by its own mass providing a venue
in which it can accelerate from zero to hundreds of feet per second in the
length of the barrel. Shotgun shells are loaded with a propellant designed
to function effectively in a barrel at least 24" long (and better in a 30"
barrel). In a short barrel, the load does not approach its maximum velocity
capability.
It is possible to load shotgun shells with pistol propellant to achieve
quicker "burn rate" and acceleration. However, handloading is not a field
for nuggets, novices and newbies, since a handloader does hoist himself upon
his own petard.
TM "Get the load wrong and you'll have the bolt in your eye, deeply." Oliver
Lots42
Surfbus wrote:
> The July issue of the UK magazine 'Fortean Times' (www.forteantimes.com)
> includes the following tale on P6:
>
> "A thief burst into a Florida bank waving a gun and screamed 'freeze
> mother-stickers, this is a fuck-up!' The staff dissolved into hysterics and
> the would-be robber fled in humiliation."
>
> Source: The Week, 18 May 2002
My favorite part: the tale usually ends with the bank putting the
robber's words up on a sign.
As if any bank would display 'Fuck' so proudly.
Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)
wrote:
> In a 12' or 15" barrel, the shot pattern spreads quickly to several
> feet wide, and using "00", the most common man killer. there's no guarantee
> that even a single buckshot will strike a vital point in the body.
If you have a 12-foot barrel, you hardly need to worry about the shot
pattern; if you can maneuver a shotgun that long, you're probably
Superman.
Mary "yeah, I know it's a typo, but it caught my eye"
--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer
We didn't just do weird stuff at Dryden, we wrote reports about it.
reunite....@gmail.com or mil...@qnet.com
JC Dill
JC Dill
wrote:
>Folks cut down shotguns to make them handy and easy to handle, easy to store
>under a car seat and more easily concealable. Believe it or not, rely of
>googleitis, or better yet, inquire of folks over on rec.guns where they
>spend hours rehashing intricacies of barrel shortening and its alterations
>of ballistics, point of aim, and shot pattern.
Are you claiming that the active posters on rec.guns are truly
representative of all the gun owners who cut down shotguns? It would
seem to me that the rec.gun posters would be a specific subset and
would not be indicative of the gun-owning (or shotgun shortening)
population at large.
jc
Nick Spalding
on Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:30:45 -0700:
> On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 02:26:09 GMT, "TOliver" <tolive...@Hot.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> > In a 12' or 15" barrel, the shot pattern spreads quickly to several
> > feet wide, and using "00", the most common man killer. there's no guarantee
> > that even a single buckshot will strike a vital point in the body.
>
> If you have a 12-foot barrel, you hardly need to worry about the shot
> pattern; if you can maneuver a shotgun that long, you're probably
> Superman.
Not quite 12' but a punt gun can be over 8'. From <http://www.wildfowling.com/puntgun.htm>
Punt-guns are built using the same standard formula as for smaller shotguns, namely that a minimum
of 6 lb of ordnance is required to deliver one ounce of shot. The following table quoted from The
Complete Wildfowler Ashore and Afloat by Stanley Duncan and Guy Thorne provides a very useful guide
to dimensions and loads, although variations of these standards undoubtedly work well. By law[1] a
punt-gun is limited to a maximum of 1.75in. diameter internal bore measurement, with most punt-guns
in use today being considerably smaller in size.
Size of Bore Weight Length of barrel Shot Black powder
1 to 1 1/4 in. 50 to 75 lb 6ft 8in. to 7ft 6in. 8 to 12 oz 1.5 to 2.5 oz
1 3/8 to 1 1/2 in. 80 to 120 lb 7ft 9in. to 8ft 0in. 16 to 20 oz 3 to 3.75 oz
1 5/8 to 1 3/4 in. 130 to 150 lb 8ft 0in. to 8ft 6in 22 to 28 oz 4 to 4.75 oz
[1] Whether this is UK or US law I don't know.
--
Nick Spalding
TOliver
surprised. Though not as substantially or as broadly educated, academically
or through experience as the cadre who hang out at the afu saloon, they
comprise a group of diverse inteste and contacts with firearms, a hell of a
lot of law enforcmennt types, the usual band of active, reserve and
ex-military, a howling mad colection of extremists forted up on distant
mountaintops, caustic leftish commentators, gun dealers (used, new and
antique), etc..
A few of them are likely to greet you with catcalls and guffaws for your
dependence on googling when vast numbers of authoritative and
self-proclaimed experts are available, but I commend you to the voyage.
There's a whole world out there which your life so far has apparently
prevented you from coming into contact with.
You might be amazed at what you'd learn about sawed off shotguns, salt
licks, and how outrageously simple-minded has been your display of capacity
to date...
TM "Can't decide whether it's your personality or your stupidity which
serves you least well." Oliver
Derek Lyons
>> If you have a 12-foot barrel, you hardly need to worry about the shot
>> pattern; if you can maneuver a shotgun that long, you're probably
>> Superman.
>
>Not quite 12' but a punt gun can be over 8'.
However, a punt gun is not man handled.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 02:26:09 GMT, "TOliver" <tolive...@Hot.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>>In a 12' or 15" barrel, the shot pattern spreads quickly to several
>>feet wide, and using "00", the most common man killer. there's no guarantee
>>that even a single buckshot will strike a vital point in the body.
>
> If you have a 12-foot barrel, you hardly need to worry about the shot
> pattern; if you can maneuver a shotgun that long, you're probably
> Superman.
Saw a rifle with an 8-foot barrel on the wall of the Mason
Hotel, Claremore, Oklahoma, back around 1950.
Charles
ron saarna
"Charles Wm. Dimmick" <cdim...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:44Eze.1212$V96...@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
Try as I might, I can't imagine how sawing an 8-foot barrel could possibly
produce a 12-foot barrel. To do it in 1950 would require a Superman that
could travel back in time. Your instructions make no sense.
Ron "Freeze josters, this is a poke" Saarna
Hatunen
My favorite part is that I heard this joke at work in 1958.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Lon
> JC Dill wrote:
>
>> None of the pages I googled said the primary purpose of shortening the
>> barrel was for concealment. In all cases the first descriptive phrase
>> discusses the wider spread of the shot as a result of shortening the
>> barrel and/or removing the choke:
>
>
> I think we're dealing with the effects of different mentalities and
> purposes in different periods. But, for criminal uses, the primary
> attraction of a very short shotgun is that it just looks BAD. It give
> those on the business end the impression that there's no avoiding being
> hit, and of course, it IS a shotgun, which is imagined to be impressive.
There is something beyond that... At sufficiently close range, a
shotgun will put a much bigger hole in an object than anything
smaller than a recoilless rifle, bazooka, chainsaw, etc. It
is not at all difficult to survive a reasonably close range pistol
bullet from your typical pistol packing foe unless a really vital
spot is hit or they are using a Thompson Contender, a big magnum with
dum dums, etc. On the other hand, having a hole put in you that a
campbell soup can would fit thru tends to be just a bit more serious,
as does having the terrain surrounding that hole being turned into
hamburger. The short barrel does cost velocity, which isn't really
that big of a deal for distances of 20 feet or so, but it gains
lack of choke which makes marginal marksmanship less of a contribution
to criminal lack of longevity.
>
> You really don't run into too many on the street. They're still large
> and heavy, compared to a pistol that can be had with a high capacity
> magazine and in a concealable size. And being caught with a shrot-barrel
> shotgun is likely to be a felony, while a common pistol merits only a
> misdemeanor. (Varies with state.) Extremely short shotguns are something
> more likely to be discovered during a home search than being carried.
Depending upon one's occupation of course, but I would guess that they
are becoming vanishingly rare with the Uzi and such being the
preferred close quarter weapon of choice as long as one is in the
process of a felony by simple possession of either...
Lon
> On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 02:26:09 GMT, "TOliver" <tolive...@Hot.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>In a 12' or 15" barrel, the shot pattern spreads quickly to several
>>feet wide, and using "00", the most common man killer. there's no guarantee
>>that even a single buckshot will strike a vital point in the body.
>
>
> If you have a 12-foot barrel, you hardly need to worry about the shot
> pattern; if you can maneuver a shotgun that long, you're probably
> Superman.
>
> Mary "yeah, I know it's a typo, but it caught my eye"
>
Get a room, you two.
R H Draney
>
>On 8 Jul 2005 08:44:12 -0700, "Lots42" <lot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Surfbus wrote:
>>>
>>> "A thief burst into a Florida bank waving a gun and screamed 'freeze
>>> mother-stickers, this is a fuck-up!' The staff dissolved into hysterics and
>>> the would-be robber fled in humiliation."
>>
>>robber's words up on a sign.
>
That makes sense...that would have been back when you had to actually go *to*
the bank to rob it....r
Burroughs Guy
> Googling, I learned that the barrel is sawed off so that the shot will
> spray in a wider pattern. Apparently this makes the gun more
> effective at hitting your quarry in close quarters because you don't
> have to be especially accurate with your aim to inflict damage on your
> target. The stock may optionally also be sawed off to make the gun
> smaller, easier to hide and/or shoot with one hand. Sawing the stock
> alone doesn't make it a "sawed off shotgun" while sawing the barrel
> alone does.
Merci. I remember seeing a series of pictures showing how a shotgun
is sawed off. They shortened both ends, and talked about
concealability. I can see that sawing off just the barrel gives you a
weapon that's easier to control, though I don't know how important it
is to control a weapon you can't aim.
--
Burroughs Guy
Vaguer memories available upon request
Gerald Clough
> Gerald Clough proclaimed:
>> You really don't run into too many on the street. They're still large
>> and heavy, compared to a pistol that can be had with a high capacity
>> magazine and in a concealable size. And being caught with a
>> shrot-barrel shotgun is likely to be a felony, while a common pistol
>> merits only a misdemeanor. (Varies with state.) Extremely short
>> shotguns are something more likely to be discovered during a home
>> search than being carried.
>
>
> Depending upon one's occupation of course, but I would guess that they
> are becoming vanishingly rare with the Uzi and such being the
> preferred close quarter weapon of choice as long as one is in the
> process of a felony by simple possession of either...
Dispite the movies, where everyone has the biggest and baddest armament,
most crooks who have anything to shoot with have trashy guns. It's
usually Raven .25's and other cheap pistols or a ragged old single-shot
shotgun or a horrid little .22 pot metal revolver with a steel barrel
sleave to keep it from blowing up. Relatively few have the wherewithall
to invest in quality firearms. For one thing, they're arrested fairly
often and lose whatever they have. And if they ever have enough money to
buy something nice, they spend it on something else, or if they steal
one, they sell it. You find a fair number of such things as 9mm
semiautomatic lookalikes to the Mac-10 SMG, but they're mostly junk.
When I checked the last one I picked up, the cocking stub broke off the
bolt the first time I worked the action. Took a cheap .25 off a guy
once, and whole thing fell to pieces while handling it. The guy we got
about four months ago who went on a robbery spree across the state used
an old .38 revolver that you had to handle carefully, lest the cylinder
fall out, which it in fact did during one of his robberies. He could
well afford to buy better (at least after a couple of stick-ups), but he
said it didn't matter, since he had no intention of firing it. (It
would, however, fire, as ATF demonstrated in the process of hanging
their charge of using a firearm in a felony on him.)
That's not to say that there aren't plenty of quality arms being used in
crimes, but it seems mostly to be the crooks who have a serious need to
protect themselves from other crooks who bother to carry good guns.
Karen J. Cravens
news:LhGze.12547$Ud.13...@news20.bellglobal.com:
> Try as I might, I can't imagine how sawing an 8-foot barrel could
> possibly produce a 12-foot barrel. To do it in 1950 would require a
> Superman that could travel back in time. Your instructions make no
> sense.
Why, saw it lengthwise, of course.
--
Karen J. Cravens
ron saarna
"Karen J. Cravens" <silve...@phoenyx.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9690821C...@207.106.92.151...
But that just gets you a 16-foot trough. Those shots are really going to
scatter.
Ron "half-empty" Saarna
(Why does this have to be done in 1950? Can we not do it today?)
Karen J. Cravens
> But that just gets you a 16-foot trough. Those shots are really going to
> scatter.
And you send it to Switzerland so they can drill a new bore in it.
Sheesh.
--
Karen J. Cravens
John Francis
ron saarna <dukiesp...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>"Karen J. Cravens" <silve...@phoenyx.net> wrote in message
>news:Xns9690821C...@207.106.92.151...
>> begin "ron saarna" <dukiesp...@sympatico.ca> quotation from
>> news:LhGze.12547$Ud.13...@news20.bellglobal.com:
>>
>> > Try as I might, I can't imagine how sawing an 8-foot barrel could
>> > possibly produce a 12-foot barrel. To do it in 1950 would require a
>> > Superman that could travel back in time. Your instructions make no
>> > sense.
>>
>> Why, saw it lengthwise, of course.
>
>But that just gets you a 16-foot trough. Those shots are really going to
>scatter.
>
Make a helical cut and you end up with two barrels which might
contain the shot, but which wouldn't prevent the propellant
gases from escaping.
ron saarna
Sheesh if you want, but the Swiss also have to cut another 4 feet to get our
required length. Let's put them to that test! Granted they could bore the
metal in the 40's*, but this would seem prohibitive to those rebels without
money robbing banks, what with the overseas mailing costs involved for their
first robbery.
As for the drilling part, while the Swiss still possess this technological
advantage* and were willing to show it off, a round of store-bought shot
certainly wouldn't pass through the newly bored barrel. Now we are talking
about custom-made micrometer shot. Nevermind re-positioning of the new
"barrel" to the trough's hole, which would cost a small fortune (although I
haven't admittedly checked on the specifics).
I mean, you are just acting silly.
Keith Richards is here in Toronto right now if you want to catch him in a
blood-transfusion as they prepare for their next concert tour. I know all
the local hospitals.
Ron "Sympathy For the Straw-man" Saarna
* http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/wire.asp
ron saarna
"John Francis" <jo...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:db8sj5$ef9$1...@reader2.panix.com...
I am imagining a helical cut that removes one third of the total length.
Improves the probability of misfired shots for the first 2/3rds. Not bad,
but it seems that the last 1/3 of the barrel as it is made of thin helixes
makes it even worse.
Ron "brain is spinning" Saarna
Karen J. Cravens
> I mean, you are just acting silly.
Sorry, I thought that was obvious from the get-go.
--
Karen J. Cravens
ron saarna
> begin "ron saarna" <dukiesp...@sympatico.ca> quotation from
> news:YuXBe.15382$qg1.1...@news20.bellglobal.com:
>
> > I mean, you are just acting silly.
>
> Sorry, I thought that was obvious from the get-go.
This is just no fun if you're not going to play around with your hypothesis.
You were quite willing to present a case as amusement. I thought it was
obvious my intent in the resonse too, but we've lost a couple of words or so
in the snipping.
Ron "sigh" Saarna
P.S. You are still wrong about cutting the barrel lengthwise to get 12 feet.
Karen J. Cravens
> P.S. You are still wrong about cutting the barrel lengthwise to get 12
> feet.
Well, when you've got sixteen feet, you've got twelve. And thirteen, and
eleven, and so on.
Plus, nobody said the drilled hole had to start and end at the ends, so
nyeah.
--
Karen J. Cravens
ron saarna
> begin "ron saarna" <dukiesp...@sympatico.ca> quotation from
> news:n9gCe.42609$6e3.9...@news20.bellglobal.com:
>
> > P.S. You are still wrong about cutting the barrel lengthwise to get 12
> > feet.
>
> Well, when you've got sixteen feet, you've got twelve. And thirteen, and
> eleven, and so on.
Touche.
> Plus, nobody said the drilled hole had to start and end at the ends, so
> nyeah.
OK, but try hiding that one in your overcoat.
Ron Saarna