New vectors for Rosie spotted
Lizz Holmans
Having received Peter Ackroyd's highly acclaimed -London, A Biography'
for Christmas, I was enjoying it thoroughly until...guess what showed
up? The plague and the roses chant. Left me disenchanted
Also had to take an American visitor to Madame Tussaud's, where on
their new train ride exhibit that purports to be a history of London,
the plague part of the show has anamatronic figures of children
chanting about those damn roses again.
Lizz 'It wasn't a good year' Holmans
Donna Richoux
Which reminds me, last year I bought a paperback of the 1962 book _The
Plague and the Fire_ because it may be the *first* vector of the Rosie
legend, and I wanted to see exactly what it said. I do not believe this
actual excerpt appears on any of the Ring/Rosie pages. I'm afraid it's
not very illuminating, and Leasor does not do footnotes, although he
does list an impressive "Selective Bibliography" at the end of the book.
[BEGIN QUOTE]
[Chapter] 7 - Bring Out Your Dead
Ring a-ring a-Roses
A pocketful of poesies,
'Tishoo, 'tishoo,
We all fall down!
Few people watching a group of children dancing
hand-in-hand in a circle to this well-known nursery
rhyme may realize that it has its origin in the
Plague. Roses refer to the rosy rash of plague,
ringed to signify the tokens [blisters, buboes, and
carbuncles]; the poesies were herbs and spices
carried to sweeten the air; sneezing was a common
symptom of those close to death. The words 'we all
fall down' certainly referred to Londoners during
that stifling August. Death rates rose so sharply
that they became unable to comprehend the magnitude
of the disaster.
[END QUOTE]
My impression from this brief, matter-of-fact reporting that this writer
*got* this from somewhere; this is not told in the manner of someone who
has pieced it together himself. Leasor is a general writer of fiction
and nonfiction, not a historian or folklorist. It would be most
interesting if anyone can locate any version of this told before 1962.
Philip Hiscock wrote in the article that I think is in the AFU archive:
In fact the earliest reference that I know of to this
interpretation of the rhyme is James Leasor's _The Plague and The
Fire_ (McGraw-Hill, 1961). I have no idea whether Leasor invented
the idea, but it was during the 1960s that popular culture spread
the interpretation all over North America. Is Leasor still alive?
Can we ask him where he got the idea?
I found this biography at
ULTIMATE MYSTERY/DETECTIVE WEB GUIDE
http://www.magicdragon.com/UltimateMystery/authorsL.html
[Thomas] James Leasor [20 Dec 1923-] British; born in Erith,
Kent; City of London School; B.A. (honours) 1948 Oriel College,
Oxford (Editor "Isis"); M.A. 1952 Oriel College, Oxford; Royal
Berkshore Regiment in Burma, India, Malaya to rank of Captain; 1951
married Joan M. Bevan, 3 sons; reporter for "Kentish Times", London
"Daily Express"; Editoiral Advisor/Consultant 1955-69 George Newnes
and C. Arthur Pearson, Ltd., London; Director 1970-73 Elm Tree
Books, London; Member 1964- Lloyds of London; Director 1959- Pagoda
Films Ltd.; Directror 1964- Jason Love Ltd.; Member, Order of
St.John of Jerusalem; Fellow, Royal Society of Arts; no known Web
page; influenced by John Buchan
* 11 mystery/detective/espionage novels with series character
Dr. Jason Love (owner, Aristo Autos)
* 1 mystery/detective story collection with
series character Dr. Jason Love
* 7 miscellaneous novels
* 1 play
* 1 screenplay
* 16 miscellaneous books (writing, biography,
military, history)
Someone born in 1923 could still be around today, but somehow I doubt
he'll remember which book he got the idea from (and the odds are against
him saying that he invented it out of whole cloth). Might still be worth
a letter, though...
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
Susan Carroll-Clark
"Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1et1g7a.awqmmxng2erkN%tr...@euronet.nl...
> Lizz Holmans <di...@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Having received Peter Ackroyd's highly acclaimed -London, A Biography'
> > for Christmas, I was enjoying it thoroughly until...guess what showed
> > up? The plague and the roses chant. Left me disenchanted
I suppose there's no cite...Interestingly enough, a friend showed me a 17th
century compilation of all kinds of household knowledge, including several
charms against the plague. Talk about the perfect place to find mention of
the rhyme if it was actually contemporary (or even mention of "posies." No
such luck...
> Someone born in 1923 could still be around today, but somehow I doubt
> he'll remember which book he got the idea from (and the odds are against
> him saying that he invented it out of whole cloth). Might still be worth
> a letter, though...
I have been conducting an informal poll on where various people (especially
older ones) first read/heard the purported connection, and can trace it back
at least to the 1920s, maybe even earlier. It seems to have originated in
Britain, where medieval/early modern history is a more serious part of the
history curriculum in the early grades than it is for leftpondians. I have
a theory or two about why it might have become popular about that time (e.g.
possible connection between influenza epidemic of 1917 and "plague") but
probably can't prove 'em.
Susan "proof schmoof" Carroll-Clark
Maggie Newman
>
>Someone born in 1923 could still be around today, but somehow I doubt
>he'll remember which book he got the idea from (and the odds are against
>him saying that he invented it out of whole cloth). Might still be worth
>a letter, though...
My father was born in 1922 and he's certainly still around today, and
in reasonably good health at that. It surprised the hell out of me to
learn that Jack Kerouac was also born in 1922, the same year as my
father and yet he couldn't have been less like someone of the generation
I think of as my parents' (or is that parent's) generation, but part of
the new or beat generation. Yes, I know today is Wednesday May 9th
goddammit, and no one feels more foolish than I, I mean for crying out
loud, it was my idea in the first place and here I am caught with my
metaphorical pants down, no post from me on Casaday, and why, it all
started when I was hacked, yes, hacked I tell you, by some youthful (I
assume, since all things thoughtless and harmful derive from youth, or
so it seems to me now, just the opposite 30 years go) vandals who took
down my pathetic little web server and scribbled "FUCK THE U.S. GOVERNMENT"
in the place where formerly I had the Spring workshop schedule. I am not
making this up, all this actually happened. So the Security Forces told
me they had no choice but to "pave my box" for my own protection, a pretty
funnny way of phrasing it if you ask me, but who am I to question the
wisdom of the computer services security people. There I am with no
computer to speak of, so I go home and try to telnet and would you believe
the main server was down all last night and only just became available
about an hour ago. Talk about your fuckinISP! If you can't trust the
Harvard of the Midwest to supply you with a reliable internet connection
who the hell can you trust? Anyway I'm happy to see the outpouring of
prose in honor of Casady's 54th and I wish each and every one of you a
bang on the ear and to Richard many happy returns.
Maggie
Paul Tomblin
>so it seems to me now, just the opposite 30 years go) vandals who took
>down my pathetic little web server and scribbled "FUCK THE U.S. GOVERNMENT"
That's what you get for running IIS without installing the patches from
last October!
--
Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com>, not speaking for anybody
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they
start making vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge
R H Draney
news:c%dK6.13$C4.610@uchinews...
>
> ...it all
> started when I was hacked, yes, hacked I tell you, by some youthful (I
> assume, since all things thoughtless and harmful derive from youth, or
> so it seems to me now, just the opposite 30 years go)
R H "we are the parents our people warned us about" Draney
Casady
Everyone has been all too kind. I have always tried to provide
something that at least _someone_ might like. I have always been
aware that the kind of stuff I mostly write is a matter of taste.
Maybe it's the name. I use my own and so has pretty much everyone
who has taken an interest. Maybe I seem all too real, and with the
flood of the other.... I guess you can sort of spam a group with a
flood of stuff, if you
piece it out. I mostly post my own stuff, and and I have to type
it in. I pay for my sins as I commit them. This is not all that
easy, it is charity to think I know how to type, although I am
getting better at it. Thank you. Thanks to everyone.
Casady