Re: Starving people refuse to eat food aid
Dorothy J Heydt
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>On 19 Nov 2009 14:49:43 -0800, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>
>wrote:
>
>>>[1]Whatever that actually means, as if there's one British accent to
>>>rule them all... And in the same time people experienced with working
>>>with Central Europeans pick up that I'm Polish quite well when I'm
>>>speaking Globish...
>>
>>True story, American woman gushing: "ooh, I just think Michael Caine sounds so
>>proper and dignified with that British accent of his!"
>
>I hope you realize that lots of Americans won't see why that's funny.
Well, I don't get it right off, but I'll make a hypothesis that
maybe his accent isn't British?
So what is it?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
cryptoguy
> In article <oejbg5tm1153fsaa79qega1qgahlobo...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>
> >On 19 Nov 2009 14:49:43 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net>
> >wrote:
>
> >>>[1]Whatever that actually means, as if there's one British accent to
> >>>rule them all... And in the same time people experienced with working
> >>>with Central Europeans pick up that I'm Polish quite well when I'm
> >>>speaking Globish...
>
> >>True story, American woman gushing: "ooh, I just think Michael Caine sounds so
> >>proper and dignified with that British accent of his!"
>
> >I hope you realize that lots of Americans won't see why that's funny.
>
> Well, I don't get it right off, but I'll make a hypothesis that
> maybe his accent isn't British?
>
> So what is it?
It's British, but its Cockney; a very working-class London accent. In
Britain, accent is tied not only to location, but also to social
class. As another poster said, its a bit like saying Danny DeVito has
a classy accent.
pt
Mike Schilling
I used to work at a place where about 70% of the staff was English.
There was a large collection of different accents:
* One manager had an Oxford drawl so exaggerated that it was almost a
speech impediment
* A few folks had less extreme version of the educated accent. One
sounded almost like John Cleese being an obnoxious headmaster.
* One fellow was very Yorkshire (think John Alderton)
* One very pretty woman was an extreme Cockney. (Her husband was one
of the very educated-sounding folks.)
* Most of the rest sounded middle-class and not obviously regional,
though there were a few Scots as well.
The odd thing, to me, is that there were no obvious class distinctions
based on any of this. People were deferred to based on rank and
perceived ability, and that was orthogonal to their accent.
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
wrote:
> I used to work at a place where about 70% of the staff was English.
> There was a large collection of different accents:
>
> * One manager had an Oxford drawl so exaggerated that it was almost a
> speech impediment
> * A few folks had less extreme version of the educated accent. One
> sounded almost like John Cleese being an obnoxious headmaster.
> * One fellow was very Yorkshire (think John Alderton)
> * One very pretty woman was an extreme Cockney. (Her husband was one
> of the very educated-sounding folks.)
> * Most of the rest sounded middle-class and not obviously regional,
> though there were a few Scots as well.
>
> The odd thing, to me, is that there were no obvious class distinctions
> based on any of this. People were deferred to based on rank and
> perceived ability, and that was orthogonal to their accent.
That's interesting, because it implies that two other effects weren't
in operation, besides the most obvious one. (Which is that you can
instantly despise someone on account of their accent, but be persuaded
later of their worth. Then again, you may have been right the first
time.)
I have in mind unequal access to, or use of, various levels of
education depending on, we may as well say, class, and also the
changing of one's own accent to suit one's environs - or one's goals
(express for the job you want, not the job you have??)
cryptoguy
orig...@moderators.isc.org <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
> On Nov 25, 5:23 am, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I used to work at a place where about 70% of the staff was English.
> > There was a large collection of different accents:
>
> > * One manager had an Oxford drawl so exaggerated that it was almost a
> > speech impediment
> > * A few folks had less extreme version of the educated accent. One
> > sounded almost like John Cleese being an obnoxious headmaster.
> > * One fellow was very Yorkshire (think John Alderton)
> > * One very pretty woman was an extreme Cockney. (Her husband was one
> > of the very educated-sounding folks.)
> > * Most of the rest sounded middle-class and not obviously regional,
> > though there were a few Scots as well.
>
> > The odd thing, to me, is that there were no obvious class distinctions
> > based on any of this. People were deferred to based on rank and
> > perceived ability, and that was orthogonal to their accent.
>
> That's interesting, because it implies that two other effects weren't
> in operation, besides the most obvious one. (Which is that you can
> instantly despise someone on account of their accent, but be persuaded
> later of their worth. Then again, you may have been right the first
> time.)
Like most people, I have to fight against First Impressions I get of
people based on superficial factors such as appearance and accent.
While those can provide a very handy, and very fast assessment, they
are often far, far off the mark.
> I have in mind unequal access to, or use of, various levels of
> education depending on, we may as well say, class, and also the
> changing of one's own accent to suit one's environs - or one's goals
> (express for the job you want, not the job you have??)
(Warning: Stereotypes follow)
'Changing ones accent' is/was regarded by many Brits as a sneaky,
underhanded form of behaviour. Those you leave will regard you as a
class traitor (reff US terms 'oreo', 'apple', 'banana', in an ethnic
context). Those you emulate will regard you as, at best, an arriviste.
pt
Dorothy J Heydt
Robert MacNeil's TV series _The Story of English_ had one segment
on the British "RP" accent, and how boys attending posh schools,
if they didn't have that accent when they went to school, soon
picked it up. He intervewed two boys of maybe twelve or thirteen
who described how they'd picked up the accent, because it was
expected of them.
Cheryl
> Robert MacNeil's TV series _The Story of English_ had one segment
> on the British "RP" accent, and how boys attending posh schools,
> if they didn't have that accent when they went to school, soon
> picked it up. He intervewed two boys of maybe twelve or thirteen
> who described how they'd picked up the accent, because it was
> expected of them.
>
Children pick up accents easily, but there could have been some effort
or pressure involved. I know someone who spent some time in a school in
Kenya (presumably British-English influenced) in which she was not
allowed to sing in the school choir until her terrible Canadian accent
improved.
--
Cheryl
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> Robert MacNeil's TV series _The Story of English_ had one segment
>> on the British "RP" accent, and how boys attending posh schools,
>> if they didn't have that accent when they went to school, soon
>> picked it up. He intervewed two boys of maybe twelve or thirteen
>> who described how they'd picked up the accent, because it was
>> expected of them.
>
>Children pick up accents easily...
Not all children; once again, I cite my brother-in-law who came to
America in 1956 at the age of eight, and unlike his brothers and
parents, still has a Hungarian accent fifty-three years later.
There's significant individual variation.
But most do, yeah.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm selling my comic collection -- see http://www.watt-evans.com/comics.html
I'm serializing a novel at http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight0.html
Hatunen
<l...@sff.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:17:34 -0330, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>
>>Children pick up accents easily...
>
>Not all children; once again, I cite my brother-in-law who came to
>America in 1956 at the age of eight, and unlike his brothers and
>parents, still has a Hungarian accent fifty-three years later.
>There's significant individual variation.
Some linguists, Stephen Pinker among them, I believe, say that it
is about eight years of age that a child's innate language
ability begins to fade and after that it becomes difficult to
lose one's native accent. I believe it's Pinker that points out
Henry Kissinger came to the USA a bit older than that and never
lost his accent, while his younger brother speaks English with no
discernible German accent.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
John Francis
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:17:34 -0330, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>
>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>> Robert MacNeil's TV series _The Story of English_ had one segment
>>> on the British "RP" accent, and how boys attending posh schools,
>>> if they didn't have that accent when they went to school, soon
>>> picked it up. He intervewed two boys of maybe twelve or thirteen
>>> who described how they'd picked up the accent, because it was
>>> expected of them.
>>
>>Children pick up accents easily...
>
>Not all children; once again, I cite my brother-in-law who came to
>America in 1956 at the age of eight, and unlike his brothers and
>parents, still has a Hungarian accent fifty-three years later.
>There's significant individual variation.
>
>But most do, yeah.
Indeed. And just as well, in many cases. British sensitivity to
accents is (or was) far more widespread than just being able to spot
RP (aka BBC English). For many a job-seeker by far the most important
impression was made by the first words out of your mouth at a job
interview.
My late mother, an English teacher by profession, spent much of her
life knocking the rough edges off the pronunciation of the local
South-East (or Sarf-East?) London dialect - not the most attractive-
sounding way of speaking. She also fought a (somewhat folorn) battle
against the increasing intrusion of Americanisms that the girls picked
up from imported television shows.
In this she was, as are most, a child of her age - she went to her
grave regretting the increasing number of regional dialects to be
heard in the voices of BBC newsreaders (and also the acceptance of
vulgarities into everyday speech, but that's a different story).
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:01:32 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans
><l...@sff.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:17:34 -0330, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>Children pick up accents easily...
>>
>>Not all children; once again, I cite my brother-in-law who came to
>>America in 1956 at the age of eight, and unlike his brothers and
>>parents, still has a Hungarian accent fifty-three years later.
>>There's significant individual variation.
>
>Some linguists, Stephen Pinker among them, I believe, say that it
>is about eight years of age that a child's innate language
>ability begins to fade and after that it becomes difficult to
>lose one's native accent. I believe it's Pinker that points out
>Henry Kissinger came to the USA a bit older than that and never
>lost his accent, while his younger brother speaks English with no
>discernible German accent.
Which, while it probably has some basis in fact, still doesn't account
for my brother-in-law's accentless parents and older brother.
Individual variation. Lots of it.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:20:42 -0700, Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:01:32 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans
>><l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:17:34 -0330, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Children pick up accents easily...
>>>
>>>Not all children; once again, I cite my brother-in-law who came to
>>>America in 1956 at the age of eight, and unlike his brothers and
>>>parents, still has a Hungarian accent fifty-three years later.
>>>There's significant individual variation.
>>
>>Some linguists, Stephen Pinker among them, I believe, say that it
>>is about eight years of age that a child's innate language
>>ability begins to fade and after that it becomes difficult to
>>lose one's native accent. I believe it's Pinker that points out
>>Henry Kissinger came to the USA a bit older than that and never
>>lost his accent, while his younger brother speaks English with no
>>discernible German accent.
>
>Which, while it probably has some basis in fact, still doesn't account
>for my brother-in-law's accentless parents and older brother.
"Accentless." Pfui. I know better than that. They have accents, but
they're upper-middle-class central New Jersey accents (think
Princeton), rather than Hungarian.
Howard Brazee
>Some linguists, Stephen Pinker among them, I believe, say that it
>is about eight years of age that a child's innate language
>ability begins to fade and after that it becomes difficult to
>lose one's native accent. I believe it's Pinker that points out
>Henry Kissinger came to the USA a bit older than that and never
>lost his accent, while his younger brother speaks English with no
>discernible German accent.
But look at all of those spy novels where some adult goes to school
for a couple of months to be able to speak that language like a
native!
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
David DeLaney
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>Which, while it probably has some basis in fact, still doesn't account
>>for my brother-in-law's accentless parents and older brother.
>
>"Accentless." Pfui. I know better than that. They have accents, but
>they're upper-middle-class central New Jersey accents (think
>Princeton), rather than Hungarian.
ObSomewhereNearSF: "I ... can ... tell ... that ... she ... was ... born -
HUNGARIAN!"
Dave "and not only that, of noble blood. She is - a princess!" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Ralph Jones
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:01:32 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans
><l...@sff.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:17:34 -0330, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>Children pick up accents easily...
>>
>>Not all children; once again, I cite my brother-in-law who came to
>>America in 1956 at the age of eight, and unlike his brothers and
>>parents, still has a Hungarian accent fifty-three years later.
>>There's significant individual variation.
>
>Some linguists, Stephen Pinker among them, I believe, say that it
>is about eight years of age that a child's innate language
>ability begins to fade and after that it becomes difficult to
>lose one's native accent. I believe it's Pinker that points out
>Henry Kissinger came to the USA a bit older than that and never
>lost his accent, while his younger brother speaks English with no
>discernible German accent.
Interesting short piece on NPR recently about a linguist who asserts
that the crying of infants reflects their parents' language. He found
a tendency of French babies to end a cry with an upward inflection
while German babies ended downward.
rj
Howard Brazee
Francis) wrote:
>In this she was, as are most, a child of her age - she went to her
>grave regretting the increasing number of regional dialects to be
>heard in the voices of BBC newsreaders (and also the acceptance of
>vulgarities into everyday speech, but that's a different story).
Which is interesting, as British dialects are actually decreasing as
the nation gets less isolated and media more widespread. Her upset
wasn't that they existed - it was that she heard them.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>
>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>> Robert MacNeil's TV series _The Story of English_ had one segment
>>> on the British "RP" accent, and how boys attending posh schools,
>>> if they didn't have that accent when they went to school, soon
>>> picked it up. He intervewed two boys of maybe twelve or thirteen
>>> who described how they'd picked up the accent, because it was
>>> expected of them.
>>
>>Children pick up accents easily...
>
>Not all children; once again, I cite my brother-in-law who came to
>America in 1956 at the age of eight, and unlike his brothers and
>parents, still has a Hungarian accent fifty-three years later.
>There's significant individual variation.
>
>But most do, yeah.
>
There's the famous (apocryphal?) story about Walter & Henry Kissinger.
Someone is talking to Walter who has a "normal" American accent
and expresses surprise at finding that, considering Henry's accent.
"Ah, but Henry never listens to anyone else", Walter explains..
Isn't there supposed to be a "Harvard" accent here in the States that is
picked up by a lot of students?
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Moriarty
<snip>
> Children pick up accents easily, but there could have been some effort
> or pressure involved. I know someone who spent some time in a school in
> Kenya (presumably British-English influenced) in which she was not
> allowed to sing in the school choir until her terrible Canadian accent
> improved.
Hah! Too true. Despite never having been to America, I still managed
to come back to Australia from 3 years in Indonesia in the 70s with an
American accent. And this was from going to an International School
[1], not an American one.
[1] Not the one Obama went to. I checked.
-Moriarty
Keith F. Lynch
> Despite never having been to America, I still managed to come back
> to Australia from 3 years in Indonesia in the 70s with an American
> accent. And this was from going to an International School [1], not
> an American one.
Not only did Ayn Rand never lose her Russian accent even after living
half a century in the US, some of her close associates who had never
been out of the US started speaking with a Russian accent.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Keith F. Lynch
> "Accentless." Pfui. I know better than that. They have accents,
> but they're upper-middle-class central New Jersey accents (think
> Princeton), rather than Hungarian.
Indeed. The only place where people speak with no accent at all is
here in Virginia. And only in the northeast part of Virginia.
Bill Snyder
DeLaney) wrote:
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>>Which, while it probably has some basis in fact, still doesn't account
>>>for my brother-in-law's accentless parents and older brother.
>>
>>"Accentless." Pfui. I know better than that. They have accents, but
>>they're upper-middle-class central New Jersey accents (think
>>Princeton), rather than Hungarian.
>
>ObSomewhereNearSF: "I ... can ... tell ... that ... she ... was ... born -
>HUNGARIAN!"
>
>Dave "and not only that, of noble blood. She is - a princess!" DeLaney
Hmm. For some twisted reason, I keep thinking "Eliza Heterodyne."
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Dorothy J Heydt
John Francis
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:26:11 +0000 (UTC), jo...@panix.com (John
>Francis) wrote:
>
>>In this she was, as are most, a child of her age - she went to her
>>grave regretting the increasing number of regional dialects to be
>>heard in the voices of BBC newsreaders (and also the acceptance of
>>vulgarities into everyday speech, but that's a different story).
>
>Which is interesting, as British dialects are actually decreasing as
>the nation gets less isolated and media more widespread. Her upset
>wasn't that they existed - it was that she heard them.
More that the accents were no longer perceived as being a status marker,
which contradicted everything she had been brought up to believe.
In the 1960s and 1970s, for example, it would be practically unthinkable
for a BBC newsreader to speak anything other than RP (even if, by then,
they no longer had to wear formal dress to read the news). By the turn
of the century TV and radio news presenters are no longer restricted to
a single mode of speaking.
cryptoguy
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:20:42 -0700, Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
> >On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:01:32 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans
> ><l...@sff.net> wrote:
>
>
> >>>Children pick up accents easily...
>
> >>Not all children; once again, I cite my brother-in-law who came to
> >>America in 1956 at the age of eight, and unlike his brothers and
> >>parents, still has a Hungarian accent fifty-three years later.
> >>There's significant individual variation.
>
> >Some linguists, Stephen Pinker among them, I believe, say that it
> >is about eight years of age that a child's innate language
> >ability begins to fade and after that it becomes difficult to
> >lose one's native accent. I believe it's Pinker that points out
> >Henry Kissinger came to the USA a bit older than that and never
> >lost his accent, while his younger brother speaks English with no
> >discernible German accent.
>
> Which, while it probably has some basis in fact, still doesn't account
> for my brother-in-law's accentless parents and older brother.
'Accentless'? T'aint no such thing. Everyone has an accent. It may be
'American', 'English', 'Australian', etc with subdivisions within
that. but its an accent. People who speak the way you're used to don't
have an accent, but only to *your* ears.
pt
cryptoguy
> In article <rioqg5p7h7o52r8imfjbo5h3kh5nk2t...@news.eternal-september.org>,
Not that I've ever heard. There is a Boston accent, but its not
confined to that small liberal arts college up Mass Ave from MIT.
pt
James
That an interesting story. I've been singing all my life and listened
to choirs from all over. Many good choirs (perhaps emulating specific
styles from well regarded choir schools) tend to try and eliminate
individual accents during singing and blend into one sound. Its
possible to hear choirs from all over Europe and North America and not
be able to distinguish at all where they are from. I sang in a
quartet with singers from Italy, New Zealand and England, and it was
impossible to tell we weren't from the same area , until we stopped
singing.
On the other hand in some high end choirs I've been subjected to
endless debates about whether we should use a "high German"
pronounciation of Latin while singing a Bach mass, or something more
close to Italian.
James Linn
Lon
There is an accent I've noted in various locales in the mid to upper
east. Not sure of its origin or if it is a regional or cultivated
artificial accent/manner of speech. Best described as the "Elizabeth
Ashley" accent.
Ralph Jones
The wife and I had an enjoyable conversation on a train from Paris to
Tours, with a young woman whose accent baffled me at first. Her
English was grammatically flawless, but with an accent that was French
with the merest hint of something unidentified.
All became clear when she stood up and we saw her sweatshirt: Sydney
University. Tours is a center of linguistic education, and she was a
grad student on her way home from a year of teaching French in Oz. Her
English had picked up a faintly Australian color in that year, without
losing the French accent.
Interesting sidenote: she had initiated the conversation when she
heard us speaking English and asked where we were from. She wanted to
characterize our accents, too...
rj
Howard Brazee
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Indeed. The only place where people speak with no accent at all is
>here in Virginia. And only in the northeast part of Virginia.
And only some people.
Bill Snyder
<how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:55:53 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
><k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>>Indeed. The only place where people speak with no accent at all is
>>here in Virginia. And only in the northeast part of Virginia.
>
>And only some people.
Are these the ones who announce a vermin invasion with "There's a
moose in the hoose?"
Dorothy J Heydt
Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:29:34 -0700, Howard Brazee
><how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:55:53 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
>><k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Indeed. The only place where people speak with no accent at all is
>>>here in Virginia. And only in the northeast part of Virginia.
>>
>>And only some people.
>
>Are these the ones who announce a vermin invasion with "There's a
>moose in the hoose?"
No, that would be some people in certain parts of some regions of
Canada. And maybe Scotland.
R H Draney
>
>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:55:53 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
><k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>>Indeed. The only place where people speak with no accent at all is
>>here in Virginia. And only in the northeast part of Virginia.
>
>And only some people.
And only if you wake them suddenly in the middle of the night....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Bill Snyder
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <9cntg5pav5cjb7j8h...@4ax.com>,
>Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:
>>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:29:34 -0700, Howard Brazee
>><how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:55:53 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
>>><k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Indeed. The only place where people speak with no accent at all is
>>>>here in Virginia. And only in the northeast part of Virginia.
>>>
>>>And only some people.
>>
>>Are these the ones who announce a vermin invasion with "There's a
>>moose in the hoose?"
>
>No, that would be some people in certain parts of some regions of
>Canada. And maybe Scotland.
Not exclusive to those places, however, hence the question:
<http://www.baconsrebellion.com/Issues05/05-09/Curious.htm>
The famous Tidewater accent, on the other hand, is a part
of the Southern Coastal dialect, quite similar to the Virginia
Piedmont. It roughly stretches along the James River from
Virginia Beach/Norfolk (“Nawfuk”) to a little past Richmond.
Tidewater Virginians tend to call their mothers’ sisters
“ahnts” and the “ow” sound becomes a long “o,” so that
“house” becomes “hoose.” They also pronounce “car” as “kyar."
Going strictly by that, people from the NE portion of Virginia
wouldn't have that accent. But since that also says it stops at
around Richmond, while the friend's wife who discovered the moose
comes from Charlottesville, it may be a bit more widespread than
that article would indicate.
Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)
Heydt) wrote:
> In article <9cntg5pav5cjb7j8h...@4ax.com>,
> Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:
> >On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:29:34 -0700, Howard Brazee
> ><how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> >
> >>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:55:53 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
> >><k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Indeed. The only place where people speak with no accent at all is
> >>>here in Virginia. And only in the northeast part of Virginia.
> >>
> >>And only some people.
> >
> >Are these the ones who announce a vermin invasion with "There's a
> >moose in the hoose?"
>
> No, that would be some people in certain parts of some regions of
> Canada. And maybe Scotland.
No, he's right about part of Virginia having the same accent some
Canadians do. I worked with two test pilots, one from that part of
Virginia and one from Western Canada, and their accents were almost
identical. The Virginian used to accuse the Canadian of imitating his
accent and vice versa.
Mary "The pilot from VA pulled the drag petals off the NT-33A."
--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer
We didn't just do weird stuff at Dryden, we wrote reports about it.
reunite....@gmail.com or mil...@qnet.com
Visit my blog at http://thedigitalknitter.blogspot.com/
Warren Oates
"Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)" <reunite....@gmail.com>
wrote:
> No, he's right about part of Virginia having the same accent some
> Canadians do. I worked with two test pilots, one from that part of
> Virginia and one from Western Canada, and their accents were almost
> identical. The Virginian used to accuse the Canadian of imitating his
> accent and vice versa.
There's an accent from the Canadian east-coast provinces (mostly New
Brunswick and PEI, but not Newfoundland, though) that's identical to
what Vermonters consider an "honest-to-god Vermont accent."
--
Suddenly he realized that he was alone
with a giant halfwit on a dark deserted street.
-- Chester Himes
James
> In article <t6eug5hg2tqrper14p4innng21s0or1...@4ax.com>,
> "Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)" <reunite.gondw...@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
> > No, he's right about part of Virginia having the same accent some
> > Canadians do. I worked with two test pilots, one from that part of
> > Virginia and one from Western Canada, and their accents were almost
> > identical. The Virginian used to accuse the Canadian of imitating his
> > accent and vice versa.
>
> There's an accent from the Canadian east-coast provinces (mostly New
> Brunswick and PEI, but not Newfoundland, though) that's identical to
> what Vermonters consider an "honest-to-god Vermont accent."
Heard a fascinating radio program from the 70s that was recently
replayed on CBC radio that delved into this. They went deeper into
regional variations. There are areas of Nova Scotia (south shore)where
you'd swear you were hearing a Massacheusetts fisherman, others that
sound totally different. Much would be the same with New Brunswick and
PEI, where you also have the added variation of having the influence
of French speakers, concentrated in some areas and not others. Sadly
though one of the points of the program was that these interesting
variations were doomed to die out for various reasons, not the least
of which is the urbanization - small isolated towns being depopulated
by people moving to the city.
As for Mary's friend from Western Canada, its certainly possible,
there is much variation in Western Canada as well.
Funny there was a relevant news story yesterday. One of the opposition
political parties in Alberta had a staff member resign because he made
a twitter about the Premier (like Governor) and his "Ukrainian"
accent. Until I read the story, I hadn't though he had a distinct
accent, and that was universally what others had said as well.
If you want an easy sample of what a homogenised Canadian urban accent
sounds like, just watch US news for Peter Jennings, John Roberts,
Keith Morrison (or formerly Arthur Kent) etc.
James
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> Heard a fascinating radio program from the 70s that was recently
> replayed on CBC radio that delved into this. They went deeper into
> regional variations. There are areas of Nova Scotia (south shore)where
> you'd swear you were hearing a Massacheusetts fisherman, others that
> sound totally different.
There were several towns in Nova Scotia which received massive influx of
people from eastern Connecticut and Massachusetts about the time of the
Revolutionary War. This includes a batch of my relatives from in and
around Mansfield, CT, who left not because they were Torys but because
they were Baptist and were undergoing a bit of persecution.
http://www.biographi.ca/009004-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=1854&&PHPSESSID=ychzfqkvzape
Charles
James
Interesting point.The story helps reinforce the ability of those in
rural regions to maintain a "unique" accent and pass it on.
Much the same was true for my ancestors. They left Scotland during the
clearances, and settled first in northern Ireland, in an area full of
those from Scotland. When they came to Canada, they settled in an area
that was rural and predominantly scottish. You can still hear a trace
of scottish in my father and his siblings it was more pronounced in my
grandparents, but of course they moved from near the old homestead.
James
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Warren Oates <warren...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <t6eug5hg2tqrper14...@4ax.com>,
> "Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)" <reunite....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> No, he's right about part of Virginia having the same accent some
>> Canadians do. I worked with two test pilots, one from that part of
>> Virginia and one from Western Canada, and their accents were almost
>> identical. The Virginian used to accuse the Canadian of imitating his
>> accent and vice versa.
>
>There's an accent from the Canadian east-coast provinces (mostly New
>Brunswick and PEI, but not Newfoundland, though) that's identical to
>what Vermonters consider an "honest-to-god Vermont accent."
>--
Certain Charleston SC accents sound a bit Boston-ish.
Keith F. Lynch
>>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>>>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>>> Indeed. The only place where people speak with no accent at all
>>>>> is here in Virginia. And only in the northeast part of Virginia.
>>>> And only some people.
True. Even my close relatives have a very, very slight accent.
I'm the only one with no accent at all.
>>> Are these the ones who announce a vermin invasion with "There's a
>>> moose in the hoose?"
>> No, that would be some people in certain parts of some regions of
>> Canada. And maybe Scotland.
> Not exclusive to those places, however, hence the question:
> <http://www.baconsrebellion.com/Issues05/05-09/Curious.htm>
> The famous Tidewater accent, on the other hand, is a part of the
> Southern Coastal dialect, quite similar to the Virginia Piedmont.
> It roughly stretches along the James River from Virginia Beach/
> Norfolk (\342\200\234Nawfuk\342\200\235) to a little past Richmond.
> Tidewater Virginians tend to call their mothers\342\200\231 sisters
> \342\200\234ahnts\342\200\235 and the \342\200\234ow\342\200\235
> sound becomes a long \342\200\234o,\342\200\235 so that
> \342\200\234house\342\200\235 becomes \342\200\234hoose.\342\200\235
> They also pronounce \342\200\234car\342\200\235 as \342\200\234kyar."
They do speak differently in the southeast corner of the state. But I
don't recall them speaking octal digits or backslashes. Maybe in the
western corner of the state, where they speak so oddly I can hardly
understand them.
cryptoguy
> Bill Snyder <bsny...@airmail.net> wrote:
> > djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
Keith, the headers of the message you quote say, quite clearly:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Please update your software to conform to current standards. If your
dumb terminal can't keep up, don't expect everyone else to dumb
themselves down as well.
pt
Bill Snyder
Or he could try the included URL, from which that was cut &
pasted. Then again, maybe he has an ASCII-only browser too. (And
somebody should definitely tell whatever *nix dialect that is
about hexadecimal; I haven't seen bytes that went to 377 since
playing with a Heath H-8 back around '79.)
Keith F. Lynch
> Then again, maybe he has an ASCII-only browser too.
My terminal is not ASCII-only. It supports the whole of the eight-bit
ISO-8859-1 ("Latin-1") character set, which includes accented letters
used with the Latin alphabet.
It's true that it doesn't support other alphabets such as Greek,
Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic, Japanese, or Chinese. But since I can't
read the languages that are written in those alphabets, it doesn't
matter. Nothing posted in English should require more than ISO-8859-1.
(Actually, my terminal does support uploadable fonts.)
> (And somebody should definitely tell whatever *nix dialect that
> is about hexadecimal; I haven't seen bytes that went to 377 since
> playing with a Heath H-8 back around '79.)
Octal vs. hexadecimal has nothing to do with the operating system.
I see plenty of both in this newsgroup and elsewhere. For instance
Robert Carnegie's email address sometimes ends with .or\255g, other
times with .or=ADg, and yet other times with .or=EF=BF=BDg.
(=EF=BF=BD seems to be a generic glyph of bafflement, as it also often
appears in place of the space bar, especially but not exclusively when
there are two spaces in a row.)
In just the past week, Michal's name has appeared here as:
Michal Dwuznik
Micha? Dwu?nik
Micha\205 Dwu\205\274nik
Micha\305 Dwu\305\274nik
Micha\305\202 Dwu\305\274nik
Micha\303\205 Dwu\303\205\305\222nik
Micha\357\277\275 Dwu\305\274nik
Micha\303\205 Dwu\303\205\205\222nik
Micha=C5 Dwu=C5=3Fnik
Micha=C5 Dwu=C5=3D3Fnik
Micha=EF=BF=3D3F Dwu=C5=3D3Fnik
Micha=3DEF=3DBF=3D3D3F Dwu=3DC5=3D3D3Fnik
=?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiBEd3XFvG5paw==?
This wild variance isn't at *my* end. Each level of quoting mangles
it further and differently, depending on how each participant's system
interprets stuff it doesn't understand. If there is allegedly some
universal standard for handling non-ASCII on Usenet that's been around
for more than a decade, I think it's long past time to admit that it's
a failure. Unless folks would rather keep endlessly railing at the 99
percent of people using non-compliant software to upgrade. There is
of course little value in anyone upgrading unless everyone else also
simultaneously upgrades, since software won't revert others' manglement.
Just last month I let myself be talked into upgrading to the latest
version of trn. It didn't help.
cryptoguy
> Bill Snyder <bsny...@airmail.net> wrote:
> > Then again, maybe he has an ASCII-only browser too.
>
> My terminal is not ASCII-only. It supports the whole of the eight-bit
> ISO-8859-1 ("Latin-1") character set, which includes accented letters
> used with the Latin alphabet.
..and is non-compliant with RFC 2277, which states that protocols MUST
support UTF-8. It can't even handle Michal's name correctly; that
would require Latin-2, nor Estonian, which would require Latin-4 (nor
of course, UTF-8, which handles all of them, and is the current
standard). Your HW isn't up to snuff.
> It's true that it doesn't support other alphabets such as Greek,
> Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic, Japanese, or Chinese. But since I can't
> read the languages that are written in those alphabets, it doesn't
> matter. Nothing posted in English should require more than ISO-8859-1.
I'm unaware of an RFC that mandatets the use of English on Usenet. Can
you give me a cite? How do you propose to represent names with
accented characters?
> (Actually, my terminal does support uploadable fonts.)
So fix it so it does The Right Thing. You claim to be a hotshot
programmer.
> In just the past week, Michal's name has appeared here as:
>
> Michal Dwuznik
> Micha? Dwu?nik
> Micha\205 Dwu\205\274nik
> Micha\305 Dwu\305\274nik
> Micha\305\202 Dwu\305\274nik
> Micha\303\205 Dwu\303\205\305\222nik
> Micha\357\277\275 Dwu\305\274nik
> Micha\303\205 Dwu\303\205\205\222nik
> Micha=C5 Dwu=C5=3Fnik
> Micha=C5 Dwu=C5=3D3Fnik
> Micha=EF=BF=3D3F Dwu=C5=3D3Fnik
> Micha=3DEF=3DBF=3D3D3F Dwu=3DC5=3D3D3Fnik
> =?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiBEd3XFvG5paw==?
You're missing the representation in my reader, which showed it
correctly
(that is, none of the above).
As for standards, may I point to the 1998 RFC 2277, IETF Policy on
Character Sets and Languages:
- start quote -
3.1. What charset to use
All protocols MUST identify, for all character data, which charset
is in use.
Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of
the ISO 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8
character
encoding scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in
Amendment 2), for all text.
- end quote -
Fix your reader. Encourage others to fix their own.
Honestly Keith, you're the only person who makes a major habit of
bitching about this. The rest of the world shrugs and moves on. You
seem to want the net dumbed down to match your outdated, no longer
compliant setup.
pt
Keith F. Lynch
> Please update your software to conform to current standards.
I am using the latest version of trn. Complain to its authors.
If everyone else here is compliant, how did the same name get
rendered in a dozen different forms?
R H Draney
>
>On Nov 28, 1:44 pm, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>> In just the past week, Michal's name has appeared here as:
>>
>> Michal Dwuznik
>> Micha? Dwu?nik
>> Micha\205 Dwu\205\274nik
>> Micha\305 Dwu\305\274nik
>> Micha\305\202 Dwu\305\274nik
>> Micha\303\205 Dwu\303\205\305\222nik
>> Micha\357\277\275 Dwu\305\274nik
>> Micha\303\205 Dwu\303\205\205\222nik
>> Micha=C5 Dwu=C5=3Fnik
>> Micha=C5 Dwu=C5=3D3Fnik
>> Micha=EF=BF=3D3F Dwu=C5=3D3Fnik
>> Micha=3DEF=3DBF=3D3D3F Dwu=3DC5=3D3D3Fnik
>> =?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiBEd3XFvG5paw==?
>
>You're missing the representation in my reader, which showed it
>correctly
>(that is, none of the above).
I see it with the correct Polish characters when I display one of his messages,
truncated as "Micha�, Dw" in the summary of headings, and as the UTF-8 string
when I try to quote him...this is one of the main reasons I stopped trying to
post in Chinese newsgroups....
Given the propensity of some people to either omit encoding headers altogether
or supply the wrong values with them, the "right thing" can only be defined as
"do whatever the hell you want and stop bitching if you don't like the way it
comes out on your screen"....
And before you tell me to change newsreaders, please suggest how I can do this
with a web browser on a computer where there's no form of Outlook installed and
a firewall proxy that I can't get the password for, and that will allow me to
access binaries....r
Keith F. Lynch
> ..and is non-compliant with RFC 2277, which states that protocols
> MUST support UTF-8.
This is Usenet, which predates the Internet. RFCs apply only to
the latter.
I'm not going to apologize for software which treats one byte as one
character and three bytes as three characters. Anyhow, I didn't write
it. If you think trn is wrong, complain to its authors, not to me.
I'm using the latest version.
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> It's true that it doesn't support other alphabets such as Greek,
>> Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic, Japanese, or Chinese. But since I can't
>> read the languages that are written in those alphabets, it doesn't
>> matter. Nothing posted in English should require more than ISO-8859-1.
> I'm unaware of an RFC that mandatets the use of English on Usenet.
> Can you give me a cite?
Can you give me a cite of where I made any such claim?
Other languages have their own newsgroups, websites, and email lists.
And, where necessary, their own character codes. As I said, Unicode
is only useful if you insist on seeing several alphabets *on the same
page*. There is very little demand for that.
Posting in other languages in afu and rasfw will result in widespread
incomprehension, even if every character displays correctly, since not
everyone can read every language. But you knew that. You're just
arguing to be arguing.
>> (Actually, my terminal does support uploadable fonts.)
> So fix it so it does The Right Thing. You claim to be a hotshot
> programmer.
>> In just the past week, Michal's name has appeared here as:
>> Michal Dwuznik
>> Micha? Dwu?nik
>> Micha\205 Dwu\205\274nik
>> Micha\305 Dwu\305\274nik
>> Micha\305\202 Dwu\305\274nik
>> Micha\303\205 Dwu\303\205\305\222nik
>> Micha\357\277\275 Dwu\305\274nik
>> Micha\303\205 Dwu\303\205\205\222nik
>> Micha=C5 Dwu=C5=3Fnik
>> Micha=C5 Dwu=C5=3D3Fnik
>> Micha=EF=BF=3D3F Dwu=C5=3D3Fnik
>> Micha=3DEF=3DBF=3D3D3F Dwu=3DC5=3D3D3Fnik
>> =?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiBEd3XFvG5paw==?
And you suggest I write something that will turn each and every one of
these into the same thing, in other words undo arbitrary mangling done
by other systems?
> You're missing the representation in my reader, which showed it
> correctly (that is, none of the above).
You completely missed my point, as usual. If everyone but me were
compliant, then that name might appear wrongly to me, but it would
always appear to me with *the same* wrongness. So I conclude that
many people here are not compliant, and are seeing gibberish.
> As for standards, may I point to the 1998 RFC 2277, IETF Policy on
> Character Sets and Languages:
Which nowhere mentions Usenet or newsgroups.
> Fix your reader. Encourage others to fix their own.
Complain to the authors of trn. I don't have a dog in this fight.
> Honestly Keith, you're the only person who makes a major habit of
> bitching about this. The rest of the world shrugs and moves on.
So? Only one person pointed out that the emperor was naked.
Michał Dwużnik
please prove my fault? In happened to sign some posts with diacritics,
what is my real name in a way I've written it since I had learned to
write. Transliterating to English is not that different to become a
habit. As far as I remember the contents of "From:" field is not forced
to be ans ASCII transliteration of ones real name.
Regards
Michal
Michał Dwużnik
>>
> The _From:_ field stayed the same throughout the last week. Could you
> write. Transliterating to English is not that different to become a
> habit. As far as I remember the contents of "From:" field is not forced
>
Sorry for the typos in the previous post.
Michal
Keith F. Lynch
> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> In just the past week, Michal's name has appeared here as:
>> Michal Dwuznik
>> Micha? Dwu?nik
>> Micha\205 Dwu\205\274nik
>> Micha\305 Dwu\305\274nik
>> Micha\305\202 Dwu\305\274nik
>> Micha\303\205 Dwu\303\205\305\222nik
>> Micha\357\277\275 Dwu\305\274nik
>> Micha\303\205 Dwu\303\205\205\222nik
>> Micha=C5 Dwu=C5=3Fnik
>> Micha=C5 Dwu=C5=3D3Fnik
>> Micha=EF=BF=3D3F Dwu=C5=3D3Fnik
>> Micha=3DEF=3DBF=3D3D3F Dwu=3DC5=3D3D3Fnik
>> =?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiBEd3XFvG5paw==?
> The _From:_ field stayed the same throughout the last week. Could
> you please prove my fault?
I didn't say it was your fault. Indeed, my point has been that the
fact that your name gets mangled in so many different ways when
various people quote it and requote it shows that the majority of
people here are *not* compliant with the alleged standard. If they
were compliant, then it would always look the same to me. Wrong,
perhaps, but the same.
If the standard is more than ten years old and most people still
aren't compliant, then I think it's time to admit that it was a
failure, and try something else.
This has nothing to do with who chooses to use a standard text
terminal rather than a bit-mapped VGA computer screen. Text terminals
can show accented letters properly, and usually do. Bit-mapped VGA
computer screens can fail to display text correctly, and often do.
Michał Dwużnik
amount of diacritics in his own name and From: field, without getting
all the whining about that. Any ideas why?
> If the standard is more than ten years old and most people still
> aren't compliant, then I think it's time to admit that it was a
> failure, and try something else.
>
Are you sure proposing sth else would succeed in 10 years scope?
Go on, propose. I disagree to take steps back to the time of the "ASCII
ought to be enough for everyone" and other things equally true as "The
world needs about five computers". I happen to read newsgroups where one
post may include diacritics non covered by ASCII coming from a few
different languages, and the vast majority of readers happens to quote
them properly...
> This has nothing to do with who chooses to use a standard text
> terminal rather than a bit-mapped VGA computer screen. Text terminals
> can show accented letters properly, and usually do. Bit-mapped VGA
> computer screens can fail to display text correctly, and often do.
This has nothing to do, but the dumb terminals have a long history of
being used as an excuse for noncompliance...
Michal
David Scheidt
:cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
:> Please update your software to conform to current standards.
:I am using the latest version of trn. Complain to its authors.
Consider using software that works.
--
sig 72
cryptoguy
> cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Please update your software to conform to current standards.
>
> I am using the latest version of trn. Complain to its authors.
Thats not the Open Source Way. If its got a problem, and you're
competent, you fix it yourself, and feed the fixes back into the
source tree.
The source code is here:
http://www.openbsd.org/4.6_packages/i386/trn-4.0.76p1.tgz-long.html
Go and fix your problem.
pt
cryptoguy
> cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ..and is non-compliant with RFC 2277, which states that protocols
> > MUST support UTF-8.
>
> This is Usenet, which predates the Internet. RFCs apply only to
> the latter.
Sorry, you're confused. Sure, if you can find others who *want* to
restrict themselves to uucp connections, you can do that. I guess
you'll mostly talk about retrocomputing, since those are the only
people who will voluntarily ignore the superior IP solution.
If you want to play on the Internet, you comply with the IETF and its
RFCs. Usenet doesn't get grandfathered in; that's not how it works.
> I'm not going to apologize for software which treats one byte as one
> character and three bytes as three characters. Anyhow, I didn't write
> it. If you think trn is wrong, complain to its authors, not to me.
> I'm using the latest version.
You should apologize; as should everyone else who isn't handling UTF-8
correctly. Support of that encoding is a MUST for internet protocols.
> > "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >> It's true that it doesn't support other alphabets such as Greek,
> >> Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic, Japanese, or Chinese. But since I can't
> >> read the languages that are written in those alphabets, it doesn't
> >> matter. Nothing posted in English should require more than ISO-8859-1.
> > I'm unaware of an RFC that mandatets the use of English on Usenet.
> > Can you give me a cite?
>
> Can you give me a cite of where I made any such claim?
>
> Other languages have their own newsgroups, websites, and email lists.
> And, where necessary, their own character codes. As I said, Unicode
> is only useful if you insist on seeing several alphabets *on the same
> page*. There is very little demand for that.
Really? Most Internet users these days don't regard English as their
first language.
> Which nowhere mentions Usenet or newsgroups.
It doesn't limit itself to *any* protocol or protocols. It discusses
Internet protocols, globally. That is to say, all of them. NNRP and
NNTP are Intenet protocols. Sorry, you can't get out of it that way.
SW and HW that don't support UTF-8 are not compliant.
> > Fix your reader. Encourage others to fix their own.
>
> Complain to the authors of trn. I don't have a dog in this fight.
Prove you're a hotshot programmer. Fix it, feed your changes back into
the tree. That is, if you're competent.
> > Honestly Keith, you're the only person who makes a major habit of
> > bitching about this. The rest of the world shrugs and moves on.
>
> So? Only one person pointed out that the emperor was naked.
False analogy.
pt
cryptoguy
Yours can't. It supports Latin-1. Latin-2 is required to show Michal's
name correctly.
pt
cryptoguy
Keith has stated that very few people need to do this. This is
probably a truism for people named Keith Lynch, but he has
demonstrated very little awareness of the scope and scale of the world
internet.
> > This has nothing to do with who chooses to use a standard text
> > terminal rather than a bit-mapped VGA computer screen. Text terminals
> > can show accented letters properly, and usually do. Bit-mapped VGA
> > computer screens can fail to display text correctly, and often do.
Keith's dumb terminal cant show Polish correctly, unless he hand-codes
a font to do so. He appears unwilling to do so.
> This has nothing to do, but the dumb terminals have a long history of
> being used as an excuse for noncompliance...
I'm sure that's true.
pt
Robert A. Woodward
<203f6129-7267-467c...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>
,
cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 28, 1:44 pm, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> > Bill Snyder <bsny...@airmail.net> wrote:
> > > Then again, maybe he has an ASCII-only browser too.
> >
> > My terminal is not ASCII-only. It supports the whole of the eight-bit
> > ISO-8859-1 ("Latin-1") character set, which includes accented letters
> > used with the Latin alphabet.
>
> ..and is non-compliant with RFC 2277, which states that protocols MUST
> support UTF-8. It can't even handle Michal's name correctly; that
> would require Latin-2, nor Estonian, which would require Latin-4 (nor
> of course, UTF-8, which handles all of them, and is the current
> standard). Your HW isn't up to snuff.
>
I will point out that I see worse representations of Michal's name
than the one in Keith's replies. BTW, what is the correct
representation, one post (UTF-8) didn't have a "l", it had a
character that had a vertical stroke with a short sloped stroke
through it. For may part, I am seeing a double copyright symbol
instead of sixth letter in Michal's first name.
--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>
Kurt Busiek
Why argue with him? He won't change his mind, and the world won't all
change their newsreaders to suit him, so it's ultimately pointless.
Let him shout at the tide by himself; it accomplished just as much and
saves you the effort.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Brian M. Scott
<robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in
robertaw-1F4AD2...@news.individual.net:
[...]
> I will point out that I see worse representations of Michal's name than
> the one in Keith's replies. BTW, what is the correct representation, one
> post (UTF-8) didn't have a "l", it had a character that had a vertical
> stroke with a short sloped stroke through it. [...]
That's correct: l-with-stroke, U+0142.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81>
Brian
Michał Dwużnik
>
> I will point out that I see worse representations of Michal's name
> than the one in Keith's replies. BTW, what is the correct
> representation, one post (UTF-8) didn't have a "l", it had a
> character that had a vertical stroke with a short sloped stroke
> through it. For may part, I am seeing a double copyright symbol
> instead of sixth letter in Michal's first name.
>
crossed with a slanted short line in the middle. Pronounced as 'w',
so my (and in general Polish) variant of "Michael" would be "Meehow". As
for my family name there's z with a dot (small one) above it. Szymon
Sokol has the same letter ("l/" combined) at the end of his family name,
preceded by by "o'" combined (which happens to be former "long o"
pronounced as English "oo").
As you may have already detected the transliteration for ASCII is Michal
Dwuznik, thank you for your curiousity.
Michal
Keith F. Lynch
> For the sake of non-compliant people - the last character is an l,
> crossed with a slanted short line in the middle. Pronounced as
> 'w', so my (and in general Polish) variant of "Michael" would be
> "Meehow". As for my family name there's z with a dot (small one)
> above it.
Thanks. Who here sees these characters correctly in his posts?
It's my impression that very few do. Who here sees these characters
correctly in his posts when they're quoted by people other than me?
It's my impression that even fewer do.
If everyone but me were compliant with the standard in question,
everyone but me would see those characters correctly, both in Michal's
posts and in all posts (other than mine) which quote his posts.
Michał Dwużnik
> Micha\305 Dwu\305\274nik <"michal[dot]dwuznik[at]cern[dot]ch"@think.a.bit.before.replying> wrote:
>> For the sake of non-compliant people - the last character is an l,
>> crossed with a slanted short line in the middle. Pronounced as
>> 'w', so my (and in general Polish) variant of "Michael" would be
>> "Meehow". As for my family name there's z with a dot (small one)
>> above it.
>
> Thanks. Who here sees these characters correctly in his posts?
Are you really expecting all the people to rush to answer your poll?
That's quite an ego...
Michal
R H Draney
I see them correctly in your posts, even in Newsguy gets all flustered when I
try to reply (note UTF-8 string above)... I don't see them correctly in Keith's
quotes, though....r
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Interestingly, or not, my FreeBSD/xterm/trn renders your last name as
having a one glyph "1/4" sign in it..
Bill Snyder
I think part of the problem may be due to the fact that while your
message headers do specify utf-8 for the character set, they also
specify 7bit for content-transfer-encoding. <As I Understand It>
<I Am Not A Guru> [1] that's inconsistent with sending anything
with the high bit set.
1. Acronyms duly expanded in accordance with our confreres' BOA.
cryptoguy
I see them correctly in Michal's posts, in both GG and xnews. I
haven't done a survey of who gets them wrong or right.
pt
Jo'Asia
> I think part of the problem may be due to the fact that while your
> message headers do specify utf-8 for the character set, they also
> specify 7bit for content-transfer-encoding. <As I Understand It>
> <I Am Not A Guru> [1] that's inconsistent with sending anything
> with the high bit set.
That's probably because he did not use any non-ASCII characters in the
message body. Headers are always 7bit so there is no need to specify that.
Jo'Asia
--
__.-=-. -< Joanna Slupek >----------------------< http://esensja.pl/ >-
--<()> -< joasia @ hell . pl >------< http://bujold.fantastyka.net/ >-
.__.'| -< You can get more with a kind word and a two-by-four than
you can with just a kind word. {Babylon 5, Marcus Cole} >-
Kurt Busiek
I see them correctly in Michał's posts. And I see the characters in
Szymon's posts correctly, too.
Moriarty
> On Nov 29, 3:53 pm, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Micha\305 Dwu\305\274nik <"michal[dot]dwuznik[at]cern[dot]ch"@think.a.bit.before.replying> wrote:
> > > For the sake of non-compliant people - the last character is an l,
> > > crossed with a slanted short line in the middle. Pronounced as
> > > 'w', so my (and in general Polish) variant of "Michael" would be
> > > "Meehow". As for my family name there's z with a dot (small one)
> > > above it.
>
> > Thanks. Who here sees these characters correctly in his posts?
> > It's my impression that very few do. Who here sees these characters
> > correctly in his posts when they're quoted by people other than me?
> > It's my impression that even fewer do.
>
> > If everyone but me were compliant with the standard in question,
> > everyone but me would see those characters correctly, both in Michal's
> > posts and in all posts (other than mine) which quote his posts.
> > --
> > Keith F. Lynch -http://keithlynch.net/
>
> I see them correctly in Michal's posts, in both GG and xnews. I
> haven't done a survey of who gets them wrong or right.
So all you need to see the posts correctly is something with the tech
level of at least GG? That's not a particularly high bar to climb...
-Moriarty
R H Draney
>
>So all you need to see the posts correctly is something with the tech
>level of at least GG? That's not a particularly high bar to climb...
To climb that bar, I'd need a shovel....r
Keith F. Lynch
> I see them correctly in Michal's posts, in both GG and xnews.
Thanks.
> I haven't done a survey of who gets them wrong or right.
But do you typically see them correctly in replies other than mine?
Keith F. Lynch
> I think part of the problem may be due to the fact that while your
> message headers do specify utf-8 for the character set, they also
> specify 7bit for content-transfer-encoding. <As I Understand It>
> <I Am Not A Guru> [1] that's inconsistent with sending anything
> with the high bit set.
"=?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiBEd3XFvG5paw==?=" has no high bits set. Nor do
"Micha=C5 =A0Dwu=C5=BCnik" or "Micha\305 Dwu\305\274nik." "Michał
Dwużnik" does. I think the first is UTF-8 encoded in base64, and the
last is raw UTF-8. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
> 1. Acronyms duly expanded in accordance with our confreres' BOA.
You miseed one. UTF -> Unicode Transformation Format.
Keith F. Lynch
> I see them correctly in your posts, even in Newsguy gets all
> flustered when I try to reply (note UTF-8 string above)...
> I don't see them correctly in Keith's quotes, though....r
But do you see them correctly in everyone else's quotes? If it's
true that I'm the only one here who is out of sync, then you should.
cryptoguy
Well, yours can't since it handles only Latin-1.
But I've actually poked around a bit. My responses to Michal's posts
show up with his name spelled correctly in the 'in msg xxx, foo
wrote:' header lines, so GG is doing the Right Thing, for once.
I still haven't done a real survey, but just looked at a few examples
I haven't found another reader that quotes them correctly. Dorothy's
gets it right inconsistently.
Keith, how do you think Usenet *should* handle names with characters
not included in US-ASCII? Do you think they should just get used to
seeing their names eternally misspelled, a punishment for not being an
born in an English speaking culture?
pt
.
Michał Dwużnik
> =?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiBEd3XFvG5paw==?= filted:
>> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>>> Micha\305 Dwu\305\274nik
>>> <"michal[dot]dwuznik[at]cern[dot]ch"@think.a.bit.before.replying> wrote:
>>>> For the sake of non-compliant people - the last character is an l,
>>>> crossed with a slanted short line in the middle. Pronounced as
>>>> 'w', so my (and in general Polish) variant of "Michael" would be
>>>> "Meehow". As for my family name there's z with a dot (small one)
>>>> above it.
>>> Thanks. Who here sees these characters correctly in his posts?
>> Are you really expecting all the people to rush to answer your poll?
>> That's quite an ego...
>
> I see them correctly in your posts, even in Newsguy gets all flustered when I
> try to reply (note UTF-8 string above)... I don't see them correctly in Keith's
> quotes, though....r
>
Michal
R H Draney
Yes, that's the Newsguy effect...it displays proper text in all sorts of
languages with no trouble (I've seen Greek, Arabic, Hebrew, Cyrillic, Katakana,
Devanagari, Hangul, all apparently as they were intended to be seen), but turns
it all into hash when I try to reply....
I can do the high-ASCII things like �, �, �, and all the accented vowels just
fine, either quoted in someone else's text or entered in my own, but nothing
beyond that....r
Michał Dwużnik
>
> I still haven't done a real survey, but just looked at a few examples
> I haven't found another reader that quotes them correctly. Dorothy's
> gets it right inconsistently.
>
> Keith, how do you think Usenet *should* handle names with characters
> not included in US-ASCII? Do you think they should just get used to
> seeing their names eternally misspelled, a punishment for not being an
> born in an English speaking culture?
>
of forcing all the others to adopt their crippled character set would be
a punishment itself :>
I'll let myself to produce a calibration post here, using the
opportunity. Disclaimer - all the contents of this post was written
using one keyboard layout, with no special preparations of the system
other than selecting "Polish programmers' keyboard" during installation
and ticking off "Caps Lock as Compose key" in the keyboard input
dialogue box (the one and only exception is explained below).
As Polish layout is only a slightly modified US QWERTY, it has no
particular ingenuity, no characters moved, only modification is turning
the right Alt key into a mechanism of producing Polish "strange letters"
(normally Alt-char renders the "modified char"). For this post I
refrained from using even that modification, all the stuff could have
been written with US keyboard layout with Compose key enabled.
All the characters in the post are rendered correctly both in my news
client (thunderbird), and in my X terminal window without changing the
default fonts. The default font in the "plain text" mode does not have
all the glyphs by default and I'm not willing to spend time hacking it
for Keith (I don't do fancy accented letters there anyway, despite that
I'm still using it)...
No need of knowledge about various encodings, no need of hacking your
own fonts, no need of editing config files was required to get the
result on my machine, with same mechanism working just as well on just
about anything fairly modern with some X Window System flavour running
there (or even with MS Windows flavours, what I just found writing that
post but haven't tried myself - http://allchars.zwolnet.com/), with some
more or less (much, much less in my case) time spent on selecting a
display font as far as I know.
Thanks to the Compose key and the mechanism of creating
the ligatures one may, without even touching their own precious keyboard
layout (including Dvorak or one-handed mutations, with "more mutations"
equal to "a bit more hacking or waiting for GNU community to hack
needed") produce the set of chars covering most of the languages written
in Latin based alphabets with almost whatever additions. Possible
without knowing the keyboard layout native to the language, without
knowing the way a particular sound is pronounced, without even knowing
it's role and if it's pronounced at all, without knowing the typography
issues leading to forming that glyph, only based on "what it looks like
if I happened to see it rendered correctly anywhere (cough cough)" for
most characters.
For some remaining characters I ever used typing requires simple
associations like "c stands for Czech" to produce Compose-c-s character
becoming inverted circumflexed s, š (let me apologize here the Slovaks,
Slovenians and Lakota people using those, too, as well as the others
using it and forgotten by me and Wikipedia).
If it's "crossed o" you Compose-o-/ leading to ø, if it's crossed l
(cough cough), you Compose-l-/ leading to ł, if it's a with a line on
top you Compose-a-- getting ã.
It does really cover purée, which Webster still claims as a _valid_
_English_(chuckle) variant, all the French âèëéç (guess the way of
forming a circumflex or c cedilla :>), it covers the officially
obsoleted German ss:ß, it covers ligature ae:æ and oe:œ for the more
history oriented, the Scandinavian ringed a - å (ok, it required two
tries - Compose-a-o does not work, Compose-o-a works) (same principle
for Czech ringed u ů).
Spanish/Portuguese world ~n ñ works, as well as inverted question and
exclamation marks ¿¡ produced by Compose-?-? and Compose-!-!
respectively. No matter what language it comes from, if it's i with an
apostrophe instead of a dot Compose-i-' í works, if it's z with a dot
(cough cough again) Compose-z-. ż works, too.
The degree symbol (Compose-o-o) ° is there, too, as well as one glyph
1/n fractions ½⅓¼⅕⅙⅛ (1/7 and 1/9 is not there, but some others like 3/4
¾, 3/8 ⅜ or 5/8 ⅝ are). Some other stuff like division sign ÷ (guess
what - composed - and :) is also there. More business related glyphs
are also easy to get ( c| L- Y- becoming ¢ £ ¥ currency symbols, TM
becoming the correct trademark ™ and co becoming nicely ©, the copyright
sign). Complete list of Polish ones is also available through Compose:
ąćęłńóśżźĄĆĘŁŃÓŚŻŹ.
This is by far not the complete list, as I'm no linguist,
and I only created a couple of examples I remember using myself or
existing in my friends' names or addresses, or in the names of places
(both of "town" and "pub" variety) I visit on a more or less regular basis.
I really tried hard to find a non working example playing around with my
keyboard and with the glyphs I barely remember existing. I admit some
glyphs are ugly, some are hinted in a bad way in Thunderbird, some look
worse than the others in a terminal window, but all are legible...
The only non working exception I found myself is the thorne letter ("Ye
Olde whatever" signs original letter, according to what I heard), where
no combination I tried managed to produce the expected þ glyph, which I
finally copied and pasted here from the wikipedia. I'm pretty sure
someone else may add Baltic languages, correctly describe Scandinavian
and Ugro-Finnish parts and so on. The useful thing would be seeing the
IPA characters alive and kicking here (I'm no pro in their use and can't
write the glyphs, but reading them helps me in many cases...). I do
really wonder if the font I use includes those.
Thanks to my friends occasionally using my machine when I travel I do
also know that the only thing needed for many other scripts is adding
the next keyboard layout - Persian[1], Russian, Czech and Greek have
been tried over the years in my presence, with results being readable
both on this (e.g. Mohammad typing an email in Persian) and the other
side (e.g. Kostas' family replying to his Greek email typed on my
machine after his battery failed on a meeting. What surprised me the
most was that with no config tuning was needed Persian left to right
writing, and the default font _included it_.
Judging by the lack of squares or question marks if I happen to get on a
Chinese or Japanese website the proper font/fonts have been included by
default, probably wasting some disk space and in the same move saving
people a handful of hacking...
Regards
Michal Dwuznik (deliberately crippled transliteration)
[1]My fellow Iranians prefer the language being called Persian and not
Farsi in English, I haven't asked for reasons, but keep that form.
David DeLaney
I don't even see them correctly in the HEADERS. Which indicates quite another
level of issue. Furthermore, as you may note above, various types of quoting
treat them differently, to the extent that we have both "Micha\ 305 Dwu\ 305\
274nik" and "= ?UTF-8 ?B ?T WljaGHFgiBEd3XFvG5paw== ?="... (Spaces added so
that anyone whose newsreader/editor IS trying to translate the code back into
various glyphs won't automatically do so, so they can SEE what we're dealing
with here. Much like my occasional mention that 'no, this is what email
_really looks like_' to someone looking in puzzlement at the PuTTY window.)
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>fine, either quoted in someone else's text or entered in my own, but nothing
>beyond that....r
And I can see those _correctly_ as the 1/2, (R), \-Y characters in the post I'm
replying to AND in the editor while I'm composing this. (Which means that cries
of 'your editor/newsreader can't handle anything but ASCII, stop bothering us'
will be mocked with vigor.) But they'll _probably_, based on past experience,
look like something else entirely to me, once this followup is posted.
Michał Dwużnik
> =?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiBEd3XFvG5paw==?= <@think.a.bit.before.replying> wrote:
>> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>>> Micha\305 Dwu\305\274nik
> <"michal[dot]dwuznik[at]cern[dot]ch"@think.a.bit.before.replying> wrote:
>>>> For the sake of non-compliant people - the last character is an l,
>>>> crossed with a slanted short line in the middle. Pronounced as
>>>> 'w', so my (and in general Polish) variant of "Michael" would be
>>>> "Meehow". As for my family name there's z with a dot (small one)
>>>> above it.
>>> Thanks. Who here sees these characters correctly in his posts?
>> Are you really expecting all the people to rush to answer your poll?
>> That's quite an ego...
>
> I don't even see them correctly in the HEADERS. Which indicates quite another
> level of issue.
How it may happen that people see them correctly and even quote them
correctly? Samo for me and Szymon.
Michal
Michał Dwużnik
> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> I can do the high-ASCII things like ½, ®, ¥, and all the accented vowels just
>> fine, either quoted in someone else's text or entered in my own, but nothing
>> beyond that....r
>
> And I can see those _correctly_ as the 1/2, (R), \-Y characters in the post I'm
> replying to AND in the editor while I'm composing this. (Which means that cries
> of 'your editor/newsreader can't handle anything but ASCII, stop bothering us'
> will be mocked with vigor.) But they'll _probably_, based on past experience,
> look like something else entirely to me, once this followup is posted.
>
As far as I remember Extended ASCII Table is ASCII...
Michal
David DeLaney
>R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>I can do the high-ASCII things like �, �, �, and all the accented vowels just
>>fine, either quoted in someone else's text or entered in my own, but nothing
>>beyond that....r
>
>And I can see those _correctly_ as the 1/2, (R), \-Y characters in the post I'm
>replying to AND in the editor while I'm composing this. (Which means that cries
>of 'your editor/newsreader can't handle anything but ASCII, stop bothering us'
>will be mocked with vigor.) But they'll _probably_, based on past experience,
>look like something else entirely to me, once this followup is posted.
Oh, now this is new in my experience - they're staying consistent.
netcat
> And before you tell me to change newsreaders, please suggest how I can do this
> with a web browser on a computer where there's no form of Outlook installed and
> a firewall proxy that I can't get the password for, and that will allow me to
> access binaries....r
Are you _allowed_ to install binaries, locally? Then you could download
something suitable somewhere else and bring it in on a flash stick.
rgds,
netcat
cryptoguy
I'm deliberately leaving in the full text of the post I'm replying to
so we can see what happens when GG quotes it. All the non-US-ASCII
glyphs in the post above appear to render correctly in GG. I'll check
in xnews as well.
Keith's won't. His 'dumb' HW terminal doesn't support UTF-8. It does
support Latin-1, and I think can be loaded with one of a number
national character sets (not including Polish), or a hand-crafted set
of bitmaps. I don't think it's possible to switch between them on the
fly.
pt
cryptoguy
Xnews unfortunately, does NOT show the non-US-ASCII characters in this
message correctly. This is odd, since I'm sure it did when I checked a
few days ago. I'm not going to repost from there, since that is on a
separate, private account.
I find myself wondering where the mangling can take place; there are
any number of possibilities.
* The posting client.
* One or more of the newservers the message passed through on the way.
This could vary from message to message.
* A firewall proxy anywhere along they way.
* The reader's client.
I could easily imagine some naive implementation stripping high bits.
or otherwise messing with the message.
pt
Michał Dwużnik
"executables" or "programs".
Michal
Michał Dwużnik
> David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>> I can do the high-ASCII things like ½, ®, ¥, and all the accented vowels just
>>> fine, either quoted in someone else's text or entered in my own, but nothing
>>> beyond that....r
>> And I can see those _correctly_ as the 1/2, (R), \-Y characters in the post I'm
>> replying to AND in the editor while I'm composing this. (Which means that cries
>> of 'your editor/newsreader can't handle anything but ASCII, stop bothering us'
>> will be mocked with vigor.) But they'll _probably_, based on past experience,
>> look like something else entirely to me, once this followup is posted.
>
> Oh, now this is new in my experience - they're staying consistent.
>
possible 8bit ASCII. Destroying that is quite an achievement itself...
Michal
Michał Dwużnik
>> The degree symbol (Compose-o-o) ° is there, too, as well as one glyph
>> 1/n fractions ½⅓¼⅕⅙⅛ (1/7 and 1/9 is not there, but some others like 3/4
>> ¾, 3/8 ⅜ or 5/8 ⅝ are). Some other stuff like division sign ÷ (guess
>> what - composed - and :) is also there. More business related glyphs
>> are also easy to get ( c| L- Y- becoming ¢ £ ¥ currency symbols, TM
>> becoming the correct trademark ™ and co becoming nicely ©, the copyright
>> sign). Complete list of Polish ones is also available through Compose:
>> ąćęłńóśżźĄĆĘŁŃÓŚŻŹ.
>>
>>
>
> I'm deliberately leaving in the full text of the post I'm replying to
> so we can see what happens when GG quotes it. All the non-US-ASCII
> glyphs in the post above appear to render correctly in GG. I'll check
> in xnews as well.
>
Michal
Michał Dwużnik
> cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Please update your software to conform to current standards.
>
> I am using the latest version of trn. Complain to its authors.
>
> If everyone else here is compliant, how did the same name get
> rendered in a dozen different forms?
"Latest version" equal to "including all the needed functionality and
entirely bug free" sounds like quite optimistic vision.
Michal
Michał Dwużnik
>>> The degree symbol (Compose-o-o) ° is there, too, as well as one glyph
>>> 1/n fractions ½⅓¼⅕⅙⅛ (1/7 and 1/9 is not there, but some others like 3/4
>>> ¾, 3/8 ⅜ or 5/8 ⅝ are). Some other stuff like division sign ÷ (guess
>>> what - composed - and :) is also there. More business related glyphs
>>> are also easy to get ( c| L- Y- becoming ¢ £ ¥ currency symbols, TM
>>> becoming the correct trademark ™ and co becoming nicely ©, the copyright
>>> sign). Complete list of Polish ones is also available through Compose:
>>> ąćęłńóśżźĄĆĘŁŃÓŚŻŹ.
>> so we can see what happens when GG quotes it. All the non-US-ASCII
>> glyphs in the post above appear to render correctly in GG. I'll check
>> in xnews as well.
>>
>
> message correctly. This is odd, since I'm sure it did when I checked a
> few days ago. I'm not going to repost from there, since that is on a
> separate, private account.
>
Despite that, you managed to quote all the stuff correctly once again.
So much for "If I can't see nor understand the characters, the quote
will be mangled"...
Michal
Mike Ash
Micha©© Dwu˝nik
wrote:
> David DeLaney wrote:
> > David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
> >> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >>> I can do the high-ASCII things like 1⁄2, ®, ¥, and all the accented
> >>> vowels just
> >>> fine, either quoted in someone else's text or entered in my own, but
> >>> nothing
> >>> beyond that....r
> >> And I can see those _correctly_ as the 1/2, (R), \-Y characters in the
> >> post I'm
> >> replying to AND in the editor while I'm composing this. (Which means that
> >> cries
> >> of 'your editor/newsreader can't handle anything but ASCII, stop bothering
> >> us'
> >> will be mocked with vigor.) But they'll _probably_, based on past
> >> experience,
> >> look like something else entirely to me, once this followup is posted.
> >
> > Oh, now this is new in my experience - they're staying consistent.
> >
> 1⁄2 and ¥ as well as £ and many other glyphs are parts of the barest
> possible 8bit ASCII. Destroying that is quite an achievement itself...
"8bit ASCII" is an oxymoron. ASCII is 7-bit by definition, as it is a
character set which only defines characters for the values 0-127.
Virtually every system currently in use on the internet uses ASCII, but
everything in the range of 128-255 (what you might call 8-bit
characters, and which is where characters such as ¥ and £ must live,
because ASCII does not include them) is non-ASCII and therefore subject
to potential manglement. There's nothing surprising about seeing ¥ get
mangled, any more than seeing a bunch of Chinese get mangled when read
by a system that doesn't understand GB 2312.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
Michał Dwużnik
"Extended ASCII" is still ASCII :>
> Virtually every system currently in use on the internet uses ASCII, but
> everything in the range of 128-255 (what you might call 8-bit
> characters, and which is where characters such as ¥ and £ must live,
> because ASCII does not include them) is non-ASCII and therefore subject
> to potential manglement. There's nothing surprising about seeing ¥ get
> mangled, any more than seeing a bunch of Chinese get mangled when read
> by a system that doesn't understand GB 2312.
>
See the originating post "high end ASCII" is just as incorrect as it is
widely used.
Michal
Wayne Throop
: Are you _allowed_ to install binaries, locally? Then you could download
Or don't install... plug in ubuntu-onna-stick and reboot the machine.
Of course... that doesn't work well if you aren't allowed to reboot.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
cryptoguy
The post to which you are responding was sent from GG. The account I
use with xnews is kept separate from my GG persona, and I won't post
to here from there.
pt
Michał Dwużnik
> : netcat <net...@devnull.eridani.eol.ee>
> : Are you _allowed_ to install binaries, locally? Then you could download
> : something suitable somewhere else and bring it in on a flash stick.
>
> Or don't install... plug in ubuntu-onna-stick and reboot the machine.
> Of course... that doesn't work well if you aren't allowed to reboot.
>
booting the USB stick when not allowed to.
Michal
[1]Reaching either reset, power button, or any part of the power supply
chain is possible in most cases. Effectively 'blowing' the main fuse in
the building and turning power back on is rebooting.
Michał Dwużnik
>>> Xnews unfortunately, does NOT show the non-US-ASCII characters in this
>>> message correctly. This is odd, since I'm sure it did when I checked a
>>> few days ago. I'm not going to repost from there, since that is on a
>>> separate, private account.
>> Despite that, you managed to quote all the stuff correctly once again.
>> So much for "If I can't see nor understand the characters, the quote
>> will be mangled"...
>>
>
> use with xnews is kept separate from my GG persona, and I won't post
> to here from there.
>
properly.
Michal
Szymon Sokół
Technically, it is not ASCII, but ISO-8859-1. And so say David's headers.
ASCII < ISO-8859-1 < UTF-8.
--
Szymon Sokół (SS316-RIPE) -- Network Manager B
Computer Center, AGH - University of Science and Technology, Cracow, Poland O
http://home.agh.edu.pl/szymon/ PGP key id: RSA: 0x2ABE016B, DSS: 0xF9289982 F
Free speech includes the right not to listen, if not interested -- Heinlein H
Michał Dwużnik
> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:23:36 +0100,
> michal[dot]dwuznik[at]cern[dot]c...@think.a.bit.before.replying wrote:
>
>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>> David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>>>> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>>> I can do the high-ASCII things like ½, ®, ¥, and all the accented vowels just
>>>>> fine, either quoted in someone else's text or entered in my own, but nothing
>>>>> beyond that....r
>>>> And I can see those _correctly_ as the 1/2, (R), \-Y characters in the post I'm
>>>> replying to AND in the editor while I'm composing this. (Which means that cries
>>>> of 'your editor/newsreader can't handle anything but ASCII, stop bothering us'
>>>> will be mocked with vigor.) But they'll _probably_, based on past experience,
>>>> look like something else entirely to me, once this followup is posted.
>>> Oh, now this is new in my experience - they're staying consistent.
>>>
>> ½ and ¥ as well as £ and many other glyphs are parts of the barest
>> possible 8bit ASCII. Destroying that is quite an achievement itself...
>
> Technically, it is not ASCII, but ISO-8859-1. And so say David's headers.
> ASCII < ISO-8859-1 < UTF-8.
>
high-ASCII things like ½, ®, ¥" here. It is/was the most common of ASCII
extensions and is often just called "Extended ASCII" without taking care
there are much more extended sets. _OF_COURSE_ the American extension is
The One, don't you realize that?
Michal
David DeLaney
?? "ASCII includes definitions for 128 characters: 33 are non-printing control
characters (now mostly obsolete) that affect how text and space is
processed;[6] 94 are printable characters, and the space is considered an
invisible graphic.[7] ". Are you looking at some 256-character extension of
ASCII?
(And I note that YOUR editor finally messed up the symbols R H Draney was
using - though the extent of it so far seems only to have been including an
A-with-^ in front of each one.)
David DeLaney
>Virtually every system currently in use on the internet uses ASCII, but
>everything in the range of 128-255 (what you might call 8-bit
>characters, and which is where characters such as ¥ and £ must live,
>because ASCII does not include them) is non-ASCII and therefore subject
>to potential manglement. There's nothing surprising about seeing ¥ get
>mangled, any more than seeing a bunch of Chinese get mangled when read
>by a system that doesn't understand GB 2312.
And the main reason for this is that different systems/editors/character
sets have filled in that second 128 characters in -different ways-, and
there's nothing out there MANDATING that any system that uses the regular
set of 128 ASCII characters MUST use a specific one of those higher-bit
sets. So going between systems, etc., can change the character displayed
by "This is coded for by the number 196"... as well as adding or messing
with codes intended to say "The following character is in high-bit ASCII
rather than regular ASCII". As I understand things, anyway.