TROLLS ; new urban legend of their own?
Mandy
I'm new to this newsgroup, but don't worry, I'm not about to flood your
group with a thousand Urban legends you've probably already heard, in one
way or another, posted by newbies semi weekly?
Usenet is recently plagued with a new breed of pests, the TROLLS. Contrary
to a post I just read, I have yet to see a real Troll post on this newsgroup
: they're bored people with far too much spare time who cross post spam to
over 25 newsgropus at a time. For an example, ytake a look at alt.tv.friends
and alt.tv.dawsons-creek , who are continually cross posted, up to 100
messages daily, with fan wrestling newsgropus and newsgropus discussing
necrophilia, by a troll calling him/herself "Cypher". Cypher is
particularily nasty because of posting to cartoon related/children
newsgropus, and for changing his identity so one can't filter.
What these trolls are doing lately is flooding the newsgropus with SPAM
until the group collectively "become followers of the troll" or submit to
the troll. I wonder where the origins of this practice are? Too many bored
adolescent boys :)? The term "troll " itself portrays a fairy tale like
image -- remember the troll at the bridge in some grimm brother tale?
Some of the self proclaimed Urban legends Buffs in this newsgroup seem to
become so upset when a well intentioned yet full of Spam post occurs. Is it
that aggravating to see a post, say "read that" and skip through ? Believe
me, a few spam posts by people who are genuinely interested by the subject
of urban legends and not so interested in the rules is a refreshing change,
beware the real trolls : )
mandy --
Who wouldn't cross a bridge if she spotted a Usenet Troll.
."
David DeLaney
>Hello everyone,
> I'm new to this newsgroup,
Uh-_huh_.
>but don't worry, I'm not about to flood your
>group with a thousand Urban legends you've probably already heard, in one
>way or another, posted by newbies semi weekly?
Are you asking we or telling we?
>Usenet is recently plagued with a new breed of pests, the TROLLS.
Yep. They'll be gone before September ends, though. I have that on good
authority.
>Contrary
>to a post I just read, I have yet to see a real Troll post on this newsgroup
Dear dear.
>: they're bored people with far too much spare time who cross post spam to
>over 25 newsgropus at a time.
No; no, I'd say real trolling was quite different.
>For an example, ytake a look at alt.tv.friends
>and alt.tv.dawsons-creek , who are continually cross posted, up to 100
>messages daily, with fan wrestling newsgropus and newsgropus discussing
>necrophilia, by a troll calling him/herself "Cypher". Cypher is
>particularily nasty because of posting to cartoon related/children
>newsgropus, and for changing his identity so one can't filter.
Rob Cypher's not trolling. Rob's disrupting, pure and simple. [And as far
as I can tell, a simple
/Rob Cypher/a:j
line in your rn or trn killfile gets rid of his posts completely, since he
never changes his .signature, as does the more useful
/^.*,.*,.*,.*,.*,/h:j
line...]
>What these trolls are doing lately is flooding the newsgropus with SPAM
>until the group collectively "become followers of the troll" or submit to
>the troll.
Um-hm. [scribble scribble]
>Some of the self proclaimed Urban legends Buffs in this newsgroup seem to
>become so upset when a well intentioned yet full of Spam post occurs.
Technically it's sort of hard for one post to be "full of Spam". I _have_
seen it happen, but usually on news.admin.net-abuse.* .
>Is it that aggravating to see a post, say "read that" and skip through?
Depends. Is it that aggravating to pay tens or hundreds of pounds more per
month for downloading all sorts of posts you didn't want to read in the
first place? [TWIAVBP, you know.]
>mandy --
>Who wouldn't cross a bridge if she spotted a Usenet Troll.
Dave "Oh, and I believe you've misspelt your name, there" DeLaney
PS: Y,IHBT. IHL. IHAND. GBTBOA.
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://panacea.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ/ I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Bob Hiebert, Jr.
Mandy wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
Hi.
> I'm new to this newsgroup,
No shit.
> Usenet is recently plagued with a new breed of pests, the TROLLS.
Nothing recent about it. Its just the quantity that is so astounding
these days.
> For an example, ytake a look at alt.tv.friends
> and alt.tv.dawsons-creek , who are continually cross posted, up to 100
> messages daily,
Have you done a daily count of the messages on this group? And it's not
a bunch of short quips that you can blast through. If you want that,
may I suggest alt.folklore.ghost-stories. There is a fair amount of
thought in many of AFUs messages. It takes time to wade through 250 AFU
posts per day to find the 100 that are readible. Some people just give
up, and that sucks.
> Believe
> me, a few spam posts by people who are genuinely interested by the subject
> of urban legends and not so interested in the rules is a refreshing change,
> beware the real trolls : )
Geez, you are new to this group.
> mandy --
> Who wouldn't cross a bridge if she spotted a Usenet Troll.
This whole post is probably a troll, but I hate to think that some
newbie might actually believe the crap you wrote. If you read every
post to AFU for the next 12 months, and can still make the claims you
make, you will be the first person ever to still have tolerance for
crossposted trolls. I think the bastards ought to be drawn and
quartered.
Bob Hiebert
Andy Walton
<arob...@calumet.yorku.ca> wrote:
:Usenet is recently plagued with a new breed of pests, the TROLLS. Contrary
:to a post I just read, I have yet to see a real Troll post on this newsgroup
:: they're bored people with far too much spare time who cross post spam to
:over 25 newsgropus at a time.
Nope. A troll can be posted to only one newsgroup. A troll is a post
carefuly (or ham-handedly) calculated to draw angry responses. A crude but
common example would be posting "Dawson's Creek sux" to
alt.tv.dawsons-creek.
:The term "troll " itself portrays a fairy tale like
:image -- remember the troll at the bridge in some grimm brother tale?
The Billy Goats Gruff, and, no, that's not the origin. Trolling is a form
of fishing, conducted by dragging a line behind a slow-moving boat. Its
popular usage is much wider -- a group of young men may be heard to say
they're going "trolling for chicks." The implication is that it's lazy and
not particularly sporting.
:Some of the self proclaimed Urban legends Buffs in this newsgroup seem to
:become so upset when a well intentioned yet full of Spam post occurs.
Most of the regulars offer gentle correction for the newbie who crossposts
too widely, etc.; the problems arise when the newbie mistakes advice on
netiquete for coercion or CENSORSHIP. Those rules generally exist for
reasons that become abundantly clear once you've been here a while.
:Is it that aggravating to see a post, say "read that" and skip through ?
It's that annoying to see off-topic, covered-in-the-FAQ, anti-semitic, or
other inappropriate posts proliferate until they're 75%-85% of the group's
volume, yes. It's that annoying, when you're used to digging into a rich
vein of intelligent discussion, to find that you're now panning a
tapped-out and flood-swollen stream.
--
"The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
-- Humphrey Bogart
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Walton * att...@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
David DeLaney
>Nope. A troll can be posted to only one newsgroup.
Not true, actually.
>A troll is a post
>carefuly (or ham-handedly) calculated to draw angry responses.
Not true either. That's flamebait. A troll is merely carefully calculated
to draw responses ... while making it obvious that the poster _did_ know
whatever facts he or she had deliberately distorted that wee bit. It's meant
to catch those who hit the reply key before they finish thinking about
the post...
Dave "plus which _good_ trolls contain at least a little humor, for leavening"
DeLaney
H Gilmer
: att...@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) writes:
: >Nope. A troll can be posted to only one newsgroup.
: Not true, actually.
Ooh! Syntactic ambiguity! Ooh! Ooh! Are you saying that trolls
*must* be posted to more than one newsgroup, or that the *can* be
posted to more than one newsgroup?
Hg
Ooh!
kcy...@usa.net
"Mandy" <arob...@calumet.yorku.ca> wrote:
>
[snip]
> necrophilia, by a troll calling him/herself "Cypher". Cypher is
> particularily nasty because of posting to cartoon related/children
> newsgropus, and for changing his identity so one can't filter.
>
[snip]
>
> mandy --
> Who wouldn't cross a bridge if she spotted a Usenet Troll.
>
Yes, but would you burn that bridge?
Kurt "never been a troll in my life" Cypher
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
H.W.M.
> Usenet is recently plagued with a new breed of pests, the TROLLS.
You would not know one even if it shat on your face.
Just as a sound card produces sound by interpreting bits of
information, the WebSmell (TM) translates information into smells.
Smells can be coded into an alphanumeric string and transmitted
across computerlines. The alphanumeric code for horseshit looks like:
> Believe me, a few spam posts by people who are genuinely interested by the subject
> of urban legends and not so interested in the rules is a refreshing change,
> beware the real trolls : )
--
Cheers,| The darkness must go down the river of night's dreaming.|
HWM | Flow morphia slow, let the sun and light come streaming.|
==> hen...@GNWmail.com & http://www.softavenue.fi/u/henry.w
Ray Depew
> I'm new to this newsgroup, but don't worry,
[...]
No worries here.
> Usenet is recently plagued with a new breed of pests, the TROLLS.
Actually, trolls have been around for a long, long time (on Usenet,
that is). However, the canonical(?) definition of a troll varies
considerably from the definition alluded to in your posting:
> Contrary
> to a post I just read, I have yet to see a real Troll post on this newsgroup
> : they're bored people with far too much spare time who cross post spam to
> over 25 newsgropus at a time.
Although I will sadly mutter about the good old days at the
redefinition of the word "troll" as applied to Usenet, I presume I
have no choice but to accept the redefinition--
HOWEVER, if the redefinition is coming from groups like alt.tv.friends
and alt.tv.dawsons-creek, then I'm willing to fight it.
alt.tv.*anything* is ephemeral, compared to alt.folklore.urban. What's
happening on a.t.fr and a.t.d-c is not "trolling", it's just willful
destructive behavior. Real(tm) trolling is different.
Long after "Friends" and "Dawson's Creek" have gone into syndication on
the USA network, alt.folklore.urban will still be around, and with
the Usenet gods' blessing, it will still be a fertile ground for
Real(tm) trolls, not the adolescent behavior that is currently plaguing
a.t.fr and a.t.d-c.
Regards
Ray
Bruce Tindall
>Or, a troll can be a carefully crafted personna
>>Dave "plus which _good_ trolls contain at least a little humor, for leavening"
>
I'm afraid this is a losing battle, since "language is a living
thing and is always changing" (usually for the worse), but
originally (and still, in my usage, at least) a troll is *not*
a person, nor a persona, but a Usenet article. To post a
troll is "to troll"; the person who posts it is a "troller"
who is engaged in the act of "trolling". See Dave DeLaney's
internym above for the (in my opinion) correct usage of "troll":
it's the *article* that contains humor, not the person who
wrote it.
Unfortunately many people who don't understand the origin of
the term and think it has to do with Norwegian leprechauns
-- and, even more unfortunately, many people who *do* understand
-- have begun referring to the *person* as a "troll". I wish
they wouldn't, because it obscures the original, very specific
and very useful meaning of the word. But they will anyway.
O tempora, o furrfu.
--
Bruce Tindall :: tin...@panix.com
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> What these trolls are doing lately is flooding the newsgropus with SPAM
> until the group collectively "become followers of the troll" or submit to
> the troll. I wonder where the origins of this practice are? Too many bored
> adolescent boys :)?
Your use of punctuation has me so confused that I have trouble following
the message you are trying to deliver. You use a colon (:), which usually
means a formal introduction after which the reader should expect to find
an explanation, example, or restatement, and yet nothing follows the
colon. And then you follow the colon with a close parenthesis sign, and
yet when I look earlier in the sentence or paragraph I cannot find the
open parenthesis sign which should preceed it. Please explain.
Charles Wm. Dimmick
Rich Lafferty
>Hello everyone,
>
>group with a thousand Urban legends you've probably already heard, in one
>way or another, posted by newbies semi weekly?
>
[origin of "troll", and other squirmy juicy worms, snipped]
>beware the real trolls : )
One of the best I've seen in ages, Mandy. Well done.
-Rich "they'll help you with those hooks right down the hall" L.
--
Rich Lafferty ---------------------------------------------------------
IITS/Computing Services | "Oderint dum metuant."
Concordia University | -- Lucius Accius (170-90 BC).
ri...@vax2.concordia.ca -----------------------------------------[McQ]--
Andy Walton
DeLaney) wrote:
:att...@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) writes:
:>Nope. A troll can be posted to only one newsgroup.
:
:Not true, actually.
I'm afraid I was not sufficiently clear. A post to only one newsgroup can
nonetheless be a troll. A troll can be posted to one newsgroup, or to
many. I did not mean the above to be a restrictive definition.
:>A troll is a post
:>carefuly (or ham-handedly) calculated to draw angry responses.
:
:Not true either. That's flamebait. A troll is merely carefully calculated
:to draw responses ... while making it obvious that the poster _did_ know
:whatever facts he or she had deliberately distorted that wee bit.
I think that's a bit of revisionist etymology calculated to make trolls
seem somehow more noble. In common usage, troll and flamebait are
near-synonyms. GOOD trolls meet the criteria you describe. Some trolls
that were once fairly sublime -- the canonical "Kirk's middle name," for
example -- have lost all sporting value as the general clue factor of
Usenet has dropped.
:It's meant
:to catch those who hit the reply key before they finish thinking about
:the post...
That definition applies to skillful trolls; clumsy trolls do not care a
whit about before or after, and assume that the reader will never think
about the post before hitting the reply key. Sadly, they are more often
right than wrong.
:Dave "plus which _good_ trolls contain at least a little humor, for
:leavening" DeLaney
Good trolls are somewhat rarer than hen's teeth, these days. If I've
bitten into one, my palette is so numbed that the taste of the hook is a
deliacacy. Insert legend about fugu here.
walt
pertains to Usenet is based on a method of fishing. The troller drags
a line baited with outrageous opinions calculated to inflame readers
and draw them into a long drawn out and hopefully nasty debate. I
don't think the term has anything to do with those hairy guys that
hang out under bridges and wait for billy goats.
Waltb
Raleigh, NC
Dr H
Perhaps I can help, Charles. That particular combination of
characters is known as a "smiley," from its resemblance, when viewed
from the side, to a stylized smiling face. It is one of a larger
category of such symbols known as "emoticons," which are often used
in Usenet posts as a typographical substitute for facial expression and
body language.
After you've been around for a while, you'll pick up on them, or
I can direct you to any of several FAQs on the topic.
Always glad to be helpful,
Dr H
Ray Depew
>
> Actually, I believe that the origin of the term "trolling" as it
> pertains to Usenet is based on a method of fishing. The troller drags
> a line baited with outrageous opinions calculated to inflame readers
> and draw them into a long drawn out and hopefully nasty debate.
Very close. The goal is not necessarily to "draw them into a long
drawn out and hopefully nasty debate". That was the outcome of the
Great Canadian Troll Wars of 1994 (94? 95?), but that started with a
massively crossposted troll, which is no more sporting than fishing
with dynamite.
The goal of the most artfully crafted trolls is to elicit a single
response from a NetLegend, or multiple responses (but only one layer
deep) from a large number of self-professed experts. The elementary
example is the "James T. Kirk" troll. With the JTK troll, the troller
says "Kirk's middle name was 'Tyrone'" and gets multiple responses
saying "No, it was ..." whatever it really was. No follow-ups are
necessary, because the fish are lying right there, flopping around on
the banks for all the world to see.
A troll can be a one-liner, or it can be hidden deep in an otherwise
sound posting (such as a review of "Total Recall" mentioning that "great
Australian actor, Ahnold"). Most trolls are somehow tagged, so that the
observant reader will realize something is up before they chomp down
on the hook. On AFU, putting the word "troll" (or "Phil Gustafson's
charred body still in its wetsuit") in the Keywords line was an adequate
signal. Hiding a clue in plain sight is also common. Someone on AFU
recently hid the word "METATROLL" in the body of his message, and won a
gold medal for it.
Too much trolling can hurt a newsgroup. Fads are never cool. But real,
true trolling, not like the stuff that is being reported on alt.tv.*, is
a fun sport, for participants and spectators alike, when done
tastefully and in moderation.
Regards
Ray
p.s. Oh yeah, about the "James T. Kirk" troll: It's really lame to do
that to any of the Star Trek groups. It's better to pull it on an
unrelated group, like alt.folklore.urban, comp.sys.hp48, or
rec.pets.wallabies. Also, it's been done ad nauseum. The JTK troll is
worn out.
Lee Rudolph
>The elementary
>example is the "James T. Kirk" troll. With the JTK troll, the troller
>says "Kirk's middle name was 'Tyrone'" and gets multiple responses
>saying "No, it was ..." whatever it really was.
Technetium.
Lee "we are the Seaborg" Rudolph
Tony Sweeney
> Actually, I believe that the origin of the term "trolling" as it
> pertains to Usenet is based on a method of fishing. The troller drags
> a line baited with outrageous opinions calculated to inflame readers
> and draw them into a long drawn out and hopefully nasty debate. I
> don't think the term has anything to do with those hairy guys that
> hang out under bridges and wait for billy goats.
In its earliest days, it was always "trolling for newbies", in imitation
of a long article from the rec.autos hierarchy called "trolling for
taillights" which came out in about May of '92 -- this article is
available in many places on the net, including at the link below:
http://www.chelmsford.com/home/random/hum009.htm
When I first saw it, it carried original attributions, but these may have
been lost over time.
Tony.
Allover Stripes
> Mandy wrote:
<snip>
> > Usenet is recently plagued with a new breed of pests, the TROLLS.
>
> Actually, trolls have been around for a long, long time (on Usenet,
> that is). However, the canonical(?) definition of a troll varies
> considerably from the definition alluded to in your posting:
Interestingly, according to my handy on-line dic:
#From Jargon File (4.0.0/24 July 1996) [jargon]:
#
# troll /v.,n./ [From the Usenet group
# alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet
# designed to attract predictable responses or flames. Derives
# from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes
# from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one
# trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The
# well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and
# flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they
# already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and
# experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't
# fall for the joke, you get to be in on it.
#
# Some people claim that the troll is properly a narrower category
# than flame bait, that a troll is categorized by containing
# some assertion that is wrong but not overtly controversial.
> > Contrary
> > to a post I just read, I have yet to see a real Troll post on this newsgroup
> > : they're bored people with far too much spare time who cross post spam to
> > over 25 newsgropus at a time.
This would be what we call "horizontal spam". "Vertical spam" would
be slightly different spam lots of time to the same newsgroup.
Trolling is a whole different story. To see the distinction, you
might want to look at, say "Archimedes Pl*tonium" over in sci.*. E
clearly believes what e is saying, but it's so unlikely that e gets
lots of people attempting to argue with em. I'd call this flamebait,
but not trolling. On the other hand, anything that looks vaguely
trollish is a good candidate for a troll in alt.folklore.urban, since
there are many people eager to post to the fifteen newsgroups the post
was to to announce "ha ha, I'm so smart, this is a troll!".
Unfortunately, it's awkward to screen out trolls, and they use up
loads of bandwidth.
> Although I will sadly mutter about the good old days at the
> redefinition of the word "troll" as applied to Usenet, I presume I
> have no choice but to accept the redefinition--
>
> HOWEVER, if the redefinition is coming from groups like alt.tv.friends
> and alt.tv.dawsons-creek, then I'm willing to fight it.
> alt.tv.*anything* is ephemeral, compared to alt.folklore.urban. What's
> happening on a.t.fr and a.t.d-c is not "trolling", it's just willful
> destructive behavior. Real(tm) trolling is different.
Note the origin. "mandy"'s telling the wrong people what a troll is.
(Note I'm not one of those people; I'm a recent Usenaut).
> Long after "Friends" and "Dawson's Creek" have gone into syndication on
> the USA network, alt.folklore.urban will still be around, and with
> the Usenet gods' blessing, it will still be a fertile ground for
> Real(tm) trolls, not the adolescent behavior that is currently plaguing
> a.t.fr and a.t.d-c.
I feel an urge to make some comment about "adolescent" and "Dawson's
creek" but it seems too obvious. Fortunately I have banished the
demon box[1] from my life, so I know little of these shows.
> Regards
> Ray
Andrew "*I* was never that age" Archibald
[1] See "Tom the Dancing Bug" (http://www.tomthedancingbug.com/),
"Flowers for Trinitron"[2]. It's posted on my kitchen door.
[2]Reference to a short story (Daniel Keyes), "Flowers for Algernon".
Derek Tearne
<swe...@informix.com> wrote:
>
>In its earliest days, it was always "trolling for newbies", in imitation
>of a long article from the rec.autos hierarchy called "trolling for
>taillights" which came out in about May of '92 -- this article is
>available in many places on the net, including at the link below:
Trolling for taillights, that takes me back.
The just don't have threads like that any more.
Having said that, I'd already fallen for the "POSH" troll before that
particular thread took place, although I'm not sure if the term was
being used in that particular fashion. I am sure that I encountered
the trolling for taillights thread and the term 'trolling' referring
to angling for self-righteous corrections to obviously intentional
misteaks at about the same time.
Derek "the old days are so long ago now" Tearne
--
Derek Tearne. --- @URL Internet Consultants --- http://url.co.nz/
Madeleine Page
: On the other hand, anything that looks vaguely
: trollish is a good candidate for a troll in alt.folklore.urban, since
: there are many people eager to post to the fifteen newsgroups the post
: was to to announce "ha ha, I'm so smart, this is a troll!".
: Unfortunately, it's awkward to screen out trolls, and they use up
: loads of bandwidth.
Yup. Time to roll out my favourite troll definition, from one
Ka...@carterce.demon.co.uk:
>What happens is that someone acts like an arsehole, gets treated like an
>arsehole and then says ha ha I was only pretending to be an arsehole.
>Which pretty much defines them as an arsehole in the first place.
Sort of sums it up for me.
: Fortunately I have banished the demon box[1] from my life
Oooh. Can we keep him? Even though he's allover spots?
Madeleine "wise words *and* no Buffy references" Page
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Charles Wm. Dimmick wrote:
> }Mandy wrote:
> }> or submit to
> }> the troll. I wonder where the origins of this practice are? Too many bored
> }> adolescent boys :)?
> }
> }Your use of punctuation has me so confused that I have trouble following
> }the message you are trying to deliver. You use a colon (:), which usually
> }means a formal introduction after which the reader should expect to find
> }an explanation, example, or restatement, and yet nothing follows the
> }colon. And then you follow the colon with a close parenthesis sign, and
> }yet when I look earlier in the sentence or paragraph I cannot find the
> }open parenthesis sign which should preceed it. Please explain.
>
> Perhaps I can help, Charles. That particular combination of
> characters is known as a "smiley,"
Just my luck. Go trolling for a large-mouth bass and catch a sewer shark.
Charles
Dr H
On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Charles Wm. Dimmick wrote:
}Just my luck. Go trolling for a large-mouth bass and catch a sewer shark.
Alligator.
Dr H
David Hatunen
large-mouth sewer shark...
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@sonic.net) ***********
* Daly City California: *
* where San Francisco meets The Peninsula *
******* and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea *******
Tommy the Sewergator
>On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Charles Wm. Dimmick wrote:
>}Just my luck. Go trolling for a large-mouth bass and catch a sewer shark.
> Alligator.
Don't ya wish. Cheez, everbody wants ta be a sewergator these days.
Tommy "can't blame em" the Sewergator
H.W.M.
> Alligator.
You mislept 'agitator'
Mandy
Its seems my small habit "smiley" has created more conversation than the
original post. Never have I seen a newsgroup so stuck on punctuation, and a
rabid dislike for the smiley.
First I'm accused of being too young to participate in the newsgroup,
ridiculed for not reading the FAQ (which I did, actually, didn't notice the
mention of the dislike for symbols)
Well, :) to all of you. I use, and will continue to use this symbol as a
sign when I'm joking, because in a communication medium where intonation,
or interpretation, can be confused easily, its a great little symbol to keep
the flames to a minimum. Actually, it did just the opposite here, but there
are exceptions to everything.
mandy -
:)
Charles Wm. Dimmick wrote in message <36DEF140...@ccsu.edu>...
>Dr H wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Charles Wm. Dimmick wrote:
>> }Mandy wrote:
>> }> or submit to
>> }> the troll. I wonder where the origins of this practice are? Too many
bored
>> }> adolescent boys :)?
>> }
>> }Your use of punctuation has me so confused that I have trouble following
>> }the message you are trying to deliver. You use a colon (:), which
usually
>> }means a formal introduction after which the reader should expect to
find
>> }an explanation, example, or restatement, and yet nothing follows the
>> }colon. And then you follow the colon with a close parenthesis sign, and
>> }yet when I look earlier in the sentence or paragraph I cannot find the
>> }open parenthesis sign which should preceed it. Please explain.
>>
>> Perhaps I can help, Charles. That particular combination of
>> characters is known as a "smiley,"
>
>Just my luck. Go trolling for a large-mouth bass and catch a sewer shark.
>
>Charles
>
RM Mentock
<snip>
> First I'm accused of being too young to participate in the newsgroup,
> ridiculed for not reading the FAQ (which I did, actually, didn't notice the
> mention of the dislike for symbols)
Youth has nothing to do with it. You're only as young as you think.
> Well, :) to all of you. I use, and will continue to use this symbol as a
> sign when I'm joking, because in a communication medium where intonation,
> or interpretation, can be confused easily, its a great little symbol to keep
> the flames to a minimum. Actually, it did just the opposite here, but
ya coulda stopped there.
> there are exceptions to everything.
Wise words from one so young.
--
D.
Teratologist -- men...@mindspring.com
http://sentient.home.mindspring.com/dan/
Bruce Tindall
>Well, :) to all of you. I use, and will continue to use this symbol as a
>sign when I'm joking, because in a communication medium where intonation,
>or interpretation, can be confused easily, its a great little symbol to keep
>the flames to a minimum.
I think you misspelled "...because in a communications medium
called 'writing', which predates Usenet by thousands of years,
people have figured out ways to express irony or sarcasm without
the use of smileys -- see, e.g., Mark Twain's 'The War Prayer'
or Swift's 'A Modest Proposal' -- but I can't be bothered to go
to all the trouble of doing that, so I'll resort to the written
equivalent of nudging you in the ribs and saying 'get it? get it?'."
B "in other words, emulate Steven Wright, not Dave Barry --
I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP, get it? get it? <rimshot> :-)" T
--
Bruce Tindall :: tin...@panix.com
H.W.M.
> Well, :) to all of you. I use, and will continue to use this symbol as a
> sign when I'm joking, because in a communication medium where intonation,
> or interpretation, can be confused easily, its a great little symbol to keep
> the flames to a minimum. Actually, it did just the opposite here, but there
> are exceptions to everything.
I beg your pardon, I think you are making quite a contradictive
statement there.Just to make sure you understand what I mean I
*insist* on coming lay a royal turd on your doorstep, then knock on
the door and complain because the Excalibur is coarse and I *insist*
on wiping on pink three-ply.
David Mertz
|I think you misspelled "...because in a communications medium
|called 'writing', which predates Usenet by thousands of years,
|people have figured out ways to express irony or sarcasm without
You know what REALLY bugs me though It is this new-fangled introduction
of punctuation symbols into writing they distract from the words and
focus ones attention on silly little marks on the page
if the works of plato aristotle cicero and even the good bible itself did
not need punctuation symbols why should usenet posts need them damn
modern corruptions for thousands of years we managed without this
abomination why ruin a good thing
Yours Lulu internym goes here of the Lotus Eaters
--
quilty | The specter of free information is haunting the `Net! All the
@ibm. | powers of IP- and crypto-tyrrany have entered into an unholy
net | alliance...ideas have nothing to lose but their chains. Unite
| against "intellectual property" and anti-privacy regimes!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Mertz
Brian Yeoh
> Woops --
> Its seems my small habit "smiley" has created more conversation than the
> original post. Never have I seen a newsgroup so stuck on punctuation, and a
> rabid dislike for the smiley.
<blah blah blah>
Why do they all come up with the same excuse? Can someone with more
experience tell me?
"I wanna do it, mommy, I wanna, I WANNA!"
Is this a North American thing?
Have I just set a cat among the pidgeons?
Brian "trolling, trolling, trolling on the Hudson" Yeoh
"They lied to you. The Devil is not the Prince of Matter; the Devil is
the arrogance of the spirit, faith without smile, truth that is never
seized by doubt. The Devil is grim because he knows where he is going,
and, in moving, he always returns whence he came."
-- Umberto Eco, "The Name of the Rose"
Jeremy Burgeson
>"I wanna do it, mommy, I wanna, I WANNA!"
>
>Is this a North American thing?
No, in this case I believe it was imported to North America.
Typical, "We're right, and we'll show those (whatever)less
bastards what to do."
Selling shit for gold. I was born in North America, lived
here all my life and have a very healthy respect for different
cultures and sets of sensibilities.
One of the things I hate most is when I see somebody with a
North American name (while I was born here, my name is not
of North American origin) trying to change a viable culture
into an image of what is right and proper.
Believe it or not, somebody has found a way to offend me (no,
not Brian). Brian asked a good question.
Jeremy
Brian Yeoh
> Brian Yeoh <by...@panix.com> wrote:
> >"I wanna do it, mommy, I wanna, I WANNA!"
> >
> >Is this a North American thing?
> No, in this case I believe it was imported to North America.
> Typical, "We're right, and we'll show those (whatever)less
> bastards what to do."
Hmm... that is a reasonable extrapolation into adulthood.
> Selling shit for gold. I was born in North America, lived
> here all my life and have a very healthy respect for different
> cultures and sets of sensibilities.
>
> One of the things I hate most is when I see somebody with a
> North American name (while I was born here, my name is not
> of North American origin) trying to change a viable culture
> into an image of what is right and proper.
>
> Believe it or not, somebody has found a way to offend me (no,
> not Brian). Brian asked a good question.
Trying to mould[1] anything but yourself to your own image is...
Not advisable.
Brian "not much more to add" Yeoh
dr...@panix.com
> Well, :) to all of you. I use, and will continue to use this symbol as a
> sign when I'm joking,
Can I ask you what you think this will accomplish? What do
you think the end result of this action will be?
Andrew
Ninan1
enough.
Emoticons are not permited here. If you want to use them, you may start
alt.Mandy.smiley
Nina "alt.doe-snot's.preferred"
Charles Wm. Dimmick
Somehow I am reminded of a comic strip which appears in my
paper, called "twins". The baby girl strongly resists having her
diaper changed; the mother finally says "OK, have it your way
then"; and in the final panel the girl says something to the effect
of "Well, I've won, but what have I won?".
Charles Wm. Dimmick
Megan Knight
Jeremy Burgeson wrote in message <7bs7tn$ps1$1...@falcon.inetnebr.com>...
><snip>One of the things I hate most is when I see somebody with a
>North American name (while I was born here, my name is not
>of North American origin) <snip>
What, pray tell, is a North American name? Over here, names are fairly easy
to categorise (not that I would dare to try, you realise) , but in NA?
Surely pretty much any name could be North American?
Megan "utterly generic anglo-celtic, not that I've been there" Knight
Bossman
Jeremy wrote,
> One of the things I hate most is when I see somebody with a
> North American name (while I was born here, my name is not
> of North American origin) trying to change a viable culture
> into an image of what is right and proper.
I am sorry if my name change to *Bossman* is an insult to anyone. It
was not my intent to change what I am (or am not) into any image of what
is right an proper.
On the other hand, if it has met with success---what luck. It is about
time the law of unintended consequences worked in my favor.
Michael "50% ethnically impure" Glaser
--
"Errors of haste are seldom committed singly. The first time a man
always does too much. And precisely on that account he commits a second
error, and then he does too little."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Correct return address is mitc...@image-link.com
Hope Munro Smith
<knig...@sabc.co.za> wrote:
>
> What, pray tell, is a North American name? Over here, names are fairly easy
> to categorise (not that I would dare to try, you realise) , but in NA?
> Surely pretty much any name could be North American?
I agree -- anything from Tom Smith to Jose Rodriquez to
Hung Nguyen could be North American!!
Hope "all mixed up" Munro Smith
Sven David Holmans
<dim...@ccsu.edu> writes
>Somehow I am reminded of a comic strip which appears in my
>paper, called "twins". The baby girl strongly resists having her
>diaper changed; the mother finally says "OK, have it your way
>then"; and in the final panel the girl says something to the effect
>of "Well, I've won, but what have I won?".
>
>Charles Wm. Dimmick
Charles,
I wonder if you have forgotten or just omitted the bit where the mother
opens the baby's diaper and finds a lot of smileys in it.
David "still learning the pathe to righteousness" Holmans
--
Sven David Holmans Time and tide wait for no man
Elena Berges
Rodriguez. But Mexicans use to spell names finishing in z with
an s: Rodrigues.
Anyway, an American name should be "Ten Bears"...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Elena Berges Raso "Si non confectus, non reficiat"
azoth (at) stones.com (to reply, convert the address)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
H.W.M.
> Hope Munro Smith wrote:
> > In article <7c0pqj$mht$1...@hermes.is.co.za>, "Megan Knight"
> > > to categorise (not that I would dare to try, you realise) , but in NA?
> > > Surely pretty much any name could be North American?
> > I agree -- anything from Tom Smith to Jose Rodriquez to
> > Hung Nguyen could be North American!!
> Rodriguez. But Mexicans use to spell names finishing in z with
> an s: Rodrigues.
> Anyway, an American name should be "Ten Bears"...
I was sort of surprised, as the original "Jeremy Burgeson" is sounding
enough Anglo-whatever to sound as a probable decendant from a "Remnant
of the Empire" which can be any country colored pink in a map from
1910. A distinctly 'merkin name is a totally different thing, maybe a
'Jeremy Burgeson III' would be a dead giveaway or then a name spelled in
a somewhat unconventional manner... " Yrome Burgeson IV' might be a dead
giveaway... But, as it has been said, you never can tell.
Gerald Belton
>I think you misspelled "...because in a communications medium
>called 'writing', which predates Usenet by thousands of years,
>people have figured out ways to express irony or sarcasm without
>the use of smileys -- see, e.g., Mark Twain's 'The War Prayer'
>or Swift's 'A Modest Proposal' -- but I can't be bothered to go
>to all the trouble of doing that, so I'll resort to the written
>equivalent of nudging you in the ribs and saying 'get it? get it?'."
On the other hand, otherwise literate Americans seem to have lost
their ability to interpret irony. Consider this quote, from a message
posted to this very newsgroup by Steve <such...@pilot.msu.edu> on
March 3:
"They mentioned yesterday on that opening the lost tombs special on
FOX that they used to use mummies as fuel on trains. They even had
some quote or something from Mark Twain saying 'these commoners don't
burn well, throw in a king or queen' or something along those lines."
If the braindead^Hbrilliant producers of Fox specials can't recognize
the joke in "The Innocents Abroad," how can I dare to hope that the
average Usenetter can find the humor in my humble scribblings? Maybe
those big signs with arrows saying "This is a joke" ARE needed....
Gerald "but I hope not" Belton
H.W.M.
> If the braindead^Hbrilliant producers of Fox specials can't recognize
> the joke in "The Innocents Abroad," how can I dare to hope that the
> average Usenetter can find the humor in my humble scribblings? Maybe
> those big signs with arrows saying "This is a joke" ARE needed....
That is because right after mark Twain electricity was introduced. Of
course, in Americas you had to have all kinds of warning lables not to
stick a fork into the plugholes. In Europe, however no warnings were
issued. So the stupid kids fried themselves. In a generation as the
stupidity genes are dominant we can see the difference. < insert the
Ghost of the Giant of Cardiff here >
--
M.J.Powell
>
>Jeremy Burgeson wrote in message <7bs7tn$ps1$1...@falcon.inetnebr.com>...
>
>>North American name (while I was born here, my name is not
>
>
>What, pray tell, is a North American name? Over here, names are fairly easy
>to categorise (not that I would dare to try, you realise) , but in NA?
>Surely pretty much any name could be North American?
Elmer
Hank
Chuck
--
Mike The life that I have
Is all that I have
And the life that I have
Is yours.
Jeremy Burgeson
>Jeremy Burgeson wrote in message <7bs7tn$ps1$1...@falcon.inetnebr.com>...
>>North American name (while I was born here, my name is not
>>of North American origin) <snip>
>What, pray tell, is a North American name? Over here, names are fairly easy
>to categorise (not that I would dare to try, you realise) , but in NA?
>Surely pretty much any name could be North American?
My last name was imported from Sweden along with a person who
used it. In order to be "of North American origin" as I meant
it, a name would have to be used because of local pressures in
North America. Those pressures include a longstanding society
and language based in North America.
Pretty much any name can be used in North America because of
its diverse ethnic background, but not all of those names come
from North America.
Jeremy
Walter Eric Johnson
: Woops --
: Its seems my small habit "smiley" has created more conversation than the
: original post. Never have I seen a newsgroup so stuck on punctuation, and a
: rabid dislike for the smiley.
Are you suggesting that the dislike of smileys is the result of a
lyssavirus?
Eric Johnson
Ben Walsh
>"They mentioned yesterday on that opening the lost tombs special on
>FOX that they used to use mummies as fuel on trains. They even had
>some quote or something from Mark Twain saying 'these commoners don't
>burn well, throw in a king or queen' or something along those lines."
>
>If the braindead^Hbrilliant producers of Fox specials can't recognize
>the joke in "The Innocents Abroad," how can I dare to hope that the
>average Usenetter can find the humor in my humble scribblings? Maybe
>those big signs with arrows saying "This is a joke" ARE needed....
Well, quite. Except that, as far as I know, mummies *were* burnt as fuel.
That doesn't proclude Twain from joking about it, of course. "Damn these
plebians, don't burn worth a cent. Pass out a King!".
A fellow called Dane has written about it, but I don't have the relevant
copy Journal of American Printing History to hand. Charles?
ben "should be next to the piece of unicorn scrimshaw" w.
ben
FrogPrinc9
babbled:
>People use smileys because they know how much you all love an opportunity
>to parade your intellectual superiority. Don't waste it. :)
>
I'm not sure Mandy's name works better for you, Snatchie old chum. Let's see,
where were we...
Toad Stool
Bull Shit
Dr. H. Scratchie
No, those were right out. Ummmm.
Sheep Dip
Cock Roach
Pond Scum
Maggie Jiggs
Frankenstein Igor
Mandy Scuzzy
See what I mean, Snatch, ol' buddy?
Boll Weevil
Chicken Shit
Pecker Head
Butt Plug
Mandy Sneaky.
Nope. I think you better keep seeking a champion whose name will roll more
meaningfully from the lips of thousands.
John "Blithering Idiot" Brown
"Secondly, posting to afu isn't a game of Whack-The-Gullible." Phil Edwards
on alt.folklore.urban
Casady
the American Indian names, and the Anglicized[?] versions there
of,
but, while my last name has been in Des Moines for more than 150
years, and came from Ireland more than a century before that, It
actually was Spanish. All the Casady's are descended from a
sailor
in the Magnificant and Invincable Armada, name of Casad y
xxxxxxxx,
who got 'vinced' by the Royal Navy, and the weather, in 1588,
ended up
shipwrecked in Ireland, stayed, and dropped the second half of
the
name, but not the connection punctuation.. There were three
Casads in the Madrid phone book when I checked in summer of 1970.
There have been Casadys in North America for the best part of
four hundred years, but the name is Spanish [or Irish], whatever.
I remember having an airport beer
with a US Army troop name of 'Shoulder Blade', in 1966, but I
could
not have told you the Dakota name it is a translation of, ten
seconds
after he related it. I was in the USAF, and we both spoke
similar
dialects of military English. We were both flying 'stand up' the
slang for half price military stand-by tickets, had been 'stood
up'
and were getting quietly blitzed while waiting for the next
flight
that might have a seat. He said there were no American names, as
the English ones came from elsewhere, and the Indian ones were
not
in English, the official language. He said that he had nothing
against
anyone just for being white, but that Custer had it coming, and
that
his dumb looking last name was just one reason.
Richard 'is not North American either' Casady
Don
>
> Jeremy Burgeson wrote in message <7bs7tn$ps1$1...@falcon.inetnebr.com>...
>
> >of North American origin) <snip>
>
> What, pray tell, is a North American name?
Tecumseh? Tenskwatawa?
--
Don not a north american name Middendorf.
---------------------------
http://www.seidata.com/~donm/
Dr H
On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, H.W.M. wrote:
}Dr H wrote:
}
}> Alligator.
}
}You mislept 'agitator'
}
Heh, maybe I did at that.
Dr H
Dr H
On 6 Mar 1999, Bruce Tindall wrote:
}Mandy <arob...@calumet.yorku.ca> wrote:
}>Well, :) to all of you. I use, and will continue to use this symbol as a
}>sign when I'm joking, because in a communication medium where intonation,
}>or interpretation, can be confused easily, its a great little symbol to keep
}>the flames to a minimum.
}
}I think you misspelled "...because in a communications medium
}called 'writing', which predates Usenet by thousands of years,
}people have figured out ways to express irony or sarcasm without
}the use of smileys -- see, e.g., Mark Twain's 'The War Prayer'
}or Swift's 'A Modest Proposal' -- but I can't be bothered to go
}to all the trouble of doing that, so I'll resort to the written
}equivalent of nudging you in the ribs and saying 'get it? get it?'."
And of course, everyone here writes with the quality of Twain
and Swift. Always. Pffft! :-P
Dr H
Lizz Holmans
>
>Pretty much any name can be used in North America because of
>its diverse ethnic background, but not all of those names come
>from North America.
Ah, hell, Jeremy, my birth name is Elizabeth (the English version of the
Hebrew Elisheba) Firth (a lowland Scottish name), and Sheldon (an
English place name.
On three sides of my grandparents, I am English (eligible for the DAR,
if I cared, which I don't); they other side is (as my grandfather
described it) Pennsylvania Dutch). But I have names of three ethnicities
in my birth name.
My ancestors have been in America since before 1700. I can't even be a
Hyphenated American.
*But*, the only person I've ever known who had a real, authentic North
American name was a dude I know named Marvin Bear, a full-blooded Creek
Indian.
I think you are being a tad picky on this subject.
Lizz 'But the Irish apparently did not apply, but there is a Venezuelan
hiding in there somewhere' Holmans
--
Visit http://www.urbanlegends.com
Elena Berges
>
> None of them did. Language was not invented here. There are
> the American Indian names, and the Anglicized[?] versions there
> of,
> but, while my last name has been in Des Moines for more than 150
> years, and came from Ireland more than a century before that, It
> actually was Spanish. All the Casady's are descended from a
> sailor
> in the Magnificant and Invincable Armada, name of Casad y
> xxxxxxxx,
> who got 'vinced' by the Royal Navy, and the weather, in 1588,
> ended up
> shipwrecked in Ireland, stayed, and dropped the second half of
> the
> name, but not the connection punctuation.. There were three
> Casads in the Madrid phone book when I checked in summer of 1970.
Maybe it's a variation of "Casals", a common name in Catalonia.
Or else it could be "Casado" ("married"). Anyway, mine could
either be a version of the French Berger (with a grave accent
on second e), meaning "peasant", or the German Berger (no
accents), a mountain dweller. Not Spanish at all...
BTW, in Andalucia there are several people with the name
Japon ("Japan"). They are the descendants of some samurai
warriors that came as a present around the beginning of
the Edo period.
Elena "Ohayo, Pepe-san" Berges
Dr H
On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Scratchie wrote:
}Jeremy Burgeson <a...@inetnebr.com> wrote:
}: Brian Yeoh <by...@panix.com> wrote:
}
}:>"I wanna do it, mommy, I wanna, I WANNA!"
}:>
}:>Is this a North American thing?
}
}: No, in this case I believe it was imported to North America.
}: Typical, "We're right, and we'll show those (whatever)less
}: bastards what to do."
}
}People use smileys because they know how much you all love an opportunity
}to parade your intellectual superiority. Don't waste it. :)
}
Well... I wasn't gonna say, but that's the real reason that *I* use them.
In fact, I started using them just for afu. :-)
Dr H
Dr H
}Scratchie, switching his second banana allegiance to a new smiley defender,
}babbled:
}
}>People use smileys because they know how much you all love an opportunity
}>to parade your intellectual superiority. Don't waste it. :)
}>
}I'm not sure Mandy's name works better for you, Snatchie old chum. Let's see,
}where were we...
}
}Toad Stool
}Bull Shit
}Dr. H. Scratchie
}
}No, those were right out. Ummmm.
[etc...]
Ah such sublime, yet subtle wit. Keeps ME coming back for
more, I tell ya.
Dr H
Dr H
On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, David Mertz wrote:
}tin...@panix.com (Bruce Tindall) wrote previously:
}|I think you misspelled "...because in a communications medium
}|called 'writing', which predates Usenet by thousands of years,
}|people have figured out ways to express irony or sarcasm without
}|the use of smileys...
}
}You know what REALLY bugs me though It is this new-fangled introduction
}of punctuation symbols into writing they distract from the words and
}focus ones attention on silly little marks on the page
}
}if the works of plato aristotle cicero and even the good bible itself did
}not need punctuation symbols why should usenet posts need them damn
}modern corruptions for thousands of years we managed without this
}abomination why ruin a good thing
excellent point personally I dont lik th insistanc som peopl hav of
adding a silent e to th end of many words or capital letters either
keep it up friends and maybe next we can eliminate spacs too
dr h
H.W.M.
> Anyway, mine could
> either be a version of the French Berger (with a grave accent
> on second e), meaning "peasant", or the German Berger (no
> accents), a mountain dweller. Not Spanish at all...
I remember meeting a guy whose last name was Rinne, he said he dared not
go to Germany as it means 'gutter' there. I told him to come to Finland
where the name means 'slope' and is not that uncommon...
Nathan J Nagel
TROLLS .. by Gerald Belton@bellsouth.
> On the other hand, otherwise literate Americans seem to have lost
> their ability to interpret irony. Consider this quote, from a message
> posted to this very newsgroup by Steve <such...@pilot.msu.edu> on
> March 3:
>
> FOX that they used to use mummies as fuel on trains. They even had
> some quote or something from Mark Twain saying 'these commoners don't
> burn well, throw in a king or queen' or something along those lines."
>
> If the braindead^Hbrilliant producers of Fox specials can't recognize
> the joke in "The Innocents Abroad," how can I dare to hope that the
> average Usenetter can find the humor in my humble scribblings? Maybe
> those big signs with arrows saying "This is a joke" ARE needed....
>
>
The whole problem is, sometimes something that would have been funny if
intended ironically might just be the babblings of a brain-dead idiot
who really believes what he's saying. If you don't believe me pop over
to rec.autos.driving (god only knows why I still read it, must be too
much time on my hands)
nate
Nathan Tenny
[on names originating in North America, excluding Native American names]
>None of them did. Language was not invented here.
A few names were invented here, either by their possessors (usually for
political convenience) or by someone who couldn't spell at immigration. As
far as I know, Sieradski is a uniquely North American surname, truncated
down from something longer (and more challenging for Merkins to spell) by
one of my thesis advisor's ancestors.
People have invented their surnames at marriage, too; I think Clarkberg
is a North American name.
And the idea that Native American names aren't American names because they
aren't in English is kind of silly. It's awfully hard to make a case for,
say, Boynton not being an English name, but it's meaningless in English.
NT
--
Nathan Tenny | Words I carry in my pocket, where they
Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA | breed like white mice.
<nten...@qualcomm.com> | - Lawrence Durrell
H Gilmer
: In fact, I started using them just for afu. :-)
The sad thing is I believe you. Why would anyone go out of their way
to be childish?
Hg
Derek Tearne
<hiaw...@efn.org> wrote:
>
> excellent point personally I dont lik th insistanc som peopl hav of
> adding a silent e to th end of many words or capital letters either
> keep it up friends and maybe next we can eliminate spacs too
Binky? Is that you?
--
Derek Tearne. --- @URL Internet Consultants --- http://url.co.nz/
Dr H
C'mon Hg, you should know better than to believe -everything-
you read.
Dr H
Vicki Parslow Stafford
<7c1i0s$rc3$1...@falcon.inetnebr.com>...
> Megan Knight <knig...@sabc.co.za> wrote:
>
> >Jeremy Burgeson wrote in message <7bs7tn$ps1$1...@falcon.inetnebr.com>...
> >>of North American origin) <snip>
>
easy
> >to categorise (not that I would dare to try, you realise) , but in NA?
> >Surely pretty much any name could be North American?
>
> My last name was imported from Sweden along with a person who
> used it. In order to be "of North American origin" as I meant
> it, a name would have to be used because of local pressures in
> North America. Those pressures include a longstanding society
> and language based in North America.
>
> its diverse ethnic background, but not all of those names come
> from North America.
I think I understand what Jeremy is saying. If my admittedly limited
knowledge of North American history is accurate, didn't a lot of immigrants
lose their "ethnic" names, either through Immigration officials
misrecording or reinventing people's names, or through social pressures to
assimilate by adopting an Anglo or western European surname, or giving
their children Anglo given names? And didn't a similar thing happen
historically to a lot of black Americans and Native Americans, who ended up
(by choice or otherwise) with Anglo or western European family names?
Australia has a similar history with its indigenous people and non-Anglo
immigrants.
That, plus changing "fashion" in given names, seems to me, as a
non-American, to have given rise to naming trends which have a distinctly
North American "flavour". As Mike Powell pointed out, "Elmer" is a bit of
a giveaway. If I saw a "Chuck Armbruster" or a "Nat Saunders" or a "Cindy
Mayer" or a "Caryl Chessman", I'd immediately tend to assume the person was
North American. By the same token, I'd probably assume that "Keith
Wilson", "Graham Chandler", "Robbie Daylight", "Kevin Spencer", "Raelene
Blackman" and "Rosemary Freeman" were Australian.
Active multiculturalism is only a fairly recent phenomenon in both our
continents, and thank goodness it's now OK for people to retain, or reclaim
if they choose, their cultural naming traditions.Even with that, there are
still distinctive "flavours" when parents from various cultural backgrounds
choose to give their children European names. Over here, a "Bain" or a
"Ronderson" is quite likely to be Murri, and "Benson" might well be Hong
Kong Chinese.
To pretend that these historical facts and influences don't exist is REALLY
what "bad PC" is all about. To assert that, because North
Americans/Australians might have any kind of name, there is no such thing
as a "North American/Australian name" is just sloppy logic and a denial of
historical fact.
Vicki PS
--
Vicki Parslow Stafford
"Procrastination While U Wait"
vl...@gil.com.au
Ipswich Qld Australia
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> Well, quite. Except that, as far as I know, mummies *were* burnt as fuel.
> That doesn't proclude Twain from joking about it, of course. "Damn these
> plebians, don't burn worth a cent. Pass out a King!".
>
> A fellow called Dane has written about it, but I don't have the relevant
> copy Journal of American Printing History to hand. Charles?
Sorry Ben. I checked my card catalog, and evidently I don't have a
single issue of JAPH anywhere in my basement library. I'm temporarily
on leave from the AFU library, but will try to check for it next week.
Do you happen to remember the year? I don't think the AFU
collection is complete, not at least at the New York site.
Charles
> ben "should be next to the piece of unicorn scrimshaw" w.
--
http://www.physics.ccsu.edu/dimmick.html
"And some rin up hill and down dale,
knapping the chucky stanes to pieces wi'
hammers, like sae mony road-makers run
daft -- they say it is to see how the
warld was made!"
Ben Walsh
>Sorry Ben. I checked my card catalog, and evidently I don't have a
>single issue of JAPH anywhere in my basement library. I'm temporarily
>on leave from the AFU library, but will try to check for it next week.
>Do you happen to remember the year? I don't think the AFU
>collection is complete, not at least at the New York site.
I can do better than that. The article which should provide the best leads
is:
Dane, J. A., The Curse of the Mummy Paper. Journal of American Printing
History, Vol. XVII, No. 2, 1995, pp. 18-25.
ben "look what happens when I walk up to someone ...." w.
JasCJones
>Hope Munro Smith wrote:
>>
>> In article <7c0pqj$mht$1...@hermes.is.co.za>, "Megan Knight"
>> <knig...@sabc.co.za> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > What, pray tell, is a North American name? Over here, names are fairly
>easy
>> > to categorise (not that I would dare to try, you realise) , but in NA?
>> > Surely pretty much any name could be North American?
>>
>> I agree -- anything from Tom Smith to Jose Rodriquez to
>> Hung Nguyen could be North American!!
>>
>
>Rodriguez. But Mexicans use to spell names finishing in z with
>an s: Rodrigues.
>
>Anyway, an American name should be "Ten Bears"...
I believe it would not be Ten Bears unless the one who named the child saw ten
bears or thought Ten Bears was significant about the child - or the child could
have had ten really big toes in which case he would have been Bear Foot.
Jim "prefers Red Wings" Jones
Even if two $80,000 otters were consumed within minutes of being released,
think of that as $160,000 towards the killer whales....
(It) really isn't that much when you think about it. Especially when Exxon is
paying half. - Derek Tearne on A.F.U.
JasCJones
> And of course, everyone here writes with the quality of Twain
> and Swift. Always. Pffft! :-P
>
>Dr H
>
>
He said bluntly.
Jim "instrument" Jones
Lee Rudolph
>Hope Munro Smith wrote:
>>
>> I agree -- anything from Tom Smith to Jose Rodriquez to
>> Hung Nguyen could be North American!!
>>
>Rodriguez.
Sez who? Just checking listed telephone subscribers in Providence,
Rhode Island, I find 11 surnamed "Rodriquez", though they are (I admit)
swamped by several hundred surnamed "Rodriguez." (Throughout the USA,
there are at least 190 phone numbers in the name of "Jose Rodriquez".)
>But Mexicans use to spell names finishing in z with
>an s: Rodrigues.
My own Representative in the Great and General Court of the Commonwealth
of Massachusetts is one Michael Rodrigues (last name pronounced "rod-rigs").
There're 39 telco subcribers surnamed "Rodrigues" in Providence, and my
bet is that very, very few of them have any known or acknowledged ancestry
in Mexico or elsewhere in Latin America. (Mike certainly doesn't.)
Lee "the group of North Americans is very, very big; the group
of people with Ibero-Romance surnames is very, very, very
big; and you'd evidently be surprised by how many people
in the intersection of these groups (particularly those
who live in southeastern New England) belong to the
Lusitanian Diaspora" Rudolph
Elena Berges
>
> Elena Berges writes:
> >Rodriguez.
>
> Sez who? Just checking listed telephone subscribers in Providence,
> Rhode Island, I find 11 surnamed "Rodriquez", though they are (I admit)
> swamped by several hundred surnamed "Rodriguez." (Throughout the USA,
> there are at least 190 phone numbers in the name of "Jose Rodriquez".)
Hey, I've read of Mexican children named Guivin because of the
famous Saint Guivin's day...
> >But Mexicans use to spell names finishing in z with
> >an s: Rodrigues.
>
> My own Representative in the Great and General Court of the Commonwealth
> of Massachusetts is one Michael Rodrigues (last name pronounced "rod-rigs").
> There're 39 telco subcribers surnamed "Rodrigues" in Providence, and my
> bet is that very, very few of them have any known or acknowledged ancestry
> in Mexico or elsewhere in Latin America. (Mike certainly doesn't.)
That's hardly surprising - Florida, Louisiana, Texas and New
Mexico were once Spanish. And Portugal was under direct
domination during the reign of Phillip II.
Anyway, the Treaty of Tordesillas gave to the Portuguese
the territories of Africa, Asia and Brazil, the rest of South
-and North- America went to Isabella and Ferdinand. So
there is probably more Portuguese influence in Japan than
in the States...
Elena "After all, Roderich is Visigothic" Berges
Lee Rudolph
>Anyway, the Treaty of Tordesillas gave to the Portuguese
>the territories of Africa, Asia and Brazil, the rest of South
>-and North- America went to Isabella and Ferdinand. So
>there is probably more Portuguese influence in Japan than
>in the States...
Well, now...that would depend on the state (and your definition
of influence; everyone knows the Japanese word "tempura",
which it got from Portugese, but offhand I'm not sure there is
*any* [other] equally-well-known English word with Portugese
ancestry) on the one hand, and (perhaps) on the prefecture on
the other hand.
According to the 1990 United States census, nationwide only
about one-half of one percent of the population identifies itself
as having Portugese ancestry. In Massachusetts and Rhode Island,
over 8 percent do so. In Bristol County, Mass., where I live,
just short of 1/3 of the population counted by the census
identified itself as having Portugese ancestry (and that's
undoubtedly an undercount, since two of the cities in the
county--Fall River and New Bedford--harbor large numbers
of recent, often impoverished and occasionally illegal,
and generally suspicious-of-authority, immigrants from
Portugal and former Portugese colonies): there are more
county residents counting "Portugese" as their *primary*
ancestry (144,182, out of a total county population of
506,325) than any two of the next three highest primary
ancestries (Irish, French, English) combined. The census
bureau doesn't break things down (anywhere I can find)
finer than counties, but I think the local paper said
after the last census that my own town is 40%
Portugese-ancestered. The local "Portugese influence"
is immense, and not limited to the parts of it I most
enjoy (viz., the food, the beer [*not* the wine], the
brass statues of Prince Henry the Navigator...).
Lee "last weekend, goldurn it, I missed the annual
chicken-and-goat festival at the Holy Ghost Club
up on Sodom Road" Rudolph
Lee Rudolph
>Anyway, the Treaty of Tordesillas gave to the Portuguese
>the territories of Africa, Asia and Brazil, the rest of South
>-and North- America went to Isabella and Ferdinand. So
>there is probably more Portuguese influence in Japan than
>in the States...
Well, now...that would depend on the state (and your definition
of influence; everyone knows the Japanese word "tempura",
which it got from Portuguese, but offhand I'm not sure there is
*any* [other] equally-well-known English word with Portuguese
ancestry) on the one hand, and (perhaps) on the prefecture on
the other hand.
According to the 1990 United States census, nationwide only
about one-half of one percent of the population identifies itself
as having Portuguese ancestry. In Massachusetts and Rhode Island,
over 8 percent do so. In Bristol County, Mass., where I live,
just short of 1/3 of the population counted by the census
identified itself as having Portuguese ancestry (and that's
undoubtedly an undercount, since two of the cities in the
county--Fall River and New Bedford--harbor large numbers
of recent, often impoverished and occasionally illegal,
and generally suspicious-of-authority, immigrants from
Portugal and former Portuguese colonies): there are more
county residents counting "Portuguese" as their *primary*
ancestry (144,182, out of a total county population of
506,325) than any two of the next three highest primary
ancestries (Irish, French, English) combined. The census
bureau doesn't break things down (anywhere I can find)
finer than counties, but I think the local paper said
after the last census that my own town is 40%
Portuguese-ancestered. The local "Portuguese influence"