How do I get electricity without paying???
Tr...@beauty.com
On Sun, 08 Feb 1998 22:13:56 +0000, James <ja...@technologist.com>
wrote:
<snip>
>If you pull off the meter and turn it upside down for half of the month
>it will run backwards.
Why go to all that trouble? Just air-freight your meter, pole, and
electrical supply down to Australia. Everything runs backwards in the
Southern Hemisphere - there's Aussies richer than Croesus because
they imported US meters! >:)
TRUTH
Reed Error
><snip>
>
>>If you pull off the meter and turn it upside down for half of the month
>>it will run backwards.
>
>Why go to all that trouble? Just air-freight your meter, pole, and
>electrical supply down to Australia. Everything runs backwards in the
>Southern Hemisphere - there's Aussies richer than Croesus because
>they imported US meters! >:)
Move this to alt.bathtubs.drain.clockwise.due.to.Coriolis.effect
if you would be so kind!
Ooooh it makes me wonder. If the little wheely is turning from one
side of the meter to the other, turning the meter upside down would
only change the viewpoint. It would still turn in the same direction
relative to its housing, the inside of the case, and the stuff around
it, wouldn't it? It's using AC, not DC.
Eric Hocking
Tr...@Beauty.Com wrote:
> Why go to all that trouble? Just air-freight your meter, pole, and
> electrical supply down to Australia. Everything runs backwards in the
> Southern Hemisphere - there's Aussies richer than Croesus because
> they imported US meters! >:)
Seems the people importing meters got a good deal on toilet bowls too.
Problem is the bowls were designed to work in the NH, and since the water in
the SH drains the opposite direction, flushing efficiency is not optimum.
--
Eric "piss poor" Hocking
"A closed mouth gathers no feet."
Remove "nospam." from address to email.
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ehocking/
Xaos
Ok, I realize this may be a bit off-topic (at least in alt.2600) but I'm
just a bit ticked at all this stupidity over electric meters (and since
getting electricity for free is, in some deranged way, a form of hacking...)
Someone has said that turning the disc upside down will cause it to reverse.
This has been answered with, no, it won't. You are correct. It won't
change direction. Think about it. If I put a tire on my car with the
inside of the tire facing outward, will my car eternally drive in reverse?
Nope.
Also, there's been some argument about the disc being aluminum and that
magnets will cause it to slow down. Problem with this is that yes, the disc
is aluminum and no, magnets won't affect it. So, it has been asked, how
does the disc turn? This is stupid. How does my car tire turn? Magnets??
Nada. A "motor"...oooooo, I know, it's amazing, but yes, it's being turned
by a motor. Thus, we have electricity turning a motor. This isn't a new
concept, people.
By the way, do any of you actually KNOW any electricians? They could
explain all of this to you (probably a little more technical than me, too).
Ok, subject is CLOSED, how about we alt.2600ers talk about real hacking for
a change, shall we? And alt.folklore.urban can get back to talking about
urban folklore. Thanks.
Xaos
xao...@nospam.hotmail.com
To e-mail, remove the obvious spam-blocker.
The Abyss website is up, but I don't have a lot on it yet. If you wanna
have a look, though, just let me know.
"You can learn a lot from a dummy..." - safety belt PSA
Molly B. Denum
In article <6bps6l$4b$1...@usenet11.supernews.com>, "Xaos"
<xao...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>Also, there's been some argument about the disc being aluminum and that
>magnets will cause it to slow down. Problem with this is that yes, the disc
>is aluminum and no, magnets won't affect it. So, it has been asked, how
>does the disc turn? This is stupid. How does my car tire turn? Magnets??
>Nada. A "motor"...oooooo, I know, it's amazing, but yes, it's being turned
>by a motor. Thus, we have electricity turning a motor. This isn't a new
>concept, people.
Wait a minute, does that mean that the electric company is charging ME for
the electric power to run THEIR meter wheel motor to determine how much to
charge me each month?
--
Molly B. Denum
de...@iname.com
________________
http://www.shef.ac.uk/~chem/web-elements/nofr-biol/Mo.html
Adam Stouffer
>
> Wait a minute, does that mean that the electric company is charging ME for
> the electric power to run THEIR meter wheel motor to determine how much to
> charge me each month?
>
Yep. for the 1/20 of a watt that it uses.
--
__________________________
| Remove the NO-SPAM |
__________________________
cmw32
cr...@boot.disk (Reed Error) wrote:
>><snip>
>>
>>>If you pull off the meter and turn it upside down for half of the month
>>>it will run backwards.
>>
>>Why go to all that trouble? Just air-freight your meter, pole, and
>>electrical supply down to Australia. Everything runs backwards in the
>>Southern Hemisphere - there's Aussies richer than Croesus because
>>they imported US meters! >:)
>
>Move this to alt.bathtubs.drain.clockwise.due.to.Coriolis.effect
>if you would be so kind!
>
>Ooooh it makes me wonder. If the little wheely is turning from one
>side of the meter to the other, turning the meter upside down would
>only change the viewpoint. It would still turn in the same direction
>relative to its housing, the inside of the case, and the stuff around
>it, wouldn't it? It's using AC, not DC.
I think you're wrong, but it's a good point I hadn't thought about
before. In AC there _is_ no direction, no overall flow of current. As
much current comes out of the live wire as goes back in. Connecting
something like a motor to your AC supply makes it harder for current
to come in and out, so the turbine generator at the other end (power
company) will experience more mechanical resistance and will slow down
unless they stoke up the fires :-) That would eman that the frequency
and voltage of the AC would vary, as they do all them time due to
varying demand on the elctricity network.
So how _does_ a meter register how hard it is to push electrons
through a circuit? A meter can definitely run backwards because if you
_generate_ your own power, i.e. your house generates more power than
it uses so you become a net "exporter" and you're helping the power
company to push those elctrons into high-resistance circuits, then
your meter WILL run backwards and the power company is legally obliged
to pay you for the power you generate at the going rate :-)
Wiring the terminals the other way round (by turning your meter upside
down?) would almost certainly make it run backwards properly; it would
look to be going the same way to you (even though it is upside down so
it should be going the other way) and the mechanics are running in the
opposite direction so the counter winds down instead of up.
Just a thought. Ciao, Chris.
== Chris "veni vidi vixie" Wilson (the.jackal) cm...@cam.ac.uk ==
- Webmaster, Nielsen McNally (http://www.nielsen-mcnally.co.uk) -
- Cracking RC5 for CU Crypto Soc (distributed.net) ICQ #7725267 -
Microsoft is not the answer.
Microsoft is the question.
NO (or Linux) is the answer.
(Taken from a .signature from someone from the UK, source unknown)
ftp://ftp.icce.rug.nl/pub/unix/linuxcookie.data
Centron
And I thought this was just a good joke.
Centron
cmw32 @ NOSPAM.cam.ac.uk (the.jackal) wrote in message
<34e0cbbf....@news.cl.cam.ac.uk>...
David Lesher
cmw32 @ NOSPAM.cam.ac.uk (the.jackal) writes:
>So how _does_ a meter register how hard it is to push electrons
>through a circuit? A meter can definitely run backwards because if you
>_generate_ your own power, i.e. your house generates more power than
>it uses so you become a net "exporter" and you're helping the power
>company to push those elctrons into high-resistance circuits, then
>your meter WILL run backwards and the power company is legally obliged
>to pay you for the power you generate at the going rate :-)
There are 2 coils: the voltage coil, and the current coil. The
watthourmeter integrates V {instantaneous voltage} * I * power
factor to get true watts * time aka watthours.
Run the current the other way, and the phase angle will too....
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Jim Everman
Anonymous wrote:
>
> A turbine generator at a power company "experiencing more mechanical resistance"??? > Mechanical resistance??? You are really lost dude...
Uh, well, actually it's sorta right - the *turbine* would experience
more (mechanical) load (resistance) keeping the voltage steady.
> You are totally offbase and lost--
> You cannot reverse the flow of water or electrons by hooking up your
> own source (generator) it simply doesn't work that way.
Not sure how to break this to you, but the short answer is "Oh yes
it does work that way." (not the electron flow, but what the person
you're trying to put down was talking about.)
A few years ago the was a big flap in parts of the USA about people
doing just that thing. Turns out that (unless a modified watt-hour
meter is installed that is prevented mechanically from turning
backward) if you feed power into the grid from your own generator,
the meter will rotate backwards. The people doing this thought it
should be thier right to "save up" power in this fashion for a "rainy
day". The power cos objected to buying power for the same price they
were selling it for. I don't recall what the outcome was....
> Electrical co-generators have special equipment for them to produce
> electricity into the grid.
And it isn't trivial, but it can be done at home.
> On an American residential single-phase 240/120 system you can reverse
> either of the two hot legs (each are 120volts) but you cannot reverse
> the grounded conductor with a hot conductor without causing a short
> circuit. Either way you will not get the meter to run in reverse.
While this is basicly correct, it isn't very insightful - coming from
someone trying to show how *lost* someone else is. Like, so what?
Wanna talk about what happens to three phase machinery when you swap
two of the three legs?
--
Jim Everman mailto:eve...@Anet-STL.com
http://webusers.Anet-STL.com/~everman/
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by
stupidity.
Cambias
Rub a cat. If you do it right you'll also hear a soothing buzzing noise.
Cambias
Adam Stouffer
>
> So how _does_ a meter register how hard it is to push electrons
> through a circuit?
The in coming ac goes through a few turns of some bus bar which is
wrapped
around an iron core of a motor. The motor speed depends on how much
current
is flowing thru the bar. If you are pulling a lot of current then the
magnetic
field generated by the bar will be stronger making the motor spin
faster. Have
you ever taken an old electric meter apart? I took one from an old house
they
were going to tear down. Would make a nice decoration for my wall.
Adam
donoli
Molly B. Denum wrote in message ...
>In article <6bps6l$4b$1...@usenet11.supernews.com>, "Xaos"
><xao...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Also, there's been some argument about the disc being aluminum and that
>>magnets will cause it to slow down. Problem with this is that yes, the
disc
>>is aluminum and no, magnets won't affect it. So, it has been asked, how
>>does the disc turn? This is stupid. How does my car tire turn?
Magnets??
>>Nada. A "motor"...oooooo, I know, it's amazing, but yes, it's being
turned
>>by a motor. Thus, we have electricity turning a motor. This isn't a new
>>concept, people.
>
>Wait a minute, does that mean that the electric company is charging ME for
>the electric power to run THEIR meter wheel motor to determine how much to
>charge me each month?
>
>--
>Molly B. Denum
>de...@iname.com
>________________
>http://www.shef.ac.uk/~chem/web-elements/nofr-biol/Mo.html
The armature of the motor isn't aluminum. Why wouldn't a magnet slow that
down?
cmw32
Adam Stouffer <te...@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> wrote:
>>
>> So how _does_ a meter register how hard it is to push electrons
>> through a circuit?
>
>The in coming ac goes through a few turns of some bus bar which is
>wrapped
>around an iron core of a motor. The motor speed depends on how much
>current
>is flowing thru the bar. If you are pulling a lot of current then the
>magnetic
>field generated by the bar will be stronger making the motor spin
>faster. Have
>you ever taken an old electric meter apart? I took one from an old house
>they
>were going to tear down. Would make a nice decoration for my wall.
You don't DRAW any current when you're working with AC. As much
current goes back down the wire as came in. The only thing that's
important is how HARD it is to push electrons into or out of a house.
The more "power" you are using, the harder it becomes to push tose
electrons through your house, so the more fuel has to be burned in the
power station to keep the generator going at the same speed. A device
like the one you are talking about would always register zero, or
always run at the same speed regardless of how much power was actually
being used.
If you wire the motor between live (from power supply) and live (to
your house) then it would always register zero because just as much
current goes out as comes in. If you wire it between live (incoming)
and neutral, then it would always run at the same speed regardless of
how much power you were using. The only thing that changes is, if you
are drawing more power, more electrons per second go in _and_ come out
of your house. Maybe there is a one-way gearing system so that the
disc cannot go backwards; but then reversing it would have no effect
and if you pumped power back into the grid then you would be charged
for it.
cmw32
Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>>In article <6bqnj0$a...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>, "Centron" <cen...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>>And I thought this was just a good joke.
>>>
>>>Centron
>>>
>>>cmw32 @ NOSPAM.cam.ac.uk (the.jackal) wrote in message
>>><34e0cbbf....@news.cl.cam.ac.uk>...
>>>>cr...@boot.disk (Reed Error) wrote:
>>>>
>
>>>>>Ooooh it makes me wonder. If the little wheely is turning from one
>>>>>side of the meter to the other, turning the meter upside down would
>>>>>only change the viewpoint. It would still turn in the same direction
>>>>>relative to its housing, the inside of the case, and the stuff around
>>>>>it, wouldn't it? It's using AC, not DC.
>>>>
>>>>I think you're wrong, but it's a good point I hadn't thought about
>>>>before. In AC there _is_ no direction, no overall flow of current. As
>>>>much current comes out of the live wire as goes back in.
>
>What in the hell are you talking about? Electrons flow from negative to positive. (old theory of postive to negative has been disproved) Current
>"coming out of live wires"? You need to get some good books on Electrical theory.
I _know_ some elctrical theory, thank you, I'm doing physics as part
of my Computer Science degree and I did physics A level before that.
You're only thinking about DC; AC is totally different.
>Connecting
>>>>something like a motor to your AC supply makes it harder for current
>>>>to come in and out, so the turbine generator at the other end (power
>>>>company) will experience more mechanical resistance and will slow down
>>>>unless they stoke up the fires :-) That would eman that the frequency
>>>>and voltage of the AC would vary, as they do all them time due to
>>>>varying demand on the elctricity network.
>
>A turbine generator at a power company "experiencing more mechanical resistance"??? Mechanical resistance??? You are really lost dude...
>Increased loads causes a VOLTAGE DROP and then the power company has to boost up the voltage to compensate.
DC, not AC.
>Ever hear of Ohm's Law?
>
>>>>
>>>>So how _does_ a meter register how hard it is to push electrons
>>>>through a circuit? A meter can definitely run backwards because if you
>>>>_generate_ your own power, i.e. your house generates more power than
>>>>it uses so you become a net "exporter" and you're helping the power
>>>>company to push those elctrons into high-resistance circuits, then
>>>>your meter WILL run backwards and the power company is legally obliged
>>>>to pay you for the power you generate at the going rate :-)
>
>You are totally offbase and lost-- In order for electrons to flow (amperage) you need a LOAD. Devices such as toasters,ovens,table lamps
>are considered loads. No load, no current flow. Just like water coming out of the faucet. If the faucet is turned off there is no water flow. There is still pressure in the pipes or plumbing, just as there is Voltage in an electrical line. You cannot reverse the flow of water or electrons by hooking up your own source (generator) it simply doesn't work that way.
Only for DC.
>Electrical co-generators have special equipment for them to produce electricity into the grid.
No they don't, it's a bloody big motor in reverse.
>>>>Wiring the terminals the other way round (by turning your meter upside
>>>>down?) would almost certainly make it run backwards properly; it would
>>>>look to be going the same way to you (even though it is upside down so
>>>>it should be going the other way) and the mechanics are running in the
>>>>opposite direction so the counter winds down instead of up.
>
>On an American residential single-phase 240/120 system you can reverse either of the
>two hot legs (each are 120volts) but you cannot reverse the grounded conductor with a hot conductor without causing a short circuit. Either way
>you will not get the meter to run in reverse.
AFAIK that's three-phase not single-phase. I only know about single
phase systems.
Mike Woloch
Lessons in electricity metering.
Alternating current electricity has a sinusoidal waveform. Let's assume
that you are in North America. Your house gets two incoming feeds. Each
is at a potential of 120V to ground. However, the two circuits are 180deg
out of phase with each other. This means that voltage between the two
feeds is 240V. This is how you are able to have 120V for lights and most
appliances, and 240V for your stove, dryer, welding machine, etc.
For an AC distribution system, properly designed, with a very large
"grid", you will have what's known as an "infinite bus". In this case, no
matter how much load you add, you do not *significantly* change the
voltage (and frequency) of the system. Generators "tied" to this system
are fixed to the system frequency of 60Hz (in North America). Once so
"tied", the speed of the generators is fixed, as is their frequency of
output. Increasing energy input (i.e. more steam into the turbine that
turns the generator) will increase energy output (more current out). The
turbine doesn't run *faster*, but experiences more resistance, thus
working *harder*.
This remains true as long as the amount of power that any device adds (or
draws) from the system is a *very small* percentage of the total. If you
large loads are drawn, or generation drops, you will have voltage and
frequency collapse, and ultimately, a severe blackout because protective
devices limit the generators from operating far from their designed
speeds.
Of course, when you add a heavy load onto a single circuit in your house,
you will see *some* voltage drop, but only on the local level (ever turn
on a hair dryer and see the bathroom lights on the same circuit dim? - but
not every light in the house dims?). Since you have only increased the
power drawn from the system by a very small amount, the voltage and
frequency have not changed. What has happened, is that some generator has
had more input power (a valve adding more steam or gas).
Now the metering here is not connected directly across the line. What you
have are current transformers, which provide a current *proportional to
that drawn by all your house appliances*. There is, as someone has
already said, a voltage coil (operated across the two incoming feeds), and
a current coil (operated from the *sampled current* as mentioned above),
which integrate the product of V and I (and the angle between known as
power factor - which I won't explain here) over time to get energy in
watt-hours, or kilowatt-hours since this is a more handy unit.
You are billed for the energy used at the entry point, which includes the
small fraction used for the meter. Rest assured that this is not a great
rip-off. The more power a meter draws, the less accurate it will be.
Besides, the utility has provided the meter, and their cost is
non-trivial.
Now as for stopping the meter and getting free electricity, well, it's not
a question of simply reversing the leads. Since this is AC, and a
sinusoidal waveform, you'll notice that for half the cycle, the voltage
and current are in the opposite direction. Since they are both in the
opposite direction, though, power flows the same way.
Interfering with the magnetic field in the motor's meter (that turns the
gear mechanism that turns the dials), would be difficult. You would have
to overwhelm the field, and that's tough because magnetic fields drop off
as the square of the distance. The air gap on the meter motor will be
only about a millimeter. So either you get very close (*right inside the
meter*), or you have a really strong magnetic field. Powering that can be
a problem too.
As for physically tampering with the meter (cutting leads, etc), they are
usually read by meter-readers and checked for such details. There is a
seal on the glass housing, and to cut the leads to the coils (powered
through current transformers) requires you getting inside the meter and
modifying it, unnoticed. Some semi-clever folk have used jewellers'
drills to make small holes in the case, and used something to interfere
with the motor/gears that drive the dial indicators. If they know when
the meter reader comes along, they pull out the obstructing object and the
reader doesn't see the tiny hole from the jewellers' drill. They were
caught because meter-readers don't come always come by at regular
intervals, and see the object stuck in the meter.
With automatic billing, utilities will flag any customer with a
significant change in their usage. If it drops to just a little for a few
months, they assume a vacant house for sale, or a vacation, but keep
looking for it to keep up for many months before investigating (phone
call, closer inspection). A reading of *zero* is a red flag and will
attract a lot of attention right away.
The whole business of the infinite bus and AC power, is by and large, too
much information for knowing how to defeat the billing system of the local
electric utility. It's hard to find references for it, even in many
electrical engineering textbooks. I hope this helps - it's not funny to
know how this works and see people talk about turning the meter upside
down. Turn a clock upside down and tell me which way it runs...
-Mike Woloch
Remove GREEN from e-mail address to reply.
P.S. I have a good analogy to explain the infinite bus, though, for those
who still want to understand. Imagine a large, above ground swimming
pool. Imagine some *small* holes poked in its sides. Imagine a
handful of people pouring water into the pool with small buckets. As long
as the holes are small, and the buckets are small, and require that "water
in equals water out", you keep the water level fairly constant and stable,
and the outflow from each hole constant. Poke another hole, and everybody
picks up the slack, just a bit - hardly enough for any one person to
notice. Shortly the water level and outflow rate will be restored. This
is the infinite bus power system in a nutshell.
LaCS 29
>Subject: Re: How do I get electricity without paying???
I guess we could plug an extension cord into Bob Ward's exterior outlet, and he
can pay for it.. :o)
_________________________________
LaCS29
I am the one your mother warned you about...
Randy Thomson
In article <wb8fozEo...@netcom.com>, wb8...@netcom.com (David Lesher) wrote:
>cmw32 @ NOSPAM.cam.ac.uk (the.jackal) writes:
>
>
>>through a circuit? A meter can definitely run backwards because if you
>>_generate_ your own power, i.e. your house generates more power than
>>it uses so you become a net "exporter" and you're helping the power
>>company to push those elctrons into high-resistance circuits, then
>>your meter WILL run backwards and the power company is legally obliged
>>to pay you for the power you generate at the going rate :-)
>
>watthourmeter integrates V {instantaneous voltage} * I * power
>factor to get true watts * time aka watthours.
>
>Run the current the other way, and the phase angle will too....
>
With respect to comments in other branches in this thread:
1. The little aluminum disk and the big magnet ARE the motor which turn the
meter. The magnetic field in the non-magnetic, aluminum disk is generated from
eddy currents in the aluminum created by the flow of alternating current
through the electromagnet.
2. No you don't pay the $0.001 or so for the power to run the meter each
month. Since the power is expended in running the meter, it doesn't register
on the meter. The power company absorbs that big bill, which is one hell of a
lot less than they pay for current leakage across bad line insulators, etc.
3. There have been legal rulings, I believe in most states, to make the power
companies accept the power generated in a residence from local sources such as
solar or wind generators. But, in fact, the use of these generators very
rarely actually makes the meter run backwards; generally, it just slows down
the forward grind.
Since I don't work in the power field, I'll stop before I run out of
expertise.
Randy Thomson, MSEE, U of Ky., 1964
Randy Thomson
Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems
--------------------------------------------
My opinions, not necessarily those of LMTAS,
etc., etc., etc..
To reply, note my last name contains no "p".
--------------------------------------------
Ken Smith
In article <34E1EF...@nf.GREEN.acres.com>,
Mike Woloch <mwo...@nf.GREEN.acres.com> wrote:
[....]
>gear mechanism that turns the dials), would be difficult. You would have
>to overwhelm the field, and that's tough because magnetic fields drop off
>as the square of the distance. The air gap on the meter motor will be
>only about a millimeter. So either you get very close (*right inside the
>meter*), or you have a really strong magnetic field. Powering that can be
>a problem too.
If the distance is much greater than the length of the magnet the field
drops off as the cube of distance. Any magnet you use would have to be
large, strong and close to the meter to have an effect.
--
--
kens...@rahul.net forging knowledge
Reed Error
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:25:17 -0600, "Centron" <cen...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
(Much ado about reversing power meters snipped)
>And I thought this was just a good joke.
It WAS a good joke, and still is. But it got some of us to actually
thinking about ways it might be done. That's exactly the sort of
thing that developed many of our nice things we have today. They came
about through accidents, joking and brainstorming.
Reed Error
>>gear mechanism that turns the dials), would be difficult. You would have
>>to overwhelm the field, and that's tough because magnetic fields drop off
>>as the square of the distance. The air gap on the meter motor will be
>>only about a millimeter. So either you get very close (*right inside the
>>meter*), or you have a really strong magnetic field. Powering that can be
>>a problem too.
>
>drops off as the cube of distance. Any magnet you use would have to be
>large, strong and close to the meter to have an effect.
But what's this about "giving back" to the power company? I've heard
of the concept, but it strikes me wrongly to think that you can
generate your own power, feed it back into the power lines, somehow
meter it, and charge the power company (heh) for the product. I mean,
wouldn't the power company's AC overwhelm your output? How would they
know, anyway? And wouldn't it act like Star Trek antimatter and blow
up the known universe?
cmw32
Mike Woloch <mwo...@nf.GREEN.acres.com> wrote:
>Lessons in electricity metering.
>
>Alternating current electricity has a sinusoidal waveform. Let's assume
>that you are in North America. Your house gets two incoming feeds. Each
>is at a potential of 120V to ground. However, the two circuits are 180deg
I assume you mean RMS average potential of 120V to ground.
>out of phase with each other. This means that voltage between the two
>feeds is 240V. This is how you are able to have 120V for lights and most
>appliances, and 240V for your stove, dryer, welding machine, etc.
Sorry, I didn't know this. AFAIK in England we have just one feed at
240V.
OK, it's _more or less_ an infinite bus, but the reason I explained it
the way I did was to make it clearer for people how it actually
worked. Saying it's an infinite bus isn't quite true, and it covers
over all the nitty gritty about mechanical resistance in the motors
and how the system _actually_ compensates, very slightly, for every
change. If someone, somewhere, switches on an electric heater,
(probably) every generator on the same net experiences a little extra
resistance. That power has to come from somewhere, you can't pretend
it's just "stored" anywhere or it's created out of nowhere. In DC,
capacitors could provide a backup store to keep the power levels up in
case of temporary extra demand, but that doesn't work for AC.
Instantly you turn the thing on, it becomes harder for the power
company to push electrons into and pull them out of your house, so the
voltage supply of your house drops a little bit until the generators
are back up to speed. Your neighbour and your street, in fact every
house on the same net, experiences a tiny drop in power. Let's say
there are a million homes on the net, on average every one gets a drop
of about 1 millionth of the drop you get when you turn on that fire,
so none fo them will notice it, but it's there.
This drop in power is what causes the infinite bus effect (I know you
understand it, but maybe some others don't so I'm explaining it for
them). They all drop their power so that your house can have enough to
build it back up, but that's a surge of current rushing towards your
house at the speed of light and it can't make up for your entire
voltage drop until it all gets there. SO your voltage suddenly dips
and then works its way back up over a fraction of a second as the
extra current from other houses on the net starts to arrive. Then
finally the power company will respond to the change in demand and
replace the one millionth of a volt which is missing from everyone's
home because of you.
Everey generator, everywhere on the same net, is running at exactly
the same speed, the frequency of the AC current on the network, but
this is almost never exactly 60Hz because the demand for power is
changing all the time and so are the speeds of the generators. When I
turn on my electric fire, every generator in
Clive D.W. Feather
>Lessons in electricity metering.
Interesting and detailed. Now for my ObTWIAVBP bit. The following
applies to those parts of the UK who have rewired the house since square
pin plugs became usual.
>Your house gets two incoming feeds. Each
>is at a potential of 120V to ground.
Your house gets an incoming pair - live and neutral. There is a 230V AC
[EU] difference between them. The neutral is somewhere near earth (it's
grounded at the substation or such like). The houses in the street
normally tap of the three phases in sequence.
>the system frequency of 60Hz
50Hz.
>Of course, when you add a heavy load onto a single circuit in your house,
>you will see *some* voltage drop, but only on the local level (ever turn
>on a hair dryer and see the bathroom lights on the same circuit dim?
Not here. The normal arrangements is that lights are on one or two bus
or tree shaped arrangements, while sockets are wired into one or more
rings (hence "ring main"). Each bus, tree, or ring is fed from a
separate fuse or breaker at the consumer unit.
>Now as for stopping the meter and getting free electricity, well, it's not
>a question of simply reversing the leads.
[...]
>it's not funny to
>know how this works and see people talk about turning the meter upside
>down. Turn a clock upside down and tell me which way it runs...
If you take one (used to be) common design of meter, there are three
contacts in a row: live in, neutral, live out. Turning it upside down
means that the current coil is reversed, but not the voltage coil. Thus
the integrated power is reversed as well:
Normal setup Inverted setup
+-+-+ +-+-+
| | | meter meter | | |
| V C coils coils C V |
| | | | | |
O O O O O O
L ----O O O---- L L ----O O O---- L
Street | House Street | House
N ------+------ N N ------+------ N
In the normal setup, the current flows the same way in both coils at all
times. In the inverted setup, it flows the opposite way in the two coils
at all times. Gearing or other designs of connector can solve this, of
course.
[EU] This used to be 240V, and is being fiddled with, probably by the
European Union.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | Director of Software Development | Home email:
Tel: +44 181 371 1138 | Demon Internet Ltd. | <cl...@davros.org>
Fax: +44 181 371 1037 | <cl...@demon.net> |
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address |
Gorilla
Sorry dude, I just can't let this thread die with you being 100% wrong.
Xaos wrote:
>
> Ok, I realize this may be a bit off-topic (at least in alt.2600) but I'm
> just a bit ticked at all this stupidity over electric meters (and since
> getting electricity for free is, in some deranged way, a form of hacking...)
I'll agree with that much.
> Someone has said that turning the disc upside down will cause it to reverse.
> This has been answered with, no, it won't. You are correct. It won't
> change direction.
Actually it was said that turning the entire meter upside down would
cause
it to reverse, which is true of older meters, which comprise the
majority
of power meters in the US. Some newer meters have a ratcheting mechanism
to prevent this.
Take a look at Deja News in the group comp.home.automation for an thread
titled "Calling all PowerLine Gurus..." There are several accounts of
people who have fliped the meter upside down to reverse the meter. This
is
a common (and illegal) practice at construction sites.
There is also a legal and sometimes profitable way of running your meter
backwards. It's called cogeneration. If you had a LARGE generator or
other
device (windmill, solar, etc..) powering your house, and you have the
ability
to generate excess, the utility company MUST, by law, buy it from you at
a
rate near what they charge you. Cogeneration requires special power
handleing
equipment. The phase of the power must match that of the utility. All
generation equipment must be on your side of the meter. If you generate
more
than you use, the excess will be fed to the local power grid, and
YOUR METER WILL TURN BACKWARDS. Now considering that the difference in
potentials will turn it backwards in this legal situation, the same
difference
would exist if you were not cogenerating and had fliped your meter
around.
> Think about it. If I put a tire on my car with the inside of the tire facing
> outward, will my car eternally drive in reverse?
This is a STUPID analogy that you did NOT think about. If you look at a
tire
from the passinger side while the car is moving forward it will turn
clockwise. However if you move that same tire to the driver side (like
when you have your tires rotated) and drive forward it turns
counterclockwise.
Is it broken? Are we breaking the laws of physics? Did you honestly
think that
moving the tire an any manner would change the direction the car will
drive?
I hope not.
> Also, there's been some argument about the disc being aluminum and that
> magnets will cause it to slow down. Problem with this is that yes, the disc
> is aluminum and no, magnets won't affect it.
Now ya went and did it. You made me dig out about 25 pounds of physics
books.
Strong magnet and aluminum block (or copper, or nickel) make no
interaction
unless they are moved. This can be very dramatic with strong fields.
This is
true whether you have a fixed magnet and you move the aluminum, or have
an
alternating magnetic field and 'fixed' piece of aluminum. See Lenz's
Law.
> So, it has been asked, how does the disc turn? This is stupid.
I sure is. You should have looked for the answer before posting and
making a TOTAL fool out of yourself.
> How does my car tire turn?
In your case you probally have to get out every few blocks and wind it
up again.
> Magnets?? Nada. A "motor"...oooooo, I know, it's amazing, but yes,
> it's being turned by a motor. Thus, we have electricity turning a motor.
> This isn't a new concept, people.
And where is the motor jack ass? Did you ever stop to think the aluminum
disk IS the motor? Well, it is. It's called an induction motor. It works
like this: (paraphrased from The Feynman Lectures On Physics, Vol II,
Sec 17, page 7. Go look it up.)
"(An) electromagnet, consisting of a bundle of laminated iron sheets
wound with a solenoidal coil, is powered with alternating current from
a generator. [AC mains] The magnet produces a varying flux through the
aluminum disk. If we cover one-half of the magnet pole with an aluminum
plate, the disk begins to rotate, and we have a motor. The operation
depends on two eddy-current effects."
"First, the eddy-currents in the aluminum plate oppose the change of
flux through it, so the magnetic field above the plate always lags
the field above that half of the pole which is not covered. This
so-called 'shaded-pole' effect produces a field which in the 'shaded'
region varies much like that in the unshaded region except that it is
delayed a constant amount in time. The whole effect is as if there were
a magnet only half as wide which is continually being moved from the
unshaded region toward the shaded one. Then the varying fields interact
with the eddy currents in the disc to produce the torque on it."
In many meters it is possible to see this EXACT arangement. A laminated
iron core with a coil of wire wraped around it mounted above or below
the edge of the aluminum disk. On some meters it is possible to see the
gear that drives the clock like meters.
If your still having a hard time believeing, ask yourself this:
What possible use is there in having a little aluminum disc spinning in
HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of power meters?
> By the way, do any of you actually KNOW any electricians?
Yes. I have several family members who are electricians going back two
generations.
> They could explain all of this to you (probably a little more technical
> than me, too).
Probally not. Most electricians don't know much more than how to wire
and
install. Major contractors like those that do big industrial installs
might.
> Ok, subject is CLOSED, how about we alt.2600ers talk about real hacking for
> a change, shall we?
You don't call this hacking? Hacking is diging for information, and
finding and exploiting weakness in systems. I have done just that, and I
could go on. For the past four years or so, SCE has been testing an
electronic meter at my house. This isn't just one with an LCD display,
it
still has the conventional dials, but it also has an embeded computer,
complete with modem (connects to the regular phone like) and a
bidirectional
IR link. I was there when it was installed and I grilled the guy about
it.
For the first year the guy came out with an electronic clipboard similar
to the ones the FedEx guys have. He's point it at the meter and press a
button.
Then he would check the dials against what the computer said. I haven't
seen
anyone come read the meter for some time now. Realize this lets them do
something that could never be done before. Monitor useage by time. Do we
use
more during the day or night? Knowing that people use more electricity
during
the day could give them an excuse to jack daytime rates, or vice versa.
They can record stats based on daily, hourly, half hourly, 15 minute
useage,
and once a month the meter quietly calls up and dumps what it knows. Big
brother
isn't (and has never been) the government, it's big business.
> And alt.folklore.urban can get back to talking about urban folklore. Thanks.
I'd say this has all been rather urban. As for folklore, they'll be
talking
about Xaos and how wrong he was and what an ass he made out of himself.
Tuck you tail between your legs and find a nice rock to hide under.
> "You can learn a lot from a dummy..." - safety belt PSA
Unless that dummy is you.
- Gorilla
Gorilla
the.jackal wrote:
>
> You don't DRAW any current when you're working with AC. As much
> current goes back down the wire as came in.
Not exactly true. If it were so, the power Co couldn't charge you
for anything. Furthermore, you'd get nothing out of it.
They're not exactly renting the stuff you know.
If 100% of what went it, came back out, where does the work come
from? You need to read up on conservation of energy.
Gorilla
Reed Error wrote:
> Ooooh it makes me wonder. If the little wheely is turning from one
> side of the meter to the other, turning the meter upside down would
> only change the viewpoint.
Yes except the phase from the mains changes, so even though you
fliped it, it would still look like it was going the same direction
even though it turning backwards!!!!
> It would still turn in the same direction relative to its housing,
> the inside of the case, and the stuff around it, wouldn't it?
> It's using AC, not DC.
Correct. See the follow up to Xaos's post where I sodomize him
with a mental chainsaw.
cmw32
cr...@boot.disk (Reed Error) wrote:
>>>gear mechanism that turns the dials), would be difficult. You would have
>>>to overwhelm the field, and that's tough because magnetic fields drop off
>>>as the square of the distance. The air gap on the meter motor will be
>>>only about a millimeter. So either you get very close (*right inside the
>>>meter*), or you have a really strong magnetic field. Powering that can be
>>>a problem too.
>>
>>If the distance is much greater than the length of the magnet the field
>>drops off as the cube of distance. Any magnet you use would have to be
>>large, strong and close to the meter to have an effect.
>
>But what's this about "giving back" to the power company? I've heard
>of the concept, but it strikes me wrongly to think that you can
>generate your own power, feed it back into the power lines, somehow
>meter it, and charge the power company (heh) for the product. I mean,
>wouldn't the power company's AC overwhelm your output? How would they
>know, anyway? And wouldn't it act like Star Trek antimatter and blow
>up the known universe?
It IS possible. A generator is just a motor where you are putting in
mechanical power to keep it running at a certain speed. Every time
someone else turns on an appliance, the frequency and power of the AC
current into EVERYONE'S home on the same grid will drop slightly. If
you put mechanical energy into your generator (motor) to keep it
running at the same speed, then you are helping to push more electrons
per second inot that person's home (and pull them out again), so you
are a net exporter of electrical power. Your meter will run in reverse
(or it's supposed to) so that your electricity bill will be reduced by
the same amount. There is NOTHING legally that the power company can
do to avoid paying you for the electricity you put back into the
system, as long as you can prove that you haven't been tampering with
your meter and that you _are_ actually exporting electricity. They
might well take you to court but you CAN WIN.
Mike Woloch
Apologies first - most of my post was based on the subtle nuances of North
American 60Hz systems. Things differ slightly, too, between the US and
Canada. Industrial voltage, for instance is 600V in Canada, and 480V in the
US.
And for the pedantic, AC voltage values are assumed to be RMS values
(equivalent DC heating power) unless specifically stated. *Nobody*
describes electricity as peak voltage, or peak-to-peak voltage, when talking
about power distribution.
Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
>
> In article <34E1EF...@nf.GREEN.acres.com>, Mike Woloch
> <mwo...@nf.GREEN.acres.com> writes
> >Lessons in electricity metering.
> Interesting and detailed. Now for my ObTWIAVBP bit. The following
> applies to those parts of the UK who have rewired the house since square
> pin plugs became usual.
> Your house gets an incoming pair - live and neutral. There is a 230V AC
> [EU] difference between them. The neutral is somewhere near earth (it's
> grounded at the substation or such like). The houses in the street
> normally tap of the three phases in sequence.
Maybe in the EU. In North America, nowadays, typically you will see a whole
side of a street, or even a whole street, wired up to one of the three
phases. The next block will be a different phase. Sometimes, small
subdivisions are all done on the same phase - all depends on the system
designer and the details of the substation - but it's cheaper to do a whole
block/street from one phase at a time. If you have houses in sequence
tapped from different phases, you can run a line from each neighbour and get
3-phase power. Similarly, you may find that if the lights in every third
house go out (one phase has gone out of service), you can backfeed power
into your house from a neighbour. Bad things happen, by the way, when your
power returns while you backfeed from a different phase. This is, in a way,
getting electricity without paying, but different from what we've been
talking about.
Here in NA, also, the neutral will *definitely* be grounded at the
distribution transformer - either pole-mounted, or pad-mounted on the
ground.
> >the system frequency of 60Hz
>
> 50Hz.
Apologies - *most* of the world is 50Hz.
> >Of course, when you add a heavy load onto a single circuit in your house,
> >you will see *some* voltage drop, but only on the local level (ever turn
> >on a hair dryer and see the bathroom lights on the same circuit dim?
>
> Not here. The normal arrangements is that lights are on one or two bus
> or tree shaped arrangements, while sockets are wired into one or more
> rings (hence "ring main"). Each bus, tree, or ring is fed from a
> separate fuse or breaker at the consumer unit.
Really? Surprising. Typically in North America houses are wired with whole
rooms - lights and sockets - coming from the same breaker or fuse. Each one
has benefits and disadvantages, as it's confusing as to which circuit you
turn off when you have, say, three rooms wired up from only two circuits.
> If you take one (used to be) common design of meter, there are three
> contacts in a row: live in, neutral, live out. Turning it upside down
> means that the current coil is reversed, but not the voltage coil. Thus
> the integrated power is reversed as well:
> In the normal setup, the current flows the same way in both coils at all
> times. In the inverted setup, it flows the opposite way in the two coils
> at all times. Gearing or other designs of connector can solve this, of
> course.
Yes, meter design has quite a bit to do with changing connections,
especially since current transformers are polarized, but when the guts are
protected by the meter housing, then you have to tamper with the meter
(*always* illegal).
Now, more lessons on electrical systems.
Cogeneration - or, rather, generating electricity to meet your own demand
and selling (or trying to sell) the surplus to the power company. First of
all, this really only makes sense from an industrial or commercial point of
view. Typically, large companies like refineries, paper mills - places
where you have a source of power readily available (i.e. water, steam, or
natural gas) that's associated with your primary business.
To put power back into the system, for profit, however, will require you to
meet all codes and regulations that the utility requires. Once this is
done, you will arrange for revenue metering equipment (*much* more
sophisticated than typical house meters) to be installed (perhaps at your
expense), and arrange a contract with the utility. Depending upon the laws
in force at the time, Cogneration can be profitable, but right now, for
instance, in New York State, independently owned cogeneration plants are
shutting down because whatever legally mandated minimum rate for power used
to exist, no longer exists. The utility can offer to pay you less than what
it costs you to produce the electricity, and if they have excess generating
capacity, *they will*. In fact, I'm seeing that happen right now with one
of the customers I deal with. You can WIN, but it can be a hollow victory.
Back to the infinite bus. Is it really infinite? Well, for a large power
grid you'll see some units, typically hydro-turbines, kept online and
producing a small amount of power. This is what's called "spinning
reserve". For increases in load, these generators pick it up almost
instantly because of their fast mechanical time constants. It is available,
on tap, and is created virtually "out of nowhere". The fluctuations in
voltage, when load is added, by the way, are designed to be resisted because
of generator design (damper windings, advanced control systems, power system
stabilizers). If you don't do this the system destabilizes and protective
devices (relays and breakers) designed to protect against damaging faults,
cannot act reliably because of these "nuisance" trips.
The voltage does rise within a fraction of a second. Usually less than one
cycle - or about 17ms.
How close is sytem frequency to nominal? Take Ontario Hydro - something
like 42GW (42,000 MW) of generation. The largest single generator is
something like 800MW, limited not by size of construction, but by stability
- remember for it to be an infinite bus, the largest generator (or load)
has to be a small percentage of the total. With such a system, frequency is
kept to within 0.05 Hz, as you lose stability if it deviates much past 0.1Hz
from nominal. When system frequency drops too far (about 57Hz, which is a
real disaster), load is shed based upon priority. Industrial/commercial
customers get cheaper power if they are one of the first to be dropped out.
Over time, however, the utility keeps track of these changes in frequency
and will run the system over, or under, frequency, to integrate the error
back to zero. It's kept track with a clock, and corrections are made when
the error is more than 3 seconds over the course of 24 hours.
When someone says that the system frequency is never exactly 60Hz (or
whatever nominal is in your part of the world), really doesn't know what
they are talking about, or they're being pedantic to the point where they
consider 60.000001 to be "not exactly 60". Great pains are taken to keep
this at nominal value - to within 0.01 Hz is considered "close enough", as
so much of system stability is tied to frequency. At the residential level,
voltage will be virtually rock-solid at nominal, because of over-rating in
the distribution transformers. (Again, for the pedantic, there's the
concept of regulation, and how a good system will have full-load and no-load
voltages very close. This I'll leave.)
As far as what happens when you turn on a light and the effect ripples out
(albeit a long way) to the generators, where this makes very small ripples
indeed, you must consider that at the same time, someone else is turning a
light off. When demand increases during, say, the morning, when everyone is
running appliances and lights to get ready for work, the spinning reserve
takes care of this, and at my house, the voltage is 125.0V plus or minus
0.2, just about 99% of the time. I took a power system analyzer home once
and let it collect data for a week. Surprisingly little difference.
One last note : in countries and regions with smaller power systems, radial
networks (no grid redundancy), and other differences, this will not be true.
Third world countries have electrical systems with much wider voltage and
frequency fluctuations. Load-shedding is a common thing, as the collapse of
the whole system must be avoided even at the risk of offending a lot of
residential customers.
-Mike Woloch
remove GREEN from e-mail address to reply
David Lesher
cr...@boot.disk (Reed Error) writes:
>But what's this about "giving back" to the power company? I've heard
>of the concept, but it strikes me wrongly to think that you can
>generate your own power, feed it back into the power lines, somehow
>meter it, and charge the power company (heh) for the product.
ISTM it's required by one of the energy conservation acts....
David Lesher
"Clive D.W. Feather" <cl...@on-the-train.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Not here. The normal arrangements is that lights are on one or two bus
>or tree shaped arrangements, while sockets are wired into one or more
>rings (hence "ring main"). Each bus, tree, or ring is fed from a
>separate fuse or breaker at the consumer unit.
There are several consequences:
With the ring, there is actually 2 parallel conductors
supplying power, roughly doubling the available current.
At 230v, current to deliver the same power is half that of
the US's 120v.
So large devices such as heaters [""electric fire""] can be plugged
into ordinary outlets. Here, heaters are more limited in size.
To support this, the ring is wired with heavier wire, and protected
at a higher current level. {I'm interested in exactly what size
this is, Clive...}. The US has 20amp [2400 watt] circuits with most
plugs capable of 1800 watts. Then the individual appliances have
appropriate-sized fuses hidden in their plugs. Overall, a sensible
and elegant arrangement.
David "How did you keep Lucas from screwing it up?" Lesher
danny burstein
>Really? Surprising. Typically in North America houses are wired with whole
>rooms - lights and sockets - coming from the same breaker or fuse. Each one
>has benefits and disadvantages, as it's confusing as to which circuit you
>turn off when you have, say, three rooms wired up from only two circuits.
Slight change: National Electrode Code revision [mumble mumble, can't find
my copy] says that the lights should be on a separate circuit from the
outlets. That way, when you plug in one too many monitors and trip the
breaker, you don't lose your lights.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
hot...@spambegonewhidbey.net
In article <34E10B...@anet-stl.com>, eve...@anet-stl.com says...
> Turns out that (unless a modified watt-hour
> meter is installed that is prevented mechanically from turning
> backward) if you feed power into the grid from your own generator,
> the meter will rotate backwards. The people doing this thought it
> should be thier right to "save up" power in this fashion for a "rainy
> day". The power cos objected to buying power for the same price they
> were selling it for. I don't recall what the outcome was....
>
> > electricity into the grid.
>
Another reason power companies don't like this: if your generator is co-
generating (feeding into the grid) when a power line is down, the repair
crews are at risk of electrocution from the electricity that you are
generating. At proper co-generating or merely emergency-generating system
has a way of being automatically isolated from the grid when the grid is
damaged.
--
L. Nino
-- You can blame everything on me this year.
hot...@spambegonewhidbey.net
In article <34E1EF...@nf.GREEN.acres.com>, mwo...@nf.GREEN.acres.com
gave us "Lessons in electricity metering".
And fine lessons they were... But tampering with meter is much more
illegal than difficult.
Example: during the construction of our new house last year, one of the
workers damaged the glass shell on the meter. Our builder notified the
power company, but they took weeks to get there with a replacement (and
months later didn't realize that they had finally replaced it).
When the damaged meter was in place, power continued to flow (we had
electric heaters in place for the sheetrock & interior painting trades).
But the meter did not spin, and the dials did not move, because a piece
of glass had landed on the wheel, and stopped it from spinning. This
amounted to free power. I removed the glass, and the electricity
continued to flow, and the dials showed usage. I replaced the glass
(jamming the wheel), and the electricity continued to flow, but the dials
showed no usage.
With that clue, you would-be meter-hackers can devise a way to land in
jail. Yes, I removed the glass, and liberated the wheel.
hot...@spambegonewhidbey.net
In article <34E2CAF4...@newenterprises.com>,
gor...@newenterprises.com says...
> Actually it was said that turning the entire meter upside down would
> cause
> it to reverse, which is true of older meters, which comprise the
> majority
> of power meters in the US. Some newer meters have a ratcheting mechanism
> to prevent this.
>
> Take a look at Deja News in the group comp.home.automation for an thread
> titled "Calling all PowerLine Gurus..." There are several accounts of
> people who have fliped the meter upside down to reverse the meter. This
> is
> a common (and illegal) practice at construction sites.
>
When I was an electrician (25+ years ago) we installed the meter upside
down to shut off the flow of electricity. Upside down was OFF, Rightside
up was ON. I don't know if that's changed on newer meters.
Ben Walsh
Cambias wrote:
>
> Rub a cat. If you do it right you'll also hear a soothing buzzing noise.
Yes. You're electrostatically charging the feline by producing cations.
ben "sorry" w.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't need my junkie friends | ben walsh
all knockin on my door | benw at iona dot com
I just wanna do an old time waltz | http://bounce.to/heretic
with a buxom Irish whore" -- shane |
cmw32
Gorilla <gor...@newenterprises.com> wrote:
I KNOW, okay? Here goes for the fourth time. The more equipment you
have switched on in your house, the HARDER it is for the power company
to push electrons into your hosue and pull them back out again. This
causes mechanical resistance in the power co's turbine genrators, so
they have to use a certain amount of fuel to keep the generator
turning at 60Hz or 50Hz (depending on the mains frequency in your
country).
cmw32
"Clive D.W. Feather" <cl...@on-the-train.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <34E1EF...@nf.GREEN.acres.com>, Mike Woloch
><mwo...@nf.GREEN.acres.com> writes
>>Lessons in electricity metering.
>
>Interesting and detailed. Now for my ObTWIAVBP bit. The following
>applies to those parts of the UK who have rewired the house since square
>pin plugs became usual.
I'm not sure whether you realised this but the original poster (Mike
Woloch) was writing from the US and talking about the arrangement
there, which appears to be quite different from ours. Most of their
stuff runs at 120V but they apparently have a second 120V feed in
reverse polarity so that some heavy appliances can get 240V, which is
more efficient since it reduces the current and hence the power lost
in the supply cables to the house and inside it.
>>Your house gets two incoming feeds. Each
>>is at a potential of 120V to ground.
>
>Your house gets an incoming pair - live and neutral. There is a 230V AC
>[EU] difference between them. The neutral is somewhere near earth (it's
>grounded at the substation or such like). The houses in the street
>normally tap of the three phases in sequence.
>
>>the system frequency of 60Hz
>
>50Hz.
>
>>Of course, when you add a heavy load onto a single circuit in your house,
>>you will see *some* voltage drop, but only on the local level (ever turn
>>on a hair dryer and see the bathroom lights on the same circuit dim?
>
>Not here. The normal arrangements is that lights are on one or two bus
>or tree shaped arrangements, while sockets are wired into one or more
>rings (hence "ring main"). Each bus, tree, or ring is fed from a
>separate fuse or breaker at the consumer unit.
>
>>Now as for stopping the meter and getting free electricity, well, it's not
>>a question of simply reversing the leads.
>[...]
>>it's not funny to
>>know how this works and see people talk about turning the meter upside
>>down. Turn a clock upside down and tell me which way it runs...
>
>If you take one (used to be) common design of meter, there are three
>contacts in a row: live in, neutral, live out. Turning it upside down
>means that the current coil is reversed, but not the voltage coil. Thus
>the integrated power is reversed as well:
>
> Normal setup Inverted setup
>
> +-+-+ +-+-+
> | | | meter meter | | |
> | V C coils coils C V |
> | | | | | |
> O O O O O O
> L ----O O O---- L L ----O O O---- L
>Street | House Street | House
> N ------+------ N N ------+------ N
>
>In the normal setup, the current flows the same way in both coils at all
>times. In the inverted setup, it flows the opposite way in the two coils
>at all times. Gearing or other designs of connector can solve this, of
>course.
>
>[EU] This used to be 240V, and is being fiddled with, probably by the
>European Union.
In fact the standard says 230V +/- 10%, so neither the UK nor the rest
of Europe has had to change their supply voltage AT ALL. Both 240V
(British Standard) and 220V (old European standard) are within 10% so
all appliances which are designed for 10% tolerance will work on both.
There was a huge argument about this several years ago when papers
like the Sun were claiming that all our motors would run slower and
all our lights would be dimmer because the EU was meddling in our
affairs again, and they (crap newspapers) were generally made to look
stupid and came out with egg all over their faces when they were
proved totally wrong.
Ciao, Chris.
Ken Smith
In article <34e44f58....@news.cl.cam.ac.uk>,
the.jackal <cmw32 @ NOSPAM.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
[....]
>I KNOW, okay? Here goes for the fourth time. The more equipment you
>have switched on in your house, the HARDER it is for the power company
>to push electrons into your hosue and pull them back out again.
So that makes it a total of 4 times you have posted this incorrect idea.
The more equipment you turn on the easier it is for the electrons to be
pushed in and out, so more of them are pushed in and out, so more work is
done.
P = I * E * COS(angle)
P Is power in average Watts
I Is the current in RMS Amps
E Is the electromotive force in RMS Volts
angle Is the phase between V and I
Dave Garland
"Clive D.W. Feather" wrote in a message to All:
"DWF> [EU] This used to be 240V, and is being fiddled with,
"DWF> probably by the European Union.
The suggestion that corrupt bureaucrats are stealing the missing 10V,
however, is almost certainly an UL. Overhead losses in the bureaucracy
probably account for it.
Mike Lee
Not at all. I believe bureaucrats should be given the full 240V.
mikey
cmw32
Ken Smith <kens...@rahul.net> wrote:
OK, you're right. I'm sorry.
Ciao, Chris.
= Chris Wilson (the.jackal) "veni vidi vixie" = cm...@cam.ac.uk =
Lon Stowell
Ben Walsh <be...@iona.nospam.please.we'reirish.com> wrote:
>Cambias wrote:
>>
>> Rub a cat. If you do it right you'll also hear a soothing buzzing noise.
>
>Yes. You're electrostatically charging the feline by producing cations.
>
But if you only rub once, do you get anion?
>ben "sorry" w.
Not yet, but I suspect you will be before this dies out.
Simon Slavin
> [comparing UK electric mains wiring with that of the US]
>
> With the ring, there is actually 2 parallel conductors
> supplying power, roughly doubling the available current.
>
> At 230v, current to deliver the same power is half that of
> the US's 120v.
During the seventies, the UK completed an entire overhaul of the
standards for electric wiring which changed everything physical,
but left the standards for amps and volts pretty much alone. At
that time, we got thicker wiring, fuses in plugs, and new
standards for wiring insulation and what was allowed to exist in
a fusebox. All domestic plugs and sockets are now rated to be
able to handle anything up to 13 amps. If you don't want 13 amps,
you put a smaller fuse in the plug.
> So large devices such as heaters [""electric fire""] can be plugged
> into ordinary outlets. Here, heaters are more limited in size.
Standard big electric heaters when I was growing up (i.e. before
wide-spread use of central heating) had three one-kilowatt bars
and a standard 13 amp fuse in the plug. You usually had two
switches, one of which controlled one bar, and the other of which
controlled the other two. This taught me binary at an early age.
(Check: 13 amps x 240 volts = 3,120 watts,
so drawing 3,000 watts wouldn't blow the fuse.)
A heater with all three bars on supplied enough warmth for a
medium size room in all but the coldest winters. If you needed
more heat than that you probably wouldn't have been able to afford
the power bill anyway, so you just went to bed.
> To support this, the ring is wired with heavier wire, and protected
> at a higher current level. {I'm interested in exactly what size
> this is, Clive...}.
The wiring-in-the-walls usually has a diameter of around three
millimeters. Fuses in a fusebox vary between 5 amps and 45 amps
depending on what that circuit's being used for. Most residential
circuits stop at 30 amps, and 45 amps can be found at offices.
Domestic electric cookers usually have a seperate circuit. I've
no idea how much current they use.
> The US has 20amp [2400 watt] circuits with most
> plugs capable of 1800 watts.
Which means that, from what I've read, hundreds of US students
every year destroy hairdriers and blow fuses when they move to
student accomodation with different power to that used at home.
Simon.
--
Simon Slavin -- Computer Contractor. | Urban "phenomena"? WTF are urban
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | "phenomena"? Street lamps? --
Check email address for UBE-guard. | mp...@panix.com (Madeleine Page)
My s/ware deletes unread >3 UBEs/day.| Junk email not welcome at this site.
Cyberangel
What do you think about an Atomic"Home"EnergiePlant?:-)
Tony Reeves
Adam Stouffer wrote:
>
> >
> > Wait a minute, does that mean that the electric company is charging ME for
> > the electric power to run THEIR meter wheel motor to determine how much to
> > charge me each month?
> >
>
> Yep. for the 1/20 of a watt that it uses.
>
No, if the meter is calibrated correctly it will rotate in proportion to
the energy going out of the meter, not the energy going in.
Regards
Tony
Tony Reeves
the.jackal wrote:
> So how _does_ a meter register how hard it is to push electrons
> through a circuit? A meter can definitely run backwards because if you
> _generate_ your own power, i.e. your house generates more power than
> it uses so you become a net "exporter" and you're helping the power
> company to push those elctrons into high-resistance circuits, then
> your meter WILL run backwards and the power company is legally obliged
> to pay you for the power you generate at the going rate :-)
>
I used to work for a Supply Authority a few years ago in New Zealand and
did a bit of work on meters etc. There are three ways I know of to make
the meter run backwards...
One, generate energy on your side of the meter and feed it back into the
grid.
Two, connect the meter in reverse
Three, some old, low capacity meters would go backwards if they were
overloaded. Probably be hard to find such a beast around now.
The most common hack to get cheap or free power is to interupt the
neutral, or black wires, into the meter. I have seen some interesting
ways of doing this and if it is done well it can be hard to spot. Done
well includes letting the meter run for at least part of the time until
the meter is read. Otherwise it is a dead give away when the meter
shows no power used but the house or whatever is clearly being used.
Note that I do not in any way condone such hacks. They are almost
certainly illegal in your part of the world and are potentially
dangerous to life and property.
Regards
Tony
Tony Reeves
Mike Woloch wrote:
>
> The whole business of the infinite bus and AC power, is by and large, too
> much information for knowing how to defeat the billing system of the local
> electric utility. It's hard to find references for it, even in many
> know how this works and see people talk about turning the meter upside
> down. Turn a clock upside down and tell me which way it runs...
Many meters will slow down or even stop if turned upside down - simply
because the bearings, which are low friction due to the very small
turning forces generated, do not work well unless the meter is the right
way up. However to remove the mounting screws to turn the meter over
will almost certainly mean that you have to remove at least one set of
seals. Also if the meter reader comes around while the meter is
inverted they will probably notice something wrong ;=).
Regards
Tony
Tony Reeves
Cambias wrote:
>
> Rub a cat. If you do it right you'll also hear a soothing buzzing noise.
>
You could also try standing outside during a lightning storm. You will
increase your chances by standing on a tall building or a hill and
holding a long metalic rod in the air. I understand that your chances
of success will be better than winning a major lottery - and many people
invest in that probability.
Regards
Tony
Tony Reeves
hot...@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net wrote:
>
> When I was an electrician (25+ years ago) we installed the meter upside
> down to shut off the flow of electricity. Upside down was OFF, Rightside
> up was ON. I don't know if that's changed on newer meters.
>
Would that have been a DC supply? DC meters used a mercury bearing
which also was part of the electrical circuit. With the meter upside
down the mercury would flow out of the conducting path.
Regards
Tony
David Lesher
Tony Reeves <to...@ihug.co.nz> writes:
>However to remove the mounting screws to turn the meter over
>will almost certainly mean that you have to remove at least one set of
>seals. Also if the meter reader comes around while the meter is
>inverted they will probably notice something wrong ;=).
We had to pull a bigger feed from the meter to one of the mains [1]
at a friend's house under construction. After pondering, we broke
the seal, pulled the meter, removed the old 1-0 Alum. and installed
the new, bigger copper.
Figuring there might be ...some static... from the utility, we also
spraypainted the box exterior to match the house. "We did not want
to get paint all over the meter, Mr. Utility.." was what we would
tell 'em.
We left the seal on top of the box. That was 2+years ago. The seal
is still there. No questions.
Ob-UL: F--the meter reader is ever vigilent.
Oh, by the way, as I recall, installing the meter upside down
in this kind of base left the load side dead. This shielded the
still-hot line side terminals.
Note: I don't recommend the backyard electrician even think of such.
But I took precautions so that even the paranoid-me was happy.
[1] I was surprised that the house could have >1 disconnect. In
this case, there is the ordinary main panel, and the Line-OFF-Gen
transfer switch feeding the emergency loads panel. But it passed
inspection, after the inspector dug through the code.
Gorilla
Sorry dude, I just can't let this thread die with you being 100% wrong.
Xaos wrote:
>
> Ok, I realize this may be a bit off-topic (at least in alt.2600) but I'm
> just a bit ticked at all this stupidity over electric meters (and since
> getting electricity for free is, in some deranged way, a form of hacking...)
I'll agree with that much.
> Someone has said that turning the disc upside down will cause it to reverse.
> This has been answered with, no, it won't. You are correct. It won't
> change direction.
Actually it was said that turning the entire meter upside down would
cause it to reverse, which is true of older meters, which comprise the
majority of power meters in the US. Some newer meters have a ratcheting
mechanism to prevent this.
Take a look at Deja News in the group comp.home.automation for an thread
titled "Calling all PowerLine Gurus..." There are several accounts of
people who have fliped the meter upside down to reverse the meter. This
is a common (and illegal) practice at construction sites.
There is also a legal and sometimes profitable way of running your meter
backwards. It's called cogeneration. If you had a LARGE generator or
other device (windmill, solar, etc..) powering your house, and you have
the ability to generate excess, the utility company MUST, by law, buy
it from you at a rate near what they charge you. Cogeneration requires
special power handleing equipment. The phase of the power must match
that
of the utility. All generation equipment must be on your side of the
meter.
If you generate more than you use, the excess will be fed to the local
power
grid, and YOUR METER WILL TURN BACKWARDS. Now considering that the
difference
in potentials will turn it backwards in this legal situation, the same
difference would exist if you were not cogenerating and had fliped your
meter
around.
> Think about it. If I put a tire on my car with the inside of the tire facing
> outward, will my car eternally drive in reverse?
This is a STUPID analogy that you did NOT think about. If you look at a
tire from the passinger side while the car is moving forward it will
turn
clockwise. However if you move that same tire to the driver side (like
when you have your tires rotated) and drive forward it turns
counterclockwise.
Is it broken? Are we breaking the laws of physics? Did you honestly
think that moving the tire an any manner would change the direction the
car will drive? I hope not.
> Also, there's been some argument about the disc being aluminum and that
> magnets will cause it to slow down. Problem with this is that yes, the disc
> is aluminum and no, magnets won't affect it.
Now ya went and did it. You made me dig out about 25 pounds of physics
books. Strong magnet and aluminum block (or copper, or nickel) make no
interaction unless they are moved. This can be very dramatic with strong
fields. This is true whether you have a fixed magnet and you move the
aluminum, or have an alternating magnetic field and 'fixed' piece of
aluminum. See Lenz's Law.
> So, it has been asked, how does the disc turn? This is stupid.
I sure is. You should have looked for the answer before posting and
making a TOTAL fool out of yourself.
> How does my car tire turn?
In your case you probally have to get out every few blocks and wind it
up again.
> Magnets?? Nada. A "motor"...oooooo, I know, it's amazing, but yes,
> it's being turned by a motor. Thus, we have electricity turning a motor.
> This isn't a new concept, people.
And where is the motor jack ass? Did you ever stop to think the aluminum
disk IS the motor? Well, it is. It's called an induction motor. It works
like this: (paraphrased from The Feynman Lectures On Physics, Vol II,
Sec 17, page 7. Go look it up.)
"(An) electromagnet, consisting of a bundle of laminated iron sheets
wound with a solenoidal coil, is powered with alternating current from
a generator. [AC mains] The magnet produces a varying flux through the
aluminum disk. If we cover one-half of the magnet pole with an aluminum
plate, the disk begins to rotate, and we have a motor. The operation
depends on two eddy-current effects."
"First, the eddy-currents in the aluminum plate oppose the change of
flux through it, so the magnetic field above the plate always lags
the field above that half of the pole which is not covered. This
so-called 'shaded-pole' effect produces a field which in the 'shaded'
region varies much like that in the unshaded region except that it is
delayed a constant amount in time. The whole effect is as if there were
a magnet only half as wide which is continually being moved from the
unshaded region toward the shaded one. Then the varying fields interact
with the eddy currents in the disc to produce the torque on it."
In many meters it is possible to see this EXACT arangement. A laminated
iron core with a coil of wire wraped around it mounted above or below
the edge of the aluminum disk. On some meters it is possible to see the
gear that drives the clock like meters.
If your still having a hard time believeing, ask yourself this:
What possible use is there in having a little aluminum disc spinning in
HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of power meters?
> By the way, do any of you actually KNOW any electricians?
Yes. I have several family members who are electricians going back two
generations.
> They could explain all of this to you (probably a little more technical
> than me, too).
Probally not. Most electricians don't know much more than how to wire
and install. Major contractors like those that do big industrial
installs
might.
> Ok, subject is CLOSED, how about we alt.2600ers talk about real hacking for
> a change, shall we?
You don't call this hacking? Hacking is diging for information, and
finding and exploiting weakness in systems. I have done just that, and I
could go on. For the past four years or so, SCE has been testing an
electronic meter at my house. This isn't just one with an LCD display,
it still has the conventional dials, but it also has an embeded
computer,
complete with modem (connects to the regular phone like) and a
bidirectional IR link. I was there when it was installed and I grilled
the
guy about it.
For the first year the guy came out with an electronic clipboard similar
to the ones the FedEx guys have. He's point it at the meter and press a
button. Then he would check the dials against what the computer said. I
haven't
seen anyone come read the meter for some time now. Realize this lets
them do
something that could never be done before. Monitor useage by time. Do we
use more during the day or night? Knowing that people use more
electricity
during the day could give them an excuse to jack daytime rates, or vice
versa.
They can record stats based on daily, hourly, half hourly, 15 minute
useage, and once a month the meter quietly calls up and dumps what it
knows. Big
brother isn't (and has never been) the government, it's big business.
> And alt.folklore.urban can get back to talking about urban folklore. Thanks.
I'd say this has all been rather urban. As for folklore, they'll be
talking about Xaos and how wrong he was and what an ass he made out of
himself.
Tuck you tail between your legs and find a nice rock to hide under.
> "You can learn a lot from a dummy..." - safety belt PSA
Unless that dummy is you.
- Gorilla
Lee Rudolph
wb8...@netcom.com (David Lesher) writes:
>We had to pull a bigger feed from the meter to one of the mains [1]
>at a friend's house under construction. After pondering, we broke
>the seal, pulled the meter, removed the old 1-0 Alum. and installed
>the new, bigger copper.
...
>Note: I don't recommend the backyard electrician even think of such.
>But I took precautions so that even the paranoid-me was happy.
Granted that you were a bit worried that The Utility wouldn't like
your removing the meterseal, I'm surprised you dared to take out
the substation up the road just for your own convenience.
Lee "have you noticed lots of 15-month-olds in the neighborhood,
or weren't you the only one who took precautions?" Rudolph
Ken Smith
In article <34e55754...@206.184.139.132>,
Mercenary PGP ROT 13 <gnp...@vpbz.VFHPX.arg> wrote:
[....]
>I just got an idea, what happens if you jump various capacitors
>between two of the wires of the electric meter? It seems that should
>change the phase between voltage and current and do something. If you
>tune it right, you could possibly stop the rotation of the disk.
To stop the meter you need to shift the phase of the current by exactly 90
degrees. A capacitor draws its current at 90 degrees to the voltage. If
there is any in phase current being drawn, no amount of current at 90
degrees will make the total current be at 90 degrees.
Legacy "Xunker"
Mercenary PGP ROT 13 wrote:
[[snip]]
> > P = I * E * COS(angle)
> >
> > P Is power in average Watts
> > I Is the current in RMS Amps
> > E Is the electromotive force in RMS Volts
> > angle Is the phase between V and I
this *is* the correct formulae, so says Uglies Book.
> I just got an idea, what happens if you jump various capacitors
> between two of the wires of the electric meter? It seems that should
> change the phase between voltage and current and do something. If you
> tune it right, you could possibly stop the rotation of the disk.
wouldn't it be easier to use a Tron boc, ur just pull a flipsie on you
power meter?
-LX
system UNDERPRIVELIGED
On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, the.jackal wrote:
> Adam Stouffer <te...@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> So how _does_ a meter register how hard it is to push electrons
> >> through a circuit?
> >
> >The in coming ac goes through a few turns of some bus bar which is
> >wrapped
> >around an iron core of a motor. The motor speed depends on how much
> >current
> >is flowing thru the bar. If you are pulling a lot of current then the
> >magnetic
> >field generated by the bar will be stronger making the motor spin
> >faster. Have
> >you ever taken an old electric meter apart? I took one from an old house
> >they
> >were going to tear down. Would make a nice decoration for my wall.
>
> You don't DRAW any current when you're working with AC. As much
> current goes back down the wire as came in. The only thing that's
> important is how HARD it is to push electrons into or out of a house.
> The more "power" you are using, the harder it becomes to push tose
> electrons through your house, so the more fuel has to be burned in the
> power station to keep the generator going at the same speed. A device
> like the one you are talking about would always register zero, or
> always run at the same speed regardless of how much power was actually
> being used.
>
> If you wire the motor between live (from power supply) and live (to
> your house) then it would always register zero because just as much
> current goes out as comes in. If you wire it between live (incoming)
> and neutral, then it would always run at the same speed regardless of
> how much power you were using. The only thing that changes is, if you
> are drawing more power, more electrons per second go in _and_ come out
> of your house. Maybe there is a one-way gearing system so that the
> disc cannot go backwards; but then reversing it would have no effect
> and if you pumped power back into the grid then you would be charged
> for it.
>
> Ciao, Chris.
> == Chris "veni vidi vixie" Wilson (the.jackal) cm...@cam.ac.uk ==
> - Webmaster, Nielsen McNally (http://www.nielsen-mcnally.co.uk) -
>
ok, so in this scenerio, what happens to The current going back to the
electric co if you just stick the live wire (outbound from the house) to
the ground? So no current goes back to the electric co...? It would seem
that if it doesn't go back to them, you couldn't be charged for current.
Granted, I don't know much of anything about electronics, or how
electricity works, but it seems at least from a layman's point of view a
plausable solution.
Gorilla
Mercenary PGP ROT 13 wrote:
>
>
> I just got an idea, what happens if you jump various capacitors
> between two of the wires of the electric meter? It seems that should
> change the phase between voltage and current and do something. If you
> tune it right, you could possibly stop the rotation of the disk.
Give it a try and let us know. Start with a 100 pf disc cap.
cmw32
system UNDERPRIVELIGED <jmv...@osfmail.isc.rit.edu> wrote:
Ther isn't a live wire coming out of your house for the electrons to
go back to the generating company. The electrons are pushed into your
house down one wire and then pulled out again down the same wire. If
you broke the circuit and stopped the electrons going back to the
power company, then your appliances wouldn't work properly becuase
there would be nothing to pull the electrons back out of them with,
and it's the back-and-forth motion of electrons which makes things
work.
Ciao, Chris.
= Chris Wilson (the.jackal) "veni vidi vixie" = cm...@cam.ac.uk =
- Webmaster, Nielsen McNally (http://www.nielsen-mcnally.co.uk) -
John Ritson
In article <34E2D1F8...@newenterprises.com>, Gorilla
<gor...@newenterprises.com> writes
>the.jackal wrote:
>>
>> You don't DRAW any current when you're working with AC. As much
>> current goes back down the wire as came in.
>
>for anything. Furthermore, you'd get nothing out of it.
>They're not exactly renting the stuff you know.
>
>If 100% of what went it, came back out, where does the work come
>from? You need to read up on conservation of energy.
Returning to urban legends, I vaguely recall (how's that for a cite?)
a story about a judge in Mexico acqitting someone who 'unofficially'
connected to the mains supply of theft because the judge could not be
persuaded that anything tangible was actually taken from the electricity
supplier.
John
Demosthenes
[SNIP]
> ok, so in this scenerio, what happens to The current going back to the
>electric co if you just stick the live wire (outbound from the house) to
>the ground? So no current goes back to the electric co...? It would seem
>that if it doesn't go back to them, you couldn't be charged for current.
>Granted, I don't know much of anything about electronics, or how
>electricity works, but it seems at least from a layman's point of view a
>plausable solution.
No you don't know much about electricity/electronics. However your
admission of this (not to mention you asked a question, rather than
state a fact) makes a _very_ good point in your favor (IMHO).
Ignorance of any subject can be cured. If you are truly interested
in either of these subjects, give a good school a try. In a few years
you could surpass my level of enlightened ignorance.
1) electricity != electronics
But there are a few similarities.
2) For the electric Co., ground _does_ go back to the electric Co.
From the layman's viewpoint; the earth is a poor conductor, but since
there is a nearly infinite amount of it (from the electrons point of
view), assume it is a big wire leading straight back to the electric
Co. In fact there is a wire connected to your house, that is at the
approximate potential of earth ground leading back to the electric Co.
This is not true for a car's "ground", or many electronic "ground"
points.
3) You do bring up an interesting question that I do not know the
answer to: What happens to the power meter (240V) if you only use one
half (120V) of the feed? If you turn off everything else in your
house except a single 100W 120V light, what does the power meter read?
What happens to the power meter if you turn on a second 120V light
connected to the other side of the 240V feed? What happens if you
draw 1kW form one half, and .5kW from the other? (That doesn't read
right, but I hope you know what I mean). Anyone out there know the
answer?
Demosthenes "watch out for that ground"
Adam Stouffer
Didnt they have some box like that on the show 60 minutes? I recall
an article that showed you how to make one. I think more like a
50mF capacitor would work better.
Adam
--
__________________________
| Remove the NO-SPAM |
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Harry H Conover
David Lesher (wb8...@netcom.com) wrote:
:
: We had to pull a bigger feed from the meter to one of the mains [1]
: at a friend's house under construction. After pondering, we broke
: the seal, pulled the meter, removed the old 1-0 Alum. and installed
: the new, bigger copper.
: Figuring there might be ...some static... from the utility, we also
: spraypainted the box exterior to match the house. "We did not want
: to get paint all over the meter, Mr. Utility.." was what we would
: tell 'em.
:
: We left the seal on top of the box. That was 2+years ago. The seal
: is still there. No questions.
Evidently some power companys ane more vigilant than others with
respect to meter seals.
My main breaker failed last year and I removed the meter while
replacing it. The seal was replaced within 3-weeks, but the power
company said nothing.
Same experience some years before, when I pulled the meter to allow
installation of a new distribution panel to support central air
conditioning. The seal mysteriously re-appeared, but the power company
said nothing.
Still, had the power consumption readings been significantly reduced,
I suspect their voice would be heard.
Harry C.
p.s. In theory, you're supposed to notify the power company in advance
if you're going to break their seal. Evidently, in practice, it
really doesn't matter.
Jeremy W. Burgeson
con...@tiac.net (Harry H Conover) wrote:
>Evidently some power companys ane more vigilant than others with
>respect to meter seals.
>and
>p.s. In theory, you're supposed to notify the power company in advance
> if you're going to break their seal. Evidently, in practice, it
> really doesn't matter.
Lincoln Electric System (LES) is our lo cal power company, and
they generally take great offense to people removing the meter
seal. They have in place a system where you have to get
written permission to do it. They made a really big deal about
how, when huge sections of town were without power, any
contractor with the proper license could remove the seal, as long
as LES was notified in writing afterwards. So nice of them...
Jeremy
Clive D.W. Feather
In article <KGTHoEAZ...@jritson.demon.co.uk>, John Ritson
<jo...@jritson.demon.co.uk> writes
>Returning to urban legends, I vaguely recall (how's that for a cite?)
>a story about a judge in Mexico acqitting someone who 'unofficially'
>connected to the mains supply of theft because the judge could not be
>persuaded that anything tangible was actually taken from the electricity
>supplier.
Why bother with Mexico ? UK law has a separate offence of "Abstracting
Electricity", because nothing is actually stolen when it happens. Yes,
people did get off before this offence was created.
Clive "the long arc of the law" Feather
--
Clive D.W. Feather | Director of Software Development | Home email:
Tel: +44 181 371 1138 | Demon Internet Ltd. | <cl...@davros.org>
Fax: +44 181 371 1037 | <cl...@demon.net> |
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address |
Clive D.W. Feather
In article <wb8fozEo...@netcom.com>, David Lesher
<wb8...@netcom.com> writes
>To support this, the ring is wired with heavier wire, and protected
>at a higher current level. {I'm interested in exactly what size
>this is, Clive...}.
According to B&Q, you should use wire with 2.5mm^2 conductors. In my
house the rings are breakered at 32A.
Clive "zap" Feather
Clive D.W. Feather
In article <34e4508f....@news.cl.cam.ac.uk>, the.jackal
<cm...@NOSPAM.cam.ac.uk> writes
>>Interesting and detailed. Now for my ObTWIAVBP bit.
>I'm not sure whether you realised this but the original poster (Mike
>Woloch) was writing from the US and talking about the arrangement
>there,
Funny, I thought TWIAVBP was exempt from the BOA.
>>[EU] This used to be 240V, and is being fiddled with, probably by the
>>European Union.
>In fact the standard says 230V +/- 10%, so neither the UK nor the rest
>of Europe has had to change their supply voltage AT ALL. Both 240V
>(British Standard) and 220V (old European standard) are within 10% so
>all appliances which are designed for 10% tolerance will work on both.
As I said, the EU have been fiddling with it. It used to be 240V +/-
something.
Clive "of *course* it's the EU's fault" Feather
David Lesher
Jeremy W. Burgeson <ne...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>con...@tiac.net (Harry H Conover) wrote:
>>Evidently some power companys ane more vigilant than others with
>>respect to meter seals.
>>and
>>p.s. In theory, you're supposed to notify the power company in advance
>> if you're going to break their seal. Evidently, in practice, it
>> really doesn't matter.
In Fla, I needed to pull the meter to install a surge protector.
The CO-OP was quite nice; one they groked I knew what I was doing
and I was not pulling some fraud, they came, pulled the meter, I
wired in the protector, they dropped it back in and resealed.
Fifteen minutes including the coffee we gave 'em....
Mike Woloch
Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
>
> In article <34e4508f....@news.cl.cam.ac.uk>, the.jackal
> <cm...@NOSPAM.cam.ac.uk> writes
> >>Interesting and detailed. Now for my ObTWIAVBP bit.
> >I'm not sure whether you realised this but the original poster (Mike
> >Woloch) was writing from the US and talking about the arrangement
> >there,
Not the US. *Canada.* Very important (for me anyway) to note that I'm
not from the US.
Slight differences in distribution systems exist between the two
countries, mind you, in distribution and transmission voltages, but none
of this manifests itself at the residential level.
Large parts of North America are interconnected too - though some are
with asynchronous or DC ties.
-Mike Woloch
Remove GREEN from my e-mail address to reply.
Demosthenes
>Gorilla wrote:
>>
>> Mercenary PGP ROT 13 wrote:
>> >
>> <SNIP>
>> >
>> > I just got an idea, what happens if you jump various capacitors
>> > between two of the wires of the electric meter? It seems that should
>> > change the phase between voltage and current and do something. If you
>> > tune it right, you could possibly stop the rotation of the disk.
>>
>> Give it a try and let us know. Start with a 100 pf disc cap.
>
>Didnt they have some box like that on the show 60 minutes? I recall
Possibly. There are "boxes" for just about everything. Some of them
even work.
>an article that showed you how to make one. I think more like a
>50mF capacitor would work better.
>
>
>Adam
Hmm, what would happen?
Lets see,
Capacitive reactance = Xc = 1/(2*Pi*F*C)
so ignoring any resistive or inductive elements a 50uF cap would be:
Xc=1/(2*Pi*60*50*10E-6) = 53 Ohms
Power consumed = E^2/R
to keep things simple lets pretend Xc=R, and ignore phase
120^2/53 = 270 Watts
Better make that a _large_ (physical size, 270W should warm it up
nicely) 50uF cap. And, of course, be sure it's bi-polar.
Note:
u = micro = 10^-6 (10E-6)
m = mil = 10^-3 (10E-3)
If you really meant 50mF, that would be 5.3 Ohms and 2700 Watts.
__BIG__ capacitor!
Better yet use a 10F capacitor, no one in your neighborhood would have
to pay for their electricity (for a little while :)
Demosthenes "Watt!!??"
Demosthenes
On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:31:04 -0600, red...@tulsa.oklahoma.net (Kirk
Kerekes) wrote:
>In article <34ec8efa....@news.syspac.com>,
>Demos...@anonimity.org (Demosthenes) wrote:
>
>.
>. 3) You do bring up an interesting question that I do not know the
>. answer to: What happens to the power meter (240V) if you only use one
>. half (120V) of the feed?
>
>You get billed for the power consumed.
>
>. If you turn off everything else in your
>. house except a single 100W 120V light, what does the power meter read?
>
>100W worth of KWH.
>
>. What happens to the power meter if you turn on a second 120V light
>. connected to the other side of the 240V feed?
>
>Then the power consumed by that lamp is added to the power consumed by the
>first.
>
>. What happens if you
>. draw 1kW form one half, and .5kW from the other?
>
>You get billed for 1.5kW.
I expected that the billing would be correct. I was just hoping for a
little more information on the subject.
Demosthenes "I read it once! It has to be true"
Jim Everman
Demosthenes wrote:
>
> If you really meant 50mF, that would be 5.3 Ohms and 2700 Watts.
> __BIG__ capacitor!
Of course that only takes care of the reactive portion of the power,
assuming it's matched *exactly* right. Not much you can do about the
resistive part (lights, heaters, small appliances, radios and tvs).
--
Jim Everman mailto:eve...@Anet-STL.com
http://webusers.Anet-STL.com/~everman/
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by
stupidity.
Gorilla
bi-polar? They have drugs to help that now.
>
> Note:
> u = micro = 10^-6 (10E-6)
> m = mil = 10^-3 (10E-3)
Really glad you straightened that out.
>
> If you really meant 50mF, that would be 5.3 Ohms and 2700 Watts.
> __BIG__ capacitor!
>
I meant 100pF. I was hopeing to hear a story on the news about some
moron who burnt himself to a crisp.
> Better yet use a 10F capacitor, no one in your neighborhood would have
> to pay for their electricity (for a little while :)
10F? Yeah right. Assuming you could find one, where would you get the
forlift to move it?
David Hatunen
In article <34ef794e....@news.syspac.com>,
Demosthenes <Demos...@anonimity.org> wrote:
>Hmm, what would happen?
>
>Lets see,
>
>Capacitive reactance = Xc = 1/(2*Pi*F*C)
>so ignoring any resistive or inductive elements a 50uF cap would be:
>Xc=1/(2*Pi*60*50*10E-6) = 53 Ohms
>
>Power consumed = E^2/R
>to keep things simple lets pretend Xc=R, and ignore phase
>120^2/53 = 270 Watts
When dealing with a purely reactive circuite, you may NOT ignore phase. In
fact, with pure reactance there will be no power loss nor heating at all.
[...]
--
*********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@wco.com) ************
* Daly City California: *
* where San Francisco meets The Peninsula *
******* and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea *******
Demosthenes
I should snip this a bunch, but some of the information at the top is
pertinent to the reply. Sorry for the excessively long post.
On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:16:39 -0800, Gorilla
<gor...@newenterprises.com> wrote:
>Demosthenes wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:58:53 GMT, Adam Stouffer
>> <te...@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Gorilla wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Mercenary PGP ROT 13 wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> <SNIP>
>> >> >
>> >> > I just got an idea, what happens if you jump various capacitors
>> >> > between two of the wires of the electric meter? It seems that should
>> >> > change the phase between voltage and current and do something. If you
>> >> > tune it right, you could possibly stop the rotation of the disk.
>> >>
>> >> Give it a try and let us know. Start with a 100 pf disc cap.
>> >
>> >Didnt they have some box like that on the show 60 minutes? I recall
>> >Possibly. There are "boxes" for just about everything. Some of them
>> >even work.
>> >an article that showed you how to make one. I think more like a
>> >50mF capacitor would work better.
>> >
>> >
>> >Adam
>>
>> Hmm, what would happen?
>>
>> Lets see,
>>
>> Capacitive reactance = Xc = 1/(2*Pi*F*C)
>> so ignoring any resistive or inductive elements a 50uF cap would be:
>> Xc=1/(2*Pi*60*50*10E-6) = 53 Ohms
>>
>> Power consumed = E^2/R
>> to keep things simple lets pretend Xc=R, and ignore phase
>> 120^2/53 = 270 Watts
>>
>> Better make that a _large_ (physical size, 270W should warm it up
>> nicely) 50uF cap. And, of course, be sure it's bi-polar.
>
>bi-polar? They have drugs to help that now.
Do you have a license to prescribe said drugs? Or are you simply a
fellow patient recommending a cure to a friend?
>
>>
>> Note:
>> u = micro = 10^-6 (10E-6)
>> m = mil = 10^-3 (10E-3)
>
>Really glad you straightened that out.
I have a sense of humor (really), but it is so warped that most people
can't understand it. Conversely I often miss others humor. Are you
seriously saying that you didn't understand this? If so let me
clarify my admittedly terse short note.
"u" is used commonly in places (like this news group, where alternate
symbol sets are not available, or may not be translated well across
multiple platforms) to represent the greek letter "Mu". "Mu" is
commonly used to represent one one-millionth of some unit. (in
scientific notation that is: one times ten "raised to the power of"
(commonly expressed as X^Y) minus six) (in computer programming this
is commonly expressed as "10E-6") Or for the layman ".000001" times
some unit. (I included several of these terms just in case some,
otherwise knowledgeable, person was not familiar with one of them.)
When an english speaking person means .000001 times some unit he often
(especially in engineering circles) says "micro" (some unit) . For
example: 50 one-millionths of a Farad is usually pronounced "fifty
micro Farads"
The second line referring to "mill" is the same as the preceding
paragraph, except that it refers to one times ten "raised to the power
of" minus three (.001), etc. (If you didn't understand the preceding
paragraph, repeating it using "mil"won't help).
If you didn't understand what I meant in the "note", I hope this
helps. If you were being sarcastic, I hope you enjoyed wading through
the "long hand" explanation.
>
>>
>> If you really meant 50mF, that would be 5.3 Ohms and 2700 Watts.
>> __BIG__ capacitor!
>>
>
>I meant 100pF. I was hopeing to hear a story on the news about some
>moron who burnt himself to a crisp.
I have three points here.
1) _You_ (Gorilla) said 100 pF in your post. "Adam Stouffer" said
50mF in his post. I was replying to "Adam Stouffer" (text included)
2) Using above (text included) formulas: 100pF has a reactance of
about 26.5 million ohms. This gives a power consumption of about
.00054 Watts (easily handled by a disc cap). The probable point of
breakdown in this case would be voltage breakdown, and many, although
not all, low capacitance disc caps can handle 100 volts for a short
period. If they can't handle the voltage, they will probably "pop",
or split, causing a potentially painful but not serious injury to the
person holding it.
3) I often make comments urging people to do silly, dangerous things.
I _ALWAYS_ include in the same sentence, a disclaimer (such as; we
need more candidates for the "Darwin Awards") that should let even the
most stupid person know I am not serious. If you were joking about
"hopeing to hear a story on the news about some moron who burnt
himself to a crisp" I completely missed the punch line. If you were
being serious, you are a disgusting, sadistic, person.
>
>> Better yet use a 10F capacitor, no one in your neighborhood would have
>> to pay for their electricity (for a little while :)
>
>10F? Yeah right. Assuming you could find one, where would you get the
>forlift to move it?
See preceding point three. See preceding comment on my sense of
humor. And if you are suicidal (or use the pseudonym "Gorilla") see
Digikey catalog (PN P6956-ND) for a 3.3F capacitor (42.5mm X 15.0mm).
Merely hook three of them in parallel. No forklift required.
In case you missed _all_ of the preceding points:
Anyone who bothered to do, or was capable of doing, the math would
have seen that a 10F cap would have consumed 54.3 million Watts.
Enough to bring down a power substation. (i.e. no one in the
neighborhood would be using electricity, let alone paying for it until
the substation was reset). Of course the local transformer would have
"blown" first, and some substations may be able to handle a 50MW load
(I really don't know), but it was a _joke_, not meant to be done in
real life. (did I mention I have a warped sense of humor?).
Anyone who knew how to get the capacitors would have realized that
hooking 5.5V polarized capacitors to the power meter was not a good
idea.
If 10F 120V bi-polar capacitors were available at Radio Shack, I would
not have made the "joke" at the end of the post.
My entire post was satirical. Not 100pF, nor "50mF", nor 10F
capacitors are going to "give you free electricity".
Demosthenes "Damn that decimal point!"
Reed Error
>My entire post was satirical. Not 100pF, nor "50mF", nor 10F
>capacitors are going to "give you free electricity".
Well of COURSE not! You have to put the wadded-up balls of aluminum
foil in your gutters to attract the free-flowing static electricity
which would otherwise be wasted in the form of lightning. It helps if
you colour your gutters with a green magick marcker.
Derik Sagan
Not exactly correct
cmw32 @ NOSPAM.cam.ac.uk (the.jackal) wrote in message
<34e4b665....@news.cl.cam.ac.uk>...
>Ken Smith <kens...@rahul.net> wrote:
>
>>In article <34e44f58....@news.cl.cam.ac.uk>,
>>the.jackal <cmw32 @ NOSPAM.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
**********************SNIPPED***********
>>The more equipment you turn on the easier it is for the electrons to be
>>pushed in and out, so more of them are pushed in and out, so more work is
>>done.
>>
>> P = I * E * COS(angle)
>>
>> P Is power in average Watts
>> I Is the current in RMS Amps
>> E Is the electromotive force in RMS Volts
>> angle Is the phase between V and I
>
Using this it's possible to get negative watts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
David Hatunen
Jim Everman
Derik Sagan wrote:
>
> **********************SNIPPED***********
> >> P = I * E * COS(angle)
> >>
> >> P Is power in average Watts
> >> I Is the current in RMS Amps
> >> E Is the electromotive force in RMS Volts
> >> angle Is the phase between V and I
> >
>
> Using this it's possible to get negative watts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You got some kind of problem with that?
(free clue: cogeneration)
zum...@pib1.physik.uni-bonn.de
In article <34e55754...@206.184.139.132>, gnp...@vpbz.VFHPX.arg (Mercenary PGP ROT 13) writes:
>Ken Smith <kens...@rahul.net> wrote:
>
>>In article <34e44f58....@news.cl.cam.ac.uk>,
>>the.jackal <cmw32 @ NOSPAM.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>I just got an idea, what happens if you jump various capacitors
>between two of the wires of the electric meter? It seems that should
>change the phase between voltage and current and do something. If you
>tune it right, you could possibly stop the rotation of the disk.
>
Yep, if you turn the phase by 90 degrees before the thing, it won't turn.
>
>Mercenary PGP
>Wrath of The Soldier Hand Delivered
>--
>If we all use encryption on all our e-mail, just think how
>much effort will be wasted trying to monitor all of it!
> --- R. G. Durnal
Have fun
Harry
Clive D.W. Feather
In article <34E8BAC7...@newenterprises.com>, Gorilla
<gor...@newenterprises.com> writes
>> Better yet use a 10F capacitor, no one in your neighborhood would have
>> to pay for their electricity (for a little while :)
>10F? Yeah right. Assuming you could find one, where would you get the
>forlift to move it?
At 30 grammes, it'll be a big fork lift. If I recall correctly, they're
GBP 2.50 from Maplins.
A car battery is, what, 4 kF ? Somewhere of that order of magnitude,
anyway. And I don't need a fork lift for that.
Clive "I use something called a 'mechanic'" Feather
Lon Stowell
Stephen Terry <ter...@nospam.llnl.gov> wrote:
>
>The 40 microfarad capacitor I use in my lab is 3 feet high and weighs about 50
>pounds. The 1 millifarad capacitor bank I use takes up an entire trailer.
>Check your orders of magnitude.
There must be a special reason why your capacitors are so large.
Waaaay back in the 70's Sangamo could produce 1 Farad capacitors
that weren't much bigger than breadboxes, depending on the voltage.
I've worked on printers that have had more than 1 Farad of
capacitance on a 48 volt supply. These were banks only about
3x4 feet and less than a foot high...and would kill you if you
were stupid. Some radars of the late 60's also had big cap
banks, typically less than 20 cubic foot/farad.
Tony Reeves
zum...@pib1.physik.uni-bonn.de wrote:
>
> In article <34e55754...@206.184.139.132>, gnp...@vpbz.VFHPX.arg (Mercenary PGP ROT 13) writes:
>
> >I just got an idea, what happens if you jump various capacitors
> >between two of the wires of the electric meter? It seems that should
> >change the phase between voltage and current and do something. If you
> >tune it right, you could possibly stop the rotation of the disk.
> >
>
> Yep, if you turn the phase by 90 degrees before the thing, it won't turn.
>
current 90 degrees out of phase of volts. No matter how many Farads you
use. You might be able to generate 25 Mega Volt Amps but if you are
using 25 watts then you will not achieve 90 degrees (at least not quite)
and the meter will register the 25 watts, at least in the 25
microseconds before it explodes and vaporises :=).
Regards
Tony
Stephen Terry
In article <W7P8qPAv...@romana.davros.org>, "Clive D.W. Feather" <cl...@demon.net> wrote:
>In article <34E8BAC7...@newenterprises.com>, Gorilla
><gor...@newenterprises.com> writes
>>> Better yet use a 10F capacitor, no one in your neighborhood would have
>>> to pay for their electricity (for a little while :)
>>10F? Yeah right. Assuming you could find one, where would you get the
>>forlift to move it?
>
>At 30 grammes, it'll be a big fork lift. If I recall correctly, they're
>GBP 2.50 from Maplins.
>
>A car battery is, what, 4 kF ? Somewhere of that order of magnitude,
>anyway. And I don't need a fork lift for that.
The 40 microfarad capacitor I use in my lab is 3 feet high and weighs about 50
pounds. The 1 millifarad capacitor bank I use takes up an entire trailer.
Check your orders of magnitude.
Stephen Terry "Physicists do not shoot other
ter...@llnl.gov physicists." Samuel Goudsmit
Anno Siegel
Gorilla <gor...@newenterprises.com> wrote in alt.folklore.urban:
>10F? Yeah right. Assuming you could find one, where would you get the
>forlift to move it?
There are 1F capacitors on the market, disks of about 1'' x 1/4''.
These take only 5V so you'd have to connect 22 of them in series
for a 1/22F capacitor that can take 110V. 220 of these chains in
parallel gives you 10F/110V, a total of 4840 capacitors. A medium
size briefcase should hold them all, no forklift needed.
Anno "capacity" Siegel
Gorilla
Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
>
> At 30 grammes, it'll be a big fork lift. If I recall correctly, they're
> GBP 2.50 from Maplins.
>
> A car battery is, what, 4 kF ? Somewhere of that order of magnitude,
> anyway. And I don't need a fork lift for that.
A battery IS NOT a capacitor. Period. It may have an equivelant
capacitance, but that doesn't make it a capacitor.
Elgon
Find some overhead power lines,
lay a coil of very thick wire (a couple of hundred turns should do it)
on/under the ground beneath
voila...
one ac power circuit, till the electricity company sees the power loss
and goes to investigate.
gaz morris
'there is madness in my method'
Stephen Terry
In article <6cdbca$1...@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com>, lsto...@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) wrote:
>Stephen Terry <ter...@nospam.llnl.gov> wrote:
>>
>>The 40 microfarad capacitor I use in my lab is 3 feet high and weighs about 50
>
>>pounds. The 1 millifarad capacitor bank I use takes up an entire trailer.
>>Check your orders of magnitude.
>
> Waaaay back in the 70's Sangamo could produce 1 Farad capacitors
> that weren't much bigger than breadboxes, depending on the voltage.
>
> I've worked on printers that have had more than 1 Farad of
> capacitance on a 48 volt supply. These were banks only about
> 3x4 feet and less than a foot high...and would kill you if you
> were stupid. Some radars of the late 60's also had big cap
> banks, typically less than 20 cubic foot/farad.
>
You're right. Mine are operated at high voltage (20kV) so they're not
designed to be small. Still the point is you're not going to be carrying
around a 10 Farad capacitor in the palm of your hand.
Elgon
Stephen Terry wrote:
> You're right. Mine are operated at high voltage (20kV) so they're not
> designed to be small. Still the point is you're not going to be carrying
> around a 10 Farad capacitor in the palm of your hand.
You can buy low-voltage caps for cmos battery backup from RS and other
electronics suppliers that will fin in the palm of your hand (~4 Farads)
Lon Stowell
In article <34EB2E...@shef.ac.uk>, Elgon <MDA9...@shef.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>You can buy low-voltage caps for cmos battery backup from RS and other
>electronics suppliers that will fin in the palm of your hand (~4 Farads)
type unit, designed for extremely low leakage when connected
to the load impedances typical of a CMOS RAM. These are typically
designed to operate that CMOS device unpowered for typical shelf
lives of 6 months or so. A farad would be massive overkill for
that design. Samples of this type are available at
www.panasonic.com.
There are some caps advertised as 1 Farad, used in specialty audio
applications, many are junk and nowhere near a farad, but there
are genuine caps in the 1 farad range available with working
voltages of 20-100...and as voltage goes up so does size. These
are usually in Miller circuits in switching type audio amps.
David Hatunen
In article <34EA9593...@newenterprises.com>,
It doesn't even have an equivalent capacitance, although I would suppose
that one can find the total Q at 12vdc required to store the same charge as
a battery might, such as 40 amp-hours. But this would be misleading since
the voltage of the battery is relatively constant over most of its
discharge time, while the capacitor voltage begins to decline immediately as
it discharges.
J Bolin
Demosthenes wrote:
> [SNIP]
> 3) You do bring up an interesting question that I do not know the
> house except a single 100W 120V light, what does the power meter read?
> draw 1kW form one half, and .5kW from the other? (That doesn't read
> right, but I hope you know what I mean). Anyone out there know the
> answer?
> Demosthenes "watch out for that ground"
-----------------------------------------------------------
Power meters read accurately from both "halves." They read
each "half" separately and sum them. In your 1kw/.5kw
scenario the meter will read 1.5kw. This sort of imbalance
is usual in residential electric service.
As regards current flow (which some posters to this thread
have wondered about), one analogy would be to compare
electric service to residential water supply. Voltage =
pressure; current = gallons per minute. The city delivers
water to a house at a certain pressure, gets that same
amount back from that same house via the sanitary and storm
sewers (neglecting evaporation), but at no pressure. The
occupant controls the flow by opening and closing valves.
The more valves are open in the house, the greater the
amount of water that flows. The supply pressure remains
constant. One way or another, the city gets back every drop
it delivers, so it doesn't need to meter the return in order
to know what the amount of that return is (this is how it
knows how big the sewers need to be).
Similarly, current (a flow of electrons) is delivered at a
voltage (i.e. pressure), and that current is returned at no
voltage. Whether that current returns via the mains neutral
wire or via the earth is immaterial, it all ends up back at
the source. The occupant controls the amount of current
flow by turning switches on and off. The supply voltage
remains constant, but the amount of current flowing varies
according to usage (demand).
The 120/120/240 volt service would be analogous to having
two city water supply lines to a house. The electric meter
for the 120/120/240 volt service would be analogous to
placing the two incoming line water meters in a common box,
with the two meters having a common, summing readout. Just
as stealing water would require the installation of pipes
bypassing the meters on the supply lines, stealing
electricity would require bypassing the electric meter from
the supply ("hot") wires; there is nothing to gain by
messing with the return lines (ground, neutral, or sewers).
Similarly there is nothing to gain by taking all water from
one supply line as opposed to taking it equally from both.
Manufacturers have been making power meters for a long, long
time. They know all the tricks that have been tried over
the years to attempt to defeat them. The only real way to
do it is with bypass jumpers, which are difficult,
dangerous, and easy to detect (not to mention the
criminality aspect). One could always break the seal,
remove the meter and install jumpers right in the meter
box. But, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the power
companies's computers monitor for suspicious changes in
consumption patterns. And removal of a modern remotely
addressable electronic meter would be instantly detected.
John
Jeff Henkels
Lon Stowell wrote in message <6cfdc5$p...@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com>...
>
> There are some caps advertised as 1 Farad, used in specialty audio
> applications, many are junk and nowhere near a farad, but there
> are genuine caps in the 1 farad range available with working
> voltages of 20-100...and as voltage goes up so does size. These
> are usually in Miller circuits in switching type audio amps.
Check out http://www.digikey.com and do a parts search for "gold capacitor";
you'll find caps ranging up to 10 Farads.
Nathan J Nagel
Excerpts from netnews.alt.folklore.urban: 18-Feb-98 Re: How do I get
electricit.. by Stephen Te...@nospam.lln
> You're right. Mine are operated at high voltage (20kV) so they're not
> designed to be small. Still the point is you're not going to be carrying
All depends on voltage.... methinks size of capacitor is determined by
amp-hours stored, as in a battery, as a 12V 1-farad cap isn't really
that big, small enough to carry in one hand, really. Rather popular
among the mega-bass car audio set.
nate
Doc Holiday
Nah I like my Geothermal setup.
-Doc Holiday
Cyberangel <xxxc...@tin.it> wrote in article
<01bd38b2$25874c80$LocalHost@9in80307>...
> What do you think about an Atomic"Home"EnergiePlant?:-)
>
Jim Everman
> you'll find caps ranging up to 10 Farads.
Yep - they sure do - 10F @ 2.5V. Well, if we assume they are
non-polorized, we'd need about 65 of them in series just to
get the working voltage up to USA standards (With NO safey
factor). Then since the capacitance adds up as a reciprical,
we'd have to parralel a bunch (hundreds) of these strings
to get the capacitance back up to a useful value ... on the
plus side, I did notice that they have a good price when you
buy them by the 1000.
I didn't get the size, but I suspect all those caps are going
to take up a fair amount of room in your garage....
Adam Stouffer
Jim Everman wrote:
>
> Jeff Henkels wrote:
> >
> > Lon Stowell wrote in message <6cfdc5$p...@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com>...
> >
> > Check out http://www.digikey.com and do a parts search for "gold capacitor";
> > you'll find caps ranging up to 10 Farads.
>
> Yep - they sure do - 10F @ 2.5V. Well, if we assume they are
> non-polorized, we'd need about 65 of them in series just to
> get the working voltage up to USA standards (With NO safey
> factor). Then since the capacitance adds up as a reciprical,
> we'd have to parralel a bunch (hundreds) of these strings
> to get the capacitance back up to a useful value ... on the
> plus side, I did notice that they have a good price when you
> buy them by the 1000.
>
> I didn't get the size, but I suspect all those caps are going
> to take up a fair amount of room in your garage....
>
Dont forget that when you connect two caps in series the voltage
is doubled but the capacitance is lowered by 1/2
Adam
--
__________________________
| Remove the NO-SPAM |
__________________________
Ken Smith
>Lets see,
>
>Capacitive reactance = Xc = 1/(2*Pi*F*C)
>so ignoring any resistive or inductive elements a 50uF cap would be:
>Xc=1/(2*Pi*60*50*10E-6) = 53 Ohms
>
>Power consumed = E^2/R
>to keep things simple lets pretend Xc=R, and ignore phase
>120^2/53 = 270 Watts
Simple, but oh so very wrong!
The resistance of the capacitor is what causes power in it. A perfect
capacitor would not heat up at all.
--
--
kens...@rahul.net forging knowledge
Ken Smith
In article <6cc65n$4...@sv11.batelco.com.bh>,
Derik Sagan <"remove_to_reply"kevin_s...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>Not exactly correct
>cmw32 @ NOSPAM.cam.ac.uk (the.jackal) wrote in message
><34e4b665....@news.cl.cam.ac.uk>...
>>
>>>In article <34e44f58....@news.cl.cam.ac.uk>,
>>>the.jackal <cmw32 @ NOSPAM.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>>The more equipment you turn on the easier it is for the electrons to be
>>>pushed in and out, so more of them are pushed in and out, so more work is
>>>done.
>>>
>>>
>>> P Is power in average Watts
>>> I Is the current in RMS Amps
>>> E Is the electromotive force in RMS Volts
>>> angle Is the phase between V and I
>>
>
>Using this it's possible to get negative watts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes! That means you are putting power back into the lines rather than
taking it out. Think about the case where the angle is 180 degrees and
you will see that this is true.
Clive D.W. Feather
>> At 30 grammes, it'll be a big fork lift. If I recall correctly, they're
>> GBP 2.50 from Maplins.
>>
>> A car battery is, what, 4 kF ? Somewhere of that order of magnitude,
>> anyway. And I don't need a fork lift for that.
>
>A battery IS NOT a capacitor. Period. It may have an equivelant
>capacitance, but that doesn't make it a capacitor.
Why not ? Particularly since the ones Maplin sells are described, if I
recall correctly, as "wet cell capacitors". A lead-acid cell looks
awfully like a 4kF electrolytic capacitor to me. And I used to program a
computer where the smoothing capacitor on the 4V supply bus *was* a
180kF battery (30 cells in series-parallel).
Clive "we accidentially dropped a screwdriver on it once" Feather
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com
In article <aeKvz2A8...@romana.davros.org>, Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
>In article <34EA9593...@newenterprises.com>, Gorilla
>>
>>capacitance, but that doesn't make it a capacitor.
>
>Why not ? Particularly since the ones Maplin sells are described, if I
a battery is electrochemical; a cap is electrostatic.
Lon Stowell
Jim Everman <eve...@anet-stl.com> wrote:
> I didn't get the size, but I suspect all those caps are going
> to take up a fair amount of room in your garage....
The gold caps are about an inch plus or minus an inch. e.g.
8 millimeters high by 24 mm wide.
Can't remember how much the streetcaps used in audio are, size
climbs pretty rapidly as DCWV goes up.
However, at typical AC power voltages, this type of capacitor has
earned the nickname "microbomb".