Catholic Church once outlawed "Devil's Tone"?
Trent Bowman
remembered a factoid I heard in college: in times ancient, the
Catholic Church had forbidden the use of the "Devil's Tone" in any
music used for Mass. I believe modern hard rockers call it a tritone.
Good examples can be found in almost any Metallica song and in "Mars,
Bringer of War". In the chord sequence Em->Bb->Em->Bb the Bb is the
tritone or Devil's Tone. Is there any fact to this claim?
LarSchmidt
WAS called the devils tone and its use was discouraged but as far as I
know it was NEVER outlawed.
It's been a looong time since I been in "survey of music history" as
part of my music major but it seems to me that the reasoning of "good"
notes/chords and "bad" notes/chords was based on the mathematical
relationship between notes For example the note "middle A" vibrates 440
times per second and going up an octave to the next A will double that
number to vibrate 880 times per second.
Certain frequencies are in sync with each other and some others will
tend to cancel each other out. The tritone is the one most out of sync.
As an aside I remember working hard to avoid the "evils" (smirk) of
tritones and parallel fifths, etc in my music theory classes only to be
told on the first day of jazz arranging "Oh forget all that crap"
There is a gregorian chant called "Media Vita" which was banned by the
Catholic Church for hundreds of years but that was for the words which
were believed to cause death not the music.
Thanks
In article <38469bb4...@news.rica.net>, tre...@trstone.com (Trent
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Dan Evans
wrote:
>I was listening to music on the way to work this morning when I
>remembered a factoid I heard in college: in times ancient, the
>Catholic Church had forbidden the use of the "Devil's Tone" in any
>music used for Mass. I believe modern hard rockers call it a tritone.
>Good examples can be found in almost any Metallica song and in "Mars,
>Bringer of War". In the chord sequence Em->Bb->Em->Bb the Bb is the
>tritone or Devil's Tone. Is there any fact to this claim?
Sounds unlikely, because the tritone (or diminished fifth) is the
basis of all tonal music. If you banned the tritone in harmony, you
would be banning pretty much everything written since the Renaissance
that isn't plainsong or Gregorian chant (i.e., modal). However, I'm
not sure what you mean by "the use" of the tritone, and whether you're
talking about harmony or melody.
In the example you give, neither the chords Em nor Bb contains a
tritone. (You would find a tritone in a chord like a Bb major
seventh, which is the dominant of the F major tonic.) However, the
interval between E and Bb is a tritone (key of F major), so it sounds
like you're talking about the use of the interval in a melody, not
harmonically.
(The tritone is important in harmony, because there is only one in any
given key. For example, the key of C has numerous major and minor
seconds, major and minor thirds, fourths, fifths, major and minor
sixths, and major and minor sevenths, but only one tritone, which is F
to B.)
The use of a tritone in a melody is very rare, simply because it is
difficult to sing (although you could probably find an example in Bach
somewhere). There are similar problems with intervals like sevenths
and ninths.
Continuing with what little more I remember from music theory, the
most famous tritone in a melody would be in Wagner's Liebestod, from
Tristan and Isolde. The tritone doesn't resolve the "right" way, and
that one passage is often used as the beginning of the end of tonal
music and the Romantic era, and the beginning of impressionism,
modernism, 12-tone music, and similar affronts to God.
**Dan Evans
**I am not your lawyer unless
**you have sent me a check.
Deborah Stevenson
On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Dan Evans wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:28:51 GMT, tre...@trstone.com (Trent Bowman)
> wrote:
>
> >I was listening to music on the way to work this morning when I
> >remembered a factoid I heard in college: in times ancient, the
> >Catholic Church had forbidden the use of the "Devil's Tone" in any
> >music used for Mass. I believe modern hard rockers call it a tritone.
> >Good examples can be found in almost any Metallica song and in "Mars,
> >Bringer of War". In the chord sequence Em->Bb->Em->Bb the Bb is the
> >tritone or Devil's Tone. Is there any fact to this claim?
>
> Sounds unlikely, because the tritone (or diminished fifth) is the
> basis of all tonal music. If you banned the tritone in harmony, you
> would be banning pretty much everything written since the Renaissance
> that isn't plainsong or Gregorian chant (i.e., modal).
Except that may be exactly the ancient Catholic church we're talking
about, and the proscription of the tritone in modal counterpoint exactly
the ban that's getting referred to.
However, I'm
> not sure what you mean by "the use" of the tritone, and whether you're
> talking about harmony or melody.
If we're talking modal counterpoint, I believe they're both verboten.
Deborah Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Dan Drake
>...
>
> The use of a tritone in a melody is very rare, simply because it is
> difficult to sing (although you could probably find an example in Bach
> somewhere). There are similar problems with intervals like sevenths
> and ninths.
Definitely in Bach, and more than _an_ example. In _Christ lag in
Todesbanden_ the bass aria "Hier is das rechte Ostelamm" has a truly
wonderful interval: on "den Tode" you drop an augmented 12th (or is it
a diminished 13th?) -- an octave plus a tritone. Leaves a permanent
mark on an amateur singer.
Makes one appreciate the simple little descending tritone in the bass
part of the final chorus in _Wachet auf_, which perhaps you wouldn't
call melody anyway.
>The most famous tritone in a melody would be in Wagner's Liebestod,
from
>Tristan and Isolde. The tritone doesn't resolve the "right" way,
Bach's little gem at least resolves sensibly, being concerned with an
entirely different sort of Liebestod.
--
Dan Drake
d...@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com
HWM
> There is a gregorian chant called "Media Vita" which was banned by the
> Catholic Church for hundreds of years but that was for the words which
> were believed to cause death not the music.
Have a sample and croak...
http://www.reliablehost.com/planetearthmusic/Chant.htm
"media vita in morte sumus"
Cheers, | De ore leonis libera me, Domine,et a |
HWM | cornibus unicornium humilitatem meam |
hen...@iobox.fi & http://www.kuru.da.ru
supertbone
were looked down upon. The catholic church did not want the use of the
tritone in hymns or chants. In later centuries this changed.
Dr H
On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Dan Evans wrote:
}On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:28:51 GMT, tre...@trstone.com (Trent Bowman)
}wrote:
}
}>I was listening to music on the way to work this morning when I
}>remembered a factoid I heard in college: in times ancient, the
}>Catholic Church had forbidden the use of the "Devil's Tone" in any
}>music used for Mass. I believe modern hard rockers call it a tritone.
}>Good examples can be found in almost any Metallica song and in "Mars,
}>Bringer of War". In the chord sequence Em->Bb->Em->Bb the Bb is the
}>tritone or Devil's Tone. Is there any fact to this claim?
}
}Sounds unlikely, because the tritone (or diminished fifth) is the
}basis of all tonal music.
That's a pretty broad statement. First of all, there is a good deal of
tonal music that is not based on the 12-tone equal temperment system
of intonation, /or/ on any sort of just intonation system in which
tritones occur.
Even if you limit discussion to western-European inspired tuning and
temperments, to call the tritone the /basis/ for the system is erroneous.
The tritone is a /consequence/ of the temperment chosen; the handling of
all possible intervals within that temperment (tritone included) forms
the basis for music composed using that system.
}If you banned the tritone in harmony, you
}would be banning pretty much everything written since the Renaissance
}that isn't plainsong or Gregorian chant (i.e., modal).
Hardly. There would still be vast bodies of Indonesian, Chinese,
Indian, Persian, Japanese music, as well as that of many other
cultures.
[...]
}(The tritone is important in harmony, because there is only one in any
}given key. For example, the key of C has numerous major and minor
}seconds, major and minor thirds, fourths, fifths, major and minor
}sixths, and major and minor sevenths, but only one tritone, which is F
}to B.)
Again, true only in 12-tone equal temperment and related systems.
}The use of a tritone in a melody is very rare, simply because it is
}difficult to sing (although you could probably find an example in Bach
}somewhere). There are similar problems with intervals like sevenths
}and ninths.
}
}Continuing with what little more I remember from music theory, the
}most famous tritone in a melody would be in Wagner's Liebestod, from
}Tristan and Isolde. The tritone doesn't resolve the "right" way, and
}that one passage is often used as the beginning of the end of tonal
}music and the Romantic era, and the beginning of impressionism,
}modernism, 12-tone music, and similar affronts to God.
"Affronts to God?"
Dr H
Nathan Tenny
Trent Bowman <tre...@trstone.com> wrote:
>I was listening to music on the way to work this morning when I
>remembered a factoid I heard in college: in times ancient, the
>Catholic Church had forbidden the use of the "Devil's Tone" in any
>music used for Mass. I believe modern hard rockers call it a tritone.
Indeed, I'd say any modern musician speaking informally might call it a
tritone. More formally, it's a diminished fifth or augmented fourth.
I've always understood that "devil's tone" or "devil's interval" was a loose
translation of the Latin "diabolus in musica". However, in the course of
looking into this matter, I've found that phrase applied both to the tritone
and to the "wolf fifth" that was an unpleasant artifact of a specific tuning
system. That meaning actually makes more sense; here's your nicely tuned
keyboard, but the devil is lurking in it, ready to spring on you in the form
of a "perfect" fifth that turns out to be quite audibly imperfect.
Maybe the original meaning of "diabolus in musica" was "any screwed-up fifth",
and the "prohibition" boiled down to "thou shalt not use intervals that
pervert the divine perfection of the fifth."
>Good examples can be found in almost any Metallica song and in "Mars,
>Bringer of War". In the chord sequence Em->Bb->Em->Bb the Bb is the
>tritone or Devil's Tone.
<PEDANTRY>
Not exactly. The tritone is an interval, not a single note or chord; the
root of the Bb chord is a, well, Bb, which is a tritone away from the E
that is the root of the preceding E-.
</PEDANTRY>
I'm being picky because the exact definition of the term is important if
we're to understand exactly what was purportedly forbidden.
One would hope, incidentally, that the intent isn't "any music containing
any two notes separated by a tritone was forbidden"; it would be a royal
pain to have to write in F without using both E and Bb, for instance. The
more likely reading is "any music containing a *vertical* tritone [e.g.,
an E and a Bb played/sung at the same time] was forbidden".
>Is there any fact to this claim?
Well, I found some partial information. On an uncredentialed Web page
(<http://media.ncp.fi/enternet/diabolus.htm>), we find the claim that the
tritone ("tritonus") is first mentioned in a 9th- or 10th-century work called
_Musica Enchiriadis_, and first forbidden at "the development of Guido of
Arezzo's hexachordal system". (The page goes on to assert that its use was
banned from then until the end of the Renaissance, and to detail some of the
lurid punishments used for violators---I've got my doubts about that part.)
In places too unremarkable to detail I found some confirmation that _Musica
Enchiriadis_ really existed and was really a major precursor to Guido of
Arezzo's work, so let's take that source as plausible for the moment and look
into Guido of Arezzo.
Guido obligingly has an extensive entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia:
(<http://www.gwsford.com/advent/cathen/07065a.htm>). It tells us that he is
basically the man behind modern musical notation, having been the first to
put together a reasonable way of notating both pitch and rhythm at the same
time, back in the eleventh century. It doesn't mention the tritone as
such, but it does make clear that he was a mover and shaker in the development
of the aesthetics of multiple voices---which would eventually become harmony
and counterpoint as we know them.
That makes it extremely plausible that he would have raised objections to
the tritone---not for religious reasons, per se, but because in the kind of
context he would have been working in---Gregorian chants in the process of
evolving into modern polyphony---it would have sounded *horrible*.
Someone with actual musicological knowledge will have to take this further.
I'd buy into the following:
1. Tritone intervals were avoided in early-medieval church music. (T.)
2. The practice of avoidance lasted into modern counterpoint. (T.)
3. The tritone's unpleasant sound contributed to this practice. (Tb.)
4. The tritone was believed to have some connection to the devil. (U.)
5. Lots of people now believe #4. (T.)
NT
--
Nathan Tenny | Words I carry in my pocket, where they
Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA | breed like white mice.
<nten...@qualcomm.com> | - Lawrence Durrell
Nick Spalding
> nor was there much Catholic presence in East Asia until the
> last couple of centuries.
Not for want of trying. The Jesuits were in China in the 1500s -
the observatory they built for the Emperor in Beijing is still
there. Around the same time a number of them attempted to convert
the Japanese, all of them were slaughtered.
--
Nick Spalding
Mark D. Lew
> Someone with actual musicological knowledge will have to take this further.
> I'd buy into the following:
>
> 1. Tritone intervals were avoided in early-medieval church music. (T.)
> 2. The practice of avoidance lasted into modern counterpoint. (T.)
> 3. The tritone's unpleasant sound contributed to this practice. (Tb.)
> 4. The tritone was believed to have some connection to the devil. (U.)
> 5. Lots of people now believe #4. (T.)
I'm pretty solid on music theory, but not so good on the history of
renaissance music. But I'll buy into those five, also.
I think we need to clarify a point which is likely to lead to confusion.
The "tritone" as discussed by Guido presumably is meant to indicate the
interval as derived from the root of the scale, or from the root of any
chord. The interval from ti to fa -- a diminished fifth, thus equivalent
[1] to a tritone -- I doubt was ever considered problematic.
This is interval occurs in the dominant 7th chord, which later [2] became
an extremely important chord in standard harmony. This, I assume, is the
inspiration for the "basis of all tonal music" comment that someone else
made (though I think that's a slight exaggeration).
mdl
[1] In today's terms the two are equivalent, but since Guido was writing
before equal temperament was invented, I'm not sure if the two would have
been equated then.
[2] ie, as soon as harmony became common in Western music. I believe that
would be a century or two after Guido, but several centuries before Bach.
Deborah Stevenson
On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Mark D. Lew wrote:
> I think we need to clarify a point which is likely to lead to confusion.
> The "tritone" as discussed by Guido presumably is meant to indicate the
> interval as derived from the root of the scale, or from the root of any
> chord. The interval from ti to fa -- a diminished fifth, thus equivalent
> [1] to a tritone -- I doubt was ever considered problematic.
It was completely forbidden in my Modal Counterpoint class. I can't find
my decades-old notes just at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that it was
forbidden in my class because it was forbidden in modal counterpoint, both
melodically and harmonically.
> This is interval occurs in the dominant 7th chord, which later [2] became
> an extremely important chord in standard harmony.
Right. And we're talking "earlier."
Deborah Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Mark D. Lew
Deborah Stevenson <stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> It was completely forbidden in my Modal Counterpoint class. I can't find
> my decades-old notes just at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that it was
> forbidden in my class because it was forbidden in modal counterpoint, both
> melodically and harmonically.
As I mentioned, I'm not real solid on the early history of music -- from my
point of view, everything before about 1600 is a blur -- so maybe we're
talking about different eras.
I just took a quick look through what little medieval choral music I have
in my library and I see that they do typically omit the seventh in a
dominant chord. Nevertheless I was able to find several instances of the
ti-fa tritone in dominant harmonies -- usually as a passing tone, but
occasionally held. Unfortunately, most of my copies aren't well labeled
with dates and composers, so I can't be sure of their origin. The earliest
date-identified piece I found was an anonymous two-part "Edi beo thu"
(labeled "English, later 13th century") in which the tritone occurs in
passing in a dominant-tonic cadence.
Most of the others I found are unlabeled, anonymous or by composers I don't
know, but it looks like mostly 15th century to me, which is perhaps after
the period your talking about. By the 16th century the practice is becoming
common.
mdl
jonathan miller
But not all the converted Japanese.
Always blows the missionaries away when they get somewhere and there are
Christians waiting for them.
Jon "and it bothers the Christians when the missionaries aren't" Miller
HWM
> Always blows the missionaries away when they get somewhere and there are
> Christians waiting for them.
The Jesuits probably had a ball when they found Chinese Nestorian
Christians...
(Nestorians were a sect deemed heretic even before the big split between
Rome and Constantinople, and some of their missionaries fled quite far)
--
Cheers, | De ore leonis libera me, Domine, et a |
HWM | cornibus unicornium humilitatem meam. |
hen...@iobox.fi & http://www.kuru.da.ru
Mark D. Lew
<jonatha...@nashville.com> wrote:
> > Chad Nilep wrote:
> >
> > > nor was there much Catholic presence in East Asia until the
> > > last couple of centuries.
> > [Nick Spalding]:
> > Not for want of trying. The Jesuits were in China in the 1500s -
> > the observatory they built for the Emperor in Beijing is still
> > there. Around the same time a number of them attempted to convert
> > the Japanese, all of them were slaughtered.
> [Jonathan Miller]:
> But not all the converted Japanese.
Progress of the Jesuit mission in Japan was more than negligible. Francis
Xavier opened the mission on Kyushu in 1549. By 1600 there were about
300,000 Christians in Japan. The estimate is higher when one includes those
peasants [1] who were ordered to convert by daimyo who had adopted the
faith. [2]
To some extent, Christianity was a political movement, a protest against
the Tokugawa shogunate. The shogun understood it as such, and that was the
primary motivation of the Tokugawa's official policy of persecution in the
early 1600s. An additional consideration was concern for Spanish expansion
in the Pacific (though the missionaries in Japan were primarily
Portuguese). Once the Tokugawa attained complete power, all Europeans were
expelled or killed. Only non-Catholic Dutch merchants were allowed in, with
restrictions.
mdl
[1] Technically, not exactly peasants, but a similar idea.
[2] Cite: _The Far East in the Modern World_, Michael & Taylor
Madeleine Page
:Progress of the Jesuit mission in Japan was more than negligible. Francis
:Xavier opened the mission on Kyushu in 1549. By 1600 there were about
:300,000 Christians in Japan.
I love afu. Where on earth else could I end up reading authoritative stuff
on Christian conversion rates in sixteenth century Japan, alongside posts
with wit, good humour, meanyheadedness and plans for post-Apocalyptic afu
assemblies?
Madeleine "thanks, Mark" Page
--
Want to make a difference? Go to http://www.thehungersite.com and click on
the "Donate Free Food" button. Do that once a day and you contribute up to
2 1/4 cups of food to the world's hungry.
Dr H
On 2 Dec 1999, Nathan Tenny wrote:
}Someone with actual musicological knowledge will have to take this further.
}I'd buy into the following:
}
}1. Tritone intervals were avoided in early-medieval church music. (T.)
}2. The practice of avoidance lasted into modern counterpoint. (T.)
"Modern" meaning exactly what? J.S.Bach? Wagner? Webern?
Mid-twentieth century composer Ernst Kernick defined the tritone as
a "neutral interval" in his particular version of twelve-tone serialism,
and a great deal of what he wrote was contrapuntal. He went so far as
to construct many of his tone rows to be intervalicly symetrical around
a central tritone.
}3. The tritone's unpleasant sound contributed to this practice. (Tb.)
"Unpleasant" would be a matter of individual aesthetic taste, no?
The interval cam be found throughout a lot of informal or 'folk'
music stretching back to antiquity.
}4. The tritone was believed to have some connection to the devil. (U.)
Probably from the "dialbolus in musica" you mentioned earlier.
Certainly some composers used the interval deliberately to /evoke/
the idea of the devil. (Saint-Saens' "Danse Macabre," for example,
in which the solo violin has the E-string retuned such as to give an
a tritone across two of the open strings.)
Dr H
Dr H
On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Chad Nilep wrote:
}
}Dr H wrote in message ...
}>
}>On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Dan Evans wrote:
}>
}>}On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:28:51 GMT, tre...@trstone.com (Trent Bowman)
}>}wrote:
}>}
}>}
}
}[further snip--No way.]
}>
}>}If you banned the tritone in harmony, you
}>}would be banning pretty much everything written since the Renaissance
}>}that isn't plainsong or Gregorian chant (i.e., modal).
}>
}> Hardly. There would still be vast bodies of Indonesian, Chinese,
}> Indian, Persian, Japanese music, as well as that of many other
}> cultures.
}
}Catholic church, nor was there much Catholic presence in East Asia until the
}last couple of centuries.
Sure, and if he had specified that he was speaking strictly of
western European liturgical music I wouldn't have had so much of
a quarrel. But just /assuming/ that "everything written since the
Renaissance" consists entirely of western European is either a bit
sloppy or a lot arrogant. The world /is/ bigger than Europe, after
all. They have their own music(s) and everything.
Dr H
Nathan Tenny
Dr H <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote:
>
>On 2 Dec 1999, Nathan Tenny wrote:
>
>}Someone with actual musicological knowledge will have to take this further.
>}I'd buy into the following:
>}
>}1. Tritone intervals were avoided in early-medieval church music. (T.)
>}2. The practice of avoidance lasted into modern counterpoint. (T.)
>
> "Modern" meaning exactly what? J.S.Bach? Wagner? Webern?
> Mid-twentieth century composer Ernst Kernick defined the tritone as
> a "neutral interval" in his particular version of twelve-tone serialism,
Fair enough; I should have said "post-medieval". Though it's still true
that in an introduction to counterpoint people are told that the tritone is
a dissonance and not to be used; but as you observe that develops exceptions
as you look beyond the student version of counterpoint.
>}3. The tritone's unpleasant sound contributed to this practice. (Tb.)
>
> "Unpleasant" would be a matter of individual aesthetic taste, no?
> The interval cam be found throughout a lot of informal or 'folk'
> music stretching back to antiquity.
Agreed again---I seem not to have been very successful in my phrasing. I
think, though, that it's more a matter of context than individual aesthetics;
it would, I submit, be pretty difficult to find someone who would like the
way the aesthetics of the tritone meshed with Gregorian chant (barring shock
effect, anyway).
On the other hand, the dominant seventh got introduced somehow; *someone*
must have heard the possibilities.
Karen J. Cravens
-100...@garcia.efn.org>:
> Sure, and if he had specified that he was speaking strictly of
> western European liturgical music I wouldn't have had so much of
> a quarrel. But just /assuming/ that "everything written since the
> Renaissance" consists entirely of western European is either a bit
> sloppy or a lot arrogant. The world /is/ bigger than Europe, after
> all. They have their own music(s) and everything.
Well, but I think just specifying "Renaissance" implies that context,
doesn't it? After all, just /assuming/ that the Renaissance occurred
everywhere is, well...
--
Karen "*and* if we're talking Catholic jurisdiction..." Cravens
Actuary X
>
> Probably from the "dialbolus in musica" you mentioned earlier.
> Certainly some composers used the interval deliberately to /evoke/
> the idea of the devil. (Saint-Saens' "Danse Macabre," for example,
> in which the solo violin has the E-string retuned such as to give an
> a tritone across two of the open strings.)
I've always heard this story about a certain interval
being "The Devil's Calling Card" with respect to Jimi
Hendrix' song _Purple Haze_, since that interval is
emphasized in the intro to the song, apparently for
deliberate effect.
Books about Hendrix always seem to relate that little
tidbit about the devil and that interval when talking
about that song.
--
"Son of Sam, Son of Sam"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dr H
On 6 Dec 1999, Nathan Tenny wrote:
}Dr H <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote:
}>
}>On 2 Dec 1999, Nathan Tenny wrote:
}>
}>}Someone with actual musicological knowledge will have to take this further.
}>}I'd buy into the following:
}>}
}>}1. Tritone intervals were avoided in early-medieval church music. (T.)
}>}2. The practice of avoidance lasted into modern counterpoint. (T.)
}>
}> "Modern" meaning exactly what? J.S.Bach? Wagner? Webern?
}> Mid-twentieth century composer Ernst Kernick defined the tritone as
}> a "neutral interval" in his particular version of twelve-tone serialism,
}> and a great deal of what he wrote was contrapuntal.[...]
}
}Fair enough; I should have said "post-medieval". Though it's still true
}that in an introduction to counterpoint people are told that the tritone is
}a dissonance and not to be used; but as you observe that develops exceptions
}as you look beyond the student version of counterpoint.
I grant you that intro-to-counterpoint students are taught to avoid
the tritone, though the reasons for this vary somewhat. In early
plainsong the /third/ was considered a 'dissonance,' after all.
Harkening back to counterpoint 101 class, I recall being told that
the tritone was indeed used in common practice early counterpoint, but
very rarely. We were told to avoid it because it was very difficult
to treat it *properly* in such counterpoint, and that such skills
were to be anticipated later on in our contrapuntal development.
}>}3. The tritone's unpleasant sound contributed to this practice. (Tb.)
}>
}> "Unpleasant" would be a matter of individual aesthetic taste, no?
}> The interval cam be found throughout a lot of informal or 'folk'
}> music stretching back to antiquity.
}
}Agreed again---I seem not to have been very successful in my phrasing. I
}think, though, that it's more a matter of context than individual aesthetics;
}it would, I submit, be pretty difficult to find someone who would like the
}way the aesthetics of the tritone meshed with Gregorian chant (barring shock
}effect, anyway).
If by "someone" you mean some western European aesthete contemporary
with the development of Gregorian chant, then I agree. In more recent
times, of course, there has been a good deal of psuedo-Gregorian chant
written using tritones and all other manner of what were traditionally
"dissonances."
}On the other hand, the dominant seventh got introduced somehow; *someone*
}must have heard the possibilities.
Heh, an early blues man, no doubt. Or those wacky traveling minstrels...
Dr H
Dr H
On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Dr H wrote:
}
} Mid-twentieth century composer Ernst Kernick defined the tritone as
} a "neutral interval" in his particular version of twelve-tone serialism,
} to construct many of his tone rows to be intervalicly symetrical around
} a central tritone.
Small typo correction there: should have been "Krenick".
Dr H
Simon Slavin
mark...@earthlink.net (Mark D. Lew) wrote:
> Progress of the Jesuit mission in Japan was more than negligible. Francis
> Xavier opened the mission on Kyushu in 1549. By 1600 there were about
> 300,000 Christians in Japan. The estimate is higher when one includes those
> peasants [1] who were ordered to convert by daimyo who had adopted the
> faith. [2]
>
> To some extent, Christianity was a political movement, a protest against
> the Tokugawa shogunate. The shogun understood it as such, and that was the
> primary motivation of the Tokugawa's official policy of persecution in the
> early 1600s.
A relevent tale was related on UK TV last week. Christian priests
in China (not Japan) brought along various scientific instruments
to impress the reigning emperor. These instruments allowed them to
impress the emperor with the accuracy of their predictions about
eclipses and included clocks. The relationship worked well for
some years and the priests were allowed to stay. Naturally, they
made some converts.
At some point, the emperor realised that the new technology and
new thology was eroding the culture of his people. He imprisoned
the priests. The clocks stopped working and, since only the
priests knew how to make them work again (they had run down and
needed winding) the emperor was forced to let the priests out of
prison of be deprived of his toys.
Simon.
--
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | John Peel:
No junk email please. | [My daughter] has modelled herself on you.
| Courtney Love:
| Oh, I'm so sorry.
Mark D. Lew
wrote:
> I love afu. Where on earth else could I end up reading authoritative stuff
> on Christian conversion rates in sixteenth century Japan, alongside posts
> with wit, good humour, meanyheadedness and plans for post-Apocalyptic afu
> assemblies?
Well, soc.history.medieval for one. Maybe not post-apocalyptic *afu*
assemblies, but certainly there's plenty of apocalyptic ranting there.
--
In article <Pine.GSU.4.05.991207...@garcia.efn.org>, Dr H
<hiaw...@efn.org> wrote:
> Small typo correction there: should have been "Krenick".
Still wrong. It's "Krenek".
mdl
Dr H
On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Mark D. Lew wrote:
}<hiaw...@efn.org> wrote:
}
}> Small typo correction there: should have been "Krenick".
}
}Still wrong. It's "Krenek".
Heh, you win. It's been a long time since I dabbled in 12-tone.
Dr H
mrgazpacho
series last night about Music's "Big Bangs". Howard Goodall was talking
about notation, and how the Pope once heard a piece of music so
beautiful that he kept the original under lock & key in the Vatican,
with copying punishable by excommunication.
He didn't count on the boy genius WAM being able to listen to it once,
then write it all out later.
--
Chris Kuan
Real email: mr gazpacho @ hotmail . com
"I feel the need - the need to feed" - my brother
Mark D. Lew
<mrgaz...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I'm straying from the question a bit here, but I was watching a BBC
> series last night about Music's "Big Bangs". Howard Goodall was talking
> about notation, and how the Pope once heard a piece of music so
> beautiful that he kept the original under lock & key in the Vatican,
> with copying punishable by excommunication.
>
> He didn't count on the boy genius WAM being able to listen to it once,
> then write it all out later.
This story is based on an actual event, but the details aren't reliably
known. The piece was a "Miserere" by Gregorio Allegri. Although later
musicologists find the piece pleasant but unremarkable, it was famous in
its day. Allegri wrote the piece for the Sistine Choir (of which he was a
member). The piece was indeed kept private so that only the Sistine Choir
could perform it, but "under lock and key in the Vatican" is an
exaggeration. Arthur Hutchings has demonstrated that, before Mozart's
famous encounter with the piece, at least three copies existed outside of
Rome, including one in Vienna.
The event (discussed in any good Mozart biography) took place when the
Mozarts visited Rome in December 1769. Our knowledge of it comes mostly
from Leopold Mozart's letters about it. These letters are essentially
publicity material and not without exaggeration. (For example, Wolfgang was
represented to the Pope as being only 12 years old, when he was in fact a
month shy of his 15th birthday.) Hutchings [1] believes that the copying of
the Allegri Miserere was preconceived as a publicity stunt, and the reports
of it were exaggerated by Leopold. He also argues that Wolfgang had heard
the piece performed once before, in Vienna.
It's still an impressive feat, demonstrating real musical talent, but not
quite as miraculous as the embellished accounts would suggest.
mdl
[1] Arthur Hutchings, "Mozart the Musician": definitely not the best Mozart
biography (it's really more of a "coffee table book"), just the one that I
happen to have on hand here.
Andrew Reid
[Mozart copied from memory, just like in the subject line...]
>
> It's still an impressive feat, demonstrating real musical talent, but not
> quite as miraculous as the embellished accounts would suggest.
>
Wow, this suddenly reminds me of something I "know", but
which is probably a UL: While I was studying violin, around
age 14-15, I was a member of a "Junior Orchestra", which was
a sort of no-audition-required staging ground for the much
more professional and serious "Youth Orchestra".
(Mount Royal College in Calgary, for those who care.
Not that we weren't good -- we won some kind of
province-wide thing in 1978 or 1979 -- got to go
to *Edmonton*!)
Of course, during breaks, from time to time during the
break, somebody would start dissing the director, mostly
because he was the nearest available authority figure.
Someone would invariably pipe up with, "Well, you know, to
even *become* an orchestra conductor, you have to pass an
exam where you listen to a piece of music once and then
write out the score."
My own formal musical training fizzled out right about
then, so I never found out, but I believed it from age 14
until about six seconds ago. Is it true? An exaggeration
of a true thing? Or just bollox?
Andrew "So, Fa, Mi, Re, D'oh!" Reid
George Byrd
on "Mozart copied from memory (was Re: Catholic Church once outlawed
"Devil's Tone"?)"
mark...@earthlink.net (Mark D. Lew) wrote:
>In article <82n4rn$7ir$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mrgazpacho
><mrgaz...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> I'm straying from the question a bit here, but I was watching a BBC
>> series last night about Music's "Big Bangs".
[ snippage ]
>This story is based on an actual event, but the details aren't reliably
>known. The piece was a "Miserere" by Gregorio Allegri.
Damn, a mere whimper! With that buildup I was hoping for pi-mesonic
funeral music.
G "or at least a missile solemnis" B
--
Opinions above are NOT those of APAN, Inc. and are NOT legal advice.
"I wrote a song about dental floss but did anyone's teeth get cleaner?"
<< Frank Zappa, 9/19/85, at a Congressional hearing on explicit lyrics >>
John Francis
>then write it all out later.
I thought WAM were a two-oerson act
Mark D. Lew
> Someone would invariably pipe up with, "Well, you know, to
> even *become* an orchestra conductor, you have to pass an
> exam where you listen to a piece of music once and then
> write out the score."
>
> My own formal musical training fizzled out right about
> then, so I never found out, but I believed it from age 14
> until about six seconds ago. Is it true? An exaggeration
> of a true thing? Or just bollox?
Short answer: bollix, with maybe a small grain of truth buried somewhere.
Long answer:
The "piped up" comment presumes two things: (1) that there is an exact
definition of when one is an "orchestra conductor" and when one is not; and
(2) that there is some sort of qualifying test.
There are groups of musicians who play at the
student/amateur/semi-professional level, and anyone who gives them the cue
to begin can be said to be "conducting" them. To be a rudimentary conductor
of a simple piece requires very little skill; to be a good conductor of a
professional symphony requires a great deal of skill. Between the two
extremes there is a wide range. I have worked with numerous mediocre
conductors (as well as some top-rank ones). Most conductors could not pass
the "test" you mention [1].
When a symphony hires a conductor, it looks for someone who has
demonstrated talent at the lower levels. An aspiring conductor thus can
strive to work his or her way up through the ranks. As with any profession,
there may be a certain amount of politics and ulterior considerations, but
basically hiring is done according to talent.
The ability to listen to a piece and quickly hear all the parts and
memorize them is a useful skill for a conductor, but it's not the only one.
(A related skill, the ability to read a score and "hear" it in one's mind,
is far more important.) There are famous conductors with truly phenomenal
memories; such a talent is useful, but not essential. Other completely
different qualities -- eg, artistic interpretation, ability to communicate
with the players -- are also very important.
It's possible that in conservatory some classes have exercises in which one
is challenged to listen to a piece and then write it out. I've never heard
of such a thing, but I can see how it might be useful in developing a
certain type of listening. It certainly is not any sort of qualifying test
for "becoming" an orchestra conductor.
mdl
[1] Well, you didn't specify the nature of the "piece of music". It could
be a very simple "piece" I suppose.
Peter Heritage
<markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>, Mark
D. Lew wrote:
> He also argues that Wolfgang had heard
> the piece performed once before, in Vienna.
>
We shouldn't forget that the young Mozart also had a _second_
[official] hearing, to make "corrections" to the manuscript,
before presenting it to the Pope. Even so, how many people
could actually perform a stunt like that?
Peter "alt.music.ear-training, anyone?" Heritage
Dan Evans
Lew) wrote:
>There are groups of musicians who play at the
>student/amateur/semi-professional level, and anyone who gives them the cue
>to begin can be said to be "conducting" them.
The French composer Lully died as the result of a conducting accident.
The practice then was not to "conduct" as we see now, but to beat time
with a stick upon the floor. He accidentally struck his own foot, the
wound became infected, and he died.
>It's possible that in conservatory some classes have exercises in which one
>is challenged to listen to a piece and then write it out. I've never heard
>of such a thing, but I can see how it might be useful in developing a
>certain type of listening.
I can recall undergraduate exercises in which we were called upon to
identify certain chords (major or minor, major or minor seventh, etc.)
and inversions (distinguishing between a tonic position and a 6-3 or
6-4), and perhaps certain progressions of two or three chords (such as
a I-6-4, V7, and I), but never more than that.
We were also tested on the opposite, which is the ability to take a
piece of music and sing it without ever having heard it before. (As
was pointed out, the ability to hear what is written is potentially
more useful for a conductor than the ability to write what is heard.)
**Dan Evans
**I am not your lawyer unless
**you have sent me a check.
Mark D. Lew
<d...@evans-legal.com> wrote:
> I can recall undergraduate exercises in which we were called upon to
> identify certain chords (major or minor, major or minor seventh, etc.)
> and inversions (distinguishing between a tonic position and a 6-3 or
> 6-4), and perhaps certain progressions of two or three chords (such as
> a I-6-4, V7, and I), but never more than that.
>
> We were also tested on the opposite, which is the ability to take a
> piece of music and sing it without ever having heard it before. (As
> was pointed out, the ability to hear what is written is potentially
> more useful for a conductor than the ability to write what is heard.)
Some choruses [1] test that sort of thing as part of the audition process.
mdl
[1] San Francisco Symphony Chorus and Oakland Symphony Chorus, to name two.
Practice varies from year to year, depending in part on how particular the
group can afford to be, and whether the musical director and staff feel
like going through the trouble.
Dr H
On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Mark D. Lew wrote:
}It's possible that in conservatory some classes have exercises in which one
}is challenged to listen to a piece and then write it out. I've never heard
}of such a thing, but I can see how it might be useful in developing a
}certain type of listening.
There are standard advanced 'ear-training' courses in which one does
exactly this, among other things. Many university music schools offer
them; I've taken them myself in three different music departments.
The pieces ranged from simply solo keyboard works, up to chamber
orchestra and contrapuntal choral pieces.
Dr H