Origin of "Ragtime"
jc davis
Anyone heard of this: I was told that the origin of "Ragtime" (Scott
Joplin, et al) is a little earthier than most people know.
According to the explanation I got, the genre developed in the bordellos
of the old south. When a young lady was unavailable for sex due to her
menstrual cycle, she was consigned to play the parlor piano for the
johns, hence: the "rag time."
Sounds plausible.
At this same party, I ventured that "Southpaw" for lefties may have come
from Westward-bound settlers and the relative position of their left
arm. This was my own brilliant idea, I think; any other explanations?
(This may have been more interesting then, due to the alcohol.)
Cheers--
BUzz
dr...@panix.com
> At this same party, I ventured that "Southpaw" for lefties may have come
> from Westward-bound settlers and the relative position of their left
> arm. This was my own brilliant idea, I think; any other explanations?
The term Southpaw comes from the fact that all statues in the US South
that honor the Confederacy [1] face South to malign northerners,
and the horses in said statues all have one "paw" raised [the left one]
to indicate that the soldier in the statue was never wounded.
1. A USAn splinter group perhaps not unlike the European "Greens."
Andrew "Rebel without any paws" McMichael
Larry Palletti
Andrew? Andrew! You get over here, young man, and you sit down. It's
not nice to tease the newbies, and you know that. For shame! I will
expect to see you in the confessional this Saturday.
Mr. Davis, report to the lurking pool. There you will learn that
left-handed persons are highly susceptible to magnetic fields that
cause them to face westward when they are otherwise unanchored.
Confederate horses, indeed.
Insofar as "ragtime" is concerned, your observation and speculation
about menstrual cycles is spot-on. Just keep in mind that menstrual
cycles have only two wheels, not three, causing riders to be
constantly wary of their balance. (The menstrual cycle is the source
of the expression "bitch on wheels.")
HTH. HAND. (8^)
Larry Palletti
East Point/Atlanta, Georgia
mince...@bellsouth.net
--
Opinionated, but lovable
Hey, it coulda happened.
dr...@panix.com
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I thought her name was Helene Wheels.
> HTH. HAND. (8^)
Sigh. And you were doing so well there for a minute.
Andrew
Mike Holmans
>>
>>> At this same party, I ventured that "Southpaw" for lefties may have come
>>> from Westward-bound settlers and the relative position of their left
>>> arm. This was my own brilliant idea, I think; any other explanations?
>>
>>
>>The term Southpaw comes from the fact that all statues in the US South
>>that honor the Confederacy [1] face South to malign northerners,
>>and the horses in said statues all have one "paw" raised [the left one]
>>to indicate that the soldier in the statue was never wounded.
>Mr. Davis, report to the lurking pool. There you will learn that
>left-handed persons are highly susceptible to magnetic fields that
>cause them to face westward when they are otherwise unanchored.
>Confederate horses, indeed.
>
Thank you very much. Now, in an attempt to be serious, didn't we once
manage to conclude that it was because the plate is always on the west
of a diamond, so that left-handed pitchers would be throwing the ball
from the south?
Mike "unless they were bowling, of course" Holmans
--
I have been turned down by a few art schools as well, so I might have a future
as a maniac. - HWM
http://www.urbanlegends.com explains a.f.u. rather well (to the clueful)
Brian Sefton
factual reason for doubting this,
I must say this strikes me as pure bunk.
Everyone N. of the Mason Dixon line knows that Confederate Statues all
face South to simulate retreat, and the term 'South Paw' originates from
immigrants on Ellis island being told that the south was to the left and
to find south just walk into the sunset and turn left, or follow your
'south paw'.
Brian 'made it up on the fly' Sefton
Stephen Suffet
>
> The term Southpaw comes from the fact that all statues in the US South
> that honor the Confederacy [1] face South to malign northerners,
> and the horses in said statues all have one "paw" raised [the left
> one] to indicate that the soldier in the statue was never wounded.
>
Greetings:
That ain't the story my Pennsylvania-born grampa told me. From what
I heard, major league ballparks are built so home plate is roughly due
West. That way the Sun sets behind the grandstands and gets in neither
the pitcher's nor the batter's eyes. As the pitcher is facing West, his
left hand (paw) is to the South -- hence the term southpaw for a left
handed pitcher.
Regards,
Steve
Lars Eighner
the lovely and talented jc davis <jcd...@greene-associates.com>
broadcast on alt.folklore.urban:
|This a really cool NG--just discovered it--
|
|Anyone heard of this: I was told that the origin of "Ragtime" (Scott
|Joplin, et al) is a little earthier than most people know.
|
|According to the explanation I got, the genre developed in the bordellos
|of the old south. When a young lady was unavailable for sex due to her
|menstrual cycle, she was consigned to play the parlor piano for the
|johns, hence: the "rag time."
How do people like this get ahold of a computer? People ask me:
"Lars, Lars, why are you so misanthropic?" Well, this, this is
why. It makes me want to blow up a maternity hospital. I'll
bet they let this guy out on weekends; I've just got to hope they
don't let him drive.
--
Lars Eighner 700 Hearn #101 Austin TX 78703 eig...@io.com
(512) 474-1920 (FAX answers 6th ring) http://www.io.com/%7Eeighner/
Please visit my web bookstore: http://www.io.com/%7Eeighner/bookstore/
* I cna ytpe 300 wrods pre mniuet!!!
Bruce Tindall
>The OED
Hey! No fair! You elitist! You're citing *sources*!
B "In the Internet Age, information wants to be ignorant!" T
--
Bruce Tindall :: tin...@panix.com
Bruce Tindall
>Brian 'made it up on the fly' Sefton
If you don't stop that, you'll go blind.
--
Bruce Tindall :: tin...@panix.com
Timothy A. McDaniel
Mike Holmans <pos...@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Now, in an attempt to be serious, didn't we once manage to conclude
>that it was because the plate is always on the west of a diamond, so
>that left-handed pitchers would be throwing the ball from the south?
Looking at Deja News via the nice interface at
http://www.exit109.com/~jeremy/news/deja.html
shows that the debunking of that notion was not on
alt.folklore.urban. It's not in alt.fan.cecil-adams either.
alt.lefthanders (!) has a message mentioning the OED boxing cite on 13
June, with Dalton O H quoting someone else writing that it's
"describing a boxer's left-handed punch. This is long before the start
of professional baseball and only a few years after baseball was
supposedly invented in 1839."
Anyway, I remembered the essence without that. From the OED,
1. A person's left hand. (In quot. 1848, a punch or blow with the
left hand.)
1848 _Democratic B-hoy_, `I say, Lewy, give him a sockdologer!'
`Curse the Old Hoss, what a south-paw he has given me!'
1848 is well before the invention of "baseball" eo nomine, though
games like it ("rounders" and such) existed already, I believe --
however, I don't think they had organized leagues and standardized
stadia and such.
Interestingly, definition 2 has the urban legend implicitly refuted by
definition 1:
1959 Sunday Times 8 Nov. 32/6 In the ball parks all over the
United States the so-called `diamond', formed by the track
between the bases, is always oriented to the same points of the
compass, so that in whatever park a team is playing the
pitcher on his mound will always have his right hand on the north
side of his body; hence a left-hander is a `southpaw'.
There's also
3. attrib. or as adj. Left-handed; also transf., left-footed, and fig.
1891 Cricket 29 Oct. 463/1 The Germantown man returned the ball
like a flash to the wicket, and the `south-paw' batsman was run
out.
though I suppose American slang might have crossed the pond easily.
--
*** NEW PERSONAL ADDRESS ***
Tim McDaniel is tm...@jump.net; if that fail,
tm...@austin.ibm.com and tm...@us.ibm.com are my work accounts.
tm...@crl.com is old and will go away.
Maggie Newman
>This a really cool NG--just discovered it--
>
>Anyone heard of this: I was told that the origin of "Ragtime" (Scott
>Joplin, et al) is a little earthier than most people know.
>
>According to the explanation I got, the genre developed in the bordellos
>of the old south. When a young lady was unavailable for sex due to her
>menstrual cycle, she was consigned to play the parlor piano for the
>johns, hence: the "rag time."
>
I guess it's up to me to answer your question about "rags," as best I
can.
Here's an early source for the origin of the term:
"Negroes call their clog dancing 'ragging' and the dance a 'rag', a
dance largely shuffling . . . "
Rupert Hughes, Boston _Musical Record_ 1899, quoted in John Storm
Roberts, _Black Music of Two Worlds_, New York: Praeger, 1972
The OED finds the first instance of the term in the "Mississippi Rag,"
a piece of sheet-music published in 1892. Evidently the term "Ragtime"
comes from the use of the word "Rag" to describe a type of dancing.
It seems unlikely that menstrual cycles -- which are already in disrepute
at the moment on this newsgroup as a result of the wild and unsubstantiated
speculation of one John Gilmer -- played a part in the origin of this
term.
Maggie "rag, Mama, rag" Newman
dr...@panix.com
> Thank you very much. Now, in an attempt to be serious, didn't we once
> manage to conclude that it was because the plate is always on the west
> of a diamond, so that left-handed pitchers would be throwing the ball
> from the south?
That was the explanation I'd always heard. Well, after the whole
Confederate stutue thing anyway.
Andrew
dr...@panix.com
> dr...@panix.com wrote:
>> The term Southpaw comes from the fact that all statues in the US South
>> that honor the Confederacy [1] face South to malign northerners,
>> and the horses in said statues all have one "paw" raised [the left
>> one] to indicate that the soldier in the statue was never wounded.
> That ain't the story my Pennsylvania-born grampa told me. From what
> I heard, major league ballparks are built so home plate is roughly due
> West. That way the Sun sets behind the grandstands and gets in neither
> the pitcher's nor the batter's eyes. As the pitcher is facing West, his
> left hand (paw) is to the South -- hence the term southpaw for a left
> handed pitcher.
Oh, really?
Andrew
Randy Poe
Maggie Newman wrote:
>
> jc davis <jcd...@greene-associates.com> wrote:
> >According to the explanation I got, the genre developed in the bordellos
> >of the old south. When a young lady was unavailable for sex due to her
> >menstrual cycle, she was consigned to play the parlor piano for the
> >johns, hence: the "rag time."
> >
>
> Here's an early source for the origin of the term:
>
> "Negroes call their clog dancing 'ragging' and the dance a 'rag', a
> dance largely shuffling . . . "
And here I was all impressed that those southern bordellos
held piano auditions before hiring their girls.
- Randy
Phil Edwards
wrote:
>alt.lefthanders (!) has a message mentioning the OED boxing cite on 13
>June, with Dalton O H quoting someone else writing that it's
>"describing a boxer's left-handed punch. This is long before the start
>of professional baseball and only a few years after baseball was
>supposedly invented in 1839."
>
>Anyway, I remembered the essence without that. From the OED,
>
> 1. A person's left hand. (In quot. 1848, a punch or blow with the
> left hand.)
>
> 1848 _Democratic B-hoy_, `I say, Lewy, give him a sockdologer!'
> `Curse the Old Hoss, what a south-paw he has given me!'
>
>1848 is well before the invention of "baseball" eo nomine, though
>games like it ("rounders" and such) existed already, I believe --
>however, I don't think they had organized leagues and standardized
>stadia and such.
Hold on there. Baseball, under that name, figures in _Mansfield Park_
(1813). But no, I doubt it was the US's national sport as early as
1848 - they would still have been playing cricket back then.
I don't think it *means* anything; I think it's a simple example of
slang by analogy: South is to North as left is to right.
Phil "strawfoot" Edwards
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth/
"Who is this `Question Authority' person, anyway?" - Lee Rudolph
I don't read crossposts.
Mr C
Stephen Suffet wrote in message <377A99...@worldnet.att.net>...
parks (major league or otherwise) are oriented any number of ways, depending
on the factors you would expect.
However, Comiskey Park, in Chicago is aligned as described. Once upon a
time (I think in the forties) a leftie was pitching there, and the
commentator noted that he was using his South paw.
I am certain about Comiskey's layout, and spent about two minutes trying to
find a cite or a pitcher or even a radio commentator to verify...
They call me Mister C
"I'm thirty-seven, I'm not old"--Dennis
Becca Ward
> However, Comiskey Park, in Chicago is aligned as described. Once upon a
~~
> time (I think in the forties) a leftie was pitching there, and the
> commentator noted that he was using his South paw.
>
> I am certain about Comiskey's layout, and spent about two minutes trying to
> find a cite or a pitcher or even a radio commentator to verify...
The current White Sox stadium? Or the one it replaced?
Becca Ward
--
Journal of Non-Crystalline Solids is not particularly
obscure. -- Katie Schwarz, whose MMV
Ralph Jones
> On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Mr C wrote:
>
> > However, Comiskey Park, in Chicago is aligned as described. Once upon a
> [snip]
I was under the impression there is a standard compass orientation for baseball
diamonds. Wrong?
rj
Charles Miles
of music is "raggedy", i.e. syncopated.
Along with many other types of music, ragtime *was* played in
bordellos-but usually by men, which kinda puts a kink in your story....
jc davis wrote:
>
> This a really cool NG--just discovered it--
>
> Anyone heard of this: I was told that the origin of "Ragtime" (Scott
> Joplin, et al) is a little earthier than most people know.
>
> According to the explanation I got, the genre developed in the bordellos
> of the old south. When a young lady was unavailable for sex due to her
> menstrual cycle, she was consigned to play the parlor piano for the
> johns, hence: the "rag time."
>
> Sounds plausible.
>
> At this same party, I ventured that "Southpaw" for lefties may have come
> from Westward-bound settlers and the relative position of their left
> arm. This was my own brilliant idea, I think; any other explanations?
A. Gifford
>
> The usual explanation for the word "Ragtime" that the time in this type
> of music is "raggedy", i.e. syncopated.
>
> Along with many other types of music, ragtime *was* played in
> bordellos-but usually by men, which kinda puts a kink in your story....
> > According to the explanation I got, the genre developed in the bordellos
> > of the old south. When a young lady was unavailable for sex due to her
> > menstrual cycle, she was consigned to play the parlor piano for the
> > johns, hence: the "rag time."
The scores of the ragtime pieces I have use this explanation:
"the style developed a thump-pah bass and an ornate syncopated melodic
line. Because it sounded as tagged as a torn cloth, it was called
"ragged time", then "ragtime"."
It is possible that this is a sanitized version, but the scenario listed
above seems less likely for the following reasons.
I realize that people were taught to play the piano in that era almost
as a matter of course. But the background that seems most likely to lead
to prostitution would seem to also to be least likely to have provided a
piano to learn on, even assuming that lessons were unnecessary. It seems
unlikely that a typical prositute would have a lot of musical training
or time to practice.
Keep in mind that a "hit" ragtime piece was defined that way because of
the sales of the scores. Most of them probably had to be able to read
music, and ragtime is HARD to read.
Ragtime is not that easy. (I do play). The left hand part jumps all
over the place and you aren't going to get that without some practice,
especially against that right hand. Ragtime is harder than the simple
Bach or Beethoven pieces or those ghastly easy romantic things the upper
class women were supposed to play to show they can play, but not TOO
well. Admittedly it's a sight easier than a typical concerto but it
could be compared to some of the Bach toccatas and I think it's harder
than the 2 part inventions and the Brahms intermezzi. (IT's a LOT more
fun to play than the Brahms intermezzi.)
There is another interesting phenomenon that your scenario brings to
mind. Given that groups of women who spend a lot of time together will
find their menstrual cycles coordinating, what happens when all the
prostitutes are out of commission at the same time? Everyone gets the
week off?
Audrey
Bob Hiebert, Jr.
Ralph Jones wrote:
>
> I was under the impression there is a standard compass orientation for baseball
> diamonds. Wrong?
Well, sure. Once their built the heading never changes. Except maybe
the Giants' stadium.
Hiebert
Kurt Kurosawa
news:377F9F...@bridgesbls.com...
Sounds a little fancy. I'm not much into fancy
explanations; I'd have to believe "ragtime" has a simple
origin like that of "blues;" in this case, simply the way a
woman (and her man, which wraps a neat joke into the name)
feels at that time of month. I figure the first time
someone described the music as "ragtime," everyone in
earshot laughed their butts off. Joplin wrote "The
Entertainer" about the loneliness of a musician on the road
(even though most folks play it as cheerfully as possible).
Can't remember, did he write another sad one (that everyone
plays cheerfully) after a child died?
> Ragtime is not that easy
Got a friend Jimmy who searched out all the recorded Joplin
he could find and learned it by ear, and for that I figure
he's one of the best musicians I've ever met.
> There is another interesting phenomenon that your scenario
brings to
> mind. Given that groups of women who spend a lot of time
together will
> find their menstrual cycles coordinating, what happens
when all the
> prostitutes are out of commission at the same time?
Everyone gets the
> week off?
John, a fine bass bone player with four daughters who, with
his wife, chain off at the same time every month, says a
wise man goes golfing. He says it's OK; he's spoiled far
beyond anyone's right for the rest of the month.
Deborah Stevenson
>A. Gifford <agif...@bridgesbls.com> wrote in message
>news:377F9F...@bridgesbls.com...
>Sounds a little fancy. I'm not much into fancy
>explanations; I'd have to believe "ragtime" has a simple
>origin like that of "blues;" in this case, simply the way a
>woman (and her man, which wraps a neat joke into the name)
>feels at that time of month. I figure the first time
>someone described the music as "ragtime," everyone in
>earshot laughed their butts off. Joplin wrote "The
>Entertainer" about the loneliness of a musician on the road
>(even though most folks play it as cheerfully as possible).
>Can't remember, did he write another sad one (that everyone
>plays cheerfully) after a child died?
Binks' Waltz. Though I haven't heard it played cheerfully myself (and
it's not exactly a dirge--like Solace and other pieces, such as, I
believe, Harmony Club Waltz, there's more a pervasive wistfulness and
melancholy alternating with more upbeat sections).
While my OED isn't particularly helpful on this one ("ragtime" is in it,
but origins aren't given), I'm skeptical of your rather freewheeling
etymology. I'd find it more convincing if you could find an 1890s usage
nonmusical usage of "ragtime" or even "rag," but until then I think the
formation from "ragged" seems more plausible if less enticingly taboo.
Deborah Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
George Byrd
on "Re: Origin of "Ragtime""
smne...@gsbpop.uchicago.edu (Maggie Newman) wrote:
>Here's an early source for the origin of the term:
>"Negroes call their clog dancing 'ragging' and the dance a 'rag', a
>dance largely shuffling . . . "
>Rupert Hughes, Boston _Musical Record_ 1899, quoted in John Storm
>Roberts, _Black Music of Two Worlds_, New York: Praeger, 1972
In the 1947 edition of _The_Music_Lovers'_Encyclopedia_, originally
compiled and bublished by Rupert Hughes in 1903, an article by Robert
C. Bagar on "Jazz" addresses also the origin of the term "rag" or
"ragtime". He could be read as either contradicting Hughes' version
above, or augmenting it by extension to particular musical rythms:
"The days of the minstrel show had an important part in the paving of
the way for jazz. The minstrels took spirituals and work songs,
distorted them in an elaborate manner unknown up to that time, and
they called their concoction 'ragging.' A mild syncopation -- as
compared to the present-day complicated expression -- ragging,
prepared the foundation, nevertheless, for ragtime, and through it,
jazz."
>The OED finds the first instance of the term in the "Mississippi Rag,"
>a piece of sheet-music published in 1892. Evidently the term "Ragtime"
>comes from the use of the word "Rag" to describe a type of dancing.
Bagar continues: "In 1897 a composer, Kerry Mills by name, turned out
a piece titled 'Georgia Camp-Meeting.' It was a great success. And
this, probably was the first to be recognized as a ragtime number.
Bert Williams' 'O I Don't Know, You're Not So Warm' had the
distinction to be the first printed song whose front cover carried the
designation 'ragtime'.
In these items, as in many others of their period, the feature which
specifically set them apart as ragtime consisted of a steady,
four-beat bass accompaniment to syncopated fillips in the melody."
G "Nil significat nisi oscillat" B
--
Opinions above are NOT those of APAN, Inc. and are NOT legal advice.
"It is to be noted in playing old music that the appoggiatura was
written small merely as a bit of academic hypocrisy to smuggle in
thus an unprepared suspension." << Rupert Hugues >>
R H Draney
> In these items, as in many others of their period, the feature which
> specifically set them apart as ragtime consisted of a steady,
> four-beat bass accompaniment to syncopated fillips in the melody."
>
> G "Nil significat nisi oscillat" B
That's not ragtime, that's a Latin rhythm....
R H "Doo-wah doo-wah doo-wah doo-wah doo-wah" Draney