Lauryn Hill racist remark
JJ Lipari
JJ
<AFol...@webtv.net> wrote in message news:9400sv$b8d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <93vvsb$afa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Lauren Mekeel - Wolfer <michelle...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > My boyfriend seems to be convinced that Lauryn Hill once said
> > something along the lines of: "I'd rather have a white person die than
> > buy my record." and I can't seem to find anything to prove him wrong. I
> > seem to remember similar misquotes from Tommy Hilfiger and Mariah
> > Carrey, but I just can't seem to find any info on the Lauryn Hill one.
> > Can anyone help me out with this?
> >
>
> Mmm, I do believe you've introduced a new variation on the faux-quote.
> Anyway, Lauryn Hill didn't say anything like this. See:
>
> http://www.snopes2.com/quotes/lauryn.htm
>
> Alan "Would rather have Mariah Carrey die than see Lauryn Hill buy Tommy
> Hilfiger's album, or any permutation of the above[1]" Follett
>
> [1] Who are these folks, anyway? [2]
>
> [2] I'm getting very close to the point at which an issue of /People/ will
> appear on the newsstands in which I haven't heard of anybody.
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
Tom Sevart
"Ivan Zlatnik" <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9408pq$i7g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> BZZT. WRONG.
> Lauryn Hill probably did say something like that.
"Probably" doesn't mean "definitely."
>
> If you bother to read the snopes site, you will see that they have no
> facts to support Lauryn Hill not making racially insensitive remarks on
> several occasions.
How can you prove a negative? That's like saying that because there's no
proof that Lauryn Hill is not a space alien, then she must be a space alien.
The burden of proof is on those making the claims. If someone claims that
she made the comment, they must show some sort of evidence that she did.
Otherwise it's just an unproven rumor.
>While snopes is usually pretty good about getting to
>the truth behind an UL, in this case it purely just one person't opnion.
>Which is definitely NOT a debunking. Bad snopes! Bad!
Obviously, if nobody can come up with any videotape or other evidence (other
than saying "I remember seeing it") then it goes a long way in debunking the
rumor, especially when the same incident is said to have happened to several
other celebrities in the same manner. It doesn't necessarily prove that the
incident didn't happen, but casts doubt on the veracity of the story.
Tom "but what if she is a space alien?" Sevart
Tom Sevart
> > :This is not the only allegation. Snopes used to make this point.
> >
> > Snopes still makes the point that many people claim that she has made
> > other racist statements, but that not one of these claims has been
> > verified.
>
> Uh...what do you mean by verified? That someone didn't have their tape
> running at the time? It's not like a lot of people didn't see it.
>
Lots of people claim to have known people who had their kidneys stolen, but
that doesn't make the stories true.
Tom "Hey, what's this big scar on my side?" Sevart
Tom Sevart
> how does anything on that page debunk the UL? It is one person's
> opinion. that isn't a debunking at all.
How is the fact that there's no evidence to support the claim anyone's
opinion? Until the claim is proven with some videotape, it's just a rumor.
Ivan Zlatnik
> > In article <940fn6$nvn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Sidhedevil <sidhe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
>
> Cite, then.
>
> If she's made many racist remarks and associates with Five
percenters, and
> this is common knowledge, you ought to be able to provide many cites
for
> this. Newspaper articles, magazines, interview transcrips, anything.
Just
> send in the URL.
>
> cms - I'll even pay the $2.50 to call up Times archive articles.
Drew Lawson
"Nina Neudorfer " <Nin...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>"Ivan Zlatnik" <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>> You can search dejanews if you like and find some of them and email
>> them. I am sorry I cannot provide you with their names. I know what I
>> heard.
>>
>"I know what I heard." Hmmm.
>
>Did y'all reopen the m*tt* competition while I was away?
We've tried to reclose it, but the nail guns don't work as well as
they used to.
Drew "thought they *are* just as much fun" Lawson
Dan Hartung
> The correct answer:
>
> No recording of Lauryn Hill saying this has been made public. It cannot
> be known whether she said this.
When did you stop beating your wife?
--
Dan Hartung * dhartung [at] wwa [dot] com
Lake Effect weblog: http://www.lakefx.nu/
Charles A Lieberman
www.deja.com/msgid.xp?MID=<94091u$ia0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>> There's a good debunking at http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lauryn.htm
>>
>> Maggie
>>
>>
>how does anything on that page debunk the UL? It is one person's
>opinion. that isn't a debunking at all.
You seem to have an awful lot invested in Hill having said this. Why is
that?
--
Charles A. Lieberman | "French people are so weird."
Brooklyn, New York, USA | -Meredith Robbins
http://calieber.tripod.com/home.html
No relation.
Charles Frederick Goodin
>Alan "Would rather have Mariah Carrey die than see Lauryn Hill buy Tommy
>Hilfiger's album, or any permutation of the above[1]" Follett
>
>appear on the newsstands in which I haven't heard of anybody.
I don't read /People/ much, but don't they usually have people like the
President of the United States in it? Are you a United States of America
resident? Does that mean that you soon won't know who your President is?
--
chuk
Karen J. Cravens
<944laj$5nl$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca>:
>In article <9400sv$b8d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <AFol...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>[2] I'm getting very close to the point at which an issue of /People/
>>will appear on the newsstands in which I haven't heard of anybody.
>
>I don't read /People/ much, but don't they usually have people like the
>President of the United States in it? Are you a United States of
Not *every* issue, shirley.
>America resident? Does that mean that you soon won't know who your
>President is?
...again?
--
Karen "okay, so that was 'future president'" Cravens
D.F. Manno
Goodin) wrote:
Well, unless and until they complete the vote count in Florida...
--
D.F. "I know I'm skirting the edge of the BOP, but I couldn't resist" Manno
domm...@netscape.net
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane." ‹ Jimmy Buffett
Sidhedevil
Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <940fn6$nvn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Sidhedevil <sidhe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
claimed
> > that Elvis is still alive. Guess what--he isn't.
>
> You can search dejanews if you like and find some of them and email
> them. I am sorry I cannot provide you with their names. I know what I
> heard.
You are the one making the contention that she made this remark; in
ordinary discourse, the person making a contention is the person who
provides supporting evidence.
>
> > in 1995? Ms. Hill was rarely the spokesperson for the Fugees; her
> > bandmate Wyclef Jean was the most often interviewed member of the
> group.
> > Hill's solo career did not take off until later in the decade.
>
> I checked
What did you "check" and why didn't you include that cite in your post?
> and Hill made her stupid statement on MTV in May of 1996.
> This is not to be confused with the other stupid things she has said.
Again, you have no backup other than your own contention. From what
source did you derive that month and date?
>
> > Again, which "people who have worked with her?" You don't have any
> > cites here, you just seem to have remembered seeing it on TV.
That's
> > not exactly compelling evidence.
>
> I am not trying to make a case that everyone has to accept she said
> it.
I think you are, actually.
> But to come into an UL ng and say she never said it because she
> denied it is ridiculous. That is my point. I don't intend to prove
> that she said it. But that doesn't mean she didn't.
Yes, she certainly could have. But that wasn't what we were talking
about. You say that you believe she made a racist comment on MTV
because a) you remember seeing it on MTV, and b) other people have
alleged that she made that racist comment, or other racist comments.
That may well be convincing evidence for you, but it is not terrifically
convincing for others.
>
> > Actually, the "Tommy Hilfiger's racism" story had a number of
> > variants--he was rumored to have made a racist remark on "Oprah," on
> > "Regis and Kathy Lee," on the "Today" show, on "David Letterman,"
and
> to
> > a reporter for the New York Times. There was also some kind of
mythos
> > about semaphore flags coding racist slurs or something in one or
more
> of
> > his clothing designs.
> >
> > > The snopes "debunking" is a load. Read it and see for yourself.
> >
> > The snopes entry boils down to two things, just about: 1) Nobody
has
> > ever offered a definitive citation for even one racist remark by
> Lauryn
> > Hill
>
> MTV news, may 1996
No, that would not be a definitive citation. A definitive citation
would be: "Tuesday, May 14, 1996 'The Week in Rock'" or "'An Interview
with Lauryn Hill,' hosted by Kurt Loder, first aired Wednesday, May 15,
1996."
Or, "as cited in James Wolcott, 'The Mystery of Lauryn Hill,' Vanity
Fair, June, 1997."
You saying that that is when you saw it is not an objectively verifiable
citation.
>
> 2) remarks like that wouldn't be in keeping with the Snopesites'
> perception of her.
>
> I don't know what you are talking about here.
I have no connection with the Snopes cite, and don't know what they're
basing their judgment on.
>For example, Lauryn
Hill
> performs with and associates with Five Percenters.
What is this? Is this a group of some kind? I have never heard of it.
>Five Percenters
are
> just the type of people to emit racist nonsense, call racist lunatics
> like Colin Ferguson a vigilante (as Wyclef Jean has done)
Do you know what the word "vigilante" means? A vigilante is, according
to "dictionary.com," "1.One who takes or advocates the taking of law
enforcement into one's own hands." Vigilantes do not have to be right
about what they perceive the "law" to be. Ferguson, a deeply troubled
person, shot commuters because, in his mental illness and rage, he saw
it as a way to redress what he perceived as social wrongs. He was
exercising "vigilante justice" according to his delusional understanding
of the word. Jean's using the word "vigilante" does not imply any
endorsement of Ferguson's aims or actions. "Vigilante" is not a
positive term in the vast majority of contexts.
>and then
hide
> behind this "we're just proud of our race and if you try to hold us
> reponsible for what we say, you are a white racist." Just as the
> Fugees have done.
Okay, are you saying that the Fugees are members of this "Five
Percenter" group? Or that by performing with them, they give credence
to that political viewpoint? Charlton Heston and Barbra Streisand have
appeared onstage together, yet they could not be more different
politically.
>
> > I agree that 2) is an opinion, but 1)
> > still seems like a pretty strong debunking--or at least a good
> > suggestion not to jump to conclusions.
>
> Here, we're in agreement. I don't expect anyone to believe that
Lauryn
> Hill said these things because someone on usenet said so. But...when
> you have someone like Lauryn Hill associating with known racists,
I should believe this because you, someone on Usenet, says so?
> and
> accused in many contexts of saying racist things,
accused by, um, people on Usenet?
> you can't just
> say, "oh, she denied saying it and claimed it was a bunch of racists
> trying to slander her so she must not have said it."
Well, somebody could, and that's their opinion. Of course an opinion
would be an exceptionally poor factual refutation of factual
information.
But this is what you did: Someone posted the question, "Did Lauryn Hill
make a racist statement on TV?" You posted the response, "My opinion is
that she did." Someone else posted the response, "Snopes has a
refutation of it." You posted the remark, "The Snopes refutation is a
load, because that's just their opinion."
But you failed to provide any factual evidence to change the level of
the discussion--you're just pitting your opinion against their opinion.
> That is
> nonsense. But it is exactly what snopes does in this case.
See above. Your argument is, "Despite any factual evidence, I believe
Hill made the statement because I have a vague memory of hearing it, and
my perception of her is that she would make that kind of statement."
How is your contention any different from the one on the Snopes site?
>
> Snopes has a category for things that can't be resolved. Absurd
> stories that are almost certainly untrue...if they cannot be proven to
> be untrue, snopes stamps them "unknown."
>
> > Why do you care so much that people think Lauryn Hill is prejudiced
> > against white people? And why can't you find any objective
> information
> > to back up your view?
>
> I don't give a rats ass if some pathetic millionaire is a racist.
Um, I've never seen a post from you on this group before. Do you
regularly grep Usenet for references to Hill, or did you just happen to
be passing by and become passionately interested in this discussion, and
this discussion only?
> I
> pity them. But if someone is presented with an urban legend about
> someone uttering racist garbage, just saying, "Oh, she said it was a
> bunch of white racists trying to slander her, so this has been
> debunked." This is particularly absurd because I sat there and heard
> her say it.
So you claim, in any case. But you haven't posted any evidence to
bolster your claim, so for now, I think it's best labeled "unknown."
Sidhedevil "opinion v. opinion" the She-Devil
Simon Slavin
"JJ Lipari" <j...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> Who is Lauren Hill? Never heard of her!
www.google.com is your friend.
Simon.
--
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | Come to think of it, just what are we going
No junk email please. | to say to an alien race if we make contact?
| "Do you have Napster?"
| "Stop making crop circles!" -- Scott Barber
Meredith Robbins
>
> In article <9421qr$12p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > denied it is ridiculous. That is my point. I don't intend to prove
> > that she said it. But that doesn't mean she didn't.
>
> Yes, she certainly could have. But that wasn't what we were talking
> about. You say that you believe she made a racist comment on MTV
> because a) you remember seeing it on MTV, and b) other people have
> alleged that she made that racist comment, or other racist comments.
> That may well be convincing evidence for you, but it is not terrifically
> convincing for others.
Especially considering that the lyrics of the Fugees and of Lauryn
Hill's solo efforts are anything but racist. I offer the following
selection from "How Many Mics," from the Fugees' "The Score":
"So on my day off
With David Sonnenberg I play golf
Run through Crown Heights screaming out Mazel Tov
Problem with no man
Before black, I'm first human."
The only reference to white people at all on Lauryn Hill's solo album,
"The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill," is "It's silly when girls sell their
souls because it's in / Look at where you be in hair weaves like
Europeans," which condemns not white people, but black girls who are
ashamed to be themselves.
Given all this, I can't quite figure out how this piece of lore (which
I've heard in the wild *many* times -- and I don't get vectored to very
often) got attached to Lauryn Hill. There are plenty of other rap
artists who are far more... how shall i say this... aggressive in their
defense of their people. I guess it makes a better, more shocking
anecdote because it's so unexpected -- and perhaps there's a certain
racist undertone: "Even the most educated, seemingly tolerant black
people are not to be trusted!" I hope I haven't crossed the BoP line;
please correct me if I have.
Meredith "Fu-gee-la-la" Robbins
--
"The magic of VELCRO fasteners unleashes your child's creativity!"
--Package text of VELCRO brand Puppet Magic craft kit
http://www.eclectricity.org | http://www.exileinnetville.com
JJ Lipari
Nathaniel Smith, Joseph Paul Franklin, Timothy Mcveigh, or the Jasper Texas
dragging murderers??? A little selective in your outrage, arent you?
JJ
"Ivan Zlatnik" <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9421qr$12p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <940fn6$nvn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Sidhedevil <sidhe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > Which individuals, other than you? "Several individuals" have claimed
> > that Elvis is still alive. Guess what--he isn't.
>
> You can search dejanews if you like and find some of them and email
> them. I am sorry I cannot provide you with their names. I know what I
> heard.
>
> > in 1995? Ms. Hill was rarely the spokesperson for the Fugees; her
> > bandmate Wyclef Jean was the most often interviewed member of the
> group.
> > Hill's solo career did not take off until later in the decade.
>
> I checked and Hill made her stupid statement on MTV in May of 1996.
> This is not to be confused with the other stupid things she has said.
>
> > Again, which "people who have worked with her?" You don't have any
> > cites here, you just seem to have remembered seeing it on TV. That's
> > not exactly compelling evidence.
>
> I am not trying to make a case that everyone has to accept she said
> it. But to come into an UL ng and say she never said it because she
> denied it is ridiculous. That is my point. I don't intend to prove
> that she said it. But that doesn't mean she didn't.
>
> > Actually, the "Tommy Hilfiger's racism" story had a number of
> > variants--he was rumored to have made a racist remark on "Oprah," on
> > "Regis and Kathy Lee," on the "Today" show, on "David Letterman," and
> to
> > a reporter for the New York Times. There was also some kind of mythos
> > about semaphore flags coding racist slurs or something in one or more
> of
> > his clothing designs.
> >
> > > The snopes "debunking" is a load. Read it and see for yourself.
> >
> > The snopes entry boils down to two things, just about: 1) Nobody has
> > ever offered a definitive citation for even one racist remark by
> Lauryn
> > Hill
>
> MTV news, may 1996
>
> 2) remarks like that wouldn't be in keeping with the Snopesites'
> perception of her.
>
> I don't know what you are talking about here. For example, Lauryn Hill
> performs with and associates with Five Percenters. Five Percenters are
> just the type of people to emit racist nonsense, call racist lunatics
> like Colin Ferguson a vigilante (as Wyclef Jean has done) and then hide
> behind this "we're just proud of our race and if you try to hold us
> reponsible for what we say, you are a white racist." Just as the
> Fugees have done.
>
> > I agree that 2) is an opinion, but 1)
> > still seems like a pretty strong debunking--or at least a good
> > suggestion not to jump to conclusions.
>
> Here, we're in agreement. I don't expect anyone to believe that Lauryn
> Hill said these things because someone on usenet said so. But...when
> you have someone like Lauryn Hill associating with known racists, and
> accused in many contexts of saying racist things, you can't just
> say, "oh, she denied saying it and claimed it was a bunch of racists
> trying to slander her so she must not have said it." That is
> nonsense. But it is exactly what snopes does in this case.
>
> Snopes has a category for things that can't be resolved. Absurd
> stories that are almost certainly untrue...if they cannot be proven to
> be untrue, snopes stamps them "unknown."
>
> > Why do you care so much that people think Lauryn Hill is prejudiced
> > against white people? And why can't you find any objective
> information
> > to back up your view?
>
> I don't give a rats ass if some pathetic millionaire is a racist. I
> pity them. But if someone is presented with an urban legend about
> someone uttering racist garbage, just saying, "Oh, she said it was a
> bunch of white racists trying to slander her, so this has been
> debunked." This is particularly absurd because I sat there and heard
> her say it.
>
>
Madeleine Page
[snip over two hundred lines of passionate argumentation]
Ummm.
You're dealing with someone who kibozes for Lauryn Hill, so he can air his
Lifetime Pet Peeve.
You are dealing with someone who takes issue with an archive site because
it fails to provide proof of something not having taken place.
You are dealing with someone to whom the most important thing in the world
is this Lauryn Hill person allegedly making an anti-pinkish-grey comment.
Do not argue with this person. He is a loon. Not only that, he is an
*obsessive* loon.
Iffen he got off that high horse of his, how would he fill his long, empty
days?
Madeleine "if he's got to have an obsession, let's all make sure it's a
nice *lonely* one, OK?" Page
--
Visit my home page! Sign my imaginary guestbook!
www.mpage.net
Sidhedevil
Meredith Robbins <meredi...@hellokitty.com> wrote:
> Sidhedevil wrote:
> >
> > In article <9421qr$12p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> > > But to come into an UL ng and say she never said it because she
> > > denied it is ridiculous. That is my point. I don't intend to
prove
> > > that she said it. But that doesn't mean she didn't.
> >
> > Yes, she certainly could have. But that wasn't what we were talking
> > about. You say that you believe she made a racist comment on MTV
> > because a) you remember seeing it on MTV, and b) other people have
> > alleged that she made that racist comment, or other racist comments.
> > That may well be convincing evidence for you, but it is not
terrifically
> > convincing for others.
> <snip>
>
> Especially considering that the lyrics of the Fugees and of Lauryn
> Hill's solo efforts are anything but racist.
<< Hill lyrics snipped >>
Weirder still, when I did a Google search for "Lauryn Hill" and
"racism," the most common result I got was for pages dealing with this
incident:
"Shock-jock apologizes for racist dragging murder/Lauryn Hill slur
WASHINGTON (AP) — A Washington-area shock jock who lost his job last
week for making a racially insensitive reference to the Texas dragging
death of James Byrd, Jr. apologized Wednesday "to anyone and everyone
who was hurt" by it.
"It was a pathetic attempt at morbid racial humor," said Doug "The
Greaseman" Tracht, who was fired from his morning drive job at WARW
Radio on Feb. 25.
After playing a portion of a song by Grammy-award winning recording
artist Lauryn Hill, Tracht had said, "No wonder people drag them behind
trucks."
The statement led station management to suspend him and sparked national
outrage among black leaders and broadcasters. After protests and a
deluge a phone calls WARW Radio fired Tracht."
More at
http://www.courttv.com/people/1999/0303/dj_ap.html
Isn't it possible that the call to the Howard Stern show that sparked
the controversy was made by an outraged "Greaseman" fan trying to
retaliate against Hill (who had not contacted WARW Radio re: the
"Greaseman" comment, by the way)?
Hill, by the way, called Stern to discuss the allegations. I haven't
seen a transcript of either the original call or Stern's conversation
with Hill.
<< Meredith's other comments snipped for space >>
There are a number of versions of the "famous Hill MTV comment" floating
around in cyberspace, ranging from "I don't care whether or not white
people buy my records" to "I would let my baby starve before I would let
a white person feed her." I still haven't found a real cite for any
such comment, though.
Sidhedevil "doesn't care who buys my books" the She-Devil
Sidhedevil
Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<<some snipping>>
>
> While one would be tempted to write this off as a fabrication, several
> individuals have claimed that Ms. Hill has made racially insensitive
> remarks on several different independent occasions.
-----> Here are some of the brilliant posts to this effect on the Deja
Usenet archives:
From: nik...@aol.com (NiKo KeF)
Subject: Re: Leave Lauryn Hill Alone!
Date: 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <19991130170045...@ng-cm1.aol.com>
References: <37fa504d...@usw-ex0107-050.remarq.com>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.fan.madonna
X-Admin: ne...@aol.com
first of all, lauryn hill is racist, she even said in her own words when
the fugees album was released 4 yrs ago, "id rather have my chidren
starve then white people buying my records" now that is SICK
-------> Another brilliant comment (with joke about the Paul McCartney
name-bungle)
From: onewa...@aol.comnocrap (S.Loerd)
Subject: Lauryn Hill-a racist?
Date: 18 Oct 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <19991018143312...@ng-ck1.aol.com>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.tv.mtv
X-Admin: ne...@aol.com
I heard somewhere that Lauryn Hill (Lawrence Hill in britian) is a
racist and hates white people, is this true? If so it sure does make the
listeners (which are 80% whites) look damn stupid shes just cashing in
on the sales but laughing all the way to the bank...LAME!!!!
-----> Here's someone else, who, when called on to provide a cite for
the story of Hill's racism he claimed to have "read in the New York
Times," came up with this brilliant answer:
From: steve...@aol.com (Steve33825)
Subject: Re: Lauryn Hill is racist
Date: 10 Aug 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <19990809223857...@ng-cc1.aol.com>
References: <7on0ds$keg$1...@orudios.magnet.at>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.rap
X-Admin: ne...@aol.com
<<Really? That's lucky because the NY Times allows you to search it's
articles on-line.>>
I live in new york city and read different news papers, it could of been
the NY times, it probably wasn't.
<<Maybe you could provide an actual cite for any newspaper that has
published an article that claims that Hill is racist.>>
I don't read them online
<<Don't post anything else to this newsgroup until you've found it. I
will accept a URL or a scan of the article in question, but nothing
else, as it is apparent that your memory is flawed.>>
I can't scan anything, and yes i admit my memory is somewhat flawed, the
name of the paper I don't remember, it was just when I was writing the
original message NY times popped into my head. So yes I admit there was
a flaw in my memory.
I do not hate Lauryn Hill, so there is no way I can be making this up, I
just wanted to hear your thoughts and opinions on it and just trying to
make some conversation, that's all I intended to do. I am not a racist
person.
------> (Me again) I read hundreds of posts and all that I got were the
above examples of intellectual pyrotechnics, and a lot of people saying,
"No, I know I heard her say that white people shouldn't buy her records
on MTV in 1996" and others responding, "No, dude, that was what the
How*rd St*rn show caller said in 1999, and you're remembering what he
said as your own memory."
Given that nobody has produced anything other than "I heard it from a
friend" or "I remember hearing it on MTV" as evidence for Hill's alleged
remark, I think it's pretty safe to assume it's a UL.
Sidhedevil "I never want to read any of the pro wr*stling groups again"
Mitcho
> I read hundreds of posts and all that I got were the
> above examples of intellectual pyrotechnics, and a lot of people saying,
> "No, I know I heard her say that white people shouldn't buy her records
> on MTV in 1996" and others responding, "No, dude, that was what the
> How*rd St*rn show caller said in 1999, and you're remembering what he
> said as your own memory."
However, I'm pretty sure I saw Johnny Carson make a joke with Lauryn
Hill about petting her cat.
Mitcho
--
The Urban Redneck : red...@goathill.net : Goat Hill, California
http://www.employees.org/~redneck
Sidhedevil
Madeleine Page <mp...@mpage.net> wrote:
> Sidhedevil <sidhe...@my-deja.com> writes:
> > Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> [snip over two hundred lines of passionate argumentation]
>
> Ummm.
>
> You're dealing with someone who kibozes for Lauryn Hill, so he can air
his
> Lifetime Pet Peeve.
Actually, he seems to have a few other pets, including the N*gro L*agues
and something about hockey.
>
> You are dealing with someone who takes issue with an archive site
because
> it fails to provide proof of something not having taken place.
Yes...for some reason, that frosts my cupcake.
>
> You are dealing with someone to whom the most important thing in the
world
> is this Lauryn Hill person allegedly making an anti-pinkish-grey
comment.
>
> Do not argue with this person. He is a loon. Not only that, he is an
> *obsessive* loon.
Fair enough. Sometimes I foolishly believe people will listen to
reason. What was I thinking?
Sidhedevil "instead of the voices in their heads" the She-Devil
Alan Follett
> AFol...@webtv.net wrote:
>> I'm getting very close to the point at
>> which an issue of /People/ will appear
>> on the newsstands in which I haven't
>> heard of anybody.
> I don't read /People/ much, but don't they
> usually have people like the President of
> the United States in it? Are you a United
> States of America resident? Does that
> mean that you soon won't know who your
> President is?
I am; and, currently, I believe I do. But I did sort of miss the Ford
Administration.
Alan "long story" Follett
R H Draney
Do screw up your courage just this once and get your hands on the 15
January 2001 issue (half of Carnie Wilson on the cover)...snopes is
mentioned on page 21, in a response to a reader who wants to know if she
should let her teenager forward an e-mail about McDonald's paying $1 for
each copy sent to treat epileptic children....
Haven't heard this particular variant, and should probably explain that
I was only reading it because my chiropractor's waiting room was backed
up this evening....
R H "also learned that Yoko Ono's been reunited with her daughter
Kyoko!" Draney
Paraic O'Donnell
Follett) wrote:
>I am; and, currently, I believe I do. But I did sort of miss the Ford
>Administration.
If you need to bone up, there's a book by John Updike.
Paraic "it's light on the actual *administration*, I'm afraid"
O'Donnell
Charles A Lieberman
www.deja.com/msgid.xp?MID=<945f7i$bb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>There are a number of versions of the "famous Hill MTV comment" floating
>around in cyberspace, ranging from "I don't care whether or not white
>people buy my records" to "I would let my baby starve before I would let
>a white person feed her."
That's quite a range: I don't see people being *angered* at the former
comment, even if they're a bit indignant. I can even, with a modicum of
effort, spin it into a statement of tolerance[1], which is not possible
with the second.
[1] Ok, here goes: she doesn't care whether white people buy her
records, because she doesn't see them as "white people" but simply as
"people." I don't imagine Ms. Hill thinks like that -- nor yet that she
even made the comment -- but the interpretation is...well, perhaps
"feasible" is pushing it, but not outside the realm of possibility.
Sidhedevil
Charles A Lieberman <yvro...@voicenet.com> wrote:
> Sidhedevil Thu, 18 Jan 2001 01:00:38 GMT
> www.deja.com/msgid.xp?MID=<945f7i$bb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
> >There are a number of versions of the "famous Hill MTV comment"
floating
> >around in cyberspace, ranging from "I don't care whether or not white
> >people buy my records" to "I would let my baby starve before I would
let
> >a white person feed her."
>
> That's quite a range: I don't see people being *angered* at the former
> comment, even if they're a bit indignant.
I'm not sure that I would believe it if I hadn't seen it myself. Some
other variants: "I'd rather let my children starve than have a white
person buy my record" and (the weirdest) "If white people don't buy my
records, I'll abuse my children."
I don't get it either.
<<CAL's further brilliance snipped for space>>
Sidhedevil "would rather let a Doberman choke than microwave a poodle"
Maggie Newman
>
>> No recording of Lauryn Hill saying this has been made public. It cannot
>> be known whether she said this.
>
>
At least this thread has accomplished one thing: in an earlier discussion
about the wisdom of putting asterisks into certain buzzwords to foil
kibozers, some expressed doubt that the practice really continues.
Evidently it does, but perhaps the subject matter has shifted a bit.
Maggie "Laur*n H*ll c*rc*mc*zed: sn*ff f*lm at 11" Newman
Nina Neudorfer
"Alan Follett" <AFol...@webtv.net> wrote
Didn't miss much.
--
Nina "I believe that Betty missed it as well"
~~~~~~~
My suspicion was that snopes did not want to be seen as being on the side of
Howard Stern.
---Ivan Zlatnik speculates on journalistic integrity, on alt.folklore.urban
Terence Smith
"Sidhedevil" <sidhe...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:945hid$2a5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
<Huge snip>
[Snipped from cited message}
> I do not hate Lauryn Hill, so there is no way I can be making this up, I
May I just say that that statement doesn't need an author, it needs a
universe of its own to be happy in.
Jerry Bauer
Phil Edwards
wrote:
>Some other variants: "I'd rather let my children starve than have a white
>person buy my record" and (the weirdest) "If white people don't buy my
>records, I'll abuse my children."
>
>I don't get it either.
>
>Sidhedevil "would rather let a Doberman choke than microwave a poodle"
>the She-Devil
Can I say I'd rather have a cup of tea than have sex with Boy George?
Phil "less protein" Edwards
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth/
"I mean you can tease and torment food and drink,
or go along with the design intent." - Casady
Tony Sweeney
>
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:09:43 GMT, Sidhedevil <sidhe...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Some other variants: "I'd rather let my children starve than have a white
> >person buy my record" and (the weirdest) "If white people don't buy my
> >records, I'll abuse my children."
> >
> >I don't get it either.
> >
> >Sidhedevil "would rather let a Doberman choke than microwave a poodle"
> >the She-Devil
>
> Can I say I'd rather have a cup of tea than have sex with Boy George?
>
> Phil "less protein" Edwards
And a lot less fat.
Tony "Catty? Moi? Meow." Sweeney.
Ivan Zlatnik
Sidhedevil <sidhe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> You are the one making the contention that she made this remark; in
> ordinary discourse, the person making a contention is the person who
> provides supporting evidence.
NO.
You are distorting what I have said.
I made the contention that the status of the UL should
be "undetermined."
I can make this claim, in part, because I heard her make a racially
insensitive remark. I don't expect anyone to believe me or give a rats
ass if you do. But someone with an ounce of common sense can see that
simply saying "It's false because she denied it and claimed it a bunch
of white racists making this up," does not constitute a
good "debunking."
> What did you "check" and why didn't you include that cite in your
post?
Because it is not central to my point. I don't know how to make this
any simpler, but simply saying that someone denied saying something
does not constitute a good debunking. Distracting you with a date she
allegedly said this is not central to the point at hand.
> > and Hill made her stupid statement on MTV in May of 1996.
> > This is not to be confused with the other stupid things she has
said.
>
> Again, you have no backup other than your own contention. From what
> source did you derive that month and date?
From the dejanews archives (which are no longer there) and because I
know what I was doing at the time I heard it. If you are interested, I
am sure you can peruse the archives provided by the troglodytes who
record such stuff.
> > > Again, which "people who have worked with her?" You don't have
any
> > > cites here, you just seem to have remembered seeing it on TV.
> That's
> > > not exactly compelling evidence.
> >
> > I am not trying to make a case that everyone has to accept she said
> > it.
>
> I think you are, actually.
No. I am saying that "she denied it" is not a debunking.
>
> > But to come into an UL ng and say she never said it because she
> > denied it is ridiculous. That is my point. I don't intend to prove
> > that she said it. But that doesn't mean she didn't.
>
> Yes, she certainly could have. But that wasn't what we were talking
> about.
NO.
That is precisely what we were talking about. Someone asked (for the
hundredth time) whether Lauryn Hill said _____. I read the question
and did not reply. Someone else (actually a few other people) answered
this by posting the link to snopes and at least one person said it
constituted "a good debunking." It does not. And I replied. It
essentially says that she didn't say it and the evidence is that there
are denials all around. There is no "We watched the interview in
question and this is what she said..." or "the person who was actually
intervewed who said that was Sister Souljah..." or anything like that.
> You say that you believe she made a racist comment on MTV
> because a) you remember seeing it on MTV, and b) other people have
> alleged that she made that racist comment, or other racist comments.
I don't know how to make this simple enough for you to understand
I don't expect people to believe what I believe because people didn't
see the same thing I did. Isn't that obvious? What I do expect is for
people to use a bit of common sense and read things (including
substandard "debunkings" from snopes) critically. Isn't that what this
n/g is all about?
> That may well be convincing evidence for you, but it is not
terrifically
> convincing for others.
<sigh>
> > MTV news, may 1996
>
> No, that would not be a definitive citation. A definitive citation
> would be: "Tuesday, May 14, 1996 'The Week in Rock'" or "'An
Interview
> with Lauryn Hill,' hosted by Kurt Loder, first aired Wednesday, May
15,
> 1996."
>
> Or, "as cited in James Wolcott, 'The Mystery of Lauryn Hill,' Vanity
> Fair, June, 1997."
>
> You saying that that is when you saw it is not an objectively
verifiable
> citation.
The date she allegedly said this has nothing to do with my point. I
don't know why you are trying to make it so.
> > 2) remarks like that wouldn't be in keeping with the Snopesites'
> > perception of her.
> >
> > I don't know what you are talking about here.
>
> I have no connection with the Snopes cite, and don't know what they're
> basing their judgment on.
The Snopes site is simply accepting the argument that the situation
with Ms. Hill is that any time a strong woman of color wants to express
some pride, white racists will feel threatened and try to take her down.
While the above argument is true in many cases, that does not make it
true in all cases. Snopes should know better.
> >For example, Lauryn
> Hill
> > performs with and associates with Five Percenters.
>
> What is this? Is this a group of some kind? I have never heard of
it.
There are plenty of resources on the web where Five Percenters are
discussed.
<snip dictionary.com>
> of the word. Jean's using the word "vigilante" does not imply any
> endorsement of Ferguson's aims or actions. "Vigilante" is not a
> positive term in the vast majority of contexts.
We disagree about Wyclef Jean's use of this term
> Okay, are you saying that the Fugees are members of this "Five
> Percenter" group? Or that by performing with them, they give credence
> to that political viewpoint? Charlton Heston and Barbra Streisand
have
> appeared onstage together, yet they could not be more different
> politically.
when did Barbra Stresiand and Charlton Heston perform together? When
did Charlton Heston perform on a Barbra Stresand album? It is very
unlikely situation. If one was an avowed racist, I seriously doubt the
other would want to perform together.
The issue was that an earlier poster felt that it was difficult to
believe that Lauryn Hill would have said such a thing, given the
impression one gets from the snopes site about Ms. Hill and what she is
all about.
I do not know whether Lauryn Hill considers herself a Five-Percenter.
I do know that in 1996, back when Lauryn Hill was dishing out the
questionable comments, the Fugees were touring with the Poor Righteous
Teachers and performed on their album. It doesn't get much more Five
Percenter than the Poor Righteous Teachers. I do read that Ms. Hill
hangs out with people like Nas and Method Man. I'm sorry, I don't
recall where off the top of my head.
I am not a racist. I do not associate with racists. Maybe Lauryn Hill
does not have the same standards I have in the friends she chooses.
But please don't tell me that it is impossible to believe that she
would have said such a thing in 1996, given the company she was keeping.
> But this is what you did: Someone posted the question, "Did Lauryn
Hill
> make a racist statement on TV?" You posted the response, "My opinion
is
> that she did." Someone else posted the response, "Snopes has a
> refutation of it." You posted the remark, "The Snopes refutation is a
> load, because that's just their opinion."
No.
I don't know why you are making these claims.
I did not reply to the original question. I am not able to offer
conclusive evidence about what Ms. Hill said so I didn't reply to it.
I only replied to the use of the snopes page to debunk the issue.
> See above. Your argument is, "Despite any factual evidence, I believe
> Hill made the statement because I have a vague memory of hearing it,
and
> my perception of her is that she would make that kind of statement."
> How is your contention any different from the one on the Snopes site?
I am only claiming you can't say it didn't happen based on the evidence
provided on the Snopes site. I am not claiming to have irrefutable
evidence that it did happen. See the difference?
> Um, I've never seen a post from you on this group before. Do you
> regularly grep Usenet for references to Hill, or did you just happen
to
> be passing by and become passionately interested in this discussion,
and
> this discussion only?
Those are awfully harsh words from someone who has distorted whatI have
said. I have been posting to this n/g for several years. Not that I
have to justify this to you. I do not open my yap to respond to every
thread.
> So you claim, in any case. But you haven't posted any evidence to
> bolster your claim, so for now, I think it's best labeled "unknown."
>
> Sidhedevil "opinion v. opinion" the She-Devil
<sigh>
That is the point I have been trying to make.
Ivan Zlatnik
Sidhedevil <sidhe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Isn't it possible that the call to the Howard Stern show that sparked
> the controversy was made by an outraged "Greaseman" fan trying to
> retaliate against Hill (who had not contacted WARW Radio re: the
> "Greaseman" comment, by the way)?
I estimate the likelihood that an outraged Greaseman fan would make a
1996 phone call to the Howard Stern show to protest a firing that would
take place in 1999 to be less than 50%.
Ivan Zlatnik
red...@employees.org wrote:
> Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > No recording of Lauryn Hill saying this has been made public. It
cannot
> > be known whether she said this.
>
> Amazing. A person who kibozes for "lauryn hill."
>
Amazing. A half-wit who accuses anyone who doesn't open his yap at
every single thread as a kibozer.
Mitcho
> Amazing. A half-wit who accuses anyone who doesn't open his yap at
> every single thread as a kibozer.
And so good at making friends and influencing people you are too!
Brian Scearce
> But someone with an ounce of common sense can see that simply saying
> "It's false because she denied it and claimed it a bunch of white
> racists making this up," does not constitute a good "debunking."
You're correct, but the snopes page says more than that. It points
out that nobody (not just you) seems to be able to produce evidence
of this having happened, despite the fact of Hill being a public
figure and this particular statement usually being attributed to
a public forum.
That's not proof, of course, and you and Popper can argue whether
snopes should mark it "false" or "undetermined", but the evidence
is a little stronger than just "she denied it". It's more along
the lines of "we've had this web page up for many months, and we're
relatively well-known for debunking false stories. Nobody's sent
proof to us yet, despite the fact that if the story were true, it
would be pretty easy to produce such proof". Negative evidence
can't get *qualitatively* any better than that.
> There is no "We watched the interview in question and this is what
> she said..."
The problem with ULs is that the "interview in question" can vary
easily. A would-be debunker who does exactly what you suggest will
most likely meet the reply, "It must have been some other show
then". In fact, I don't think a statement like that would really
strengthen the snopes debunking. How could it? All it would mean
was that Hill has sometimes said other things, which is not an
issue under contention.
> What I do expect is for people to use a bit of common sense and
> read things (including substandard "debunkings" from snopes)
> critically.
I think people *are* doing that, but that your perceptions of
acceptable negative evidence differ from theirs.
--
Brian Scearce b...@best.com
Read, think, (possibly) post -- do not alter this order.
Sidhedevil
The *recent* controversy, not the *1996* controversy, silly.
Hey, I heard that Mr. Rogers said that the Earth was founded by giant
green aliens from the Planet Triton! Prove me wrong!
Sidhedevil "whatever" the She-Devil
Ivan Zlatnik
b...@best.com (Brian Scearce) wrote:
> Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > But someone with an ounce of common sense can see that simply saying
> > "It's false because she denied it and claimed it a bunch of white
> > racists making this up," does not constitute a good "debunking."
>
> You're correct, but the snopes page says more than that. It points
> out that nobody (not just you) seems to be able to produce evidence
> of this having happened, despite the fact of Hill being a public
> figure and this particular statement usually being attributed to
> a public forum.
Of course, none of us have access to the archives at MTV to figure out
what she actually said that seems to have led to this..."confusion,"
shall we say? And she was hardly the public figure then that she is
now. As someone else in this n/g said, she may not have even been the
most famous person in the band at that time.
> That's not proof, of course, and you and Popper can argue whether
> snopes should mark it "false" or "undetermined", but the evidence
> is a little stronger than just "she denied it". It's more along
> the lines of "we've had this web page up for many months, and we're
> relatively well-known for debunking false stories. Nobody's sent
> proof to us yet, despite the fact that if the story were true, it
> would be pretty easy to produce such proof". Negative evidence
> can't get *qualitatively* any better than that.
...except when the appearance can be traced to a particular date.
Remember the "Tommy" rumors and the various Johnny Carson rumors and so
forth involve things that were allegedly said, but have not dates
attached to them. Heck, let's have MTV release the actual broadcast.
Moreover, what kind of evidence would you expect people to have? Of
the fairly small number of people who were watching MTV at 11 pm or
whatever on some day in May 1996, are you expecting that people have
their VCR's running all the time? Would you expect MTV to be willing
to release controversial videotape that would upset a record label
publicist?
What can I tell you? I heard it. I have seen postings from other
people who say they heard it. Maybe they're all lying. Maybe I'm
lying (!). But what do you expect me to do when I know what I heard
and I sit here and see someone say "It didn't happen and my proof is
that this webpage said it's false and it didn't happen because you
can't prove that it did and people deny it and claim it was it is a
bunch of white racists."
> The problem with ULs is that the "interview in question" can vary
> easily. A would-be debunker who does exactly what you suggest will
> most likely meet the reply, "It must have been some other show
> then".
Except that in this case, the incident sparked an event that was
recorded in Dejanews and on the show. It is tied to a particular
date/time.
> In fact, I don't think a statement like that would really
> strengthen the snopes debunking. How could it? All it would mean
> was that Hill has sometimes said other things, which is not an
> issue under contention.
When the UL says someone said X on date Y, going to date Y and showing
that the person did not say anything remotely similar to X is a good
debunking. On the other hand, saying the person's publicist denies it
and claims it is the creation of a bunch of racists is not.
> > What I do expect is for people to use a bit of common sense and
> > read things (including substandard "debunkings" from snopes)
> > critically.
>
> I think people *are* doing that, but that your perceptions of
> acceptable negative evidence differ from theirs.
I disagree with you. It is a matter of consistency. I read a recent
snopes page regarding an UL that the FDA will make herbal drugs
available by prescription only. The contention is ludicrous, for a
variety of reasons. Moreover, there is no evidence, no public
statement from any member of Congress, no popular demand for any such
action (NB there is some demand to regulate herbal products, but
absolutely nothing to make them prescription only). There is no source
given in the UL for this bit of information. There is no one posting
to deja news claiming to have heard this information with their own
ears. And snopes position: "Undetermined" It is undetermined because
it is impossible to prove that there isn't some member of Congress
secretly hammering away at such an absurd bit of legislation.
There is sometimes a problem with using snopes because the criteria
vary. Does "false" mean it has been proven false or that in
Mikkelson's judgement it probably is false? Does "false" mean the
person never said anything of the sort, or does it simply mean the
person never said precisely that or could have said a less severe
version of that.
Snopes is at its best when it collects information to illustrate the
weakness in these ULs. It is weakest when it is simply the personal
judgement of its authors. It is a fine source for debunking in the
former context. It is a poor source for debunking in the latter.
Sidhedevil
Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <s21c6.11007$1%2.48...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> b...@best.com (Brian Scearce) wrote:
> > Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > > But someone with an ounce of common sense can see that simply
saying
> > > "It's false because she denied it and claimed it a bunch of white
> > > racists making this up," does not constitute a good "debunking."
> >
> > You're correct, but the snopes page says more than that. It points
> > out that nobody (not just you) seems to be able to produce evidence
> > of this having happened, despite the fact of Hill being a public
> > figure and this particular statement usually being attributed to
> > a public forum.
>
> Of course, none of us have access to the archives at MTV to figure out
> what she actually said
If anything.
> that seems to have led to this..."confusion,"
> shall we say? And she was hardly the public figure then that she is
> now. As someone else in this n/g said, she may not have even been the
> most famous person in the band at that time.
>
> > That's not proof, of course, and you and Popper can argue whether
> > snopes should mark it "false" or "undetermined", but the evidence
> > is a little stronger than just "she denied it". It's more along
> > the lines of "we've had this web page up for many months, and we're
> > relatively well-known for debunking false stories. Nobody's sent
> > proof to us yet, despite the fact that if the story were true, it
> > would be pretty easy to produce such proof". Negative evidence
> > can't get *qualitatively* any better than that.
>
> ...except when the appearance can be traced to a particular date.
What date is that? Please supply the date and I will call MTV and get a
transcript of the entire day's broadcast. I will happily pay the costs
of that myself, just to end this stupid thing once and for all.
> Remember the "Tommy" rumors and the various Johnny Carson rumors and
so
> forth involve things that were allegedly said, but have not dates
> attached to them.
But nobody has given a date. "Sometime in May 1996" is not a date. In
your first post, you thought it was 1995.
> Heck, let's have MTV release the actual broadcast.
>
> Moreover, what kind of evidence would you expect people to have? Of
> the fairly small number of people who were watching MTV at 11 pm or
> whatever on some day in May 1996, are you expecting that people have
> their VCR's running all the time?
Video transcripting services have made transcripts of the day's
broadcasts. On what date do you believe the interview to have taken
place?
> Would you expect MTV to be willing
> to release controversial videotape that would upset a record label
> publicist?
Yes. They do it all the time. Look at the controversy around the
murder of Tupac Shakur. MTV released transcripts from interviews with
Biggie Smalls and other rappers who were involved in conflicts with
Shakur.
>
> What can I tell you? I heard it. I have seen postings from other
> people who say they heard it. Maybe they're all lying.
I prefer the word "mistaken." I looked at a lot of these postings and
they don't seem very convincing. Maybe you have some better
information, but you haven't offered it here. You refer to it, but you
don't give it. That makes your argument seem less than convincing.
> Maybe I'm
> lying (!).
Maybe you are.
> But what do you expect me to do when I know what I heard
> and I sit here and see someone say "It didn't happen and my proof is
> that this webpage said it's false and it didn't happen because you
> can't prove that it did
That actually seems like quite a good argument. Are you suggesting, "I
didn't believe this happened because nobody can produce any convincing
proof that it did" is not a good argument for disbelieving in something?
I think it's the bedrock of the scientific method.
> and people deny it and claim it was it is a
> bunch of white racists."
>
> > The problem with ULs is that the "interview in question" can vary
> > easily. A would-be debunker who does exactly what you suggest will
> > most likely meet the reply, "It must have been some other show
> > then".
>
> Except that in this case, the incident sparked an event that was
> recorded in Dejanews and on the show. It is tied to a particular
> date/time.
I have researched this extensively, and there is no single date attached
to this supposed interview anywhere on the Internet. If you find a
date, I will be happy to get transcripts for that day's MTV programming.
>
> > In fact, I don't think a statement like that would really
> > strengthen the snopes debunking. How could it? All it would mean
> > was that Hill has sometimes said other things, which is not an
> > issue under contention.
>
> When the UL says someone said X on date Y, going to date Y
What is "date Y?" You seem to believe that there is some particular
date that this is attributed to. I have not found it in hours of
searching.
> and showing
> that the person did not say anything remotely similar to X is a good
> debunking. On the other hand, saying the person's publicist denies it
Hill denied it herself, in a telephone call to Howard Stern's program.
Howard believed her. Why don't you?
> and claims it is the creation of a bunch of racists is not.
How about saying that "there is no evidence that it happened, and nobody
has put forth any convincing evidence that it happened, and the person
who is accused of it has denied it?" That seems like a pretty good
debunking, at least until the convincing evidence is put forward.
>
> > > What I do expect is for people to use a bit of common sense and
> > > read things (including substandard "debunkings" from snopes)
> > > critically.
> >
> > I think people *are* doing that, but that your perceptions of
> > acceptable negative evidence differ from theirs.
>
<<snip the rest of this bizarre stuff>>
Okay, Mr. Zlatnik. Here is my challenge to you: Supply the date on
which Hill's supposed racist remark on MTV took place, along with some
reasonable corroborating evidence that that is the date in question
(e.g., three or more posters citing the same date in isolation; coverage
in a newspaper or magazine, or on a television or radio program).
Once a date has been established, I will obtain transcripts for that
day's MTV broadcasts (6:00 a.m. EST through midnight EST) from
Burrelle's or another video transcripting service, and I will pay a
third party to review them for any references to, or statements by,
Lauryn Hill, and to type up all of those references into one
time-coded document. I will then have that document sent to you by
email or snail-mail (your preference) and send a copy to Barbara and
David Mikkelson as well. Then we can all review it together and draw
our own conclusions.
This whole thing would probably cost me a thousand dollars or so, but it
would be worth it just to resolve this.
Sidhedevil "feeling kind of like James Randi now" the She-Devil
Ivan Zlatnik
Sidhedevil <sidhe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
<snip>
and nobody
> has put forth any convincing evidence that it happened, and the person
> who is accused of it has denied it?" That seems like a pretty good
> debunking, at least until the convincing evidence is put forward.
I will see if I find the exact date it happened. I don't think it will
be in Burrelle's. Burrelle's 1) is edited and 2) might just give you
those things said in studio. This would be a taped interview that they
would cut to. You would want the actual video and not a transcript
made after the fact.
L-N shows Lauryn Hill coming up on MTV five times in the first half of
1996. Get the video from each of these.
14. Radio TV Reports, Mtv News 10:50 am; Mtv-ca; US, May 29, 1996,
10:50am; ET, MTV, Cable, National, 453 words, Tabitha Soren.
15. Radio TV Reports, MTV NEWS; MTV; US, May 17, 1996, 12:50pm;
ET, MTV, Cable, National, 400 words, Kurt Loder
16. Radio TV Reports, MTV NEWS; MTV; US, May 15, 1996, 10:50am;
ET, MTV, Cable, National, 373 words, Kurt Loder
17. Radio TV Reports, WEEK IN ROCK; MTV; US, March 16, 1996,
12:30pm; ET, MTV, Cable, National, 1453 words, Kurt Loder
18. Radio TV Reports, MTV nws; mtv; US, March 13, 1996, 10:50am;
ET, MTV, Cable, National, 293 words, Tabitha Soren
One potential is the March 16, 1996. A lot of people seem to recall it
being during a Kurt Loder segment. Claiming fair use:
<<The Fugees has hit the scene with a new style of rap and hip-hop. (C)
FU-GE-LA video (SB) Lauryn Hill describes the group's origin. (SB) Hill
says we sort of seek refuge from all the hostilities. (C) VOCAB video
(SB) Hill says we're trying to build this film type cinema thing. (SB)
Wyclef Jean says in the sense of settling the score, for those who
thought I didn't have lyrical skills, it's the big payback. (SB) The
group explains the group's diversity. (C) NAPPY HEADS performance (SB)
Jean says you can come to a Fugee show and get the same thing you'd get
at a Guns and Roses show.>>
<snip>
>I will then have that document sent to you by
> email or snail-mail (your preference) and send a copy to Barbara and
> David Mikkelson as well. Then we can all review it together and draw
> our own conclusions.
Not necessary. Just let them know that you and I agree that the origin
should be "unknown" or "undetermined" and not "False" as they currently
claim.
Sidhedevil
Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <94s2ub$oko$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Sidhedevil <sidhe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> and nobody
> > has put forth any convincing evidence that it happened, and the
person
> > who is accused of it has denied it?" That seems like a pretty good
> > debunking, at least until the convincing evidence is put forward.
>
> I will see if I find the exact date it happened. I don't think it
will
> be in Burrelle's. Burrelle's 1) is edited and 2) might just give you
> those things said in studio. This would be a taped interview that
they
> would cut to. You would want the actual video and not a transcript
> made after the fact.
Oh, right, because Burrelle's would have edited out any damaging things
Lauryn Hill would have said. Um, I think you are getting a little
paranoid about this.
>
> L-N shows Lauryn Hill coming up on MTV five times in the first half of
> 1996.
You find the date and I will get an unedited video transcript from a
video transcripting service. Burrelle's sells both edited and unedited
transcripts, and there are several other services that do the same.
> One potential is the March 16, 1996. A lot of people seem to recall
Find a date corroborated either by three independent recollections or a
media citation and I will be happy to obtain transcripts of the entire
day's programming on MTV.
>
> >I will then have that document sent to you by
> > email or snail-mail (your preference) and send a copy to Barbara and
> > David Mikkelson as well. Then we can all review it together and
draw
> > our own conclusions.
>
> Not necessary. Just let them know that you and I agree that the
origin
> should be "unknown" or "undetermined" and not "False" as they
currently
> claim.
>
I said that, like, ten posts ago. If it were *my* page, I would have
tagged it something like "Denied by Lauryn Hill; no convincing evidence
has ever been offered to support this claim." I agree that it is not as
cut-and-dried as the Tommy
Hilfiger-is-claimed-to-have-said-x-on-Oprah-but-was-never-on-Oprah
situation, given that Lauryn Hill has certainly appeared on MTV on many
occasions.
But you know, I do not write the snopes pages, and I don't expect them
to follow my standards or suggestions.
I still think the only "load" here is your repeated assertion that you
*know* you heard her make a racist remark "in 1995 or 1996, definitely
in May 1996, but maybe it was March 16, 1996, anyway, lots of other
people heard it, so it must be true."
But if you do come up with one date, I will be happy to follow up on it.
Sidhedevil
Viv
:Moreover, what kind of evidence would you expect people to have? Of
:the fairly small number of people who were watching MTV at 11 pm or
:whatever on some day in May 1996, are you expecting that people have
:their VCR's running all the time? Would you expect MTV to be willing
:to release controversial videotape that would upset a record label
:publicist?
There is no such thing as bad publicity.
MTV would probably be more than happy for their public profile to be
raised at the expense of people (perhaps) buying less Fugee records,
in my opinion.
The record label may even be prepared to sacrifice the Fugees for
higher ratings for MTV and therefore for their other artists.
Vivienne "" Smythe
--
"...but if AFU isn't for finding out that my teachers were
wrong, what *is* it for?"
[Nathan Tenny flounders amidst the angst arising from USENet]
**** You decide what AFU is for: www.urbanlegends.com ****
Brian Scearce
> I still think the only "load" here is your repeated assertion that
> you *know* you heard her make a racist remark "in 1995 or 1996,
> definitely in May 1996, but maybe it was March 16, 1996, anyway,
> lots of other people heard it, so it must be true."
In addition to the flexibility in the date, there's also the
substance of the quote. Back near the start of the thread, Mr.
Zlatnik said:
I saw an interview on MTV where she was asked how
she felt about her crossover success. Her reply
was something along the lines that she did not make
music for white people.
Now, some people would consider that an insensitive racial remark,
but it's a lot less inflammatory than the usual version of the
story. And "along the lines" leaves room too. Suppose the interview
actually took place, and the question and answer were:
MTV: Your records until recently sold mostly to
black audiences, but with the release of your
latest, there's been tremendous crossover success
and more white kids are buying your stuff. Has
that branching out been deliberate on your part?
How do you feel about it?
HILL: I write and perform my music from a black
perspective and I'm addressing it to a black
audience. I'm not trying to gain a white audience.
If that were the exchange, Mr. Zlatnik would probably claim victory,
but I'd say that that's so far from the point of the story as it
is usually told that it would be fair to mark the UL "false".
Ivan Zlatnik
b...@best.com (Brian Scearce) wrote:
<snip>
> If that were the exchange, Mr. Zlatnik would probably claim victory,
> but I'd say that that's so far from the point of the story as it
> is usually told that it would be fair to mark the UL "false".
You make it sound so adversarial. And you continue to misrepresent
what I am saying. Are you intentionally doing this?
I don't see any victory in whatever she said. My point is only
tangentially related to exactly what she said.
My point is that you can't go around saying, "she said nothing of the
sort..." and then see little evidence other than people (with a vested
interest in denying the story) denying it and claiming the whole thing
was made up by white racists and/or callers to a particuar radio show.
If someone came out and said, "I fell asleep with my VCR on and taped
this and what she actually said was <insert your example>, which may
not have been the best choice of words, but is not at all what many are
claiming she said on MTV." that would be a good debunking of the UL
that she went on MTV and said something really bad. And it would shed
some light on the situation.
I would claim victory if it were marked "false" in this situation
(which is what you suggest) because it would be a proper debunking of a
false claim. Not one person making a character judgement about another
person without attempting to get at the facts. Or just saying, "it has
been debunked," and citing a webpage without understanding that the
webpage didn't debunk anything.
david
>My point is that you can't go around saying, "she said nothing of the
>sort..." and then see little evidence other than people (with a vested
>interest in denying the story) denying it and claiming the whole thing
>was made up by white racists and/or callers to a particuar radio show.
I've been reading this thread, and I'm a bit surprised that nobody at
least admits that it's at least a fairly strange debunking.
In summary:
Somebody repeats a story that Lauryn Hill said something offensive
on MTV. Given the time span, there's only a few specific dates
when she could have done this.
Lauryn Hill comes out and says, yes, I did say something that
could be misconstrued, but it wasn't what people think it was.
What I really said was:
"What I did say was that I love my people, black people, and
I will continue to make music for them."
Nobody bothers to pull up the videotape to see what she said exactly.
This isn't a matter of proving a negative. We know there's a quote
regarding who she makes her music for that was shown on MTV during an
interview in early 1996, this is just a matter of finding out exactly
what the quote is.
If the FAQ said "Hill claims she said X, and we looked at the tape and
she really did say X", that would have some substance to it. But
"Hill claims she said X, MTV agrees and we believe them" might be
reasonable, but you can't really call it a debunking.
Personally, I doubt she said, and I couldn't care less one way or
another, but the FAQ has hardly debunked the rumor. It's just reported
a denial.
And capping off the supposed debunking with a statement like "Common
sense leads us to think no artist would be foolish enough to request
any segment of the record-buying public boycott her works" is
absolutely ridiculous. By the same reasoning, should we conclude that
Eminem has never said anything offensive to party of the record-buying
audience? Pop stars say stupid things all the time, especially those
with a bit of political awareness.
Sidhedevil
da...@noplace.com (david) wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:59:47 GMT, Ivan Zlatnik wrote:
>
> >My point is that you can't go around saying, "she said nothing of the
> >sort..." and then see little evidence other than people (with a
vested
> >interest in denying the story) denying it and claiming the whole
thing
> >was made up by white racists and/or callers to a particuar radio
show.
>
> I've been reading this thread, and I'm a bit surprised that nobody at
> least admits that it's at least a fairly strange debunking.
The debunking to which you refer is not in the NG's FAQ, but in another
website on Urban Legends (www.snopes.com). Given that the Mikkelsons,
its creators and hosts, do this as a labor of love, it would seem odd
for frequenters of the NG to lambaste them for not writing individual
pages the way they (the frequenters) would.
I, myself, would probably tag the UL "Unproven, and unlikely," rather
than "False." I, and others on this thread, have said this and
adumbrated the reasons in *great* detail. But I did not write the snopes
page, and I forbear from telling the Mikkelsons how to write it.
Mr. Zlatnik, however, seems to know it all. Except for when this famous
statement by Lauryn Hill was supposedly made. Oh, and how to create a
convincing sock puppet.
Sidhedevil "Is there a Dr. Kevorkian for threads?" the She-Devil
Tom Sevart
> I, myself, would probably tag the UL "Unproven, and unlikely," rather
> than "False."
While it is unproven and unlikely, I think false is a fitting tag in the
absence of any evidence that it ever happened. Whether or not Lauryn Hill
ever said anything to the effect, I have no idea, but the rumor is that she
appeared on MTV and said either that she doesn't want white people to buy
her records, she would rather let her children starve than have white people
buy her records, or that if she'd known that white people would buy her
album she wouldn't have recorded it.
That's the rumor, but yet not one solitary person has ever come forward with
any videotape of her making this statement, plus MTV & Hill herself have
denied that it ever happened. If anyone would know where to find the tape,
MTV should.
It's hard to prove a negative, I know, but unless anyone comes up with
credible evidence, calling the rumor "false" is fine with me.
Mike Holmans
<n2...@yahoo.com> writes
>
>"Sidhedevil" <sidhe...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:95f1il$g4p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>> I, myself, would probably tag the UL "Unproven, and unlikely," rather
>> than "False."
>
>While it is unproven and unlikely, I think false is a fitting tag in the
>absence of any evidence that it ever happened.
>It's hard to prove a negative, I know, but unless anyone comes up with
>credible evidence, calling the rumor "false" is fine with me.
>
Round this way, we don't tend to call something False (F. in the FAQ)
unless we got cites and stuff. What this is, is "Believed False" (Fb.),
because we're pretty much convinced that it's bollocks but we aren't
absolutely sure because we haven't quite run this one to earth.
Mike "but we'll call it something different in FAQ ME" Holmans
--
"I have loud content-free opinions regardless of who's listening."
- Charles Lieberman
http://www.urbanlegends.com - The One True Archive
Ivan Zlatnik
da...@noplace.com (david) wrote:
> Nobody bothers to pull up the videotape to see what she said exactly.
yes. It isn't in anyone's interest to pull that videotape and it isn't
like this is in some video library...so these "show us the videotape"
claims are somewhat disingenuous.
<snip>
> Personally, I doubt she said, and I couldn't care less one way or
> another, but the FAQ has hardly debunked the rumor. It's just reported
> a denial.
I echo your sentiments.
I like you description of this being at least a "fairly strange
debunking." The truth is that the webpage initially had it
marked "undetermined" and noted that this quote didn't quite fit the
characteristics of the Tommy-type quotes. It was actually changed
around the time that Ms. Hill was getting more popular and the rumor
was getting coverage in the media. Like someone was afraid of being
offensive or being put in the spotlight.
I hope this isn't going to be a problem in snopes. It has been a very
good compilation of ULs and debunkings. This item makes me concerned
that some people feel that their newfound expert status makes their
personal opinions and character judgements qualify as debunkings.
I was going through it recently and there was one of those Person X
said <<insert stupid statement>> that was (correctly) debunked
as "false" without at least noting that it was Person X's colleague
Person Y who had made the offensive statement and the reason for the UL
was people being confused between person X and person Y. It was like
if they gave the complete and thorough debunking they were afraid of
offending person Y.
> Pop stars say stupid things all the time, especially those
> with a bit of political awareness.
Yes.
Mitcho
> I was going through it recently and there was one of those Person X
> said <<insert stupid statement>> that was (correctly) debunked
> as "false" without at least noting that it was Person X's colleague
> Person Y who had made the offensive statement and the reason for the UL
> was people being confused between person X and person Y. It was like
> if they gave the complete and thorough debunking they were afraid of
> offending person Y.
Why so coy? So who were X and Y?
Jay R. Ashworth
Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <slrn97m0jn...@tristan.local.dom>,
> da...@noplace.com (david) wrote:
> > Nobody bothers to pull up the videotape to see what she said exactly.
>
> yes. It isn't in anyone's interest to pull that videotape and it isn't
> like this is in some video library...so these "show us the videotape"
> claims are somewhat disingenuous.
And, indeed, this assumes that that tape *still exists*. Those
'outside television' often fail to appreciate *just* how ephemeral
broadcasting has become since the fall of film. There are lots of
'things you saw on TV' that simply don't exist anywhere anymore.
Except maybe on someone's VHS.
Is there a central swap-meet site for off-air tapers?
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth j...@baylink.com
Member of the Technical Staff Baylink
The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think
Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015
Tom Sevart
"Jay R. Ashworth" <j...@dorothy.msas.net> wrote in message
news:slrn9835k...@dorothy.msas.net...
> >
> > yes. It isn't in anyone's interest to pull that videotape and it isn't
> > like this is in some video library...so these "show us the videotape"
> > claims are somewhat disingenuous.
>
> And, indeed, this assumes that that tape *still exists*.
No, this assumes the tape existed in the first place.
Jay R. Ashworth
Tom Sevart <n2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Jay R. Ashworth" <j...@dorothy.msas.net> wrote in message
>
> No, this assumes the tape existed in the first place.
Well, ok, stipulated; but awards shows and the like usually see tape
for a *while* at least, because they're news.
Drew Lawson
j...@baylink.com writes:
>On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:42:12 -0600,
> Tom Sevart <n2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Jay R. Ashworth" <j...@dorothy.msas.net> wrote in message
>> > And, indeed, this assumes that that tape *still exists*.
>>
>> No, this assumes the tape existed in the first place.
>
>Well, ok, stipulated; but awards shows and the like usually see tape
>for a *while* at least, because they're news.
*All* MTV shows are recorded, which allows them to rerun them
repeatedly. And after that, they are used as source material for
collage shows pieced together with voiceover.
Drew "Meta-TV" Lawson
--
Drew Lawson | Stories of tortures used by debauchers
dr...@furrfu.com | lurid, licentious and vile
http://www.furrfu.com | make me smile
Sidhedevil
j...@baylink.com wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:42:12 -0600,
> Tom Sevart <n2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "Jay R. Ashworth" <j...@dorothy.msas.net> wrote in message
> > > And, indeed, this assumes that that tape *still exists*.
> >
> > No, this assumes the tape existed in the first place.
>
> Well, ok, stipulated; but awards shows and the like usually see tape
> for a *while* at least, because they're news.
No, no, no. Are you being purposely obtuse? There may be no tape of
the "incident" because it may never have occurred (that's what happened
to the tape of Johnny, Zsa Zsa, and her cat, for example).
Sidhedevil "and the Soupy Sales thing" the She-Devil
Lauren Mekeel - Wolfer
something along the lines of: "I'd rather have a white person die than
buy my record." and I can't seem to find anything to prove him wrong. I
seem to remember similar misquotes from Tommy Hilfiger and Mariah
Carrey, but I just can't seem to find any info on the Lauryn Hill one.
Can anyone help me out with this?
--
"Most people don't know that throwing a kitten on the floor doesn't
hurt, their bones are made for this! I learned this amusing fact when I
was serving in Indonesia." ~BonsaiKitten.com
Maggie Newman
> My boyfriend seems to be convinced that Lauryn Hill once said
>something along the lines of: "I'd rather have a white person die than
>buy my record." and I can't seem to find anything to prove him wrong. I
>seem to remember similar misquotes from Tommy Hilfiger and Mariah
>Carrey, but I just can't seem to find any info on the Lauryn Hill one.
>Can anyone help me out with this?
>
There's a good debunking at http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lauryn.htm
Maggie
AFol...@webtv.net
> something along the lines of: "I'd rather have a white person die than
> buy my record." and I can't seem to find anything to prove him wrong. I
> seem to remember similar misquotes from Tommy Hilfiger and Mariah
> Carrey, but I just can't seem to find any info on the Lauryn Hill one.
> Can anyone help me out with this?
>
Mmm, I do believe you've introduced a new variation on the faux-quote.
Anyway, Lauryn Hill didn't say anything like this. See:
http://www.snopes2.com/quotes/lauryn.htm
Alan "Would rather have Mariah Carrey die than see Lauryn Hill buy Tommy
Hilfiger's album, or any permutation of the above[1]" Follett
[1] Who are these folks, anyway? [2]
[2] I'm getting very close to the point at which an issue of /People/ will
appear on the newsstands in which I haven't heard of anybody.
Donna Richoux
> My boyfriend seems to be convinced that Lauryn Hill once said
> something along the lines of: "I'd rather have a white person die than
> buy my record." and I can't seem to find anything to prove him wrong. I
> seem to remember similar misquotes from Tommy Hilfiger and Mariah
> Carrey, but I just can't seem to find any info on the Lauryn Hill one.
> Can anyone help me out with this?
>
See:
Did Lauryn Hill say she'd rather die than have whites buy her albums?
http://www.snopes2.com/quotes/lauryn.htm
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
Ivan Zlatnik
>
> There's a good debunking at http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lauryn.htm
>
> Maggie
>
>
how does anything on that page debunk the UL? It is one person's
opinion. that isn't a debunking at all.
Ivan Zlatnik
AFol...@webtv.net wrote:
> In article <93vvsb$afa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Lauren Mekeel - Wolfer <michelle...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > My boyfriend seems to be convinced that Lauryn Hill once said
> > something along the lines of: "I'd rather have a white person die than
> > buy my record." and I can't seem to find anything to prove him wrong. I
> > seem to remember similar misquotes from Tommy Hilfiger and Mariah
> > Carrey, but I just can't seem to find any info on the Lauryn Hill one.
> > Can anyone help me out with this?
> >
>
> Mmm, I do believe you've introduced a new variation on the faux-quote.
> Anyway, Lauryn Hill didn't say anything like this.
BZZT. WRONG.
Lauryn Hill probably did say something like that. the problem is that
she has probably made several racially insensitive remarks. I saw an
interview on MTV [1] where she was asked how she felt about her crossover
success. Her reply was something along the lines that she did not make
music for white people.[2]
There is anecdotal evidence that she has made racially insensitive
remarks on several different occasions. The disturbing thing about the
Lauryn Hill quotes is that they involve different quotes and different
encounters over a period of time. Note the Hilfiger quote and others of
its ilk typically involve one consistent incident.
> See:
>
> http://www.snopes2.com/quotes/lauryn.htm
If you bother to read the snopes site, you will see that they have no
facts to support Lauryn Hill not making racially insensitive remarks on
several occasions. While snopes is usually pretty good about getting to
the truth behind an UL, in this case it purely just one person't opnion.
Which is definitely NOT a debunking. Bad snopes! Bad!
There is actually an ugly truth to the matter with the page at snopes.
Originally, they probably had it correct and noted that this UL did not
match the typically pattern of faux quotes.[3] The original conclusion
from snopes was that the status was "unknown" but gave kind of a "where
there's smoke, there's fire" to the strange combination of independent
incidents with Lauryn Hill and racism. But in an act of perhaps
political correctness, it was changed around the Grammy Awards a few
years ago when the rumor heated up. My suspicion was that snopes did not
want to be seen as being on the side of Howard Stern.[4]
A day or two after the unfortunate quote on MTV,[5] Stern was remarking
how he liked the music. Callers to the show pointed out that this person
made a racist remark on MTV. Some of the callers made the quote sound
worse than it was, as I recall. Hill called the show to "clear up the
misunderstanding." This incident was also recorded in usenet in the
howard stern ng.
So this is not a Tommy H. quote. There was at least one original quote
that needed clearing up. There is no MTV denial about Hill making such a
quote. This is not the only allegation. Snopes used to make this point.
And I am sure you can look at one of the websites of the gnomes who
record everything on the Howard Stern show, you'll find a reference of
this happening.[6]
[1] This was probably in 1995
[2] I'm sorry I don't run my VCR 24 hours a day
[3] I don't know how to get access to old Snopes pages. It used to come
up in a google search.
[4] This issue of political correctness at Snopes is not unique
[5] I do not usually listen to this Howard Stern show, but happened to be
listening when this issue came up.
[6] I do not track everything that happens on this Howard Stern show, but
know that some people find this to be an interesting hobby.
Ivan Zlatnik
Lauren Mekeel - Wolfer <michelle...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> something along the lines of: "I'd rather have a white person die than
> buy my record." and I can't seem to find anything to prove him wrong. I
> seem to remember similar misquotes from Tommy Hilfiger and Mariah
> Carrey, but I just can't seem to find any info on the Lauryn Hill one.
> Can anyone help me out with this?
The correct answer:
No recording of Lauryn Hill saying this has been made public. It cannot
be known whether she said this.
While one would be tempted to write this off as a fabrication, several
individuals have claimed that Ms. Hill has made racially insensitive
remarks on several different independent occasions. These incidents have
ranged from a stupid thing she said on MTV to accounts from people who
have worked with her on tour. The quotes from the incidents vary
substantially, but all involve racist overtones.
This pattern does not fit the Tommy Hilfiger notion of the UL gravitating
to a single incident.
The snopes "debunking" is a load. Read it and see for yourself.
Viv
:So this is not a Tommy H. quote. There was at least one original quote
:that needed clearing up. There is no MTV denial about Hill making such a
:quote.
Snopes says that MTV has in fact denied it.
:This is not the only allegation. Snopes used to make this point.
Snopes still makes the point that many people claim that she has made
other racist statements, but that not one of these claims has been
verified.
Apparently Hill often does say how proud she is to be making music for
black people:
*****************
On numerous other occasions, she has denied saying anything remotely
resembling the statement credited to her. In response to her critics,
she offered: "What I did say was that I love my people, black people,
and I will continue to make music for them." (snopes.com)
****************
Being proud of making music that acts as a positive role model for
blacks does not equate to hating whites in my book, but I can imagine
that some loons might misunderstand it that way and regurgitate their
misunderstandings to others.
Vivienne "" Smythe
--
Everything you know is wrong. Your teachers lied. Your
parents were lied to. Your siblings and co-workers hate you
and want to see you fail. Have a nice day.
[Simon Slavin comforts kay w on alt.folklore.urban]
Ivan Zlatnik
> Recently, Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> :So this is not a Tommy H. quote. There was at least one original
quote
> :that needed clearing up. There is no MTV denial about Hill making
such a
> :quote.
>
> Snopes says that MTV has in fact denied it.
MTV denied what? Snopes says MTV denied what? Is MTV denying
interviewing Lauryn Hill? Is MTV denying that Lauryn Hill said
something racially insensitive? If so, what did she say? This would
be quite easy to debunk.
Snopes claims that the people who saw Hill say something racially
insensitive are slanderers. If Hill is being slandered, then by all
means, this interview should be shown to the world to end this vicious
rumormongering! Let's have the band's publicist air this interview and
show the slanderers to be the liars they are!
> :This is not the only allegation. Snopes used to make this point.
>
> Snopes still makes the point that many people claim that she has made
> other racist statements, but that not one of these claims has been
> verified.
Uh...what do you mean by verified? That someone didn't have their tape
running at the time? It's not like a lot of people didn't see it.
> Apparently Hill often does say how proud she is to be making music for
> black people:
>
> *****************
> On numerous other occasions, she has denied saying anything remotely
> resembling the statement credited to her.
Oh, well I guess if she denies saying racially insensitive things, then
that settles it. Please call Mark Fuhrman and forward him my apologies.
In response to her critics,
> she offered: "What I did say was that I love my people, black people,
> and I will continue to make music for them." (snopes.com)
> ****************
>
> Being proud of making music that acts as a positive role model for
> blacks does not equate to hating whites in my book, but I can imagine
> that some loons might misunderstand it that way and regurgitate their
> misunderstandings to others.
Snopes/you seems to be insinuating that Ms Hill is being targeted by
slanderers because she dares to show pride in her race. The support
for this contention seems to be nothing stronger than the fact that Ms.
Hill has denied making racist statements and that no one happened to
record Ms. Hill making these insensitive statements, other than MTV who
has chosen not to air the video.
This, friend, does not constitute a debunking. It is an opinion.
Sidhedevil
Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <93vvsb$afa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Lauren Mekeel - Wolfer <michelle...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > My boyfriend seems to be convinced that Lauryn Hill once said
> > something along the lines of: "I'd rather have a white person die
than
> > buy my record." and I can't seem to find anything to prove him
wrong. I
> > seem to remember similar misquotes from Tommy Hilfiger and Mariah
> > Carrey, but I just can't seem to find any info on the Lauryn Hill
one.
> > Can anyone help me out with this?
>
> The correct answer:
>
> No recording of Lauryn Hill saying this has been made public. It
cannot
> be known whether she said this.
>
> While one would be tempted to write this off as a fabrication, several
> individuals
Which individuals, other than you? "Several individuals" have claimed
that Elvis is still alive. Guess what--he isn't.
>have claimed that Ms. Hill has made racially insensitive
> remarks on several different independent occasions. These incidents
have
> ranged from a stupid thing she said on MTV
in 1995? Ms. Hill was rarely the spokesperson for the Fugees; her
bandmate Wyclef Jean was the most often interviewed member of the group.
Hill's solo career did not take off until later in the decade.
> to accounts from people who
> have worked with her on tour.
Again, which "people who have worked with her?" You don't have any
cites here, you just seem to have remembered seeing it on TV. That's
not exactly compelling evidence.
>The quotes from the incidents vary
> substantially, but all involve racist overtones.
Okay, then--a famous person is described as having a serious
failing/character flaw/lack of judgment, the descriptions of which vary
substantially, but all of which involve the same failing, which would be
ironic given the individual's overall reputation? This is a pretty
common structure for ULs.
>
> This pattern does not fit the Tommy Hilfiger notion of the UL
gravitating
> to a single incident.
Actually, the "Tommy Hilfiger's racism" story had a number of
variants--he was rumored to have made a racist remark on "Oprah," on
"Regis and Kathy Lee," on the "Today" show, on "David Letterman," and to
a reporter for the New York Times. There was also some kind of mythos
about semaphore flags coding racist slurs or something in one or more of
his clothing designs.
> The snopes "debunking" is a load. Read it and see for yourself.
The snopes entry boils down to two things, just about: 1) Nobody has
ever offered a definitive citation for even one racist remark by Lauryn
Hill, and 2) remarks like that wouldn't be in keeping with the
Snopesites' perception of her. I agree that 2) is an opinion, but 1)
still seems like a pretty strong debunking--or at least a good
suggestion not to jump to conclusions.
Why do you care so much that people think Lauryn Hill is prejudiced
against white people? And why can't you find any objective information
to back up your view?
Sidhedevil "killing me softly" the She-Devil
spo...@best.com
> My boyfriend seems to be convinced that Lauryn Hill once said
> something along the lines of: "I'd rather have a white person die than
> buy my record." and I can't seem to find anything to prove him wrong.
We can't let that state of affairs continue; suppose you were to end
up marrying him? Bad precedent, and all that. Think of the (potential)
children.
See http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lauryn.htm
Barbara "yet another marriage saved before it begins" Mikkelson
--
Barbara Mikkelson | And of course we all know that all Canadians
spo...@best.com | are virtuous and never exaggerate for effect.
| - James Linn
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Urban legends and more --> http://www.snopes.com
Ulo Melton
<soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>No recording of Lauryn Hill saying this has been made public. It cannot
>be known whether she said this.
No recording of Ivan Zlatnik saying he has a half-inch penis has been
made public. It cannot be known whether he said this.
>While one would be tempted to write this off as a fabrication, several
>individuals have claimed that Ms. Hill has made racially insensitive
>remarks on several different independent occasions.
While one would be tempted to write this off as a fabrication, several
individuals have claimed that Mr. Zlatnik has bemoaned his penis size
on several different independent occasions.
>These incidents have
>ranged from a stupid thing she said on MTV to accounts from people who
>have worked with her on tour.
These incidents have ranged from a stupid thing he said on Usenet to
accounts from people who have read stupid posts by him on Usenet.
>The quotes from the incidents vary
>substantially, but all involve racist overtones.
The quotes from the incidents vary substantially, but all involve a
penis not exceeding five-eighths of an inch in length.
>This pattern does not fit the Tommy Hilfiger notion of the UL gravitating
>to a single incident.
This penis does not fit the standard notion of a useful organ.
>The snopes "debunking" is a load. Read it and see for yourself.
The Zlatnik "penis" is considerably less than a load. View it and see
for yourself.
--
Ulo Melton (melt...@sewergator.com)
http://www.sewergator.com - Your Pipeline to Adventure
Mitcho
> No recording of Lauryn Hill saying this has been made public. It cannot
> be known whether she said this.
Amazing. A person who kibozes for "lauryn hill."
Mitcho
--
The Urban Redneck : red...@employees.org : Goat Hill, California
http://www.employees.org/~redneck
Leo G Simonetta
<red...@employees.org> wrote:
>Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No recording of Lauryn Hill saying this has been made public. It cannot
>> be known whether she said this.
>
>Amazing. A person who kibozes for "lauryn hill."
Further proof (as if any were necessary) that not only is the
world stranger than we know it is stranger than we can imagine.
Leo "No Kibo Number" Simonetta
--
"You missed your true calling. You should work for the KGB
as an interrogation officer." Joe Bruno on the meanyheads
of afu
Ivan Zlatnik
Sidhedevil <sidhe...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Which individuals, other than you? "Several individuals" have claimed
> that Elvis is still alive. Guess what--he isn't.
You can search dejanews if you like and find some of them and email
them. I am sorry I cannot provide you with their names. I know what I
heard.
> in 1995? Ms. Hill was rarely the spokesperson for the Fugees; her
> bandmate Wyclef Jean was the most often interviewed member of the
group.
> Hill's solo career did not take off until later in the decade.
I checked and Hill made her stupid statement on MTV in May of 1996.
This is not to be confused with the other stupid things she has said.
> Again, which "people who have worked with her?" You don't have any
> cites here, you just seem to have remembered seeing it on TV. That's
> not exactly compelling evidence.
I am not trying to make a case that everyone has to accept she said
it. But to come into an UL ng and say she never said it because she
denied it is ridiculous. That is my point. I don't intend to prove
that she said it. But that doesn't mean she didn't.
> Actually, the "Tommy Hilfiger's racism" story had a number of
> variants--he was rumored to have made a racist remark on "Oprah," on
> "Regis and Kathy Lee," on the "Today" show, on "David Letterman," and
to
> a reporter for the New York Times. There was also some kind of mythos
> about semaphore flags coding racist slurs or something in one or more
of
> his clothing designs.
>
> > The snopes "debunking" is a load. Read it and see for yourself.
>
> The snopes entry boils down to two things, just about: 1) Nobody has
> ever offered a definitive citation for even one racist remark by
Lauryn
> Hill
MTV news, may 1996
2) remarks like that wouldn't be in keeping with the Snopesites'
perception of her.
I don't know what you are talking about here. For example, Lauryn Hill
performs with and associates with Five Percenters. Five Percenters are
just the type of people to emit racist nonsense, call racist lunatics
like Colin Ferguson a vigilante (as Wyclef Jean has done) and then hide
behind this "we're just proud of our race and if you try to hold us
reponsible for what we say, you are a white racist." Just as the
Fugees have done.
> I agree that 2) is an opinion, but 1)
> still seems like a pretty strong debunking--or at least a good
> suggestion not to jump to conclusions.
Here, we're in agreement. I don't expect anyone to believe that Lauryn
Hill said these things because someone on usenet said so. But...when
you have someone like Lauryn Hill associating with known racists, and
accused in many contexts of saying racist things, you can't just
say, "oh, she denied saying it and claimed it was a bunch of racists
trying to slander her so she must not have said it." That is
nonsense. But it is exactly what snopes does in this case.
Snopes has a category for things that can't be resolved. Absurd
stories that are almost certainly untrue...if they cannot be proven to
be untrue, snopes stamps them "unknown."
> Why do you care so much that people think Lauryn Hill is prejudiced
> against white people? And why can't you find any objective
information
> to back up your view?
I don't give a rats ass if some pathetic millionaire is a racist. I
pity them. But if someone is presented with an urban legend about
someone uttering racist garbage, just saying, "Oh, she said it was a
bunch of white racists trying to slander her, so this has been
debunked." This is particularly absurd because I sat there and heard
her say it.
cms
Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:940dqf$m6a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> > Recently, Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Snopes says that MTV has in fact denied it.
>
> MTV denied what? Snopes says MTV denied what? Is MTV denying
> interviewing Lauryn Hill? Is MTV denying that Lauryn Hill said
> something racially insensitive? If so, what did she say? This would
> be quite easy to debunk.
MTV is saying they have no interview where Lauryn Hill says anything akin to
the remark attributed to her. They don't got it. You believe that they do
have a tape (or that an interview went on the air that MTV somehow doesn't
have a tape for) in which she makes some racially insensitive remark which
is a version (perhaps a slightly less offensive version, but a version
nonetheless) of the one attibutted to her, something like "I don't like it
when white people buy my records."
Consider this question for a moment: In an alternate universe where Lauren
Hill never said anything at all like the above remark, and therefore MTV has
no tape of her saying anything like the above remark, how could they prove
that to you? Is there any way that you could believe that they have no tape?
Or do you take as your starting point the fact that such a remark was made,
and that therefore MTV should have a tape of it?
I'm not offering anything up as proof here either way, but it seems to me
like you're using circular reasoning, and that there's no way that anyone
could prove to you that she didn't say it. So why bother having the
discussion, if you're never going to change your mind?
cms - and have you stopped beating your wife?
David Martin
>
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 02:23:26 -0800, Mitcho
> <red...@employees.org> wrote:
>
> >Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> No recording of Lauryn Hill saying this has been made public. It cannot
> >> be known whether she said this.
> >
> >Amazing. A person who kibozes for "lauryn hill."
>
> Further proof (as if any were necessary) that not only is the
> world stranger than we know it is stranger than we can imagine.
>
> Leo "No Kibo Number" Simonetta
This is the second kibozer (kibozo?) we've had in a few days.
It's probably just coincidence that both were for musical acts,
but it make me wonder how many kibozos there are. I'm guessing
we've got a few around here who occasionally kiboze "urban
legend". Of course that's understandable, but Gr*nd F*nk?
David "Kibo loves me" Martin
Drew Lawson
Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Recently, Ivan Zlatnik <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> :So this is not a Tommy H. quote. There was at least one original
>quote
>> :that needed clearing up. There is no MTV denial about Hill making
>such a
>> :quote.
>>
>> Snopes says that MTV has in fact denied it.
>
>MTV denied what? Snopes says MTV denied what? Is MTV denying
Are the voices in your head disagreeing with each other? *You*
brought up the MTV denial ("There is no MTV denial...") and now
you don't know *what* denial is being discussed?
Drew "Loons are only enjoyable near the water" Lawson
cms
Cite, then.
If she's made many racist remarks and associates with Five percenters, and
this is common knowledge, you ought to be able to provide many cites for
this. Newspaper articles, magazines, interview transcrips, anything. Just
send in the URL.
cms - I'll even pay the $2.50 to call up Times archive articles.
Nina Neudorfer
"Ivan Zlatnik" <soyle...@hotmail.com> wrote
> You can search dejanews if you like and find some of them and email
> them. I am sorry I cannot provide you with their names. I know what I
> heard.
>
"I know what I heard." Hmmm.
Did y'all reopen the m*tt* competition while I was away?
Nina "I see 'do my home/legwork' is still around..."
--
Happily rebuilding sig. file.
Thank you for your cooperation.
pads...@gmail.com
Julian Macassey
<pads...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm hear to find this out so there must be some truth
clip of this.
In these days of Youtube, there should be a clip somewhere, yet no one
canm find it.
So, yes, it is untrue, unless someone can prove otherwise.
--
Guantanamo has become the gulag (of) our times, entrenching the
notion that people can be detained without any recourse to the
law. - Amnesty International 25 May 2005