Sundown Towns?

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Gerald Belton

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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On Wed, 17 May 2000 11:07:38 -0500, Andrew Reid <re...@nwu.edu> wrote:

> Interestingly, Clarence Page's column in today's (May 17th)
>Chicago Tribune is about post-cards of lynchings, which are
>on exhibit somewhere hereabouts. The motive of the exhibit
>is of the "lest we forget" sort, but not everybody (black
>or white) is thrilled with this idea.

And isn't it odd that the Jack Daniels distillery is located in a town
called Lynchburg? Isn't that like a town in Germany being called
"FinalSolutionVille?"

Gerald "folk etymology R us" Belton


Trystero4

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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I still don't buy the theory that since things like "no coloreds allowed in
town after sundown" were "unsavory" and not "newsworthy" that it explains why
there are no pictures of them. If things like that were acceptable many
decades back there should be plenty of evidence that they existed. There are
numerous photos of Klan gatherings, blackface shows, "whites only" placards
etc. Hell you can still buy "Amos and Andy" videos. Is there some big
conspiracy to destroy all evidence of "sundown town" signs?

Jay Denebeim

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <8%zU4.15$%c6....@typhoon.sonic.net>,
David Hatunen <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:

>I'm old enough to retroactively regret not going with my friends to
>Selma and that means I'm old enough to be aware of the trappings of
>Jim Crow.

Speaking of which, Cheryl and I stopped at Selma on one of our trips.
Her mom went to the protest and Cheryl thought it would be a good
thing to help keep her in touch with her mom. We couldn't find a
thing memorializing the event while we were there. Quaint town
though.

Jay
--
* Jay Denebeim Moderator rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: b5...@deepthot.org *
* moderator contact address: b5mod-...@deepthot.org *
* personal contact address: dene...@deepthot.org *

Trystero4

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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<< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>


Loewen's entire point is that the U.S. version of history is distorted and
white-washed. Loewen points out that American History Textbooks ignore the
negative things that the "white-man" have done.

K. D.

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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"Trystero4" <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote in message
news:20000517143325...@ng-md1.aol.com...

Some would apparently think so. Or have us think so.

I grew up in suburban central NY state. The homeowner three doors up had a
black lawn jockey for many years. It didn't ever dawn on me that it was
racist -- I thought it was just a statue of a person who happened to be
black. He had one of those lawn globes, too, and I didn't attach any
particular meaning to that, either! BTW, I don't know if anyone has any
pictures of the lawn jockey or not.

Let's see the pics of the "no coloreds allowed in town after sundown"
already. If such evidence doesn't exist, or can't be found, well, so be it.

-KD

David Hatunen

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <20000517143919...@ng-md1.aol.com>,

Well, duh. History is written by the winner. What else is new?

--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@sonic.net) ***********
* Daly City California *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******

Arminius

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <3922DBF7...@mindspring.com>,
RM Mentock <men...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>
> I meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
> My Teacher Told Me, take on it? Is Loewen presenting
> it as a Lie, and if so how is he countering it? And
> if Loewen is using it to counter some Lie, what Lie
> is he countering?

The lie Loewen is referring to is one of omission. Mentions of
lynchings, sundown towns, and the like are noticeably absent from most
high school textbooks.

Loewen's latest book, _Lies Across America_, is a similar critique of
American national monuments. He includes much more detail on sundown
towns in this book.

--
Arminius

A problem is an opportunity to do your best.
--Duke Ellington


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

David Hatunen

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <3922e5d0.21871459@localhost>,

Folk as you can get since the word "Lynch" comes from the name of
Mr William Lynch.

Dave "But who was Herr Endloesung?" Hatunen

Arminius

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <8fup4t$42va$3...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
"K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Let's see the pics of the "no coloreds allowed in town after sundown"
> already. If such evidence doesn't exist, or can't be found, well, so
be it.

James Loewen, _Lies Across America_, offers substantial documentation
of this phenomenon. I am not sure about photos, but enough
documentation to prove the existence of sundown towns by a large
preponderance of the evidence.

David Hatunen

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <20000517143325...@ng-md1.aol.com>,
Trystero4 <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote:
>I still don't buy the theory that since things like "no coloreds
>allowed in town after sundown" were "unsavory" and not

>"newsworthy" that it explains why there are no pictures of them.

Now I didn't say there were no pictures; I said they would be hard
to come by.

>If things like that were acceptable many decades back there should
>be plenty of evidence that they existed. There are numerous
>photos of Klan gatherings, blackface shows, "whites only" placards
>etc. Hell you can still buy "Amos and Andy" videos. Is there
>some big conspiracy to destroy all evidence of "sundown town"
>signs?

Furrfu.

David Hatunen

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <8fuost$5cq$1...@dent.deepthot.org>,

Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.org> wrote:
>In article <8%zU4.15$%c6....@typhoon.sonic.net>,
>David Hatunen <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
>
>>I'm old enough to retroactively regret not going with my friends
>>to Selma and that means I'm old enough to be aware of the
>>trappings of Jim Crow.
>
>Speaking of which, Cheryl and I stopped at Selma on one of our
>trips. Her mom went to the protest and Cheryl thought it would be
>a good thing to help keep her in touch with her mom. We couldn't
>find a thing memorializing the event while we were there. Quaint
>town though.

Not even a mounted fire hose nozzle, eh?

Nathan Tenny

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <20000517143919...@ng-md1.aol.com>,
Trystero4 <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote:
><< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
>My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
>
>
>Loewen's entire point is that the U.S. version of history is distorted and
>white-washed. Loewen points out that American History Textbooks ignore the
>negative things that the "white-man" have done.

That doesn't really answer the question.

We've got a quote out of context from Loewen that shows that he *mentions*
the "sundown towns" story. I can't tell from that quote whether he mentions
it to say that it's true, or that it's one of the lies teachers tell, or
something else entirely.

NT
--
Nathan Tenny | Words I carry in my pocket, where they
Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA | breed like white mice.
<nten...@qualcomm.com> | - Lawrence Durrell

Lee Rudolph

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) writes:

>>And isn't it odd that the Jack Daniels distillery is located in a
>>town called Lynchburg? Isn't that like a town in Germany being
>>called "FinalSolutionVille?"
>>
>>Gerald "folk etymology R us" Belton
>
>Folk as you can get since the word "Lynch" comes from the name of
>Mr William Lynch.

That's *Captain* William Lynch (1742-1820), of Pittsylvania in
Virginia; whereas Lynchburg, Virginia, the original from which
all other Lynchburgs are named, is called after John Lynch,
who established a ferry there in 1757.

Lee "might have been relatives, though" Rudolph

Ian Munro

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.org> wrote:
> Speaking of which, Cheryl and I stopped at Selma on one of our trips.
> Her mom went to the protest and Cheryl thought it would be a good
> thing to help keep her in touch with her mom. We couldn't find a
> thing memorializing the event while we were there. Quaint town
> though.

How long ago was that? A quick jaunt around the web makes it clear that
there are plenty of memorials now.

Ian "do most of my travelling by web" Munro
--
"It isn't a 'line of reasoning'; it's a squiggle of flawed analysis and
erroneous conclusion."--Paraic O'Donnell


David Hatunen

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <8fus14$rps$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

Arminius <armi...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <8fup4t$42va$3...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> "K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Let's see the pics of the "no coloreds allowed in town after


>> sundown" already. If such evidence doesn't exist, or can't be
>> found, well, so be it.
>
>James Loewen, _Lies Across America_, offers substantial
>documentation of this phenomenon. I am not sure about photos, but
>enough documentation to prove the existence of sundown towns by a
>large preponderance of the evidence.

As someone who was around for segregation and generalized
discrimination I am fascinated by the apparent reluctance of some
posters to accept that the phenomenon existed. On the one hand I am
saddened in sort of Santayanish way, and on the other hand
gladdened that so many now consider it unthinkable.

Drew Lawson

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <8fus4d$a...@qualcomm.com>

nten...@qualcomm.com writes:
>In article <20000517143919...@ng-md1.aol.com>,
>Trystero4 <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote:
>><< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
>>My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>

>We've got a quote out of context from Loewen that shows that he *mentions*


>the "sundown towns" story. I can't tell from that quote whether he mentions
>it to say that it's true, or that it's one of the lies teachers tell, or
>something else entirely.

Well, the book's not in reach, but having read it, I'm confident
that it is one of his examples of things that are left out of the
sanitized school-house version.

It's really a pretty good book, though unfortunately the author
falls victim to the biases that he derides in the establishment.
I forget the issues, but recall that he delivered a couple "facts"
that I'd seen well debunked.

And, anyway, I was pissed that he stole the title I intended to
use for the book that I haven't started writing yet.


Drew "can't divide by zero, my ass" Lawson
--
|Drew Lawson | If you're not part of the solution |
|dr...@furrfu.com | you're part of the precipitate. |
|http://www.furrfu.com/ | |

Drew Lawson

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <JKCU4.32$%c6....@typhoon.sonic.net>
hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) writes:

>As someone who was around for segregation and generalized
>discrimination I am fascinated by the apparent reluctance of some
>posters to accept that the phenomenon existed. On the one hand I am
>saddened in sort of Santayanish way, and on the other hand
>gladdened that so many now consider it unthinkable.

For me it is a bit of a two sided effect. First of all, I'm young
enough (and middle class enough) that I didn't really see much of
the bad things. We lived where we lived, and most of the people
were white, and no one ever referred to it as a "white neighborhood,"
so I thought the problems were long gone.

Yea, naive, but it was the suburbs.


On the other hand, I've developed strong reactionary filters for
things like the "picnic" and "jig is up" stories that we see
circulating. While I have no doubt that people, and societies,
can do evil things to the powerless, I'm hesitant to accept each
instance of alleged bad doings.

So, I can see how "sundown towns" could be covered up by history,
but I can also see how a dozen *real* towns could become hundreds
of legendary towns.


Drew "proud of the South, but not of every detail" Lawson

Jay Denebeim

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <8fusvu$ci2$2...@pulp.srv.ualberta.ca>,
Ian Munro <ian....@ualberta.ca> wrote:

>How long ago was that? A quick jaunt around the web makes it clear that
>there are plenty of memorials now.

Couple years ago. Lemme put it this way, we heard of the existance of
stuff from our trusty AAA Map 'n Go, however nothing was to be had at
the tourist center indicating where anything could be found.

Doesn't mean they wern't there, just that there were no references in
the obvious place to go to find stuff like that.

Jay "heck, the garden of eden has signs on the interstate for it"
Denebeim

Olivers

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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Personal sightings, one of which lasted until 1970 or so....

Greenville, Texas, Main Square, Wall sign, "Greenville, Home of the
Blackest Dirt and the Whitest People"

Comanche County, Texas (Northwest Texas, no African Americans, no
Republicans - then) - "N****r, Don't Let The Sun Set On Your Back In
This County!"

Documentation - None
Cites - None

The formalized structure and mechanics of Jim Crow are difficult to
convey to those who have never seen them or comprehended their
complexity and pervasiveness. There were/are in some parts of the South
neighbor communities, one all black, the other all white, while just
down the road would be a Galveston where housing patterns were almost
impossible to distinguish by mapping.

From personal experience, with the exception of an African American
"Upper Middle Class" removed to suburbia (along with some other
racial/ethnic groups of similar income profile), housing patterns seem
far more clearly drawn and defineable today than they were forty years
ago. Jim Crow's not gone, simply unsigned and almost as deeply
ingrained.

--
TMOliver - el pelon sinverguenza

"Alle kunst ist unsonst,
wenn ein Engel in das Kundloch prunst."

Becca Ward

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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On Wed, 17 May 2000, K. D. wrote:

> Let's see the pics of the "no coloreds allowed in town after sundown"
> already. If such evidence doesn't exist, or can't be found, well, so be it.

I'm not certain why you think that only one particular type of evidence is
sufficient to establish the fact that such signs existed. However,
perhaps, if you are truly interested in the issue, you might want to
investigate the account given in Loewen's _Lies My Teacher Told Me,_
mentioned by others elsewhere in this thread, and the following news
articles:

Roberta Scruggs, editorial published in the _Portland Press Herald,_
October 31, 1998, at 7A (Scruggs recalls growing up in rural Alabama,
north of Birmingham, and seeing signs posted about "no blacks after
sundown"); Julian Bolger, "Paradise Lost," _The Guardian,_ October 6, 1998
(Features) at 2 (Bolger interviews former resident of Henryetta, Oklahoma
who recalls signs); Mike Konrad, "Heeding county's history lessons," _St.
Petersburg Times,_ March 9, 1998 at 1 (recalls seeing signs while growing
up in downstate Illinois); Carl Love, "Lake Elsinore's supporting cast
adds to debate," _Press-Enterprise_ (Riverside, California), March 25,
1997 (Local) at B01 (councilmember of Lake Elsinore, CA, recalls seeing
such signs in her hometown in Missouri); Richard Stewart, "Desegregation:
'Nothing's to change in Grand Saline,'" _Houston Chronicle,_ October 17,
1993 (State) at 1 (long-term residents of Grand Saline, Texas, state that
signs were once posted on outskirts of town); Emily Hone, "Time for
bridge-building on both sides?", _Ethnic News-Watch/Sho-Ban News,_ Vol.
15, No. 48, p. 10, December 19, 1991 (Hone reports that town of Blackfoot
once had signs announcing "No Indians Allowed" and "black people were
posted out of town at sundown"); Bill Bond, "Be Sure charter boats are
properly licensed," _Orlando Sentinel Times,_ November 20, 1991 (Lake
Sentinel) at 1 (reporting that in the 1950s, Ocoee in west Orange County,
Florida, had a sign on the outskirts warning blacks to be out of down by
sunset).

Becca Ward

--
Everyone I used to know who can swear in French
is now dead. -- James Pruitt

David Hatunen

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <39230390$0$2...@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
Drew Lawson <dr...@furrfu.com> wrote:

>So, I can see how "sundown towns" could be covered up by history,
>but I can also see how a dozen *real* towns could become hundreds
>of legendary towns.

On the other hand, many sundown towns didn't put up signs; they had
other ways of getting the message across.

In the days of Jim Crow, even in the North, there were a lot of
lily-white towns, and the smaller they were the easier they were to
keep that way.

AFol...@webtv.net

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <3vyU4.5$%c6....@typhoon.sonic.net>,
hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) wrote:
> In article <03880df4...@usw-ex0104-033.remarq.com>,
> wajohnc <johnNO...@hersham0.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> >In article <39224C82...@mindspring.com>, RM Mentock
> ><men...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>Trystero4 wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Adding to my own post... After a brief search the only
> >>> reference to "sundown towns" I could find was in "Lies My
> >>> Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got
> >>> Wrong" by James W. Loewen. "Some small communities in the
> >>> Midwest and West became "sundown" towns, informally threatening
> >>> African Americans with death if they remained overnight" (165)
> >>>
> >>> Hmmmm "some" small communities? Not very specific is it?
> >>
> >>Worse: ambiguous. Is it a Lie, or not? Where did you find this?
> >>I couldn't find it in altavista or google ('cause I couldn't boot
> >>it!)
> >>
> >
> >If you choose to persist with your google search, you'll
> >eventually come across this link:
> >http://www.indianahistory.org/freeman.htm
> >I won't make further comment as it's not really my territory.
>
> Anita Hill is quoted mentioning a sundown town at
> http://www.minorities-jb.com/women/womanpower/anitahill9.html
>
> But these are something that went out of "style" many years before
> the web came about, and it's unlikely that there's much to be found
> on web servers about "sundown towns".
>
>
Out of style, perhaps, but not, alas, entirely vanished. Last
September, a very reliable and level-headed poster on alt.callahans
gave a first-hand account of having encountered a billboard to this
effect in southwestern Missouri as recently as 1994. See:

http://x26.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=529385538

Alan "signs of former times" Follett

Lisa Cech

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <39230390$0$2...@nntp1.ba.best.com>, dr...@furrfu.com (Drew
Lawson) wrote:
(snip)

> So, I can see how "sundown towns" could be covered up by history,
> but I can also see how a dozen *real* towns could become hundreds
> of legendary towns....

>
> Drew "proud of the South, but not of every detail" Lawson

Not just the South, though. And not just against blacks. My mother grew
up in a small town in Delaware. The town has a huge peach orchard, with
the attendant need for manual labor. When the Mexicans were in town for
harvest, they were locked in a barracks building at sundown so as to not
cause anxiety to the delicate white folk. She also told me about
"Colored Town," the other side of the tracks (literally) where all the
black people lived. She said it was simply "known" that blacks stayed in
Colored Town after dark.

I do believe her on this, having seen Colored Town with my own eyes in
the early '70s (although it wasn't as stringent a situation then). And
the Mexicans being locked up has been mentioned by other family members
from the town.

Lisa "Hey, they can't ALL be lying, can they?" Cech

Opus the Penguin

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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K. D. wrote:
>He had one of those lawn globes, too, and I didn't attach any
>particular meaning to that, either!

What's a lawn globe? Does it have a "particular meaning"?
--

Opus the Penguin

Opus the Penguin

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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David Hatunen wrote:
>When I was young and growing up in Warren Ohio our neighboring town
>of Niles had such a "Nigger don't let the sun set on you" sign at
>the city limits.

What did it look like? Was it an official sign or crudely hand-painted or
what?
--

Opus the Penguin (Who really isn't obsessed with whether things are
"official." Honest.)

JoAnne Schmitz

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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On Wed, 17 May 2000 18:50:50 GMT, hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) wrote:

>In article <20000517143919...@ng-md1.aol.com>,
>Trystero4 <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote:
>><< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
>>My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
>>
>>

>>Loewen's entire point is that the U.S. version of history is
>>distorted and white-washed. Loewen points out that American
>>History Textbooks ignore the negative things that the "white-man"
>>have done.
>

>Well, duh. History is written by the winner. What else is new?

From the title of the book, I'd presume that the point of the book is to inform
previously gullible but now slightly wisening-up young people about the errors
they've been exposed to. Good stuff for the 17-to-25 crowd.

The fact that "history is written by the winner" is not new, but (a) people are
born every minute, most not having that knowledge, and (2) the particular
rewrites are ongoing and worth comment.

Some rewrites may be old hat to you; the specific ones he mentions might be
familiar because someone you know or a friend or teacher thereof read the book
and felt it was worth discussing in class or with friends or doing more research
on.

I'm reminded of the "secret" of the Japanese incendiary balloons of WWII. If I
hear one more time that no one knows about them I don't know if I'll laugh or
cry.

JoAnne "secret Dakini oracle" Schmitz

Dr H

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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On 17 May 2000, Trystero4 wrote:

}In a post in another NG (history-what-if) someone made a claim that certain
}cities in Northern Michigan advertised themselves as "sundown towns". I wasn't
}exactley sure what the poster was refering to but I assumed it to mean that
}these towns did not allow african-americans in town (or out on the streets)
}after sundown. I have heard similar stories about other locales. A small town
}near my hometown has been rumored to have had a sign placed at the city limits
}advising "coloreds" not to be caught in town after dark. This sign was
}supposed to have been in place as late as the early 1960s. Yet I've never seen
}documentation to verify the rumor. Anyone have any info regarding "sundown
}towns" or warning signs to blacks? Is this a common UL?

I've heard these stories about various towns in Oregon, including Eugene.
The usual line is that these towns had a sundown curfew for blacks, with
violation punishable by arrest and a fine. I haven't actually gone looking
for hard verification of these tales, nor of the possibly apocryphal
story that at least one of the Oregon governors in the late 20s - early 30s
was also active in local KKK activities.

Dr H


Dr H

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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On Wed, 17 May 2000, Gerald Belton wrote:

}On Wed, 17 May 2000 09:13:03 -0500, "K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com>
}wrote:
}
}>Do you have any other objective, verifiable evidence? You know, pictures,
}>that sort of thing. Human memory (everyone's) and eye-witness testimony are
}>notoriously faulty at times....
}
}K.D. can be such a meanyhead. Here she is asking for a cite when
}someone has posted a personal anecdote. Oh, the irony.

<sigh> damned if you do; damned if you don't, K.D.

afu: inconsistency 'R' us...

Dr H


David Hatunen

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <8fv22...@news2.newsguy.com>,

Opus the Penguin <opusthe...@micronet.net> wrote:
>David Hatunen wrote:
>>When I was young and growing up in Warren Ohio our neighboring town
>>of Niles had such a "Nigger don't let the sun set on you" sign at
>>the city limits.
>
>What did it look like? Was it an official sign or crudely hand-painted or
>what?

It was a bit worn even then, and I assume it was quasi-official,
perhaps even left over from the Klan days in the midwest, which
would have been the 1920s; since I'm talking early 1950s the sign
wouldn't have been all that old.

It was obviously made by a real sign painter in any case.

Dr H

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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On 17 May 2000, Bruce Tindall wrote:

}David Hatunen <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
}>When I was young and growing up in Warren Ohio our neighboring town
}>of Niles had such a "Nigger don't let the sun set on you" sign at
}>the city limits.
}

}This gives me the opportunity to ask a partially off-topic question:
}
}There was a science-fiction novel published some time before 1972,
}probably considerably before then, set in the Great Plains of the
}U.S. in a world where people with paranormal abilities -- mind-
}readers -- were a persecuted minority, disparagingly referred to
}as "parries", and many small towns had signs reading "Parry, don't
}let the sun set on you here." Does anyone know the title or author
}of this book?
}
}ObUrbanFolkloreRelevance: at the time the book was written, either
}the existence or the legend of the existence of "sundown towns" was
}well-known enough to enable the author to use this device in his
}book and to assume that the reader would know what he was referring to.

Ack! This is going to drive me crazy because I'm pretty sure I
read that story, but I can't remember title or author. I have a
suspicion that it might have been something by Heinlein, but it
could as easily been someone writing around the same time in a
similar style. Could take days to dig it up among the paperbacks...

Dr H


Dr H

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
to

On 17 May 2000, Trystero4 wrote:

}<< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
}My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
}
}Loewen's entire point is that the U.S. version of history is distorted and
}white-washed. Loewen points out that American History Textbooks ignore the
}negative things that the "white-man" have done.

True enough, but hardly news. Try to find any reference to the
Haymarket riot in any textbook below the college level. Or a
mention of Sacco and Vanzetti as anything other than a footnote,
for that matter.

Dr H


Paul Linden

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
to
Dr H wrote:

More a case of "damned if you don't; damned if you don't," unless I missed where
K. D. gave a cite.

Paul


Drew Lawson

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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In article <dr26iso9er7n2ah6o...@4ax.com>
jsch...@qis.net writes:

[re: Lies My Teacher Told Me]

>From the title of the book, I'd presume that the point of the book is to inform
>previously gullible but now slightly wisening-up young people about the errors
>they've been exposed to. Good stuff for the 17-to-25 crowd.

It's been a couple years since I read it, but it is a little bit
that and a little bit a call for action. Without coming off as a
konspiracy l00n, he puts in a bit of a "we should change how we
teach history" spin.

Personally, I think it would go well in an introductory teacher
certification course to "raise consiousness" of what types of things
educators face.


Drew "you mean Anastasia *didn't* have talking animals?" Lawson

Nathan Tenny

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
to
In article <Pine.GSU.4.05.100051...@garcia.efn.org>,

Dr H <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote:
> Try to find any reference to the
> Haymarket riot in any textbook below the college level.

Really? I got the Haymarket riot in high-school US history (I don't
remember what the textbook was) and had just assumed it was standard fare.
Including it seems like the path of least resistance if one's going to pay
any mind to the labor movement of that time a-tall---but perhaps typical
classes blow off the whole subject?

Trystero4

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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>>True enough, but hardly news. Try to find any reference to the
Haymarket riot in any textbook below the college level. Or a
mention of Sacco and Vanzetti as anything other than a footnote,
for that matter.
Dr H<<<

I taught one quarter of 11th grade US history...and we did cover the Sacco
Vanzetti case as an example of the "return to normalcy" paranoia. And I do
recall reading about the Haymarket riot as a high school student. Not sure if
it was in a textbook though...


Trystero4

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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hat...@bol.sonic.net wrote:
>>As someone who was around for segregation and generalized
discrimination I am fascinated by the apparent reluctance of some
posters to accept that the phenomenon existed. On the one hand I am
saddened in sort of Santayanish way, and on the other hand
gladdened that so many now consider it unthinkable.<<

I accept that the phenomemon of racial discrimination existed and still does.
And I'm sure that somewhere there were towns that had "no
coloreds/niggers/blacks/etc" signs posted. Yet it seems that there is a lot
more anecdotal evidence out there than concrete documentation. In my original
post I refered to a town nearby that was rumored to have had such a sign (Taft,
California). I've heard that rumor for at least 20 years but I have never seen
any steadfast evidence to support it. Does that mean that these signs did not
exist anywhere? By no means. I am well aware of "Jim Crow" laws, lynchings,
racially restricted communities , and the like. And I am sickend by all of it.
Defacto segregation is still in effect in many many areas of America. Racism
is a vile thing. My doubting the proliferation of "sundown towns" should not
imply that I cannot accept the idea that racial discrimination was a widespread
phenomenon. I was simply pointing out that since there are so many claims out
there concerning "sundown towns" without factual documentation some of them
must be ULs or at least exaggerations.

Don Middendorf

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
to
Trystero4 wrote:
>
> In a post in another NG (history-what-if) someone made a claim that certain
> cities in Northern Michigan advertised themselves as "sundown towns". I wasn't
> exactley sure what the poster was refering to but I assumed it to mean that
> these towns did not allow african-americans in town (or out on the streets)
> after sundown. I have heard similar stories about other locales. A small town
> near my hometown has been rumored to have had a sign placed at the city limits
> advising "coloreds" not to be caught in town after dark. This sign was
> supposed to have been in place as late as the early 1960s. Yet I've never seen
> documentation to verify the rumor. Anyone have any info regarding "sundown
> towns" or warning signs to blacks? Is this a common UL?

I'm not at all sure it's status is entirely legendary. I can remember
this being said of a great many smallish (20,000 or less all white[2])
towns in central Indiana (and southeastern IN) the attitude, if not the
sign was surely present into (yesterday? definitely into the 80s) and
people have many times told me about such signs, the alarming thing to
me anyway, is that these stories were often related by people who seemed
*proud* that their town had, until recently had one of these signs. I
have similar signs on private property into the 80s. [1]


1: These had no direct threat of lynching, but they were of the "black
man don't let the sun go down on you in this town", or "no blacks"
variety.

2: There are lots of these, for assorted values of 100% white. [3]

3: A legendary tale around these parts is that the all white makeup of
these communities is one of the things that has attracted so much
Japanese industry to these parts. (the implication that the Japanese are
extremely racist towards non-white Americans.)

Medieval Knievel

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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"Drew Lawson" <dr...@furrfu.com> wrote in message

> So, I can see how "sundown towns" could be covered up by history,
> but I can also see how a dozen *real* towns could become hundreds
> of legendary towns.

In Southwestern Oklahoma, there are several small towns (Marlow, Snyder)
where it's a "known fact" that they were sundown towns, although no one
seems to be able to verify this conclusively. However, in many of these
places, there are businesses to this day with names like "Karl's Kountry
Kitchen" or "Kathy's Kut and Kurl." I've seem them, but I am not sure what
the connotations are, aside from the obvious acronym. It's also a "known
fact" that the Confederate flag is displayed in business windows in this
area of the country to give the message that the business of non-whites is
not wanted. FWIW.

K. D.

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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"Opus the Penguin" <opusthe...@micronet.net> wrote in message
news:8fv22...@news2.newsguy.com...


> K. D. wrote:
> >He had one of those lawn globes, too, and I didn't attach any
> >particular meaning to that, either!
>
> What's a lawn globe? Does it have a "particular meaning"?

A lawn globe -- a shiny, globe-shaped thing, probably about 18 inches in
diameter, resting on a concrete or plastic pedastle -- people put them on
their lawns or in their landscaping as "accessories." (?)

They were big in the 50's and early 60's, then kind of faded away, only to
be making a come-back of late (so I'm told).

No meaning that I ever knew of, racist or otherwise.

-KD


K. D.

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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"Dr H" <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote in message

> <sigh> damned if you do; damned if you don't, K.D.
>
> afu: inconsistency 'R' us...

Yeah, that be right, Dr H.

-KD


K. D.

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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"Dr H" <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote in message

news:Pine.GSU.4.05.100051...@garcia.efn.org...


>
> On 17 May 2000, Trystero4 wrote:
>
> }<< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
> }My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
> }
> }Loewen's entire point is that the U.S. version of history is distorted
and
> }white-washed. Loewen points out that American History Textbooks ignore
the
> }negative things that the "white-man" have done.

Piggybacking here.

I don't know about that -- I considered the book I read in American History
about the Scottsboro boys in Alabama (tried and convicted on a trumped-up
rape charge of a white woman) to be pretty clearly negative against white
folk....

-KD

Medieval Knievel

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May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
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"K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> I don't know about that -- I considered the book I read in American
History
> about the Scottsboro boys in Alabama (tried and convicted on a trumped-up
> rape charge of a white woman) to be pretty clearly negative against white
> folk....

But the Scottsboro example is so obvious, and the history books I had as a
kid seemed to completely ignore the brutality of slavery and American
racism, making it seem as though slavery was not all that bad.


--
***********************************************
Medieval Knievel
ICQ #26667824
Remove the FOILHAT to reply by e-mail
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sig file is purposefully annoying. do not eat, do not get in eyes.
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Dan Drake

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May 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/18/00
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On Wed, 17 May 2000 21:26:40, JoAnne Schmitz <jsch...@qis.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 17 May 2000 18:50:50 GMT, hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) wrote:
>
> >In article <20000517143919...@ng-md1.aol.com>,

> >Trystero4 <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote:
> >><< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
> >>My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
> >>
> >>

> >>...


>
> From the title of the book, I'd presume that the point of the book is to inform
> previously gullible but now slightly wisening-up young people about the errors
> they've been exposed to. Good stuff for the 17-to-25 crowd.

Not just them. Even adult USAian readers of this group would be likely to
find new stuff in it. Not that you necessarily _need_ it, since you
already know how much of our officially taught history is bunk; but
perhaps people can think they know how bad it is, and be mistaken.

I know that at least one high school teacher is using it in her courses,
because she's my cousin, but I doubt whether she has much company.

--
Dan Drake
d...@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/index.html

Dan Drake

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May 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/18/00
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On Wed, 17 May 2000 20:23:12, dr...@furrfu.com (Drew Lawson) wrote:

> In article <8fus4d$a...@qualcomm.com>


> nten...@qualcomm.com writes:
> >In article <20000517143919...@ng-md1.aol.com>,
> >Trystero4 <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote:
> >><< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
> >>My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
>
> >...
>

> It's really a pretty good book, though unfortunately the author
> falls victim to the biases that he derides in the establishment.
> I forget the issues, but recall that he delivered a couple "facts"
> that I'd seen well debunked.

I recall that he accepts some large numbers for the pre-Columbian
population of North America, which definitely appear wrong on the best
available evidence. It's a popular failing; the millions of
pre-agricultural people who supposedly lived in California before the evil
missionaries came and killed them off must have had remarkable ways of
supporting themselves on 150,000 square miles, of which a large part is
mountain and desert; in other places the anthro folklore suggests 1 per
square mile if the land is good.

Nonetheless, a very good book.

Arthur Wohlwill

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May 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/18/00
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In article <8fvos2$2vqm$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com> "K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> writes:
>From: "K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Sundown Towns?
>Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:25:53 -0500

Lawn Globes AKA Lawn Balls AKA Gazing Balls(?) apparently lack the proper
documentation to cross US borders--at least most of my foreign (including
Canadian) friends seem to unaware of their existence. Web searches for lawn
balls (I did this just the other day) pull up many garden supply places which
refer to them as gazing balls. They seem to come in many diameters and colors.
They may ward off evil.

Arthur Wohlwill adwo...@UIC.EDU

McCaffertA

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May 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/18/00
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In article <eSBU4.27$%c6....@typhoon.sonic.net>, hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David
Hatunen) writes:

>Well, duh. History is written by the winner. What else is new?

Nahh. We gotta go through this again?


"Leaving aside the political landmine here, lemme say that "History is
written by those who win wars" is, barring genocidal anihilation of the losing
side, a complete, utter, crock. Winners have little emotional need to refight
battles already won in life, but the losers will play "what if" unto thrice the
third generation. Southerners keep TWBTS alive; and when was the last time you
saw a book on the "45 from the Hannoverian viewpoint?"

Mr. Boswell, I believe it's your turn now.

RM Mentock

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May 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/18/00
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Dr H wrote:

> I've heard these stories about various towns in Oregon, including Eugene.
> The usual line is that these towns had a sundown curfew for blacks, with
> violation punishable by arrest and a fine. I haven't actually gone looking
> for hard verification of these tales, nor of the possibly apocryphal
> story that at least one of the Oregon governors in the late 20s - early 30s
> was also active in local KKK activities.

Colorado politics was heavily influenced by the KKK.
Stapleton Airport was named after a mayor of Denver
who was a member of the Klan. "As the Denver Post
wrote, '..beyond any doubt the KKK is the largest
and most cohesive, most efficiently organized political
force in the state…'"[1] The governor was KKK, also.

--
RM Mentock

[1] http://www.archives.state.co.us/govs/morley.html

Ignorance? What's that?
http://sentient.home.mindspring.com/dan/

K. D.

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May 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/18/00
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"Arthur Wohlwill" <