backup hard drive
Verlon Herndon
recently had a CD burner installed in my PC tower. It seems that backing up
my files would be a simple matter of clicking-and-dragging each file to
FileCD, then burn. How can I determine which files are the ones I created
and which are the ones which will be supplied by QuickRestore? I have both
QuickRestore and Supplemental QuickRestore-do I use one or both. If I
successfully backup my files how do I install them? Do I simply plug in the
CD and the computer does the rest?
Heinz W. Wiggeshoff
format c: /s
Howard S Shubs
"Verlon Herndon" <ver...@ruralnetwork.net> wrote:
> I am a new computer user. I have a Compaq Presario 5690, using Windows 98.
Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give you useful
answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
--
"Run in circles, scream and shout!"
I hope you have good backups!
Are there any more networked SJFs around?
Heinz W. Wiggeshoff
> In article <VpzG8.1$LHE6....@news2.randori.com>,
> "Verlon Herndon" <ver...@ruralnetwork.net> wrote:
>
>> I am a new computer user. I have a Compaq Presario 5690, using Windows 98.
>
> Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give you useful
> answers.
I take umbrage! My followup was pretty damn useful. Imagine a world
without GatesCo.
B-)
Howard S Shubs
ab...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) wrote:
> I take umbrage! My followup was pretty damn useful. Imagine a world
> without GatesCo.
>
> B-)
Yeah, I'd like to also. <sigh>
Tim Shoppa
>
> I am a new computer user. I have a Compaq Presario 5690, using Windows 98. I
> recently had a CD burner installed in my PC tower. It seems that backing up
> my files would be a simple matter of clicking-and-dragging each file to
> FileCD, then burn.
Oh, no, that's not reliable at all. 1600 BPI 9-track is the
only technology that you can trust.
Tim.
William Robison
Well, if you're really looking for longevity
you will need to consider 7 track 556 bpi. These
usually run slow enough that you can correct for
tape stretching and wrinkles with a q-tip near
the read head. (We even had "dynamic skew compensation"
on the VI-C drives,... his name was "Vic")
:-)
-Willy
Eric Sosman
"Oooooh, we used to DREAM about 1600 bpi! Woulda been
Heaven to us. We used 556 bpi 7-track, and we got woken up
every morning by having a load of rotting paper tape chad
dumped all over us. 1600 bpi!? Hmph."
Charlie Gibbs
william...@lost-universities.org (William Robison) writes:
>Tim Shoppa wrote:
>
>> Verlon Herndon wrote:
>>
>>> I am a new computer user. I have a Compaq Presario 5690, using
>>> Windows 98. I recently had a CD burner installed in my PC tower.
>>> It seems that backing up my files would be a simple matter of
>>> clicking-and-dragging each file to FileCD, then burn.
>>
>> Oh, no, that's not reliable at all. 1600 BPI 9-track is the
>> only technology that you can trust.
>
> Well, if you're really looking for longevity
>you will need to consider 7 track 556 bpi. These
>usually run slow enough that you can correct for
>tape stretching and wrinkles with a q-tip near
>the read head. (We even had "dynamic skew compensation"
>on the VI-C drives,... his name was "Vic")
I was involved in converting many of the Univac 9300 and 9400
shops in Vancouver to 90/30s. The original VI-Cs got replaced by
Uniservo 10s, which were _much_ gentler on the tapes. And that
was the problem. Most shops had to throw out all their old tapes,
because the edges were becoming scalloped. They never noticed
before the conversion, though, because the VI-C would put so much
tension on the tapes that they'd be stretched flat as they passed
over the heads.
You knew it was time to replace a tape in a VI-C shop when you
had to bundle up a Kimwipe and press it against the head to get
the tape to read successfully.
I still have a pair of VI-Cs in the basement.
--
cgi...@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.
I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply,
appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it.
Charles Shannon Hendrix
> In article <VpzG8.1$LHE6....@news2.randori.com>,
> "Verlon Herndon" <ver...@ruralnetwork.net> wrote:
>
>> I am a new computer user. I have a Compaq Presario 5690, using Windows 98.
>
> Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give you useful
> answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
Give him a break. His operating system includes design flaws and errors
that were solved more than 20 years ago... :)
jchausler
Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> I was involved in converting many of the Univac 9300 and 9400
> shops in Vancouver to 90/30s. The original VI-Cs got replaced by
> Uniservo 10s, which were _much_ gentler on the tapes. And that
> was the problem. Most shops had to throw out all their old tapes,
> because the edges were becoming scalloped. They never noticed
> before the conversion, though, because the VI-C would put so much
> tension on the tapes that they'd be stretched flat as they passed
> over the heads.
>
> You knew it was time to replace a tape in a VI-C shop when you
> had to bundle up a Kimwipe and press it against the head to get
> the tape to read successfully.
>
> I still have a pair of VI-Cs in the basement.
Were these the full height cabinet one reel over the other
drives? Is the C a version? I recall a Uniservo VI in the
late 60's we had attached to a 1004 to drive it as an off
line lister and it also would drive a calcomp plotter connected
to the 1004. This was adjacent to an 1108 with four
Uniservo VIII's.
Chris
AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE
$$
Richard E. Hawkins
I *do* get a kick out of microsoft's attacks on unix as "30 year old
technology"--given that windows sufferes from problems (multitasking)
that were solved prior to unix . . .
hawk
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
doc...@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \
William Robison
Of course, the real trick was knowing if it was time to
replace the head... They'd last about a year (regardless of
the drive) around here. The DEC FS rep was somewhat astounded
when we had to replace the head on the TU78 a year after it
arrived (after spinning 2 or 3 shifts almost continuously)...
Most of the stuff that ran on the 418-III was setup to give
the operator time to grab a Q-tip and get to the drive before
all the retries were used up...
And then, don't forget the bad 7-track drive out at Goddard;
had the skew mis-adjusted. We had one of the VI-C's with a
read head shimmed to match for a couple of months 'till it got
fixed.
(Scarry memories, these ones)
:-)
-Willy
Roland Hutchinson
I'd phrase this as "flaws and errors that were DESIGNED IN over twenty
years ago." Buried deep in the belly of Windows 98 (though not deep
enough) is MS-DOS, which is just a bit over twenty years old now.
That still doesn't make it a fit subject for discussion in this newsgroup
(or anywhere else).
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to rolands....@usa.net is heavily filtered to remove
spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Louis Krupp
> Well, if you're really looking for longevity
> you will need to consider 7 track 556 bpi.
At 200 BPI, it's easier to read the visimag (or
whatever it was called when the fluid was poured
on the tape and the magnetized bits became visible
to the naked eye).
Louis Krupp
Charlie Gibbs
(jchausler) writes:
>Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> I still have a pair of VI-Cs in the basement.
>
>Were these the full height cabinet one reel over the other
>drives?
Yes.
>Is the C a version?
I think so, although I never saw anything else.
>I recall a Uniservo VI in the late 60's we had attached to a 1004
>to drive it as an off line lister and it also would drive a calcomp
>plotter connected to the 1004. This was adjacent to an 1108 with
>four Uniservo VIII's.
I always heard them referred to as the VI-C (for the rest of you out
there, VI is pronounced "six"). However, all of my experience with
them was on 9000 series equipment. I never saw a 1004 with magnetic
tape, but let me run downstairs and dig out my 1004 manuals...
OK, any references I have to tape on a 1004 simply call the drives
"Uniservo C", with no number (Roman or otherwise). The drives look
similar to a VI-C, but there are a few differences; maybe they were
just an earlier model. The vacuum columns on the drives pictured
in the manuals are vertical, instead of angled as on the VI-Cs I'm
familiar with. Also, they sense the amount of tape in the columns
with photocells rather than vacuum switches. The tape speed is the
same, though (42.7 ips - does anyone know how they arrived at that
number?). The control panel across the top of the drives is also
different; instead of the row of illuminated pushbuttons and
indicators (plus a 3-position rotary switch selecting 200/556/800
bpi density, which isn't used on 9-track models), there are the
following:
- an illuminated power pushbutton
- a rotary switch marked NORMAL SPEED with three positions:
REV, STOP, and FWD, to move the tape forward or backward
- a rotary switch marked HIGH SPEED, similar to the NORMAL
SPEED switch but which will rewind the tape or do a
"fast forward" function
- a rotary switch marked MODE with three positions:
- LOAD (shuts down the motors to allow loading tape)
- MANUAL (drive is offline, NORMAL SPEED and HIGH SPEED
switches can be used)
- AUTO - switches the drive online
- a momentary rotary switch which can be turned right to
LOAD POINT to advance a newly-loaded tape to load point,
or turned left to UNLOAD to unload a rewound tape.
- three indicators labeled SELECT (online), BOT (tape is
at load point), and FILE PROTECT (which is backwards;
it lights when a write enable ring is in place)
- a DENSITY switch allowing 200/556/800 bpi to be selected.
Again, I've never seen one of those beasties in real life.
Nor did I ever see Uniservo VIIIs - I had very little contact
with the 1100 world. I did once see some 12s, which were made
from VI-Cs by replacing the capstan clutches and electronics
(and changing the model number to Arabic) so they could run at
1600 bpi.
Alan T. Bowler
> At 200 BPI, it's easier to read the visimag (or
> whatever it was called when the fluid was poured
> on the tape and the magnetized bits became visible
> to the naked eye).
Shops I was in called it "tape developer". I only ever
heard it discussed. FE's had stopped using the stuff.
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Roland Hutchinson <rolands....@usa.net> wrote:
RH> I'd phrase this as "flaws and errors that were DESIGNED IN over twenty
RH> years ago." Buried deep in the belly of Windows 98 (though not deep
RH> enough) is MS-DOS, which is just a bit over twenty years old now.
There are things buried deep in my belly too but ...
RH> That still doesn't make it a fit subject for discussion in this newsgroup
RH> (or anywhere else).
as you said.
--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors
The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see:
| http://www.sohara.org/
Howard S Shubs
Charles Shannon Hendrix <sha...@news.widomaker.com> wrote:
> Give him a break.
I realize you're joking, but to respond to you: the fact that I said
anything at all to him was "giving him a break". <O.o>
jmfb...@aol.com
Roland Hutchinson <rolands....@usa.net> wrote:
>Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote:
>
>> In article <howard-8E740E....@enews.newsguy.com>, Howard S
>> Shubs wrote:
>>> In article <VpzG8.1$LHE6....@news2.randori.com>,
>>> "Verlon Herndon" <ver...@ruralnetwork.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am a new computer user. I have a Compaq Presario 5690, using Windows
>>>> 98.
>>>
>>> Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give you
useful
>>> answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
>>
>> Give him a break. His operating system includes design flaws and errors
>> that were solved more than 20 years ago... :)
>
>I'd phrase this as "flaws and errors that were DESIGNED IN over twenty
>years ago." Buried deep in the belly of Windows 98 (though not deep
>enough) is MS-DOS, which is just a bit over twenty years old now.
>
>That still doesn't make it a fit subject for discussion in this newsgroup
>(or anywhere else).
>
It may not fit but...I've just come from visiting my folks. I am
appalled at what is getting (or not getting taught) to the kiddies.
If we begin to teach them here (not in detail but pointers to
better implementations), we may not have a computer implosion.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
jmfb...@aol.com
Chris Hedley
> I *do* get a kick out of microsoft's attacks on unix as "30 year old
> technology"--given that windows sufferes from problems (multitasking)
> that were solved prior to unix . . .
I saw those comments and remember thinking that they might be more
respected if they'd bothered to learn about that 30-year old technology
rather than deriding it for being "old fashioned"...
Chris.
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Charles Shannon Hendrix <sha...@news.widomaker.com> wrote:
CSH> In article <howard-8E740E....@enews.newsguy.com>, Howard S Shubs wrote:
CSH> > In article <VpzG8.1$LHE6....@news2.randori.com>,
CSH> > "Verlon Herndon" <ver...@ruralnetwork.net> wrote:
CSH> >
CSH> >> I am a new computer user. I have a Compaq Presario 5690, using Windows 98.
CSH> >
CSH> > Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give you useful
CSH> > answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
CSH>
CSH> Give him a break.
Oh boy -= first we'll have to teach him how to set up a serial
console.
Tom Gough
You need to install an OS. I assume you have an i386. Linux is a good
bet for you. Go get SuSE, RTFM and install. Backups can be made to
happen automagically (use cron, dump, mkosofs and cdrecord). Dead easy
--
http://www.guild.bham.ac.uk/chess-club
Tom Gough
to know
Tom Gough
So what's the deal with these new-fangled 9-tracks?
--
http://www.guild.bham.ac.uk/chess-club
Heinz W. Wiggeshoff
You mean the 6250 bpi models introduced scant years ago?
Worked like a charm. Wish I had one at home.
jmfb...@aol.com
Tom Gough <gou...@email.com> wrote:
>In article <aclc4v$88j$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>Your newsreader seems to be munging quoted lines. Thought you'd like
>to know
>
Nope. It's not munging. There are just some posts where I'm too
lazy to reformat lines of posters who still think that a .RM 80
is proper for posting.
John Everett
But only if you shaked thoroughly before dipping the tape.
(Note: I was taught to make a "U" shaped loop, holding an end of the
loop in each hand. The tape was then dipped into the can and passed
through the Magna-See by moving the hands up and down in opposition.
To pour was to waste.)
jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3
Rupert Pigott
news:acn03m$r2b$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
Had a TU-78 hooked up to a milking parlour main. Anything
less hefty probably wouldn't have taken it (240VAC, UK).
Have you seen the size of the transformers in the bottom
of those things ? Perhaps they're not really there for
their electrical characteristics, probably there for
ballast...
Cheers,
Rupert
Heinz W. Wiggeshoff
>
> Have you seen the size of the transformers in the bottom
> of those things ? Perhaps they're not really there for
> their electrical characteristics, probably there for
> ballast...
[Tries to recall Newton's laws from 35 years ago...]
You're on to something there. Heft a 2400' reel of 9 track and
imagine the forces generated as it goes from rest to top speed
back to rest. One wouldn't want the tape drive units walking the
floor. And the same observation applies to disk drives up to
an IBM 3350 - massive frames and power supplies. Ditto the 1403
printer - some cars are lighter. And my Trendata 4000 daisy wheel
terminal took three men to move - the table is made out of inch and
a half particle board, (and that ain't balsa!). So where there's
motion there's mass [TM].
Brian Inglis
Wiggeshoff) wrote:
>"Rupert Pigott" (dark.try-eati...@btinternet.com) writes:
>>
>> Have you seen the size of the transformers in the bottom
>> of those things ? Perhaps they're not really there for
>> their electrical characteristics, probably there for
>> ballast...
>
> [Tries to recall Newton's laws from 35 years ago...]
>
> You're on to something there. Heft a 2400' reel of 9 track and
> imagine the forces generated as it goes from rest to top speed
> back to rest. One wouldn't want the tape drive units walking the
> floor. And the same observation applies to disk drives up to
> an IBM 3350 - massive frames and power supplies.
What about the full size mainframe cabinet of an IBM 3380 --
doesn't qualify?
--
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Brian....@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
fake address use address above to reply
tos...@aol.com ab...@aol.com ab...@yahoo.com ab...@hotmail.com ab...@msn.com ab...@sprint.com ab...@earthlink.com ab...@cadvision.com ab...@ibsystems.com u...@ftc.gov
spam traps
Heinz W. Wiggeshoff
>
> What about the full size mainframe cabinet of an IBM 3380 --
> doesn't qualify?
Never met one. Haven't been in a machine room with big iron
since '93.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> Never met one. Haven't been in a machine room with big iron
> since '93.
dates from article on thin-film heads:
http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/journal/rd/403/chiu.html
ga (general availability) for
3380 was 1981 ... 630mbytes
3380E was 1985 double density 1260mbytes
3380K was 1987 triple density 1890mbytes
also see:
http://web.utk.edu/~mnewman/ibmguide13.html
3380 hda description:
http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/2001-03/1089.html
http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1998-07/0872.html
also see 360/370 timeline at (processor, software, disk, etc dates)
http://www.isham-research.com/chrono.html
another early timeline
http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/acs_timeline.html
misc. other info from
http://www.cmg.org/conference/refs2001/papers/01p6001.pdf
from above paper
Table 1: IBM Physical Disk Geometry and Performance [6]
Average Average Volume
Device Type Seek Latency Capacity
msec msec MB
2314 60 12.50 29.2
3330-1 30 8.33 100.0
3330-11 30 8.33 200.0
3350 25 8.33 317.5
3380A 16 8.33 630.2
3380D 15 8.33 630.2
3380E 17 8.33 1260.4
3380J 12 8.33 630.2
3380K 16 8.3 1890.6
3390-1 9.5 7.10 946.0
3390-2 12.5 7.10 1892.1
3390-3 15 7.10 2838.1
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | ly...@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Charles Shannon Hendrix
> On Thu, 23 May 2002 02:24:57 -0400
> Charles Shannon Hendrix <sha...@news.widomaker.com> wrote:
>
> CSH> In article <howard-8E740E....@enews.newsguy.com>, Howard S Shubs wrote:
> CSH> > In article <VpzG8.1$LHE6....@news2.randori.com>,
> CSH> > "Verlon Herndon" <ver...@ruralnetwork.net> wrote:
> CSH> >
> CSH> >> I am a new computer user. I have a Compaq Presario 5690, using Windows 98.
> CSH> >
> CSH> > Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give you useful
> CSH> > answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
> CSH>
> CSH> Give him a break.
>
> Oh boy -= first we'll have to teach him how to set up a serial
> console.
Hey! You trimmed my line and changed the meaning!
Bad poster, bad!
Gene Wirchenko
>In article <VpzG8.1$LHE6....@news2.randori.com>,
> "Verlon Herndon" <ver...@ruralnetwork.net> wrote:
>
>> I am a new computer user. I have a Compaq Presario 5690, using Windows 98.
>
>Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give you useful
>answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
When did the *ten* years become twenty?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
Brian Inglis
Wiggeshoff) wrote:
Haven't been near one since '92 myself, but 3380s were around a
decade before that -- ISTR they were 600MB/drive (3380A), two
drives/box, double that for 3380D?, and triple for 3380K.
IIRC to keep the seek time the same with increased capacity more
heads were added on each arm to keep the cylinder count per head
the same. The drive would use different heads depending on the
cylinder accessed.
Dave Daniels
Rupert Pigott <dark.try-eati...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Have you seen the size of the transformers in the bottom
> of those things ? Perhaps they're not really there for
> their electrical characteristics, probably there for
> ballast...
And have you seen one of them when they've been examined by the UK
safety approvals board (er, BABT? -I cannot remember) when it
looks as though they have taken a chain saw to it to open it?
Dave Daniels
Dave Daniels
Heinz W. Wiggeshoff <ab...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> You're on to something there. Heft a 2400' reel of 9 track and
> imagine the forces generated as it goes from rest to top speed
> back to rest. One wouldn't want the tape drive units walking the
> floor. And the same observation applies to disk drives up to
> an IBM 3350 - massive frames and power supplies. Ditto the 1403
Have you ever admired the heat haze rising over a 3350 disk farm?
If they use TTL logic then they could require a massive supply,
for example, 200 amps at five volts. I don't think it is just to
help anchor the kit to the floor. (Although in our case, the
equipment was so heavy and the floor so weak that the tiles
were bowing significantly under the weight. I didn't like walking
around some parts of our machine room then for fear of a tile
collapsing and being squashed by a 3380 or something.)
Dave Daniels
CBFalconer
> >
> > Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give
> > you useful answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
>
> When did the *ten* years become twenty?
My 486/80 with a bios date of '94 is getting awfully close under
that rule :-) With its memory maxed at 64 Meg it gets nothing
further, apart from peripherals that will move to newer machinery
without pain, such as 40G of HD, external modem, Laser printer,
UPS, 17" monitor (just added, cost about 80 US$). Meanwhile it
doesn't need CPU fans and suchlike. And it will certainly never
grow any Micro$haft OS later than W98. My only real wish is that
the ancient CDR/SB16 be more reliable. It fails to recover from
errors, thus preventing loading a Linux system (so far).
When the disks spin down and the monitor and printer go on standby
I estimate total power consumption is in the 20 to 50 watt area.
--
Chuck F (cbfal...@yahoo.com) (cbfal...@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
Tim Shoppa
> My 486/80 with a bios date of '94 is getting awfully close under
> that rule :-) With its memory maxed at 64 Meg it gets nothing
> further, apart from peripherals that will move to newer machinery
> without pain, such as 40G of HD, external modem, Laser printer,
> UPS, 17" monitor (just added, cost about 80 US$). Meanwhile it
> doesn't need CPU fans and suchlike. And it will certainly never
> grow any Micro$haft OS later than W98. My only real wish is that
> the ancient CDR/SB16 be more reliable. It fails to recover from
> errors, thus preventing loading a Linux system (so far).
>
> When the disks spin down and the monitor and printer go on standby
> I estimate total power consumption is in the 20 to 50 watt area.
A more flagrant violation of the 10-year rule: the PDP-10 archives
are hosted here on a 2-year-old K6II-500 PC-clone. There is a fan for
the CPU, but measured power usage (including the 40G drive
spinning) is around 45VA at near-idle. Rapid head seeks on the drive
add another 10VA or so, and a high-CPU load (like Seti@Home) adds
another 10VA.
The machine hasn't had a keyboard, mouse, or video monitor on it in the
past year, so I don't have to count their power consumptions :-)
Tim.
Charlie Gibbs
writes:
>In article <slrnaetrqk...@loose-tannins.demon.co.uk>,
>Tom Gough <gou...@email.com> wrote:
>>In article <aclc4v$88j$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
><snip>
>
>>Your newsreader seems to be munging quoted lines. Thought you'd like
>>to know
>
>Nope. It's not munging. There are just some posts where I'm too
>lazy to reformat lines of posters who still think that a .RM 80
>is proper for posting.
The ones that bug me post lines with lengths in the 100-110 range.
I guess the proportional fonts they use will fit. Speaking of
proportional fonts, how about the people who try to draw ASCII
diagrams in a proportinal font, and hit the space bar a million
times to get across the screen? Looks like hell when viewed with
a monospaced font - but I suppose we fossils are supposed to get
with the program, aren't we?
--
cgi...@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.
I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply,
appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it.
at Arargh dot com @.invalid Arargh!
wrote:
<snip>
>The ones that bug me post lines with lengths in the 100-110 range.
>I guess the proportional fonts they use will fit. Speaking of
>proportional fonts, how about the people who try to draw ASCII
>diagrams in a proportinal font, and hit the space bar a million
>times to get across the screen? Looks like hell when viewed with
>a monospaced font - but I suppose we fossils are supposed to get
>with the program, aren't we?
And they never tell you which font at what size was used. :-)
--
Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com
To reply by email, correct the mangled reply address.
Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)
> And they never tell you which font at what size was used. :-)
I can't help feeling that some lusers remind me of the children of
Israel going off after false gods. However I got in trouble last time I
said that, mainly because I compared m$ to the prophets of baal.
Moral: Never post to usenet after drinking more than 1 bottle of
Chablis. The truth may leak out.
--
I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal
lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/
"It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman
is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21.
jmfb...@aol.com
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@sky.bus.com> wrote:
>In article <aco2e0$6k6$1...@bob.news.rcn.net> jmfb...@aol.com (jmfbahciv)
>writes:
>
>>In article <slrnaetrqk...@loose-tannins.demon.co.uk>,
>>Tom Gough <gou...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>>In article <aclc4v$88j$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>><snip>
>>
>>>Your newsreader seems to be munging quoted lines. Thought you'd like
>>>to know
>>
>>Nope. It's not munging. There are just some posts where I'm too
>>lazy to reformat lines of posters who still think that a .RM 80
>>is proper for posting.
>
>The ones that bug me post lines with lengths in the 100-110 range.
Yup. I exaggerated ;-).
>I guess the proportional fonts they use will fit.
That's not my guess; my guess is that they were never
taught touch typing with a typewriter where the <CRLF>
is a mandatory keystroke (or arm action). Their software
provides the <CRLF> for free. I always considered this a
bug.
> ... Speaking of
>proportional fonts, how about the people who try to draw ASCII
>diagrams in a proportinal font, and hit the space bar a million
>times to get across the screen?
That's a bug w.r.t. the definition of a space-width. I don't think
anybody's got that right nor will they ever since it depends on
the user's immediate usage.
> .. Looks like hell when viewed with
>a monospaced font - but I suppose we fossils are supposed to get
>with the program, aren't we?
The reason we're fossils is because we know better. After all,
we're the ones who survived all the cullings that took place
over the years. The reason we survived is because we did
manage to do something right.
Sorry. I'm still reacting based on my trip home. I got a
lot of flak because of my side trip to the Babbage Institute
(and I'm still getting some over the phone).
jmfb...@aol.com
Arargh! <Arargh at Arargh dot com @ .invalid> wrote:
>On 27 May 02 13:13:41 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@sky.bus.com>
>wrote:
>
><snip>
>>The ones that bug me post lines with lengths in the 100-110 range.
>>I guess the proportional fonts they use will fit. Speaking of
>>proportional fonts, how about the people who try to draw ASCII
>>diagrams in a proportinal font, and hit the space bar a million
>>times to get across the screen? Looks like hell when viewed with
>>a monospaced font - but I suppose we fossils are supposed to get
>>with the program, aren't we?
>And they never tell you which font at what size was used. :-)
That's why it's a bug.
Richard E. Hawkins
>> And they never tell you which font at what size was used. :-)
>I can't help feeling that some lusers remind me of the children of
>Israel going off after false gods. However I got in trouble last time I
>said that, mainly because I compared m$ to the prophets of baal.
Well, there's your problem: you used a simile, while a metaphor would
have been more appropriate . . .
:)
hawk, who always draws a pentium around a computer before booting
windows or otherwise trafficing in demons . . .
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
doc...@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \
Richard E. Hawkins
>>Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give you useful
>>answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
> When did the *ten* years become twenty?
They just don't make years like they did back in our day . . .
hawk
Richard E. Hawkins
>> Oh, no, that's not reliable at all. 1600 BPI 9-track is the
>> only technology that you can trust.
>So what's the deal with these new-fangled 9-tracks?
Automatic error correction and detection. 7 tracks merely allowed
parity . . .
:)
Howard S Shubs
ha...@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:
> In article <3cefed71...@news.ocis.net>,
> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote:
> >Howard S Shubs <how...@shubs.net> wrote:
>
> >>Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give you useful
> >>answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
>
> > When did the *ten* years become twenty?
>
> They just don't make years like they did back in our day . . .
Yeah, it's like tapes. They stretch.
--
"Run in circles, scream and shout!"
I hope you have good backups!
Are there any more networked SJFs around?
jmfb...@aol.com
>Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob) <uncl...@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>"Arargh!" wrote:
>
>>> And they never tell you which font at what size was used. :-)
>
>>I can't help feeling that some lusers remind me of the children of
>>Israel going off after false gods. However I got in trouble last time I
>>said that, mainly because I compared m$ to the prophets of baal.
>
>Well, there's your problem: you used a simile, while a metaphor would
>have been more appropriate . . .
>
>:)
>
>hawk, who always draws a pentium around a computer before booting
>windows or otherwise trafficing in demons . . .
But, surely, not daemons! I even wrote one of those.
Steve O'Hara-Smith
ha...@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:
REH> hawk, who always draws a pentium around a computer before booting
REH> windows or otherwise trafficing in demons . . .
I hope you have an up to date rune book - early copies contained
a nasty mistake in the layout that prevented a proper divide forming which
could leave you exposed to the demons. There was also the unpleasant
possibility of being caught by Foof left open in the original. Many suggest
use of the fourth level of pentium these days, but this can involve the
practioner in considerable expense (especially for the bussed rams) and
you must be careful never to invoke this design without first calling upon
the great Phan. The runes in Alternative Mystic Diagrams are less arduous
but also depend heavily on the influence of Phan as well as proper support
from a suitable bored Mother.
--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors
The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see:
| http://www.sohara.org/
Tom Gough
> Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> Howard S Shubs <how...@shubs.net> wrote:
>>
> ... snip ...
>> >
>> > Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give
>> > you useful answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
>>
>> When did the *ten* years become twenty?
>
> My 486/80 with a bios date of '94 is getting awfully close under
> that rule :-) With its memory maxed at 64 Meg it gets nothing
> further, apart from peripherals that will move to newer machinery
> without pain, such as 40G of HD, external modem, Laser printer,
> UPS, 17" monitor (just added, cost about 80 US$). Meanwhile it
> doesn't need CPU fans and suchlike. And it will certainly never
> grow any Micro$haft OS later than W98. My only real wish is that
> the ancient CDR/SB16 be more reliable. It fails to recover from
> errors, thus preventing loading a Linux system (so far).
>
> When the disks spin down and the monitor and printer go on standby
> I estimate total power consumption is in the 20 to 50 watt area.
>
Have you cosidered QNX or somesuch? Being a microkernel system, all the
drivers run in userspace so it shouldn't be too much of an issue
--
http://www.guild.bham.ac.uk/chess-club
Tom Gough
BABT is the one. Just look at the bottom of your phone!
--
http://www.guild.bham.ac.uk/chess-club
Tom Gough
> In article <slrnaetrtu...@loose-tannins.demon.co.uk>,
> Tom Gough <gou...@email.com> wrote:
>>In article <3CEBC962...@trailing-edge.com>, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>
>>> Oh, no, that's not reliable at all. 1600 BPI 9-track is the
>>> only technology that you can trust.
>
>>So what's the deal with these new-fangled 9-tracks?
>
> Automatic error correction and detection. 7 tracks merely allowed
> parity . . .
>
>:)
>
Doesn't that take all the fun away? ;-)
Tom Gough
> In article <1149.912T2...@sky.bus.com>,
> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@sky.bus.com> wrote:
>>In article <aco2e0$6k6$1...@bob.news.rcn.net> jmfb...@aol.com (jmfbahciv)
>>writes:
>>
>>>In article <slrnaetrqk...@loose-tannins.demon.co.uk>,
>>>Tom Gough <gou...@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>In article <aclc4v$88j$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>Your newsreader seems to be munging quoted lines. Thought you'd like
>>>>to know
>>>
>>>Nope. It's not munging. There are just some posts where I'm too
>>>lazy to reformat lines of posters who still think that a .RM 80
>>>is proper for posting.
>>
>>The ones that bug me post lines with lengths in the 100-110 range.
>
> Yup. I exaggerated ;-).
>
One way or another, slrn seems to fix most of these post for me when I
follow up (well slrn or vi). Shame it doesn't seem to want to do if
for reading!
>
>>I guess the proportional fonts they use will fit.
>
> That's not my guess; my guess is that they were never
> taught touch typing with a typewriter where the <CRLF>
> is a mandatory keystroke (or arm action). Their software
> provides the <CRLF> for free. I always considered this a
> bug.
>
Or not as the case often seems to be! It just looks like it has.
>> ... Speaking of
>>proportional fonts, how about the people who try to draw ASCII
>>diagrams in a proportinal font, and hit the space bar a million
>>times to get across the screen?
>
> That's a bug w.r.t. the definition of a space-width. I don't think
> anybody's got that right nor will they ever since it depends on
> the user's immediate usage.
>
>> .. Looks like hell when viewed with
>>a monospaced font - but I suppose we fossils are supposed to get
>>with the program, aren't we?
>
> The reason we're fossils is because we know better. After all,
> we're the ones who survived all the cullings that took place
> over the years. The reason we survived is because we did
> manage to do something right.
>
> Sorry. I'm still reacting based on my trip home. I got a
> lot of flak because of my side trip to the Babbage Institute
> (and I'm still getting some over the phone).
>
> /BAH
>
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
Rupert Pigott
news:slrnafnrfq...@loose-tannins.demon.co.uk...
> In article <3CF0E313...@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote:
> > Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> >> Howard S Shubs <how...@shubs.net> wrote:
> >>
> > ... snip ...
> >> >
> >> > Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give
> >> > you useful answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
> >>
> >> When did the *ten* years become twenty?
> >
> > My 486/80 with a bios date of '94 is getting awfully close under
> > that rule :-) With its memory maxed at 64 Meg it gets nothing
> > further, apart from peripherals that will move to newer machinery
> > without pain, such as 40G of HD, external modem, Laser printer,
> > UPS, 17" monitor (just added, cost about 80 US$). Meanwhile it
> > doesn't need CPU fans and suchlike. And it will certainly never
> > grow any Micro$haft OS later than W98. My only real wish is that
> > the ancient CDR/SB16 be more reliable. It fails to recover from
> > errors, thus preventing loading a Linux system (so far).
If you can lay your hands on an old NE2000 type ISA
NIC you should be able to install the sucker off a
floppy. Well, you can do that with OpenBSD anyways.
Other options include having it run diskless... Done
that with my own machines on occasion... Like the 386
when it's 100Mb ALPS HD died. :(
> > When the disks spin down and the monitor and printer go on standby
> > I estimate total power consumption is in the 20 to 50 watt area.
> >
>
> Have you cosidered QNX or somesuch? Being a microkernel system, all the
> drivers run in userspace so it shouldn't be too much of an issue
Not sure that QNX is really what he's after...
Cheers,
Rupert
Rupert Pigott
Not at all, you can get at least as much 'fun' using an
MS Windows(R) OS. What's more it fully supports tricky-
to-transfer-legacy-data-formats(R).
tricky-to-transfer-lefacy-dataformats and MS Windows are
registered trademarks of Microsoft Corp.
Cheers,
Rupert
greymaus
> In article <acvp0c$bnn$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>> In article <1149.912T2...@sky.bus.com>,
>> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@sky.bus.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Nope. It's not munging. There are just some posts where I'm too
>>>>lazy to reformat lines of posters who still think that a .RM 80
>>>>is proper for posting.
>>>
>>>The ones that bug me post lines with lengths in the 100-110 range.
>>
>> Yup. I exaggerated ;-).
>>
>
> One way or another, slrn seems to fix most of these post for me when I
> follow up (well slrn or vi). Shame it doesn't seem to want to do if
> for reading!
It can be configured , AFAIK , just I never bothered .
> Or not as the case often seems to be! It just looks like it has.
>>> ... Speaking of
>>>proportional fonts, how about the people who try to draw ASCII
>>>diagrams in a proportinal font, and hit the space bar a million
>>>times to get across the screen?
>>
>> That's a bug w.r.t. the definition of a space-width. I don't think
>> anybody's got that right nor will they ever since it depends on
>> the user's immediate usage.
>>
>>> .. Looks like hell when viewed with
>>>a monospaced font - but I suppose we fossils are supposed to get
>>>with the program, aren't we?
>>
>> The reason we're fossils is because we know better. After all,
>> we're the ones who survived all the cullings that took place
>> over the years. The reason we survived is because we did
>> manage to do something right.
>>
>> Sorry. I'm still reacting based on my trip home. I got a
>> lot of flak because of my side trip to the Babbage Institute
>> (and I'm still getting some over the phone).
>>
>> /BAH
>>
>> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
>
>
--
Greymaus;
Follow up , don't e-mail , my killfile is savage ;
Next Year In Hak Nam ;
Tom Gough
<snip>
>>
>> Have you cosidered QNX or somesuch? Being a microkernel system, all the
>> drivers run in userspace so it shouldn't be too much of an issue
>
> Not sure that QNX is really what he's after...
>
> Cheers,
> Rupert
>
>
Tom Gough
tricky-to-transfer-data-formats are usually corrupted i find
thus increasing the fun!
Joel Garry
>In article <aceurc$ft7$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,>> I take umbrage! My followup was pretty damn useful. Imagine a world
>> without GatesCo.
>>
>> B-)
>
>Yeah, I'd like to also. <sigh>
We'd all be running CPM on Rainbows?
jg
--
These opinions are my own.
http://www.garry.to Oracle and unix guy.
mailto:joel-...@nospam.cox.net Remove nospam to reply.
Joel Garry
<c...@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk> wrote:
>According to Richard E. Hawkins <ha...@fac13.ds.psu.edu>:
>> I *do* get a kick out of microsoft's attacks on unix as "30 year old
>> technology"--given that windows sufferes from problems (multitasking)
>> that were solved prior to unix . . .
>
>I saw those comments and remember thinking that they might be more
>respected if they'd bothered to learn about that 30-year old technology
>rather than deriding it for being "old fashioned"...
Eh? GatesCo sold Xenix... and were too far ahead of the curve.
Joel Garry
>Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> Howard S Shubs <how...@shubs.net> wrote:
>>
>... snip ...
>> >
>> > Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give
>> > you useful answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
>>
>> When did the *ten* years become twenty?
>
>My 486/80 with a bios date of '94 is getting awfully close under
>that rule :-) With its memory maxed at 64 Meg it gets nothing
>further, apart from peripherals that will move to newer machinery
>without pain, such as 40G of HD, external modem, Laser printer,
>UPS, 17" monitor (just added, cost about 80 US$). Meanwhile it
>doesn't need CPU fans and suchlike. And it will certainly never
>grow any Micro$haft OS later than W98. My only real wish is that
>the ancient CDR/SB16 be more reliable. It fails to recover from
>errors, thus preventing loading a Linux system (so far).
>
>When the disks spin down and the monitor and printer go on standby
>I estimate total power consumption is in the 20 to 50 watt area.
OK, I often post from a Frankenstein box from about April, 1992, that
has some more, uh, recent parts in it. So how inclusive is this rule?
Should I leave the 5.25 floppy in to be PC? And how old does the unix
have to be to be correct? I have some slackware...
Joel Garry
>In article <ad5mrb$18...@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>,
> ha...@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:
>
>> In article <3cefed71...@news.ocis.net>,
>> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote:
>> >Howard S Shubs <how...@shubs.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>Unless that machine is at -least- 20 years old, we won't give you useful
>> >>answers. Find an appropriate newsgroup.
>>
>> > When did the *ten* years become twenty?
>>
>> They just don't make years like they did back in our day . . .
>
>Yeah, it's like tapes. They stretch.
Like those progammer minutes. "When will you come to bed?" "Just a
minute, dear..."
Howard S Shubs
joel-...@nospam.cox.net (Joel Garry) wrote:
> We'd all be running CPM on Rainbows?
Even better, we'd all be running VMS on workstations! And they'd almost
never crash.
Larry__Weiss
> GatesCo sold Xenix...
>
How involved was Bill Gates personally in Xenix?
I'm trying to figure out how much Gates really knows about how
Unix systems are architected.
- LarryW
P.S.
http://www.anchordesk.co.uk/anchordesk/commentary/columns/0,2415,7103397,00.html
explains the decision to sell Xenix as one made simply to avoid AT&T licensing fees.
Bill Marcum
survpc-s...@tmonroe.com
list...@softcon.com "subscribe survpc" in the body of the message.
These lists are dedicated to "survivor" PCs, which other folks might call
obsolete, but they don't have to be 10 years old. I think currently
anything up to a 200 MHz Pentium qualifies as a survivor PC.
There are two mailing lists because the tmonroe list was started while the
softcon list was down for a few weeks, and it developed a life of its own.
Joel Garry
>In article <slrnafts55.h...@zr1.vista1.sdca.cox.net>,
> joel-...@nospam.cox.net (Joel Garry) wrote:
>
>> We'd all be running CPM on Rainbows?
>
>Even better, we'd all be running VMS on workstations! And they'd almost
>never crash.
Too bad this never would have happened, with or without bg. The big
phoresis separating out microcomputers could never have been understood
by any minicomputer company. Or copier company. Or big iron company.
IBM almost got it, but they still blew it.
Joel Garry
>Joel Garry wrote:
>> GatesCo sold Xenix...
>>
>
>How involved was Bill Gates personally in Xenix?
>
>I'm trying to figure out how much Gates really knows about how
>Unix systems are architected.
Does it matter? He knew how DEC OS's were architected, and still he
purposefully put out crap.
>
> - LarryW
>
>P.S.
>http://www.anchordesk.co.uk/anchordesk/commentary/columns/0,2415,7103397,00.html
>explains the decision to sell Xenix as one made simply to avoid AT&T licensing fees.
Thanks!
Joel Garry
It ain't that slow anymore. The point is, parts of it _are_ more than
ten years old. Sounds like a very cpu-centric list. If I had a '32
Ford with a '92 Northstar engine, would that car be more than 10 years
old? (Perhaps not by DMV smog rules...) Would it be a hot-rod? You
betcha!
Andrew Sullivan
<A412764305357306.DFADC2CC...@lp.airnews.net>),
Larry__Weiss <l...@airmail.net> wrote:
> I'm trying to figure out how much Gates really knows about how
> Unix systems are architected.
This is not an attack, or even a Language Rant (to which I have been
known to be prone). But why do computer people (I'm including myself)
always talk about architecture, rather than design? I mean, I don't
think even architects ever say "architected" or "to architect". Yet we
talk that way. Are we just afraid that we never build anything real,
and so we have to make a big deal out of building stuff?
---
Andrew "rearchitected" Sullivan | Reply-To borked
In the future this spectacle of the middle classes shocking the avant-
garde will probably become the textbook definition of Postmodernism.
--Brad Holland
dave...@spamcop.net
> This is not an attack, or even a Language Rant (to which I have been
> known to be prone). But why do computer people (I'm including myself)
> always talk about architecture, rather than design?
Two distinct things, as I see it. The architect describes what to do;
the overall strategy, how things interact. The designer figures out how
to make the strategy work.
> I mean, I don't
> think even architects ever say "architected" or "to architect". Yet we
> talk that way. Are we just afraid that we never build anything real,
> and so we have to make a big deal out of building stuff?
Well, I designed and built my own house; every nail, every board. I
wouldn't describe myself as an architect in the housebuilding sense, yet
my title here says I'm a architect (of computer-ish things).
I've seen some of the folks in the brick&mortar architecture trades
get downright hostile about IT folks using that term, and even about
them (well, us) using the term "Engineer", on the theory that IT is an
art not a science, or some such thing. Seems to me, it's just a matter
of words evolving over time; 200 years ago, an "electrical engineer"
didn't exist either.
Dave "I prefer strategery to architecture anyways..." Hinz
Neil Franklin
> known to be prone). But why do computer people (I'm including myself)
> always talk about architecture, rather than design?
We use both, because we distinguish between architecture and design.
Architecture is applied to an general/abstract-level design, such
as an instruction set, or IO design.
Design is applied to an specific-level design, such an one specific
processor model implementing an instruction set, or an particular IO
device implementing the general design.
80x86 is an architecture. 80486DX is an design.
PDP-10 is an architecture. KA-10 is an design.
IBM 360 is an architecture. 360/55 is an design.
--
Neil Franklin, ne...@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer
- Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain
Heinz W. Wiggeshoff
...
> IBM 360 is an architecture. 360/55 is an design.
Never heard of it - got any details?
Charlie Gibbs
<a%6M8.213798$ah_....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
a...@ringer.phlogiston.dyndns.org (Andrew Sullivan) writes:
>On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 08:34:35 -0500, in alt.folklore.computers (message
><A412764305357306.DFADC2CC...@lp.airnews.net>),
>Larry__Weiss <l...@airmail.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to figure out how much Gates really knows about how
>> Unix systems are architected.
>
>This is not an attack, or even a Language Rant (to which I have been
>known to be prone). But why do computer people (I'm including myself)
>always talk about architecture, rather than design? I mean, I don't
>think even architects ever say "architected" or "to architect". Yet
>we talk that way. Are we just afraid that we never build anything
>real, and so we have to make a big deal out of building stuff?
IMHO it's just pomposity. "Architected" has more syllables than
"designed", so it's superior, right? Also, it follows the modern
obsession with forcing a noun into service as a verb, even though
a perfectly good verb exists. It's all just bafflegab.
Yes, I know this is a Language Rant. But making a big deal out
of building stuff is just one more attempt to impress others (or
dare I say ourselves) when we really don't have that much to offer,
and that's also why so many abuses of our language occur.
I design my programs, I don't "architect" them. I enter them into
the computer, I don't "input" them. And they generate reports,
they don't "output" them. I am confident in my own abilities, and
have no desire to deceive others. Thus I need not - and will not -
resort to anything other than plain English to describe my activities.
I am suspicious of anyone who cannot or will not do likewise.
Bafflegab such as "architected" sets off my bullshit detectors,
and in my mind damages the credibility of whoever uses it.
--
cgi...@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.
I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply,
appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it.
Rupert Pigott
news:2091.923T2...@sky.bus.com...
[SNIP]
> a perfectly good verb exists. It's all just bafflegab.
Bafflegab. That's a keeper :)
[SNIP]
> I design my programs, I don't "architect" them. I enter them into
> the computer, I don't "input" them. And they generate reports,
> they don't "output" them. I am confident in my own abilities, and
I think that most of my code blends pomposity with humility.
The code I write usually uses Standard Input and Standard
Output. :P
Cheers,
Rupert
aes
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@sky.bus.com> wrote:
> >But why do computer people (I'm including myself)
> >always talk about architecture, rather than design?
I suppose one reason is because "design", whether we're
talking computer programs or buildings, could be interpreted
to some extent as referring to the external design of the
program or the building (plus maybe the floor plan), while
an architect in either case develops, and more important
understands, the detailed structure of the internal
elements, "under the skin", that make the design possible.
Lots of people "design" their dream homes, then turn them
over to an architect to draw up the detailed plans that make
them realistic. And as I user I can understand the design
of a computer program, in the sense of understanding what
it's designed to do, without understanding the underlying
architecture of the coding.
Not trying to push this viewpoint hard, just offering one
reason for using the term.
Tom Gough
IT is both an art and a science. Often, artists call it science, and
scientists art. It's a funny old game.
BTW Anyone see the England match? We were, for once, superb in defence!
Jim Esler
>
> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@sky.bus.com> wrote in message
> news:2091.923T2...@sky.bus.com...
> [SNIP]
> > a perfectly good verb exists. It's all just bafflegab.
>
> Bafflegab. That's a keeper :)
Yep. Two verbs stuck together and forced into service as a noun, when a
perfectly good noun exists.
--
Jim Esler
Rupert Pigott
LOL, 99.9% of computing is 'just' engineering IMHO. I don't call
Charles Babbage an artist, I don't call Turing an artist... I
don't call them engineers either, but mathmaticians. I think
that we're flattering ourselves if we call what we do art, and it
leaves all sorts of excuses open to people pushing poor solutions.
There is a beauty to the some solutions, sure, but that's a result
of engineering, not someone trying to make art.
If Picasso did some development work I think he'd use PERL or VB.
Lemme see... Who else... Damien Hirst would use C++. Monet would
be an Algol-60 kinda guy. Hmm, FORTRAN is tricky, not sure who I
would pin that on.
Cheers,
Rupert
Nick Spalding
> LOL, 99.9% of computing is 'just' engineering IMHO. I don't call
> Charles Babbage an artist, I don't call Turing an artist... I
> don't call them engineers either, but mathmaticians. I think
> that we're flattering ourselves if we call what we do art, and it
> leaves all sorts of excuses open to people pushing poor solutions.
> There is a beauty to the some solutions, sure, but that's a result
> of engineering, not someone trying to make art.
>
> If Picasso did some development work I think he'd use PERL or VB.
> Lemme see... Who else... Damien Hirst would use C++. Monet would
> be an Algol-60 kinda guy. Hmm, FORTRAN is tricky, not sure who I
> would pin that on.
An old colleague of mine used to say that system design and
programming was not art, science, engineering or whatever else but a
craft.
--
Nick Spalding
jmfb...@aol.com
><a%6M8.213798$ah_....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
>a...@ringer.phlogiston.dyndns.org (Andrew Sullivan) writes:
>
>>On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 08:34:35 -0500, in alt.folklore.computers (message
>><A412764305357306.DFADC2CC...@lp.airnews.net>),
>>Larry__Weiss <l...@airmail.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm trying to figure out how much Gates really knows about how
>>> Unix systems are architected.
>>
>>This is not an attack, or even a Language Rant (to which I have been
>>known to be prone). But why do computer people (I'm including myself)
>>always talk about architecture, rather than design? I mean, I don't
>>think even architects ever say "architected" or "to architect". Yet
>>we talk that way. Are we just afraid that we never build anything
>>real, and so we have to make a big deal out of building stuff?
>
>IMHO it's just pomposity. "Architected" has more syllables than
>"designed", so it's superior, right? Also, it follows the modern
>obsession with forcing a noun into service as a verb, even though
>a perfectly good verb exists. It's all just bafflegab.
<grin> You do have a way with words, Charlie.
>
>Yes, I know this is a Language Rant. But making a big deal out
>of building stuff is just one more attempt to impress others (or
>dare I say ourselves) when we really don't have that much to offer,
>and that's also why so many abuses of our language occur.
>
>I design my programs, I don't "architect" them. I enter them into
>the computer, I don't "input" them. And they generate reports,
>they don't "output" them. I am confident in my own abilities, and
>have no desire to deceive others. Thus I need not - and will not -
>resort to anything other than plain English to describe my activities.
>I am suspicious of anyone who cannot or will not do likewise.
>Bafflegab such as "architected" sets off my bullshit detectors,
>and in my mind damages the credibility of whoever uses it.
I typed in a paper that JMF and CDO wrote. They called it an
architecture spec. That paper was to be used as input for
design and functional specs that were specific to hard/software
platforms. (This use of the word is not to be confused with
its use in CPU architecture.) I think JMF's definition of
architecture spec is that no code can be written based on it.
If it can, then it's a design spec.
<shrug> But then, DEC also called us engineers and we sure
didn't feel like one. So I don't know how much of the naming
convention was poofery and how much was a good use of the word.
Ross Simpson
"Rupert Pigott" wrote in message...
> LOL, 99.9% of computing is 'just' engineering IMHO. I don't call
> Charles Babbage an artist, I don't call Turing an artist... I
> don't call them engineers either, but mathmaticians. I think
> that we're flattering ourselves if we call what we do art, and it
> leaves all sorts of excuses open to people pushing poor solutions.
> There is a beauty to the some solutions, sure, but that's a result
> of engineering, not someone trying to make art.
Well I think that the things which make up a computer & how it works
has a number of elements. Maths is one of those elements which makes
it work as well as electronics which I think goes into the area of
science.
I don't know how someone can come up with art, I wouldn't exactly draw
up the schematics of a computer with a paintbrush! :-)
Drawing up an electronic design of a computer is all in the
electronics process!
Regards,
Ross.
Ross Simpson
> An old colleague of mine used to say that system design and
> programming was not art, science, engineering or whatever else but a
> craft.
That's absurd!
Regards,
Ross.
Stan Barr
<dark.try-eati...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>If Picasso did some development work I think he'd use PERL or VB.
>Lemme see...
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
Pablo Picasso
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr st...@dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
Jim Esler
>
> "Tom Gough" <gou...@email.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnag2sb9...@loose-tannins.demon.co.uk...
> > In article <adquu0$1kdj3$4...@ID-134476.news.dfncis.de>, dave...@spamcop.net
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Two distinct things, as I see it. The architect describes what to do;
> > > the overall strategy, how things interact. The designer figures out how
> > > to make the strategy work.
> > >
> > > wouldn't describe myself as an architect in the housebuilding sense, yet
> > > my title here says I'm a architect (of computer-ish things).
> > >
> > > I've seen some of the folks in the brick&mortar architecture trades
> > > get downright hostile about IT folks using that term, and even about
> > > them (well, us) using the term "Engineer", on the theory that IT is an
> > > art not a science, or some such thing. Seems to me, it's just a matter
> > > of words evolving over time; 200 years ago, an "electrical engineer"
> > > didn't exist either.
> > >
> > > Dave "I prefer strategery to architecture anyways..." Hinz
> > >
> >
> > IT is both an art and a science. Often, artists call it science, and
> > scientists art. It's a funny old game.
>
> LOL, 99.9% of computing is 'just' engineering IMHO. I don't call
> Charles Babbage an artist, I don't call Turing an artist... I
> don't call them engineers either, but mathmaticians. I think
> that we're flattering ourselves if we call what we do art, and it
> leaves all sorts of excuses open to people pushing poor solutions.
> There is a beauty to the some solutions, sure, but that's a result
> of engineering, not someone trying to make art.
From Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:
art: 1: skill acquired by experience, study, or observation 2 a: a
branch of learning: (1) one of the humanities (2) liberal arts ... 3: an
occupation requiring knowledge or skill ... 4 a: the conscious use of
skill and creative imagination esp. in the production of aesthetic
objects; also : works so produced b (1) fine arts (2) one of the fine
arts (3): a graphic art 5 ... the state of being artful 6: decorative or
illustrative elements in printed matter.
As with many words in English, it is overloaded with meanings. Some of
the meanings do not work well with related words. Is someone who
practices an art always an artist, or is that word reserved for a
certain class of arts? Break down the meaning of the words in the title
'Vice President', and tell me if you want to be one.
Some programming is pure math, some is strictly engineering, as it
applies the principles of those disciplines. Some programming goes
beyond these concrete methodologies. I have no problem describing this
kind of work as an art.
--
Jim Esler
Rupert Pigott
news:slrnag40sa...@citadel.metropolis.local...
> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 10:41:19 +0000 (UTC), Rupert Pigott
> <dark.try-eati...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> >If Picasso did some development work I think he'd use PERL or VB.
> >Lemme see...
>
> "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
> Pablo Picasso
Aha, so he was a VB man afterall. ;)
Cheers,
Rupert
Rupert Pigott
news:3D021DF5...@earthlink.net...
[SNIP]
> Some programming is pure math, some is strictly engineering, as it
> applies the principles of those disciplines. Some programming goes
> beyond these concrete methodologies. I have no problem describing this
> kind of work as an art.
My prejudice against the use of the word "art" is that
in my experience it's been used by primadonnas to tell
me that their bad engineering is good practice. :)
It raises my hackles...
Anyways, how about FORTRAN ? I'm really struggling to
pin an artist to that one... I was thinking Rube
Goldberg, but nah, that would have to be C99...
Cheers,
Rupert
Tom Gough
What Turing did was beautiful, hence art.
>
> If Picasso did some development work I think he'd use PERL or VB.
> Lemme see... Who else... Damien Hirst would use C++. Monet would
> be an Algol-60 kinda guy. Hmm, FORTRAN is tricky, not sure who I
> would pin that on.
>
Something v. ugly for FORTRAN !
> Cheers,
> Rupert
>
>
Tom Gough
Tom Gough
ROTF!
VB is très ugly!
--
http://www.guild.bham.ac.uk/chess-club
Charles Shannon Hendrix
> My prejudice against the use of the word "art" is that
> in my experience it's been used by primadonnas to tell
> me that their bad engineering is good practice. :)
I rarely see those kinds of people calling it art, but I suppose that
could happen.
> Anyways, how about FORTRAN ? I'm really struggling to pin an artist to
> that one... I was thinking Rube Goldberg, but nah, that would have to
> be C99...
C99... you have to worry about a standard that says strength and
stromboli are reserved words.
Still, I think trying to write in Tcl or C-Shell is usually a Rube
Goldberg-ian kind of thing.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Art as in the art of doing something, culinary art,
skillful practice/use of knowledge.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Ross Simpson
> Art as in the art of doing something, culinary art,
> skillful practice/use of knowledge.
Ah, well, since you put it like that all if forgiven.
However the subject seems to imply it quite differently.
Regards,
Ross.
Bruce B. Reynolds
>Hmm, FORTRAN is tricky, not sure who I
>would pin that on.
Mondrian?
--
Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA
greymaus
>>> > of words evolving over time; 200 years ago, an "electrical engineer"
>>> > didn't exist either.
>>> >
>>> > Dave "I prefer strategery to architecture anyways..." Hinz
>>> >
>>>
>>> IT is both an art and a science. Often, artists call it science, and
>>> scientists art. It's a funny old game.
>>
>> LOL, 99.9% of computing is 'just' engineering IMHO. I don't call
>> Charles Babbage an artist, I don't call Turing an artist... I
>> that we're flattering ourselves if we call what we do art, and it
>> leaves all sorts of excuses open to people pushing poor solutions.
>> There is a beauty to the some solutions, sure, but that's a result
>> of engineering, not someone trying to make art.
>
> What Turing did was beautiful, hence art.
>
>>
>> If Picasso did some development work I think he'd use PERL or VB.
>> Lemme see... Who else... Damien Hirst would use C++. Monet would
>> be an Algol-60 kinda guy. Hmm, FORTRAN is tricky, not sure who I
>> would pin that on.
>>
> Something v. ugly for FORTRAN !
Dunno , sorta first , workmanlike , useful , not hard to understand
.. Cave man art?
>
>> Cheers,
>> Rupert
>>
>>
>
>
--
Greymaus;
Follow up , don't e-mail , my killfile is savage ;
Next Year In , well , wherever ;
Rupert Pigott
news:advmkn$2mc3p$1...@ID-132592.news.dfncis.de...
[SNIP]
> Dunno , sorta first , workmanlike , useful , not hard to understand
> .. Cave man art?
How about that guy who did the famous Matchstick Men paintings ?
Wosshisname. Dammit. Another braincell bites the dust.
Cheers,
Rupert
Tim Shoppa
>
> In article <adsn0e$adl$1...@paris.btinternet.com>, "Rupert Pigott"
> <dark.try-eati...@btinternet.com> writes:
>
> >Hmm, FORTRAN is tricky, not sure who I
> >would pin that on.
>
> Mondrian?
Definitely Warhol :-). The hair of most Fortran programmers
looks like his already...
Tim.