Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE

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legu...@canr.hydro.qc.ca

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Nov 4, 2003, 2:14:13 PM11/4/03
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Hello everyone,
I'm looking for the following rare pieces of software:

- Q-DOS (Quick and Dirty OS). This was the very first work on what would
become PC/MS DOS. This software dates from 1980, and has been
produced by Seattle Computer Products.
- 86-DOS: Q-DOS has been renamed 86-DOS in late 1980, as SCP released
version 0.30 (I think)

- CP/M 1.3: The very first version of CP/M in 1976.
- CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE: This is a first "beta" release of CP/M-86
that Gary Kildall wrote in mid 1981, before it has been introduced on
the PC in 1982.

I'm looking for either the original disks, a copy of them, or disk images
sent through e-mail. I offer some $reward$.....
All these come on 8" SSSD, except CP/M-86 which is on 5.25", and I am
able to read 8" SSSD or write back disk image to real 8" floppies.

Thanks for any help.

Louis-Luc

Barry Watzman

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Nov 4, 2003, 4:01:52 PM11/4/03
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CP/M-86 was released on 8" SSSD media LONG before (like a year before)
the IBM-PC ever existed, and longer still before CP/M-86 was released on
5.25" media for the PC (by either DR or IBM). It was not a "Preliminary
release", it was a full finished product with perfect-bound,
professionally printed documentation (8.5" x 11" size, not "PC-size").
There is really nothing special about it, all of the CP/M-86 releases
are virtually identical as far as the OS itself (CCP and BDOS) are
concerned, a very few bugs were fixed but CP/M-86 never had a really
major revision. The 5.25" release for the PC, however, did not have the
full suite of development tools (ASM86, DDT(86) and GENCMD running under
both 8080 and 8086 processors, for example) that were included in the 8"
version of CP/M-86.

I have that, I also have 86-DOS, quite a few versions from 0.3 or so to
some 8" versions past where MS had bought it from SCP and it had
actually become MS-DOS.

I also have the Imsai version of CP/M 1.3 also, somewhere, I think (I
had it, but there's a chance that I got rid of it decades ago when 1.4
came out). I used that with the old blue IMSAI dual-Calcomp disk system
(like the one that I sold on E-Bay a month or so ago) until 1.4 came out.

Unfortunately, I don't have a running system that can easily read and
duplicate those disks on, if they are still readable at all, and I won't
part with the originals, even temporarily (you are not the first person
to ask). If, however, you want to come here with a system to duplicate
them with me on-site, then we can talk.

[Actually, I DO have a working Zenith Z-100 with dual 8" drives here,
but I don't trust the Zenith copy utilities because they write a
"header" in Track 0 sector 1, and I haven't adapted a "generic"
OS-independent copy utility to run on the Z-100, although it shouldn't
be hard to do, in fact I probably have such a utility, perhaps even on
the Z-100's hard drive.]

I have thought about selling the 86-DOS copy on E-Bay, anyone have any
idea what it might bring? It's complete with documentation in the "SCP
binders" and even invoice, and because of the many versions involved as
it developed, it's quite 3-ring binders and disks -- a veritable history
of the development of 86-DOS ==> MS-DOS. I even still have the SCP
hardware that it runs on (the 8086 CPU, the CPU support board and the
SCP 4-port serial card).

Perhaps Mr. Gates or Mr. Allen would be interested in buying it. I'd
want a lot for it, but I'd sell it for under the $50,000 that they paid
once before.

MikePCW

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Nov 4, 2003, 5:26:14 PM11/4/03
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legu...@canr.hydro.qc.ca wrote in message news:<9USpb.9425$Ng3....@charlie.risq.qc.ca>...

> Hello everyone,
> I'm looking for the following rare pieces of software:
> - CP/M 1.3: The very first version of CP/M in 1976.
> - CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE: This is a first "beta" release of CP/M-86
> that Gary Kildall wrote in mid 1981, before it has been introduced on
> the PC in 1982.

You can see in www.cpm.z80.de for CP/M binaries & sources.

Regards,

Mike

Richard

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Nov 4, 2003, 7:42:08 PM11/4/03
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legu...@canr.hydro.qc.ca wrote

> I'm looking for the following rare pieces of software:

Still ? I remember from years ago ...



> - Q-DOS (Quick and Dirty OS). This was the very first work on what would
> become PC/MS DOS. This software dates from 1980, and has been
> produced by Seattle Computer Products.

I have doubts that this was ever released under the name Q-DOS.



> - 86-DOS: Q-DOS has been renamed 86-DOS in late 1980, as SCP released
> version 0.30 (I think)

86-DOS certainly was avilable as shown by adverts.

> - CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE: This is a first "beta" release of CP/M-86
> that Gary Kildall wrote in mid 1981, before it has been introduced on
> the PC in 1982.

In the Osborne/McGraw-Hill CP/M-86 User's Guide it lists 'Generic
CP/M-86' 1.0 as January 1981 and 1.1 as 'early 1982'. This of course
was only sold to OEMs for developing to suit their machines.

CompuPro releases are listed as 1.0E May 1981, 1.1K June 1982.

IBM PC Releases as IBM distribution March 1982, 1.1 (DRI retail) March
1983, 1.1 for XT mid 1983.

CP/M-86 version 1.1 for the IBM PC was, I believe, the first DRI
produced retail version. They did this because IBM refused to sell
anything other than the original 1.0 and for $250.00. (probably
because they were still angry at having to settle with DRI over
copyright issues in PC-DOS- one part of the settlement being they were
to sell CP/M-86).

All other CP/M-86s were from manufacturers.

Richard

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Nov 5, 2003, 4:09:31 AM11/5/03
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Barry Watzman <Watzma...@neo.rr.com> wrote

> I have that, I also have 86-DOS, quite a few versions from 0.3 or so to
> some 8" versions past where MS had bought it from SCP and it had
> actually become MS-DOS.

Did any of those versions have any file system other than FAT ? CP/M for example ?

Phil Dumpster

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Nov 5, 2003, 10:27:06 AM11/5/03
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Probably the versions Tim did at Seattle Computer used the CP/M file system,
or something very similar to it. FAT wasn't grafted in until it was in the
hands of Microsoft.

You'd have to ask those involved for the details, as this is merely
speculation.

legu...@canr.hydro.qc.ca

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Nov 5, 2003, 10:52:24 AM11/5/03
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In comp.os.cpm Phil Dumpster <dump...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Richard wrote:
>>
>> Barry Watzman <Watzma...@neo.rr.com> wrote
>>
>> > I have that, I also have 86-DOS, quite a few versions from 0.3 or so to
>> > some 8" versions past where MS had bought it from SCP and it had
>> > actually become MS-DOS.
>>
>> Did any of those versions have any file system other than FAT ? CP/M for example ?
>
> Probably the versions Tim did at Seattle Computer used the CP/M file system,
> or something very similar to it. FAT wasn't grafted in until it was in the
> hands of Microsoft.
>
I have a copy of v1.0 for Cromemco, and I've been able to extract the
disk image from the 8" SSSD into a file with Anadisk. I've then been able
to dump what I assumed to be the FAT sectors onto a 5.25" 160KB disk for
PC, as well as the directory listing. And all the files are there, with
real dates and sizes! The only challenge here is to make it boot a PC, but
that would require much more work.

I'm sure there is the same FAT on the 8" version except it's 768 bytes instead
of 512. Fortunately, the 8" FAT was not bigger than 512 bytes, so I could
fit it in the space for FAT on the 5.25" for PC.

So did Tim Paterson with SCP invent FATs (and not M$)?

Louis-Luc

legu...@canr.hydro.qc.ca

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Nov 5, 2003, 10:53:01 AM11/5/03
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>> - CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE: This is a first "beta" release of CP/M-86
>> that Gary Kildall wrote in mid 1981, before it has been introduced on
>> the PC in 1982.
>
> In the Osborne/McGraw-Hill CP/M-86 User's Guide it lists 'Generic
> CP/M-86' 1.0 as January 1981 and 1.1 as 'early 1982'. This of course
> was only sold to OEMs for developing to suit their machines.
>
Yes, there is certainly a 1.0 dated January 1981, and this one would be
interesting as well. Since it's generic, then it's likely to reside on
8" SSSD disk as well.
What I mention above is different. It's the "beta" version that Gary
Kildall adapted to the IBM PC in mid 1981, as the date suggests. I know
it must be on 5.25" because I have a photo showing an IBM PC booted with
that diskette, and we can faintly see the screen. It says first
"CP/M-86 bootstrap loader 1.0"
"Loading track 0 1 2 3 4"
or something similar. It's the exact same text as the v1.0 for PC, the one
IBM sold for $250 and that many of us have. The text says:
"CP/M-86 for the IBM PC, PRELIMINARY RELEASE 2.2.5" and there
is a date on the screen, but it's to faint to be readable without doubt
because of the glare of camera flash. By guessing, I see something like
08/07/81.

I found this photo on the Internet about 5-6 years ago. I couldn't
determine the website or where it came from. This photo came along with
4 others as follows:
- A photo of that PC farther away where we see a 5.25" disk box and the
same green screen. There is a man (maybe Gary Kildall) holding
a diskette.
- A photo showing Gary Kildall next to his personal plane preparing to fly
(instead of attending the meeting with IBM)
- A third one shows him preparing a BBQ.
- And another one shows him (supposedly) attending a certain meeting with
holding a styrofoam cup.

Anyone wants the photos? I'll send them personally to anyone who wants
a copy, or wants to have a look at this "mystery" CP/M-86 release and
perhaps try to locate it, and to assert or deny Gary Kildall is really the
man on these photos... The filename suggests Gary is making the BBQ and
preparing to fly, but the ones with the computer they suggests the
person is name Andy (so not Gary).

> CompuPro releases are listed as 1.0E May 1981, 1.1K June 1982.
>
> IBM PC Releases as IBM distribution March 1982, 1.1 (DRI retail) March
> 1983, 1.1 for XT mid 1983.

The March '82 is the 1.0 with the same "bootstrap loader" text as the
mystery "PRELIMINARY RELEASE" discussed above.
And the v1.1 in 1983 is the first one DRI sold for XTs, and as opposed to
1.0 which runs on every modern PC, the 1.1 needs the "AT patch" available
in our community.

Louis-Luc

Barry Watzman

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Nov 5, 2003, 11:42:04 AM11/5/03
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Re: "In the Osborne/McGraw-Hill CP/M-86 User's Guide it lists 'Generic

CP/M-86' 1.0 as January 1981 and 1.1 as 'early 1982'. This of course
was only sold to OEMs for developing to suit their machines."

No, it was available for retail single-copy purchase on 8" disks with
the Intel MDS-86 BIOS, needing to be customized much as a generic retail
copy of CP/M v2.2 would be. It was sold by Digital Research themselves
(direct), and at least by Lifeboat Associates in NYC, probably by
others. I believe that it was $150.

Barry Watzman

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Nov 5, 2003, 11:44:17 AM11/5/03
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No, SCP 86-DOS used the 12-bit FAT file system (only). It was
difficult, if not impossible, to bring this up without the SCP hardware.
However the system did have a file transfer program to copy files
between a CP/M 8" diskette (SSSD) and the 8" SCP disks using FAT-12.
The problem was that you couldn't use this utility until after the
86-DOS system itself was up and running.

Barry Watzman

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Nov 5, 2003, 11:45:52 AM11/5/03
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Re: "FAT wasn't grafted in until it was in the hands of Microsoft."

That's simply not correct. Version 0.3x, which was well before the MS
acquisition, was FAT-12 on 8" SSSD media. As far as I know, 86-DOS
NEVER supported CP/M media natively.

Barry Watzman

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Nov 5, 2003, 11:47:05 AM11/5/03
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Re: "So did Tim Paterson with SCP invent FATs (and not M$)?"

I'd have to answer yes, based on everything that I've seen and heard.

Richard

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Nov 5, 2003, 1:30:13 PM11/5/03
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legu...@canr.hydro.qc.ca wrote

> So did Tim Paterson with SCP invent FATs (and not M$)?

I don't think that there is any dispute that FAT originated in 'Stand
Alone BASIC' and that Marc McDonald wrote it.

"""Another important contract from NCR required development of a disk
version of BASIC for their 8200 terminal. The company assigned Marc
McDonald to the project who developed a new disk formatting concept
that used a File Allocation Table (FAT). The FAT controlled the
sequence of data stored on a disk and improved the
performance of disk operations. The company used the concept of a file
allocation table in Microsoft Stand-alone Disk BASIC. Also in a
Microsoft operating system project called MIDAS and later in QDOS by
Tim Paterson of Seattle Computer Products."""

Tim was working for Microsoft at times, eg on the Z80 Softcard with
CP/M, and so would know the people in MS and may have 'borrowed' the
ideas.

nos...@nouce.bellatlantic.net

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Nov 5, 2003, 7:20:10 PM11/5/03
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On 4 Nov 2003 16:42:08 -0800, rip...@Azonic.co.nz (Richard) wrote:

>In the Osborne/McGraw-Hill CP/M-86 User's Guide it lists 'Generic
>CP/M-86' 1.0 as January 1981 and 1.1 as 'early 1982'. This of course
>was only sold to OEMs for developing to suit their machines.

They are wrong by at least 6months.

>All other CP/M-86s were from manufacturers.

I have installed DRI supplied CP/M-86 on a 8086/8 powered Multibus
crate back in late 1980 running with two sided NEC 8" floppies. Even
did the user BIOS that was remarkably like CP/M 2.2 BIOS. The system
had 256kb of ram an could blow the doors of the IBM as a zero effort
enterprize. Still have some of my working disks from then.

There is a lot of "Official" lore that was often inaccurate.

Allison

MikePCW

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Nov 6, 2003, 3:50:31 AM11/6/03
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legu...@canr.hydro.qc.ca wrote in message news:<x19qb.9656$Ng3...@charlie.risq.qc.ca>...

> Anyone wants the photos? I'll send them personally to anyone who wants
> a copy, or wants to have a look at this "mystery" CP/M-86 release and
> perhaps try to locate it, and to assert or deny Gary Kildall is really the
> man on these photos... The filename suggests Gary is making the BBQ and
> preparing to fly, but the ones with the computer they suggests the
> person is name Andy (so not Gary).

Andy Johnson - Laird, possibly...

Regards,

Mike

Paul Ryan

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Nov 10, 2003, 9:18:47 PM11/10/03
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> Anyone wants the photos? I'll send them personally to anyone who wants
> a copy, or wants to have a look at this "mystery" CP/M-86 release and
> perhaps try to locate it, and to assert or deny Gary Kildall is really the
> man on these photos... The filename suggests Gary is making the BBQ and
> preparing to fly, but the ones with the computer they suggests the
> person is name Andy (so not Gary).

I would love a copy of them:

pryan at n t l w o r l d . c o m

Paul


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