Whatever Happened to VisiCalc?
Eric Chevalier
mind for quite a while. This seems like the perfect place to pose the
question:
Whatever happened to VisiCalc?
Back in '82 or '83, I bought a copy to go along with my first PC. While it
may not be much by today's standards (I'm certainly not about to trade away
my copy of Excel!) it was a hell of an improvement over the other tools I
was using back then (primarily a calculator along with pencils and plenty
of paper!)
Just for fun, a few months ago I dug out my VisiCalc diskettes and tried to
see if the program would run on my current, 486-based system. It didn't
get very far; the program wouldn't load at all. I don't know whether the
problem is related to the copy-protection techniques that were used at the
time, or whether VisiCalc just got confused trying to run under DOS 6.2!
Does anyone know if the VisiCalc source code even exists any more? I have
this vision of a box of floppy disks, gathering dust in someone's garage.
If the source code does exist, it seems like donating the material to a
museum somewhere (perhaps the Boston Computer Museum) would be an excellent
resting place for the package. I can't imagine that VisiCalc's source code
has much commercial value these days, but it must have a good deal of
historical value; after all, we're talking about a package that probably
did more to jump-start the desktop computer business than any other
software package I can think of.
(Actually, maybe there is some commercial value to the source code; while I
could never go back to VisiCalc as a working tool, I might consider paying
$20-$30 for a copy that would work on my PC just so I could show people
what the mother of all spreadsheets was like!)
Thinking about this question leads to a couple more, as well:
Whatever happened to VisiOn?
I believe VisiOn predated Windows 1.0 as a GUI environment for the PC. But
as I recall, VisiOn finally came to market just when VisiCorp and Software
Arts were having their breakup, and VisiOn seemed to have gotten lost in
the divorce proceedings.
Whatever happened to Context-MBA?
This was the world's first "integrated" spreadsheet package. It claimed to
combine spreadsheet, graphics, word processing and I think even database
capabilities into one package. Although it came out just before Lotus 1-2-
3, the package was written in UCSD P-System (which could be subject of it's
own "where are they now" discussion...); it was apparently dreadfully slow
compared to 1-2-3, and had trouble working in the DOS environment. I seem
to recall that it couldn't even share files very well with the DOS
environment. I believe that Context Management Systems eventually came out
with a version that was recompiled and built for the DOS environment, but
by then 1-2-3 had taken over the market. I never had a chance to use a
copy of the product, but I have one of their sales brochures from 1983.
It sure seemed like an impressive product!
Any information about any of these products would be appreciated, if for no
other reason than to satisfy my historical curiosity!
Eric Chevalier
Linda Richards
TRS80s were Microsoft products. Or do I have it mixed up with ScripSit?
Linda "I could be wrong. I was wrong once before. Unfortunately, I married
him" Richards
--
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Linda_R...@mindlink.bc.ca -----------
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courtesy of the ex-executioner -----------
Ernst 'pooh' Mulder
A related question:
On which computer was VisiCalc first programmed? Half the people say
Apple ][, the other half claim IBM. I'd like to know.
Furthermore, what about the rumours about the programmer (forgive me for
being ignorant, I don't remember the programmer's name...) of VisiCalc
being a millionaire, what does this programmer do nowadays?
pooh
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Kip Crosby
In article <etechCI...@netcom.com>, Eric Chevalier (et...@netcom.com) writes:
>I have an off-the-wall question that's been running around the back of my
Actually, you have three. Thank you for not attaching these
questions to my wall.
>Whatever happened to VisiCalc?
Don't know off the top, but Dan Bricklin (who later developed the
fine prototyping tool DEMO2) would, and occasionally surfaces on
the net. Maybe he'll see this.
>Thinking about this question leads to a couple more, as well:
>
>Whatever happened to VisiOn?....I believe VisiOn predated Windows
1.0 as a GUI environment for the PC.
>
So it did; it was introduced at fall COMDEX in November 1982, a
year before Windows 1.0. It was a windowing system written in a
clean-room, with little if any notion of memory protection, and
compelled (see date) to run on an 8088, which it barely would. It
required 512K RAM, a nearly impossible amount -- even an AST
SixPakPlus (which may or may not have been out by then?) would
only punch out the original PC's 64K to 256K -- and the list price
of the whole suite was to be $1,495. People stayed away in droves.
>Whatever happened to Context-MBA?
Primarily, it died of its own slowness as you suggest, especially
compared to 1-2-3 which was pretty zippy. I also heard that the
word processor really wasn't much use.... Integrated suites
were clearly not ready for prime time and Lotus, after all, had the
same problems with Symphony, which sold much better than
Context-MBA but was no blockbuster either.
__________________________________________
Kip Crosby c...@chac.win.net
Computer History Association of California
"History is what you make it...."
Taylor Hutt
Ernst 'pooh' Mulder <po...@stack.urc.tue.nl> wrote:
>
>A related question:
>
>On which computer was VisiCalc first programmed? Half the people say
>Apple ][, the other half claim IBM. I'd like to know.
VisiCalc first appeared on the Apple ][+ before the IBM PC was even
released. It was one of the first pieces of software that required 48K,
and would take advantage of a memory card if you had one.
>
>Furthermore, what about the rumours about the programmer (forgive me for
>being ignorant, I don't remember the programmer's name...) of VisiCalc
>being a millionaire, what does this programmer do nowadays?
>
The creators of VisiCalc, Dan Bricklin and Alan Frankston, made
considerable amounts of money, but I believe they also lost considerable
amounts of money with the legal battles with VisiCorp and the other
company that was publishing the software (Software Publishers, I believe).
Dan Bricklin went on and made Dan Bricklin's Demo (which went thru many
companies, and is now owned by Peter Norton computing, which is owned by
Symantec).
Alan Frankston was/is a chief scientist at Lotus Corporation, working on 123.
On a related subject, I am looking for any old TRS-80 people that recall
a product called 'Analysis Pad'. I need to know when it was released,
and who wrote it, and what company produced it.
Taylor Hutt
Don M Chaffee
Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston (not Alan) are alive and well and still
living in Newton. Dan's Software Garden is still in existence and Bob may
do some occasional consulting for Lotus, but I don't think he's on staff
any more. Both are involved in Slate, Inc., an Arizona-based company that
makes and sells development tools and applications for pen computers
(both PenPoint and Pen Windows). They work out of Slate's East Coast
office, run by Lisa Underkopfler, another veteran of Software Arts, Inc.,
makers of VisiCalc.
Both are having fun working, playing, and raising munchkins, all of which
are prodigies. Both regularly appear on panel discussions and in
workshops all over the country.
Paul Guertin
>
>On which computer was VisiCalc first programmed? Half the people say
>Apple ][, the other half claim IBM. I'd like to know.
I have an original, 40-column version of Visicalc for the Apple ][,
and it's copyright 1979 Software Arts, Inc. The IBM PC was released
in 1981...
Paul Guertin
guer...@iro.umontreal.ca
Gerald
>Whatever happened to VisiCalc?
Software Arts developed it and Personal Software (later Visicorp) marketed
it. I think the royalty deal they made gave too much too Software Arts.
The industry was still learning. Software Arts put a lot of energy into
making VisiCalc work on many different platforms. I think there was a
mini (A Prime?) that they used for development.
Eventually Lotus bought them and Frankston was chief scientist for a while
then he went to a company developing software for pen based systems.
I might have Frankston's email address around. Bricklin's company that
developed Demo is Software Garden. I don't know its status.
VisiCalc sold a lot of Apple IIs. I consider it better by far and more
useful than any software for the Apple II that preceeded it.
--
Gerald Ruderman
g...@vanward.ci.net
Ernst 'pooh' Mulder
>In article <93123101...@brokendrum.stack.urc.tue.nl>,
>Ernst 'pooh' Mulder <po...@stack.urc.tue.nl> (myself) writes:
>>On which computer was VisiCalc first programmed? Half the people say
>>Apple ][, the other half claim IBM. I'd like to know.
Sorry! I meant TRS-80, not IBM of course. Thanks for the follow-up and the
correction, Taylot Hutt.
In article <2g1k1k$9...@explorer.clark.net>,
th...@clark.net (Taylor Hutt) writes:
>On a related subject, I am looking for any old TRS-80 people that recall
>a product called 'Analysis Pad'. I need to know when it was released,
>and who wrote it, and what company produced it.
Never heard of it. But I do remember NewDos-80, which I really think was a
quite great OS. Anyone else remember 'DFG' and 'JKL'? Or SuperZap?
David Lesher
I saw his slide show at CPCUG in 87/88.
Props included a FedEx deliveryperson.......
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close............(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead..............vr chevron-free.......20915-1433
Katy Mulvey
: On which computer was VisiCalc first programmed? Half the people say
: Apple ][, the other half claim IBM. I'd like to know.
I'm taking my information from the interview with Dan Bricklin (the
programmer) in "Programmers at Work" by Susan Lammers (Pengiun
Books (1986)/Microsoft Press (1989)).
IBM was one of the later machines -- in the interview, Bricklin says:
When IBM announced their PC, they annouced it with VisiCalc.
And they would not announce it unless VisiCalc was running
to a certain percentage, enough to ship; they're very
fussy.
He goes on to explain how they ported it from Z80 assembly to
8086/8088 code with their own assembler.
The first computer it was developed for was the Apple II. Why? A
fellow student had recently done some sort of survey about micros
and software marketability, and happened to have an Apple II and
a Radio Shack (presumably a TRS-80) available.
Other early machines it was produced for was the TRS-80, the
Atari, and the Commodore PET.
-- Katy
--
Katy Mulvey Programmer/Analyst
ka...@mulvey.com Utilicom, Inc.
Rochester, NY USA
Arne Rohde
> Seems to me that the version of VisiCalc I was running in 80 or 81 on my
> TRS80s were Microsoft products. Or do I have it mixed up with ScripSit?
VisiCalc and Scripsit for the TRS-80 were both published by Radio Shack. I
don't know who converted the VisiCalc code from 6502 to Z-80 assembler, but
as far as I know the TRS-80 version was the only VisiCalc ever released for
Z-80 based computers.
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Arne Rohde Internet: ar...@pinn.nacjack.gen.nz or: ar...@kcbbs.gen.nz |
| Arne's Law of Debugging: If you can't find the bug you are looking for, |
| there are 3 possibilities: (1) You're looking for the wrong bug, |
| (2) You're looking in the wrong place, or (3) You're (temporarily) blind. |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Katy Mulvey
: In article <35...@mindlink.bc.ca> Linda_R...@mindlink.bc.ca writes:
: VisiCalc and Scripsit for the TRS-80 were both published by Radio Shack. I
: don't know who converted the VisiCalc code from 6502 to Z-80 assembler, but
: as far as I know the TRS-80 version was the only VisiCalc ever released for
: Z-80 based computers.
Again from "Programmers at Work" by Susan Lammers ISBN 1-55615-211-6:
(quoting Dan Bricklin):
We put it [Visicalc] on the TRS-80, which was a very important
machine; it was the number two computer from our viewpoint.
[The Apple II was the number one.] The programmer who did that
was Seth Steinberg...
For the Z80 version, Seth decided to do a literal line-by-line
translation of the 6502 code into the Z80 code. And since we
has a nice time-sharing system, he could invent all the tools
he wanted. So he wrote a printing program that would list side
by side the 6502 code and the Z80 code. We found out years later
that bugs in the 6502 code were also in the Z80 code. It was
that good a translation. That code lasted for a long time. It
becase the IBM version, with some mechanical translation and
some minor hand translation.
So anyone know what the time-sharing system was? All the interview
says is that they bought it on borrowed money -- Bricklin sold a
house, and used the money towards the down payment, and that it
was a "minicomputer."
Arne Rohde
> Again from "Programmers at Work" by Susan Lammers ISBN 1-55615-211-6:
> (quoting Dan Bricklin):
>
> We put it [Visicalc] on the TRS-80, which was a very important
> machine; it was the number two computer from our viewpoint.
> [The Apple II was the number one.] The programmer who did that
> was Seth Steinberg...
>
> For the Z80 version, Seth decided to do a literal line-by-line
> translation of the 6502 code into the Z80 code. And since we
> has a nice time-sharing system, he could invent all the tools
> he wanted. So he wrote a printing program that would list side
> by side the 6502 code and the Z80 code. We found out years later
> that bugs in the 6502 code were also in the Z80 code. It was
> that good a translation. That code lasted for a long time. It
> becase the IBM version, with some mechanical translation and
> some minor hand translation.
That could explain some of the peculiar turns of phrase I seem to recall from
a disassembled listing of the TRS-80 version. I've probably still got a copy
of it buried somewhere deep in the archives. In those days VisiCalc had no
function to allow editing of an entry, so formulas and values had to be
re-entered completely to make even the smallest change (increasing the
possibility of making more errors). I managed to add editing and a few other
features before the friend who was using it decided to use Multiplan instead.
BTW the TRS-80 version is the only version of VisiCalc I know of which was
sold without some form of copy protection. Some Model III versions had a
simple form of protection, but the Model I version was unprotected.
Bob_Fr...@frankston.com
but, having been told about this discussion, I'll attempt to answer some of
the questions.
Contrary to rumors, Dan and I are still alive. The assets of Software Arts
were sold to Lotus in 1985. We broke even. I won't rehash the VisiCorp suit
except to say that VisiCorp bet their company on Visi-On and lost.
Unfortunately, they had rights on VisiCalc which made it difficult for
Software Arts to be effective in spreadsheets.
VisiCalc did come out originally on the Apple ][ with 32K of RAM and a floppy
drive. The other 6502 implementations were for the Commodore PET and the
Atari 800. The Z-80 versions included the TRS-80, the HP-125 and the Sony
CP/M machine (betya never heard of that one). The IBM-PC version was based on
the Z-80 code.
Slate is now history. I'm working with Microsoft and Dan is working on some
new projects.
The time-sharing system was Primos on Prime Computers. Previously we had
bought time on Multics at MIT (and competed with Ada development during the
third shift).
Gerald
>So anyone know what the time-sharing system was? All the interview
>says is that they bought it on borrowed money -- Bricklin sold a
>house, and used the money towards the down payment, and that it
>was a "minicomputer."
I think it was a Prime running Primos that Software Arts used to port
VisiCalc to many platforms.
--
Gerald Ruderman
g...@vanward.ci.net
Edward Rice
KM> For the Z80 version, Seth decided to do a literal line-by-line
KM> translation of the 6502 code into the Z80 code. And since we has a
KM> nice time-sharing system, he could invent all the tools he wanted. So
KM> he wrote a printing program that would list side by side the 6502 code
KM> and the Z80 code. We found out years later that bugs in the 6502 code
KM> were also in the Z80 code. It was that good a translation. That code
KM> lasted for a long time. It becase the IBM version, with some
KM> mechanical translation and some minor hand translation.
KM>
KM> So anyone know what the time-sharing system was? All the interview
KM> says is that they bought it on borrowed money -- Bricklin sold a
KM> house, and used the money towards the down payment, and that it was a
KM> "minicomputer."
So far as I know, it was the Multics system at MIT. Which was, small-worldly,
on the orginal ARPAnet as MIT-Multics. (Or else Bob used MIT-DevMultics,
which was Honeywell's system. He might have had accounts on each.)
Gijs Bok
>Does anyone know if the VisiCalc source code even exists any more? I have
>this vision of a box of floppy disks, gathering dust in someone's garage.
>If the source code does exist, it seems like donating the material to a
>museum somewhere (perhaps the Boston Computer Museum) would be an excellent
>resting place for the package. I can't imagine that VisiCalc's source code
>has much commercial value these days, but it must have a good deal of
>historical value; after all, we're talking about a package that probably
>did more to jump-start the desktop computer business than any other
>software package I can think of.
In the earlier mentioned 'Programmers at work', (highly recommended BTW)
Dan Bricklin said that he first wrote a BASIC program on an Apple ][
that would do one screen worth of Visicalc. He first wanted to use
a mouse, but made it work with the 'paddles' instead. Since the paddles
were too slow from BASIC, he switched to the arrow keys/space bar way
of moving around.
He used this program as a demo and to try out new features later on.
In the book, there is a nice 'original command diagram for Visicalc from
Nov '78.'
This BASIC program most definitely has museum value to us. Mr. Bricklin,
are you on the net?
--
Gijs Bok (gi...@mbase97.hacktic.nl)
Listen to M-BASE music!
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Jim Frost
>A related question:
>On which computer was VisiCalc first programmed? Half the people say
>Apple ][, the other half claim IBM. I'd like to know.
Apple ][. VisiCalc preceeded PC by several years.
jim frost
ji...@centerline.com
Jim Frost
>the Sony CP/M machine (betya never heard of that one).
I used one for a little while. It had hard-sectored diskettes, if I
remember right. I don't remember anything else special about the
machine.
jim frost
ji...@centerline.com
Eric J. Korpela
>VisiCalc and Scripsit for the TRS-80 were both published by Radio Shack. I
>don't know who converted the VisiCalc code from 6502 to Z-80 assembler, but
>as far as I know the TRS-80 version was the only VisiCalc ever released for
>Z-80 based computers.
I could swear that I just saw Visicalc for the Apple ][ with Z-80 card
at a surplus store near here. If it was available for CP/M on Apple, I would
guess it was available for other CP/M systems as well.
Eric
--
Eric Korpela | New ERIC 2.0 offers increased
kor...@ssl.berkeley.edu | functionality with respect to
| workflow!
Dan Rosenbaum
: >Does anyone know if the VisiCalc source code even exists any more? I have
: >this vision of a box of floppy disks, gathering dust in someone's garage.
VisiCalc was bought a few years ago by Lotus, so the source is probably
sitting in a vault in Cambridge, MA somewhere.
--
Dan Rosenbaum | "The Difficult we can do immediately
dros...@panix.com | The Impossible takes a little longer."
7251...@compuserve.com |
591...@mcimail.com |
Jeff Zeitlin
::>at a surplus store near here. If it was available for CP/M on Apple, I w
I won't claim that VisiCalc _wasn't_ available for the A][ with
the Z-80 card; I've never seen it, which isn't proof. But I
could almost swear that I've seen it for Apple DOS (on the 6502,
with no add-on cards). Hold on a sec, I'll call the guy who
owned the bloody thing...
... yep, it was available for straight 6502. No recollection of
what version of Apple DOS it took, though...
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin jeff.z...@execnet.com
---
þ QMPro 1.51 þ NYC Driving #2: The pedestrians are daring you...
kje...@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
: I could swear that I just saw Visicalc for the Apple ][ with Z-80 card
: at a surplus store near here. If it was available for CP/M on Apple, I would
: guess it was available for other CP/M systems as well.
I have a version of Visicalc for my venerable Franklin ACE 1200 Z-80
co-processor. This one's called "ACECalc."
-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/SD5, Space Biomedical Research Institute
kje...@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368
"Developing new technology is what drives this country forward.
It raises our standard of living by creating the new industries
and new jobs of tomorrow. I believe America today is crying out
for organizations like NASA to step up to the challenge of
developing cutting-edge, dual-use technology that can both keep
America pushing outward into space and put Americans back to
work." -- Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator
Adam Justin Thornton
>EJK::>I could swear that I just saw Visicalc for the Apple ][ with Z-80 card
> ::>at a surplus store near here. If it was available for CP/M on Apple, I w
> ::>guess it was available for other CP/M systems as well.
>
> what version of Apple DOS it took, though...
3.3, for sure. There may have been a 3.2 version as well.
Adam
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ad...@rice.edu | These are not Rice's opinions. Nor are they those of IS,
the Honor Council, Tony Gorry, God, or Kibo. They're mine. Got it? Good.
"The object of life is to make sure you die a weird death."--Thomas Pynchon
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Ron Asbestos Dippold
>>EJK::>I could swear that I just saw Visicalc for the Apple ][ with Z-80 card
>3.3, for sure. There may have been a 3.2 version as well.
VisiCalc was out well after the 3.2 to 3.3 change, and I certainly
don't recall multiple versions. It would probably play havoc with
their disk numbering as well. But it's possible, I guess.
--
Diplomacy: The art of fishing tranquilly in troubled waters.
Bob Frankston
version of the operating system. It might have been 3.0 but I'm not
sure. It was later updated with a version that automatically worked on
13 and 16 sector systems. The original version required 32K. There was
a cassette based version but, thankfully, it never shipped.
There was no version for the CP/M card on the Apple. There was also a
version for the Apple /// for those with sufficiently long memories.
Aaron G Goldstein
Happened to Vi.. by Bob Fran...@world.std.
I used to have an Apple ///, but, at the time, I didn't even know
what a spreadsheet was, really - although I knew I could get one for
my machine (which put speadsheets in the minority there).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bread mold - My opinions may have changed, but the fact that I am correct
has not. (Not sure who said that first...)
Enjoy life to its fullest!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------