Too much for one lifetime? :-)

[gareth evans]

This year is 50 years since I first cut my teeth on
assembler programming on a 16kb PDP11-20, but I can
today purchase microprocessors with an equal or better
capability for only a few £££ or $$$.

Are there any other technologies that have had comparable
periods of accelerated development?

Any of the other professionals who qualified at the same time
as we engineers have only had to deal with the same characteristics
as they dealt with 50 years ago with very minor changes, be they
doctors or lawyers.

Pity the poor electronic engineer!

[A.T. Murray]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 12:22:06 PM UTC-8, gareth evans wrote:
> [...]

> Are there any other technologies that have had comparable
> periods of accelerated development?
>

> Pity the poor electronic engineer!

Artificial Intelligence (AI) is one technology recently blossoming with AI Minds thinking first in English, then in German, then Russian, and most recently in ancient Latin.

https://ai.neocities.org/LaThink.html -- how an AI Mind thinks in ancient Latin.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 20:21:57 +0000
gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> This year is 50 years since I first cut my teeth on
> assembler programming on a 16kb PDP11-20, but I can
> today purchase microprocessors with an equal or better
> capability for only a few £££ or $$$.
>
> Are there any other technologies that have had comparable
> periods of accelerated development?

Flight! The Wright brothers got Kittyhawk off the ground in 1903,
by 1953 we were seeing the first jet airliners (the 707 was only a year
later) and we were only four years short of the first satellite launch.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

[bert]

On Wednesday, 13 January 2021 at 21:00:06 UTC, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 20:21:57 +0000
> gareth evans <hea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > This year is 50 years since I first cut my teeth on
> > assembler programming on a 16kb PDP11-20, but I can
> > today purchase microprocessors with an equal or better
> > capability for only a few £££ or $$$.
> >
> > Are there any other technologies that have had comparable
> > periods of accelerated development?
> Flight! The Wright brothers got Kittyhawk off the ground in 1903,
> by 1953 we were seeing the first jet airliners (the 707 was only a year
> later) and we were only four years short of the first satellite launch.

Maybe the 50 years (plus 1 month) from Alcock and Brown to
Armstrong and Aldrin cover a bigger technological advance.

[gareth evans]

On 13/01/2021 20:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 20:21:57 +0000
> gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> This year is 50 years since I first cut my teeth on
>> assembler programming on a 16kb PDP11-20, but I can
>> today purchase microprocessors with an equal or better
>> capability for only a few £££ or $$$.
>>
>> Are there any other technologies that have had comparable
>> periods of accelerated development?
>
> Flight! The Wright brothers got Kittyhawk off the ground in 1903,
> by 1953 we were seeing the first jet airliners (the 707 was only a year
> later) and we were only four years short of the first satellite launch.
>

... and of course my original interest in the previous 50 years
from 1920, radio coming from crystal sets to portable transistor
receivers. (But electronics again!)

[gareth evans]

Sorry, but having posed the question has brought to mind that for
millennia, humanity existed with wood, stone and very little metal,
and any possessions would be valued and keppt for generations, but the
technologies of the past nearly 200 years have produced great waste
in that a further development results in abandonment and scrapping
of previous approaches.

What of humanity in the next 200, 2000, or 200,000 years when petroleum
and coal are long exhausted. Are we too much concerned with our
comforts of today?

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

Maybe, it was pretty fast from 1903 to some time in the 1970s and
then slowed down quite a bit, short of the hypersonic planes that some were
predicting a little earlier.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 22:18:43 +0000
gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Sorry, but having posed the question has brought to mind that for
> millennia, humanity existed with wood, stone and very little metal,

> and any possessions would be valued and kept for generations, but the

Also in very small numbers. The world population hit a billion for
the first time 200 years ago.

[Vir Campestris]

On 13/01/2021 21:16, bert wrote:

> Maybe the 50 years (plus 1 month) from Alcock and Brown to
> Armstrong and Aldrin cover a bigger technological advance.

My grandfather was born before the Wright brother's flight, and was in
the RFC in WW1. By the time he died we had men on the moon, and he'd
been on Concorde.

What went wrong? I never dreamed when I was a child that I would see the
end of supersonic transport, and the death of the last man who ever
walked on the moon. It can't be far away now, they're all at least 85.

I'm glad I made my career in computers...

Andy

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 14:56:23 +0000
Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> What went wrong?

> I never dreamed when I was a child that I would see thel end of
> supersonic transport,

Economics happened to that - for now at least. Musk seems to think
he can make hypersonic sub-orbital transport pay.

> and the death of the last man who ever
> walked on the moon. It can't be far away now, they're all at least 85.

Yeah, that is at least in part because nobody new why they went
there in the first place, Von Braun's plans for going into space and to the
planets sensibly were dropped in favour of "Whatever it takes get someone
to the moon and back before the commies do".

[Dave Garland]

On 1/13/2021 4:18 PM, gareth evans wrote:

> What of humanity in the next 200, 2000, or 200,000 years when petroleum
> and coal are long exhausted. Are we too much concerned with our
> comforts of today?
>

Of course. Though whatever one's view on human resource use may be,
projecting the question another 200,000 years is wildly optimistic.
Unless one subscribes to the rule of thumb that to predict how long
something ongoing will continue, you take however long it has lasted
already and double that.

[Scott Lurndal]

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 14:56:23 +0000
>Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> What went wrong?
>
>> I never dreamed when I was a child that I would see thel end of
>> supersonic transport,
>
> Economics happened to that - for now at least. Musk seems to think
>he can make hypersonic sub-orbital transport pay.

And there are three companies currently developing low-boom supersonic
transport aircraft, two for bizjets and one for regular passenger
service.

Boom Supersonic "Overture". First flight scheduled for 2023. 55 pax, mach 2.2
Aerion Supersonic "AS2". First flight 2023, mach 1.4, 12 pax.
Spike Aerospace "S-512". First flight 2023, mach 1.6, 12-18 pax.

[Scott Lurndal]

Musings from a physicist who normally bounces lasers off the moon:

https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/10/the-energy-trap/
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/11/peak-oil-perspective/
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/09/discovering-limits-to-growth/

https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/12/the-future-needs-an-attitude-adjustment/

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 17:12:27 GMT
sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
> >On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 14:56:23 +0000
> >Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> What went wrong?
> >
> >> I never dreamed when I was a child that I would see thel end of
> >> supersonic transport,
> >
> > Economics happened to that - for now at least. Musk seems to
> > think
> >he can make hypersonic sub-orbital transport pay.
>
> And there are three companies currently developing low-boom supersonic
> transport aircraft, two for bizjets and one for regular passenger
> service.

I knew of one, not the other two. I wonder how they'll pan out
commercially.

[J. Clarke]

Amen.
>
>Andy

[Scott Lurndal]

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 17:12:27 GMT
>sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>> >On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 14:56:23 +0000
>> >Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> What went wrong?
>> >
>> >> I never dreamed when I was a child that I would see thel end of
>> >> supersonic transport,
>> >
>> > Economics happened to that - for now at least. Musk seems to
>> > think
>> >he can make hypersonic sub-orbital transport pay.
>>
>> And there are three companies currently developing low-boom supersonic
>> transport aircraft, two for bizjets and one for regular passenger
>> service.
>
> I knew of one, not the other two. I wonder how they'll pan out
>commercially.

NASA is currently doing work to characterize low-boom effects on communities.

[Radey Shouman]

In more or less the same spirit, an online book on what is possible with
sustainable energy:

https://www.withouthotair.com

[Andreas Kohlbach]

On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 15:42:22 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
> On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 14:56:23 +0000
> Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> and the death of the last man who ever
>> walked on the moon. It can't be far away now, they're all at least 85.
>
> Yeah, that is at least in part because nobody new why they went
> there in the first place,

Because Kennedy said so?

> Von Braun's plans for going into space and to the planets sensibly were
> dropped in favour of "Whatever it takes get someone to the moon and
> back before the commies do".

The arms race was the real deal, covered by the space race. Kind of "If
we can send a man on the moon in a rocket, we can do the same with a
nuclear tipped warhead directed into any other country.

The commies just followed the US' lead. But imagine what would had
happened if the Russians, little before July 1969, sent a manned probe to
Mars, which they had developed in all secrecy.

May be Kennedy already thought to outperform the Russians financially to
drive them bankrupt faster, like Reagan successfully did more than a
decade later, ending the USSR in 1991...
--
Andreas

PGP fingerprint 952B0A9F12C2FD6C9F7E68DAA9C2EA89D1A370E0

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

I'm glad computers have held out as an expanding business for this
much of my career, and that I switched from hardware to software very early.

[Vir Campestris]

On 14/01/2021 17:12, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> And there are three companies currently developing low-boom supersonic
> transport aircraft, two for bizjets and one for regular passenger
> service.

We had a boom the other day. A bizjet inbound from Germany to London had
its transponder off and didn't respond to signals. They scrambled the
RAF with all dispatch... quite a little thing a Eurofighter is, and it
rattled our windows 20 miles off the flightpath.

Andy

[Mike Spencer]

J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 14:56:23 +0000, Vir Campestris
> <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 13/01/2021 21:16, bert wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe the 50 years (plus 1 month) from Alcock and Brown to
>>> Armstrong and Aldrin cover a bigger technological advance.
>>
>> My grandfather was born before the Wright brother's flight, and was
>> in the RFC in WW1. By the time he died we had men on the moon, and
>> he'd been on Concorde.

My father lived through the same era. He was landed in France hours
after the armistice so missed WW I combat and he was never on a plane,
let alone the Concorde. He was, after WW I, an extra in silent films
and worked on building the Rose Bowl. He remaind amazed at the
technological advances in his lifetime.

>> What went wrong? I never dreamed when I was a child that I would
>> see the end of supersonic transport, and the death of the last man
>> who ever walked on the moon. It can't be far away now, they're all
>> at least 85.
>>
>> I'm glad I made my career in computers...
>
> Amen.

And I'm glad that, after a brief run at biochemistry, I made my career
in blacksmithing. (Not farriery, mind you, but blacksmithing.) I
took on computers after age 45 as an avocational pursuit.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

[J. Clarke]

And then there is SpaceX working on a more-boom hypersonic craft. Get
you from New York to Tokyo in half an hour but there won't be a window
left at either end.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 14 Jan 2021 18:01:27 -0400

Mike Spencer <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

> (Not farriery, mind you, but blacksmithing.)

Wise indeed, whenever I see a farrier with a steel shod horses foot
resting on his thigh I can't help thinking of how easily a sharp edge
could rip through his femoral artery or a sharp kick through his testicles.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 18:54:39 -0500
J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> And then there is SpaceX working on a more-boom hypersonic craft. Get
> you from New York to Tokyo in half an hour but there won't be a window
> left at either end.

IIRC the plan is to have them takeoff and land some distance off
shore and ferry people to and from land. So here's what that half hour
looks like:

two hours to check in,
thirty minutes to spaceport,
thirty minutes boarding,
thirty minutes getting ready and waiting on a slot,
thirty minutes airborne,
thirty minutes to mainland,
two hours in immigration,
thirty minutes in baggage control

Seven hours later and you've missed the last train and there's no
taxis on the rank. The future looks a lot like the present.

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2021-01-15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 18:54:39 -0500
> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And then there is SpaceX working on a more-boom hypersonic craft. Get
>> you from New York to Tokyo in half an hour but there won't be a window
>> left at either end.
>
> IIRC the plan is to have them takeoff and land some distance off
> shore and ferry people to and from land. So here's what that half hour
> looks like:
>
> two hours to check in,
> thirty minutes to spaceport,
> thirty minutes boarding,
> thirty minutes getting ready and waiting on a slot,
> thirty minutes airborne,
> thirty minutes to mainland,
> two hours in immigration,
> thirty minutes in baggage control
>
> Seven hours later and you've missed the last train and there's no
> taxis on the rank. The future looks a lot like the present.

'Twas ever thus. B.C. spent $270 mil... oops, $450 million on their
infamous Fast Cat ferries, promising to slash the time it took to get
to and from Vancouver Island. As far as I know, the only person who
liked them was a resident of Gabriola Island who would get out his
surfboard every time one went by. They kicked up such a wake that
they had to severly limit their speed during a good part of the trip,
so they succeeded in shortening a 1:45 trip by 10 minutes. And you
couldn't stay in your car but had to go up to a cramped upper deck,
where you could watch your progress on a screen - or might have, if
the map display wasn't replaced by ads as soon as you left port.
And the only way they could get any speed at all was to redline
the engines - and when the inevitable breakdowns occurred, they
discovered that the only way to remove the engines for overhaul
was to cut a hole in the hull. They were eventually removed from
service (to the great relief of all), and sat in drydock as an
embarrassing display until they were finally sold off for 10 cents
on the dollar.

It all sounds like an Eric Idle skit. "I'm tired of being treated
like a sheep..."

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

[J. Clarke]

On 15 Jan 2021 01:00:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

If I was a zillionaire I would have bought one of them things and made
a yacht out of it at that price.

Maybe I'm nuts but I like Incat ferries. One of them holds the
transatlantic record. They spent a day in the middle of the ocean
searching for a crashed airplane and _still_ broke the previous
record.

[Mike Spencer]

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:

> On 14 Jan 2021 18:01:27 -0400
> Mike Spencer <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> (Not farriery, mind you, but blacksmithing.)
>
> Wise indeed, whenever I see a farrier with a steel shod horses foot
> resting on his thigh I can't help thinking of how easily a sharp
> edge could rip through his femoral artery or a sharp kick through
> his testicles.

There is that brief moment, after each rear shoe nail is driven home
but before the 1/2" to 1-1/2" projecting point has been snagged in
the hammer claw and twisted off, when the horse holds your femoral
artery in, so to speak, the palm of its hand, nifty leather apron
notwithstanding. Six or eight such moments for each rear foot.

I put front shoes on my own horse once. I didn't lame the horse and
the shoes stayed on but after that I hired a farrier, not as easy as
it may sound as most farriers like to shoe riding horses and a big
draught animal is, again so to speak, an horse of a differnt choler.

[maus]

On 2021-01-14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 14 Jan 2021 18:01:27 -0400
> Mike Spencer <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> (Not farriery, mind you, but blacksmithing.)
>
> Wise indeed, whenever I see a farrier with a steel shod horses foot
> resting on his thigh I can't help thinking of how easily a sharp edge
> could rip through his femoral artery or a sharp kick through his testicles.
>
>

Yes, farriery is dangerous, which is why it is more an art than a
science. Sue Doyle was killed by a kick that went over a closed stable
door.


--
grey...@mail.com

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 17 Jan 2021 11:00:17 GMT

maus <ma...@dmaus.org> wrote:

> Yes, farriery is dangerous, which is why it is more an art than a
> science. Sue Doyle was killed by a kick that went over a closed stable
> door.

Having seen a young woman thrown through a well built post and rail
fence, shattering her pelvis and both rails, I'd say through would have
been just as likely as over - not that it would make much difference to her.

Everything to do with horses is dangerous, I can't say I'm unhappy
that my daughter has given up her (very feasible) ambitions as an event
rider after getting a taste of the professional eventing world.

[gareth evans]

On 17/01/2021 11:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> Everything to do with horses is dangerous, I can't say I'm unhappy
> that my daughter has given up her (very feasible) ambitions as an event
> rider after getting a taste of the professional eventing world.
>

Will she have competed down here in Wiltshire where we are
BE-registered X-country jump judges?

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

No, we're in Ireland.

[maus]

On 2021-01-17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 17 Jan 2021 11:00:17 GMT
> maus <ma...@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> Yes, farriery is dangerous, which is why it is more an art than a
>> science. Sue Doyle was killed by a kick that went over a closed stable
>> door.
>
> Having seen a young woman thrown through a well built post and rail
> fence, shattering her pelvis and both rails, I'd say through would have
> been just as likely as over - not that it would make much difference to her.
>
> Everything to do with horses is dangerous, I can't say I'm unhappy
> that my daughter has given up her (very feasible) ambitions as an event
> rider after getting a taste of the professional eventing world.
>

Up there with cycling as if you dont like pain, dont compete

Real farriers can keep essencially very stupid racehorses calm while they
work.


--
grey...@mail.com

[gareth evans]

On 17/01/2021 19:10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 17:44:23 +0000
> gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 17/01/2021 11:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> Everything to do with horses is dangerous, I can't say I'm
>>> unhappy that my daughter has given up her (very feasible) ambitions as
>>> an event rider after getting a taste of the professional eventing world.
>>>
>>
>> Will she have competed down here in Wiltshire where we are
>> BE-registered X-country jump judges?
>
> No, we're in Ireland.
>

Bad luck with that, a country still largely controlled by the
mores of make-believe (AKA religion) much as is Iran today.

[Elliott Roper]

On 18 Jan 2021 at 11:42:01 GMT, "gareth evans" <headst...@yahoo.com>

wrote:

> On 17/01/2021 19:10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 17:44:23 +0000
>> gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 17/01/2021 11:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>
>>>> Everything to do with horses is dangerous, I can't say I'm
>>>> unhappy that my daughter has given up her (very feasible) ambitions as
>>>> an event rider after getting a taste of the professional eventing world.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Will she have competed down here in Wiltshire where we are
>>> BE-registered X-country jump judges?
>>
>> No, we're in Ireland.
>>
>
> Bad luck with that, a country still largely controlled by the
> mores of make-believe (AKA religion) much as is Iran today.

Have you been to Ireland recently? You would be surprised at the liberal
forward looking place it now is.
--
To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 11:42:01 +0000
gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Bad luck with that, a country still largely controlled by the
> mores of make-believe (AKA religion) much as is Iran today.

Your information is somewhat out of date.

[Andy Leighton]

On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 12:12:54 +0000,
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 11:42:01 +0000
> gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Bad luck with that, a country still largely controlled by the
>> mores of make-believe (AKA religion) much as is Iran today.
>
> Your information is somewhat out of date.

Still can't get a beer before 1230 on Sunday though :-(

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams

[J. Clarke]

On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 12:29:27 +0000 (UTC), Elliott Roper
<nos...@yrl.co.uk> wrote:

>On 18 Jan 2021 at 11:42:01 GMT, "gareth evans" <headst...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>> On 17/01/2021 19:10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 17:44:23 +0000
>>> gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 17/01/2021 11:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Everything to do with horses is dangerous, I can't say I'm
>>>>> unhappy that my daughter has given up her (very feasible) ambitions as
>>>>> an event rider after getting a taste of the professional eventing world.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Will she have competed down here in Wiltshire where we are
>>>> BE-registered X-country jump judges?
>>>
>>> No, we're in Ireland.
>>>
>>
>> Bad luck with that, a country still largely controlled by the
>> mores of make-believe (AKA religion) much as is Iran today.
>
>
>Have you been to Ireland recently? You would be surprised at the liberal
>forward looking place it now is.

It is amazing how much people think they know about living conditions
in places they have never been.

[gareth evans]

On 18/01/2021 12:12, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 11:42:01 +0000
> gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Bad luck with that, a country still largely controlled by the
>> mores of make-believe (AKA religion) much as is Iran today.
>
> Your information is somewhat out of date.
>

I immediately googled for abortion in Ireland to prove you
wrong, but I'm not that far out of date! :-)

[maus]

Photos of priests here now are usually ones being accompanied by police
into court.


--
grey...@mail.com

[maus]

On 2021-01-18, Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 12:12:54 +0000,
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 11:42:01 +0000
>> gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bad luck with that, a country still largely controlled by the
>>> mores of make-believe (AKA religion) much as is Iran today.
>>
>> Your information is somewhat out of date.
>
> Still can't get a beer before 1230 on Sunday though :-(
>

Tap on the window, say ``Mick sent me''



--
grey...@mail.com

[maus]

If a voice asks who Mick is, wave vaguely in the distance and say,
``Ayy, you know Mick.'' If That fails, try `Sam' and get everone in the
pub already a Bushmills.


--
grey...@mail.com

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

It was some years^w decades back now; but a FOAF and his cycling buddies
were thirsty come 12pm (madeup) (it was summer & hot!), so stopped at a
Victuallers. The proprietor said that they didn't open for another 20
minutes (madeup). My informant consulted the map and decided to await the
hour; whereuopn the landlord, said "Would like a drink while you're
waiting?"



--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[maus]

As the original writer mentioned Iran, we should quote roughly


A BOOK of Verses underneath the Bough,
A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread—and Thou
Beside me singing in the Wilderness—
O, Wilderness were Paradise enow!


--
grey...@mail.com

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2021-01-19, maus <ma...@dmaus.org> wrote:

Man: I'm going to call the police.
Woman: Shouldn't you call the Church?
Son: Call the Church police.
Man: ...all right. [shouts] The Church police!
[Enter two policemen with ecclesiastical accoutrements.]
-- Monty Python

Ireland looked pretty laid-back when we were there in 2017...

[Andy Leighton]

Oh I am sure that the grand tradition of the lock-in (and early opening)
is alive and well in a lot of places. However when I was recently there on
a Sunday it was part of a SF convention in the CCD, and the previous
times we were attending a con in a hotel.

[maus]

On 2021-01-19, Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
> On 19 Jan 2021 10:07:06 GMT, maus <ma...@dmaus.org> wrote:
>> On 2021-01-18, Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 12:12:54 +0000,
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 11:42:01 +0000
>>>> gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bad luck with that, a country still largely controlled by the
>>>>> mores of make-believe (AKA religion) much as is Iran today.
>>>>
>>>> Your information is somewhat out of date.
>>>
>>> Still can't get a beer before 1230 on Sunday though :-(
>>>
>>
>> Tap on the window, say ``Mick sent me''
>
> Oh I am sure that the grand tradition of the lock-in (and early opening)
> is alive and well in a lot of places. However when I was recently there on
> a Sunday it was part of a SF convention in the CCD, and the previous
> times we were attending a con in a hotel.
>
>

Must have been fun, were many at both events?..


Happy inaugeration day to USAians


--
grey...@mail.com

[Andy Leighton]

For Worldcon about 6500, and it was the same weekend as the Hurling final
in 2019. The smaller cons were a lot smaller and were mainly Irish
fans, with a chunk from the UK and a few from Europe.

All a lot of fun and I have seen just how much Ireland (or at least in
and around the greater Dublin area) has changed over the past decade or
two.

[maus]

On 2021-01-20, Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
> For Worldcon about 6500, and it was the same weekend as the Hurling final
> in 2019. The smaller cons were a lot smaller and were mainly Irish
> fans, with a chunk from the UK and a few from Europe.
>
> All a lot of fun and I have seen just how much Ireland (or at least in
> and around the greater Dublin area) has changed over the past decade or
> two.
>
>

Incredible change in Dublin, I attend hospital in Tallagh once a week,
the whole area is covered with office buildings intended for US tec
firms who want Ireland as their base in the EU.(english speaking, but
English is becoming second lang in the EU anyway).

Outside Dublen, the stream of life contonues as ever.


--
grey...@mail.com

[Peter Flass]

Has the EU solved the “official language” problem yet? I read somewhere
that Gaelic is the official language of Ireland ( maybe co-equal with
English?) and with BREXIT that left no EU member whose official language
was English, so it was no longer an official language of the EU.

--
Pete

[maus]

Gaelic is the First Language of Ireland.

In one lawcase yonks ago, our case was failing, and I asked our
barrister if the Irish version of the law could be `consulted'.

He almst paled and said, ``Dont even think of that,''

I like English, its very common, even in India.

--
grey...@mail.com

[Charlie Gibbs]

Still, though, I loved the sound of the language on the trains
in the recorded announcements of such things as the upcoming stop.
Even mundane phrases like "please keep your feet off the seats"
sounded lovely in that wonderful speaking voice they used.

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2021-01-23, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
[Irish Gaelic]

> Still, though, I loved the sound of the language on the trains
> in the recorded announcements of such things as the upcoming stop.
> Even mundane phrases like "please keep your feet off the seats"
> sounded lovely in that wonderful speaking voice they used.

In London:

Mind the gap.

In Stockholm:

Tänk på avståndet mellan vagn och plattform när du stiger av.
(appx: Think of the distance between car and platform when you step
off.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiUrZQm7cT4

Ironically, Swedish is usually pretty terse, but certainlly not in this
case.

Niklas
--
My main argument against autonomous probes is what alien cultures
would think us if the got hold of a deep-space probe running Windows 7.
Their anthropologists might enjoy the paradox of a civilisation
being able to get off the planet with such software. -- Bernd Felsche

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 23 Jan 2021 20:24:18 GMT

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> Still, though, I loved the sound of the language on the trains
> in the recorded announcements of such things as the upcoming stop.
> Even mundane phrases like "please keep your feet off the seats"
> sounded lovely in that wonderful speaking voice they used.

Hmm The Bus Eireann regular "Stand clear, luggage doors operatin'"
is less than lovely.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 22:30:28 -0500
Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> I heard that if you want to work in an office at Nestle in Switzerland
> speaking any of the four Swiss languages (German, French, Italian and
> Romansh, sorted by numbers of speakers) won't help. You need to speak
> English.

Similarly if you want a bar,hotel,restaurant ... job in central
Amsterdam then Dutch is useless but English is essential and other European
languages a bonus.

[Scott Lurndal]

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote

>And German is much harder to learn than English, if you
>are from Spain, France, Italy or any other country with its own proper
>language.

Really? English is a very irregular language, while Deutsch is
quite regular (with the odd exception here and there) and rather logical.

[Thomas Koenig]

Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> schrieb:

One thing that English is really terrible at is pronounciation.

There is only a very loose correlation between what is written down
and how it is pronounced. You can't really tell without knowing.

"ughoti" is the canonical example, of course.

(Guvf zrnaf "svfu". "htu" nf va "gbhtu", "b" nf va "jbzra", naq
"gv nf va "angvba".)

[John Levine]

In article <run0g2$uvk$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,

Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
>Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> schrieb:
>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>>On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote
>>
>>>And German is much harder to learn than English, if you
>>>are from Spain, France, Italy or any other country with its own proper
>>>language.
>>
>> Really? English is a very irregular language, while Deutsch is
>> quite regular (with the odd exception here and there) and rather logical.

The spelling is delightful but the genders and cases more than make up
for it. Men and boys are masculine, women are feminine, but girls are
neuter.

--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

[Thomas Koenig]

John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> schrieb:

> In article <run0g2$uvk$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
> Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> schrieb:
>>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>>>On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote
>>>
>>>>And German is much harder to learn than English, if you
>>>>are from Spain, France, Italy or any other country with its own proper
>>>>language.
>>>
>>> Really? English is a very irregular language, while Deutsch is
>>> quite regular (with the odd exception here and there) and rather logical.
>
> The spelling is delightful but the genders and cases more than make up
> for it. Men and boys are masculine, women are feminine, but girls are
> neuter.

Mark Twain wrote a delightful piece about that.

(The neuter part comes from the diminutive "-chen", as in "Mädchen",
"girl").

[gareth evans]

Try learning Welsh (as I am currently having inherited a library
of books) with 10 different ways of getting the plural of nouns,
and the first letter mutating to something different depending
on the context!

[Scott Lurndal]

John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> writes:
>In article <run0g2$uvk$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> schrieb:
>>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>>>On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote
>>>
>>>>And German is much harder to learn than English, if you
>>>>are from Spain, France, Italy or any other country with its own proper
>>>>language.
>>>
>>> Really? English is a very irregular language, while Deutsch is
>>> quite regular (with the odd exception here and there) and rather logical.
>
>The spelling is delightful but the genders and cases more than make up
>for it. Men and boys are masculine, women are feminine, but girls are
>neuter.

Grammatical case (Nominative, Accusative, Genetive, Dative, etc) is also difficult
for the typically american english speaker.

Granted, gender is a problem for english speakers learning Deutsch, but not for
most other latin languages where gender (and more importantly case)
are significant.

[Joacim Melin]

SL> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote

>>And German is much harder to learn than English, if you >>are from Spain, France, Italy or any other country with its own proper >>language.

SL> Really? English is a very irregular language, while Deutsch is
SL> quite regular (with the odd exception here and there) and rather logical.

German with it's grammar is a nightmare to learn. I tried back in school. English is also more accessible through TV and movies so you pick up
way more that way.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 18:30:51 -0000 (UTC)
John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:

> The spelling is delightful but the genders and cases more than make up
> for it. Men and boys are masculine, women are feminine, but girls are
> neuter.

Coincidence bites again ? It is less than 24 hours since I was
reading the bit in Artifact where a character is complaining about that
very aspect of the German language.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 17:52:02 -0000 (UTC)
Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:

> One thing that English is really terrible at is pronounciation.

Ho hum, time for this again, try to read The Chaos aloud:

http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html.

[Dennis Boone]

> http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html.

LALR(howmany!?)

De

[Peter Flass]

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>> Has the EU solved the “official language” problem yet? I read somewhere
>> that Gaelic is the official language of Ireland ( maybe co-equal with
>> English?) and with BREXIT that left no EU member whose official language
>> was English, so it was no longer an official language of the EU.
>

> There is no language problem in the EU. English is and was the language
> of business and IT, and that is unlikely to change.

>
> I heard that if you want to work in an office at Nestle in Switzerland
> speaking any of the four Swiss languages (German, French, Italian and
> Romansh, sorted by numbers of speakers) won't help. You need to speak
> English.
>

> But if you want to have a "new official language" in the EU you might
> have to look at German.

Somewhere I read that official EU documents have to be published in the
official language of each of the member states. If no country has English
as its official language then English is no longer required.


> German speakers account for the largest group
> inside Europe. But that won't happen either. Everybody seems to be happy
> with English now. And German is much harder to learn than English, if you

> are from Spain, France, Italy or any other country with its own proper
> language.

Every country is jealous of its own language. The French would probably
never accept German, and vise-versa. I would think English is a much
harder language than German because of its quixotic spelling and
pronunciation. Its only advantage is its ubiquity, so everyone has some
exposure to it. German is pronounced as it’s spelled.

>
> I don't think anybody wants to learn German or Gaelic in Europe.

I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that
it’s the most widely-spoken language. I’d love to learn Gaelic, among
others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.

--
Pete

[Charlie Gibbs]

What drove me nuts is the way adjectives take endings which vary
depending on gender, number, and case. On the other hand, it
was nice to have no doubts as to how to pronounce "ei" or "ie".

[John Levine]

In article <202855318.633307912.6027...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> But if you want to have a "new official language" in the EU you might
>> have to look at German.
>
>Somewhere I read that official EU documents have to be published in the
>official language of each of the member states. If no country has English
>as its official language then English is no longer required.

I think you have made a lot of Irish people sad.

>> I don't think anybody wants to learn German or Gaelic in Europe.

Lots of people want to learn German if they plan to live or work in
Germany or Austria or Switzerland. While most German speakers speak at
least some English, you're at a disadvantage if you have to ask people
to switch. My German is pretty bad, but I found that people in Germany
appreciated and were sometimes amused by my efforts to speak their
language.

On the other hand, everyone in Ireland and Scotland now speaks
English. While there are cultural and political reasons one might
learn Irish or Gaelic, you don't need it to communicate.

I read somewhere that the EU has chronic problems finding translators
between their minor languages, e.g. between Danish and Greek. They
don't want to fall back to double translation with a a major language
in between.

[John Levine]

In article <87v9bkg...@usenet.ankman.de>,
Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>English has (for my knowledge) only one case.

It has two and a half.

The two are nominative (the pig) and possessive (the pig's.) The
half is objective which only applies to four pronouns, I/me, he/him, she/her, they/them.
The other two pronouns have the same objective form it/it, you/you.

Possessive case is extremely regular other than the six pronouns.

We overcompensate with a vast number of verb forms and irregular verbs ("He would have been thought foolish.")

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2021-01-26, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> I would think English is a much harder language than German because of
>> its quixotic spelling and pronunciation.
>

> I guess you're wrong here.
>
> Anyone here not a native English speaker, who learned English and German,
> can tell what was harder to learn?

I've definitely managed to learn English much more thoroughly than
German, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. English is ubiquitous,
as Peter touched upon.

I started using computers at an early age, and while translated software
existed even back then, you couldn't really rely on it existing, so
English was a vital skill. Later I started reading books in English as
well, and of course, Sweden doesn't dub anything intended for an
audience old enough to read.

Basically I got about the maximum amount of immersion possible without
living in an English-speaking country.

I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
to speed on that language.

>> I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that
>> it’s the most widely-spoken language. I’d love to learn Gaelic, among
>> others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.
>

> German most widely spoken? I assume that is either Chinese (well they
> have different flavors), Hindu (they also have) or Spanish. Almost all
> countries of South America (Brazil might be one of the few exceptions)
> have Spanish as official language.

I took it to mean most widely spoken in Europe.

Niklas
--
Hungarian Notation is the tactical nuclear weapon of source code obfuscation
techniques.
-- Roedy Green

[J. Clarke]

I'm told that India has many languages--only about 40% of the
population are native speakers of Hindi. The most spoken language in
the world is English, narrowly edging out Mandarin, with Hindi third
and Spanish fourth. OTOH, Mandarin has the largest number of native
speakers, followed by Spanish, English, and Hindi in that order.

[maus]

On 2021-01-25, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> German speakers account for the largest group
>> inside Europe. But that won't happen either. Everybody seems to be happy
>> with English now. And German is much harder to learn than English, if you
>> are from Spain, France, Italy or any other country with its own proper
>> language.
>
> Every country is jealous of its own language. The French would probably
> never accept German, and vise-versa. I would think English is a much
> harder language than German because of its quixotic spelling and
> pronunciation. Its only advantage is its ubiquity, so everyone has some
> exposure to it. German is pronounced as it’s spelled.
>
>>
>> I don't think anybody wants to learn German or Gaelic in Europe.
>
> I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that
> it’s the most widely-spoken language. I’d love to learn Gaelic, among
> others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.
>

I stand corrected on my earlier post, English and Gaelic are joint
official languages of the Irish Republic. Lallans(sp) is, AFAIK,
recognized as a language in Northern Ireland.

Again, I like English, noboody, AFAIK, official body to tell people how
to pronounce or spell. Old Gaelic placenames tell a more honest
descripion than the newer English ones, I think thhe original name for
Sundrive Road was something like `gloomy lane'.

AFAIK, without checking, back in the time when the Nation was being formed,
there was a suggestion that german be adopted as the offical lannguage
of the US.

--
grey...@mail.com

[maus]

On 2021-01-26, John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <202855318.633307912.6027...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> But if you want to have a "new official language" in the EU you might
>>> have to look at German.
>>
>>Somewhere I read that official EU documents have to be published in the
>>official language of each of the member states. If no country has English
>>as its official language then English is no longer required.
>
> I think you have made a lot of Irish people sad.
>

And a great many happy. Irish people only start liking Gaelic when
they emigrate. Otherwise it is a PITA.

>
>>> I don't think anybody wants to learn German or Gaelic in Europe.
>
> Lots of people want to learn German if they plan to live or work in
> Germany or Austria or Switzerland.
>

In the latter two, local variants are common.

>
>
> While most German speakers speak at
> least some English, you're at a disadvantage if you have to ask people
> to switch. My German is pretty bad, but I found that people in Germany
> appreciated and were sometimes amused by my efforts to speak their
> language.

``Why are you strangling my language?''

>
>
> On the other hand, everyone in Ireland and Scotland now speaks
> English. While there are cultural and political reasons one might
> learn Irish or Gaelic, you don't need it to communicate.
>
> I read somewhere that the EU has chronic problems finding translators
> between their minor languages, e.g. between Danish and Greek. They
> don't want to fall back to double translation with a a major language
> in between.
>

Politics rears its ugly head. During the 30s, there was a movement to
replace English words with German in Germany `fernseher'?. Up North,
speaking Gaelic will identify one as a Republican, whereas speaking
Welsh in Wales does not send any message.

--
grey...@mail.com

[maus]

On 2021-01-26, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 07:00:43 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 22:30:28 -0500
>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I heard that if you want to work in an office at Nestle in Switzerland
>>> speaking any of the four Swiss languages (German, French, Italian and
>>> Romansh, sorted by numbers of speakers) won't help. You need to speak
>>> English.
>>
>> Similarly if you want a bar,hotel,restaurant ... job in central
>> Amsterdam then Dutch is useless but English is essential and other European
>> languages a bonus.
>

> 2003 I was one day in Luxembourg City. As German, coming from France (I
> could had walked but took the train :-D) I went to a bar for a drink. I
> think I was addresses in French so I tried. But either it was too loud or
> my too bad (probably latter) they switched to English. Somehow I still
> didn't manage to order a beer there which was advertised. I asked
> something in English. They must have noticed my accent and switched to
> German. That worked out. But how embarrassing for me. ;-}
>
> Anyway, suppose Dutch was also on their repertoire. They were truly
> quad... (what comes after trilingual?).

Luxenburg, AFAIK, has its own dialect

--
grey...@mail.com

[Thomas Koenig]

maus <ma...@dmaus.org> schrieb:

Switzerland is even more extreme.

The written version of Swiss German is almost identical to that
of Germany, with a few words that are different and one variant
in spelling, they do not use the ß and write ss instead.

("Trinkt Aklohol in Maßen" means "Drink alcohol in moderation".
In the Swiss variant, you have to write this as "Trinkt Alkohol
in Massen", which in standard German means "Drink lots and lots
of alcohol". Go figure.)

However, Swiss German has a "dialect continuum", which means that
the dialect varies from canton to canton, and people from different
cantons may have real trouble understanding each other. For people
from Germany, Swiss German can be almost impossible to understand.

Most Swiss know how to speak standard German (with an accent).
I think the news is usually read using standard German, but that
is changing a little towards Swiss German now.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

I think that the English consider that people speaking Welsh in the
company of an English person is a snub!

IRRC the last monolingual Welsh speaker died in the 1980s.
I see the Irish can name theirs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Se%C3%A1n_%C3%93_hEinir%C3%AD
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 09:42:27 -0000 (UTC)
"Kerr-Mudd,John" <nots...@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> I think that the English consider that people speaking Welsh in the
> company of an English person is a snub!

I have heard Welsh people talking in corridors switching language as
I approach and switching back after I have passed.

[Stefan Möding]

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:

> When I got my Amiga 500 in 1989 it had a German manual, but the
> translation for "bit planes" (if it even was translated; can't remember)
> was still confusing.

At university one of the operating system lecture books was a German
translation; I think it might have been "Operating System Principles" by Per
Brinch Hansen.

It used a translation for every technical term: "What's a 'Keller'? Ah, he's
talking about a stack...". Very difficult to understand if you're used to the
English terms.

Also the German localized error messages in early AIX were not helpful...

--
Stefan

[gareth evans]

On 26/01/2021 01:47, John Levine wrote:
>
> ... They

> don't want to fall back to double translation with a a major language
> in between.
>

A topic well covered by Monty Python ... My hovercraft is full of eels

[Gerard Schildberger]

On Monday, January 25, 2021 at 10:32:24 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2021 04:15:57 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

I bought a book back around 1988 or so, it dealt with (among other things)
the spread of languages and dialects. At that time, there were more
people in China learning English than there were English speakers in
all other countries. _________________________________ Gerard Schildberger

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 04:58:21 -0800 (PST)
Gerard Schildberger <gera...@rrt.net> wrote:

> I bought a book back around 1988 or so, it dealt with (among other things)
> the spread of languages and dialects. At that time, there were more
> people in China learning English than there were English speakers
> in all other countries.

I saw that fact mentioned on an advert (for HSBC IIRC) in theifrow
a few years back.

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2021-01-26, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>

> I also learned French at school. But after 1988 never practiced so I'm
> not really able to communicate in French.

That's pretty much the case with me and German. I took it for six years
at school but otherwise barely used it. I can sort of follow the gist of
some German texts, but that's about it.

Niklas
--
For a time, I wrote data analysis code in C on VMS. I drank a lot of
tequila during that time.
-- Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes in asr

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2021-01-26, Stefan Möding <Jan2021....@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>
> At university one of the operating system lecture books was a German
> translation; I think it might have been "Operating System Principles" by Per
> Brinch Hansen.
>
> It used a translation for every technical term: "What's a 'Keller'? Ah, he's
> talking about a stack...". Very difficult to understand if you're used to the
> English terms.
>
> Also the German localized error messages in early AIX were not helpful...

Certainly my experience is that IT people loathe translated software
(assuming the original was English, that is), and translated
documentation even moreso. It wouldn't surprise me if this is the case
everywhere on the planet.

Niklas
--
"Some people think that noise abatement should be a higher priority for ATC. I
say safety is noise abatement. You have no idea how much noise it makes to have
a 737 fall out of the sky after an accident." -- anon. air traffic controller

[Stefan Möding]

Niklas Karlsson <ank...@yahoo.se> writes:

> Certainly my experience is that IT people loathe translated software
> (assuming the original was English, that is), and translated
> documentation even moreso. It wouldn't surprise me if this is the case
> everywhere on the planet.

Maybe it is twofold. Beginners may love to use the localized version because
it's easier for them. Later on they learn that posting English error messages
on UseNet/IRC/DiscussionBoard or even Google has a higher chance of getting
help.

--
Stefan

[JimP]

On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 22:35:07 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
<a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 16:02:37 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Has the EU solved the “official language” problem yet? I read somewhere
>>>> that Gaelic is the official language of Ireland ( maybe co-equal with
>>>> English?) and with BREXIT that left no EU member whose official language
>>>> was English, so it was no longer an official language of the EU.
>>>
>>> There is no language problem in the EU. English is and was the language
>>> of business and IT, and that is unlikely to change.
>>>
>>> I heard that if you want to work in an office at Nestle in Switzerland
>>> speaking any of the four Swiss languages (German, French, Italian and
>>> Romansh, sorted by numbers of speakers) won't help. You need to speak
>>> English.
>>>
>>> But if you want to have a "new official language" in the EU you might
>>> have to look at German.
>>
>> Somewhere I read that official EU documents have to be published in the
>> official language of each of the member states. If no country has English
>> as its official language then English is no longer required.
>

>The EU has still a long way ahead to become one country. So documents are
>handled like in the past X hundred year inside of every country. That
>might be different in the European parliament. Am guessing here and
>assume they are issued in all languages of the members of the EU. Some
>countries, like Germany, Austria and parts of Switzerland can be
>eliminated because they speak German, while France and Italy take care
>of the French and Italian parts of Switzerland.
>
>Then look at the United Nations HQ in New York. Suppose not everyone
>speaks English.

>
>>> German speakers account for the largest group
>>> inside Europe. But that won't happen either. Everybody seems to be happy
>>> with English now. And German is much harder to learn than English, if you
>>> are from Spain, France, Italy or any other country with its own proper
>>> language.
>>
>> Every country is jealous of its own language. The French would probably
>> never accept German, and vise-versa.
>

>Yes, I agree.

>
>> I would think English is a much harder language than German because of
>> its quixotic spelling and pronunciation.
>

>I guess you're wrong here.
>
>Anyone here not a native English speaker, who learned English and German,
>can tell what was harder to learn?
>

>> Its only advantage is its ubiquity, so everyone has some exposure to
>> it. German is pronounced as it’s spelled.
>

>With few exception, plus regional differences.

>
>>> I don't think anybody wants to learn German or Gaelic in Europe.
>>
>> I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that
>> it’s the most widely-spoken language. I’d love to learn Gaelic, among
>> others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.
>

>German most widely spoken? I assume that is either Chinese (well they
>have different flavors), Hindu (they also have) or Spanish. Almost all
>countries of South America (Brazil might be one of the few exceptions)
>have Spanish as official language.
>

>French might also have a large area outside mainland France. Many African
>countries for example.

In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.

I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.

--
Jim

[Charlie Gibbs]

Then there's Pedro Carolino's delightful book _English As She Is Spoke_,
a Portugese-English phrasebook. The author, undeterred by the fact that
he didn't speak English, passed phrases through a Portugese-French book
followed by a French-English book. The results are a delightful piece
of unintentional humour.

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2021-01-26, JimP <chuckt...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
>
> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.

By the same token, Canadian schools taught Parisian French.
Many people felt we should be taught Quebec French, although
there was some concern that we might all sink into some sort
of filthy lower-class joual.

[Peter Flass]

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 07:00:43 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 22:30:28 -0500
>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>

>>> I heard that if you want to work in an office at Nestle in Switzerland
>>> speaking any of the four Swiss languages (German, French, Italian and
>>> Romansh, sorted by numbers of speakers) won't help. You need to speak
>>> English.
>>

>> Similarly if you want a bar,hotel,restaurant ... job in central
>> Amsterdam then Dutch is useless but English is essential and other European
>> languages a bonus.
>
> 2003 I was one day in Luxembourg City. As German, coming from France (I
> could had walked but took the train :-D) I went to a bar for a drink. I
> think I was addresses in French so I tried. But either it was too loud or
> my too bad (probably latter) they switched to English. Somehow I still
> didn't manage to order a beer there which was advertised. I asked
> something in English. They must have noticed my accent and switched to
> German. That worked out. But how embarrassing for me. ;-}
>

> Anyway, suppose Dutch was also on their repertoire. They were truly
> quad... (what comes after trilingual?).

Multi-

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 15:46:13 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:

>>
>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>> On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote
>>

>>> And German is much harder to learn than English, if you
>>> are from Spain, France, Italy or any other country with its own proper
>>> language.
>>

>> Really? English is a very irregular language, while Deutsch is
>> quite regular (with the odd exception here and there) and rather logical.
>

> As German I found English easier to learn than French. Russian the
> hardest ever, but I only got the (military) basics.
>
> English has only one article, no matter what gender. It's always "the" or
> "a(n)". French had two plus one for plural (le and la and les) while
> German has three (die, der and das), and "die" for plural. Since "die" is
> the feminine article everything, also more than one man ("men") becomes
> feminine. Also you cannot guess in French or English (suppose Spanish,
> Italian and other languages with more than one article) if the article is
> masculine, feminine, or worse in German, neutral. For example a tree is
> masculine, a boat is neutral (you might have heard about the German 80s
> movie "Das Boot"), while a hedge is female. In English you don't have to
> care about genders.
>
> Then there are cases. English doesn't know of them. I think French has
> two. German has four and Russian six. And there is where novice German
> speakers will have it wrong in most cases. Like "The car belongs to th
> man".
>
> Novice speakers would most likely say "Das Auto gehört der Mann", because
> "der" is a masculine article. Correct is "Das Auto gehört dem Mann". But
> if you use woman (Frau) instead of a man you get "Das Auto gehört der
> Frau". Again, "der" is masculine, but it is correct! Because this is the
> third case (accusative) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusative>.

>
> English has (for my knowledge) only one case.
>

> The car belongs to the man.
> The car belongs to the woman.
>
> If you don't really need German you don't want to learn it. Unless you
> like pain. :-)

German seems to use fewer verb tenses. English is fussier about past, past
perfect, etc.

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 16:02:37 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>

>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Has the EU solved the “official language” problem yet? I read somewhere
>>>> that Gaelic is the official language of Ireland ( maybe co-equal with
>>>> English?) and with BREXIT that left no EU member whose official language
>>>> was English, so it was no longer an official language of the EU.
>>>
>>> There is no language problem in the EU. English is and was the language
>>> of business and IT, and that is unlikely to change.
>>>
>>> I heard that if you want to work in an office at Nestle in Switzerland
>>> speaking any of the four Swiss languages (German, French, Italian and
>>> Romansh, sorted by numbers of speakers) won't help. You need to speak
>>> English.
>>>
>>> But if you want to have a "new official language" in the EU you might
>>> have to look at German.
>>
>> Somewhere I read that official EU documents have to be published in the
>> official language of each of the member states. If no country has English
>> as its official language then English is no longer required.
>

> The EU has still a long way ahead to become one country. So documents are
> handled like in the past X hundred year inside of every country. That
> might be different in the European parliament. Am guessing here and
> assume they are issued in all languages of the members of the EU. Some
> countries, like Germany, Austria and parts of Switzerland can be
> eliminated because they speak German, while France and Italy take care
> of the French and Italian parts of Switzerland.
>

I don’t think Switzerland is an EU country, but there are differences
among Swiss, Austrian, and German German. How do they handle spelling
differences? It’s like US, Canadian, and UK spelling. Everyone likes to see
things the way they’re used to, even if it’s as minor as “color” vs
“colour”.

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

Yes. Sorry, I wasn’t clear.

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

I seem to recall that India wanted to eliminate English as an official
language in favor of Hindi only, but they got so much blowback from non
native-Hindi speakers that they backed down. English is seen as a neutral
language that doesn’t favor any particular ethnic group.

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

You probably could, if you were in Madrid. Barcelona is in Catalonia, and
Catalan is common, and onsidered a separate language. I always thought US
schools should teach Mexican Spanish.

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
> maus <ma...@dmaus.org> schrieb:
>> On 2021-01-26, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>>> Anyway, suppose Dutch was also on their repertoire. They were truly
>>> quad... (what comes after trilingual?).
>>
>> Luxenburg, AFAIK, has its own dialect
>
> Switzerland is even more extreme.
>
> The written version of Swiss German is almost identical to that
> of Germany, with a few words that are different and one variant
> in spelling, they do not use the ß and write ss instead.
>
> ("Trinkt Aklohol in Maßen" means "Drink alcohol in moderation".
> In the Swiss variant, you have to write this as "Trinkt Alkohol
> in Massen", which in standard German means "Drink lots and lots
> of alcohol". Go figure.)
>
> However, Swiss German has a "dialect continuum", which means that
> the dialect varies from canton to canton, and people from different
> cantons may have real trouble understanding each other. For people
> from Germany, Swiss German can be almost impossible to understand.

For people from Germany, people from other regions can be difficult to
understand, but there may be fewer regional dialects in Germany than in
England.

>
> Most Swiss know how to speak standard German (with an accent).
> I think the news is usually read using standard German, but that
> is changing a little towards Swiss German now.
>

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

In mixed company it is. I hear French people,do, or did, will refuse answer
a question in English, even if they speak and understand the language.

>
> IRRC the last monolingual Welsh speaker died in the 1980s.
> I see the Irish can name theirs:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Se%C3%A1n_%C3%93_hEinir%C3%AD

It’s dad to see a language fade out. Each different language is really a
different way of thinking about things



--
Pete

[Joe Morris]

Not so long ago, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2021-01-26, JimP <chuckt...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
> > formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
> > I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
> > couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
> > speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
> >
> > I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.

> By the same token, Canadian schools taught Parisian French.
> Many people felt we should be taught Quebec French, although
> there was some concern that we might all sink into some sort
> of filthy lower-class joual.

When I was growing up in Texas, they taught Castillian Spanish
instead of what the locals spoke. I took Latin instead :)

--
Joe Morris
jol...@gmail.com

[JimP]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 12:06:30 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>JimP <chuckt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 22:35:07 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
>> <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 16:02:37 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>>>

>>>>>> Has the EU solved the ?official language? problem yet? I read somewhere

>>>> it. German is pronounced as it?s spelled.

>>>
>>> With few exception, plus regional differences.
>>>
>>>>> I don't think anybody wants to learn German or Gaelic in Europe.
>>>>
>>>> I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that

>>>> it?s the most widely-spoken language. I?d love to learn Gaelic, among

>>>> others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.
>>>
>>> German most widely spoken? I assume that is either Chinese (well they
>>> have different flavors), Hindu (they also have) or Spanish. Almost all
>>> countries of South America (Brazil might be one of the few exceptions)
>>> have Spanish as official language.
>>>
>>> French might also have a large area outside mainland France. Many African
>>> countries for example.
>>
>> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
>> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
>> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
>> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
>> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
>>
>> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
>>
>
>You probably could, if you were in Madrid. Barcelona is in Catalonia, and
>Catalan is common, and onsidered a separate language. I always thought US
>schools should teach Mexican Spanish.

None of my high school Spanish teachers were from Mexico. I had my
first class in Texas. IIRC, my teachers were from Columbia, Nicaragua,
and Cuba. My junior college teacher in Spanish, as far I could tell,
didn't grow up speaking Spanish, but she was very good at it.

--
Jim

[JimP]

I, and most of my fellow students in Texas, were not allowed to take
Latin unless we or our parents could convince the school the kid was
going to be a doctor or some other job that used latin. So most of us
wound up learning Spanish.

--
Jim

[Dennis Boone]

> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.

There seems to be a common belief that teaching something more formal
(Castilian Spanish, "Modern Standard" [more Quranic, we were told]
Arabic) makes it more likely that you'll be able to communicate with
whomever you encounter.

"More likely" is of course statistical, and even then may or may not be
correct.

De

[Scott Lurndal]

JimP <chuckt...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 12:06:30 -0700, Peter Flass

>>>

>>> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
>>> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
>>> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
>>> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
>>> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
>>>
>>> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
>>>
>>
>>You probably could, if you were in Madrid. Barcelona is in Catalonia, and
>>Catalan is common, and onsidered a separate language. I always thought US
>>schools should teach Mexican Spanish.
>
>None of my high school Spanish teachers were from Mexico. I had my
>first class in Texas. IIRC, my teachers were from Columbia, Nicaragua,
>and Cuba. My junior college teacher in Spanish, as far I could tell,
>didn't grow up speaking Spanish, but she was very good at it.

That was, I suppose many decades ago now.

My nieces both went to spanish immersion school for the six
years of grade school in california. It's been immeasurably
useful for both as adults.

My niece's car had been stolen when she was in Oakland
on business a few years back - when it was recovered she
and her mom (nordic blonde types) went to the auto shop
where the recovered vehicle was stored to pick it up and
the employees started making lewd comments in spanish,
which my niece quickly shut down in literate spanish and they became
quite cooperative.

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2021-01-26, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> German seems to use fewer verb tenses. English is fussier about past,
> past perfect, etc.

And then you see all those auxiliary verbs piled up at the end of a
German sentence...