The Computer Museum (long)
David W. Barts
>Please don't apologise - it's 100% on-topic, and it needs to be said. I
^
>should be apologising for some of the things I said about the TCM.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ditto for me.
> [edited]
>I have a big problem with stripping down a machine and selling the
>modules to the general public who have no idea what they are used for,
>and who will never try to use them electronically ever again.
I'll second this, although I also have to point out that we don't know
for sure if TCM is doing this with the CDC 6600 parts their store is
selling. They could have been acquired as miscellanwous parts.
Something that makes me a little queasy about the whole idea is the
idea that many of the things in TCM's collection were donated to them
under the implicit understanding that they'd be preserved for
historical interest (else, why donate them to a museum?). To then
sell them as souveniers comes off sounding tacky.
I think it's _definitely_ over the line to chop up existing complete
systems to sell off the parts; if the museum already has, say, several
CDC6600 systems they should tell a donor "Frankly, we have several
already and your contribution will probably end up being cut up and
sold to raise funds. If you want to see it kept in one place, here's
a list of other museums and collectors who might be interested in it."
Perhaps Len Shustek could offer some clarification on the exact nature
of the CDC6600 parts that are being offered for sale by the gift shop,
as well as comment on the story about the PDP6 (or was it a PDP1)
being chopped up. I'd sure be happy to find out that story is a myth.
>But even that's preferable to them going in the landfill, I guess.
In some cases, however, only marginally so.
>> Small example: The museum already has two Gavilan notebook computers,
>> which was an example of an early failed entrant into that field. (The
>> collection policy covers, among other things, both "firsts" and
>> "significant failures".) We have just been offered two more by
>> someone whose wife is demanding that he throw them out of the garage.
>> Do we take them? Answer: Yes, but for the auction. Benefits: Donor
>> gets a tax deduction, TCM gets some income, and the items are
>> preserved by some collector rather than being trashed. Seems like a
>> good solution to me.
Did the museum inform the donor as to the probable fate of her
donation?
--
David Barts N5JRN | UW Civil Engineering, Box 352700 | Seattle, WA 98195-2700
dav...@ce.washington.edu | http://www.ce.washington.edu/~davidb
Brad Rodriguez
history, I'm an avid (if small-scale) collector, and I remember the
disappointment of my first (and only) visit to The Computer Museum
in Boston. (Disappointing for reasons already elaborated here.)
If you build a museum such as you describe on the West Coast, I will
certainly visit. But your call for support is disturbingly
reminescent of the original promotions I received for TCM. I realize
their need to bring in money, but if I had been a contributor to TCM
back when they were starting (I was an impoverished student then), I
would certainly be furious now at their change in focus.
My point: I'd like to see a charter for the new museum before I offer
any dollars. Preferably a charter which says this is and always will
be a) a museum b) of computer history c) for adults.
Regards,
Brad Rodriguez
Arnold G Reinhold
about his work at The Computer Museum to bring back its historical mission.
TCM has some wonderful stuff here and I am very sad that it has focused on
personal computers. I particularly remember the AN/FSQ-7 it had on
display. If the historical collection does move to the west coast, I hope some
way will be found to share the collection with the east coast facility. A good
parallel to the museum you propose is the Smithsonian Air and Space
Museum’s Annex outside Washington D.C. It has a much larger collection of
aircraft than it could possibly display at its main facility on the Mall.
I am very interested in the question of preserving software. One important
function a computer historical museum could perform is maintaining a
capability for reading old media: IBM and Univac punch cards, 7 track
magnetic tape, paper tapes in all widths, DECtape, etc. This could also be a
source of revenue as companies and governments seek to recover old data (I
don’t know how far back the commercial data recovery firms go.)
Here are some thoughts I wrote down last year on the idea of a On-line
Software Museum:
OSM would be an collection documenting the evolution of computing through
examples of real code. It would be accessible through standard Internet tools.
The history of computing is short enough that all stages are within living
memory, but the pioneers are dying and media is being thrown out or
degrading to unreadability. While there are museums that collect computing
hardware, software itself has not been the subject of systematic collection, as
far as I know.
One purpose for the museum would be collecting historic code before it
disappears. Possible initial collecting goals might include:
o Source code for milestone programs, e.g.:
Whirlwind
Colosous
IBM 701
Univac Mark 1
SAGE (AN/FSQ-7)
First Fortran compiler (IBM 704?)
First Cobol compiler
UNIVAC program that first predicted a US presidential election
IBM 650 Fortransit
First PL/1
Apollo 11 Lunar Module Guidance Computer ("sun" codes)
Early video games game (MIT Space War, Pong, Space Invaders, etc.)
Visicalc
1-2-3 release 1
Bill Gates' first Basic Interpreter
Original Macintosh ROM
Original IBM PC BIOS
Original MIT Spacewars
Early commercial games like Pong and Space Invaders
o Early Operating Systems in source and binary, e.g.:
MIT's CTSS
MIT's ITS
IBM 704, 709, 7090
IBM 1130 DM-2
IBM 1401 series
IBM OS/360 MFT
PDP-1
PDP-8
PDP-6, PDP-10
PDP-11
DG Nova
o Samples of real programs written in every high level language
o Samples of real assembly language code for every computer ever built
o Diagnostics for every computer ever built (this would also help in testing
simulators)
o The earliest source code ever
I'm sure there are many other candidates. U.S. Government archives might
be a good place to look for program examples since they are generally free
from copyright.
All collected media would be transferred directly to modern digital storage
media as soon as possible without any “code conversion” taking place to
prevent inadvertent loss of information. Conversion to ASCII for browsing
could be done on an as-needed basis. Storage requirements would not be
horrendous. Early machines simply did not have that much memory. A 2400'
reel of 200 CPI magnetic tape stored just under 6 megabytes.
Another goal would be collecting or building simulators for major early
machines. This might require an "Operator Simulator" who would mount
tapes, load card decks, etc. -- maybe even a simulated key punch. This kind
of work would make good student projects.
To this end it would be useful to gather audio recordings of old computers in
working condition while this is still possible. I believe DOD still has some
classics.
Provision might also be made for the storage of modern software source code
in an encrypted form, with the keys kept in escrow. This would encourage
software companies to donate source without fear of compromising trade
secrets.
I would envision a loose network of volunteer collectors who would find the
code, arrange to have it converted to modern media, obtain permissions, etc.
When the collection matures, it could also be made available through a CD-
ROM.
Arnold Reinhold
rein...@world.std.com
David W. Barts
> [edited]
>All collected media would be transferred directly to modern digital storage
>media as soon as possible without any Òcode conversionÓ taking place to
^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^
>prevent inadvertent loss of information. Conversion to ASCII for browsing
>could be done on an as-needed basis. Storage requirements would not be
>horrendous. Early machines simply did not have that much memory. A 2400'
>reel of 200 CPI magnetic tape stored just under 6 megabytes.
How do you propose to store a PDP10 binary consisting of 36-bit words
as a UNIX file of 8-bit bytes if you don't do some form of code
conversion? The same question arises for any other system that had
(or has) a word size that is not an even multiple of 8 bits.
In the case of the PDP10, I suppose you could store the code on a
Toad. For systems like the CDC 6600 (didn't this have 60-bit words?),
you pretty much are forced to do code conversion.
Eric Smith
> Possible initial collecting goals might include:
Hopefully Microsoft still has it. I've heard rumors that Microsoft might
set up an office for a coporate archivist.
The actual source code (vs. one of the many disassemblies) for the 6502
version for the Commodore PET 2001 has been seen floating around. Not quite
as historically significant as their first 4K BASIC for the Altair though.
> Original Macintosh ROM
Still readily available in object code, unlike most of the other items oon
your list. Also rather unlikely that Apple will release the source code
any time soon, since they are still using code derived from the earliest
Mac.
I am considerably more hopeful that Apple could be persuade to release the
source code (or at least distribution rights for the object code) for the
Lisa operating system and software. Although the Lisa wasn't a commercial
success, it certainly seems historically significant in that it was the
first mass-marketed GUI-based system.
> Original IBM PC BIOS
Trivial. It was published in the technical reference manual.
> Original MIT Spacewars
Interesting. Was this for the PDP-1? I do have a copy of the PDP-8 port.
I would add Moon Lander (inspiration for the Atari coin-op Lunar Lander)
to this list. It ran on a GT-40, which was a PDP-11/05 with a VT-11 vector
display configured to be used as a graphics terminal. Al Kossow gave me the
source.
I've been contemplating adding VT-8E and VT-11 support to Robert Supnik's
excellent PDP simulators so that others can play these games (and order burgers
on the moon).
> Early commercial games like Pong and Space Invaders
This is perhaps starting to get off topic, but since you brought it up...
Pong didn't have any microprocessor. It was completely hard wired. I have
an early Atari service manual that covers it.
At last year's hackers converence I demonstrated Pong implemented entirely
in software on a single chip micro. No video hardware! My code had to
toggle port bits at the right time to generate the video. Some of the
tightest code I've ever had to write!
(http://www.spies.com/~eric/pic/picpong.html)
Anyhow, the reason I mention it is that at the last Hackers Conference, I
asked for a volunteer from the audience to help demonstrate my toy, and got
the privilege of playing against Allan Alcorn, the original designer of Pong!
There are a number of people on the net who are interested in preserving
significant coin-op video games. Some of us have written simulators; for
instance Hedley Rainnie and I have written a simulator that can run many of
Atari's vector display games (such as Asteroids). I am happy to give out
copies of the simulator (under the terms of the GPL). The problem is getting
permission to distribute ROM images (under any terms at all).
---
I would add IBM's Stretch (7030) to the list of machines it would be
interesting to preserve. It's another machine that I would consider
historically significant even though it was a (huge) commercial failure.
Of particular interest would the attached special-purpose processor
(Harvest?) that they built for the NSA. I've heard that the NSA sold their
machine (minus the special tape cartridges) back to IBM; I suppose this is
probably the only Stretch in existence even close to working order.
Anybody got Stretch manuals or software lying around? I volunteer to write
a simulator.
---
As an example of companies who have been cooperative to
Cheers,
Eric
Arnold G Reinhold
>>All collected media would be transferred directly to modern digital storage
> ^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^
>>could be done on an as-needed basis. Storage requirements would not be
>>horrendous. Early machines simply did not have that much memory. A 2400'
>>reel of 200 CPI magnetic tape stored just under 6 megabytes.
>
>as a UNIX file of 8-bit bytes if you don't do some form of code
>conversion? The same question arises for any other system that had
>(or has) a word size that is not an even multiple of 8 bits.
Five byte blocks with the high order 4 bits set to zero?
Obviously there would need to be some agreed upon embedding. I worry
about someone getting a character set for some old machine and naively
writing a conversion to ASCII. Some info may be lost in the process due
to a lack of understanding about conventions used in that machine.
Hence my suggestion that all data be collected with as little
conversion as possible.
Arnold Reinhold
John Everett
>
>In article <4h7sbu$f...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
>David W. Barts <dav...@ce.washington.edu> wrote:
>>rein...@world.std.com (Arnold G Reinhold) writes:
>>
>>> [edited]
storage
>> ^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>could be done on an as-needed basis. Storage requirements would not be
>>>horrendous. Early machines simply did not have that much memory. A 2400'
>>>reel of 200 CPI magnetic tape stored just under 6 megabytes.
>>
>>as a UNIX file of 8-bit bytes if you don't do some form of code
>>conversion? The same question arises for any other system that had
>>(or has) a word size that is not an even multiple of 8 bits.
>
>Five byte blocks with the high order 4 bits set to zero?
>
>Obviously there would need to be some agreed upon embedding. I worry
>about someone getting a character set for some old machine and naively
>writing a conversion to ASCII. Some info may be lost in the process due
>to a lack of understanding about conventions used in that machine.
>Hence my suggestion that all data be collected with as little
>conversion as possible.
>
>Arnold Reinhold
>
Note that DEC solved the 36 into 8 code conversion problem back in the 60s to
respond to the advent of 9 track magtape (8 bits data, 1 bit parity). The
TM10 did the job very nicely in hardware. Anyone seriously considering some
archival effort should check the several recording modes it supported.
--
jeve...@wwa.com (John V. Everett)
Peter da Silva
Got that in my original Macintosh. <grin>
Dave Fetrow
Eric Smith <er...@goonsquad.spies.com> wrote:
>I would add IBM's Stretch (7030) to the list of machines it would be
>interesting to preserve. It's another machine that I would consider
>historically significant even though it was a (huge) commercial failure.
>Of particular interest would the attached special-purpose processor
>(Harvest?) that they built for the NSA. I've heard that the NSA sold their
>machine (minus the special tape cartridges) back to IBM; I suppose this is
>probably the only Stretch in existence even close to working order.
>Anybody got Stretch manuals or software lying around? I volunteer to write
>a simulator.
BYU had one, shut down relatively recently (1980).
--
-Dave Fetrow fet...@biostat.washington.edu
http://www.biostat.washington.edu/biostat/staff/fetrow.html
Frank J. Wancho
XKL, to store PDP-10 code, and just about everything else worth archiving?
A PDP-10 served a similar purpose well for ten years up until a relatively
short while ago...
--Frank
Paul Rubin
Al Kossow <a...@goonsquad.spies.com> wrote:
>From article <4h5115$s...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>, by ar...@eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell):
>> Software preservation. I'd be very interested to hear of methods for
>> doing this, as it's a lot more difficult IMHO than hardware preservation.
>> What are people doing about this ?
>>
>
>I've been doing disc image dumps, and writing them to multiple CD-R's
>which should have a decade or so longer life than the magnetic discs, and
>can't ge accidentally overwritten.
One terrible problem is that a lot of software is never distributed
as source code. This is worse now than it was in the PDP-10 era,
but it happened even then. It is a real screw for anyone interested
in keeping old stuff running.
Edward Rice
fet...@biostat.washington.edu (Dave Fetrow) wrote:
> In article <ERIC.96M...@goonsquad.spies.com>,
> Eric Smith <er...@goonsquad.spies.com> wrote:
>
> >I would add IBM's Stretch (7030) to the list of machines it would be
> >interesting to preserve. It's another machine that I would consider
> >historically significant even though it was a (huge) commercial
failure.
> >Of particular interest would the attached special-purpose processor
> >(Harvest?) that they built for the NSA. I've heard that the NSA sold
their
> >machine (minus the special tape cartridges) back to IBM; I suppose
this is
> >probably the only Stretch in existence even close to working order.
> >Anybody got Stretch manuals or software lying around? I volunteer to
write
> >a simulator.
>
> BYU had one, shut down relatively recently (1980).
Could you check on that, Dave? BYU wasn't really the kind of place that
could have used a Stretch. IBM 7030, right? Not a 7040 or 7090 or other
7000-series machine?
David A. Moon
wrote a bunch of stuff.
I'd like to suggest that anyone seriously interested in preserving old
pdp-10 bits
contact Alan Bawden <al...@mc.lcs.mit.edu> about his clever format for preserving
36-bit data on an 8-bit-byte machine which works for both text and binary. It's
more convenient to deal with archival material in this format than in
TM-10 9-track format.
But don't bother him with nonsense about the Computer Museum.
--Dave Moon
Tim Shoppa
David A. Moon <Mo...@cybercom.net> wrote:
>In article <4hcj9j$s...@kirin.wwa.com>, jeve...@wwa.com (John Everett)
>wrote a bunch of stuff.
>I'd like to suggest that anyone seriously interested in preserving old
>pdp-10 bits
>contact Alan Bawden <al...@mc.lcs.mit.edu> about his clever format for preserving
>36-bit data on an 8-bit-byte machine which works for both text and binary. It's
>more convenient to deal with archival material in this format than in
>TM-10 9-track format.
If I remember correctly, there is a rather "standard" (meaning
they must be documented fully in some RFC's) way of sending 36-bit
binary words between 36-bit and 8-bit machines: the ftp "TYPE BINARY"
format, which packs 9 8-bit bytes in 2 36-bit words (or visa-versa).
I also recall a "TYPE TENEX" command in FTP, allowing 4 8-bit bytes
in each 36-bit word. This mechanism obviously loses 4 bits per word
when going the other way, so it shouldn't be a candidate for archival
of 36-bit information.
Are my recollections of the above commands correct? Anybody remember
the byte order, or know which RFC's would document the byte orders?
(Betcha anything the documents originated at BBN!)
A quick search shows that some PC-based FTP implementations don't support
the "TYPE TENEX" command anymore. Since SIMTEL shut down, I don't know
of any 36-bit platforms with anonymous ftp capability to test out the
above commands.
Jay R. Jaeger
>> Original MIT Spacewars
>Interesting. Was this for the PDP-1? I do have a copy of the PDP-8 port.
>I would add Moon Lander (inspiration for the Atari coin-op Lunar Lander)
>to this list. It ran on a GT-40, which was a PDP-11/05 with a VT-11 vector
>display configured to be used as a graphics terminal. Al Kossow gave me the
>source.
>I've been contemplating adding VT-8E and VT-11 support to Robert Supnik's
>excellent PDP simulators so that others can play these games (and order burgers
>on the moon).
Ah yes, indeed. I have a GT40 (you pay it a visit at my WWW site). I
too, have the source. I also have a VT-11 on the PDP-11/24, and run
Lunar Lander at least once a year to check things out. One of these
days I should land at McD's and take a photo for the WWW site. BUT my
light pen is an ersatz job, and that sometimes makes it a challenge.
I got my source from the original author (Jack Burness), but it was in
fact not the original, which may have been lost.
(Anyone have a _real_ light pen for a GT-40 floating around?)
---
Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection
Jay.J...@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube
John Everett
says...
>
>er...@goonsquad.spies.com (Eric Smith) wrote:
>
>>> Original MIT Spacewars
>
>>Interesting. Was this for the PDP-1? I do have a copy of the PDP-8 port.
>
>>I would add Moon Lander (inspiration for the Atari coin-op Lunar Lander)
>>to this list. It ran on a GT-40, which was a PDP-11/05 with a VT-11 vector
>>display configured to be used as a graphics terminal. Al Kossow gave me
the
>>source.
>
Let my put in a vote for the original PDP-10 Adventure game, a seminal piece
of software if there ever was one. As a 350 point cavemaster, I would really
enjoy a chance to play it again, even with the clunky TTY interface.
"... and disappears in a cloud of greasy black smoke."
Megan
>I would add Moon Lander (inspiration for the Atari coin-op Lunar Lander)
>to this list. It ran on a GT-40, which was a PDP-11/05 with a VT-11 vector
>display configured to be used as a graphics terminal. Al Kossow gave me the
>source.
I have a copy of this as well, direct from the author. When I was
a student at WPI and he was visiting, we sat down in front of the
GT44 the school had and got it working on it... since it hadn't
prior to that (if I remember correctly, something about the light-pen
hit intensity was screwed up).
I also know of someone who wrote a version of spacewar for the
GT40, using either the front panel of the 11/40 for controlling
the ships, or using a set of boxes which provided voltage levels
to a DR11-C... I have the source. I think I also still have a
DR11-C with the boxes still wired to it...
It had run-time config bits (from thw switch register) to turn
gravity on and off and to add asteroids, among other things.
I also have a copy of the roses program...
>I've been contemplating adding VT-8E and VT-11 support to Robert Supnik's
>excellent PDP simulators so that others can play these games (and order burgers
>on the moon).
I've thought about that a number of times as well... I was wondering
if it should be an X-Window type thing. I've also wondered about
getting an 11/40 face plate emulation for X-Windows (ala the pdp8e
emulator I have on my system...)
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
Former Ultrix Developer
Currently:
+--------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry | tcp/ip (work): gen...@zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support and Engineering Group | or: gen...@rusure.enet.dec.com |
| Digital Equipment Corporation | (non-work): m...@world.std.com |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "Still real-time after all these |
| (603) 881 1055 | years." |
+--------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
JMFBAH
there was ever anything (usually when someone was leaving the group) that
they felt should stay with the group or be preserved, I got it. I also
have Jim Flemming's stuff. If I should die before this stuff is disposed
appropriately, my relatives (who have no idea what a PDP10 is--they're
just now learning what a computer may be) are the ones who will be going
through this stuff and will probably dump it. I have no idea how to
"designate" what should be dumped and what should be donated nor where it
should go. I do need help.
/BAH
David Wittenberg
|>
|> Let my put in a vote for the original PDP-10 Adventure game, a seminal piece
|> of software if there ever was one. As a 350 point cavemaster, I would really
|> enjoy a chance to play it again, even with the clunky TTY interface.
|>
|> "... and disappears in a cloud of greasy black smoke."
I'm not sure the PDP-10 version was the original. In 79 or so, a friend of
mine had the sources to Adventure. They were in FORTRAN, and the comments
made it clear that it had been ported at least a couple of times. We tried
(but failed) to reverse engineer the wizard password, which allowed you to
play at any time during the day.
Some of the comments were wonderful. My favorite was:
"Now we know the bastard's in trouble, let's tell him about it"
--
--David Wittenberg
d...@cs.brandeis.edu
Bitenbyte
I would like to introduce our museum to you. The American Computer
Museum was founded in 1990 as a non-profit corporation with the IRS and
the state of Montana. The original exhibit space was 300 square feet.
Today, it is 6,000 square feet. Our goal is to develop a major computer
technology museum with about 30,000 square feet of exhibit space within
the next 5 years. We have in the past two months established a library
with thousands of magzines, books, manuals, etc. We hope to have the
library open to researchers within the next year or so. We have thousands
of visitors yearly from over 30 countries and all 50 U.S. states. We are
located 90 miles north of Yellowstone Park and about a mile from the
Museum of the Rockies (internationally known for its dinosaur fossils,
Jack Horner, paleontologist, etc. in Bozeman).
The Exhibits & Collection:
We believe in artifact based displays with interactive enhancements
as budgets permit to highlight the history of computing and computers over
a 4,000 year span. The displays include dozens of typewriters, mechanical
adding machines, slide rules , hand-held mechanical calculators, relay
based tabulators (example: IBM 409), vacuum tube calculators (ex.: IBM
604), early transistor machines (ex.: IBM 1620), other mainframes machines
(ex.: IBM 360, System 3, etc.), analog computers, desktop minis
(ex.:PDP-8, PDP-8/l, etc.), microcomputers (ex.: Altair, IMSAI, PET, SOL,
APPLE II, III, Lisa, MAC, KIM, SYM, etc.), electromechanical/electronic
calculators (ex.: Friden, SCM, Monroe, Mathatron, Anita, Wang, etc.), toy
collection (ex.: mechanical, electrical and electronic toys: Consul the
Educated Monkey, 1918 to Pong, 1970s, etc.), a working industrial robot,
an Apollo Guidance Computer on loan from the Smithsonian, and many other
diplays covering topics such as computer memory (ex.: Selectron Tube, core
panels, delay lines, etc.), history of electronics, etc.
Computer Pioneer Timeline:
We have a constantly expanding hall of fame in the form of a timeline
honoring the key players in the history of the computer. We begin with
Pascal and work our way to the present. Where possible, actual autographed
items from these pioneers & their technologies are on display (ex.:
Stibitz (copy of Model K, built by him, schematics, etc.), Atanasoff,
Felker, Kilby, Hoff, Faggin, etc...).
The American Computer Museum won the 1994 Dibner Award and has been
written about in the New Yorker Magazine, the New York Times, PC Week, USA
Today, etc.
I invite you to visit our museum. As we like to say, you can combine
bears and bits on your trip (Yellowstone and the museum). All who visit
have an opportunity to have a personal tour of the museum. If you find
yourself traveling, we are only one jet plane away from Minneapolis,
Denver or Seattle. Or if you are driving, you can visit the Computer
Museum in Boston and our museum, both but a few blocks away from the same
interstate 90.
Museum Hours:
September-May: 12:00 noon to 4:00 pm, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Fridays &
Saturdays.
June-August: 10:00 am to 4:00 pm 7 days a week
Admission: Adults $3.00, children 6 to 12 $2.00, special group rates
available.
If I can be of assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me!
Sincerely,
George Keremedjiev (BITE...@AOL.COM)
Director
American Computer Museum, Ltd. (WWW.COMPUSTORY.COM)
234 East Babcock Street,
Bozeman, MT 59715
Tel: (406) 587-7545
Paul Rubin
David Wittenberg <d...@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
>In article <4hplm3$c...@kirin.wwa.com>, jeve...@wwa.com (John Everett) writes:
>
>|>
>|> Let my put in a vote for the original PDP-10 Adventure game, a seminal piece
>|> of software if there ever was one. As a 350 point cavemaster, I would really
>|> enjoy a chance to play it again, even with the clunky TTY interface.
>|>
>|> "... and disappears in a cloud of greasy black smoke."
>
>I'm not sure the PDP-10 version was the original. In 79 or so, a friend of
>mine had the sources to Adventure. They were in FORTRAN, and the comments
>made it clear that it had been ported at least a couple of times. We tried
>(but failed) to reverse engineer the wizard password, which allowed you to
>play at any time during the day.
>
was transliterated from fortran. I also used a fortran version
on a data general RDOS machine many years ago. The wizard password
was "dwarf". I don't know if that's the password that was shipped
with it though. I don't remember the encryption algor. but it
was not very serious.
Frank J. Wancho
PS: Trivia question: What does the "BDS" in BDS-C stand for?
Brain-Damaged Software
--Frank
Jay R. Jaeger
>Let my put in a vote for the original PDP-10 Adventure game, a seminal piece
>of software if there ever was one. As a 350 point cavemaster, I would really
>enjoy a chance to play it again, even with the clunky TTY interface.
>"... and disappears in a cloud of greasy black smoke."
There is a reasonable approximate in the C User's Group archives. I
translated the FORTRAN into C on my Altair using BDS-C. Others later
re-translated it. I have seen DOS and Windows based version based at
least in part on my code. When I wrote it, I was so short of memory I
could not hold the data in memory (I hadn't learned compression
techniques yet). Rather than build a fixed index, it built an index
to each data file on the fly. It preceeded that process with the
message "Please wait while I get my act together...".
PS: Trivia question: What does the "BDS" in BDS-C stand for?
---
Ross Alexander
>PS: Trivia question: What does the "BDS" in BDS-C stand for?
I've always laboured under the illusion it was a TLA for "Brain
Damaged Software". Leor Zolman's baby, as I remember.
regards,
Ross
--
Ross Alexander, ve6pdq -- (403) 675 6311 -- r...@cs.athabascau.ca
dave avery
1996 08:58:33 -0500 writes:
:>
:>One of the stories of the PDP-10 Adventure game.....
:>It essentially stopped monitor development for a few days. There were
:>programmers who played this game for at least 3 days non-stop, night and
:>day, all weekend. The game was completed with the exception of 1 point.
:>Now these monitor developers don't f.... around. To be a monitor
:>developer, one needs that kind of curiosity that refuses to be quenched
:>until all questions of a particular aspect are answered. The game wasn't
:>complete until that last point was scored and there was nothing obvious
:>about where the point came from. Solution? Set address break; and that's
:>how they found the last point. Jim was amused for at least a week when
:>he heard 1) how long these people played with no sleep and 2) how they
:>finally solved the last point problem. I don't remember who all played
:>that weekend but maybe someone who did can expand on the story since my
:>info is second-hand.
I was in training at the -10 plant when Adventure arrived... I remember the
stories
going around that the programmers in the tops-10 group and the fortran-10
group
convinced Crouther to give them a complete copy of the sources by sending him
decompiled sections of the program and insisting that they could decompile all
of it in a few weeks. I hand carried a Dec-tape of Adventure back to the
Chicago
field service office and in a week or two almost every Decsystem-10 and -20 in
the
area had a copy running on them ( in [6,6] if nowhere else)
dave
Christopher C Stacy
Brian Westley
>One of the stories of the PDP-10 Adventure game.....
>It essentially stopped monitor development for a few days. There were
>programmers who played this game for at least 3 days non-stop, night and
>day, all weekend. The game was completed with the exception of 1 point.
...
>I don't remember who all played
>that weekend but maybe someone who did can expand on the story since my
>info is second-hand.
That last 1 point is almost certainly the point you get for dropping
"Spelunker Today" in Witt's End, a not-at-all obvious 'task'.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
William
was transliterated from fortran.
You HAVE seen the (Tom Digby?) story "The Programmer and the Elves?" ?
BillW
Joe Morris
>of it in a few weeks. I hand carried a Dec-tape of Adventure back
>to the Chicago field service office and in a week or two almost
>every Decsystem-10 and -20 in the area had a copy running on them
>( in [6,6] if nowhere else)
True, and I suspect that it was no more than a week or so before it was
on almost every TOPS machine in the country.
But your posting suggests a bit of trivia I haven't seen noted before: how
many people (at least people who never ran a TOPS machine) understand
the reference to [6,6]?
Joe Morris / MITRE
Smith and O'Halloran
Joe Morris <jcmo...@mwunix.mitre.org> wrote:
>71531...@compuserve.com (dave avery) writes:
>
>>of it in a few weeks. I hand carried a Dec-tape of Adventure back
>>to the Chicago field service office and in a week or two almost
>>every Decsystem-10 and -20 in the area had a copy running on them
>>( in [6,6] if nowhere else)
>
>True, and I suspect that it was no more than a week or so before it was
>on almost every TOPS machine in the country.
Ah, yes. [6,6] = the account for DEC Field Engineers.
At our site, [6,6] had PDP6 and KA diagnostics, [6,10] had KA/KI/KL
diags, and [6,11] had PDP-11 diags. Remember DDRPI? Now we need
someone to post the names (and functions) of the diags, in order of
frequency of use.
-Joe
--
INWAP.COM is Joe and Sally Smith, John and Chris O'Halloran (and our cats).
See http://www.inwap.com/ for "ReBoot", PDP-10, and Clan MacLeod.
Carl R. Friend
> At our site, [6,6] had PDP6 and KA diagnostics, [6,10] had KA/KI/KL
> diags, and [6,11] had PDP-11 diags. Remember DDRPI? Now we need
> someone to post the names (and functions) of the diags, in order of
> frequency of use.
> -Joe
I'd say that some of the more frequently ones that were run were DDMMD
and DDMMG; both memory diagnostics/exercisers.
--
______________________________________________________________________
| | |
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA |
| mailto:carl....@swec.com | |
| http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 |
|________________________________________________|_____________________|
Eric Smith
> That last 1 point is almost certainly the point you get for dropping
> "Spelunker Today" in Witt's End, a not-at-all obvious 'task'.
In article <4idou0$m...@fountain.mindlink.net> ge...@mindlink.bc.ca (Gene Wirchenko) writes:
> What do you mean "not-at-all obvious"? It was addressed to Witt's End.
Not in the original, it wasn't. If you tried to read it you would be told
that it was written in Dwarvish.
The "addressed to Witt's End" was presumably hacked in by someone who had
gotten frustrated with the lack of any real hint.
Cheers,
Eric
dave avery
sla...@hearsay.demon.co.uk (Simon Slavin) writes:
:>I don't remember [6,6] but the DEC-10 belonging to Middlesex Polytechnic
:>used to have a games account at [50,1234] and a tutorial account at
:>[50,1235]. Was this standard or did the staff there do that off of their
:>own back ? What was [6,6] ?
:>
:>PS: DECWAR ! To boldly suck cycles like no game has ever sucked before.
:>
:>Simon.
[6,6] was the default account issued to the DEC service engineers.
By default all accounts with projecxt numbers < 10 were privileged. There were
online
diagnostics that required the use of a privileged account. [6,6] was one of
the most
common security breeches at many DEC sites because the default password was
never changed
Dave Avery
71531...@compuserve.com
Avia Research
Flight simulator H/W S/W (Link Mk-1 and GP4)
Jay R. Jaeger
>Jay.J...@msn.fullfeed.com (Jay R. Jaeger) writes:
>>PS: Trivia question: What does the "BDS" in BDS-C stand for?
>I've always laboured under the illusion it was a TLA for "Brain
>Damaged Software". Leor Zolman's baby, as I remember.
Bingo! (on both counts).
As far as I can remember, BDS had one original member (Leor). There
was another member, Ed Ziemba, (now deceased), who was working on a
Unix like O/S fo 8080's called MARC (Machine Assisted Resource
Coordinator). I was part of the Beta when Ed was killed in an
accident. It's really a shame. I was just wondering the other day,
if Ed had lived, and MARC had made it to market, maybe _it_ would
have been the O/S that IBM picked, and Mr. Bill would be history.
Sigh.
Charles Richmond
>In article <4hplm3$c...@kirin.wwa.com>, jeve...@wwa.com (John Everett) writes:
>
>|>
>|> of software if there ever was one. As a 350 point cavemaster, I would really
>|> enjoy a chance to play it again, even with the clunky TTY interface.
>|>
>|> "... and disappears in a cloud of greasy black smoke."
>
>mine had the sources to Adventure. They were in FORTRAN, and the comments
>made it clear that it had been ported at least a couple of times. We tried
>(but failed) to reverse engineer the wizard password, which allowed you to
>play at any time during the day.
>
am sure. I have a FORTRAN listing for a Data General Eclipse version. However, I
feel *very* sure that the *first* C & W Adventure was written on a PDP-10.
According to the book _Hackers_ by Steven Levy, it was written at the Stanford
Artificial Intelligence Laboratory and placed on a PDP-10 there.
There is a Colossal Cave Adventure page on the WEB. It's at:
http://www.winternet.com/~radams/adventure/
There is a short description there of the origins of the original Adventure.
Finally, the Jargon file also says that the original Adventure was implemented on
a PDP-10. (Yeah, I *know* there are lots of errors in the Jargon file, but it is
just *one* more confirmation.)
Frank J. Wancho
As far as I can remember, BDS had one original member (Leor). There
was another member, Ed Ziemba, (now deceased), who was working on a
Unix like O/S fo 8080's called MARC (Machine Assisted Resource
Coordinator). I was part of the Beta when Ed was killed in an
accident. It's really a shame. I was just wondering the other day,
if Ed had lived, and MARC had made it to market, maybe _it_ would
have been the O/S that IBM picked, and Mr. Bill would be history.
The third member (of the MARC team) was Lauren Weinstein (remember the
speculation concerning *his* gender?). Ed died in an unfortunate snorkling
accident, the thought of which still produces an occassional nightmare.
MARC was far enough along to have a version of BDS-C for it as well as a
version of Mark of the Unicorn's Amethyst editor, MINCE (MINCE Is Not
Complete EMACS). Without BDS-C, neither MINCE nor MARC would have existed.
MINCE was later ported to MS-DOS as Final Word and sold to Borland to become
SPRINT.
Lauren is still entreprenuering in Culver City, I believe - on the Web
somewhere, last I checked. The principals of Mark of the Unicorn have
scattered. And, Leor? Maybe time to peruse www.switchboard.com....
--Frank
Scott Householder
> mer...@dgii.com (Brian Westley) wrote:
> > That last 1 point is almost certainly the point you get for dropping
> > "Spelunker Today" in Witt's End, a not-at-all obvious 'task'.
>
> In article <4idou0$m...@fountain.mindlink.net>
>> ge...@mindlink.bc.ca (Gene Wirchenko) writes:
> > What do you mean "not-at-all obvious"? It was addressed to Witt's End.
>
> Not in the original, it wasn't. If you tried to read it you would be told
> that it was written in Dwarvish.
Absolutely true.
> The "addressed to Witt's End" was presumably hacked in by someone who had
> gotten frustrated with the lack of any real hint.
Well, I was always told that the reasoning behind the 350'th point was
so that a perfect score would be reserved for FORTRAN wizards who had read
the source code; however, after reading BAH's earlier posting, it's obvious
that MONITOR wizards should also be accorded this priveledge ;-)
John Everett
Since I seem to have originated this sub-thread, let me put in my two cents
worth. I'm relying solely on memory which tends to be fallible (see above:
the dwarf 'vanishes', not 'disappears') but my best recollection is that
ADVENT.EXE first appeared on the PDP-10s at ADP (the old First Data in
Waltham, Mass.) in 1977. It was an incomplete version which only had about
250 points worth of treasure. I seem to recall that there was nothing past
the troll bridge but an 'under construction' sign or some such. I believe our
copy came from WPI, but word at the time was it was developed at Stanford.
Two or three months later we got the full 350 point game.
There is an accurate recreation of the original game at
http://tjwww.stanford.edu/adventure/. It is in reality an HTML front end to
the BSD C source implementation, but seems faithful to the original FORTRAN
implementation. An interesting sidelight is the guestbook page. The reactions
of people who have no idea they are playing a part of computer game history
are really amusing.
--
jeve...@wwa.com (John V. Everett)
Gene Wirchenko
>In article <4i4l8c$i...@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>,
>David Wittenberg <d...@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
>>|> Let my put in a vote for the original PDP-10 Adventure game,
>>
>>I'm not sure the PDP-10 version was the original.
>It originated on the PDP-10. I believe it was at SU-SCORE.ARPA.
>: ADVENT
>:
>: <games> /ad'vent/ The prototypical computer adventure game, first
>: implemented on the PDP-10 by Will Crowther as an attempt at
>: computer-refereed fantasy gaming, and expanded into a puzzle-oriented game
>: by Don Woods. Now better known as Adventure, but the TOPS-10 operating
>: system permitted only six-letter filenames. See also vadding.
>:
>: This game defined the terse, dryly humourous style now expected in text
>: adventure games, and popularised several tag lines that have become fixtures
>: of hacker-speak: "A huge green fierce snake bars the way!" "I see no X here"
>: (for some noun X). "You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike."
>: "You are in a little maze of twisty passages, all different." The "magic
>: words" xyzzy and plugh also derive from this game.
>:
>: Crowther, by the way, participated in the exploration of the Mammoth & Flint
>: Ridge cave system; it actually *has* a "Colossal Cave" and a "Bedquilt" as
>: in the game, and the "Y2" that also turns up is cavers' jargon for a map
>: reference to a secondary entrance.
>The above definition came from the Free On Line Dictionary Of Computing.
> http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/cgi-bin/foldoc?query=ADVENT
How about this definition which appeared in 80-US (a TRS-80 mag) years
ago? (I think I have it exact but...)
ADVENTURE Complex game involving mazes, puzzles, indeterminate goals,
complete waste of time. Also known as debugging.
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
C Pronunciation Guide:
y=x++; "wye equals ex plus plus semicolon"
x=x++; "ex equals ex doublecross semicolon"
Scott Householder
: In article <4i4l8c$i...@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>,
: David Wittenberg <d...@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
: : >play at any time during the day.
: After several times of getting the challenge word, encrypting it with
: "dwarf" and the current time-of-day, I decided to create a backdoor.
: I created a 6-instruction assembly language routine disguised as an
: integer array. It did a GETTAB and returned .TRUE. if the current
: job had POKE privileges. Programmers with the TOPS-10 defined wizard bit
: were allowed to run ADVENT at any time at CSM.
I once tried to compile ADVENT.FOR on TOPS-10 _with the /OPTIMIZE switch_:
It ran for a day and a half (with SET PRIVELIDGE n to get a bigger share
of the timeslicing), and I finally had to kill it since there were complaints
about system slugishness ....
Scott Householder
: Joe Morris <jcmo...@mwunix.mitre.org> wrote:
: >71531...@compuserve.com (dave avery) writes:
: >>of it in a few weeks. I hand carried a Dec-tape of Adventure back
: >>to the Chicago field service office and in a week or two almost
: >>every Decsystem-10 and -20 in the area had a copy running on them
: >>( in [6,6] if nowhere else)
: Ah, yes. [6,6] = the account for DEC Field Engineers.
: At our site, [6,6] had PDP6 and KA diagnostics, [6,10] had KA/KI/KL
: diags, and [6,11] had PDP-11 diags. Remember DDRPI? Now we need
: someone to post the names (and functions) of the diags, in order of
: frequency of use.
For me, by far, the most interesting program in [6,6] was WHEEL ....
Carl R. Friend
>>
> Since I seem to have originated this sub-thread, let me put in my two cents
> worth. I'm relying solely on memory which tends to be fallible (see above:
> the dwarf 'vanishes', not 'disappears') but my best recollection is that
> ADVENT.EXE first appeared on the PDP-10s at ADP (the old First Data in
> Waltham, Mass.) in 1977. It was an incomplete version which only had about
> 250 points worth of treasure. I seem to recall that there was nothing past
> the troll bridge but an 'under construction' sign or some such. I believe our
> copy came from WPI, but word at the time was it was developed at Stanford.
> Two or three months later we got the full 350 point game.
>
I worked at ADPNS (ex First Data) in Waltham from early 1980 to 1983
in hardware systems, and can concurr that during that time frame the
complete 350 point game was operational there.
Your memory of the "vanishes" vs. "disappears" is correct; the proper
quote (I'm looking at an old source hardcopy) is: "You killed a little dwarf.
The body vanishes in a cloud of greasy black black smoke.".
Carl R. Friend
> The proper
> quote (I'm looking at an old source hardcopy) is: "You killed a little dwarf.
> The body vanishes in a cloud of greasy black black smoke.".
Sorry for the error. The word "black" appears only once in the
original.
Jonathan Badger
>As far as I can remember, BDS had one original member (Leor). There
>was another member, Ed Ziemba, (now deceased), who was working on a
>Unix like O/S fo 8080's called MARC (Machine Assisted Resource
>Coordinator). I was part of the Beta when Ed was killed in an
>accident. It's really a shame. I was just wondering the other day,
>if Ed had lived, and MARC had made it to market, maybe _it_ would
>have been the O/S that IBM picked, and Mr. Bill would be history.
While I'm no friend of Mr. Bill, it is worth considering that
Microsoft and Gates didn't appear out of thin air to sell Patterson's
DOS to IBM. Microsoft was quite a flourishing company at the time
selling language and application software on several hardware
platforms. If DOS hadn't been picked, and CP/M or MARC or some other
OS was picked instead, I would expect Microsoft would still be around,
although much less dominant. More like Borland or Symantec, I think.
mr...@ibm.net
>>>> "Carl" == Carl R Friend <carl....@swec.com> writes:
>Carl> I'm moping for exactly the opposite reason. When I departed my
>Carl> first employment (where I was lucky enough to work on -10s) I
>Carl> "willed" my (somewhat) personalised documentation to the bloke I
>Carl> thought best to carry the torch. Included in those archives
>Carl> were things I dearly wish I had today, and have a sightly
>Carl> greater appreciation of today (detailed KA, KI, and KL-10 timing
>Carl> readouts, for example). These are also things that, I imagine,
>Carl> are gone today.
>I've got complete print sets, hardware manuals, and card schematics
>for both the PDP-6 and KA-10. Anyone who REALLY wants a set can get
>one from me. If enough people want them, I'll scan them and put them
>on the net.
I have in my Cambridge garage some 8's and 11's, a 12, a 15 (xvm), a
KL and two 2020's. I have fairly complete docs for KL, if anyone can
make better use of them than I (I have 2 problems - no 3-phase, no KL
memory!). If anyone can suggest the whereabouts of some KL memory or
(sigh) a complete KA or KI, I would be very interested...
Jay R. Jaeger
>In article <4il9cc$b...@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> Jay.J...@msn.fullfeed.com (Jay R. Jaeger) writes:
> As far as I can remember, BDS had one original member (Leor). There
> was another member, Ed Ziemba, (now deceased), who was working on a
> Unix like O/S fo 8080's called MARC (Machine Assisted Resource
> Coordinator). I was part of the Beta when Ed was killed in an
> accident. It's really a shame. I was just wondering the other day,
> if Ed had lived, and MARC had made it to market, maybe _it_ would
> have been the O/S that IBM picked, and Mr. Bill would be history.
>The third member (of the MARC team) was Lauren Weinstein (remember the
>speculation concerning *his* gender?). Ed died in an unfortunate snorkling
>accident, the thought of which still produces an occassional nightmare.
Was he involved before Ed passed away? I didn't think so, but maybe
he was, but I just wasn't aware of it. You sound like perhaps you
have a bit more direct knowledge than I do. No, I don't recall any
speculation, since I spoke with Lauren a few times while he was
working on MARC afterwards. However, MARC got tangled in negotiations
over the estate, from what I recall, and thus never made it to market.
>MARC was far enough along to have a version of BDS-C for it as well as a
>version of Mark of the Unicorn's Amethyst editor, MINCE (MINCE Is Not
>Complete EMACS). Without BDS-C, neither MINCE nor MARC would have existed.
>MINCE was later ported to MS-DOS as Final Word and sold to Borland to become
>SPRINT.
Yup. I had a version with BDS-C.
>Lauren is still entreprenuering in Culver City, I believe - on the Web
>somewhere, last I checked. The principals of Mark of the Unicorn have
>scattered. And, Leor? Maybe time to peruse www.switchboard.com....
I have seen articles here and there in "C" magazines (primarily the
C User's Journal (which evolved along a farily straight path from the
BDS-C User's Group). I still have all of those old issues.
>--Frank
Jay.
Holger Petersen
>I have seen articles here and there in "C" magazines (primarily the
>C User's Journal
I remember writing a review on BDS-C for Dr. Dobbs Journal. I stil have
the original 8-inch Disk I got in Dezember 1979. The article appeared
in Summer 1980.
And I remember the CP/M-version of ADVENTURE (with 250 Points?).
Greetings, Holger
Charles Richmond
>>was Lauren Weinstein (remember the
>>speculation concerning *his* gender?). Ed died in an unfortunate snorkling
>>accident, the thought of which still produces an occassional nightmare.
>
messages about five years ago concerning the original subject of this
thread--Adventure. Evidently he had hacked some Adventure code (at Stanford?)
back when Adventure first came out. He had some very interesting stories to
relate--perhaps he can repost some of them.
>
>>MARC was far enough along to have a version of BDS-C for it as well as a
>>version of Mark of the Unicorn's Amethyst editor, MINCE (MINCE Is Not
>>Complete EMACS). Without BDS-C, neither MINCE nor MARC would have existed.
>>MINCE wa