New Year's Computer Stories...

[Charles Richmond]

Happy New Year!!!

It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.

Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
wrapping around to zeroes.

Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
watchdog timer" quickly enough.

Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
don't you think???

--

Charles Richmond

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

[Marco Moock]

Am 31.12.2022 um 22:35:16 Uhr schrieb Charles Richmond:

> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some
> way are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc.
> etc.

I haven't experienced the millenium change, I was born in 2001,
although I have a fax machine/printer/copier that can only use 2-digit
year, but it doesn't create problems if It set it to 22. I haven't used
it in 2023, so I don't know if it still works with the year 23. :-)

> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
> wrapping around to zeroes.

Was that the "Media Player" (not WMP) or the later WMP?
I have read a similar story about Win 9x with about 40 days.

I have a network card (Broadcom PCI) that stopped working after a
certain amount of time or transferred data. If anybody is interested, I
can find out more.

The software "bmon" crashes after a certain amount of transmitted data
with a segfault. I assume a counter overflow, but I need to examine
that.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 22:35:16 -0600
Charles Richmond <code...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> Happy New Year!!!
>
> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
>

Seems it was 23 years ago. Gosh.

> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
> wrapping around to zeroes.
>
> Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
> watchdog timer" quickly enough.
>
> Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
> don't you think???
>



--

Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Martin Kukac]

Hello everyone!

01 Jan 23 10:46, you wrote:

MM> I have read a similar story about Win 9x with about 40 days.

I used an old PC to act as a WiFi client and router in my parents house
around 2004 and as it was an old Pentium-class machine and Linux didn't
support my PCI WiFi card at first, I had Windows 98 running there. I can
confirm, that the memory management bug, that makes the system go out of
free RAM after about 40 days, was there. I was living about 200 km away
from my parents back then as I was on the university, and my mum had to go
every month to the attic and reset the machine.

I was really glad when ndiswrapper started to work with that PCI card and I
could migrate the machine to Linux :)

Martin


... All bugs encountered until reboot are features.

[TheAppleFox]

Hi everybody, happy new year
I'm new here
:-) Can't believe Usenet still exists in 2023

[Dennis Boone]

> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.

I seem to recall a linux kernel bug involving a mis-handled leap second,
one NYE a decade+ back. Locked up the affected machines. One for which
I was responsible was ~80 miles away.

De

[TheAppleFox]

Talk about the devil. I recall once installing Gentoo, I finish compiling my manually compiled vmlinuz 9.6 MB, I had integrated everything into one big monolithical file (I wanted it to run as fast as possible) with NO initramfs.

Forgot to include the NVidia SATA device driver, spent the next 2 hours figuring out why the kernel panicked.

make menuconfig - fail!

[Rich Alderson]

Charles Richmond <code...@aquaporin4.com> writes:

> Happy New Year!!!

> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.

> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
> wrapping around to zeroes.

> Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
> watchdog timer" quickly enough.

> Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
> don't you think???

We used to set the date on some of the systems at Living Computers: Museum+Labs
to 28 years earlier because there was no other way to get around the Y2K issue
on ancient operating systems. We had a note that after 31 December 2027 the
admins for those systems would need to subtract 56 from the date.

Sadly, we don't need to concern ourselves with that any longer.

--
Rich Alderson ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

[Leonard Blaisdell]

On 2023-01-01, TheAppleFox <theap...@the.apple.fox> wrote:

> Hi everybody, happy new year
> I'm new here
>:-) Can't believe Usenet still exists in 2023

Happy New Year! Most of us are waiting to turn off the lights and lock
the door. There's very little Apple discussion in this group, but I've
found the group fascinating for years. Since I'm an Apple guy, I post
here rarely. :)
Put on your armor and have fun on Usenet! It's completely uncensored.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On 3 Jan 2023 01:22:54 GMT

Apple? that's just for *users*!

HNY likewise.

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Sun, 2023-01-01, Charles Richmond wrote:
> Happy New Year!!!
>
> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
>
> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
> wrapping around to zeroes.
>
> Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
> watchdog timer" quickly enough.
>
> Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
> don't you think???

I don't have one that I can recall. For most of my programming, time
has been either irrelevant or it has been the Unix time_t which
doesn't care. In 1999, my home computers ran Linux and people had
dealt with the Y2K bugs for me.

But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
seconds since some T=0".

A QDateTime is:
- a date
- a time-of-day
- a time zone

and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you
start messing with the time zone, you have to remember which function
preserves the time while shifting the time zone, and which function
instead preserves the date and time-of-day.

I suppose this type is a good fit when you need to format or parse a
time string, or need to do calculations on calendar time ("two days
ago") but the Qt framework encourages using it all the time[2], as a
replacement for time_t, struct timeval and friends.

/Jorgen

[1] https://doc.qt.io/qt-6/qdatetime.html
[2] Pun intended.

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Sun, 2023-01-01, Charles Richmond wrote:

> Happy New Year!!!
>
> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
>
> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
> wrapping around to zeroes.
>
> Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
> watchdog timer" quickly enough.
>
> Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
> don't you think???

Not really computer-related, but before 2000 I tended to write down
dates as yy-mm-hh or yymmhh when I needed to date a letter or some
notes I'd taken on paper. So for example I'd write "990430".

For a few years /after/ 2000 I wrote year-1900 instead: "100-04-30",
"101-04-30" and so on. It didn't catch on, and I think I stopped
doing it in 2003 or so. I guess I decided I didn't need my own
personal date format.

/Jorgen

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 7 Jan 2023 09:52:57 GMT

Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> wrote:

> But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
> it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
> someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
> seconds since some T=0".

Late 60s given that the unix epoch is in 1970 (just).

> A QDateTime is:
> - a date
> - a time-of-day
> - a time zone
>
> and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you

It's impossible to get right - places like Ireland and the UK
switch timezone twice a year while most US timezones shift their offset from
UTC twice a year. Then there's the whole business of the missing/duplicated
hour as the clocks go forwards/backwards.

> start messing with the time zone, you have to remember which function
> preserves the time while shifting the time zone, and which function
> instead preserves the date and time-of-day.

Then you cross a DST boundary and all the bugs come to the surface.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 01-01-2023 kl. 05:35 skrev Charles Richmond:
> Happy New Year!!!
>
> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
>
> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
> wrapping around to zeroes.
>
> Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
> watchdog timer" quickly enough.
>
> Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
> don't you think???

Not so much a new year's issue, but I recall one system[1] which started
misbehaving increasingly erratically after a certain date.

After much head-scratching, the cause turned out to be that a certain
hard-coded table indexed by year ran out of entries, so the values used
for later years were random garbage.

[1] Name withheld to protect the guilty

/Anders, Denmark

[greymaus]

I remember something about that as well. Do not publish the name of the
guilty, as he might appear when His name is spoken.

--
grey...@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

[Peter Flass]

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 7 Jan 2023 09:52:57 GMT
> Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>
>> But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
>> it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
>> someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
>> seconds since some T=0".
>
> Late 60s given that the unix epoch is in 1970 (just).
>
>> A QDateTime is:
>> - a date
>> - a time-of-day
>> - a time zone
>>
>> and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you
>
> It's impossible to get right - places like Ireland and the UK
> switch timezone twice a year while most US timezones shift their offset from
> UTC twice a year. Then there's the whole business of the missing/duplicated
> hour as the clocks go forwards/backwards.

I think Indiana is, or was, split between two timezones; Arizona doesn’t
observe DST; based on what I saw New Years, it appears Puerto Rico is 1/2
hour ahead of New York,; China is all one timezone, and there’s lots more
of such F*ckishness.

>
>> start messing with the time zone, you have to remember which function
>> preserves the time while shifting the time zone, and which function
>> instead preserves the date and time-of-day.
>
> Then you cross a DST boundary and all the bugs come to the surface.
>



--

Pete

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2023-01-08, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On 7 Jan 2023 09:52:57 GMT
>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>
>>> But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
>>> it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
>>> someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
>>> seconds since some T=0".
>>
>> Late 60s given that the unix epoch is in 1970 (just).
>>
>>> A QDateTime is:
>>> - a date
>>> - a time-of-day
>>> - a time zone
>>>
>>> and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you
>>
>> It's impossible to get right - places like Ireland and the UK
>> switch timezone twice a year while most US timezones shift their offset from
>> UTC twice a year. Then there's the whole business of the missing/duplicated
>> hour as the clocks go forwards/backwards.
>
> I think Indiana is, or was, split between two timezones; Arizona doesn’t
> observe DST; based on what I saw New Years, it appears Puerto Rico is 1/2
> hour ahead of New York,; China is all one timezone, and there’s lots more
> of such F*ckishness.

Saskatchewan doesn't observe DST as well. Newfoundland and Labrador are
(is?) half an hour ahead of Halifax.

>>> start messing with the time zone, you have to remember which function
>>> preserves the time while shifting the time zone, and which function
>>> instead preserves the date and time-of-day.
>>
>> Then you cross a DST boundary and all the bugs come to the surface.

I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.

Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.

[greymaus]

But, But, that would mean making a decision

[greymaus]

On 2023-01-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>
> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>

Its bad enough having relatives mailing photos from the beach in
Australia at Christmas without that. (forgetting people swimming at the
40ft in Dublin). remember yesterday was Christmas day in Russia.

[Andreas Eder]

On So 08 Jan 2023 at 08:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>
> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.

Yes, but that would be rational - so no chance.

'Andreas

[D.J.]

On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 17:55:55 -0700, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On 7 Jan 2023 09:52:57 GMT
>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>
>>> But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
>>> it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
>>> someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
>>> seconds since some T=0".
>>
>> Late 60s given that the unix epoch is in 1970 (just).
>>
>>> A QDateTime is:
>>> - a date
>>> - a time-of-day
>>> - a time zone
>>>
>>> and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you
>>
>> It's impossible to get right - places like Ireland and the UK
>> switch timezone twice a year while most US timezones shift their offset from
>> UTC twice a year. Then there's the whole business of the missing/duplicated
>> hour as the clocks go forwards/backwards.
>
>I think Indiana is, or was, split between two timezones; Arizona doesn’t
>observe DST; based on what I saw New Years, it appears Puerto Rico is 1/2
>hour ahead of New York,; China is all one timezone, and there’s lots more
>of such F*ckishness.

I was looking online at a time zone map a few years ago, and smaller
countries around Pakistan are a half hour ahead of the surrounding
countries. seems silly to me.

Can't find the one I saw years ago, but this page mentions some
countries are 30 and 45 minutes ahead of others nearby. Also
explanations of DST, etc.

https://www.timeanddate.com/time/current-number-time-zones.html
--
Jim

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2023-01-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>
> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.

Aviation already uses UTC, although anything that crosses time zones
would benefit.

[Charlie Gibbs]

That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.

[Scott Lurndal]

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>On 2023-01-08, greymaus <grey...@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>
>That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
>Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
>decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
>of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.

California has already _made_ such a decision. They're just waiting
on the US congress to make it possible.

[Scott Lurndal]

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>On 2023-01-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>
>Aviation already uses UTC, although anything that crosses time zones
>would benefit.

IIRC, the railroads are the reason we have official timezones (and
a consistent national view of time) today.

[Vir Campestris]

My understanding is it was the railways. Pre-railway every town in the
UK had its own time.

It must have been fun for seamen who used the difference between local
time and clock time to work out how far west they were.

Andy

[greymaus]

On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-01-08, greymaus <grey...@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>
> That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
> Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
> decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
> of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.
>

The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.

[1] Along with other bad things.

[D.J.]

On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 17:15:01 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Someone will always g to school or work in the dark, or come hme in
the dark, regardeless of what is done with the clocks.

Its the US Naval Observatory i the US that decides.
--
Jim

[greymaus]

+

Canals didn't need them, just float along, open a barrel, fill up again
with canal water from the seven springs, and the best stout in Europe.

[johnson]

On 2023-01-08, D.J <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:
[...]

> I was looking online at a time zone map a few years ago, and smaller
> countries around Pakistan are a half hour ahead of the surrounding
> countries. seems silly to me.
>
> Can't find the one I saw years ago, but this page mentions some
> countries are 30 and 45 minutes ahead of others nearby. Also
> explanations of DST, etc.
>

Nepal is UTC+05:45

[D.J.]

On 8 Jan 2023 17:50:11 GMT, greymaus <grey...@dmaus.org> wrote:
>On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-01-08, greymaus <grey...@dmaus.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>>
>>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>>
>> That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
>> Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
>> decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
>> of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.
>>
>
>The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
>could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.
>
>[1] Along with other bad things.

Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times. I think it was
eventually done away with.

No idea when it started up again. We were told in the 1950s that it
was due to not all farmers having electricity, and when the Rural
elctrification Project was done, it would be stopped.

My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.

The excuse to keep it going changes every few years.
--
Jim

[D.J.]

I noticed, on that page I linked to, that parts of Australia are 45
minutes ahead in various places. I had no idea.
--
Jim

[Andy Burns]

D.J. wrote:

> I noticed, on that page I linked to, that parts of Australia are 45
> minutes ahead in various places.

gov.au disagrees

<https://www.australia.gov.au/time-zones-and-daylight-saving>

[John Levine]

According to D.J. <chuckt...@gmnol.com>:

>>The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
>>could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.
>>
>>[1] Along with other bad things.

That is my understanding, give or take gardening vs just having more
daylight while people are awake.

>Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times. I think it was
>eventually done away with.

He may wwll have talked about it, but DST doesn't even make sense until
you have time zones and they weren't invented until the late 1800s when
railroads imposed them on the country since schedules with each city in
its own solar time were impossible to comprehend.

--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

[jtmpreno]

On 1/8/2023 6:16 PM, John Levine wrote:
> According to D.J. <chuckt...@gmnol.com>:
>>> The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
>>> could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.
>>>
>>> [1] Along with other bad things.
>
> That is my understanding, give or take gardening vs just having more
> daylight while people are awake.
>
>> Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times. I think it was
>> eventually done away with.
>
> He may wwll have talked about it, but DST doesn't even make sense until
> you have time zones and they weren't invented until the late 1800s when
> railroads imposed them on the country since schedules with each city in
> its own solar time were impossible to comprehend.
>

Permanent DST is bad.

Permanent Standard Time is good.

https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/03/28/why-permanent-daylight-saving-time-bad-idea

[Joy Beeson]

On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. <chuckt...@gmnol.com>
wrote:

> Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times.

Ben got a bum rap -- the letter to The Journal of Paris is obviously a
joke.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Andreas Eder]

On So 08 Jan 2023 at 23:32, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
>> The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
>> and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.
>

> I think chickens don't care, but cows do. They like a 24 hour cycle to
> get milked.
>
> As far as I know when switching clocks farmers gradually do it a few
> minutes earlier or later for some days to get cows adjusted.

Why adjust them at all? It is not as they would look at the clock and
they surely won't mind it they are ,ilked at 4 or 5 o'clock as long as
it is the same time.

'Andreas

[maus]

An elderly relative in New York would telephone us very early on
Christmas morning to wish HC. I don't like calls at odd hours.

[Peter Flass]

If the areas were all contiguous, you could just rejigger the time zones.
They already jog around political boundaries. if they’re not, well, you
can’t have a patchwork. Here in AZ we son’t observe DST, and it makes
things a lot simpler, except when I have to deal with people from less
enlightened states, and have to count time zones on my fingers.

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

It wouldn’t really solve any problems, since people would still schedule
their days around the sun. You’d still have the problem of call centers in
India working overnight to deal with people in the US, for whom it’s
daytime. I think it’s less confusing to have the clock time correspond,
more or less, to the local solar time. It’s really just DST that’s the
problem.



--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-01-08, greymaus <grey...@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>
> That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
> Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
> decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
> of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.
>

Let ‘em. At least it would avoid changing the time. I still have to figure
“let’s see,what time zone is this state in now?” “Dark morning” is similar
to the reason I heard Arizona doesn’t change time. We’d rather have the
“extra” hour in the evening, when it’s cooler.

--
Pete

[Andreas Eder]

On Mo 09 Jan 2023 at 10:12, maus <ma...@dmaus.org> wrote:

> An elderly relative in New York would telephone us very early on
> Christmas morning to wish HC. I don't like calls at odd hours.

Well, early morning is early morning - no matter what the clock shows.

'Andreas

[Scott Lurndal]

His arguments are not convincing and are specific to where he lives.

The time of sunset varies by an hour _within_ a timezone from east to west,
so any arguments about specific times are restricted to a single point
in the timezone.

Longer evenings win in my book. DST forever!

[Scott Lurndal]

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. wrote:
>>

>> My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
>> The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
>> and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.
>

>I think chickens don't care, but cows do. They like a 24 hour cycle to
>get milked.

They like to be milked twice a day[*]. It doesn't matter the exact time of day
so long as it is regular, nor do they recognize changes between daylight
savings and standard time.

[*] It can be uncomfortable for the cow if they're not milked on time.

[Andreas Eder]

On Mo 09 Jan 2023 at 07:04, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Andreas Eder <a_ede...@web.de> wrote:
>> On So 08 Jan 2023 at 08:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>>
>>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>>
>> Yes, but that would be rational - so no chance.
>
> It wouldn’t really solve any problems, since people would still schedule
> their days around the sun.

What does this have to do with what the clock shows? The sun rises, no
matter wether the clock shows 2, 4, 18 or 24.

> You’d still have the problem of call centers in
> India working overnight to deal with people in the US, for whom it’s
> daytime.

That hasn't got to do anything whith what the clock shows either.

'Andreas

[maus]

On 2023-01-09, Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. wrote:
>>>
>>> My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
>>> The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
>>> and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.
>>
>>I think chickens don't care, but cows do. They like a 24 hour cycle

>>tovs

>>get milked.
>
> They like to be milked twice a day[*]. It doesn't matter the exact time of day
> so long as it is regular, nor do they recognize changes between daylight
> savings and standard time.
>
> [*] It can be uncomfortable for the cow if they're not milked on
>

Very true, from someone who has worked at almost every job.

[John Levine]

According to Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net>:

>>https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/03/28/why-permanent-daylight-saving-time-bad-idea
>
>His arguments are not convincing and are specific to where he lives.
>
>The time of sunset varies by an hour _within_ a timezone from east to west,
>so any arguments about specific times are restricted to a single point
>in the timezone.
>
>Longer evenings win in my book. DST forever!

The anti-DST crowd is dominated by sad insomniacs who get up early in
the morning and imagine that is good, or worse, virtuous.

But we know they are wrong.

[Peter Flass]

Right. What would be the point of everyone changing to UTC, since it
wouldn’t affect anything except the clock time people,started and left
work. You’d still have the problem coordinating across the now-nonexistent
time zones. If I wanted to call someone from New York, it wouldn’t matter
what either clock read, the question still would be “is this working hours
for this person?”

--
Pete

[Charles Richmond]

On 1/9/2023 7:00 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:

> jtmpreno <no...@znet.com> writes:
>> Permanent Standard Time is good.
>

> ... and you can start it today!
>
> For several years for all my internal uses, I use permanent
> standard time. My devices do not perform transitions to DST
> anymore.
>
> When exchanging times with other parties, I have to perform
> a conversation now.
>
>

Seem you live 90 degrees out on the Tau Axis... you can't get there from
here. (Here being our space-time dimension.) ;-)
--

Charles Richmond


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

[Charles Richmond]

On 1/8/2023 9:12 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. <chuckt...@gmnol.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times.
>
> Ben got a bum rap -- the letter to The Journal of Paris is obviously a
> joke.
>

Benjie Franklin was a real joker alright. You can see a picture of him
laughing on the US hundred dollar bill. :-)

[Charles Richmond]

Technically true. But if you look at a regular map of the state of
Arizona, you'll find a large chunk in the north to belong to the Navajo
Indian Reservation. The Navajo Nation in northeastern Arizona *does*
observe Daylight Saving Time. Navajo Indian Reservation, Arizona is
within the Navajo Nation.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2023-01-08 01:55, Peter Flass wrote:
> I think Indiana is, or was, split between two timezones; Arizona doesn’t
> observe DST; based on what I saw New Years, it appears Puerto Rico is 1/2
> hour ahead of New York,; China is all one timezone, and there’s lots more
> of such F*ckishness.

And then there is the Indian Reservation inside Arizona, which *do*
observe DST, except a small part inside that reservation which do not.

It's turtles all the way down...

But honestly, if a structure do have the TZ information separate, then
you would assume that the core time is always UTC, which already makes
it half usable. Then we're just down to figuring out how to present
local time, which is a smaller subset of a problem.

Johnny

[greymaus]

On 2023-01-08, D.J <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:

I have great respect, from what I read anyway, for the late Mr.
Franklin, I wonder if he was taking the p*** sometimes, in things like
the electricity experiment, which must have killed a lot of the people
who trued it. The US was lucky to have had him at that time.

[greymaus]

There is the problem with satellite TV, we in .ie are at the extreme
edge of the area from which you have line-of-sight for direct satellite
access. Somewhere to the left of Spinions Hill. (Its been years since I
could adjust the dish)

[greymaus]

On 2023-01-09, John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
> According to Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net>:
>>>https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/03/28/why-permanent-daylight-saving-time-bad-idea
>>
>>His arguments are not convincing and are specific to where he lives.
>>
>>The time of sunset varies by an hour _within_ a timezone from east to west,
>>so any arguments about specific times are restricted to a single point
>>in the timezone.
>>
>>Longer evenings win in my book. DST forever!
>
> The anti-DST crowd is dominated by sad insomniacs who get up early in
> the morning and imagine that is good, or worse, virtuous.
>
> But we know they are wrong.
>

less boring than lying in the bed.

[greymaus]

On 2023-01-09, Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. <chuckt...@gmnol.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times.
>
> Ben got a bum rap -- the letter to The Journal of Paris is obviously a
> joke.
>
>

Ben, I think, liked a joke

[greymaus]

On 2023-01-09, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
>> The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
>> and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.
>

> I think chickens don't care, but cows do. They like a 24 hour cycle to
> get milked.
>
> As far as I know when switching clocks farmers gradually do it a few
> minutes earlier or later for some days to get cows adjusted.

A cow does not like her routine changed, and an angry cow is rapidly a
sick cow.

%s/cow/woman/g

[greymaus]

On 2023-01-08, D.J <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 18:32:51 GMT, johnson <ro...@example.net> wrote:
>>On 2023-01-08, D.J <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:

>>[...]
>>> I was looking online at a time zone map a few years ago, and smaller
>>> countries around Pakistan are a half hour ahead of the surrounding
>>> countries. seems silly to me.
>>>
>>> Can't find the one I saw years ago, but this page mentions some
>>> countries are 30 and 45 minutes ahead of others nearby. Also
>>> explanations of DST, etc.
>>>
>>
>>Nepal is UTC+05:45

>
> I noticed, on that page I linked to, that parts of Australia are 45

> minutes ahead in various places. I had no idea.

Oz is a big place. A friend had a row with his family, and threatened to
go there. I was watching a thing on utube at the time about the train
trip across the nullabour plain. Pensioners can do it free, AFAIK. Its
not Ireland. Shout-outs to all my relations there, and would they sign
my visa application? Ignore my age.

> --
> Jim

[greymaus]

On 2023-01-09, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-01-08, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7 Jan 2023 09:52:57 GMT
>>>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
>>>>> it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
>>>>> someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
>>>>> seconds since some T=0".
>>>>
>>>> Late 60s given that the unix epoch is in 1970 (just).
>>>>

(over snipped)

Good luck with the sunburn. We in Ireland think we have
trouble with travellers :)

[greymaus]

On 2023-01-09, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Some years ago, a company on Merrion Sq would start up at an odd hour.
Passers by wondered where in the World was that the time of business
hours. It folded shortly fter

[greymaus]

On 2023-01-10, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Andreas Eder <a_ede...@web.de> wrote:
>> On Mo 09 Jan 2023 at 07:04, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Andreas Eder <a_ede...@web.de> wrote:
>>>> On So 08 Jan 2023 at 08:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
>>>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>>>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>>>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>>>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>>>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>>>>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but that would be rational - so no chance.
>>>
>>> It wouldn’t really solve any problems, since people would still schedule
>>> their days around the sun.
>>
>> What does this have to do with what the clock shows? The sun rises, no
>> matter wether the clock shows 2, 4, 18 or 24.
>>
>>> You’d still have the problem of call centers in
>>> India working overnight to deal with people in the US, for whom it’s
>>> daytime.

perhaps we should go back to using Paris as Prime meridian? Or L.A, so
we can join the nuts?.

[johnson]

On 2023-01-10, greymaus <grey...@dmaus.org> wrote:
[...]

> Good luck with the sunburn. We in Ireland think we have
> trouble with travellers :)

oh? I thought you'd sent them all over to Britain

[Andreas Eder]

On Di 10 Jan 2023 at 14:41, greymaus <grey...@dmaus.org> wrote:

> On 2023-01-09, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. wrote:
>>>
>>> My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
>>> The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
>>> and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.
>>
>> I think chickens don't care, but cows do. They like a 24 hour cycle to
>> get milked.
>>
>> As far as I know when switching clocks farmers gradually do it a few
>> minutes earlier or later for some days to get cows adjusted.
>
> A cow does not like her routine changed, and an angry cow is rapidly a
> sick cow.

But that's just what I'm saying. Don't change the routine of the cow
and milk always at the same time no matter what the click shows.
That should not be so diffcult to di and understand.

'Andreas

[D.J.]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2023 15:09:10 +0100, Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se>
wrote:

>On 2023-01-08 01:55, Peter Flass wrote:
>> I think Indiana is, or was, split between two timezones; Arizona doesn’t
>> observe DST; based on what I saw New Years, it appears Puerto Rico is 1/2
>> hour ahead of New York,; China is all one timezone, and there’s lots more
>> of such F*ckishness.
>
>And then there is the Indian Reservation inside Arizona, which *do*
>observe DST, except a small part inside that reservation which do not.

The part inside that doesn't is the Apache Reservation. The
reservation that does, are the Najaho.

--
Jim

[Charles Richmond]

If *not* for Benjamin Franklin's influence at the US Constitutional
Convention, there would *not* be a United States. One big sticking
point was slavery. The southern states wanted slaves to count as people
for the purposes of representation in the House of Representatives, the
northern states did *not* want slaves counted at all. The compromise
was to count each slave as 3/5's of a person for purpose of Representation.

From what I heard on documentaries, Franklin did *not* like slavery,
but he realized that there would *not* be another constitutional
convention. He had to make this opportunity work, or there would *be*
*no* United
States.

[Peter Flass]

Hopi, IIRC

>
> --
> Jim
>



--
Pete

[Charlie Gibbs]

The tower at our local airport goes the opposite way.
Their hours are currently 15-07Z, but change to 14-06Z
when DST is in effect. In other words, 7 a.m. to 11 p.m.
local time all year round.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

[John Levine]

According to greymaus <grey...@dmaus.org>:

>perhaps we should go back to using Paris as Prime meridian? Or L.A, so
>we can join the nuts?.

I dunno. Paris switched from GMT to Nazi time in 1940 and never switched back.

[Joy Beeson]

On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 23:32:08 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
<a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> As far as I know when switching clocks farmers gradually do it a few
> minutes earlier or later for some days to get cows adjusted.

The orchard I used to live near had a simpler solution. When the
clocks were meddled with, he changed the numbers on the open-hours
sign to say the same time with the new name.

--
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGESEW/
The above message is a Usenet post.

[maus]

Sometimes they come back. Perhaps Nantucket next?

[D.J.]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2023 12:16:32 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>D.J. <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Jan 2023 15:09:10 +0100, Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se>
>> wrote:
>>> On 2023-01-08 01:55, Peter Flass wrote:

>>>> I think Indiana is, or was, split between two timezones; Arizona doesn?t

>>>> observe DST; based on what I saw New Years, it appears Puerto Rico is 1/2

>>>> hour ahead of New York,; China is all one timezone, and there?s lots more

>>>> of such F*ckishness.
>>>
>>> And then there is the Indian Reservation inside Arizona, which *do*
>>> observe DST, except a small part inside that reservation which do not.
>>
>> The part inside that doesn't is the Apache Reservation. The
>> reservation that does, are the Najaho.
>
>Hopi, IIRC

Okay, I disremembered then.
--
Jim

[Vir Campestris]

On 08/01/2023 08:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.

If I was in an office where midnight UTC fell in the middle of the day I
would probably get really confused over what date it was.

Andy

[John Levine]

According to Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid>:

It's fortunate you're not an astronomer.

[Bob Eager]

On Fri, 13 Jan 2023 22:10:13 +0000, John Levine wrote:

> According to Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid>:
>>On 08/01/2023 08:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that
people
>>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>>
>>If I was in an office where midnight UTC fell in the middle of the day I
>>would probably get really confused over what date it was.
>
> It's fortunate you're not an astronomer.

It's so nice living near Greenwich.




--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2023-01-13, John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:

> According to Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid>:
>
>> On 08/01/2023 08:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>>
>> If I was in an office where midnight UTC fell in the middle of the day I
>> would probably get really confused over what date it was.
>
> It's fortunate you're not an astronomer.

Or a pilot.

[Peter Flass]

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> If we were used that midnight fell for some of us in the middle of the
> day it would be normal. Some might then not call it "high noon" but "high
> night" then, but apart from that...

I still think this is the worst idea I’ve heard this year (so far)

--
Pete

[Vir Campestris]

On 14/01/2023 13:11, Peter Flass wrote:
> I still think this is the worst idea I’ve heard this year (so far)

The one I keep seeing that confuses me is references to 12:00am (or
12:00pm).

I have no clue which is noon and which is midnight.

Andy

[D.J.]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 12:23:22 +0000, Vir Campestris
<vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 14/01/2023 13:11, Peter Flass wrote:

>> I still think this is the worst idea I致e heard this year (so far)

>
>The one I keep seeing that confuses me is references to 12:00am (or
>12:00pm).
>
>I have no clue which is noon and which is midnight.
>
>Andy

Those are artificial anyway, created by the early LED clock makers. 12
PM is noon, and 12AM is midnight.

I've hear people do it redundantly.

"Its 12 PM Noon."

Which, is very silly.
--
Jim

[Alfred Falk]

Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote in news:tq3fjq$2mp57
$1...@dont-email.me:

Consider that hours are counted modulo 12, so 12:00 is actually 00:00.
Then 00:00 am is followed by 00:01 am and 00:00 pm is fillowed by 00:01 pm.

[Christian Brunschen]

In article <36sash1a624p0iqbm...@4ax.com>,

D.J. <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 12:23:22 +0000, Vir Campestris
><vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>On 14/01/2023 13:11, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> I still think this is the worst idea I致e heard this year (so far)
>>
>>The one I keep seeing that confuses me is references to 12:00am (or
>>12:00pm).
>>
>>I have no clue which is noon and which is midnight.
>>
>>Andy
>
>Those are artificial anyway, created by the early LED clock makers. 12
>PM is noon, and 12AM is midnight.

... except it turns out that there isn't really any standard on this issue.

https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/noon-12-am-or-12-pm reminds that
'am' means 'ante meridiem' and 'pm' 'post meridiem' - i.e., before and
after noon, respectively. noon is very much not 12 hours either before
or after itself, so neither '12 am' nor '12 pm' apply.

Wikipedia meanwhile at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock#Confusion_at_noon_and_midnight
documents some of the various ways in which 12 am and 12 pm are used in
opposite ways.

'noon' and 'midnight' seem to be the only safe ways to refer to, well,
noon and midnight in the context of a 12-hour clock.

// Christian

[Vir Campestris]

On 16/01/2023 17:03, Christian Brunschen wrote:
> 'noon' and 'midnight' seem to be the only safe ways to refer to, well,
> noon and midnight in the context of a 12-hour clock.

Alternatively refer to 11:59 or 12:01, where it is clear and probably
close enough.

Andy

[songbird]

D.J wrote:
...

> I've hear people do it redundantly.
>
> "Its 12 PM Noon."
>
> Which, is very silly.

i keep my clocks on 24hr time if there's an option to do
that.


songbird

[Charlie Gibbs]

If an airplane crashes right on the Canada/U.S. border,
where do they bury the survivors?

[D.J.]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 17:47:32 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>On 2023-01-16, Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 14/01/2023 13:11, Peter Flass wrote:
>>

>>> I still think this is the worst idea I致e heard this year (so far)

>>
>> The one I keep seeing that confuses me is references to 12:00am (or
>> 12:00pm).
>>
>> I have no clue which is noon and which is midnight.
>
>If an airplane crashes right on the Canada/U.S. border,
>where do they bury the survivors?

They send them to hospital, then home.
--
Jim

[D.J.]

There ya go, bringing facts into the discussion...

Anyway, I was unaware of that. Thanks.
--
Jim

[Scott Lurndal]

ante is latin for before
post is latin for after
peri is latin for now

Meridian is 'noon'.

Post meridian (pm) is after noon.
Ante Meridian (am) is before noon.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 17:03:21 -0000 (UTC), Christian Brunschen wrote:
>
> In article <36sash1a624p0iqbm...@4ax.com>,
> D.J. <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 12:23:22 +0000, Vir Campestris
>><vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>On 14/01/2023 13:11, Peter Flass wrote:

>>>> I still think this is the worst idea I’ve heard this year (so far)

>>>
>>>The one I keep seeing that confuses me is references to 12:00am (or
>>>12:00pm).
>>>
>>>I have no clue which is noon and which is midnight.
>>>
>>>Andy
>>
>>Those are artificial anyway, created by the early LED clock makers. 12
>>PM is noon, and 12AM is midnight.
>
> ... except it turns out that there isn't really any standard on this issue.
>
> https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/noon-12-am-or-12-pm reminds that
> 'am' means 'ante meridiem' and 'pm' 'post meridiem' - i.e., before and
> after noon, respectively. noon is very much not 12 hours either before
> or after itself, so neither '12 am' nor '12 pm' apply.

But then you have to learn and memorize what "meridiem" [1] and "ante" means.

> Wikipedia meanwhile at
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock#Confusion_at_noon_and_midnight
> documents some of the various ways in which 12 am and 12 pm are used in
> opposite ways.
>
> 'noon' and 'midnight' seem to be the only safe ways to refer to, well,
> noon and midnight in the context of a 12-hour clock.

My cheap-ish radio clock here only has two segments for the left most
part. It can display a 1 or if off. A little red dot comes on all 12
hours and is off the following 12.

My even cheaper microwave clock tries to be sneaky. It has four fully
equipped 7-segment units (I can set the timer to 88:88 if I wanted to
burn some stuff), but the clock is 12 only. It doesn't even bother
lighting up a small dot to indicate whether it's AM or PM.

If the 12 AM/PM and 24 hour fan boys want to come to an agreement what to
use in future it should be 24 in my opinion. Easier to learn for the
AM/PMers than the other way round. Plus military uses that since
"always", also NATO and US troops.

[1] Merriam-Webster says it means "midday". I rarely ran across the term
"midday" already.
--
Andreas

[Bob Eager]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 17:47:32 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2023-01-16, Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 14/01/2023 13:11, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> I still think this is the worst idea I’ve heard this year (so far)
>>
>> The one I keep seeing that confuses me is references to 12:00am (or
>> 12:00pm).
>>
>> I have no clue which is noon and which is midnight.
>
> If an airplane crashes right on the Canada/U.S. border,
> where do they bury the survivors?

Wherever they eventually die.

[songbird]

right, we get that, but what is noon noon called
and why is it mislabeled all the time? :)

*tongue somewhat in cheek*

what it obviously should be is:

23:59:59pm -> 00:00:00sm -> 00:00:01am [ time goeth on ]

11:59:59am -> 12:00:00[n|m]m -> 12:00:01pm

satus (in latin) = start (english)

nunc (in latin) = now (english) or
middle (in latin) = medium (english)

i prefer the "n" version since it can't be confused
with "a", "p", "m" or "s"


songbird (noodling for fun...

[Scott Lurndal]

songbird <song...@anthive.com> writes:
>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>On 14/01/2023 13:11, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> I still think this is the worst idea I’ve heard this year (so far)
>>>
>>>The one I keep seeing that confuses me is references to 12:00am (or
>>>12:00pm).
>>>
>>>I have no clue which is noon and which is midnight.
>>
>> ante is latin for before
>> post is latin for after
>> peri is latin for now
>>
>> Meridian is 'noon'.

(mispelled, should be Meridiem (mid day)).

>>
>> Post meridian (pm) is after noon.
>> Ante Meridian (am) is before noon.
>
> right, we get that, but what is noon noon called
>and why is it mislabeled all the time? :)

Perimeridiem :-)

[Peter Flass]

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 17:47:32 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> On 2023-01-16, Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/01/2023 13:11, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>>> I still think this is the worst idea I’ve heard this year (so far)
>>>
>>> The one I keep seeing that confuses me is references to 12:00am (or
>>> 12:00pm).
>>>
>>> I have no clue which is noon and which is midnight.
>>
>> If an airplane crashes right on the Canada/U.S. border,
>> where do they bury the survivors?
>

> A similar problem came up in the French-Canadian movie Bon Cop Bad Cop
> from 2006, when a dead body hung over the road sign between Ontario and
> Quebec. So two cops came from either province showed up. The cop of the
> side the lower body hung said something like "His ass is ours". *g*

“Der Pass”, titled “Pagan Peak” in the US has a similar situation with a
body on the border between Germany and Austria.

--
Pete

[Rich Alderson]

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:

[ snip ]

> But then you have to learn and memorize what "meridiem" [1] and "ante" means.

[ snip ]

> [1] Merriam-Webster says it means "midday". I rarely ran across the term
> "midday" already.

Yes, the Latin word is a compound of (the stem of) _medius/a/um_ "middle" and
_dies_ "day". The _r_ derives from a dissimilation of ...d...d... in rapid
speech (cf. the "veddy" pronunciation of English _very_ in old fashioned upper
class British contexts, or the English word _porridge_ derived from older
_pottage_).

English _midday_ is obsolescent, verging on archaic, but still not unknown to
native speakers.

--
Rich Alderson ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

[Rich Alderson]

There is a similar plot point in the Swedish/Danish film "The Bridge" ("Broen"),
remade by IIRC the BBC as "The Tunnel". I leave it to the reader to figure out
which tunnel...

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 12:23:22 +0000
Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> The one I keep seeing that confuses me is references to 12:00am (or
> 12:00pm).

Yep, I usually go with noon or midnight.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

[Mike Spencer]

sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Perimeridiem :-)

That would mean, vaguely, "somewhere in the general vicinity of
midday" or "noonish".

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

[johnson]

meridian ≠ meridiem

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On 16 Jan 2023 18:34:40 -0500

Rich Alderson <ne...@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:

> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 17:47:32 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
> >>> If an airplane crashes right on the Canada/U.S. border,
> >>> where do they bury the survivors?
>
> >> A similar problem came up in the French-Canadian movie Bon Cop Bad Cop
> >> from 2006, when a dead body hung over the road sign between Ontario and
> >> Quebec. So two cops came from either province showed up. The cop of the
> >> side the lower body hung said something like "His ass is ours". *g*
>

> > “Der Passâ€_, titled “Pagan Peakâ€_ in the US has

> > a similar situation with a body on the border between Germany and Austria.
>
> There is a similar plot point in the Swedish/Danish film "The Bridge" ("Broen"),
> remade by IIRC the BBC as "The Tunnel". I leave it to the reader to figure out
> which tunnel...
>

There was a real-life (TM) squabble for Otzi, despite the border having
been defined 5,000 years after his death.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[greymaus]

Funny how the whole thing was settled before History began. I think that
an attempt was made during the French Revolution,, something like week
being refined as ten days. Didn't last. In one book, the reason that the
reformation failed in France was that it eliminated holy days, which
under the old system was the time that the peasants were able to work on
their own plots, over fifty per year, I think.

Why was the circle defined as 360 degress? The answer is probably buried
under the sands of Sumer. Some of the US soldiers that served in 'Iraq
said there are millions of cuniform tablets still lying around there.


--
grey...@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

[Charles Richmond]

On 1/16/2023 9:45 AM, D.J. wrote:

[snip...] [snip...] [snip...]

> Those are artificial anyway, created by the early LED clock makers. 12
> PM is noon, and 12AM is midnight.
>
> I've hear people do it redundantly.
>
> "Its 12 PM Noon."
>
> Which, is very silly.
>

Let's *not* call "12 PM Noon" redundant or silly... it is just
"emphatic", to avoid the misunderstanding of whether AM or PM is noon.

--

Charles Richmond


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