Re: Interesting News Article

[John F. Eldredge]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:43:48 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:

> On 23/06/12 11:21 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote
>>>>> Morten Reistad wrote
>>
>>>>>> Medicine&pharmasuiticals have had huge progress since 1960. We beat
>>>>>> smallpox and polio, and have gotten scores of other crippling
>>>>>> diseases under control or at least managable.
>>
>>>>> On the other hand, some diseases like TB and malaria have never
>>>>> really gone away,
>>
>>>> No one ever said that we eliminated all medical problems. There
>>>> clearly has been a hell of a lot of progress in other than computers
>>>> since the 1960s tho, THAT'S what was being discussed.
>>
>>>> Lot of progress with vaccination since then too.
>>
>>>>> while others are becoming so resistant to antibiotics that unless we
>>>>> can keep on discovering new ones, they may become useless in our
>>>>> lifetimes.
>>
>>>> I doubt they will become useless myself. And antibiotics arent the
>>>> only way to deal with them anyway.
>>
>>> There has been immense progress in the last ten years,
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>> but I do wonder whether some of the older problems have been forgotten
>>> in the euphoria of new discovery.
>>
>> I don't believe that's true with the most antibiotic resistant diseases
>> like TB and MRSA.
>>
>>> Some hospitals have now almost given up hope of getting rid of their
>>> endemic infections,
>>
>> Not in the first world they havent with stuff like MRSA and TB.
>>
>>> and the current wave of refugees are bringing back old diseases that
>>> we had almost forgotten about.
>>
>> Sure, but that's happened for almost half a century now.
>>
>>> By the time we are dead, they will have discovered how to prevent
>>> whatever we died of.
>>
>> We already know that with what most of us die of.
>>
>> That doesn't see most of us doing anything about it tho with obesity
>> particularly.
>>
>> We have made a lot of progress with smoking tho in the first world.
>
> We now have new problems: they keep on discovering new diseases. I
> presume they were always there, but mistaken for something else. One of
> the good things is the way they are finding older, sometimes despised
> drugs are proving useful in the treatment of other illnesses.

I had a MRSA infection a couple of years ago; they cured it with sulfa
antibiotics, the sort of thing that was used before penicillin was
discovered.

--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly
is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

[John F. Eldredge]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 12:32:01 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:

> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 24/06/12 9:08 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>> On 6/24/12 1:30 AM, Dave Garland wrote:
>>>> On 6/23/2012 10:47 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not aware of any post war washing machine that couldn't heat the
>>>>> water, so the worst that approach would see is that you have to pay
>>>>> for the hot water to be heated by the washing machine.
>>>>
>>>> You're not aware of North American washing machines, then. Because
>>>> ours don't heat the water. They assume (and it is a reasonable
>>>> assumption in this part of the world) that you're plumbed for both
>>>> hot & cold water.
>>>>
>>>> Having the water heated by the washing machine would probably mean
>>>> costly electric resistance heating.
>>>
>>>
>>> But would cut down on the number of houses in which running the
>>> washing machine can lead to someone's shower suddenly going to ice
>>> water.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Plumbing is a bit like a branch of black magic. In some houses, the
>> shower will go ice-cold whenever anybody turns a tap on whether it's a
>> hot tap or a cold tap. In other houses, it depends on which tap is
>> turned on - whether the kitchen or another bathroom. In others, your
>> shower can go icy to boiling and back again for no apparent reason at
>> all.
>>
> I figured that one out. Some plumbers don't know the difference between
> serial and parallel circuit flows. I could not convince one plumber to
> put in a parallel; had to be a series. He didn't get the job.
>
> /BAH

That reminds me of living in a college dormitory. If anyone flushed a
toilet, the shower water would immediately become much hotter. The
custom was for anyone about to flush a toilet to call out a warning.
However, if the person flushing the toilet was on a different floor than
the person showering, you didn't get any warning.

[John F. Eldredge]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 17:16:48 -0600, Greg Goss wrote:

> Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>
>>I remember when we moved out of our house in Seattle; the movers were
>>very curious as to how we'd ever gotten a refrigerator into the basement
>>of the house we were renting. It was probably a mistake on my part to
>>mention the friend with a dislocated finger and broken watch. As far as
>>I know that fridge is still there.
>
> It's a standard rule for movers. "If it's in here, they got it in here
> somewhere. So we just have to do the same thing in reverse." In my
> mover days, we ran into that a few times. A friend's sectional in an
> odd second-floor walkup took about the same as the entire rest of his
> move-in and again on his move-out. When I moved across the country in a
> U-Haul in 2003, my sister-in-law completed the clean-up for sale of the
> townhouse. My instructions were that the basement hide-a-bed sofa would
> go with the townhouse for sale, but she removed it with the aid of an
> axe, prybar and hacksaw. She may have been right. I considered that
> couch to have marginal positive value on the move-in, but the next owner
> might have disagreed.

When I was a teenager, we moved into a house that had a full, concrete-
floored basement, so my father decided to move the washing machine down
there. We had to take the basement door off of its hinges in order to
gain the last half-inch of space needed to get the washing machine
through the doorway, and the basement stairs groaned ominously when
subjected to the load of two people, a handcart, and the washing
machine. Then, when we moved out a few years later, we had to go through
the same difficult procedure in reverse. We were lucky the stairs didn't
break under the load.

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

"John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com> writes:
> That reminds me of living in a college dormitory. If anyone flushed a
> toilet, the shower water would immediately become much hotter. The
> custom was for anyone about to flush a toilet to call out a warning.
> However, if the person flushing the toilet was on a different floor than
> the person showering, you didn't get any warning.

berkeley folklore about cdc 6600 having thermal shutdown some time every
week ... loss of cooling in the machine room. eventually they determined
that it was morning class break at the same time lawn sprinklers were
going ... combination of all the toilets flushing and the sprinklers
dropped water pressure to datacenter cooling.

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

[Howard Brazee]

On 27 Aug 2012 01:35:39 GMT, "John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com>
wrote:

>When I was a teenager, we moved into a house that had a full, concrete-
>floored basement, so my father decided to move the washing machine down
>there. We had to take the basement door off of its hinges in order to
>gain the last half-inch of space needed to get the washing machine
>through the doorway, and the basement stairs groaned ominously when
>subjected to the load of two people, a handcart, and the washing
>machine. Then, when we moved out a few years later, we had to go through
>the same difficult procedure in reverse. We were lucky the stairs didn't
>break under the load.

Most people in that case, leave the washer behind.

I had a friend who died moving a washer to the basement, when it
slipped and he hit his head.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[John F. Eldredge]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 05:24:37 +0300, Juho Julkunen wrote:

> In article <20120622224345....@eircom.net>,
> ste...@eircom.net says...
>>
>> On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:34:41 +0300
>> Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Then threading the exhaust hose under the shower stall to lead into
>> > the floor drain (with a little detour to get the hose to the required
>> > height).
>>
>> It's usually easier to feed it into the kitchen sink drain.
>
> I'm not sure I've ever been in a house or an apartment where that would
> have been the case. I guess people someplaces else have washing machines
> in the kitchen, then?

My parents' house, built in the 1920's, had a glass-walled "sunroom" at
the rear of the house, plumbed for the washing machine. However, it
proved to be rather expensive to keep this room heated enough in the
winter time to keep the plumbing from freezing, so my father had the
plumbing to that room disconnected, and moved the washing machine to the
kitchen. He replaced the sink faucets with threaded faucets that the
washing machine hoses could connect to, and the drain hose from the
washing machine hooked over the edge of the kitchen sink. On a few
memorable occasions, the vibrations of the running washing machine walked
the drain hose up the side of the sink, causing the hose to fall to the
kitchen floor and make a flood. My mother had a clothes line in the back
yard for use in warm weather, and hung laundry on a line in the attic in
cold weather. If she had a particularly big load of wash to do, my
father would also string up a laundry line through the kitchen and dining
room. Eventually, he left that downstairs clothes line in place all of
the time, and I got used to having to duck under it when I visited him.

[John F. Eldredge]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 13:44:48 +1000, Rod Speed wrote:

> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote

>>> Harry Vaderchi <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote
>>>> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com>wrote
>>>>> Juho Julkunen wrote

>
>>>>>> I'm not sure I've ever been in a house or an apartment where that
>>>>>> would have been the case. I guess people someplaces else have
>>>>>> washing machines in the kitchen, then?
>

>>>>> It was quite common in England when I still lived there. Others had
>>>>> them in the bathroom. Some older houses had a kind of outhouse that
>>>>> served.
>
>>>> I'd say it's the default; only recently have regs been relaxed to
>>>> permit washing machines (or more correctly the high voltage mains
>>>> line) in the bathroom (by which we mean a room with a bath, not just
>>>> a toilet)
>
>>> That’s more because of the rather nutty ban on electrical outlets in
>>> the bathroom that britain had for a very long time.
>
>> Less nutty than the power outlet I have in my Australian house which is
>> just above the cold tap of the handbasin where it can easily be
>> splashed.
>
> That’s not standards compliant. Its mad to ban power outlets completely.

For truly insane, look at the position of the electric outlet in this
photograph: <http://thereifixedit.failblog.org/2012/01/17/white-trash-
repairs-homicidal-outlet/>

[Joe Pfeiffer]

"John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com> writes:

> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 14:17:29 -0400, David DeLaney wrote:
>
>> Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> wrote:
>>>The surge in steel, copper and aluminium prices we saw from 2009 onwards
>>>has led to teams of collectors roaming the countrysides picking up old
>>>car wrecks, white goods etc. for the scrap vaue.
>>
>> And, unfortunately, sometimes electrical wiring (live or not), manhole
>> covers, steel beams from construction sites, old bridges that nobody
>> happened to be watching right then, etc.
>>
>> Sometimes the effort involved causes the punishment to fit the crime.
>>
>> Dave
>
> I remember, a couple of months ago, reading about some metal thieves in
> Detroit that collapsed a vacant commercial building onto themselves by
> trying to steal a load-bearing I-beam.

Karma is, indeed, a bitch.

[Charles Bishop]

[snip-missed this post the first time]

>On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 17:16:48 -0600, Greg Goss wrote:
>
>> Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>I remember when we moved out of our house in Seattle; the movers were
>>>very curious as to how we'd ever gotten a refrigerator into the basement
>>>of the house we were renting. It was probably a mistake on my part to
>>>mention the friend with a dislocated finger and broken watch. As far as
>>>I know that fridge is still there.
>>
>> It's a standard rule for movers. "If it's in here, they got it in here
>> somewhere. So we just have to do the same thing in reverse."

I'm sorry Candid Camera didn't find you. They had movers bring a box up to
the 2nd floor and put it inside a room. It just barely went through the
doorway After the movers left, they hid this box and brought out a similar
looking box that was slightly larger in all directions and so wouldn't fit
through the doorway, even with the door or doorstop off.

They caught the movers before they left and explained that the box was in
the wrong room, could they please come back up and move it to another
room.

Hilarity ensues, unless you're the movers, I guess.

--
charles

[Rod Speed]

John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote

Yeah, pretty bizarre.

[Morten Reistad]

In article <a9vvv8...@mid.individual.net>,

John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 12:32:01 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>
>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>> On 24/06/12 9:08 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>> On 6/24/12 1:30 AM, Dave Garland wrote:

>>>> But would cut down on the number of houses in which running the
>>>> washing machine can lead to someone's shower suddenly going to ice
>>>> water.

This is easy to solve with a small buffer tank in the system, but it
is not part of the plumber's toolchest. On boats it is standard issue,
though.

>>> Plumbing is a bit like a branch of black magic. In some houses, the
>>> shower will go ice-cold whenever anybody turns a tap on whether it's a
>>> hot tap or a cold tap. In other houses, it depends on which tap is
>>> turned on - whether the kitchen or another bathroom. In others, your
>>> shower can go icy to boiling and back again for no apparent reason at
>>> all.
>>>
>> I figured that one out. Some plumbers don't know the difference between
>> serial and parallel circuit flows. I could not convince one plumber to
>> put in a parallel; had to be a series. He didn't get the job.

Parallell water pipes? Somehow I sense that an explanation is lost here?

>> /BAH
>
>That reminds me of living in a college dormitory. If anyone flushed a
>toilet, the shower water would immediately become much hotter. The
>custom was for anyone about to flush a toilet to call out a warning.
>However, if the person flushing the toilet was on a different floor than
>the person showering, you didn't get any warning.

This describes a system throttled by intake capacity for the cold
water, but where the heater keeps buffering hot water. It only
takes a ~50L tank filled to ~80% capacity with a pressurised air
buffer on top, this can supply the critical 5-8 liters of water
back to the system pretty fast when the pressure drops.

There are also flow effects in T-joints which "terrestrial"
plumbers generally don't understand, but which are analysed on
all ship constructions.

And fludistor[*] based thermostats for water mixing are cheap to
make and have been generally available for half a century. These
take a few hundred milliseconds to get the flow and exit temperature
back to a reasonable state when someone plays with the water.

-- mrr

[*] Fludistor, like a transistor; only using water instead of electrons.
Makes it easy to make amplification steps for stuff like thermostats,
and it is all just water flows. The only moving parts are the thermostat
sensor and the adjustment knob.

[jmfbahciv]

I have never understoody why plumbers don't realize how to fix these kinds
of problems. Another one is capacity. If you wnat to feed a dozen
sprinklers at a time, you don't lay a 1" or 2" pipe for the initial inflow.
I also like to have a vent for each drain but doesn't happen either.

/BAH

[jmfbahciv]

Morten Reistad wrote:
> In article <a9vvv8...@mid.individual.net>,
> John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 12:32:01 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>
>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>> On 24/06/12 9:08 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>>> On 6/24/12 1:30 AM, Dave Garland wrote:
>
>>>>> But would cut down on the number of houses in which running the
>>>>> washing machine can lead to someone's shower suddenly going to ice
>>>>> water.
>
>
> This is easy to solve with a small buffer tank in the system, but it
> is not part of the plumber's toolchest. On boats it is standard issue,
> though.
>
>>>> Plumbing is a bit like a branch of black magic. In some houses, the
>>>> shower will go ice-cold whenever anybody turns a tap on whether it's a
>>>> hot tap or a cold tap. In other houses, it depends on which tap is
>>>> turned on - whether the kitchen or another bathroom. In others, your
>>>> shower can go icy to boiling and back again for no apparent reason at
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>> I figured that one out. Some plumbers don't know the difference between
>>> serial and parallel circuit flows. I could not convince one plumber to
>>> put in a parallel; had to be a series. He didn't get the job.
>
> Parallell water pipes? Somehow I sense that an explanation is lost here?

<snip>

You have one pipe going to the kitchen (assuming that uses the most
water). Anything requiring water beyond that pipe can only get
the water not used by the kitchen. If it's important to have a reasonable
supply of water beyond the kitchen, two pipes should be run with the common
pipe they come from larger than the two.

/BAH

[jmfbahciv]

John F. Eldredge wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 05:24:37 +0300, Juho Julkunen wrote:
>
>> In article <20120622224345....@eircom.net>,
>> ste...@eircom.net says...
>>>
>>> On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:34:41 +0300
>>> Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> > Then threading the exhaust hose under the shower stall to lead into
>>> > the floor drain (with a little detour to get the hose to the required
>>> > height).
>>>
>>> It's usually easier to feed it into the kitchen sink drain.
>>

>> I'm not sure I've ever been in a house or an apartment where that would
>> have been the case. I guess people someplaces else have washing machines
>> in the kitchen, then?
>

> My parents' house, built in the 1920's, had a glass-walled "sunroom" at
> the rear of the house, plumbed for the washing machine. However, it
> proved to be rather expensive to keep this room heated enough in the
> winter time to keep the plumbing from freezing, so my father had the
> plumbing to that room disconnected, and moved the washing machine to the
> kitchen. He replaced the sink faucets with threaded faucets that the
> washing machine hoses could connect to, and the drain hose from the
> washing machine hooked over the edge of the kitchen sink. On a few
> memorable occasions, the vibrations of the running washing machine walked
> the drain hose up the side of the sink, causing the hose to fall to the
> kitchen floor and make a flood. My mother had a clothes line in the back
> yard for use in warm weather, and hung laundry on a line in the attic in
> cold weather. If she had a particularly big load of wash to do, my
> father would also string up a laundry line through the kitchen and dining
> room. Eventually, he left that downstairs clothes line in place all of
> the time, and I got used to having to duck under it when I visited him.
>

We hung the clothes out to dry even when it was cold. The ones which
didn't dry (or if it was snowing) were hung on the clothes line in
the basement. The wringer washer was in the basement. My mother didn't
get a dryer until my brother replaced his and gave her his old one.

/BAH

[Scott Lurndal]

jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> writes:

>John F. Eldredge wrote:

>> That reminds me of living in a college dormitory. If anyone flushed a
>> toilet, the shower water would immediately become much hotter. The
>> custom was for anyone about to flush a toilet to call out a warning.
>> However, if the person flushing the toilet was on a different floor than
>> the person showering, you didn't get any warning.
>
>I have never understoody why plumbers don't realize how to fix these kinds
>of problems.

They've known since the 70's, as was pointed out to you back in june
when this thread was active. Simple pressure-balenced valves are required
in most building codes today, and they're very effective at alleviating the
sudden bursts of cold or hot water when pressure changes occur in the
system.

> Another one is capacity. If you wnat to feed a dozen
>sprinklers at a time, you don't lay a 1" or 2" pipe for the initial inflow.

Actually, two inch pipe is likely overkill for a dozen [lawn] sprinklers. For
fire sprinklers, it's probably pretty close (although, unlike on TV, when one
fire sprinkler triggers, it doesn't automatically trigger the remaining sprinklers).

But, every real plumber has known how to calculate the size of the pipe
based on GPM and pressure requirements since, well, day one.

>I also like to have a vent for each drain but doesn't happen either.

Code has certain requirements regarding venting of Sewer, Drain and Waste
pipe, which generally, but not always, requires a vent per stack. Note that
center kitchen islands are exempt for obvious reasons.

scott

[Patrick Scheible]

They do, high priced hotels have had it fixed for a century. But the
college dorm was built by the low bidder and planned by people who won't
be living there.

-- Patrick

[lawr...@gandi.cluon.com]

sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
> Code has certain requirements regarding venting of Sewer, Drain and Waste
> pipe, which generally, but not always, requires a vent per stack. Note that
> center kitchen islands are exempt for obvious reasons.

In California, they're not ... A vent is still required, and there are
specific requirements about how far the loop for the vent line must be above the
point where the trap feeds into the drain line.

(you'll need a monospace font for this ASCII art to show)

vent
||
||
||
||
countertop ||
-------------------- ||
//==\\ ||
sink || || ||
|| || ||
|| == | || ||
|| // || || ||
|| || || || ||
\\==// || || horizontal run ||
|| \\======================//
||
||
||
to sewer

---NK1G

[Michael Stemper]

In article <ctbishop-260...@global-66-81-248-18.dialup.o1.com>, ctbi...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) writes:
>>On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 17:16:48 -0600, Greg Goss wrote:
>>> Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:

>>>>I remember when we moved out of our house in Seattle; the movers were
>>>>very curious as to how we'd ever gotten a refrigerator into the basement
>>>>of the house we were renting.

>>> It's a standard rule for movers. "If it's in here, they got it in here
>>> somewhere. So we just have to do the same thing in reverse."
>
>I'm sorry Candid Camera didn't find you. They had movers bring a box up to
>the 2nd floor and put it inside a room. It just barely went through the
>doorway After the movers left, they hid this box and brought out a similar
>looking box that was slightly larger in all directions and so wouldn't fit
>through the doorway, even with the door or doorstop off.

How did they get it in there in the first place, then?

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Life's too important to take seriously.

[Rod Speed]

jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote
> John F. Eldredge wrote

>> jmfbahciv wrote
>>> Robert Bannister wrote

>>>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote

>>>>> Dave Garland wrote

>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any post war washing machine that couldn't heat
>>>>>>> the water, so the worst that approach would see is that you have
>>>>>>> to pay for the hot water to be heated by the washing machine.

>>>>>> You're not aware of North American washing machines, then.
>>>>>> Because ours don't heat the water. They assume (and it is a
>>>>>> reasonable assumption in this part of the world) that you're
>>>>>> plumbed for both hot & cold water.

>>>>>> Having the water heated by the washing machine would
>>>>>> probably mean costly electric resistance heating.

>>>>> But would cut down on the number of houses in
>>>>> which running the washing machine can lead to
>>>>> someone's shower suddenly going to ice water.

>>>> Plumbing is a bit like a branch of black magic. In some houses, the
>>>> shower will go ice-cold whenever anybody turns a tap on whether it's a
>>>> hot tap or a cold tap. In other houses, it depends on which tap is
>>>> turned
>>>> on - whether the kitchen or another bathroom. In others, your shower
>>>> can go icy to boiling and back again for no apparent reason at all.

>>> I figured that one out. Some plumbers don't know the difference
>>> between serial and parallel circuit flows. I could not convince one
>>> plumber to put in a parallel; had to be a series. He didn't get the
>>> job.

>> That reminds me of living in a college dormitory. If anyone flushed
>> a toilet, the shower water would immediately become much hotter.
>> The custom was for anyone about to flush a toilet to call out a
>> warning. However, if the person flushing the toilet was on a different
>> floor than the person showering, you didn't get any warning.

> I have never understoody why plumbers don't realize how to fix these kinds
> of problems.

The better ones always do. Like with anything else, its only
something like 5% or maybe 10% that are the better ones.

Some of those situations are harder to get right than others.

> Another one is capacity. If you wnat to feed a dozen sprinklers
> at a time, you don't lay a 1" or 2" pipe for the initial inflow.

And that’s done with fire sprinkler systems.

> I also like to have a vent for each drain but doesn't happen either.

There's no need for that. One at the extreme end of each run is all you
need.

[Rod Speed]

jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote
> Morten Reistad wrote

>> John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote

>>> jmfbahciv wrote
>>>> Robert Bannister wrote

>>>>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote

>>>>>> Dave Garland wrote

>>>>>> But would cut down on the number of houses in
>>>>>> which running the washing machine can lead to
>>>>>> someone's shower suddenly going to ice water.

>> This is easy to solve with a small buffer tank in the system, but it
>> is not part of the plumber's toolchest. On boats it is standard issue,
>> though.

>>>>> Plumbing is a bit like a branch of black magic. In some houses, the
>>>>> shower will go ice-cold whenever anybody turns a tap on whether it's a
>>>>> hot tap or a cold tap. In other houses, it depends on which tap is
>>>>> turned
>>>>> on - whether the kitchen or another bathroom. In others, your shower
>>>>> can go icy to boiling and back again for no apparent reason at all.

>>>> I figured that one out. Some plumbers don't know the difference
>>>> between serial and parallel circuit flows. I could not convince one
>>>> plumber to put in a parallel; had to be a series. He didn't get the
>>>> job.

>> Parallell water pipes? Somehow I sense that an explanation is lost here?

> You have one pipe going to the kitchen (assuming that
> uses the most water). Anything requiring water beyond
> that pipe can only get the water not used by the kitchen.

That’s not right.

> If it's important to have a reasonable supply of water beyond the kitchen,
> two
> pipes should be run with the common pipe they come from larger than the
> two.

Nope, my place doesn’t have that with either kitchen, and it works fine.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

As a flat pack I imagine, assemble, fill, seal.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

[Charles Bishop]

In article <PM0004C84...@ac83428a.ipt.aol.com>, jmfbahciv

Or, you have a larger diameter pipe going to the kitchen so that it can
supply the kitchen, with enough left over for anything teed (tee'd?) off
of the kitchen.

I haven't done one yet, but I've seen specs for PEX tubing that has a
manifold coming off the main supply with essentially parallel lines
running to individual bathrooms, kitchen, laundry rooms, etc.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

Are they exempt? I've seen designs for a vent for an island. Also,
sometimes the island has a "wall" at one end for plumbing and electrical.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

Probably built it in place.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <aa1s9k...@mid.individual.net>, "Rod Speed"
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote

[snip]

>
>> I also like to have a vent for each drain but doesn't happen either.
>
>There's no need for that. One at the extreme end of each run is all you
>need.

Here there are code requirements for how far away the vent can be from the
drain.

--
chalres

[Rod Speed]

Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote

>>> I also like to have a vent for each drain but doesn't happen either.

>> There's no need for that. One at the extreme end of each run is all you
>> need.

> Here there are code requirements for how far away the vent can be from the
> drain.

Sure, but no requirement for a vent on each drain.

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:36:42 +0000 (UTC),
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:

>>I'm sorry Candid Camera didn't find you. They had movers bring a box up to
>>the 2nd floor and put it inside a room. It just barely went through the
>>doorway After the movers left, they hid this box and brought out a similar
>>looking box that was slightly larger in all directions and so wouldn't fit
>>through the doorway, even with the door or doorstop off.
>
>How did they get it in there in the first place, then?

Lots of ways, provided they have the time and money. Walls could be
built after putting it in the closet.

Removing bath tubs is interesting - cast iron bath tubs get broken
with a sledge hammer, steal tubs get cut with a power hack saw. But
that's only if you are not replacing them with the same sized tub.

[Charles Richmond]

"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004C84...@ac83428a.ipt.aol.com...
>
> [snip...] [snip...]
> [snip...]

>
> I have never understoody why plumbers don't realize how to fix these kinds
> of problems. Another one is capacity. If you wnat to feed a dozen
> sprinklers at a time, you don't lay a 1" or 2" pipe for the initial
> inflow.
> I also like to have a vent for each drain but doesn't happen either.
>

My old daddy used to say:

"People in hell want snow water... but they don't get it either."

He was really *not* a hard man. He got such sayings from his dad, who *was*
pretty hard on his kids.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

[Walter Banks]

lawr...@gandi.cluon.com wrote:

> sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
> > Code has certain requirements regarding venting of Sewer, Drain and Waste
> > pipe, which generally, but not always, requires a vent per stack. Note that
> > center kitchen islands are exempt for obvious reasons.
>
> In California, they're not ... A vent is still required, and there are
> specific requirements about how far the loop for the vent line must be above the
> point where the trap feeds into the drain line.

Wouldn't the horizontal run get filled with water
over time from condensation?

Island sinks here can go to a vent or have an in island
one way air valve. I used the later on an island my home
it works just fine.

The pipe to the vent here can be connected anywhere
after the sink trap. The vent from the bathroom and kitchen
sink here is connected about 4 or five inches lower
than the trap.

w..

[Rod Speed]

Walter Banks <wal...@bytecraft.com> wrote

> lawr...@gandi.cluon.com wrote
>> sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

>>> Code has certain requirements regarding venting of Sewer, Drain and
>>> Waste
>>> pipe, which generally, but not always, requires a vent per stack. Note
>>> that
>>> center kitchen islands are exempt for obvious reasons.

>> In California, they're not ... A vent is still required, and there are
>> specific requirements about how far the loop for the vent line
>> must be above the point where the trap feeds into the drain line.

> Wouldn't the horizontal run get filled with water
> over time from condensation?

Nope, because they arent horizontal, they have to
have a slope unless it's a pumped drain system.

[Scott Lurndal]

The procedure below is followed by an explanation of each step with appropriate examples.
(1) Assume a pipe diameter.
(2) Determine the flow rate:
(a) by using loading units;
(b) for continuous flows;
(c) obtain the design flow rate by adding (a) and (b).
(3) Determine the effective pipe length:
(d) work out the measured pipe length;
(e) work out the equivalent pipe length for fittings;
(f) work out the equivalent pipe length for draw-offs;
(g) obtain the effective pipe length by adding (d), (e) and (f).
(4) Calculate the permissible loss of head:
(h) determine the available head:
(i) determine the head loss per metre run through pipes;
(j) determine the head loss through fittings;
(k) calculate the permissible head loss.
(5) Determine the pipe diameter:
(l) decide whether the assumed pipe size will give the design flow rate in (c) without
exceeding the permissible head loss in (k).


Outlet fitting Design flow rate Minimum Loading
flow rate units
l/s l/s

WC flushing cistern single or dual flush ­ 0.13 0.05 2
to fill in 2 minutes
WC trough cistern 0.15 per WC 0.10 2
1
Wash basin tap size ­ 2
­ DN 15 0.15 per tap 0.10 1.5 to 3
Spray tap or spray mixer 0.05 per tap 0.03 ­
Bidet 0.20 per tap 0.10 1
3
Bath tap, nominal size ­ 4
­ DN 20 0.30 0.20 10
Bath tap, nominal size 1 ­ DN 25 0.60 0.40 22
Shower head (will vary with type of head) 0.20 hot or cold 0.10 3
1
Sink tap, nominal size ­ 2
­ DN 15 0.20 0.10 3
3
Sink tap, nominal size ­
4
­ DN 20 0.30 0.20 5
Sink tap, nominal size 1 ­ DN 20 0.60 0.40 ­
Washing machine size ­ DN 15 0.20 hot or cold 0.15
Dishwasher size ­ DN 15 0.15 0.10 3
Urinal flushing cistern 0.004 per position served 0.002 ­
Pressure flushing valve for WC or urinal 1.5 1.2 ­

[Scott Lurndal]

They don't need a "dedicated" vent. They usually share a vent with a nearby
SWD stack.

scott

[Patrick Scheible]

Perhaps every generation says their dads were harder on them.

-- Patrick

[Scott Lurndal]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> writes:
>On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:36:42 +0000 (UTC),
>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
>>>I'm sorry Candid Camera didn't find you. They had movers bring a box up to
>>>the 2nd floor and put it inside a room. It just barely went through the
>>>doorway After the movers left, they hid this box and brought out a similar
>>>looking box that was slightly larger in all directions and so wouldn't fit
>>>through the doorway, even with the door or doorstop off.
>>
>>How did they get it in there in the first place, then?
>
>Lots of ways, provided they have the time and money. Walls could be
>built after putting it in the closet.
>
>Removing bath tubs is interesting - cast iron bath tubs get broken

>with a sledge hammer.

Do that to an old clawfoot, and you're throwing money away.

Fibreglass tubs get cut up because they're useless. Most modern
castiron tubs can be tilted on their side to remove, and a typical antique
clawfoot will fit through a standard 30" interior door.

scott

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:38:18 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>>Removing bath tubs is interesting - cast iron bath tubs get broken
>>with a sledge hammer.
>
>Do that to an old clawfoot, and you're throwing money away.
>
>Fibreglass tubs get cut up because they're useless. Most modern
>castiron tubs can be tilted on their side to remove, and a typical antique
>clawfoot will fit through a standard 30" interior door.

They don't always fit to be removed.

[lawr...@gandi.cluon.com]

Walter Banks <wal...@bytecraft.com> writes:

> lawr...@gandi.cluon.com wrote:
>
> Wouldn't the horizontal run get filled with water
> over time from condensation?
>

I'd never thought of that ... Perhaps there would be enough evaporation
during times that are conducive to that to make up for the times when
there would be condensation - I'd think that rainwater coming into the
ventline from a missing or defective rain-cap would be a more likely
source of water in horizontal vent-lines. I don't actually HAVE a copy
of the applicable code (I drew the sketch from memory of a "guideline
for Owner-Builders" given away for free by the Shasta County building
dep't - which is at my dad's house - 4000 km from here).

--NK1G

[Charles Bishop]

Oh. I misread it as not needing a vent at all.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

4 men and a dog to move it though. I had to take one down from the 2nd
floor. Don't want to do that again.

--
charles

[Charlie Gibbs]

In article <20120827201530....@eircom.net>,

ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot) writes:

> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:36:42 +0000 (UTC)
> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <ctbishop-260...@global-66-81-248-18.dialup.o1.com>,
>> ctbi...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) writes:
>>
>>>> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 17:16:48 -0600, Greg Goss wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember when we moved out of our house in Seattle; the movers
>>>>>> were very curious as to how we'd ever gotten a refrigerator into
>>>>>> the basement of the house we were renting.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a standard rule for movers. "If it's in here, they got it in
>>>>> here somewhere. So we just have to do the same thing in reverse."
>>>
>>> I'm sorry Candid Camera didn't find you. They had movers bring a box
>>> up to the 2nd floor and put it inside a room. It just barely went
>>> through the doorway After the movers left, they hid this box and
>>> brought out a similar looking box that was slightly larger in all
>>> directions and so wouldn't fit through the doorway, even with the
>>> door or doorstop off.
>>
>> How did they get it in there in the first place, then?
>
> As a flat pack I imagine, assemble, fill, seal.

IKEA strikes again!

And then there's that method suggested by Douglas Adams
in "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency"...

--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[jmfbahciv]

I didn't write well. I'm talking about a mini vent under the sink. I had
one in Mass and the water drained quickly every time.

/BAH

[jmfbahciv]

Right. But plumbing doesn't seem to do that either.

>
> I haven't done one yet, but I've seen specs for PEX tubing that has a
> manifold coming off the main supply with essentially parallel lines
> running to individual bathrooms, kitchen, laundry rooms, etc.

Yup. Parallel vs serial ;-).

/BAH

[jmfbahciv]

Rod Speed wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote
>>
<snip>

>> Another one is capacity. If you wnat to feed a dozen sprinklers
>> at a time, you don't lay a 1" or 2" pipe for the initial inflow.
>
> And that’s done with fire sprinkler systems.

Fire sprinklers don't have to move tons of water. I was talking
about irrigating 2 acres of garden.

>
>> I also like to have a vent for each drain but doesn't happen either.
>
> There's no need for that. One at the extreme end of each run is all you
> need.
>

I KNOW there's no need. I like having a minivent. The water drains
quickly with no water spray from big bubbles coming back up the pipe.

/BAH

[Rod Speed]

jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote

> Rod Speed wrote
>> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote

>>> Another one is capacity. If you wnat to feed a dozen sprinklers
>>> at a time, you don't lay a 1" or 2" pipe for the initial inflow.

>> And that’s done with fire sprinkler systems.

> Fire sprinklers don't have to move tons of water.

Wrong. When a fucking great sky scraper is going up
in flames they do indeed move tons of water. And that’s
the situation that has to be designed for, the worst case.

> I was talking about irrigating 2 acres of garden.

That involves a hell of a lot less water than a
fucking great sky scraper going up in flames.

And we have fucking great irrigators that do a hell of a lot
bigger area than a pissy little 2 acres of garden. Try thousands
of acres.

The computer system we worked on for a citrus operation
that has trees as far as the eye can see in all directions from
the manager's house on hill in the middle has fucking great
pumps as big as a full semi. Leaves your pissy little 2 acres for dead.

And yes, the initial pipe size is just a tad more than 1" or 2" pipe.

>>> I also like to have a vent for each drain but doesn't happen either.

>> There's no need for that. One at the extreme end of each run is all you
>> need.

> I KNOW there's no need. I like having a minivent. The water drains
> quickly with no water spray from big bubbles coming back up the pipe.

No water spray with any of mine that don’t have any mini vent.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <aa20pe...@mid.individual.net>, "Rod Speed"

Each drain has to have a vent. But the vent can be shared with other
drains assuming the distance isn't too great.

I assume that what you said/meant, just wanted to be clear.

--
charles

[John F. Eldredge]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:07:42 +1000, Rod Speed wrote:

> Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote
>> Peter Flass <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote
>>> Cryptoengineer wrote
>>>> jmfbahciv<See.ab...@aol.com> wrote
>
>>>>>> Me, I like daylight savings like leap day; as a mostly harmless bit
>>>>>> of grit to remind folks that the world doesn't run perfectly.
>
>>>>> Changing time like that is not harmless. Forcing the entire
>>>>> population to suffer jet lag for a week or two twice a year is
>>>>> really stupid.
>
>>>> If you're suffering from jet lag for a 'week or two' after a 1 hour
>>>> change, you need to see a doctor.
>
>>> Takes me about a week. Not so much jet lag, but my sleep time/wake
>>> time is messed up, and not always in the direction you'd expect.
>
>> Wow.
>
>> My sleep habits are way to irregular for an hour to matter.
>
>> Seems to me children especially get a false impression of what the
>> Earth/Sun system is really up to.
>
>> I have a feeling we'd all benefit from having to go to school or work
>> in the dark.
>
> I don't. There is a fair amount of scientific evidence that teenagers
> particularly are forced to get up too early as it is for the best
> results mentally.
>
>> We'd automatically see how days are getting shorter due the Earth's
>> wobble and how abstract things like clocks don't necessarily line up
>> with things as we'd like them.
>
> Cant see that being much use to anyone much.

When I was in college, I was amazed to find out that one of my classmates
wasn't aware that there were fewer hours of daylight during winter than
there were during summer. I still don't understand how someone growing
up in the temperate zone, with several hours difference in the duration
of daylight between mid-summer and mid-winter, could reach age 20 without
having noticed the phenomenon.

--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly
is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

[John F. Eldredge]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 12:25:15 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

> Patrick Scheible <k...@zipcon.net> writes:
>
>> jack...@bright.net writes:

>>
>>> Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Me, I like daylight savings like leap day; as a mostly harmless bit
>>>>> of grit to remind folks that the world doesn't run perfectly.
>>>>>

>>>>In this case I think its more a matter of our measurements of how the
>>>>real world runs aren't perfect.
>>>
>>> True, we need to set 6 AM at sunrise, and 6 PM at sunset, and vary the
>>> length of the hours to fit in the span.
>>
>> I can't wait to design clocks in everything that have to be set not
>> only for the correct day, but also the correct lattitude!
>
> Sunrise?
>
> I have hills to the west.

If the hills to the west block your view of sunrise, then you have a
rather strange definition of sunrise.

[John F. Eldredge]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:49:53 -0400, Walter Bushell wrote:

> In article <js88ql$n7i$6...@dont-email.me>,
> Peter Flass <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> It's the "standard time" system that's unnatural. Local Noon used to
>> be defined as the time the sun was at its highest point _at your
>> location_.
>> Then they went and messed with it to help business - greedy bastards.
>
> It was a great convenience to the public, for most people, everybody in
> their local area is on the same time and there are well defined
> boundaries. Back in the day every town had its own time, if you did
> business in several towns things could get confusing. OTOH, nobody
> bothered about a few minutes. But yes, it was adopted to clear confusion
> with railroad schedules. We got that inconvenience back with jet travel,
> but nothing can be done.

If train A is scheduled to use a particular track at 8:00 AM, and train
B, going in the opposite direction, is scheduled to use that same section
of track at 8:15 AM, they had better have their clocks synchronized.

[Rod Speed]

John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote

Yeah, it can be very surprising what some people don’t notice at all like
that.

[Rod Speed]

John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote

> Walter Bushell wrote

>> Peter Flass <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote

>>> It's the "standard time" system that's unnatural. Local Noon used to
>>> be defined as the time the sun was at its highest point _at your
>>> location_.

>>> Then they went and messed with it to help business - greedy bastards.

>> It was a great convenience to the public, for most people, everybody
>> in their local area is on the same time and there are well defined
>> boundaries. Back in the day every town had its own time, if you did
>> business in several towns things could get confusing. OTOH, nobody
>> bothered about a few minutes. But yes, it was adopted to clear confusion
>> with railroad schedules. We got that inconvenience back with jet travel,
>> but nothing can be done.

> If train A is scheduled to use a particular track at 8:00 AM, and train
> B, going in the opposite direction, is scheduled to use that same section
> of track at 8:15 AM, they had better have their clocks synchronized.

That’s what the signals and interlock systems are for. They don’t just use
the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Token_(railway_signalling)

[Peter Flass]

On 9/1/2012 8:08 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 12:25:15 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>> Patrick Scheible <k...@zipcon.net> writes:
>>
>>> jack...@bright.net writes:
>>>
>>>> Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Me, I like daylight savings like leap day; as a mostly harmless bit
>>>>>> of grit to remind folks that the world doesn't run perfectly.
>>>>>>
>>>>> In this case I think its more a matter of our measurements of how the
>>>>> real world runs aren't perfect.
>>>>
>>>> True, we need to set 6 AM at sunrise, and 6 PM at sunset, and vary the
>>>> length of the hours to fit in the span.
>>>
>>> I can't wait to design clocks in everything that have to be set not
>>> only for the correct day, but also the correct lattitude!
>>
>> Sunrise?
>>
>> I have hills to the west.
>
> If the hills to the west block your view of sunrise, then you have a
> rather strange definition of sunrise.
>

It's the *other* sunrise, silly.

--
Pete

[jmfbahciv]

If you are never outside, you won't notice anything having to do with
nature.

/BAH

[Walter Bushell]

In article <PM0004C8B...@ac8103aa.ipt.aol.com>,

I you have big enough windows, even inside you will. I, for one, don't
have the lights on during the daylight hours like now.

--
This space unintentionally left blank.

[Wayne Throop]

::: When I was in college, I was amazed to find out that one of my

::: classmates wasn't aware that there were fewer hours of daylight
::: during winter than there were during summer. I still don't
::: understand how someone growing up in the temperate zone, with
::: several hours difference in the duration of daylight between
::: mid-summer and mid-winter, could reach age 20 without having noticed
::: the phenomenon.

:: If you are never outside, you won't notice anything having to do with
:: nature.

: Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
: I you have big enough windows, even inside you will. I, for one,

: don't have the lights on during the daylight hours like now.

My hypothesis would be, somebody who lives in a city, say NY NY
(the city so nice they named it twice).

Mind you, if somebody were paying attention, they'd notice even there.
But it makes it more plausible. Especially for somebody who routinely
stays up late or very very early, so they routinely depend on artificial
light, and only have one pass of the terminator over their position
per day.

So. I expect it can be accomplished, but in addition to being helped
along by residence in metaphorical caves of steel, it requires quite a
bit of inattention. Not only to the phenomenon itself, but to the
qite frequent references to it by other folks.

Then again, maybe the upthread classmate was joshing, like the
folks who told (was it?) Margaret Meade that they didn't know about
the connection between sex and impregnation.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <aaflob...@mid.individual.net>, "John F. Eldredge"
<jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:

[snip]

>
>When I was in college, I was amazed to find out that one of my classmates
>wasn't aware that there were fewer hours of daylight during winter than
>there were during summer. I still don't understand how someone growing
>up in the temperate zone, with several hours difference in the duration
>of daylight between mid-summer and mid-winter, could reach age 20 without
>having noticed the phenomenon.

I talked to a woman, in her 30's who didn't realize that the moon was
sometimes visible during the day. This isn't meant to be snarky. There are
many things I don't know that others do. It was just that I saw it as a
matter of observation and wondered how someone could have not noticed it
in 30+ years.

--
charles

[Rod Speed]

jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote
> John F. Eldredge wrote

That’s not nature, that’s physics.

And even kids have to go to school most school days.

[ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk]

In article <aaghdl...@mid.individual.net>, rod.sp...@gmail.com
(Rod Speed) wrote:

> That_s what the signals and interlock systems are for. They don_t
> just use the time.

Modern signalling systems are the result of years of development mainly
driven by major accidents. Railways started with time interval
signalling and locally controlled points. Absolute block came fairly
late. See "Red for Danger" for an account of the development influenced
by accidents.

Ken Young

[David DeLaney]

Ah, he's just remembering back to the Very First Days, right after the
Valar set the Sun and Moon going originally.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Robert Bannister]

On 2/09/12 7:58 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

> When I was in college, I was amazed to find out that one of my classmates
> wasn't aware that there were fewer hours of daylight during winter than
> there were during summer. I still don't understand how someone growing
> up in the temperate zone, with several hours difference in the duration
> of daylight between mid-summer and mid-winter, could reach age 20 without
> having noticed the phenomenon.

Every year, I am amazed at the speed of the change. For about a month
after mid-winter, you hardly notice anything and then, suddenly, it
starts getting light in the morning. In another month or so, I hope to
be getting up in daylight for a short while, but I don't know how long
this will last.

We've had four referendums on daylight saving now. Each one has returned
a resounding No. The last one disproved the theory that it was only
farmers and country people voting against too - it was the city that
carried it. Despite this, however, the night-time people are at it
again, trying to canvass support for their "daylight". Why they can't
get up earlier has me beaten.


--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 3/09/12 3:00 AM, Charles Bishop wrote:

> I talked to a woman, in her 30's who didn't realize that the moon was
> sometimes visible during the day. This isn't meant to be snarky. There are
> many things I don't know that others do. It was just that I saw it as a
> matter of observation and wondered how someone could have not noticed it
> in 30+ years.
>

The last time I met someone like that, I was told very scornfully that
perhaps things like that happened in Pommyland, but they certainly did
not in Australia. I had to find a newspaper giving moonrise and moon-set
times, but she still didn't really believe me.
--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 2/09/12 8:11 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

> If train A is scheduled to use a particular track at 8:00 AM, and train
> B, going in the opposite direction, is scheduled to use that same section
> of track at 8:15 AM, they had better have their clocks synchronized.

That was far too close to the opening sentence of one of those maths
problems we all sweated over back when we were younger.


--
Robert Bannister

[Rod Speed]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote

> John F. Eldredge wrote

>> When I was in college, I was amazed to find out that one of my classmates
>> wasn't aware that there were fewer hours of daylight during winter than
>> there were during summer. I still don't understand how someone growing
>> up in the temperate zone, with several hours difference in the duration
>> of daylight between mid-summer and mid-winter, could reach age 20 without
>> having noticed the phenomenon.

> Every year, I am amazed at the speed of the change.

Yeah, me too.

> For about a month after mid-winter, you hardly notice anything and then,
> suddenly, it starts getting light in the morning.

Yep, specially noticeable with the 6am garage/yard sale starts.

> In another month or so, I hope to be getting up in daylight for a short
> while,

I never do now.

> but I don't know how long this will last.

> We've had four referendums on daylight saving now. Each one has returned a
> resounding No. The last one disproved the theory that it was only farmers
> and country people voting against too - it was the city that carried it.
> Despite this, however, the night-time people are at it again, trying to
> canvass support for their "daylight". Why they can't get up earlier has me
> beaten.

They obviously can, but most of them can't change
the time their work requires them to be there etc.

[Rod Speed]

<ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>> That's what the signals and interlock systems are for.
>> They don't just use the time.

> Modern signalling systems are the result of years of development mainly
> driven by major accidents. Railways started with time interval
> signalling and locally controlled points. Absolute block came fairly
> late. See "Red for Danger" for an account of the development influenced
> by accidents.

Sure, but they were never silly enough to rely JUST on accurate time.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Or looked at and said "hey, that's easy" and then waited, bored, as
everyone else took half an hour to solve a one-minute problem.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Charles Bishop]

Or they could have been like Sherlock Holmes who didn't keep anything in
memory that wasn't necessary to his work.

--
charles

[Joe Morris]

"Robert Bannister" <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> On 3/09/12 3:00 AM, Charles Bishop wrote:

>> I talked to a woman, in her 30's who didn't realize that the moon was
>> sometimes visible during the day. This isn't meant to be snarky. There
>> are
>> many things I don't know that others do. It was just that I saw it as a
>> matter of observation and wondered how someone could have not noticed it
>> in 30+ years.

> The last time I met someone like that, I was told very scornfully that
> perhaps things like that happened in Pommyland, but they certainly did not
> in Australia. I had to find a newspaper giving moonrise and moon-set
> times, but she still didn't really believe me.

Interesting...that's something I've not run into. For the past 17 years
I've managed an astronomy outreach program for the National Park Service in
Washington, DC; I've had people express surprise when told that there's no
air on the Moon but I've never heard anyone dispute the ability to see the
Moon during the day. Some have been surprised to hear that you can
sometimes see Jupiter during the day, but when we talk about it there hasn't
been any denial.

Joe

[lawr...@gandi.cluon.com]

I remember meeting someone who refused to believe the moon was visible
by day, and as their "proof" offered Genesis 1:16.

--NK1G

[lawr...@gandi.cluon.com]

When I was a pup ( junior high school, I recall) there was a problem of
the form "It's 200 miles from New York to Boston ... If a southbound
train from New york leaves at 9am at 50 miles an hour, and a northbound
train leaves Boston at 8:30 am at 60 miles an hour, where will they
collide?"

Near any adult could answer "They won't - the northbound train will
cross into Canada while the southbound train is in the Carolinas", but
to a seventh grader from Rural California, "Boston" and "New York" were
as abstract concepts in my mind as "Emerald City" and "Hundred Acre
Wood" and their relative position was implied by the problem.

Of course, the ACTUAL purpose of the misleading exercise was "sometimes
the problem does not contain all the information you need -- real life
is not a maths textbook"

I still felt cheated.

--NK1G

[Bill Snyder]

Well, except for stuff like detailed information on bee-keeping,
and rare species of jellyfish, and British history, and Mormons,
and the Ku Klux Klan, and . . .

Doyle had Holmes say that early on, but he was all too prone to
having the Great Detective produce some obscure bit of information
that he could hardly have had any use for in or out of his work,
until the present case.


--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]

[Leif Roar Moldskred]

In rec.arts.sf.written lawr...@gandi.cluon.com wrote:
>
> When I was a pup ( junior high school, I recall) there was a problem of
> the form "It's 200 miles from New York to Boston ... If a southbound
> train from New york leaves at 9am at 50 miles an hour, and a northbound
> train leaves Boston at 8:30 am at 60 miles an hour, where will they
> collide?"
>

[SNIP]
>
> I still felt cheated.

Well, knowing that the circumference of the Earth is about 40,000 km...

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

[John F. Eldredge]

My mother once mentioned that she was in her mid-teens before she
realized that the moon didn't stay at the same apparent position in the
sky all of the time. Apparently, she had only been paying attention to
the position of the moon when it was about to set.

[Michael Black]

On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Wayne Throop wrote:


> Then again, maybe the upthread classmate was joshing, like the
> folks who told (was it?) Margaret Meade that they didn't know about
> the connection between sex and impregnation.
>
>

I thought it was revealed that the Samoans had made up a lot of stories
for Margaret Mead, having seen that she was interested, they decided to
make up stories about local sexuality. And presumably she saw them as
"innocent" so took the stories at face value. But wait, the criticism of
that seems to have been invalidated, so there was no "hoax". Who knows.

Michael

[Shmuel Metz]

In <877gsbt...@gandi.cluon.com>, on 09/03/2012

at 03:39 PM, lawr...@gandi.cluon.com said:

>When I was a pup ( junior high school, I recall) there was a problem
>of the form "It's 200 miles from New York to Boston ... If a
>southbound train from New york leaves at 9am at 50 miles an hour, and
>a northbound train leaves Boston at 8:30 am at 60 miles an hour,
>where will they collide?"

>Near any adult could answer "They won't - the northbound train will
>cross into Canada while the southbound train is in the
>Carolinas",

Perhaps the problem assumes that the tracks have been extended to the
full great circle. Admittedly the bridges and tunnels involved would
present some engineering difficulties.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spam...@library.lspace.org

[Shmuel Metz]

In <87bohnt...@gandi.cluon.com>, on 09/03/2012

at 03:31 PM, lawr...@gandi.cluon.com said:

>I remember meeting someone who refused to believe the moon was
>visible by day, and as their "proof" offered Genesis 1:16.

In what language?

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 12:03:35 -0400
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:

> In <877gsbt...@gandi.cluon.com>, on 09/03/2012
> at 03:39 PM, lawr...@gandi.cluon.com said:
>
> >When I was a pup ( junior high school, I recall) there was a problem
> >of the form "It's 200 miles from New York to Boston ... If a
> >southbound train from New york leaves at 9am at 50 miles an hour, and
> >a northbound train leaves Boston at 8:30 am at 60 miles an hour,
> >where will they collide?"
>
> >Near any adult could answer "They won't - the northbound train will
> >cross into Canada while the southbound train is in the
> >Carolinas",
>
> Perhaps the problem assumes that the tracks have been extended to the
> full great circle. Admittedly the bridges and tunnels involved would
> present some engineering difficulties.

No problem at all, just put the tracks 150 miles up in orbit, mount
the stations on wheels (with *very* good bearings) and nice tall towers for
the passengers. Trains run at slightly below orbital speed on the outer
track and slightly above on the inner track. They never collide.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

[Charles Bishop]

In article <k21dt...@news6.newsguy.com>, "Joe Morris"

I don't know if you were involved directly (or even indirectly) but I
attended a national park presentation in Utah (drove from LA) for the last
solar eclipse. It was well run, at a terrific site, and the rangers were
knowledgable and engaging.

An odd thing was there was a broadcast of the eclipse indoors, and people
watched that rather than the eclipse.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <aajtof...@mid.individual.net>, "John F. Eldredge"

<jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:05:56 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> On 3/09/12 3:00 AM, Charles Bishop wrote:
>>
>>> I talked to a woman, in her 30's who didn't realize that the moon was
>>> sometimes visible during the day. This isn't meant to be snarky. There
>>> are many things I don't know that others do. It was just that I saw it
>>> as a matter of observation and wondered how someone could have not
>>> noticed it in 30+ years.
>>>
>>>
>> The last time I met someone like that, I was told very scornfully that
>> perhaps things like that happened in Pommyland, but they certainly did
>> not in Australia. I had to find a newspaper giving moonrise and moon-set
>> times, but she still didn't really believe me.
>
>My mother once mentioned that she was in her mid-teens before she
>realized that the moon didn't stay at the same apparent position in the
>sky all of the time. Apparently, she had only been paying attention to
>the position of the moon when it was about to set.

A few weeks ago there was a first cresent moon-the first one seen after a
new moon. I first saw it as it was just setting behind some local hills.
It's my favorite shape of moon so I'm wondering just how to figure out
when this series of circumstances will happen again. I was sitting on the
deck and it was a beautiful sight.

As I typed this, I realized that something isn't right. Obviously the
first crescent is going to set every time it appears. So, do I want to
know if I can find out when it will set in about the same spot? I think
"just after sunset" is also a consideration.

So for now, new crescent moon, and set in about the same location (it was
between two "peaks").

There's probably a website that will do the calcs for me.

I'll post this anyway, but I can do some research.

--
charles

[David DeLaney]

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:

> at 03:31 PM, lawr...@gandi.cluon.com said:
>>I remember meeting someone who refused to believe the moon was
>>visible by day, and as their "proof" offered Genesis 1:16.
>
>In what language?

As I understood things, the words the Moon was written in aren't IN a
language?

Dave "this may be why I didn't pass the test" DeLaney

[David DeLaney]

Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:

>ctbi...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
>>Or they could have been like Sherlock Holmes who didn't keep anything in
>>memory that wasn't necessary to his work.
>
>Well, except for stuff like detailed information on bee-keeping,
>and rare species of jellyfish, and British history, and Mormons,
>and the Ku Klux Klan, and . . .
>
>Doyle had Holmes say that early on, but he was all too prone to
>having the Great Detective produce some obscure bit of information
>that he could hardly have had any use for in or out of his work,
>until the present case.

Well, if you mentally correct it to "that wasn't necessary to what he thought
was/would be his work" it suddenly all makes sense again.

Dave

[David Johnston]

On 9/3/2012 1:39 PM, David DeLaney wrote:
> Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:
>> ctbi...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
>>> Or they could have been like Sherlock Holmes who didn't keep anything in
>>> memory that wasn't necessary to his work.
>>
>> Well, except for stuff like detailed information on bee-keeping,
>> and rare species of jellyfish, and British history, and Mormons,
>> and the Ku Klux Klan, and . . .
>>
>> Doyle had Holmes say that early on, but he was all too prone to
>> having the Great Detective produce some obscure bit of information
>> that he could hardly have had any use for in or out of his work,
>> until the present case.
>
> Well, if you mentally correct it to "that wasn't necessary to what he thought
> was/would be his work" it suddenly all makes sense again.
>

I am inclined to think that Holmes was just tired of having a dimwit
quiz him on middle school astronomy.

[Wayne Throop]

:: When I was in college, I was amazed to find out that one of my
:: classmates wasn't aware that there were fewer hours of daylight
:: during winter than there were during summer.

: ctbi...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop)

: I talked to a woman, in her 30's who didn't realize that the moon was
: sometimes visible during the day. This isn't meant to be snarky.
: There are many things I don't know that others do. It was just that I
: saw it as a matter of observation and wondered how someone could have
: not noticed it in 30+ years.

That's actually quite common IME. I'm with you; it seems odd that folks
(LOTS of folks) can go decades without noticing it... but again, if you
live in a big city, the most prominent cases of it, with the moon near
the horizon, may not be noticeable at all.

[Wayne Throop]

: ctbi...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop)
: A few weeks ago there was a first cresent moon-the first one seen

: after a new moon. I first saw it as it was just setting behind some
: local hills. It's my favorite shape of moon so I'm wondering just how
: to figure out when this series of circumstances will happen again. I
: was sitting on the deck and it was a beautiful sight.

Well... "in about four weeks". If you want precision, google it up.
(Or at least, that's what I'd do...)

Note that a bit before that (large-ish fraction of a week), you'll be
able to see a crescent moon rise just before the sun... that is, the
crescent just *before* the new moon. That may be very nearly as sightly.

: As I typed this, I realized that something isn't right. Obviously the

: first crescent is going to set every time it appears. So, do I want
: to know if I can find out when it will set in about the same spot? I
: think "just after sunset" is also a consideration.

Ah. Well that's much more complicated. The moon's apparent path is
all wibbly-wobbly compared to something simple like the sun. Or so it
seems to me. In any event, not coordinated with the seasons well.

And of course, the "last crescent" won't be between the mountains where
you found the first.

"Non-sequitur. Your facts are un-co-ordinated."
--- Nomad

"I am perpetual now." --- ibid

[Wayne Throop]

: lawr...@gandi.cluon.com
: I remember meeting someone who refused to believe the moon was visible

: by day, and as their "proof" offered Genesis 1:16.

Would they believe their own eyes over the Good Book?
Just wait 'til new moon, and a few days, then just after
sunrise when the sun is definitely all above the horizon,
direct their attention to the west. Or at least, that's one
of the simplest times it can be seen.

But I suppose the having-to-wait-for-a-full-moon would brand
you a satanist or some other magic-weilder, I suppose, I imagine.
And thus that moon would be a perfidious *false* SATANIC moon...

"I defy you. I name you Nihilus Invidia, Invidia of Nusquam,
traitor to the Crown, the Realm, and her people."
--- Isana to Invidia (formerly High Lady of Aquitaine)
in First Lord's Fury

[Walter Bushell]

In article <5044d4d7$13$fuzhry+tra$mr2...@news.patriot.net>,

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid>
wrote:

> In <877gsbt...@gandi.cluon.com>, on 09/03/2012
> at 03:39 PM, lawr...@gandi.cluon.com said:
>
> >When I was a pup ( junior high school, I recall) there was a problem
> >of the form "It's 200 miles from New York to Boston ... If a
> >southbound train from New york leaves at 9am at 50 miles an hour, and
> >a northbound train leaves Boston at 8:30 am at 60 miles an hour,
> >where will they collide?"
>
> >Near any adult could answer "They won't - the northbound train will
> >cross into Canada while the southbound train is in the
> >Carolinas",
>
> Perhaps the problem assumes that the tracks have been extended to the
> full great circle. Admittedly the bridges and tunnels involved would
> present some engineering difficulties.

Yes, we still haven't built the Long Beach CA -- Honolulu tunnel.

--
This space unintentionally left blank.

[Howard Brazee]

We were showing some people around Denver who came from New Zealand to
the WorldCon that year. The boy looked up and exclaimed that the
moon was upside down!

He observed something I had never thought about (having never crossed
the equator).

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 12:03:35 -0400, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
<spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:

>Perhaps the problem assumes that the tracks have been extended to the
>full great circle. Admittedly the bridges and tunnels involved would
>present some engineering difficulties.

What color was the bear?

[Robert Bannister]

Truly amazing what the human mind can convince itself to believe. If
anyone can take:

"16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day,
and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

to mean that the moon can only appear at night, I presume they can
believe they see stars all day as well as all night.
--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 3/09/12 10:39 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:05:56 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> On 3/09/12 3:00 AM, Charles Bishop wrote:
>>
>>> I talked to a woman, in her 30's who didn't realize that the moon was
>>> sometimes visible during the day. This isn't meant to be snarky. There
>>> are many things I don't know that others do. It was just that I saw it
>>> as a matter of observation and wondered how someone could have not
>>> noticed it in 30+ years.
>>>
>>>
>> The last time I met someone like that, I was told very scornfully that
>> perhaps things like that happened in Pommyland, but they certainly did
>> not in Australia. I had to find a newspaper giving moonrise and moon-set
>> times, but she still didn't really believe me.
>
> My mother once mentioned that she was in her mid-teens before she
> realized that the moon didn't stay at the same apparent position in the
> sky all of the time. Apparently, she had only been paying attention to
> the position of the moon when it was about to set.
>

Because of the alignment of the streets where I live now and the times
when I am most likely to see the moon, I suppose I could believe that it
only appears due East or due West. In fact, I quite often see a crescent
moon framing Venus in the mornings in the East and a full moon at night
in the West - not on the same day, of course, but if I were one of these
credulous people, it would be easy enough to persuade myself of nonsense
like that.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 4/09/12 8:02 AM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> We were showing some people around Denver who came from New Zealand to
> the WorldCon that year. The boy looked up and exclaimed that the
> moon was upside down!
>
> He observed something I had never thought about (having never crossed
> the equator).
>

One of the first things I noticed when I came to Australia, although for
me it's more on its side than upside down.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 3/09/12 11:54 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote

>> John F. Eldredge wrote
>
>>> When I was in college, I was amazed to find out that one of my
>>> classmates

>>> wasn't aware that there were fewer hours of daylight during winter than

>>> there were during summer. I still don't understand how someone growing
>>> up in the temperate zone, with several hours difference in the duration
>>> of daylight between mid-summer and mid-winter, could reach age 20
>>> without
>>> having noticed the phenomenon.
>

>> Every year, I am amazed at the speed of the change.
>
> Yeah, me too.
>
>> For about a month after mid-winter, you hardly notice anything and
>> then, suddenly, it starts getting light in the morning.
>
> Yep, specially noticeable with the 6am garage/yard sale starts.
>
>> In another month or so, I hope to be getting up in daylight for a
>> short while,
>
> I never do now.
>
>> but I don't know how long this will last.
>
>> We've had four referendums on daylight saving now. Each one has
>> returned a resounding No. The last one disproved the theory that it
>> was only farmers and country people voting against too - it was the
>> city that carried it. Despite this, however, the night-time people are
>> at it again, trying to canvass support for their "daylight". Why they
>> can't get up earlier has me beaten.
>
> They obviously can, but most of them can't change
> the time their work requires them to be there etc.

That's the part that surprises me because so many people have flexitime
arrangements these days.

--
Robert Bannister

[Howard Brazee]

On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 08:30:33 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>Truly amazing what the human mind can convince itself to believe. If
>anyone can take:
>
>"16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day,
>and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."
>
>to mean that the moon can only appear at night, I presume they can
>believe they see stars all day as well as all night.

And the ruler of France cannot ever leave France, right?

[Rod Speed]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote
> lawr...@gandi.cluon.com wrote
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote

>>> Charles Bishop wrote

>>>> I talked to a woman, in her 30's who didn't realize that the moon was
>>>> sometimes visible during the day. This isn't meant to be snarky. There
>>>> are many things I don't know that others do. It was just that I saw it
>>>> as a matter of observation and wondered how someone could have not
>>>> noticed it in 30+ years.

>>> The last time I met someone like that, I was told very scornfully that
>>> perhaps things like that happened in Pommyland, but they certainly did
>>> not in Australia. I had to find a newspaper giving moonrise and
>>> moon-set times, but she still didn't really believe me.

>> I remember meeting someone who refused to believe the moon was visible by
>> day, and as their "proof" offered Genesis 1:16.

> Truly amazing what the human mind can convince itself to believe.

Not really, when fools convince themselves that some complete
arsehole of a god has just chosen to give one of their kids leukaemia
etc and that that complete arsehole of a god will take it away again
if they grovel hard enough.

[Rod Speed]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote

Hordes don’t tho, most obviously those working in retail and in schools etc.

In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if more don’t than do even today.

In spades with the past when so many worked in agriculture etc.

[David DeLaney]

Wayne Throop <thr...@sheol.org> wrote:
>Note that a bit before that (large-ish fraction of a week), you'll be
>able to see a crescent moon rise just before the sun... that is, the
>crescent just *before* the new moon. That may be very nearly as sightly.

And it will set just before the sun also, but will be harder to see in the
reds and oranges of a glorious soon-to-be-departed sunset.

>Ah. Well that's much more complicated. The moon's apparent path is
>all wibbly-wobbly compared to something simple like the sun. Or so it
>seems to me. In any event, not coordinated with the seasons well.

If you think the analemma explanation is complicated, I advise that you not
even start to TRY with the moon's motion. Unless you have an intermediary
like Asimov interceding. It is said that computing the motion of the moon
is the only thing that ever made Isaac Newton's head hurt.

>And of course, the "last crescent" won't be between the mountains where
>you found the first.

ObSF: Diane Duane, _The Door Into Shadow_, and Glasscastle's existence
conditions.

[David DeLaney]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:

>Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>to mean that the moon can only appear at night, I presume they can
>>believe they see stars all day as well as all night.

Sure, from the bottom of a sufficiently deep chasm! (Note: this depth is
approximately 8000 miles deeper than most people think.)

>And the ruler of France cannot ever leave France, right?

"Why, this is France, nor am I out of it."

Dave, the language of leeeeeeave

[David DeLaney]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>Because of the alignment of the streets where I live now and the times
>when I am most likely to see the moon, I suppose I could believe that it
>only appears due East or due West. In fact, I quite often see a crescent
>moon framing Venus in the mornings in the East and a full moon at night
>in the West - not on the same day, of course, but if I were one of these
>credulous people, it would be easy enough to persuade myself of nonsense
>like that.

Um. Er. I truly hope you're not using the "inside the horns" meaning of
"framing". Because The Moon Does Not Work That Way...

Dave, we have not yet reached the tech level where we duplicate the Islamic
symbol