"It's turtles all the way down!"
Andrew Solovay
I've often heard an anecdote. Apparently, a scientist was lecturing on
the nature of the univers, when someone in the audience insisted,
"That's all wrong! The world sits on the back of a turtle!" The
bemused scientist asked what the turtle stood on. The audience member
said, "You can't trick me! It's turtles all the way down!"
The punchline, "It's turtles all the way down", is often used on
talk.atheism and talk.origins.
I was wondering: Does anyone know just where this anecdote originated?
Did this incident really happen? If so, who was the professor? If not,
does anyone know who made up the story? The punchline is used often
enough that this just might be worth including in the File.
--
Andrew Solovay
"I require three things in a man:
he must be handsome, ruthless, and stupid." --Dorothy Parker
Sheldon R Smoker
[some stuff deleted...]
>The punchline, "It's turtles all the way down", is often used on
>talk.atheism and talk.origins.
>
>I was wondering: Does anyone know just where this anecdote originated?
>Did this incident really happen? If so, who was the professor? If not,
>does anyone know who made up the story? The punchline is used often
>enough that this just might be worth including in the File.
>--
>
I saw this story in Stephen Hawking's book _A Brief History of Time_.
(Very good book IMONSHO). I'll repeat the whole paragraph here:
A well-known public scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell)
once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the
earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits
the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At
the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the
room got up and said: "What you have told us is all rubbish. The
world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a tortoise."
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the
tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very
clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"
Pretty funny stuff. One obvious question is "Turtles all the way down
to *where*?"
Side note: Ever notice how it's always the know-nothings who say things
like "that's rubbish" or "that's a lot of BS". Since they cannot give
a reasoned argument, that's all they can say.
followups to alt.bs
Sheldon.
--
Sheldon Smoker | "There are two kinds of people in this world : those
srs...@pitt.edu | who think that there are two kinds of people, and those
| who don't think that there are two kinds of people."
Daniel Kuan Li Oi
>I've often heard an anecdote. Apparently, a scientist was lecturing on
>the nature of the univers, when someone in the audience insisted,
>"That's all wrong! The world sits on the back of a turtle!" The
>bemused scientist asked what the turtle stood on. The audience member
>said, "You can't trick me! It's turtles all the way down!"
>The punchline, "It's turtles all the way down", is often used on
>talk.atheism and talk.origins.
>I was wondering: Does anyone know just where this anecdote originated?
>Did this incident really happen? If so, who was the professor? If not,
>does anyone know who made up the story? The punchline is used often
>enough that this just might be worth including in the File.
>--
>Andrew Solovay
I heard Prof. Paul Davies recount this story before but am not
sure whether Prof.Davies was the one in question.
Daniel Oi
University Of Western Australia
--
\ /
\/
/\
/ \ .sig for those who can't type.
Al Wesolowsky
>the nature of the univers, when someone in the audience insisted,
>"That's all wrong! The world sits on the back of a turtle!" The
>bemused scientist asked what the turtle stood on. The audience member
>said, "You can't trick me! It's turtles all the way down!"
Isn't this from Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time"?
My recollection is that the lecturer was taking questions from the
audience when a sweet old lady admonished him for not knowing that the
universe (or was it just the world?) rested on the back of a great
elephant. Hindu cosmolgy, perhaps.
"But madame, on what does the elephant stand?"
"Why, on the back of a turtle, of course."
"Um...and on what, may I ask, does the turtle stand?"
"Ah, but you're clever, young man. Too clever by half. It's turtles,
all the way down."
Durn, I gotta go find my copy of BHT and look this up. If it's been
consumed by the stack of turtles that support my workstation, at least
you got a pointer.
---Al
--
Al B. Wesolowsky Boston o "Los gringos...otra vez."
a...@crsa.bu.edu University o ---Mapache
Heikki Karhunen
>
> I've often heard an anecdote. Apparently, a scientist was lecturing on
> the nature of the univers, when someone in the audience insisted,
> "That's all wrong! The world sits on the back of a turtle!" The
> bemused scientist asked what the turtle stood on. The audience member
> said, "You can't trick me! It's turtles all the way down!"
>
> The punchline, "It's turtles all the way down", is often used on
> talk.atheism and talk.origins.
>
> I was wondering: Does anyone know just where this anecdote originated?
> Did this incident really happen? If so, who was the professor? If not,
> does anyone know who made up the story? The punchline is used often
> enough that this just might be worth including in the File.
As I recall it, it is in a book "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!"
by that curious character Richard P. Feynman. And yes, the incident
did indeed happen. But sadly I cannot remember exactly as to where and
when. Reead it up on the book, though.
> --
> Andrew Solovay
>
> "I require three things in a man:
> he must be handsome, ruthless, and stupid." --Dorothy Parker
Heikki Karhunen
--
/-----------------------------+-----------------------------------------\
| hkar...@kruuna.helsinki.fi | There is always a job for a theoretical |
| Heikki....@helsinki.fi | physicist -- at least in theory. |
\-----------------------------+-----------------------------------------/
Ted Turo'cy
(...about "turtles all the way down")
>As I recall it, it is in a book "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!"
>by that curious character Richard P. Feynman. And yes, the incident
>did indeed happen. But sadly I cannot remember exactly as to where and
>when. Reead it up on the book, though.
Nope, that's not it, I'm sure... But I _have_ read it somewhere.
Argh, I hate it when this happens... :-)
Ted Tur\'ocy
mag...@hss.caltech.edu
----------------------
"Unpredictable, like the sun/and the rainfall." - DM
Alexander Bochmann
AS> I've often heard an anecdote. Apparently, a scientist was lecturing
AS> on the nature of the univers, when someone in the audience insisted,
AS> "That's all wrong! The world sits on the back of a turtle!" The
Now, and here we can ask the question, how Terry Pratchett came to the idea of
a world carried by four elephants that are standing on the back of a turtle...
Or perhaps the student read too much Terry Pratchett...
/\|ex.
--
a...@traveller.fido.de * FidoNet 2:241/7803 * NeST 90:400/101
Laura Lemay
> AS> "That's all wrong! The world sits on the back of a turtle!" The
>
> Now, and here we can ask the question, how Terry Pratchett came to the idea of
> a world carried by four elephants that are standing on the back of a turtle...
>
> Or perhaps the student read too much Terry Pratchett...
Or perhaps the thoery of the world resting on the back of a turtle is
actually more ancient than both Terry Pratchett and Steven Hawking put
together. :)
I believe the world on the back of the turle myth is hundreds,
if not thousands, of years old. I remember reading about it in a book
on comparative mythology long before I ever discovered the diskworld
(or a "brief history of time").
--
*********************************************************
Laura Lemay le...@netcom.com
writer of trifles in shadows and blood
*********************************************************
Pauline van Winsen
>In article <HKARHUNE.93...@kruuna.Helsinki.FI> hkar...@kruuna.Helsinki.FI (Heikki Karhunen) writes:
>(...about "turtles all the way down")
>>As I recall it, it is in a book "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!"
>>by that curious character Richard P. Feynman. And yes, the incident
>>did indeed happen. But sadly I cannot remember exactly as to where and
>>when. Reead it up on the book, though.
>Nope, that's not it, I'm sure... But I _have_ read it somewhere.
>Argh, I hate it when this happens... :-)
Try from the opening paragraph of Stephen Hawkings book " A Brief
History of Time."
Cheers,
Pauline
Pauline van Winsen pau...@uniq.com.au
Uniq Professional Services Pty Ltd ACN 056 279 335
PO Box 70, Paddington, NSW 2021, (Sydney) Australia
Phone: +61-2-360-7434 Fax: +61-2-331-2572 Pager: 016 287 000
"Never try to flirt with your boss... he's your bread & butter and
not your honey."
The boss is not your honey - Book 3, Woman's World, circa 1964.
William Chesters
#
# I believe the world on the back of the turle myth is hundreds,
# if not thousands, of years old. I remember reading about it in a book
# on comparative mythology long before I ever discovered the diskworld
# (or a "brief history of time").
It's quoted in John Locke's `Essay on Human Understanding' (late 17th
century) to point up the vicious regress in Scholastic notion of
`substance*'---so it has a long history as an Aunt Sally.
*literally, standing underneath (`support' for properties)
--
William Chesters (will...@aifh.ed.ac.uk)
Mark Brader
> History of Time."
The anecdote may be *in* that book, but it's certainly older than that.
I read it before Hawking's book was published, and have been waiting for
someone to tell me where, because I don't remember myself.
I can say that it was probably in something written by either (a) Isaac
Asimov, (b) Martin Gardner, or (c) Douglas Hofstadter -- and probably
not (c), because the things of his that I've read have been read by many
others and someone would have remembered it. Anyone want to check all
of Asimov's books to see if they can find it there? :-)
--
Mark Brader "A hundred billion is *not* infinite
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto and it's getting less infinite all the time!"
utzoo!sq!msb, m...@sq.com -- Isaac Asimov, "The Last Question"
This article is in the public domain.
Jim Frost
>Or perhaps the thoery of the world resting on the back of a turtle is
>actually more ancient than both Terry Pratchett and Steven Hawking put
>together. :)
>I believe the world on the back of the turle myth is hundreds,
>if not thousands, of years old. I remember reading about it in a book
>on comparative mythology long before I ever discovered the diskworld
>(or a "brief history of time").
I don't have my references here but check out Egyptian myth on the
topic; they had a similar arrangement. I don't know where *that* came
from, but we're not talking recent history.
jim frost
ji...@centerline.com
J.T. Conklin
Mark> I read it before Hawking's book was published, and have been waiting for
Mark> someone to tell me where, because I don't remember myself.
Mark> I can say that it was probably in something written by either (a) Isaac
Mark> Asimov, (b) Martin Gardner, or (c) Douglas Hofstadter -- and probably
Mark> not (c), because the things of his that I've read have been read by many
Mark> others and someone would have remembered it. Anyone want to check all
Mark> of Asimov's books to see if they can find it there? :-)
To help cut down the search space a little book, I remember that
Asimov mentioned the incident in one of his collections of science
essays.
--
J.T. Conklin <j...@wimsey.com> | Your source for floppy distributions
Winning Strategies, Inc. | of the 386BSD OS and binaries
61 Crestwood Drive #18 |
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permission.
Begin reposted message:
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Newsgroups: sci.astro
Path: mercury.unt.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!netnews!aplcomm!roelle
From: roelle@uars_mag.jhuapl.edu (Curtis Roelle)
Subject: New Book By Tom Van Flandern
Message-ID: <C83tx...@netnews.jhuapl.edu>
Followup-To: sci.astro
Sender: use...@netnews.jhuapl.edu
Organization: JHU/Applied Physics Laboratory
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1993 16:03:29 GMT
Lines: 46
Yesterday my copy of Tom Van Flandern's new book, _Dark Matter,
Missing Planets, & New Comets: Paradoxes Resolved, Origins Illuminated_,
arrived in the mail. Its 428 pages is divided into 21 chapters, plus
a glossary, notes section, and subject index. Chapter titles include:
On the Nature of Space, Time, and Matter
On Gravity
On Relativity
Do Planets Explode?
Where Do Comets Come From?
Do Comets Have Satellites?
The Origin of the Moon
The Origins of the Solar System and of Man
The Scientific Method
Peer Pressure and Paradigms
and more.
Between the deciation page and the table of contents is a page
entitled "The First Cosmology", which I have quoted here: "The world is
not flat, as it appears, but round, like a ball." "Then What holds the
world up?." "The great god Atlas holds the world on his shoulders."
"But what does Atlas stand on?" "He stands on a huge island." "But on
what does the island rest?" "It rests on the back of a giant turtle."
"But what ..." "No need to ask further. It's turtles all the way down!"
Interesting quotes are sprinkled throughout the book. Along
with those from people such as Albert Einstein are words of wisdom from
several sci.astro/sci.space personalities. Leigh Palmer is on page 143,
and Ron Baalke is on p. 243.
Signed copies of the book can be ordered for $18.95 + $4 shipping
in the U.S., Canada, and Mexico, $4 ground to Europe, and $10 air to
Europe or other countries, from Meta Research, P.O. Box 15186, Chevy
Chase, MD 20825-5186 USA. Also a tax-deductible $25 supporting
membership gets you a signed copy of the book and a one year subscription
to the _Meta Research Bulletin_.
-----------
Curt Roelle curtis...@jhuapl.edu
Space Dept. / Space Sciences Branch
Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory
Opinions are Personal and Do Not Reflect Those of JHU or the Laboratory.
B.M. Buck
newsgroups simultaneously with absolutely no connection between them...
I just finished reading the "It's turtles all the way down!" thread in
alt.fan.pratchett, and I then immediately see this unrelated thread in
alt.folklore.computers.
At least there was a reason for it in alt.fan.pratchett: Terry
Pratchett's writings are about a flat planet that is resting on the
backs of 4 elephants, who are standing on the back of turtle...
Later,
BP
--
-----
Buddha Buck bmb...@ultb.isc.rit.edu
(insert-file ".disclaimer")
"I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV."
Andrew Solovay
>It's very disconcerting to see the same, strange, subject appear in two
>newsgroups simultaneously with absolutely no connection between them...
>
>I just finished reading the "It's turtles all the way down!" thread in
>alt.fan.pratchett, and I then immediately see this unrelated thread in
>alt.folklore.computers.
Hardly "unrelated". The first posting in the "pratchett" thread
begins, "Hey guys, look what I just found on alt.folklore.computers!",
then quotes (in its entirety) the first post in *this* thread.
--
Andrew Solovay
"But that was in another country;
and besides, the wench is dead." ---Marlowe
Timothy Connal Delaney
>It's very disconcerting to see the same, strange, subject appear in two
>newsgroups simultaneously with absolutely no connection between them...
>I just finished reading the "It's turtles all the way down!" thread in
>alt.fan.pratchett, and I then immediately see this unrelated thread in
>alt.folklore.computers.
Actually, it started here (no, I am *not* making this up ... I BELIEVE in
the GREAT GOD PTERRY ...). Some comment about something in a lecture I
believe. Anyway, this got cross-posted to afp shortly after it began in afl
and has been running in both since. Obviously you missed both the original
discussion here and the original cross-post to afp.
See you in afp :)
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Tim Delaney u925...@wampyr.cc.uow.edu.au