Chip shortage--use relays

undefined Hancock-4

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Jul 7, 2021, 3:28:28 PM7/7/21

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Andy Burns

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Jul 7, 2021, 3:48:53 PM7/7/21

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undefined Hancock-4 wrote:

> Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
> how about solid durable relays?

Sounds good (literally)

<https://youtu.be/_j544ELauus?t=783>

but why rely on electromagnets? just use mechanical logic

<https://youtu.be/udCpBsylfIw?t=189>

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 7, 2021, 4:00:04 PM7/7/21

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On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 12:28:27 -0700 (PDT)
undefined Hancock-4 <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> There are news reports about a chip shortage, and they're not
> talking about Famous Amos cookies. Even new cars are in short
> supply.
>
> But here's a solution. Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
> how about solid durable relays? Multiple vendors to choose from.

Many years ago I got involved in an attempt to repair a "teaching
machine" that used a scroll of paper to ask questions and buttons to accept
answers (with holes in the paper for instructions). The whole thing was
driven by about a hundred relays some of which were sticking
intermittently. We never did get it to work reliably.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

Andreas Kohlbach

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Jul 7, 2021, 4:40:39 PM7/7/21

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Rubbish relays (yes, I just read about SSR, but just because... :-). Use
vacuum tubes! They're smaller and consume so much less electricity. ;-)

But serious, since also car manufacturers are hit hard by the shortage,
some could build a fab and only provide chips and other components for
their own if there is another problem in the future. In the meantime
selling chips (overpriced, that it makes sense from the economical point
of view) to competitors.

There are probably only a few car makers with financial background and
know-how be able to do this. I suppose Tesla is one.
--
Andreas

PGP fingerprint 952B0A9F12C2FD6C9F7E68DAA9C2EA89D1A370E0

Robin Vowels

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Jul 8, 2021, 2:25:46 AM7/8/21

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On Thursday, July 8, 2021 at 6:00:04 AM UTC+10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 12:28:27 -0700 (PDT)
> undefined Hancock-4 <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
> > There are news reports about a chip shortage, and they're not
> > talking about Famous Amos cookies. Even new cars are in short
> > supply.
> >
> > But here's a solution. Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
> > how about solid durable relays? Multiple vendors to choose from.
.
> Many years ago I got involved in an attempt to repair a "teaching
> machine" that used a scroll of paper to ask questions and buttons to accept
> answers (with holes in the paper for instructions). The whole thing was
> driven by about a hundred relays some of which were sticking
> intermittently. We never did get it to work reliably.

.
Some early computers used relays. They were typically used in card
readers and card punches, but found use elsewhere to turn on lights.
Pilot ACE (1951) and DEUCE used them extensively. They were used
in the power supply to turn on the motor in the card reader/punch,
help in the passage of the cards through the mechanism, display bits
on the console, and in positioning the moving heads on the drum.
The latter were high-speed relays (response time 4 milliseconds).
All had to be highly reliable.

undefined Hancock-4

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Jul 13, 2021, 6:23:26 PM7/13/21

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On Thursday, July 8, 2021 at 2:25:46 AM UTC-4, Robin Vowels wrote:

> Some early computers used relays. They were typically used in card
> readers and card punches, but found use elsewhere to turn on lights.
> Pilot ACE (1951) and DEUCE used them extensively. They were used
> in the power supply to turn on the motor in the card reader/punch,
> help in the passage of the cards through the mechanism, display bits
> on the console, and in positioning the moving heads on the drum.
> The latter were high-speed relays (response time 4 milliseconds).
> All had to be highly reliable.

In the 1960s IBM offered relays for sale, advertising in trade magazines.
Perhaps surplus from its operations.

undefined Hancock-4

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Jul 13, 2021, 6:25:38 PM7/13/21

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On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 4:40:39 PM UTC-4, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> But serious, since also car manufacturers are hit hard by the shortage,
> some could build a fab and only provide chips and other components for
> their own if there is another problem in the future. In the meantime
> selling chips (overpriced, that it makes sense from the economical point
> of view) to competitors.

Years ago Ford owned Philco and GM owned Delco. I don't know about
Delco, but Philco was big into electronics. Bitsavers has a ton of manuals.

anti...@math.uni.wroc.pl

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Jul 13, 2021, 7:17:32 PM7/13/21

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undefined Hancock-4 <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> There are news reports about a chip shortage, and they're not
> talking about Famous Amos cookies. Even new cars are in short
> supply.
>
> But here's a solution. Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
> how about solid durable relays? Multiple vendors to choose from.

Durable? Relays are rated for milions of cycles. If you try
to boot Linux on your relay computer, relays will wear out
quite early during boot: "Dear Sir, I turned your computer on
and it failed before printing login prompt".

--
Waldek Hebisch

anti...@math.uni.wroc.pl

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Jul 13, 2021, 7:28:52 PM7/13/21

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Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
> But serious, since also car manufacturers are hit hard by the shortage,
> some could build a fab and only provide chips and other components for
> their own if there is another problem in the future. In the meantime
> selling chips (overpriced, that it makes sense from the economical point
> of view) to competitors.
>
> There are probably only a few car makers with financial background and
> know-how be able to do this. I suppose Tesla is one.

IIUC shortage is result of "optimizing cost". Car makers did not
keep stock and to get low prices ordered well in advance. They
reduced orders due to low demand for cars. When demand came back
fabs were booked for more profitable computers and phones, so
car manufactures must wait. In few months everything should be
back to normal.

--
Waldek Hebisch

Scott Lurndal

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Jul 13, 2021, 8:22:53 PM7/13/21

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anti...@math.uni.wroc.pl writes:
>Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>> But serious, since also car manufacturers are hit hard by the shortage,
>> some could build a fab and only provide chips and other components for
>> their own if there is another problem in the future. In the meantime
>> selling chips (overpriced, that it makes sense from the economical point
>> of view) to competitors.
>>
>> There are probably only a few car makers with financial background and
>> know-how be able to do this. I suppose Tesla is one.
>
>IIUC shortage is result of "optimizing cost". Car makers did not
>keep stock and to get low prices ordered well in advance.

Back in the early 80's, congress under Reagan changed the tax
code and started charging taxes on inventory. That, more
than anything else, drove the industry to just-in-time inventory
systems. (that was also the year that Burroughs discarded all the
spare parts for mechanical adding machines and accounting machines
because of the change in the law
).

Freddy1X

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Jul 13, 2021, 9:00:57 PM7/13/21

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Scott Lurndal wrote:

> anti...@math.uni.wroc.pl writes:
( cuts )

>
> Back in the early 80's, congress under Reagan changed the tax
> code and started charging taxes on inventory. That, more
> than anything else, drove the industry to just-in-time inventory
> systems. (that was also the year that Burroughs discarded all the
> spare parts for mechanical adding machines and accounting machines
> because of the change in the law
> ).

--
Are companies still doing that thing in California where because of punitive
taxes, it is more economical to pack up whole railroad cars of inventory and
move it out of state for a few days a year?

Freddy,
talk about busy-work.

Danger! Never unplug refrigerator.

/|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\|
/| I may be demented \|
/| but I'm not crazy! \|
/|<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\|
* SPAyM trap: there is no X in my address *

Mike Spencer

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Jul 14, 2021, 1:44:05 AM7/14/21

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sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Back in the early 80's, congress under Reagan changed the tax
> code and started charging taxes on inventory. That, more
> than anything else, drove the industry to just-in-time inventory
> systems.

Was that Congress or was that Thor Power Tool (SCOTUS, 1979)?

Seriously shpxrq hc the publishing industry -- books going to
remainder sales or the pulper and out of print a year after original
publication.

Somebody more versed than I in the arcana of tax law and the chip
industry required to say if that's why car companies don't maintain
inventory.

> (that was also the year that Burroughs discarded all the
> spare parts for mechanical adding machines and accounting machines
> because of the change in the law).

Never mind that Thor decision ended a legally dubious tax dodge.
Books in print, spare parts and such homely items as rivets became
problematic. There's thousnads of kinds of rivets differing in
material, diameter, length, finish, tolerance, head type and over-all
type. A rivet company gets an industrial order for, say, 100,000 soft
iron, 3/16" diameter, 5/8" long, parkerized finish, pan head rivets.
Time and cost to do set-up is a substantial but one-time expense
avearged over 100,000 units. So they make 150,000 and put 50,000 in
inventory. Now I can order 100 rivets for (say) $0.01 each. When
inventory is a liability, I have to buy 100,000 or pay (say) $1.00
each to cover set-up.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

J. Clarke

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Jul 14, 2021, 5:57:17 AM7/14/21

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On 14 Jul 2021 02:41:32 -0300, Mike Spencer

<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
>sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
>> Back in the early 80's, congress under Reagan changed the tax
>> code and started charging taxes on inventory. That, more
>> than anything else, drove the industry to just-in-time inventory
>> systems.
>
>Was that Congress or was that Thor Power Tool (SCOTUS, 1979)?

Neither. It was some regulator at the IRS. The Supreme Court had a
chance to step on them--it didn't. Congress has had abundant
opportunity to step on them. It hasn't. And so the regulation, not
enacted by anybody answerable to the People of the United States,
stands. And so we no longer have companies maintaining stocks of
spare parts in perpetuity.

>Seriously shpxrq hc the publishing industry -- books going to
>remainder sales or the pulper and out of print a year after original
>publication.
>
>Somebody more versed than I in the arcana of tax law and the chip
>industry required to say if that's why car companies don't maintain
>inventory.

If you want to know the real why of that, I suggest reading "Toyota
Production System" by Taiichi Ohno, who invented same. "Just in time"
isn't the way it is implemented by Toyota though, it's right on time
and to the right place.

anti...@math.uni.wroc.pl

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Jul 14, 2021, 7:33:23 AM7/14/21

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Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> He probably referred to a Solid State Relay
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_relay>, which has no movable parts.

I doubt. In part I skipped he wrote:

: "Transit voltages don't bother relays. But high voltage short

: duration spikes can be sure death to a semiconductor".

Manufacturer references were about mechanical relays too.

--
Waldek Hebisch

gareth evans

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Jul 14, 2021, 8:06:40 AM7/14/21

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Westinghouse Brake And Signal company were famed for their
"Q Relay" used in railway signalling whereby one half of the closing
contact was platinum and t'other was carbon.

Quadibloc

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Jul 14, 2021, 1:12:43 PM7/14/21

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On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 1:28:28 PM UTC-6, undefined Hancock-4 wrote:

> But here's a solution. Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
> how about solid durable relays? Multiple vendors to choose from.

It is true that people had automobiles before computers were invented.

So, while relays can't replace the transistor - or even the vacuum tube -
for doing numerical calculations at high speed, perhaps they could meet
the simpler requirements of automobile manufacturers.

However, the cars that didn't have chips in them... date from before modern
fuel economy and emissions requirements.

John Savard

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 14, 2021, 2:30:03 PM7/14/21

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On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:12:41 -0700 (PDT)
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 1:28:28 PM UTC-6, undefined Hancock-4 wrote:
>
> > But here's a solution. Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
> > how about solid durable relays? Multiple vendors to choose from.
>
> It is true that people had automobiles before computers were invented.
>
> So, while relays can't replace the transistor - or even the vacuum tube -
> for doing numerical calculations at high speed, perhaps they could meet
> the simpler requirements of automobile manufacturers.

Hmm simpler - not so sure about that. A modern car engine
management controller is quite a complex beast with a lot of sensors and
several control points.

> However, the cars that didn't have chips in them... date from before
> modern fuel economy and emissions requirements.

Yep. OTOH a *really* modern car with batteries and electric motors
might well be simple enough to run with relays - if it weren't for the
requirement for an infotainment system (ye gods my spell checker knows that
mess of a word).

Charlie Gibbs

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Jul 14, 2021, 2:40:45 PM7/14/21

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Forget fuel economy and emissions requirements - they're trivial
compared to the real driver for chips - infotainment systems to
keep you distracted, backup cameras and lane drift detection and
automatic braking to save your ass now that you're distracted...

I dread the day my 2007 Civic gives up the ghost. I just pray
that I'll be able to find a car that will shut up and do what
I tell it. Maybe it's time to get into vintage cars...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

Robert Netzlof

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Jul 14, 2021, 3:43:23 PM7/14/21

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On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 6:23:26 PM UTC-4, undefined Hancock-4 wrote:
>
> In the 1960s IBM offered relays for sale, advertising in trade magazines.
>

Oddly enough, also advertised in Model Railroader.

Mike Spencer

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Jul 14, 2021, 3:50:25 PM7/14/21

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Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> Forget fuel economy and emissions requirements - they're trivial
> compared to the real driver for chips - infotainment systems to
> keep you distracted, backup cameras and lane drift detection and
> automatic braking to save your ass now that you're distracted...
>
> I dread the day my 2007 Civic gives up the ghost. I just pray
> that I'll be able to find a car that will shut up and do what
> I tell it. Maybe it's time to get into vintage cars...

My feeling, too. I'd go for a 1970s Land Rover, fully restored on a
stainless or galvanized frame -- about the same price as a low-end new
car. Only I'm too old to change a tie rod end in a snowbank or
replace a defective carb float or fuel pump in the rain -- the kind of
thing I routinely did until a decade or so ago. And where do I find a
good mechanic who even knows what a carburetor is?

I'm almost 80 and don't have the stamina or limberness to spend a day
crawling around under or bending over cars. In 1968, a Blond Babe
came into the shop with am early '30s Chevrolet that had braking only
on one wheel. We had no idea how to fix it. Except! We had one
mechanic who was 80 years old that year. He announced that he had
worked on that model when they were new, knew just what to do to
repair an all-mechanical, non-hydraulic braking system. He even owned
obsolete tools needed for the job. Took him two days but it was
working perfectaly when he was done. Wish I had his stamina!

General consumer goods may have deteriorated in quality across the
board but cars have improved enormously. Fifty years ago, a car that
hit 100,000 miles was a rare specimen and ones that needed expensive
major work by 40,000 mi. were commonplace. No longer true.

So I fear that if/when my now very reliable Toy Ota becomes
unreliable, I'll be obliged to be assimilated by the auto-borg.

Quadibloc

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Jul 14, 2021, 9:18:34 PM7/14/21

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On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 1:50:25 PM UTC-6, Mike Spencer wrote:

> I'm almost 80 and don't have the stamina or limberness to spend a day
> crawling around under or bending over cars. In 1968, a Blond Babe
> came into the shop with am early '30s Chevrolet that had braking only
> on one wheel. We had no idea how to fix it. Except! We had one
> mechanic who was 80 years old that year. He announced that he had
> worked on that model when they were new, knew just what to do to
> repair an all-mechanical, non-hydraulic braking system. He even owned
> obsolete tools needed for the job. Took him two days but it was
> working perfectaly when he was done. Wish I had his stamina!

She was very fortunate to have come to the right place.

John Savard

Kurt Weiske

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Jul 15, 2021, 1:05:59 PM7/15/21

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To: Charlie Gibbs
-=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

CG> I dread the day my 2007 Civic gives up the ghost. I just pray
CG> that I'll be able to find a car that will shut up and do what
CG> I tell it. Maybe it's time to get into vintage cars...

I've got my eye on a 1985 Mercedes 300D turbodiesel near me; with 186,000
miles, a mechanical fuel injection system and limited electronics it's
probably got a good half-million miles left in it.

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org
| 1:218/700@fidonet

--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org

Gerard Schildberger

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Jul 15, 2021, 2:09:06 PM7/15/21

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On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 1:40:45 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2021-07-14, Quadibloc wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 1:28:28 PM UTC-6, undefined Hancock-4
> > wrote:
> >
> >> But here's a solution. Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
> >> how about solid durable relays? Multiple vendors to choose from.
> >
> > It is true that people had automobiles before computers were invented.
> >
> > So, while relays can't replace the transistor - or even the vacuum
> > tube - for doing numerical calculations at high speed, perhaps they
> > could meet the simpler requirements of automobile manufacturers.
> >
> > However, the cars that didn't have chips in them... date from before
> > modern fuel economy and emissions requirements.
> Forget fuel economy and emissions requirements - they're trivial
> compared to the real driver for chips - infotainment systems to
> keep you distracted, backup cameras and lane drift detection and
> automatic braking to save your ass now that you're distracted...
>
> I dread the day my 2007 Civic gives up the ghost. I just pray
> that I'll be able to find a car that will shut up and do what
> I tell it. Maybe it's time to get into vintage cars...
>
> --
> /~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft

> \ / <cgi... | has stolen their car and parked

> X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
> / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

I too, dread the day my 1977 Honda CVCC gives up the ghost.
Very hard to get parts for as most older Hondas (and other
brands) that were in junk yards were melted down.
Probably the last Honda to use a choke. It serves as a backup
for my manual transmission 1985 Jeep. Not a computer chip
in sight. Nor fuel injection. _____________ Gerard Schildberger

greymaus

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Jul 15, 2021, 3:36:49 PM7/15/21

to

On 2021-07-14, Mike Spencer <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> Forget fuel economy and emissions requirements - they're trivial
>> compared to the real driver for chips - infotainment systems to
>> keep you distracted, backup cameras and lane drift detection and
>> automatic braking to save your ass now that you're distracted...
>>
>> I dread the day my 2007 Civic gives up the ghost. I just pray
>> that I'll be able to find a car that will shut up and do what
>> I tell it. Maybe it's time to get into vintage cars...
>
> My feeling, too. I'd go for a 1970s Land Rover, fully restored on a
> stainless or galvanized frame -- about the same price as a low-end new

I wouldn't and I had one. Sand in the brake disks caused eithe loud or
quiet shreeching, the brakes needed constant adjusting, etc. An
excellent drive, until the night that the TV died, and without
calculating what it meant I headed for the neares TV Box shifter, about
30 miles away, an hours drive there and bac. Next was a Daihatsu, whci i
did not keep greased, and then back to a LR, excellent machine, with a
five cylinder Austrian Engine.

Now a Honda. Never drive anything else again.

> car. Only I'm too old to change a tie rod end in a snowbank or
> replace a defective carb float or fuel pump in the rain -- the kind of
> thing I routinely did until a decade or so ago. And where do I find a
> good mechanic who even knows what a carburetor is?
>
> I'm almost 80 and don't have the stamina or limberness to spend a day
> crawling around under or bending over cars. In 1968, a Blond Babe
> came into the shop with am early '30s Chevrolet that had braking only
> on one wheel. We had no idea how to fix it. Except! We had one
> mechanic who was 80 years old that year. He announced that he had
> worked on that model when they were new, knew just what to do to
> repair an all-mechanical, non-hydraulic braking system. He even owned
> obsolete tools needed for the job. Took him two days but it was
> working perfectaly when he was done. Wish I had his stamina!
>

There are two antique car clubs in the area, and there is no love lost
between them, I think. One has meetings at Durrow, Co. Leix. I don't know
if they happen in the lockdowns, but it is a beautiful drive, to see
neautiful cars!

--
grey...@mail.com
Down the wrong maushole.

Peter Flass

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Jul 15, 2021, 5:04:12 PM7/15/21

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Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 07:27:00 -0700, Kurt Weiske wrote:
>>
>> To: Charlie Gibbs
>> -=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-
>>

>>> I dread the day my 2007 Civic gives up the ghost. I just pray

>>> that I'll be able to find a car that will shut up and do what

>>> I tell it. Maybe it's time to get into vintage cars...
>>
>> I've got my eye on a 1985 Mercedes 300D turbodiesel near me; with 186,000
>> miles, a mechanical fuel injection system and limited electronics it's
>> probably got a good half-million miles left in it.
>

> 186,000 miles is nothing for a almost 40 year old car. That'll be just
> 5,000 a year.

I’ve got close to that on my 16yo Accord.

>
> Dad of my girlfriend back in the mid/late 80s in Germany had a 200 (90
> horsepower 2 liter gas engine with carburetor), built 1980. In 1988 I
> went from Germany on holiday to Spain (round trip of about 3,500
> kilometers or more (more than 2,000 miles). Was in already bad shape for
> an 8 year old "German quality" car. Rust everywhere, but the engine still
> fine. In 1989 my girlfriend opted to total it (thank God she and the
> others weren't hurt, especially because it hadn't airbags). I remember it
> had over 200,000 kilometers on the clock by then. Might have had another
> 5-10 years until the shell might finally have fallen apart.
>
> Dunno about Mercedes' quality today. But there are still a lot of Toyotas
> or Hondas on the roads from 2000 or so which look like new (apart from
> the 20 year old design). There are also a lot of Mercedes around, but
> those are mainly newer models (2010-ish or so). Can't remember to have
> seen many older models here in Canada.

--
Pete

Charlie Gibbs

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Jul 15, 2021, 8:00:48 PM7/15/21

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On 2021-07-15, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 07:27:00 -0700, Kurt Weiske wrote:
>>
>>> To: Charlie Gibbs
>>> -=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-
>>>
>>>> I dread the day my 2007 Civic gives up the ghost. I just pray
>>>> that I'll be able to find a car that will shut up and do what
>>>> I tell it. Maybe it's time to get into vintage cars...
>>>
>>> I've got my eye on a 1985 Mercedes 300D turbodiesel near me; with 186,000
>>> miles, a mechanical fuel injection system and limited electronics it's
>>> probably got a good half-million miles left in it.
>>
>> 186,000 miles is nothing for a almost 40 year old car. That'll be just
>> 5,000 a year.
>
> I’ve got close to that on my 16yo Accord.

I put 250,000 km on a 1984 Civic, and might still be driving it if
it wasn't totaled in a collision. Our 1998 CR-V (the only vehicle
we've ever bought brand-new) had 518,000 km on it when the transmission
died; we still ask ourselves whether we should have just put in a new
one rather than letting it go, since the body was still in good shape.
(We still see some around, usually with about 275,000 km on them.)
The 2007 Civic I bought to replace it had 100,000 km on it at the
time; it's now up to 230,000 and still going strong.

Yes, we're Honda people (my wife had a 1981 Civic when we met).

Kurt Weiske

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Jul 15, 2021, 8:11:39 PM7/15/21

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To: Andreas Kohlbach
Re: Re: Chip shortage--use relays
By: Andreas Kohlbach to alt.folklore.computers on Thu Jul 15 2021 03:12 pm

AK> Dunno about Mercedes' quality today. But there are still a lot of Toyotas
AK> or Hondas on the roads from 2000 or so which look like new (apart from
AK> the 20 year old design). There are also a lot of Mercedes around, but
AK> those are mainly newer models (2010-ish or so). Can't remember to have
AK> seen many older models here in Canada.

The 1999-2003 E series appear to have reclaimed the reliability reputation that was lost in the late '80s to early '90s.

songbird

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Jul 15, 2021, 9:23:42 PM7/15/21

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Charlie Gibbs wrote:
...

> I put 250,000 km on a 1984 Civic, and might still be driving it if
> it wasn't totaled in a collision. Our 1998 CR-V (the only vehicle
> we've ever bought brand-new) had 518,000 km on it when the transmission
> died; we still ask ourselves whether we should have just put in a new
> one rather than letting it go, since the body was still in good shape.
> (We still see some around, usually with about 275,000 km on them.)
> The 2007 Civic I bought to replace it had 100,000 km on it at the
> time; it's now up to 230,000 and still going strong.
>
> Yes, we're Honda people (my wife had a 1981 Civic when we met).

i had a '97 Civic, basic DX, added air conditioning because i
knew i was going to be on the road at times in places where it
wasn't cool. only cost an extra $500. i paid $13,500 for it and
while it wasn't trouble free it was mostly issues because it was
stored outside and the exhaust system would keep rusting out. i
had the brakes done a few times and the timing belt changed once
and then the regular fluids and oil changes.

when i sold it just a few years ago the motor would start
right up. i had mouse problems though because it was sitting
outside too much and i was hardly driving it. and there was
rust starting up that would have needed to be fixed, and the
back end was in need of some work and a paint job. sitting
outside in the sun that long just didn't do it much good either.

still even with the mouse problems, when i put it out for
sale at the end of the drive i had someone stop in and ask
about it and while i wanted 1400 for it he said 1100 and i
wanted it gone so i said ok. but pretty much as soon as i
started it up he said he'd take it.

it only had about 140,000 miles on it. i haven't seen it
driving around but i wondered how he did with it. the big
thing that was nice was that he was enough of a mechanic that
he could do a lot of work on it himself and that would save
a ton of money. the main reason i got rid of it was that i
didn't want to put a lot more money into it to fix the
problems and still be stuck not driving it much and it still
sitting outside. insurance prices are rediculous so it just
made no sense to keep it when i was hardly driving it.

it was a fun car to drive and i do miss it.

songbird

John Levine

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Jul 15, 2021, 9:51:55 PM7/15/21

to

It appears that undefined Hancock-4 <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> said:
>There are news reports about a chip shortage, and they're not
>talking about Famous Amos cookies. Even new cars are in short
>supply.
>

>But here's a solution. Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
>how about solid durable relays? Multiple vendors to choose from.

TSMC and UMC, the two large chip makers in Taiwan, say that they
have increased auto chip production and the shortage should ease
in a few weeks. Better cancel those orders for 10,000,000 relays now.

https://on.ft.com/2UklWvQ

--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Chris Adams

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Jul 15, 2021, 11:07:28 PM7/15/21

to

Once upon a time, Gerard Schildberger <gera...@rrt.net> said:
>I too, dread the day my 1977 Honda CVCC gives up the ghost.

I drove a 1977 Honda Civic - the wagon version even (which made it that
much harder to get parts, even 25 years ago when I was still driving
it). I would not dread it giving up the ghost!

FYI: there's a 1977 Honda Civic in the Smithsonian American History
museum.

--
Chris Adams <cma...@cmadams.net>

Mike Spencer

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Jul 16, 2021, 1:28:37 AM7/16/21

to

We were the shop, in a college town with crazy students and eccentric
professors, that worked on all the weird cars, viz. all the "foreign"
ones (back when "foreign car" meant something.) So the gas station
that failed her safety inspection sent her straight to us. Normally,
we turned away "domestic" cars but we cheerfully made an exception for
that one.

Mike Spencer

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Jul 16, 2021, 1:56:00 AM7/16/21

to

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> I put 250,000 km on a 1984 Civic, and might still be driving it if
> it wasn't totaled in a collision. Our 1998 CR-V (the only vehicle
> we've ever bought brand-new) had 518,000 km on it when the transmission
> died; we still ask ourselves whether we should have just put in a new
> one rather than letting it go, since the body was still in good shape.
> (We still see some around, usually with about 275,000 km on them.)
> The 2007 Civic I bought to replace it had 100,000 km on it at the
> time; it's now up to 230,000 and still going strong.

Straying further OT...

The mechanic of whom I wrote in another post who was 80 years old and
still working in 1968 spent most of his adult life with a single
employer. He was chauffeur and mechanic for a rich woman who bought a
new car and employed him to drive it.

The car (I'm sorry that I don't recall the marque) had a white summer
body and black winter body. Old Pete (who wasn't old then) swapped
them seasonally and did any needed refurbishment on the one not in
use. When there was no driving to do, his only responsibility was to
maintain the car and he did so meticulously for decades.

He said that she'd call him and say, "I want to go to Florida
tomorrow" and he'd drive her straight through to Florida from New
England with no overnights. That's a hard slog on the interstates now,
never mind on the roads of the '20s or '30s.

Pete said that the greatest disappointment of his life was that his
employer died when he had driven that car well over 900,000 miles and
he really, really wanted to be able to say he'd driven it a million
miles!

gareth evans

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Jul 16, 2021, 8:20:33 AM7/16/21

to

On 16/07/2021 13:08, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> On 16 Jul 2021 02:53:23 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>> He said that she'd call him and say, "I want to go to Florida
>> tomorrow" and he'd drive her straight through to Florida from New
>> England with no overnights. That's a hard slog on the interstates now,
>> never mind on the roads of the '20s or '30s.
>

> Also if you just compare the 1980s to today.
>
> As mentioned I was going to Spain in the 1980s with my ex girlfriend. Was
> talking to the brother of my ex a few years ago what an adventure it was
> (some 1200 miles) and he didn't quite understand, because he recently
> (2015) also did a similar trip. But his car was a modern Toyota with air
> condition, GPS and all that modern s**t you have today. Back in 1985 my
> Beetle had no AC, let alone GPS. Not even power brakes or steering. It
> was hot (of course, summer in Spain) and the only cooing came from
> lowering the windows.
>
> Kids today don't understand.
>

Especially when there were only landline telephones with
rotary dials ...

Interview for a secretarial position ...

Well, Miss, do you use a Diktaphone?

... No, I use a pencil.

Charlie Gibbs

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Jul 16, 2021, 12:33:35 PM7/16/21

to

On 2021-07-16, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On 16 Jul 2021 02:53:23 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>

>> He said that she'd call him and say, "I want to go to Florida
>> tomorrow" and he'd drive her straight through to Florida from New
>> England with no overnights. That's a hard slog on the interstates now,
>> never mind on the roads of the '20s or '30s.
>

> Also if you just compare the 1980s to today.
>
> As mentioned I was going to Spain in the 1980s with my ex girlfriend. Was
> talking to the brother of my ex a few years ago what an adventure it was
> (some 1200 miles) and he didn't quite understand, because he recently
> (2015) also did a similar trip. But his car was a modern Toyota with air
> condition, GPS and all that modern s**t you have today. Back in 1985 my
> Beetle had no AC, let alone GPS. Not even power brakes or steering. It
> was hot (of course, summer in Spain) and the only cooing came from
> lowering the windows.

One thing I really miss is vents that directed ram air into the cabin.
If you're not stuck in a traffic jam, that took care of most of the
cases where today you have no alternative but to use air conditioning.
Some cars with that little extra pane at the front of the side window
(I don't know the offical name, we called them "no-drafts") let you
pivot it far enough that it directed air in as well. More natural,
less thermal shock.

> Kids today don't understand.

An automotive version of the Four Yorkshiremen...?

Bob Eager

unread,

Jul 16, 2021, 12:49:16 PM7/16/21

to

On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 16:32:49 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> Some cars with that little extra pane at the front of the side window (I
> don't know the offical name, we called them "no-drafts")

We called them 'quarter lights'.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Peter Flass

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Jul 16, 2021, 1:56:09 PM7/16/21

to

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On 16 Jul 2021 02:53:23 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>

>> He said that she'd call him and say, "I want to go to Florida
>> tomorrow" and he'd drive her straight through to Florida from New
>> England with no overnights. That's a hard slog on the interstates now,
>> never mind on the roads of the '20s or '30s.
>

> Also if you just compare the 1980s to today.
>
> As mentioned I was going to Spain in the 1980s with my ex girlfriend. Was
> talking to the brother of my ex a few years ago what an adventure it was
> (some 1200 miles) and he didn't quite understand, because he recently
> (2015) also did a similar trip. But his car was a modern Toyota with air
> condition, GPS and all that modern s**t you have today. Back in 1985 my
> Beetle had no AC, let alone GPS. Not even power brakes or steering. It
> was hot (of course, summer in Spain) and the only cooing came from
> lowering the windows.

Of course, back then it probably had vent windows in the front. Worst thing
that happened to cars was when they were eliminated.

>
> Kids today don't understand.

--
Pete

Peter Flass

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Jul 16, 2021, 1:56:09 PM7/16/21

to

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On 16 Jul 2021 00:00:09 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> On 2021-07-15, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 07:27:00 -0700, Kurt Weiske wrote:
>>>
>>>> 186,000 miles is nothing for a almost 40 year old car. That'll be just
>>>> 5,000 a year.
>>>
>>> I’ve got close to that on my 16yo Accord.
>>
>> I put 250,000 km on a 1984 Civic, and might still be driving it if
>> it wasn't totaled in a collision. Our 1998 CR-V (the only vehicle
>> we've ever bought brand-new) had 518,000 km on it when the transmission
>> died; we still ask ourselves whether we should have just put in a new
>> one rather than letting it go, since the body was still in good shape.
>> (We still see some around, usually with about 275,000 km on them.)
>> The 2007 Civic I bought to replace it had 100,000 km on it at the
>> time; it's now up to 230,000 and still going strong.
>

> When I mentioned the trip from Germany to Spain 1988 in the 8 year old
> Mercedes already in a bad shape, I did the same tour 1985 in a
> Beetle. She was from 1969 - 4 years younger than me - and my first
> car. Already in a bad shape too. Never saw any 16 year old girl in such a
> bad shape in the 80s. ;-) She made the round trip, but barely. Probably
> suffered a lot from the bad bumpy French roads. One headlight frequently
> fell out, only held by its cables. Funny at night when it suddenly
> started wobbling, like someone waving a flashlight.

Too bad this was before Gorilla glue was invented.

>
> Went there with a friend, who just picked up his driving license two days
> before. I let him drive home from the office. First action was pulling
> out of the parking lot, only to hit a lamp pole, pushing the bumper into
> the mudguard. I later drove the first leg. Close to the Swiss border next
> day he drove. Glad the Autobahn was straight so he could get some
> experience.
>
> Thinking back, what an adventure, having an inexperienced driver learn to
> drive in a foreign country. Gladly there were no further incidences.

>
>> Yes, we're Honda people (my wife had a 1981 Civic when we met).
>

> The second car I had was given to me from a friend who lost his driving
> license, just to drive him to work. Was that year "Walk the dinosaur" was
> playing on the radio frequently, so it was 1987. He paid gas and all, and
> when I was not at his "service" I could use it for ever I wanted. A dream
> come true for a 20 year old without job to drive a car for free. That was
> a Honda Accord from 1979 (I think). In the three years (until 1990) I
> drove it there was not a single problem other that the fuel gauge
> displayed bogus values.
>
> Years later I learned both cars were totaled by the owners they were sold
> to.

--
Pete

undefined Hancock-4

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Jul 16, 2021, 2:09:40 PM7/16/21

to

On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 2:40:45 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> Forget fuel economy and emissions requirements - they're trivial
> compared to the real driver for chips - infotainment systems to
> keep you distracted, backup cameras and lane drift detection and
> automatic braking to save your ass now that you're distracted...

Western Electric offers a line of CRTs to provide displays.
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/30s/Electronics-1939-03-OCR-Page-0055.pdf#search=%22western%20electric%20cathode%20ray%22

undefined Hancock-4

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Jul 16, 2021, 2:10:48 PM7/16/21

to

Here are some IBM ads.

Police communications, numerical control 2 pgs
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/60s/68/Electronics-1968-06-24-OCR-Page-0122.pdf#search=%22ibm%20wire%20contact%20relay%22
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/60s/68/Electronics-1968-06-24-OCR-Page-0123.pdf#search=%22ibm%20wire%20contact%20relay%22

Elevators 2 pgs
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/60s/69/Electronics-1969-03-31-OCR-Page-0116.pdf#search=%22ibm%20wire%20contact%20relay%22
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/60s/69/Electronics-1969-03-31-OCR-Page-0117.pdf#search=%22ibm%20wire%20contact%20relay%22

Control system 2 pgs
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/60s/69/Electronics-1969-01-20-OCR-Page-0132.pdf#search=%22ibm%20wire%20contact%20relay%22
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/60s/69/Electronics-1969-01-20-OCR-Page-0133.pdf#search=%22ibm%20wire%20contact%20relay%22

undefined Hancock-4

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Jul 16, 2021, 2:49:49 PM7/16/21

to

On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 1:12:43 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> So, while relays can't replace the transistor - or even the vacuum tube -
> for doing numerical calculations at high speed, perhaps they could meet
> the simpler requirements of automobile manufacturers.

[If this is a duplicate post, I apologize]

Tubes
RCA Preferred tubes save money
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/40s/Electronics-1949-11-OCR-Page-0286.pdf#search=%22rca%20preferred%20tubes%22

RCA tube service life
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/40s/Electronics-1942-10-OCR-Page-0168.pdf#search=%22tube%20last%20longer%22

RCA CRT for displays
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/40s/Electronics-1943-10-OCR-Page-0179.pdf#search=%22rca%20preferred%20tubes%22

Tung Sol power regulator
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/59/Electronics-1959-04-10-OCR-Page-0075.pdf#search=%22tung%20sol%20power%20regulator%22

undefined Hancock-4

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Jul 16, 2021, 2:51:09 PM7/16/21

to

On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:56:09 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:

> Of course, back then it probably had vent windows in the front. Worst thing
> that happened to cars was when they were eliminated.

+1

undefined Hancock-4

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Jul 16, 2021, 2:54:36 PM7/16/21

to

On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 12:33:35 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> One thing I really miss is vents that directed ram air into the cabin.
> If you're not stuck in a traffic jam, that took care of most of the
> cases where today you have no alternative but to use air conditioning.
> Some cars with that little extra pane at the front of the side window
> (I don't know the offical name, we called them "no-drafts") let you
> pivot it far enough that it directed air in as well. More natural,
> less thermal shock.

Unfortunately, it seems to much of driving today is in traffic or
stopped at long traffic lights. While I miss those vents, I ain't
giving up my car's a/c. I do not miss my youth sitting in
heavy traffic without a/c.

(Also, on my car, the HVAC can be set on vent mode, either fan
or natural, which will bring in some outside air. On mild days it
is adequate.

Questor

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Jul 16, 2021, 3:51:39 PM7/16/21

to

Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn made it
easy to snake something through them and open the door. There's a good reason
why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated auto break-ins and theft.

Mike Spencer

unread,

Jul 16, 2021, 4:30:41 PM7/16/21

to

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> One thing I really miss is vents that directed ram air into the cabin.
> If you're not stuck in a traffic jam, that took care of most of the
> cases where today you have no alternative but to use air conditioning.
> Some cars with that little extra pane at the front of the side window
> (I don't know the offical name, we called them "no-drafts") let you
> pivot it far enough that it directed air in as well. More natural,
> less thermal shock.

When I was in the trade, we called them vent-wings. Alleged
problem: they offered a way to break into locked cars relatively
inconspiuously. Real problem: rust in the channel and latch may make
them uncloseable.

My F250 is old enough to have that and I love it.

I miss even more the drip channel over the doors that allowed you to
keep the driver's window open in light rain. Now rain or even fog
condensation drips directly into the cabin.

J. Clarke

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Jul 16, 2021, 5:26:00 PM7/16/21

to

They only offer that line to people who have access to time machines.

Charlie Gibbs

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Jul 16, 2021, 6:41:15 PM7/16/21

to

One of the few things I didn't like about our 1989 CR-V was that
the sides were angled somewhat inwards - enough that one day when
we encountered a sudden rainstorm and we had left the windows open,
a lot of water had gotten in by the time we got back.

Charlie Gibbs

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Jul 16, 2021, 6:41:16 PM7/16/21

to

On 2021-07-16, undefined Hancock-4 <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 12:33:35 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> One thing I really miss is vents that directed ram air into the cabin.
>> If you're not stuck in a traffic jam, that took care of most of the
>> cases where today you have no alternative but to use air conditioning.
>> Some cars with that little extra pane at the front of the side window
>> (I don't know the offical name, we called them "no-drafts") let you
>> pivot it far enough that it directed air in as well. More natural,
>> less thermal shock.
>
> Unfortunately, it seems to much of driving today is in traffic or
> stopped at long traffic lights. While I miss those vents, I ain't
> giving up my car's a/c. I do not miss my youth sitting in
> heavy traffic without a/c.

Not that I'm advocating getting rid of A/C, but it'd sure be nice
to have the option of naturally-fed air.

> (Also, on my car, the HVAC can be set on vent mode, either fan
> or natural, which will bring in some outside air. On mild days
> it is adequate.

I've yet to see a car that didn't require the fan to get a decent
amount of air into the cabin. Remember those old cars that had
a vent that popped up in front of the middle of the windshield?
Lots of air there. My '70s GMC Suburbans had a handle down by
my knee that I could pull to open a door that directed copious
volumes of air in.

Pet peeve: fans that can't be shut off, only slowed down.
Remember convection heating? The last thing I want is a
mandatory case of wind chill.

Dan Espen

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Jul 16, 2021, 7:14:19 PM7/16/21

to

Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:

> On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 16:32:49 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Some cars with that little extra pane at the front of the side window (I
>> don't know the offical name, we called them "no-drafts")
>
> We called them 'quarter lights'.

Fly window.

--
Dan Espen

Quadibloc

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Jul 17, 2021, 10:06:18 AM7/17/21

to

On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:

> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn made it
> easy to snake something through them and open the door. There's a good reason
> why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated auto break-ins and theft.

Surely the design could have been modified so that it would be impossible to force
them open without either breaking the glass or ripping off the metal of the door?

But in any case, that's not a good reason. Surely the appropriate solution to a
problem like that, which imposes the costs where they belong - on dishonest
automobile thieves, not honest car owners - would be to increase penalties for
car theft so that those penalties would work as a successful deterrent.

We haven't had any nuclear wars, so what I mean by a "successful deterrent" is
one that results in us not having any car thefts for a similar length of time.

Of course, perhaps one stupid person will have to steal a car, so that people can
actually see the penalty carried out for it to have the required emotional impact
to achieve the desired result.

Of course, there's that pesky Eighth Amendment...

John Savard

Quadibloc

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Jul 17, 2021, 10:09:18 AM7/17/21

to

In another newsgroup, this same poster offered advertisements in Electronics
magazine in 1945 and 1946 as evidence that Keufell and Esser were still selling
slide rules in 1995 and 1996.

Apparently he has some difficulty in navigating the World Radio History web
page.

John Savard

Quadibloc

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Jul 17, 2021, 10:11:21 AM7/17/21

to

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 8:09:18 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> In another newsgroup,

Oh, no, that was another thread in this newsgroup, and you had also
replied to that post of his.

John Savard

Scott Lurndal

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Jul 17, 2021, 10:42:50 AM7/17/21

to

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>
>> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn made it
>> easy to snake something through them and open the door. There's a good reason
>> why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated auto break-ins and theft.

The main reasons that they were no longer included on cars is twofold:

1 - With the introduction of air-conditioners to automobiles,
they were no longer necessary.

2 - With the push for higher fleet mileage, it was found that the
quarter lights were detrimental to airflow and the removal of
them helped improve gas mileage.

Kurt Weiske

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Jul 17, 2021, 11:03:07 AM7/17/21

to

To: Mike Spencer
-=> Mike Spencer wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

MS> When I was in the trade, we called them vent-wings. Alleged
MS> problem: they offered a way to break into locked cars relatively
MS> inconspiuously. Real problem: rust in the channel and latch may make
MS> them uncloseable.

I drove a 1977 VW Rabbit diesel for many years, and had to buy 3 or 4
replacements over the years. The pick-a-part places started running out of
them, so I wasn't the only one getting broken into.

At least they were easy to replace, with rear view mirror adhesive.

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org
| 1:218/700@fidonet

... Move towards the unimportant
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org

J. Clarke

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Jul 17, 2021, 11:48:41 AM7/17/21

to

My experience of Hancock is that he just has some difficulty.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 17, 2021, 12:30:02 PM7/17/21

to

On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:42:46 GMT
sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
> >On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
> >
> >> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn
> >> made it easy to snake something through them and open the door.
> >> There's a good reason why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated
> >> auto break-ins and theft.
>
> The main reasons that they were no longer included on cars is twofold:
>
> 1 - With the introduction of air-conditioners to automobiles,
> they were no longer necessary.

They were removed on this side of the pond too where air
conditioners are not universal even now, and were rare and expensive when
the quarterlights went away.

> 2 - With the push for higher fleet mileage, it was found that the
> quarter lights were detrimental to airflow and the removal of
> them helped improve gas mileage.

This is likely the main reason - there was a huge push for
efficiency starting in the 1970s.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

Questor

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Jul 17, 2021, 4:39:44 PM7/17/21

to

On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 07:06:17 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn made it
>> easy to snake something through them and open the door. There's a good reason
>> why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated auto break-ins and theft.
>
>Surely the design could have been modified so that it would be impossible to force
>them open without either breaking the glass or ripping off the metal of the door?

Perhaps. I'm not a mechanical engineer, so I don't know much about what would
be cheap and easy to do. (And if it's not cheap and easy, it's not going to be
done across many thousands of cars.) It seems to me that the nature of the
vent -- the vertical pivot, a short and simple mechanism -- lends itself to this
kind of exploit.

>But in any case, that's not a good reason. Surely the appropriate solution to a
>problem like that, which imposes the costs where they belong - on dishonest
>automobile thieves, not honest car owners - would be to increase penalties for
>car theft so that those penalties would work as a successful deterrent.

What a naive, idealistic -- and punitive point of view. You seem to be unaware
of just how quickly and easily a reasonably skilled thief can break into a car
through a vent window. The correct unit of time to use is seconds, not minutes.
Couple that with the obvious impossibility of patrolling or monitoring even a
majority of cars. Unless they get caught in the act, thieves breaking into cars
rarely get caught, so the risk/reward ratio for them is generally favorable.

We should be able to leave our doors unlocked too -- but we don't, because
simply locking a door is a more effective deterrent than raising the penalties
for burglary. If vent windows are a serious vulnerability, then eliminating
them will prevent more break-ins than harsher penalties. This goes along with
other common sense precautions, such as not leaving any valuables in your car.

Aside: Years ago I had a old, bulky Telefunken portable multi-band radio that I
kept in my car so I could listen to FM stations, as the car was not so equipped.
One night thieves broke into my car, ostensibly to steal it, but when they got
their hands on it they realized it wasn't worth taking. In the morning I found
my car had been broken into, but nothing was taken -- they left the radio on the
front seat.

>We haven't had any nuclear wars, so what I mean by a "successful deterrent" is
>one that results in us not having any car thefts for a similar length of time.
>
>Of course, perhaps one stupid person will have to steal a car, so that people can
>actually see the penalty carried out for it to have the required emotional impact
>to achieve the desired result.
>
>Of course, there's that pesky Eighth Amendment...

If increasing the penalties for crimes was truly effective, then we could simply
assign the death penalty to every infraction and presto, crime would virtually
stop overnight. At some point increased penalties have no appreciable effect.
Rather than incurring the time and expense of grinding through the judicial
system, reducing or eliminating the opportunity for a crime to occur is cheaper
and often easier. This has been the trend in car design, but there is always a
new wrinkle: a big problem these days is catalytic converter thefts.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 18, 2021, 1:30:11 AM7/18/21

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On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 20:39:25 GMT
use...@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:

> If increasing the penalties for crimes was truly effective, then we could
> simply assign the death penalty to every infraction and presto, crime
> would virtually stop overnight.

This used to be the case, at least for peasants. The result was to
encourage murder - if you can get hanged for stealing a loaf of bread
you'll kill anyone who catches you if you can, you might get away and if you
don't you're no worse off.

Dave Garland

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Jul 18, 2021, 2:53:08 AM7/18/21

to

I expect the real reason was to save the manufacturer money. Several
parts (divider strip, weatherstripping, glass, hinges) plus the labor
to install them, all at a cost beyond just having a slightly bigger
piece of window glass. There is probably a tiny aerodynamic
disadvantage to vent windows as well (less smooth), for that extra
0.01 mpg gain..

greymaus

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Jul 18, 2021, 3:52:43 AM7/18/21

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On 2021-07-17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:42:46 GMT
> sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>> >On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>> >
>> >> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn
>> >> made it easy to snake something through them and open the door.
>> >> There's a good reason why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated
>> >> auto break-ins and theft.
>>
>> The main reasons that they were no longer included on cars is twofold:
>>
>> 1 - With the introduction of air-conditioners to automobiles,
>> they were no longer necessary.
>
> They were removed on this side of the pond too where air
> conditioners are not universal even now, and were rare and expensive when
> the quarterlights went away.
>
>> 2 - With the push for higher fleet mileage, it was found that the
>> quarter lights were detrimental to airflow and the removal of
>> them helped improve gas mileage.
>
> This is likely the main reason - there was a huge push for
> efficiency starting in the 1970s.
>

I remember that time, the car companies went in a lot for reducing
everything that could be reduced. I was visiting somewhere and had to
bring a dog that was inclined to get car sick if he saw the road passing
by, so it wasput in the booot(trunk). When I arrived and checked, the dog had
chewed the wires, and I had to reconnect them. Minimum length.

--
grey...@mail.com
Down the wrong maushole.

Joe Pfeiffer

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Jul 18, 2021, 10:25:12 AM7/18/21

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Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> writes:

> On 7/17/2021 9:06 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>>
>>> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn made it
>>> easy to snake something through them and open the door. There's a good reason
>>> why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated auto break-ins and
>>> theft.

There were enough easy ways to break in to a vehicle in those days (my
late lamented 1978 Newport, a four door hardtop, had no frames around
the windows...) that I doubt it was a serious factor in getting rid of
vent windows.

>> Surely the design could have been modified so that it would be
>> impossible to force
>> them open without either breaking the glass or ripping off the metal of the door?
>> But in any case, that's not a good reason. Surely the appropriate
>> solution to a
>> problem like that, which imposes the costs where they belong - on dishonest
>> automobile thieves, not honest car owners - would be to increase penalties for
>> car theft so that those penalties would work as a successful deterrent.
>> We haven't had any nuclear wars, so what I mean by a "successful
>> deterrent" is
>> one that results in us not having any car thefts for a similar length of time.
>> Of course, perhaps one stupid person will have to steal a car, so
>> that people can
>> actually see the penalty carried out for it to have the required emotional impact
>> to achieve the desired result.
>> Of course, there's that pesky Eighth Amendment...
>> John Savard
>>
> I expect the real reason was to save the manufacturer money. Several
> parts (divider strip, weatherstripping, glass, hinges) plus the labor
> to install them, all at a cost beyond just having a slightly bigger
> piece of window glass. There is probably a tiny aerodynamic
> disadvantage to vent windows as well (less smooth), for that extra
> 0.01 mpg gain..

Also, I expect demand for them has dropped to near zero with the decline
of smoking. Just as the cigaret lighters are now "power outlets" with
no lighter and ashtrays are extra cost options, the cost of engineering
and tooling for vent windows wouldn't come close to breaking even.

Quadibloc

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Jul 18, 2021, 10:45:08 AM7/18/21

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On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 2:39:44 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
> a big problem these days is catalytic converter thefts.

Yes. We had a rash of them here in Edmonton.

Of course, catalytic converters are totally unnecessary, except in
a few areas vulnerable to smog. So this is the fault of inane
government regulation.

John Savard

Quadibloc

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Jul 18, 2021, 10:46:43 AM7/18/21

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On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 11:30:11 PM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 20:39:25 GMT
> use...@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:

> > If increasing the penalties for crimes was truly effective, then we could
> > simply assign the death penalty to every infraction and presto, crime
> > would virtually stop overnight.

> This used to be the case, at least for peasants. The result was to
> encourage murder - if you can get hanged for stealing a loaf of bread
> you'll kill anyone who catches you if you can, you might get away and if you
> don't you're no worse off.

Indeed, and, as I've noted, Blackstone's _Commentaries_ references the
issue.

John Savard

J. Clarke

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Jul 18, 2021, 11:15:29 AM7/18/21

to

They are advantageous in that they allow engines to be tuned for
performance instead of emissions. Try one of the wheezing invalids of
the late pre-catalytic-converter era to see how that works out.

Dan Espen

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Jul 18, 2021, 11:18:30 AM7/18/21

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Those few areas should just learn to live with the problem.

Not that I give any credence to your claim.

--
Dan Espen

J. Clarke

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Jul 18, 2021, 2:08:02 PM7/18/21

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On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 11:18:28 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The simplest solution to Los Angeles smog problem is to just warm the
globe enough to flood the place out.

John Levine

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Jul 18, 2021, 3:41:14 PM7/18/21

to

According to J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com>:

>>> Of course, catalytic converters are totally unnecessary, except in
>>> a few areas vulnerable to smog. So this is the fault of inane
>>> government regulation.
>>
>>Those few areas should just learn to live with the problem.
>>
>>Not that I give any credence to your claim.
>
>The simplest solution to Los Angeles smog problem is to just warm the
>globe enough to flood the place out.

It seems more likely it'll burn to the ground first.

--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

J. Clarke

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Jul 18, 2021, 4:08:47 PM7/18/21

to

On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 19:41:12 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
<jo...@taugh.com> wrote:

>According to J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com>:
>>>> Of course, catalytic converters are totally unnecessary, except in
>>>> a few areas vulnerable to smog. So this is the fault of inane
>>>> government regulation.
>>>
>>>Those few areas should just learn to live with the problem.
>>>
>>>Not that I give any credence to your claim.
>>
>>The simplest solution to Los Angeles smog problem is to just warm the
>>globe enough to flood the place out.
>
>It seems more likely it'll burn to the ground first.

Yeah, but if it's flooded out it's a lot harder to rebuild.

Dan Espen

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Jul 18, 2021, 4:43:39 PM7/18/21

to

Average elevation 285ft. That kind of sea level rise might cause other
problems. Not sure how simple it would be.

--
Dan Espen

Scott Lurndal

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Jul 18, 2021, 7:19:31 PM7/18/21

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And you wonder why people don't like you.

FYI, downtown LA is at 305 ft. ASL, with vast portions
of the basin at higher elevations, and the beach communities
(where all the wealthy folks live) closer to sea level.

Peter Flass

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Jul 18, 2021, 7:30:08 PM7/18/21

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This happened to us last year. Papers taken out of the glove box, but
nothing worth stealing.

--
Pete

Kurt Weiske

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Jul 19, 2021, 11:43:25 AM7/19/21

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To: J. Clarke
-=> J. Clarke wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

JC> The simplest solution to Los Angeles smog problem is to just warm the
JC> globe enough to flood the place out.

According to John Carpenter, the next big earthquake will separate LA from
the west coast. They could become their own country!

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org
| 1:218/700@fidonet

... Emphasize differences

Scott Lurndal

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Jul 19, 2021, 12:50:41 PM7/19/21

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"Kurt Weiske" <kurt....@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-r25-this> writes:
> To: J. Clarke
>-=> J. Clarke wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-
>
> JC> The simplest solution to Los Angeles smog problem is to just warm the
> JC> globe enough to flood the place out.
>
>According to John Carpenter, the next big earthquake will separate LA from
>the west coast. They could become their own country!
>

Of course, carpenter writes fiction.

The fault is a strike-slip fault, so LA will just move north a few
inches.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 19, 2021, 1:30:03 PM7/19/21

to

On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:50:39 GMT
sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> The fault is a strike-slip fault, so LA will just move north a few
> inches.

So all the stuff I heard years ago about it being poised to let go
completely making half of California fall off the continent was nonsense ?

Scott Lurndal

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Jul 19, 2021, 2:51:36 PM7/19/21

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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:50:39 GMT
>sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> The fault is a strike-slip fault, so LA will just move north a few
>> inches.
>
> So all the stuff I heard years ago about it being poised to let go
>completely making half of California fall off the continent was nonsense ?

Yup. LA will end up north of San Francisco sometime in the next
twenty million years. The Pacific plate is pushing up under
the North American plate (hence the coastal mountain ranges).

Bob Eager

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Jul 19, 2021, 4:13:24 PM7/19/21

to

On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 08:26:00 -0700, Kurt Weiske wrote:

> According to John Carpenter, the next big earthquake will separate LA
> from the west coast. They could become their own country!

Wouldn't that leave a dark scar?

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Kurt Weiske

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Jul 20, 2021, 10:57:40 AM7/20/21

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To: scott
-=> scott wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

sc> Of course, carpenter writes fiction.

sc> The fault is a strike-slip fault, so LA will just move north a few
sc> inches.

That'll shorten the drive to Disneyland.

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org
| 1:218/700@fidonet

... Powered By Celeron (Tualatin). Engineered for the future.

Scott Lurndal

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Jul 20, 2021, 12:17:13 PM7/20/21

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"Kurt Weiske" <kurt....@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-f2b-this> writes:
> To: scott
>-=> scott wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-
>
> sc> Of course, carpenter writes fiction.
>
> sc> The fault is a strike-slip fault, so LA will just move north a few
> sc> inches.
>
>That'll shorten the drive to Disneyland.
>
> kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
> | http://realitycheckbbs.org
> | 1:218/700@fidonet

In a few million years, it will pass Aptos, which is just
over the hill from here.

Questor

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Jul 20, 2021, 2:05:21 PM7/20/21

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On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 18:13:31 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net>
wrote:

>On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:50:39 GMT
>sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> The fault is a strike-slip fault, so LA will just move north a few
>> inches.
>
>So all the stuff I heard years ago about it being poised to let go
>completely making half of California fall off the continent was nonsense ?

They'll get the last laugh when everything East of the San Andreas Fault falls
into the Atlantic Ocean.

Actually, the current geologic theory is something of the opposite. It is
believed that California is the result of several island chains being driven
into the North American continent, the edge of which was much farther East
millions of years ago. The resulting accretion eventually became Nevada and
then California; the geologic makeup of the latter is especially varied due to
its multiple sources.

undefined Hancock-4

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Jul 20, 2021, 2:41:20 PM7/20/21

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On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 6:41:15 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> One of the few things I didn't like about our 1989 CR-V was that
> the sides were angled somewhat inwards - enough that one day when
> we encountered a sudden rainstorm and we had left the windows open,
> a lot of water had gotten in by the time we got back.

I think a lot of vehicles are like that nowadays. Mine sure is.

Maybe it has to do with maximizing streamlining to get better fuel economy.

undefined Hancock-4

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Jul 20, 2021, 2:45:06 PM7/20/21

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On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 10:06:18 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:

> Of course, perhaps one stupid person will have to steal a car, so that people can
> actually see the penalty carried out for it to have the required emotional impact
> to achieve the desired result.

Heavy deterrents don't work by themselves to discourage crime. First, thieves
need to know there's a high probability they'll be caught and sent to jail for a while.
At present, they know the odds are well in their favor.

Second, the underlying motivations must be addressed. A drug addict doesn't
think nor care, he needs to steal for his fix. Sadly, a lot of criminals today just
act on stupid impulse, not thinking.

undefined Hancock-4

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Jul 20, 2021, 2:47:35 PM7/20/21

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On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 12:30:02 PM UTC-4, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> This is likely the main reason - there was a huge push for
> efficiency starting in the 1970s.

Some say it's more fuel efficient to leave the windows closed and run the a/c.
Does it make a material difference for a motorist?

In my opinion, the vent windows were removed to save money for the mfrs.

undefined Hancock-4

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Jul 20, 2021, 2:53:00 PM7/20/21

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On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 2:40:45 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> Forget fuel economy and emissions requirements - they're trivial
> compared to the real driver for chips - infotainment systems to
> keep you distracted, backup cameras and lane drift detection and
> automatic braking to save your ass now that you're distracted...

Here are some ads for radio parts. Note Tungsol tubes designed
especially for postwar radios, and the radio for an Edsel.

Edsel Stromberg Carlson radio [right side]
https://archive.org/details/Nations-Business-1957-12/page/n11/mode/2up

Tung Sol automotive radio tube 2 pgs
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/55/Electronics-1955-11-OCR-Page-0103.pdf#search=%2212ab5%22
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/55/Electronics-1955-11-OCR-Page-0104.pdf#search=%2212ab5%22

Tung sol automotive radio tube 2 pgs
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/57/Electronics-1957-02-OCR-Page-0145.pdf#search=%22automotive%20tube%22
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/57/Electronics-1957-02-OCR-Page-0146.pdf#search=%22automotive%20tube%22

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 20, 2021, 3:30:03 PM7/20/21

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On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:47:34 -0700 (PDT)
undefined Hancock-4 <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 12:30:02 PM UTC-4, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> wrote:

> > This is likely the main reason - there was a huge push for
> > efficiency starting in the 1970s.
>
> Some say it's more fuel efficient to leave the windows closed and run the
> a/c. Does it make a material difference for a motorist?

Not enough to notice AFAICT, but the mpg numbers the manufacturer
gets to publish have a big effect on sales.

Dave Garland

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Jul 21, 2021, 6:30:30 PM7/21/21

to

In England, pickpockets (a hanging offense) used to work the crowds
who assembled to watch hangings.

Nobody thinks he's going to get caught, whether it's murderers,
price-fixers, politicians, or jaywalkers.

greymaus

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Jul 22, 2021, 6:46:03 AM7/22/21

to

I remember that at race meetings, a respectable looking person would
call out that there were pickpockets about, while the pickers themselves would watch for people
checking their wallets. The pickers themselves were notoriously vicious.

--
grey...@mail.com
Down the wrong maushole.

Dennis Boone

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Aug 17, 2021, 1:47:53 PM8/17/21

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> Durable? Relays are rated for milions of cycles. If you try
> to boot Linux on your relay computer, relays will wear out
> quite early during boot: "Dear Sir, I turned your computer on
> and it failed before printing login prompt".

Friend of mine was responsible for the campus firewall some years ago.
Campus is big, multiple gigabits each way at the time was lots, it was
not easy to get equipment that could firewall it. There was a firewall
software bug involving, iirc, one of the instant messenger protocols.
Friend arranged to capture the event happening, which was also not easy.

Several rounds with vendor support. Vendor engineer finally pipes up,
"but that's one in a million". Friend does quick arithmetic and replies
"so, about every 17 seconds on my network." Extended silence. "Oh."

Everything has a scale.

De

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Aug 17, 2021, 3:30:04 PM8/17/21

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On Tue, 17 Aug 2021 12:47:47 -0500
d...@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) wrote:

> Several rounds with vendor support. Vendor engineer finally pipes up,
> "but that's one in a million". Friend does quick arithmetic and replies
> "so, about every 17 seconds on my network." Extended silence. "Oh."
>
> Everything has a scale.

Yep it's been a long time since one in a million was rare enough to
ignore.

Juergen Nickelsen

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Mar 6, 2022, 5:06:37 PM3/6/22

to

Robin Vowels <robin....@gmail.com> writes:

> Some early computers used relays. They were typically used in card
> readers and card punches, but found use elsewhere to turn on lights.

A few years ago I saw Horst Zuse, son of Konrad Zuse, presenting a
replica of his father's relay-based Z3. The following photo is from
a talk of Konrad Zuse at the German Museum of Technology (Deutsches
Technikmuseum) in Berlin, where he presented his replica.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-n873Bf6/0/3604bcef/X5/i-n873Bf6-X5.jpg

The Z3, according to Wikipedia the first working programmable fully
automatic digital computer, was designed in 1935, and completed in
1941. It wasn't the best of times, to say the least, and as it
wasn't considered important for the war, Konrad Zuse was denied
funding for replacing the relays with electronic switches. The
original Z3 was destroyed in 1943 in an allied bombing raid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z3_(computer)

--
An Emacs reference mug is what I want. It would hold ten gallons of
coffee. -- Steve VanDevender