DEBE?
Brian Cooper
program called 'DEBE' which stood for 'Does Everything But Eat'. The
article says that this was a system utility intended to be all-encompassing.
Problem was, users kept on adding more things that they wanted to do, until
even poor DEBE couldn't do it all.
Does anyone have specific information on DEBE? Which system it ran on,
about what time-frame it occupied, what functions it actually had? I
would like to look at some specific documentation for it, but don't
have enough to go on yet.
This is for a comparison I'm making between integrating single-function
modules into a custom application vs. creating a single application that
does the integration for you. My premise is that the advent of graphical
user interfaces has led to a decline of script language integration,
resulting in some of the very large programs that are presently seen on
X-windows, Windows 3.1, and OS/2.
Comments?
Brian Cooper
b...@infonaut.com
Adam Justin Thornton
>In an old UNIX Today magazine I found a reference to an even older mainframe
>program called 'DEBE' which stood for 'Does Everything But Eat'.
Rumor has it that our friend "dd"--far from being ++(cc)--_really_ means
"Do DEBE". Examination of the command-line switches _does_ tend to imply a
non-Unix origin.
Adam
--
ad...@io.com | ad...@phoenix.princeton.edu | Viva HEGGA! | Save the choad!
"Double integral is also the shape of lovers curled asleep" : Pynchon
64,928 | TEAM OS/2 | "Ich habe einen Bierbauch!" | Linux | Fnord
You can have my PGP passphrase when you pry it from my cold, dead brain.
Eric Burch
[snip]
|> Does anyone have specific information on DEBE? Which system it ran on,
|> about what time-frame it occupied, what functions it actually had? I
|> would like to look at some specific documentation for it, but don't
|> have enough to go on yet.
Ran on IBM mainframes. Mostly used with MVS, but I last used it about 10
years ago on VM. Couldn't be beat for what it did.
[old-timer folklore warning--"you've got it easy; when I started..."]
Back in the Olde Days, information was stored on "Count Key Data" disks--you
could have a different block length for each physical block of data on the
disk track. (Compare with, say, MS-DOS, where each disk block is 256 bytes
long, or most UNIXes, where block size is always 512 bytes). Back then,
every patch of oxide was valuable, so you'd physically format the disk data
for optimal retrieval, and be careful not to overflow the disk buffer on the
32K of main memory your program and data areas would have to fit in.
You also had problems like: you'd have to know the maximum size your file
could become, because OS would allocate that many contiguous disk tracks
(and cylinders) for that particular file. (Well, you could start small and
add "secondary allocations", but you were limited to no more than 16
"extents").
But to copy files around, or move them to and from tape, was a big challenge
since you had to preserve the physical format. And you usually had to
submit a card deck to perform the job. And though the OS knew on disk where
the file was located (usually), it generally didn't know the physical format
of the data. So if you didn't maintain the program that worked with that
particular file, you'd have lots of trouble just moving it from one place to
another. And recall that all the OS default actions were defined in 1964.
DEBE could analyze the data stored on a disk (or tape), and deduce the
format. It also had options to copy the file around various disks and
tapes. It could even move data from, say, a 3330 disk to a 3340 disk, which
had different track sizes (which meant that you sometimes had to rearrange
the physical records). Or you could print a report on the sizes of the
records, or a hex dump of the records. Or you could easily move data from
one tape to another. And you could use it (gasp) interactively on a
terminal. It did everything but ate, and was rumored to be named after the
author's daughter.
Today, in the Modern Era (post-1969), you have commands like "copy" or "od"
or "tar" that do the same thing. But back then, DEBE was it.
(The scary thing is, on MVS, much of this is *still* true. I used DEBE to
copy data from 3420 (9-inch) tapes to 3480 (cartridge) tapes.)
--
Eric Burch -- Loral Federal Systems -- Gaithersburg, MD
er...@lfs.loral.com usual disclaimers apply
imagine a " :-) " after each period above
Paul Rogers
[v]program called 'DEBE' which stood for 'Does Everything But Eat'. The
[v]article says that this was a system utility intended to be all-encompassin
BC[v]Does anyone have specific information on DEBE? Which system it ran on,
[v]about what time-frame it occupied, what functions it actually had? I
[v]would like to look at some specific documentation for it, but don't
[v]have enough to go on yet.
DEBE was a DOS/360 program. It would have run on S/360 Models 25 to maybe
50. Timeframe would have been middle 60's to say mid 70's. I think there
MAY have been a port to OS/360, but I don't think it ever became as
popular as it was in DOS. It was on the SHARE tapes, you might contact
SHARE or COMMON, the IBM mainframe user's groups.
---
* SLMR 2.1a * In the eyes of cats, all things belong to cats.
Alan Bowler
>
>DEBE was a DOS/360 program. It would have run on S/360 Models 25 to maybe
>50. Timeframe would have been middle 60's to say mid 70's. I think there
>MAY have been a port to OS/360, but I don't think it ever became as
>popular as it was in DOS. It was on the SHARE tapes, you might contact
>SHARE or COMMON, the IBM mainframe user's groups.
AS I recall the port was in the the other direction which is why the
DOS version was generally referred toi as DOS-DEBE. It was certainly
heavy used on OS-360. Those of you who grew up with Unix would not
believe how complex OS/360 and DOS/360 could make simple operations
like copying or dumping a file. DEBE reduced this type of operation to
something no more than 10 times as hard as using DD on a Unix system.
Torsten Vieth
Joe Morris <jcmo...@mwunix.mitre.org> wrote:
> In a recent article atbo...@thinkage.on.ca (Alan Bowler) writes:
> >In a recent article paul....@nwcs.org (Paul Rogers) writes:
>
> >>DEBE was a DOS/360 program. It would have run on S/360 Models 25 to maybe
>
> My recollection (which as usual is suspect) is that DEBE started life
> as a stand-alone utility, not as a task under either OS/360 or DOS.
>
I used DEBE about 20 years ago.
But - DEBE had a follow-on product named DITTO, to be used with VS/1 and
MVS operating systems. It's still in use (under MVS/ESA) for some tape
recovery operations (tape block patching or skipping etc.) or for browsing
tapes with unknown file structures.
Bye
Erhard Vieth
------------------------------------------
Erhard Vieth, Ratingen, Germany - evi...@ibm.net
- 7100...@compuserve.com
also reachable at
Torsten Vieth - vie...@gismo.rhein-ruhr.de
Charlie Gibbs
VIE...@gismo.rhein-ruhr.de (Torsten Vieth) writes:
>But - DEBE had a follow-on product named DITTO, to be used with VS/1 and
>MVS operating systems. It's still in use (under MVS/ESA) for some tape
>recovery operations (tape block patching or skipping etc.) or for browsing
>tapes with unknown file structures.
I was waiting for someone to mention DITTO. Someone ported it to
the UNIVAC 9400. I got my hands on the source, and turned it into
something semi-civilized by making the command names more consistent,
and allowed multiple parameters to be entered on a single line
instead of having to play "Twenty Questions" with the system.
I even got it handling sequential disk files.
When the 90/30 and OS/3 came out, DITTO resurfaced in the System
Utility (SU), original warty commands and all. I never did get
around to porting my 9400 version. But that's probably because
I was too busy writing my own assembler, since I was so grossed
out by theirs, which they ripped off from the DOS/360 one. I
couldn't stand the fact that theirs wasn't half a good as the
one I had already written for the 9300.
It sometimes makes you wonder what went on in those huge software
departments the big vendors had...
Charli...@mindlink.bc.ca
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.
olia...@gmail.com
Michelle, who finds dead threads on the internet.
Dan Espen
> My dad wrote it at IBM in 1965 for the system S360. He's currently
> describing it to me and it's a certain kind of awesome.
That's no small accomplishment.
> Michelle, who finds dead threads on the internet.
DEBE may be gone, but not forgotten.
This page puts DEBE in 1963:
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/ibm-360-30.html
Can't see how that's possible.
--
Dan Espen
Bob Martin
I was on an OS/360 internals course, using release 4/5
lgdef...@gmail.com
It was not a program that accommodated adding functions.
It was developed by me at the Chicago Datacenter 1964-65 timeframe. I understood programming and was very good at debugging our customers' programs as it was part of my job. Any programmer looking at the original DEBE source code would agree that I was not a programmer.
When the first 360's came to the datacenter the only utility programs to help the developers were the Card and Tape Utilities, an IBM Type I program. They had a lot of flexibility but required punching up some control cards to function. And, the control cards had to be tested to make sure they did job.
In the testing environment at the Datacenter and in the customers' home shops there was a need for a set of simple utilities. DEBE provided those utilities.
It was extremely easy to use when compared to the alternatives at that time.
After IPLing DEBE from tape the console would type ENT PROGID for the user to enter a simple 2-3 letter code. The codes were simple to remember. CC was card to card, TP was tape to printer, TT was tape to tape, TD (as I remember) was a hex print of tape's contents.
The commands were followed by requests for tape addresses and format.
There was no formatting of input or output.
Crude? Yes! Useful? In a great majority of IBM 360 installations you would likely see a DEBE tape hung on tape drive or lying about near by for quick access.
After the Tape DEBE someone came along and put together a DOSDEBE and someone else came up with an OS DEBE. I am very sure they didn't look at my code. I never used one of these but I'm assuming they had a lot of function and probably some formatting enhancements.
These programs were written by individuals, not development teams. Including DEBE in their names I take as a compliment.
Lowell DeFrance
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
similar ... was Lincoln Labs LLMPS ... was share contribution library (I
think I may still have hardcopy of the share document, and may even scan
it someday). it had its own multitasking monitor and folklore is that
Univ. of Mich. started out with LLMPS for the core of MTS.
1401 had a simple "MPIO" that did card->tape and tape->printer/punch and
the univ. used the 1401 as unit record front-end to its 709. They univ
was "sold" a 360/67 to replace 1401/709 combo and during the transition
the 1401 was replaced with 360/30. They could have continued to run the
1401 MPIO in hardware emulation mode on 360/30 ... but they gave me the
job of doing 360 port .... and I got to design my own monitor,
dispatcher, device drivers, interrupt handlers, dynamic storage
management, etc ... could even concurrently do card->tape and
tape->printer/punch.
other trivia ... Hendricks had done RSCS/VNET ... using for the internal
network as well as for the corporate sponsored univ. bitnet/earn. he
had done his own simplified multitasking monitor for managing all the
line drivers. Talking to him many years later (after having left IBM),
he said he was doing job that involved some real-time systems. He said
he noticed something familiar in the major industry real-time system
... and double checked ... the dispatcher was essentially a
statement-for-statement conversion of his VNET dispatcher form 360
assembler to C ... even to retaining the same comments.
past posts mentioning LLMPS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#15 unit record & other controllers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#23 MTS & LLMPS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#25 MTS & LLMPS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#26 MTS & LLMPS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#15 S/360 operating systems geneaology
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#89 Ux's good points.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#0 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#55 TSS/360
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#45 Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#89 TSS/360
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#54 SHARE MVT Project anniversary
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#64 PLX
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#41 SLAC 370 Pascal compiler found
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004d.html#31 someone looking to donate IBM magazines and stuff
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004l.html#16 Xah Lee's Unixism
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004o.html#20 RISCs too close to hardware?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005g.html#56 Software for IBM 360/30
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006k.html#41 PDP-1
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006m.html#42 Why Didn't The Cent Sign or the Exclamation Mark Print?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007t.html#54 new 40+ yr old, disruptive technology
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007u.html#18 Folklore references to CP67 at Lincoln Labs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007u.html#23 T3 Sues IBM To Break its Mainframe Monopoly
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007u.html#85 IBM Floating-point myths
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009p.html#76 The 50th Anniversary of the Legendary IBM 1401
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#25 VM370 40yr anniv, CP67 44yr anniv
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014j.html#50 curly brace languages source code style quides
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Dan Espen
--
Dan Espen
Ric Fink
> My dad wrote it at IBM in 1965 for the system S360. He's currently describing it to me and it's a certain kind of awesome.
>
> Michelle, who finds dead threads on the internet.
It save my butt a thousand times in my days with IBM s?360's and s/370's.
-Ric
gareth evans
There's some discussion about it's origin upon googling
but nothing to satisfy one's curiosity!
Peter Flass
--
Pete
Peter Flass
DOS, but I can’t recall which was which. They were both invaluable
programs for things like media conversion - tape to print, etc., but, as I
recall, they did a lot more. Every shop probably had a copy.
--
Pete
gareth evans
Charlie Gibbs
DEBE is a utility you'd run from a mainframe console to
do all sorts of handy things like copy files, position
tapes, etc. It stands for "Does Everything But Eat".
I got hold of source code for a similar utility that
someone wrote for the Univac 9400, and made some enhancements.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> DEBE was a “do everything” program, like DITTO. one was for OS and one for
> DOS, but I can’t recall which was which. They were both invaluable
> programs for things like media conversion - tape to print, etc., but, as I
> recall, they did a lot more. Every shop probably had a copy.
multi-task monitor that could concurrently do a number of different
things ... was in the SHARE contribution library ... along with
documentation (originally done for 360/40)
folklore is that Univ of Michigan started out scaffolded MTS off of
LLMPS (i.e. michigan terminal system, virtual memory implementation
originally done for 360/67).
8. Did anything of LLMPS remain as part of UMMPS?
http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/anecdotes-comments-observations/8didanythingofllmpsremainaspartofummps
8.1: Some information about LLMPS
http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/anecdotes-comments-observations/8-1someinformationaboutllmps
some old archived posts mentionin LLMPS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#23 MTS & LLMPS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#25 MTS & LLMPS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#26 MTS & LLMPS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#15 S/360 operating systems geneaology
Peter Flass
> On 2021-02-01, gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry to be obtuse, but what is DEBE and what does it do?
>>
>> There's some discussion about it's origin upon googling
>> but nothing to satisfy one's curiosity!
>
> This is one of the most a.f.c-worthy threads in a while.
> DEBE is a utility you'd run from a mainframe console to
> do all sorts of handy things like copy files, position
> tapes, etc. It stands for "Does Everything But Eat".
>
> I got hold of source code for a similar utility that
> someone wrote for the Univac 9400, and made some enhancements.
>
they were both Type-3 (contributed) programs, and there doesn’t seem to be
doc for most Type-3s. Does anyone have the source?
--
Pete
Thomas Koenig
> It would be nice to have the documentation for DEBE (and Ditto) I think
> they were both Type-3 (contributed) programs, and there doesn’t seem to be
> doc for most Type-3s. Does anyone have the source?
entry for it (three, actually).
DEBE - UTILITIES PROGRAM
Author: Mr. L. G. DeFrance
DIRECT TECHNICAL INQUIRIES TO:
Mr. L. G. DeFrance
IBM Corporation
109 S. Wacker Drive
Chicago, Illinois 60606
...
PROGRAMMING SYSTEMS - Written as a single module in IBM
BPS Asserbler language (8K tape). Up to 10,000 byte record
lengths are accepted by the tape utilities excepting the
card to tape and tape to card which are limited to 80 byte
records. Tape to tape, tape to printer (Hexadecimal or
BCD), card to card, card to printer, write tapemark, and
four tape positioning routines are the remaining functions.
[...]
It also says
DOCUMENTATION - None.
There are also two other systems for TOS/DOS and DOS (only).
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> 8. Did anything of LLMPS remain as part of UMMPS?
> http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/anecdotes-comments-observations/8didanythingofllmpsremainaspartofummps
> 8.1: Some information about LLMPS
> http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/anecdotes-comments-observations/8-1someinformationaboutllmps
and & mts archive
http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/documentation
topic drift warning ...
lots of installations were sold 360/67 for tss/360 ... but got early
360s to work with pending availability of 360/67 with virtual memory.
... however tss/360 never really came to production fruition and lots of
360/67s ran as 360/65 with os/360 ... but some places like UofM and
Stanford wrote their own virtual memory operating systems for 360/67.
Cambridge Science Center got a 360/40 and added hardware modifications
to support virtual memory and developed (virtual machine) CP40/CMS
... when 360/67 became available, CP40/CMS morphs into CP67/CMS
(precursor to VM370/CMS).
MIT Lincoln Labs got a duplex (two processor) 360/67 for tss/360 ... but
became the 1st place (after cambridge) to install cp67.
I had taken two semester hr intro to computers/fortran, the univ was
running 709 tape->tape with 1401 front end for unit record. At the end
of the semester the got a 360/30 replacing the 1401 as part of
transition to 360/67 replacing the 709/1401 and I got a job to
reimplement 1401 MPIO (somewhat like DEBE) in 360 assembler (although
360/30 could directly run MPIO in 1401 emulation) ... I got to design
and implement my own monitor, device drivers, interrupt handlers, error
recovery, storage management etc. ... eventually 2000 cards with
assembler option for generating stand-alone (w/BPS loader) or under
os/360 (DCB macros). Trivia: stand alone version took 30mins to
assemble, os/360 version took an hr with each DCB macros taking 5mins
each.
I was then hired fulltime to be responsible of OS/360 and the 360/67
spent all its time as 360/65 ... univ. shutdown datacenter from 8am sat
to 8am mon & I had the place dedicated to myself for 48hrs
straight. Last week Jan1968, three people came out from cambridge to
install cp67 (1st place after lincoln labs) ... but it was mostly
restricted to my playing with it on weekends.
Charlie Gibbs
of my version (based on a version of Ditto, I believe). It would
probably be faster for me to type it in than look for a 9-track
tape and a drive to read it on...
Peter Flass
> On 2021-02-02, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-02-01, gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sorry to be obtuse, but what is DEBE and what does it do?
>>>>
>>>> There's some discussion about it's origin upon googling
>>>> but nothing to satisfy one's curiosity!
>>>
>>> This is one of the most a.f.c-worthy threads in a while.
>>> DEBE is a utility you'd run from a mainframe console to
>>> do all sorts of handy things like copy files, position
>>> tapes, etc. It stands for "Does Everything But Eat".
>>>
>>> I got hold of source code for a similar utility that
>>> someone wrote for the Univac 9400, and made some enhancements.
>>
>> It would be nice to have the documentation for DEBE (and Ditto) I think
>> they were both Type-3 (contributed) programs, and there doesn’t seem to
>> be doc for most Type-3s. Does anyone have the source?
>
> Being the pack rat that I am, I probably have an assembly listing
> of my version (based on a version of Ditto, I believe). It would
> probably be faster for me to type it in than look for a 9-track
> tape and a drive to read it on...
>
--
Pete
Lowell DeFrance
Lowell DeFrance, vry retired in Woodstock, IL
Richard Fink
My 2 copies were, I believe, from your original work. They surely did have to be IPL'd as a standalone utility. I spent many years on s/360's in the USA and /370's in the USA and Kenya. Your DEBE tape was always with me and never failed me. How amazing that at this late year in my life I have the opportunity to acknowledge you! Sir, from a million years ago... Thank You!
Richard Fink
Charlie Gibbs
> On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 12:48:45 PM UTC-7, Lowell DeFrance wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 5:09:55 PM UTC-6, Ric Fink wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 8:50:52 AM UTC-7, olia...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My dad wrote it at IBM in 1965 for the system S360. He's currently
>>>> describing it to me and it's a certain kind of awesome.
>>>>
>>>> Michelle, who finds dead threads on the internet.
>>>
>>> Michele, is your dad still with us? I have an original copy of debe
>>> on a small "2400 ft" tape real. Might he be interested in it?
>>>
>>> It save my butt a thousand times in my days with IBM s?360's and
>>> s/370's.
>>
>> you and my daughter today. Hope you are well too.
>> Lowell DeFrance, vry retired in Woodstock, IL
>
> Hi Lowell, I just saw this, after writing to you moments ago. Yup,
> I'm 80 years old! I hope I'm understanding that you are well too.
> Very retired too, but loved the years we are talking about here.
> We were working during a very innovative and busy time, for sure.
> I'm in San Francisco CA. During those days, even though COBOL was
> big in business applications, my head was deep in the depths of
> Assembler, writing OS extensions, mods, and fixes to the way we
> wanted things to run at the OS level.
and ported it to the Univac 9400.
> Here is something interesting. I just came upon original IBM Manuals
> from those old mainframes. They are too beautiful to my heart to
> 'recycle', but neither UC Berkeley or Stanford Computer Departments
> want them. What to do?!?
a lot of old Univac manuals. There's a ton of stuff out there,
all lovingly preserved, and you might be able to make a valuable
contribution.
http://bitsavers.org/
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | The Internet is like a big city:
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | it has plenty of bright lights and
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | excitement, but also dark alleys
/ \ if you read it the right way. | down which the unwary get mugged.
Scott Lurndal
>On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 12:48:45=E2=80=AFPM UTC-7, Lowell DeFrance w=
>rote:
>> On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 5:09:55 PM UTC-6, Ric Fink wrote:=20
>> > On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 8:50:52 AM UTC-7, olia...@gmail.com wro=
>te:=20
>> > > My dad wrote it at IBM in 1965 for the system S360. He's currently de=
>scribing it to me and it's a certain kind of awesome.=20
>> > >=20
>> > > Michelle, who finds dead threads on the internet.=20
>> > Michele, is your dad still with us? I have an original copy of debe on =
>a small "2400 ft" tape real. Might he be interested in it?=20
>> >=20
>> > It save my butt a thousand times in my days with IBM s?360's and s/370'=
>s.=20
>> >=20
>> > -Ric
>> Hi Ric, I'm still around at 86. Just noticed this exchange between you an=
>d my daughter today. Hope you are well too.=20
>
>ears old! I hope I'm understanding that you are well too. Very retired too,=
> but loved the years we are talking about here. We were working during a ve=
>ry innovative and busy time, for sure. I'm in San Francisco CA. During thos=
>e days, even though COBOL was big in business applications, my head was dee=
>p in the depths of Assembler, writing OS extensions, mods, and fixes to the=
> way we wanted things to run at the OS level. Here is something interesting=
>. I just came upon original IBM Manuals from those old mainframes. They are=
> too beautiful to my heart to 'recycle', but neither UC Berkeley or Stanfor=
send them to Al Kossow at the CHM.