Re: Who Knew ?

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Andreas Kohlbach

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Nov 1, 2021, 1:52:18 PM11/1/21
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On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 04:44:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> On 31/10/2021 19:47, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Oct 2021 13:35:46 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> More than that, operating in small model mode, you could pretty much
>>> run 8080 code through a translator and port CP/M programs to it
>>> easily.
>>> The business market had been taken by the 8080/z80 and CP/M while the
>>> hobbysist were all using 6502s.
>> Hmm. If you consider the "bedroom coders" in the UK hobbyists - they
>> mainly coded on the ZX Spectrum (may some on the ZX81/80 before), which
>> has a Z80 CPU.
>
> Most UK 'home' computers were *not* based on a z80.
>
> Sinclair came very late to the party.
>
> First micro I saw was altair 8800 - s100 bus. 8080. That was serious
> . 1974 or thereabouts

"Home computers" are described from any micro as the Altair 8800
(designed 1974 but showed up in January 1975 to start the craze). True,
that one had a 8080.

> The Apple 1 was around 1973, 6502 again

It was released 1976. The 6502 itself is from 1975. About 200 Apple 1
were produced, making it a collector's item today. Only with the Apple 2
a year later they produced large quantities.

> Then the Apple II, PET and trash 80 came a couple of years later.

1977.

> Only the trash 80 was z80. But it could be used in business.

I think the TRS-80 can also be considered a non-business computer.

> At that time the split was clear. CP/M was for business and ran on
> Z80s/8080s.

UK "Home micros" with a Z80 (ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPCs, ...) where not
shipped with CP/M, although you could probably run it. Did this (in an
emulator) with the CPC <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qStVxf0XlE0>.

> 6502s were for hobbyists writing in basic and assembler.

The UK market (and that's what we're talking here about) saw more Z80
based ZX (Spectrum, 81/80) machines that Commodore 64s.

But the UK saw also a big number of Acorn computers, which ran a
6502. Those, like Apple 2s, were rather expensive that they were mainly
used in the education sector.

If you check some links of
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_computers> it can be
noticed that most of the used a Z80.

> As for 6809s - great chip. No one really used it.

The TRS color computer and "clone" Dragon 32/64 did. Latter also sold in
numbers.

[...]

>> OK, there were many using a C64 (6510, similar to a 6502) and the
>> Oric,
>> which sold reasonably well in the UK and France back in the day.
>> But considering me as hobbyist back in the 1980s I indeed started to
>> code
>> in assembler on a 6502 (C64).
>>
>
> Exactly. Wasn't Apple II a 6502 as well?

Yes, but at least in Europe to expensive for the common user. Outside the
UK most got a C64, while in the UK Spectrums ruled the market.

F'up2 alt.folklore.computers
--
Andreas

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Nov 1, 2021, 6:00:02 PM11/1/21
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On Mon, 01 Nov 2021 13:52:08 -0400
Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> I think the TRS-80 can also be considered a non-business computer.

I was working in the Cambridge Tandy store when the TRS-80 came out
in the UK. We sold quite a number of them to small businesses, one customer
reported that it had reduced an essential monthly task from three days of
painstaking calculations to do a scratch job to three hours to do it
properly.

Later on we carried Apple ][s, PETs, North Star Horizons and all
sorts of other machines but when the TRS-80 first appeared it put computers
in places that would never have dreamed of them (that customer above was a
cattle farmer - he was the first business customer which tends to stick
in the mind).

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Quadibloc

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Nov 1, 2021, 8:38:02 PM11/1/21
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On Monday, November 1, 2021 at 11:52:18 AM UTC-6, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 04:44:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> > Only the trash 80 was z80. But it could be used in business.
>
> I think the TRS-80 can also be considered a non-business computer.

Indeed. The Model II and the Model 16 were designed for businesses, and
they were actually fairly decent computers for that purpose.

John Savard

Joy Beeson

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Nov 2, 2021, 12:21:48 AM11/2/21
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On Mon, 01 Nov 2021 13:52:08 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
<a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> I think the TRS-80 can also be considered a non-business computer.

I bought mine to replace a worn-out typewriter.

I took to Scripsit like a duck to water.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

1p166

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Nov 2, 2021, 12:48:49 AM11/2/21
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I remember the ads in magazines and such ... the first
"Small-Office PCs". The bits were fitted into something
the size of a large desk. S-100 mostly, 8" floppy (or
TWO if you were a successful small biz), tape if you
were a cheap-ass, 8008 chip.

The Altair was a "desktop" by comparison, and had the
new and improved 8080 chip. However they were aimed
straight at the student/hobby market and I don't
think anybody ever tried to integrate them in to
a slick "Small Business System". They WERE a sort
of "milestone" though because regular Joes could
actually kind of AFFORD one - the first real
"democratization" of PCs. Apple and Commodore
came along shortly after and blew the Altairs
out of the water.

The 6502 was designed by a bunch of defectors from
the Motorola 6800 series. That caused some legal
issues, they were originally "too like" the 6800s.
More efficient however - and cheaper to make. Soon
edged Motorola pretty much out of the 8-bit PC
market (except for the CoCo).

(Not sure if OS-9 was ever ported to the 6502, but
you COULD run it on a CoCo). OS-9 was quite UNIX-ish
but a lot more space/cycle efficient. It's still
sold - and ain't exactly cheap - mostly for use
in embedded systems, esp those that need to be
close to Real Time)

The TRS-80s were not bad computers at all. They were
one of the next steps for Small Business computers.
The CP/M was a big advantage and the units were
nicely packaged. They were fairly snappy for 8-bitters
too, not "trash" at all. And yes they were fine as
home/hobby/development PCs. Always wanted one, but
could never quite afford one. The final version had
a 68000 co-processor board in there.

The PETs were of the same paradigm as the TRS-80s,
a monitor+keyboard+mainboard in one nicely-styled
box. The first had a CRAP "chicklet" keyboard but
the follow-ons were much nicer. Could never figure
out why they built a nice box with a 99-cent keyboard.
PETs, like the TRS, were aimed at the "Small Business"
market. They offered similar performance, but except
for some one-off efforts I don't think there was a
CP/M-6502. Some dual-board models though from short-
lived companies.

I knew a guy, one of those IQ-200 on-the-edge
people, who had a computer shop, but mostly
made money writing clones of popular computer
games - in MACHINE CODE, BINARY - on a PET.
Said it "gave him a buzz" to do it that way :-)
He wasn't lying, I watched him doing it. He'd
then burn it into ROM cartridges for VIC-20s
and C-64s.

TI-99/4A ... well ... TI ruined it for themselves
by trying Apples thing of making it super-hard for
3rd party developers. Alas the actual 9900 16-bit
chip was BARELY used, 95% of the work was done by
the GPU. The 9900s were kinda strange too - a funky
hardware-based multi-user/multi-tasking setup
which stored register sets and stuff in system
memory because, at the time, it was actually
faster/cheaper than on-chip. "BLWP" - Branch
And Load WorkSpace Pointer" ... I remember
that instruction. It was never meant as a
"small business" PC, and neither were the
VICs/C64s/Ataris ... more "Game Systems Plus".
A few C64s were put to "business" USE however -
for a very long time there was a "local govt
channel" and once in a while it'd crash and
you'd see the C64 ROM BASIC error message :-)

The Brits were also players. The "BBC" computers were
pretty good - and sometimes ahead of US pop-culture
units.

But the IBM-PC murdered them all. Wasn't THAT great
of a PC, but it had the weight of IBM behind it.
Apple managed to carve out its own niche, but the
others went under eventually ... though Commodore
made a fair try with the Amigas. Those STILL have
fans and some Linux utilities STILL support the
Amiga disk formats plus there are other Amiga
support programs too. I bought the original, but
there were SO many "Guru Meditation" messages
that I dumped the thing and bought a Sanyo-550
PC (semi)-Clone.

The native 550 graphics were superior,
but I badly needed full IBM-CGA compatibility and
you had to buy a separate board and do some tricky
jumper-wire work to get that. Still a great unit,
and about a third the price of IBM. I might still
have it somewhere, under the pile-o-junk.

Anyway, the IBM clones now dominate. A few years
back DeGaulle airport, Paris, was paralyzed because
it's system for dealing with taxi-way routing went
down. Turned out it was running on a PC clone and
WINDOWS 3.11 for DECADES. Hey, if it ain't broke ...

Always wanted a SAGE computer. Looked like a PC box
but it had 68000 series chips and some kind of
XENIX-related and similar operating systems. Alas,
a small maker, expensive, low-volume, pretty quickly
went under. Too bad. Those WERE meant as "small
business" boxes. Think you can still buy them
on E-Bay, but early BAD experiences with E-Bay
and Musks PayPal put me off of them. However I
have seen working MicroVAX systems for sale there,
they were VERY good systems and the OS was well
ahead of its time, meant for medium-scale orgs
and businesses. Still have the VMS manual, four
inches thick, thin paper, smallish type. ONE day ...

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Nov 2, 2021, 1:30:03 AM11/2/21
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On Mon, 01 Nov 2021 19:27:59 -0400
Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> Thanks for the info, my assumption was probably wrong.

Possibly a simple matter of time - things changed very fast through
the late 70s and mid 80s.

> Cannot remember I have seen one in the stores back in the day. OK, was a
> small German town with only three stores carrying computers. They had
> Commodore 64 as of 1983, Atari 8-bit and later ZX Spectrums ad

It was 1978 when we were selling TRS-80s into businesses, by 83
there were a lot of better choices for business use and the TRS-80 line
mostly went to home use - there were some business models but they didn't
do well against CP/M, MP/M and soon after the IBM PC clones destroyed all
the diversity.

Charlie Gibbs

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Nov 2, 2021, 2:17:13 AM11/2/21
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On 2021-11-02, 1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:

> But the IBM-PC murdered them all. Wasn't THAT great
> of a PC, but it had the weight of IBM behind it.

:-(

> Apple managed to carve out its own niche, but the
> others went under eventually ... though Commodore
> made a fair try with the Amigas.

Commodore techs made a fair try. Commodore management
ran the company into the ground. At one point the
president and CEO (Irving Gould and Mehdi Ali) were
pulling down bigger salaries than the heads of IBM -
while the techies and marketing staff starved.
Shareholder meetings were held in the Bahamas to
discourage those pesky shareholders from attending.

> Those STILL have
> fans and some Linux utilities STILL support the
> Amiga disk formats plus there are other Amiga
> support programs too. I bought the original, but
> there were SO many "Guru Meditation" messages
> that I dumped the thing and bought a Sanyo-550
> PC (semi)-Clone.

The Amiga's biggest shortcoming was its lack of memory
protection. If you stayed away from buggy software
that stomped on random memory locations, you could
avoid almost all Guru Meditations.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin

Niklas Karlsson

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Nov 2, 2021, 6:16:43 AM11/2/21
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On 2021-11-02, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2021-11-02, 1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:
>> Those STILL have
>> fans and some Linux utilities STILL support the
>> Amiga disk formats plus there are other Amiga
>> support programs too. I bought the original, but
>> there were SO many "Guru Meditation" messages
>> that I dumped the thing and bought a Sanyo-550
>> PC (semi)-Clone.
>
> The Amiga's biggest shortcoming was its lack of memory
> protection. If you stayed away from buggy software
> that stomped on random memory locations, you could
> avoid almost all Guru Meditations.

Yeah, I didn't have very many. They happened, but not that often.

Niklas
--
"But when your parts are 4 and 6" big, and massively oversized for the job, and
designed for servicing by chimpanzees (which is not to say the people that do,
are), it's a lot easier to get things in a vague approximation of right."
-- Jasper Janssen

1p166

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Nov 3, 2021, 12:28:05 AM11/3/21
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up
On 11/2/21 2:17 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2021-11-02, 1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:
>
>> But the IBM-PC murdered them all. Wasn't THAT great
>> of a PC, but it had the weight of IBM behind it.
>
> :-(
>
>> Apple managed to carve out its own niche, but the
>> others went under eventually ... though Commodore
>> made a fair try with the Amigas.
>
> Commodore techs made a fair try. Commodore management
> ran the company into the ground.

Rats. Sinking ship. What did you expect ? Pretend
make an visible effort, to keep the stock prices up
while cashing-in to the max.

Commodore was OVER. It had its day in the sun but
IBM (& clones) and Apple were IT - the future.
Whatever Amiga could do, Mac could do, or soon
do, better - and had a bigger customer base.

The Market at the time was consolidating. Only
two main players. All the fringe players were
OUT. Take the money and RUN.

Sorry, but Amiga was NOT a competitor. It had
its good features, but others, better capitalized,
soon copied and exceeded them.

That's the way it goes.

Whatever the Next Big Thing is, there will initially
be a bunch of players. Again, probably TWO will become
IT and all the others will wither away.

And even that duality will be something of a lie ...
the BIG people will have stock/influence in BOTH
"sides". Humans LOVE "duality", choices or false
choices. PLAY that psychology for profit.

Cynical ? Check it out. REAL.

MS is heavily invested in Apple and vice-versa.
Check it out, you can confirm that. The "sides"
are all for show, a way of goading consumers
and pushing out competitors. Swear your loyalty
to Winders or Mac ! So EXCITING to choose a side.

The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
understood the utility of cultivating those
fake "sides".

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Nov 3, 2021, 3:30:02 AM11/3/21
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On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:27:54 -0400
1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:

> The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
> ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
> understood the utility of cultivating those
> fake "sides".

Sadly this and all above it is all too true - the lessons of
Machiavelli and Sun Tzu are well understood by the major players and have
been polished for centuries into a smooth art. In a similar vein I fairly
recently re-read Orwell's 1984 and found it shockingly simplistic and naive,
that was a sobering discovery.

The indoctrination for it starts in the earliest school with "What's
your favourite colour" and gets strengthened outside the classroom with
"Who do you support".

I remain thankful that Hermann Göring's astute observation on the
ease of raising war fever is not widely utilised today - I remain slightly
suspicious about the Falkland's War being a field test of the principle, it
was certainly a good demonstration if not.

Charlie Gibbs

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Nov 3, 2021, 1:18:43 PM11/3/21
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On 2021-11-03, 1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:

> MS is heavily invested in Apple and vice-versa.
> Check it out, you can confirm that.

Back in the '80s, M$ made Apple an outright gift of
$150 million. Apple was the only thing keeping the
Department of Justice off Microsoft's back, so Apple
had to be kept alive, but weak.

Unfortunately for M$, Apple didn't remain weak.

> The "sides"
> are all for show, a way of goading consumers
> and pushing out competitors. Swear your loyalty
> to Winders or Mac ! So EXCITING to choose a side.
>
> The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
> ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
> understood the utility of cultivating those
> fake "sides".

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

Charlie Gibbs

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Nov 3, 2021, 1:18:44 PM11/3/21
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On 2021-11-03, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:27:54 -0400
> 1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:
>
>> The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
>> ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
>> understood the utility of cultivating those
>> fake "sides".
>
> Sadly this and all above it is all too true - the lessons of
> Machiavelli and Sun Tzu are well understood by the major players and have
> been polished for centuries into a smooth art. In a similar vein I fairly
> recently re-read Orwell's 1984 and found it shockingly simplistic and naive,
> that was a sobering discovery.

It was a bit heavy-handed, perhaps, but still relevant in many ways.
The telescreens have not only been deployed, but improved beyond
what was in the book. At least Orwell's telescreens stayed on the
wall instead of following you around the house.

My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
_Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
replaced by social media.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs |
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | "Alexa, define 'bugging'."
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus |

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Nov 3, 2021, 4:00:02 PM11/3/21
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On Wed, 03 Nov 2021 17:18:41 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2021-11-03, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:27:54 -0400
> > 1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:
> >
> >> The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
> >> ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
> >> understood the utility of cultivating those
> >> fake "sides".
> >
> > Sadly this and all above it is all too true - the lessons of
> > Machiavelli and Sun Tzu are well understood by the major players and
> > have been polished for centuries into a smooth art. In a similar vein I
> > fairly recently re-read Orwell's 1984 and found it shockingly
> > simplistic and naive, that was a sobering discovery.
>
> It was a bit heavy-handed, perhaps, but still relevant in many ways.
> The telescreens have not only been deployed, but improved beyond
> what was in the book. At least Orwell's telescreens stayed on the
> wall instead of following you around the house.

What Orwell missed completely was that all of this has not needed
to be imposed by an authoritative Big Brother with lethal enforcement but
rather has been dangled and freely chosen like Coffiest.

Orwell made it look like it should be easy to avoid developing a
society like that, just keep hold of the essential freedoms and your good -
right ? Wrong, as it turns out it's far easier to keep people in line with
carrots than sticks, and carrots leave far more room for subtlety just as
there are far more subtle ways of keeping people scared than an endless
rotating war. Like I say simplistic and naive.

> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
> replaced by social media.

For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and reinvent
slavery.

Charlie Gibbs

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Nov 3, 2021, 5:34:39 PM11/3/21
to
On 2021-11-03, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 03 Nov 2021 17:18:41 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-11-03, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:27:54 -0400
>>> 1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
>>>> ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
>>>> understood the utility of cultivating those
>>>> fake "sides".
>>>
>>> Sadly this and all above it is all too true - the lessons of
>>> Machiavelli and Sun Tzu are well understood by the major players and
>>> have been polished for centuries into a smooth art. In a similar vein I
>>> fairly recently re-read Orwell's 1984 and found it shockingly
>>> simplistic and naive, that was a sobering discovery.
>>
>> It was a bit heavy-handed, perhaps, but still relevant in many ways.
>> The telescreens have not only been deployed, but improved beyond
>> what was in the book. At least Orwell's telescreens stayed on the
>> wall instead of following you around the house.
>
> What Orwell missed completely was that all of this has not needed
> to be imposed by an authoritative Big Brother with lethal enforcement but
> rather has been dangled and freely chosen like Coffiest.

Yes, it didn't occur to Orwell that Big Brother would actually turn out
to be Big Business. But let's face it, that one went past most people
(but not Pohl & Kornbluth, as you point out).

> Orwell made it look like it should be easy to avoid developing a
> society like that, just keep hold of the essential freedoms and your good -
> right ? Wrong, as it turns out it's far easier to keep people in line with
> carrots than sticks, and carrots leave far more room for subtlety just as
> there are far more subtle ways of keeping people scared than an endless
> rotating war. Like I say simplistic and naive.
>
>> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
>> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
>> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
>> replaced by social media.
>
> For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
> nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and reinvent
> slavery.

Societies seem to need a slave class. _Brave New World_ described this
in some detail. We thought that machines would take the place of this
class - but instead have turned out to be agents of the ruling class.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin

1p166

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Nov 3, 2021, 9:02:26 PM11/3/21
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On 11/3/21 3:26 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:27:54 -0400
> 1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:
>
>> The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
>> ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
>> understood the utility of cultivating those
>> fake "sides".
>
> Sadly this and all above it is all too true - the lessons of
> Machiavelli and Sun Tzu are well understood by the major players and have
> been polished for centuries into a smooth art. In a similar vein I fairly
> recently re-read Orwell's 1984 and found it shockingly simplistic and naive,
> that was a sobering discovery.

It used to be the politicians/priesthood, but then
the ADVERTISERS came - and post-WW2 undertook what
you might call the "science of salesmanship", lots
of psych experiments designed to yield objective
data. What motivates people, in what ways, how much,
how long ... they made manipulation a science. And
then the politicians/priesthood (esp evangelicals)
borrowed all that data.

I'll rec a somewhat old book to you - it can still
be had. It was writ in the late 50s by a polymath
named Jaques Ellul and called "The Technological
Society". It was not about computers - it was about
the growth of science-informed psychological
manipulation by State and private entities. The
original was in French, but the English translation
is perfectly readable, albeit with some rather odd
wording at times.

Hmm ... I wonder what Obama's "Brain Initiative" was
REALLY supposed to find out :-)


> The indoctrination for it starts in the earliest school with "What's
> your favourite colour" and gets strengthened outside the classroom with
> "Who do you support".
>
> I remain thankful that Hermann Göring's astute observation on the
> ease of raising war fever is not widely utilised today - I remain slightly
> suspicious about the Falkland's War being a field test of the principle, it
> was certainly a good demonstration if not.
>

Goebbels ... Goring's interests rarely strayed from killing
people .......

Goebbels was a very GOOD propagandist ... but fortunately
his instincts and insights were mostly limited to German
culture. His stuff never translated very well.

But if Goebbels had the wealth of scientific data the
Mad Men compiled ...

Anyway, the MS/Apple "duality" is a sort of deliberate
scam. You pick a side and are encouraged to feel all
superior about it, hurl distain at "those OTHERS".
Meanwhile the big investors buy stock in BOTH companies
and encourage the 'competition' illusion.

Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)

Dave Garland

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Nov 4, 2021, 1:01:42 AM11/4/21
to
On 11/3/2021 8:02 PM, 1p166 wrote:

>   Goebbels ... Goring's interests rarely strayed from killing
>   people .......

Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was
more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation:

> Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.
> Hermann Goring

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Nov 4, 2021, 1:30:03 AM11/4/21
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On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 21:02:18 -0400
1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:

> Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)

Nah! Second best, BSD is the best :)

The Natural Philosopher

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Nov 4, 2021, 7:05:24 AM11/4/21
to
On 03/11/2021 19:58, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
> nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and reinvent
> slavery.

We never lost slavery. We just use poverty and debt, not chains.

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 7:08:16 AM11/4/21
to
On 04/11/2021 01:02, 1p166 wrote:
> On 11/3/21 3:26 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:27:54 -0400
>> 1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:
>>
>>>     The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
>>>     ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
>>>     understood the utility of cultivating those
>>>     fake "sides".
>>
>>     Sadly this and all above it is all too true - the lessons of
>> Machiavelli and Sun Tzu are well understood by the major players and have
>> been polished for centuries into a smooth art. In a similar vein I fairly
>> recently re-read Orwell's 1984 and found it shockingly simplistic and
>> naive,
>> that was a sobering discovery.
>
>   It used to be the politicians/priesthood, but then
>   the ADVERTISERS came - and post-WW2 undertook what
>   you might call the "science of salesmanship", lots
>   of psych experiments designed to yield objective
>   data. What motivates people, in what ways, how much,
>   how long ... they made manipulation a science.  And
>   then the politicians/priesthood (esp evangelicals)
>   borrowed all that data.
>

Black magic, meet science.
And I hold stock in the big investors.


>   Besides we Linux people know WE are the best  :-)

From a certain technological point of view, yes.

But it ain't the only point of view.

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 7:09:30 AM11/4/21
to
Goering or Göring - not Goring. That's what bulls do.

--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

Bob Eager

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 9:48:31 AM11/4/21
to
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 05:01:56 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 21:02:18 -0400 1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:
>
>> Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)
>
> Nah! Second best, BSD is the best :)

+1

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Bob Eager

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 9:49:04 AM11/4/21
to
Or a place in Sussex.

Kurt Weiske

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 11:18:39 AM11/4/21
to
To: Charlie Gibbs
-=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linix,alt.folklore.computers <=-

CG> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
CG> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
CG> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
CG> replaced by social media.

Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| https://realitycheckbbs.org



... Discover your formulas and abandon them
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org

Scott Lurndal

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 11:46:25 AM11/4/21
to
Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:
>On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 05:01:56 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 21:02:18 -0400 1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)
>>
>> Nah! Second best, BSD is the best :)
>
>+1

-2.

See the pdp10 usenet group for a recent example of where BSD falls down.

SVR4 forever! :-)

Scott Lurndal

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 11:47:53 AM11/4/21
to
"Kurt Weiske" <kurt....@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-n7j-this> writes:
> To: Charlie Gibbs
>-=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to
>comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linix,alt.folklore.computers <=-
>
> CG> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
> CG> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
> CG> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
> CG> replaced by social media.
>
>Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)
>

They may already have a SOMA[*] office. Many tech companies
have offices there.


[*] south of market area

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 12:30:03 PM11/4/21
to
On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 07:17:00 -0700
"Kurt Weiske" <kurt....@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-n7j-this> wrote:

> To: Charlie Gibbs
> -=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to
> comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linix,alt.folklore.computers <=-
>
> CG> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
> CG> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
> CG> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
> CG> replaced by social media.
>
> Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)

https://soylent.com/ - No this is not a joke

Quadibloc

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 12:51:31 PM11/4/21
to
On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 3:34:39 PM UTC-6, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2021-11-03, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> > What Orwell missed completely was that all of this has not needed
> > to be imposed by an authoritative Big Brother with lethal enforcement but
> > rather has been dangled and freely chosen like Coffiest.

> Yes, it didn't occur to Orwell that Big Brother would actually turn out
> to be Big Business. But let's face it, that one went past most people
> (but not Pohl & Kornbluth, as you point out).

Orwell was reacting, perhaps, to McCarthyism, by warning of the danger
that a long-continued Cold War could cause the West to become like the
Soviet Union.

Since Brave New World was already out there, the alternative of an iron fist
hidden in a velvet glove had been addressed in literature already; his goal
was not to imitate it.

John Savard

Quadibloc

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 1:02:41 PM11/4/21
to
On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 3:34:39 PM UTC-6, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> Societies seem to need a slave class. _Brave New World_ described this
> in some detail. We thought that machines would take the place of this
> class - but instead have turned out to be agents of the ruling class.

And here I thought that the slave class subsidizing the people of Western
industrialized nations such as the one I live in as well as your own was the
labor force of the PRC.

Yet, the time when Canada, the United States, and much of the world was
happiest was when there was no 'slave class'; in the early 'sixties, we made
our own TV sets and radios, out of vacuum tubes even, and so there were
decent jobs for everyone.

Still, despite the pandemic, we're having the Great Resignation - apparently
the world is currently in what will become known as the YouTube Bubble.

Having only recently - some two million years ago - evolved from the
chimpanzee, it might not be too outrageous to suppose that a significant
proportion of the human race is not yet well-developed enough for civilized
life. (ObSF: _The Island of Doctor Moreau_ by H. G. Wells.) But we don't
have as much clear evidence of that as we might, otherwise, because we're
neglecting the education system - presumably out of a perceived need for
a slave class - so that we have many people whose inability to function as
responsible citizens was not genetically fore-ordained.

John Savard

Quadibloc

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 1:11:46 PM11/4/21
to
On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:01:42 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote:

> Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was
> more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation:

> > Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders
> > of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to
> > drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship,
> > or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
> > can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
> > have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists
> > for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
> > in every country.

Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly.

The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland,
as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them.

The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having
invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by
Germany, would give it a strategic advantage.

Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.

So, while the pattern Goering identified was hardly unique to the Nazi regime,
it's still true that there's a difference between aggressive countries and peaceful
ones. Democracies may stir the people up against threats that are not immediate,
but they're rather less likely to engage in blatantly aggressive wars.

John Savard

Quadibloc

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 1:16:02 PM11/4/21
to
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:11:46 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.

And neither did Franklin Delano Roosevelt, which was my point.

John Savard

Charlie Gibbs

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 1:19:47 PM11/4/21
to
On 2021-11-04, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 07:17:00 -0700
> "Kurt Weiske" <kurt....@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-n7j-this> wrote:
>
>> To: Charlie Gibbs
>> -=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to
>> comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linix,alt.folklore.computers <=-
>>
>>> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
>>> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
>>> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
>>> replaced by social media.
>>
>> Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)

Maybe the inventors of the Soma cube puzzle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_cube

might sue them.

Rumour has it that the puzzle was named after Huxley's drug.

A friend played with it a lot in the early '70s,
and subscribed to a newsletter whose trademark
was a 2 x 2 x 7 tower with one cube missing.
Originally this was a very stable structure,
but my friend found a way to build it in a very
unstable form. He liked to think that there
was a lot of screaming when the newsletter editors
read his letter explaining what he had done.

> https://soylent.com/ - No this is not a joke

That web site sets some sort of JavaScript record.
I had to tell NoScript to "Temporarily allow all
this page" half a dozen times before I could see
the whole thing.

I didn't find Soylent Green, although their
mint chocolate flavour comes close...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin

Charlie Gibbs

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 1:19:48 PM11/4/21
to
On 2021-11-04, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 03/11/2021 19:58, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
>> nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and
>> reinvent slavery.
>
> We never lost slavery. We just use poverty and debt, not chains.

Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men.
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen.

And as through your live you travel,
Yes, as through your life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home.

-- Woody Guthrie: Pretty Boy Floyd

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin

Charlie Gibbs

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 1:26:54 PM11/4/21
to
On 2021-11-04, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 3:34:39 PM UTC-6, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Societies seem to need a slave class. _Brave New World_ described this
>> in some detail. We thought that machines would take the place of this
>> class - but instead have turned out to be agents of the ruling class.
>
> And here I thought that the slave class subsidizing the people of Western
> industrialized nations such as the one I live in as well as your own was the
> labor force of the PRC.

That's a good part of it. But let's face it, it's necessary (not to
mention fun) to have lots of slaves.

> Yet, the time when Canada, the United States, and much of the world was
> happiest was when there was no 'slave class'; in the early 'sixties, we made
> our own TV sets and radios, out of vacuum tubes even, and so there were
> decent jobs for everyone.
>
> Still, despite the pandemic, we're having the Great Resignation - apparently
> the world is currently in what will become known as the YouTube Bubble.
>
> Having only recently - some two million years ago - evolved from the
> chimpanzee, it might not be too outrageous to suppose that a significant
> proportion of the human race is not yet well-developed enough for civilized
> life. (ObSF: _The Island of Doctor Moreau_ by H. G. Wells.) But we don't
> have as much clear evidence of that as we might, otherwise, because we're
> neglecting the education system - presumably out of a perceived need for
> a slave class - so that we have many people whose inability to function as
> responsible citizens was not genetically fore-ordained.

And now, the median human intelligence (as well as sense of responsibility)
is falling below the point necessary to sustain democracy.

Maus

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 1:31:49 PM11/4/21
to
On 2021-11-04, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:01:42 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote:
>
>> Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was
>> more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation:
>
>> > Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders
>> > of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to
>> > drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship,
>> > or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
>> > can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
>> > have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists
>> > for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
>> > in every country.
>
> Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly.
>
> The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland,
> as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them.

The Polish corridor was a problem that the natzis used as an excuse to
attack poland, but it was a real problem.

Large parts of Czechslovakian were German speaking , The Austria-Hungarian Empire,
which cz* had been created fro, was multiethnic. The German speakers
were driven out after the war, and some of them, that moved to the Ruhr
area, did very well since.
>
> The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having
> invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by
> Germany, would give it a strategic advantage.
>
> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.

What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
not.

(The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build
superbattleships which were by then outdated)

>
> So, while the pattern Goering identified was hardly unique to the Nazi regime,
> it's still true that there's a difference between aggressive countries and peaceful
> ones. Democracies may stir the people up against threats that are not immediate,
> but they're rather less likely to engage in blatantly aggressive wars.
>
> John Savard
War is an evil, cruel thing. Remember the Delphic prophesy

"If you go to war, a great empire will be destroyed"

--
grey...@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!

D.J.

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 2:04:11 PM11/4/21
to
[snip]

You might look up a book, I have it but don't remember the exact
title, which is basically titled 'the 31 days of January, 1941'.

Each chapter is a day in that month. It shows the US totally
unprepared, and the delusional and/or idiotic lack of preparedness on
the US West coast, and the continued lack of preparedness throughout
WW2.

The general out there, who foamed at the mouth until citizens of
Japanese ancestry were forcibly moved to concentration camps, was not
only a liar, but incompetent. Also many alerts for Japanese aircraft
that weren't there. And when Japanese submarines showed up, with
aircraft, no one seemed to notice until they left.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Nov 4, 2021, 3:00:03 PM11/4/21
to
On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 10:11:44 -0700 (PDT)
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly.

Hardly self-exculpatory, he was essentially admitting this:

> The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland,
> as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them.

Nothing in his statement suggested that the truth was required to
achieve the ends, only that the ends were simple to achieve by making the
right kind of statements true or not.

Rich Alderson

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 3:26:46 PM11/4/21
to
+1

--
Rich Alderson ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 3:30:02 PM11/4/21
to
On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 00:21:46 -0400
Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

> I took to Scripsit like a duck to water.

You avoided Electric Pencil - IIRC that was a good move.

Rich Alderson

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 3:37:10 PM11/4/21
to
_Animal Farm_ was published in 1945, _1984_ in 1948.

Senator Joseph McCarthy made his first speech about his "list of Communists in
the State Department" in 1950.

I do not believe that Eric Blair was reacting to anything in the US, but rather
to the Stalinist takeover of the international Communist Party starting in the
Spanish Civil War.

Reference: _Cold Warriors: Writers who Waged the Literary Cold War_ by Duncan
White, 2019. Covers both Western and Soviet writers, and I recommend it highly.

711 Spooky Mart

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 4:10:44 PM11/4/21
to
On 11/4/21 9:17 AM, Kurt Weiske wrote:
> To: Charlie Gibbs
> -=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to
> comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linix,alt.folklore.computers <=-
>
> CG> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
> CG> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
> CG> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
> CG> replaced by social media.


Big Brother says, "Drink your fluoride. Take your shots. Don't ask
questions. There will never be a lethal round of those mandatory
boosters shots. We promise. We're here to save you by culling--er, um,
ahem--reducing the population."

--
──┏━━━━┓──┏━━┓───┏━━┓── ┌────────────────────────┐ ┌────────┐
──┗━━┓─┃──┗┓─┃───┗┓─┃── │ Spooky Mart [chan] 711 │ │ always │
─────┃─┃──┏┛─┗┓──┏┛─┗┓─ │ https://bitmessage.org │ │ open │
─────┗━┛──┗━━━┛──┗━━━┛─ └────────────────────────┘ └────────┘

gareth evans

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 4:13:11 PM11/4/21
to
On 04/11/2021 11:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/11/2021 19:58, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
>> nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and reinvent
>> slavery.
>
> We never lost slavery. We just use poverty and debt, not chains.
>

It is strange that the current wokery about removing the symbolism
of slavery, pulling down statues or renaming educational establishments,
continues to support the descendant spawn of the Norman invaders who
subjugated our ancestors into the slavery of serfdom

711 Spooky Mart

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 4:20:35 PM11/4/21
to
On 11/4/21 11:51 AM, Quadibloc wrote:

[...]

> Orwell was reacting, perhaps, to McCarthyism, by warning of the danger
> that a long-continued Cold War could cause the West to become like the
> Soviet Union.

YGBSM.

McCarthy was right. You are witnessing and living through a communist
color revolution in the United States and the west in general. Your
denial of the obvious with this anti-McCarthy tripe is just gross.

The communists has already infiltrated academia and the media industrial
complex. They were infiltrating the Federal Government and were building
a revolutionary color revolution force within the ranks of our own
government. McCarthy was on to them. Communism always equals death and
mass murder. Vide Cuba if you have any doubts.

They are using Stalin's salami-slicer strategy right now with the
nonsensical COVID pandemic and the constant left vs. right agitation.
The Bolsheviks did the same tactics before they mass murdered tens of
millions of people.

If you think you are safe by working with them, know this. After they
take power, the first round of people they line up against the wall and
shoot is the intelligentsia who helped them take over. It's called tying
up loose ends.

711 Spooky Mart

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 4:23:40 PM11/4/21
to
On 11/4/21 12:26 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> And now, the median human intelligence (as well as sense of responsibility)
> is falling below the point necessary to sustain democracy.

"Democracy is government ...

by the people ...

of the people ...

for the people ...

but the people are retarded." --Osho

Bob Eager

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 4:34:20 PM11/4/21
to
I was thinking of SOcial MediA.

Mike Spencer

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 6:21:17 PM11/4/21
to

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:

> On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 07:17:00 -0700
> "Kurt Weiske" <kurt....@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-n7j-this> wrote:
>
>> Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)
>
> https://soylent.com/ - No this is not a joke

But is it Green?

Clinging doggedly to the notion of literary allusion, would it sell
better if they called it Heracliophorbia? Or Filboid Studge?

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 6:30:02 PM11/4/21
to
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:19:45 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> I didn't find Soylent Green, although their
> mint chocolate flavour comes close...

You won't find Soylent Green in the book either.

J. Clarke

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 7:10:11 PM11/4/21
to
Or as we grow closer and closer to achieving actual democracy we see
more and more why it's a bad idea.

Peter Flass

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 7:11:56 PM11/4/21
to
Apparently there’s a lawsuit about “Meta.”

--
Pete

Peter Flass

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 7:11:57 PM11/4/21
to
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 07:17:00 -0700
> "Kurt Weiske" <kurt....@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-n7j-this> wrote:
>
>> To: Charlie Gibbs
>> -=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to
>> comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linix,alt.folklore.computers <=-
>>
>>> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
>>> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
>>> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
>>> replaced by social media.
>>
>> Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)
>
> https://soylent.com/ - No this is not a joke
>

Either they don’t watch movies, or they’re counting on others not watching.

--
Pete

Peter Flass

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 7:11:57 PM11/4/21
to
Your ancestors were probably already serfs. The Norman conquest swapped one
ruling class for another.

--
Pete

Charlie Gibbs

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 7:27:22 PM11/4/21
to
On 2021-11-04, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:

> On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:47:51 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> "Kurt Weiske" <kurt....@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-n7j-this> writes:
>>
>>> Charlie Gibbs wrote to
>>> comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linix,alt.folklore.computers
>>>
>>>> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
>>>> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
>>>> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
>>>> replaced by social media.
>>>
>>> Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)
>>
>> They may already have a SOMA[*] office. Many tech companies have
>> offices there.
>>
>> [*] south of market area
>
> I was thinking of SOcial MediA.

Good one. :-)

Charlie Gibbs

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 7:27:23 PM11/4/21
to
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
-- The Who

Charlie Gibbs

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 7:27:23 PM11/4/21
to
Democracy is the worst form of government,
except for all the others.
-- Winston Churchill

J. Clarke

unread,
Nov 4, 2021, 9:44:01 PM11/4/21
to
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 23:27:21 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

>On 2021-11-04, J Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:26:51 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
>> <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> And now, the median human intelligence (as well as sense of responsibility)
>>> is falling below the point necessary to sustain democracy.
>>
>> Or as we grow closer and closer to achieving actual democracy we see
>> more and more why it's a bad idea.
>
> Democracy is the worst form of government,
> except for all the others.
> -- Winston Churchill

The Prime Minister of a monarchy with a parliament one of whose houses
is the House of Lords. I don't think he really had all that much
experience of democracy.

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Nov 4, 2021, 11:47:23 PM11/4/21
to
Maus <Grey...@mail.com> writes:
> What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
> Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
> not.

Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on
behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to
include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with
US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the
west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the
east. Hull Note
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_note
Harry Dexter White & Venona intercepts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White#Venona_project
More Venona
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/venona/

Benn Stein in "The Battle of Bretton Woods" spends pages 55-58
discussing "Operation Snow".
https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Bretton-Woods-Relations-University-ebook/dp/B00B5ZQ72Y/
pg56/loc1065-66:

The Soviets had, according to Karpov, used White to provoke Japan to
attack the United States. The scheme even had a name: "Operation Snow,"
snow referring to White.

... snip ...

also: Another example of White acting as an agent of influence for the
Soviet Union was his obstruction of an authorized $200 million loan to
Nationalist China in 1943, which he had been officially instructed to
execute. ... contributing to Nationalist loosing China.

The Japanese Surrender in 1945 is Still Poorly Understood
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/181372
General Dwight Eisenhower, in his memoirs, recalled a visit from
Secretary of War Henry Stimson in late July 1945: "I voiced to him my
grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already
defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and
secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world
opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no
longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief
that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with
a minimum loss of 'face.'" Eisenhower reiterated the point years later
in a Newsweek interview in 1963, saying that "the Japanese were ready to
surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

... snip ...

Mythmaking and the Atomic Destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/08/06/mythmaking-and-the-atomic-destruction-of-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/
Reality: Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed to prevent the Soviets
from making a contribution to the victory against Japan, which would
have forced Washington to allow Moscow to participate in the postwar
occupation and reconstruction of the country. It was also the intention
to intimidate the Soviet leadership and thus to wrest concessions from
it with respect to the postwar arrangements in Germany and Eastern
Europe. Finally, it was not the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
but the Soviet entry into the war against Japan, which caused Tokyo to
surrender.

... snip ...

Apparently Roosevelt didn't believe that US could defeat Japan without
Soviets and had agreement with Stalin where Soviet would come in against
Japan after the Germans had been defeated. Other reference "The Cover-Up
at Omaha Beach"
https://www.amazon.com/Cover-Up-Omaha-Beach-Rangers-Battery-ebook/dp/B00J75ISNU/

Soviets sent 1.5M troops into Manchuria and quickly defeated million
Japanese troops and were within three days of invading Japanese homeland
when the bombs were dropped.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Manchuria By comparison
US had 600k toops and battleships for Okinawa against 76k Japanese (and
US was months away from mounting a homeland invasion)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

The War Was Won Before Hiroshima--And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb
Knew It. Seventy years after the bombing, will Americans face the brutal
truth?
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-the-us-really-bombed-hiroshima/

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

1p166

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Nov 4, 2021, 11:51:10 PM11/4/21
to
On 11/4/21 1:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 21:02:18 -0400
> 1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:
>
>> Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)
>
> Nah! Second best, BSD is the best :)

"Close competitor" :-)

Sorry, but the BSDs are still kinda "unrefined".
You have to do about 50% more work to achieve the
same results.

Some may see that as good, but there could be some
debate on that subject.

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Nov 4, 2021, 11:53:42 PM11/4/21
to
Maus <Grey...@mail.com> writes:
> (The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build
> superbattleships which were by then outdated)

The Age of Battleships Is Dead and Long Gone. Battleships were mighty in
their day. But the advent of airplanes and missiles meant that such
large, lumbering warships made no sense anymore.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/age-battleships-dead-and-long-gone-189247

The Ultimate Battleship Battle: Japan's Yamato vs. America's Iowa. It
would have been the ultimate battle on the high seas: Yamato
vs. Iowa. Who would have won?
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-ultimate-battleship-battle-japans-yamato-vs-americas-13737
recommends Parshall's Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway
https://www.amazon.com/Shattered-Sword-Untold-Battle-Japanese-ebook/dp/B005NIQ8SM/
pg5/loc76-78:

The battleships wouldn’t be sailing this morning. No surprise there,
joked Akagi’s crewmen–they hadn’t done anything during the entire
war. For them the battleships were irrelevant, nothing more than a
symbol of a bygone era. Worse yet, in the workaholic culture of the
Imperial Navy, which, popular lore had it, operated eight days a week,
the battleships were seen as slackers.

... snip ...

... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.

Leonard Blaisdell

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Nov 5, 2021, 1:46:55 AM11/5/21
to
On 2021-11-04, Mike Spencer <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

> Clinging doggedly to the notion of literary allusion, would it sell
> better if they called it Heracliophorbia? Or Filboid Studge?


I've monitored this group for 25 years but don't think I've ever posted.
I've always run a Mac, and there is little to no Mac traffic here.
Without googling, I do know what Filboid Studge is, one of many great
Saki stories.

<https://postimg.cc/GHkV2D84>

Without googling, I have no idea what heracliophorbia is.

Mike Spencer

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Nov 5, 2021, 3:01:21 AM11/5/21
to

Leonard Blaisdell <leobla...@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 2021-11-04, Mike Spencer <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> Clinging doggedly to the notion of literary allusion, would it sell
>> better if they called it Heracliophorbia? Or Filboid Studge?
>
> I've monitored this group for 25 years but don't think I've ever posted.

Well, about time then, eh?

> I've always run a Mac, and there is little to no Mac traffic here.

Some might say that Macs are barely old enough, even now, to be
folklore. Take heart, time flies. :-)

> Without googling, I do know what Filboid Studge is, one of many great
> Saki stories.

Just so. Full text at:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Filboid_Studge,_the_Story_of_a_Mouse_That_Helped

> <https://postimg.cc/GHkV2D84>
>
> Without googling, I have no idea what heracliophorbia is.

H.G. Wells, The Food of the Gods.


It'th the earwigth Thir, it'th the earwigth!

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Nov 5, 2021, 3:30:04 AM11/5/21
to
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 19:10:08 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Or as we grow closer and closer to achieving actual democracy we see
> more and more why it's a bad idea.

Democracy is great when an honestly informed and engaged population
chooses among a set of honest and dedicated politicians.

It's a pity that there seems to be no cause so noble and correct
that it lacks supporters willing to lie to further it and in so doing
discredit it. It is also a pity that most people are more interested in
sports, telly, booze, drugs, feuds and sex than how their country is run. It
is also a pity that many politicians seems to be more interested in feeding
at the public trough than serving the state. Just three things to fix to
get a perfect system.

The optimal form of government is probably a benevolent
dictatorship, provided there is an endless supply of competent benevolent
dictators and the means to ensure that only such get to rule - I don't see
this as possible either.

What most people want from their government is that it lets them
get on with their lives with a minimum of visible interference - by this
criteria any government that indulges in war is an abject failure.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Nov 5, 2021, 3:30:04 AM11/5/21