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The PC industry is heading for collapse
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Jan 20, 2012, 10:02:28 AM1/20/12
to
graph with unit shipped/yr
The PC industry is heading for collapse
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/17828
the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
the same as heart stop beating.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Walter Bushell
Jan 20, 2012, 12:23:45 PM1/20/12
to
In article <m3wr8mw...@garlic.com>,
global economic system could collapse any moment, only Tinkerbell is
holding it together.) when everyone, almost everyone who is likely to
have one, already *has* a computer. You cannot expect to have constant
percentage (exponential) growth forever.
--
It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant
and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting. -- H. L. Mencken
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
> graph with unit shipped/yr
>
> The PC industry is heading for collapse
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/178
> 28
>
> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
> the same as heart stop beating.
It's flatlining in under bad and uncertain economic conditions (When the
> graph with unit shipped/yr
>
> The PC industry is heading for collapse
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/178
> 28
>
> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
> the same as heart stop beating.
global economic system could collapse any moment, only Tinkerbell is
holding it together.) when everyone, almost everyone who is likely to
have one, already *has* a computer. You cannot expect to have constant
percentage (exponential) growth forever.
--
It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant
and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting. -- H. L. Mencken
Rod Speed
Jan 20, 2012, 1:04:58 PM1/20/12
to
Walter Bushell wrote
I just dont believe that the shipped/year is true of china and india.
> (When the global economic system could collapse
> any moment, only Tinkerbell is holding it together.)
Its nothing like that bad.
> when everyone, almost everyone who is
> likely to have one, already *has* a computer.
But is likely adding more to their collection if only to try tablets etc.
> You cannot expect to have constant percentage (exponential) growth forever.
There is still a hell of a lot of the world which doesnt have one in china and india alone.
> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/17828
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't
>> quite the same as heart stop beating.
> It's flatlining in under bad and uncertain economic conditions
I doubt its even doing that with chine and india alone.
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/17828
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't
>> quite the same as heart stop beating.
> It's flatlining in under bad and uncertain economic conditions
I just dont believe that the shipped/year is true of china and india.
> (When the global economic system could collapse
> any moment, only Tinkerbell is holding it together.)
> when everyone, almost everyone who is
> likely to have one, already *has* a computer.
> You cannot expect to have constant percentage (exponential) growth forever.
Stan Barr
Jan 20, 2012, 1:57:40 PM1/20/12
to
On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:23:45 -0500, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <m3wr8mw...@garlic.com>,
> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
>
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>>
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-\
> In article <m3wr8mw...@garlic.com>,
> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
>
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>>
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
collapse/178
>> 28
>>
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
>> the same as heart stop beating.
>
> It's flatlining in under bad and uncertain economic conditions (When the
> global economic system could collapse any moment, only Tinkerbell is
> holding it together.) when everyone, almost everyone who is likely to
> have one, already *has* a computer. You cannot expect to have constant
> percentage (exponential) growth forever.
>
A gowing number of people are realising they don't really need the
>> 28
>>
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
>> the same as heart stop beating.
>
> It's flatlining in under bad and uncertain economic conditions (When the
> global economic system could collapse any moment, only Tinkerbell is
> holding it together.) when everyone, almost everyone who is likely to
> have one, already *has* a computer. You cannot expect to have constant
> percentage (exponential) growth forever.
>
latest desktop/laptop computer. An iPad and/or iPhone take care of
almost everything they need. Steve Jobs alluded to this a while back.
I must admit the latest iPad2 with iOS5 looks very tempting...
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr plan.b .at. dsl .dot. pipex .dot. com
The future was never like this!
Peter Flass
Jan 20, 2012, 2:00:15 PM1/20/12
to
> Anne& Lynn Wheeler<ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
>
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>>
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/178
>> 28
>>
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
>> the same as heart stop beating.
>
> It's flatlining in under bad and uncertain economic conditions (When the
> global economic system could collapse any moment, only Tinkerbell is
> holding it together.) when everyone, almost everyone who is likely to
> have one, already *has* a computer. You cannot expect to have constant
> percentage (exponential) growth forever.
>
That's why the growth is in smartphones and tablets. Given a reasonable
>
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>>
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/178
>> 28
>>
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
>> the same as heart stop beating.
>
> It's flatlining in under bad and uncertain economic conditions (When the
> global economic system could collapse any moment, only Tinkerbell is
> holding it together.) when everyone, almost everyone who is likely to
> have one, already *has* a computer. You cannot expect to have constant
> percentage (exponential) growth forever.
>
computer and a finite amount of money, people will probably want to
spend it on a new toy rather than replacing an old one with something
only marginally better.
philo
Jan 20, 2012, 2:50:47 PM1/20/12
to
> Anne& Lynn Wheeler<ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
>
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>>
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/178
>> 28
>>
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
>> the same as heart stop beating.
>
> It's flatlining in under bad and uncertain economic conditions (When the
> global economic system could collapse any moment, only Tinkerbell is
> holding it together.) when everyone, almost everyone who is likely to
> have one, already *has* a computer. You cannot expect to have constant
> percentage (exponential) growth forever.
>
yep
>
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>>
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/178
>> 28
>>
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
>> the same as heart stop beating.
>
> It's flatlining in under bad and uncertain economic conditions (When the
> global economic system could collapse any moment, only Tinkerbell is
> holding it together.) when everyone, almost everyone who is likely to
> have one, already *has* a computer. You cannot expect to have constant
> percentage (exponential) growth forever.
>
the PC is not dead yet
however I know quite a few folks who have given them up for tablets and
smartphones etc
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Jan 20, 2012, 3:43:46 PM1/20/12
to
Stan Barr <pla...@dsl.pipex.com> writes:
> A gowing number of people are realising they don't really need the
> latest desktop/laptop computer. An iPad and/or iPhone take care of
> almost everything they need. Steve Jobs alluded to this a while back.
>
> I must admit the latest iPad2 with iOS5 looks very tempting...
re:
> A gowing number of people are realising they don't really need the
> latest desktop/laptop computer. An iPad and/or iPhone take care of
> almost everything they need. Steve Jobs alluded to this a while back.
>
> I must admit the latest iPad2 with iOS5 looks very tempting...
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#76 The PC industry is heading for collapse
at '96 spring MDC at Moscone, some of the redmond people were worried
about the corporate revenue claiming that their model was everybody
always upgraded to the latest version ... to get the latest features
... however, starting around mid-90s, 95% of the people had all the
features that they needed/used ... little reason to continue with
upgrading every version. the scenario was then switching over to the
'60s annual new car mentality ... buying the latest w/o any real
justification.
the corresponding PC hardware recently has been bigger screens,
smaller screens, lighter laptops, longer battery, etc
misc. past posts mentioning '96 Moscone MDC:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#49 Virus propagation risks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#22 Why did TCP become popular ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004l.html#51 Specifying all biz rules in relational data
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006v.html#50 DOS C prompt in "Vista"?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007s.html#18 Oddly good news week: Google announces a Caps library for Javascript
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007u.html#87 CompUSA to Close after Jan. 1st 2008
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008r.html#26 realtors (and GM, too!)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010g.html#66 What is the protocal for GMT offset in SMTP (e-mail) header
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010p.html#40 The Great Cyberheist
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011c.html#50 IBM and the Computer Revolution
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011o.html#18 John R. Opel, RIP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011o.html#59 The lost art of real programming
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#141 With cloud computing back to old problems as DDos attacks
Charlie Gibbs
Jan 20, 2012, 12:44:13 PM1/20/12
to
In article <m3wr8mw...@garlic.com>, ly...@garlic.com
the connotation may be to those who believe that lack of constant
growth is the same as death. I, on the other hand, cherish the
words of environmentalist Edward Abbey: "Growth for the sake of
growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
(Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes:
> graph with unit shipped/yr
>
> The PC industry is heading for collapse
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/1
> 7828
>
> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
> the same as heart stop beating.
Yes, that is a bit of journalistic dishonesty, however appropriate
> graph with unit shipped/yr
>
> The PC industry is heading for collapse
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/1
> 7828
>
> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
> the same as heart stop beating.
the connotation may be to those who believe that lack of constant
growth is the same as death. I, on the other hand, cherish the
words of environmentalist Edward Abbey: "Growth for the sake of
growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Message has been deleted
Rod Speed
Jan 20, 2012, 6:44:45 PM1/20/12
to
Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> graph with unit shipped/yr
The number of PCs shipped per year still leaves the rest for dead.
> graph with unit shipped/yr
Bet what we have actually seen is the GROWTH in PCs
supplied per year has just moved to tablets recently.
It remains to be seen if that trend will continue once the tablet trend
stabilises and even if they do end up like laptops have, the total of all
desktop PCs, laptops, notebooks and tablets will still grow in numbers
supplied per year, if only because more will have more than one.
Not a shred of evidence of any purported collapse.
Rod Speed
Jan 20, 2012, 6:57:07 PM1/20/12
to
Morten Reistad wrote
But even that graph doesnt support that claim. The most it shows
is that the RATE OF GROWTH has stopped if that plateau is real
when you lump all the PC, laptops and tablets together. Its JUST
a change in format like we saw from desktop PCs to laptops.
> The desktop is getting to be more and more irrelevant,
LIke hell it is. We are just seeing a hell of a lot of gadgets AS WELL.
> and last summer purchases dipped below long term replacement rates briefly.
I dont believe that with the real figures from china and india.
> The desktop monopoly has without any doubt stifled development
> so much that all the creativity takes other paths.
Even sillier.
> This decade belongs to the gadgets. The iWhatevers,
> the Androids, the tablets, the cameras, the tv sets etc.
Yes, thats certainly where much of the growth is happening,
but dont forget that that graph is a log scale.
> All transforming the IT world from below.
Thats just plain wrong too. They arent in fact transforming much at all.
> I got reports from a good friend who lives in the middle of the chinese
> tornado of development; the big majority is developing for some Linux,
Because they just steal Win.
> about 40-40-20 for embedded, gadgets like andtroid-stuff,
> or for the desktop. There is a huge shift to arm processors.
Only with the newer stuff. Plenty dont use them for
their laptops because they dont perform well enough.
> The more or less free Linux platforms, and the cheap licensing
> on ARM cores fit the chinese production culture perfectly.
Theft of Win fits even better.
> The mainframes had a huge reaction from the attack of the killer
> minis, but got entrenched in their niche and survived. The minis
> weren't as lucky; they were wiped out by the killer micros. Now
> the micros have to contend with the attack of the killer gadgets.
Nope, they still have their own niche just like mainframes did.
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/17828
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't
>> quite the same as heart stop beating.
> I have said as much for a few years now.
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/17828
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't
>> quite the same as heart stop beating.
But even that graph doesnt support that claim. The most it shows
is that the RATE OF GROWTH has stopped if that plateau is real
when you lump all the PC, laptops and tablets together. Its JUST
a change in format like we saw from desktop PCs to laptops.
> The desktop is getting to be more and more irrelevant,
LIke hell it is. We are just seeing a hell of a lot of gadgets AS WELL.
> and last summer purchases dipped below long term replacement rates briefly.
I dont believe that with the real figures from china and india.
> The desktop monopoly has without any doubt stifled development
> so much that all the creativity takes other paths.
Even sillier.
> This decade belongs to the gadgets. The iWhatevers,
> the Androids, the tablets, the cameras, the tv sets etc.
Yes, thats certainly where much of the growth is happening,
but dont forget that that graph is a log scale.
> All transforming the IT world from below.
Thats just plain wrong too. They arent in fact transforming much at all.
> I got reports from a good friend who lives in the middle of the chinese
> tornado of development; the big majority is developing for some Linux,
Because they just steal Win.
> about 40-40-20 for embedded, gadgets like andtroid-stuff,
> or for the desktop. There is a huge shift to arm processors.
Only with the newer stuff. Plenty dont use them for
their laptops because they dont perform well enough.
> The more or less free Linux platforms, and the cheap licensing
> on ARM cores fit the chinese production culture perfectly.
Theft of Win fits even better.
> The mainframes had a huge reaction from the attack of the killer
> minis, but got entrenched in their niche and survived. The minis
> weren't as lucky; they were wiped out by the killer micros. Now
> the micros have to contend with the attack of the killer gadgets.
Nope, they still have their own niche just like mainframes did.
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Ben Pfaff
Jan 21, 2012, 1:48:34 AM1/21/12
to
Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
> everybody than a real PC....
Every so often someone suggests that I should try out a tablet.
I always ask how fast it does kernel compiles. So far no one has
had an answer for that.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org
> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
> everybody than a real PC....
Every so often someone suggests that I should try out a tablet.
I always ask how fast it does kernel compiles. So far no one has
had an answer for that.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org
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D.J.
Jan 21, 2012, 8:38:07 AM1/21/12
to
On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:48:34 -0800, b...@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff)
wrote:
Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
.
JimP.
--
Brushing aside the thorns so I can see the stars.
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ Drive-In movie theaters
http://story.drivein-jim.net/ A story Feb, 2011
wrote:
with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
.
JimP.
--
Brushing aside the thorns so I can see the stars.
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ Drive-In movie theaters
http://story.drivein-jim.net/ A story Feb, 2011
Walter Bushell
Jan 21, 2012, 8:58:37 AM1/21/12
to
In article <msflh75b6pjo0gpoh...@4ax.com>,
do so has benefits, but the majority of users have no interest in Tex or
similar systems and prefer well Microsoft Weird^H Word.
D.J. <pongb...@cableone.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:48:34 -0800, b...@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff)
> wrote:
> >Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
> >
> >> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
> >> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
> >> everybody than a real PC....
> >
> >Every so often someone suggests that I should try out a tablet.
> >I always ask how fast it does kernel compiles. So far no one has
> >had an answer for that.
>
> Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
> with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
> .
> JimP.
Compiling a kernel is a *cost* of your system of choice. The ability to
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:48:34 -0800, b...@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff)
> wrote:
> >Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
> >
> >> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
> >> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
> >> everybody than a real PC....
> >
> >Every so often someone suggests that I should try out a tablet.
> >I always ask how fast it does kernel compiles. So far no one has
> >had an answer for that.
>
> Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
> with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
> .
> JimP.
do so has benefits, but the majority of users have no interest in Tex or
similar systems and prefer well Microsoft Weird^H Word.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
GreyMaus
Jan 21, 2012, 10:22:12 AM1/21/12
to
On 2012-01-21, D.J <pongb...@cableone.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:48:34 -0800, b...@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff)
> wrote:
>>Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
>>
>>> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
>>> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
>>> everybody than a real PC....
>>
>>Every so often someone suggests that I should try out a tablet.
>>I always ask how fast it does kernel compiles. So far no one has
>>had an answer for that.
>
> Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
> with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
> .
> JimP.
My nephew, who does jobs for me, has his iphone constantly plugged into his
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:48:34 -0800, b...@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff)
> wrote:
>>Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
>>
>>> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
>>> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
>>> everybody than a real PC....
>>
>>Every so often someone suggests that I should try out a tablet.
>>I always ask how fast it does kernel compiles. So far no one has
>>had an answer for that.
>
> Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
> with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
> .
> JimP.
car, it won't last a day otherways. Another step in human-car intigration.
--
GreyMaus
Message has been deleted
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Jan 21, 2012, 11:12:44 AM1/21/12
to
Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
> They aren't intended for serious work, and I don't do serious work with
> them. I check facebook, I read manga, I check up on the daily news with
> them. That's what my rooted nook is good for....
>
> For serious work (and also for checking up on usenet :) ) I use a real
> computer.
> on x86 PCs open for replacement, while locking it down tight on ARM.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#76 The PC industry is heading for collapse
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#81 The PC industry is heading for collapse
there is analogy to the auto industry ... autos use to require an
enormous amount of care and feeding ... and numerous people were into
working on cars as profession and/or hobby. however the majority of the
people just wanted them for computer appliance ... reliability and
quality significantly improved ... and there were lots of complaints
that they didn't require as many service personal and it was much harder
for the hobbiests to work on them. another is the car after-market
industry was much larger than it currently is (large population adding
their own personal touches to vehicles).
in the early part of the last century there were similar comments about
both the auto industry and the telephone industry ... that their growth
was capped by requiring professional operators ... autos requiring
professional chauffeur/mechanic, and telephone requiring human operator
to make a call).
> They aren't intended for serious work, and I don't do serious work with
> them. I check facebook, I read manga, I check up on the daily news with
> them. That's what my rooted nook is good for....
>
> For serious work (and also for checking up on usenet :) ) I use a real
> computer.
>
> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
> everybody than a real PC....
>
> Not much doubt why M$ is anxious to point out they're making Win 8
> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
> everybody than a real PC....
>
> on x86 PCs open for replacement, while locking it down tight on ARM.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#76 The PC industry is heading for collapse
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#81 The PC industry is heading for collapse
there is analogy to the auto industry ... autos use to require an
enormous amount of care and feeding ... and numerous people were into
working on cars as profession and/or hobby. however the majority of the
people just wanted them for computer appliance ... reliability and
quality significantly improved ... and there were lots of complaints
that they didn't require as many service personal and it was much harder
for the hobbiests to work on them. another is the car after-market
industry was much larger than it currently is (large population adding
their own personal touches to vehicles).
in the early part of the last century there were similar comments about
both the auto industry and the telephone industry ... that their growth
was capped by requiring professional operators ... autos requiring
professional chauffeur/mechanic, and telephone requiring human operator
to make a call).
Stan Barr
Jan 21, 2012, 12:59:53 PM1/21/12
to
On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:36:47 -0500, Peter Flass <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, I would think usenet would be an excellent application for
> *pads, assuming a suitable client were available.
There is a newsreader for Android. I installed it on my tablet and it
*appears* to work, fetching headers etc, but don't display anything.
Must investigate further when I have time. Meanwhile it's ssh to the
server and use slrn,
>
> Actually, I would think usenet would be an excellent application for
> *pads, assuming a suitable client were available.
There is a newsreader for Android. I installed it on my tablet and it
*appears* to work, fetching headers etc, but don't display anything.
Must investigate further when I have time. Meanwhile it's ssh to the
server and use slrn,
D.J.
Jan 21, 2012, 1:36:42 PM1/21/12
to
On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:58:37 -0500, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:
etc.as well, are compiled on those devices at all.
A better similie than pencil/pen, would be you wouldn't use a skate
key to dismantle an aircraft engine.
wrote:
>In article <msflh75b6pjo0gpoh...@4ax.com>,
> D.J. <pongb...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:48:34 -0800, b...@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff)
>> wrote:
>> >Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
>> >
>> >> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
>> >> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
>> >> everybody than a real PC....
>> >
>> >Every so often someone suggests that I should try out a tablet.
>> >I always ask how fast it does kernel compiles. So far no one has
>> >had an answer for that.
>>
>> Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
>> with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
>> .
>> JimP.
>
>Compiling a kernel is a *cost* of your system of choice. The ability to
>do so has benefits, but the majority of users have no interest in Tex or
>similar systems and prefer well Microsoft Weird^H Word.
I doubt kernels for the linux based ereaders, and probably iphones,
> D.J. <pongb...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:48:34 -0800, b...@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff)
>> wrote:
>> >Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
>> >
>> >> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
>> >> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
>> >> everybody than a real PC....
>> >
>> >Every so often someone suggests that I should try out a tablet.
>> >I always ask how fast it does kernel compiles. So far no one has
>> >had an answer for that.
>>
>> Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
>> with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
>> .
>> JimP.
>
>Compiling a kernel is a *cost* of your system of choice. The ability to
>do so has benefits, but the majority of users have no interest in Tex or
>similar systems and prefer well Microsoft Weird^H Word.
etc.as well, are compiled on those devices at all.
A better similie than pencil/pen, would be you wouldn't use a skate
key to dismantle an aircraft engine.
Ben Pfaff
Jan 21, 2012, 1:41:04 PM1/21/12
to
D.J. <pongb...@cableone.net> writes:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:48:34 -0800, b...@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff)
> wrote:
>>Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
>>
>>> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
>>> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
>>> everybody than a real PC....
>>
>>Every so often someone suggests that I should try out a tablet.
>>I always ask how fast it does kernel compiles. So far no one has
>>had an answer for that.
>
> Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
> with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
Which is why their suggestion doesn't make sense. I write
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:48:34 -0800, b...@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff)
> wrote:
>>Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
>>
>>> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
>>> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
>>> everybody than a real PC....
>>
>>Every so often someone suggests that I should try out a tablet.
>>I always ask how fast it does kernel compiles. So far no one has
>>had an answer for that.
>
> Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
> with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
software. Tablets are for users.
Rob Doyle
Jan 21, 2012, 2:21:08 PM1/21/12
to
Tablets are for viewing "content".
Things with keyboards are for creating "content".
Rob.
Message has been deleted
Charles Richmond
Jan 21, 2012, 3:53:15 PM1/21/12
to
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote in message
news:911.437T6...@kltpzyxm.invalid...
> In article <m3wr8mw...@garlic.com>, ly...@garlic.com
> (Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes:
>
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
> the connotation may be to those who believe that lack of constant
> growth is the same as death. I, on the other hand, cherish the
> words of environmentalist Edward Abbey: "Growth for the sake of
> growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
>
But growth for its own sake is the ideology that economists use today. They
want to see at least a 3% increase in the GDP (Gross Domestic Product). Go
figure...
--
+<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>+
| Charles Richmond nume...@aquaporin4.com |
+<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>+
news:911.437T6...@kltpzyxm.invalid...
> In article <m3wr8mw...@garlic.com>, ly...@garlic.com
> (Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes:
>
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>>
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/1
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> 7828
>>
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
>> the same as heart stop beating.
>
> Yes, that is a bit of journalistic dishonesty, however appropriate
>>
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
>> the same as heart stop beating.
>
> the connotation may be to those who believe that lack of constant
> growth is the same as death. I, on the other hand, cherish the
> words of environmentalist Edward Abbey: "Growth for the sake of
> growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
>
But growth for its own sake is the ideology that economists use today. They
want to see at least a 3% increase in the GDP (Gross Domestic Product). Go
figure...
--
+<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>+
| Charles Richmond nume...@aquaporin4.com |
+<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>+
Message has been deleted
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Charles Richmond
Jan 21, 2012, 4:02:17 PM1/21/12
to
"Ben Pfaff" <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:87vco49...@blp.benpfaff.org...
On the i-pod touch and the i-phone, Apple does *not* sanction any software
that allows you to write a program. I don't know about the i-pad, but I
suspect it disallows programming also. It's really end-luser stuff and
*not* for programming types.
news:87vco49...@blp.benpfaff.org...
that allows you to write a program. I don't know about the i-pad, but I
suspect it disallows programming also. It's really end-luser stuff and
*not* for programming types.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Rod Speed
Jan 21, 2012, 4:25:27 PM1/21/12
to
Dan Espen wrote
> Peter Flass <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote
>> Charlie Gibbs wrote
>>> Morten Reistad wrote
>>>> I got reports from a good friend who lives in the middle of the
>>>> chinese tornado of development; the big majority is developing
>>>> for some Linux, about 40-40-20 for embedded, gadgets like
>>>> andtroid-stuff, or for the desktop. There is a huge shift to arm
>>>> processors.
>>> It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, given
>>> Microsoft's intentions to use UEFI to make it impossible to
>>> run anything but Windows on ARM-powered devices.
>> Given the abilities of the hacker community, I'd have to assume
>> someone has already solved this.
> Not already, the devices aren't being sold.
> But you've got the idea right, whatever scheme they come up with
> it will be broken in short order.
> This is just MSFT trying desperately to sell their product
> against a product that costs nothing. They have a long time
> to dominate but these tactics will only hasten the day that users
> revolt and try the free OS.
Bet it doesnt with the bulk of the users who just use what comes with the hardware they buy.
What remains to be seen is what tablets come to dominate the hardware sales.
> Peter Flass <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote
>> Charlie Gibbs wrote
>>> Morten Reistad wrote
>>>> I got reports from a good friend who lives in the middle of the
>>>> chinese tornado of development; the big majority is developing
>>>> for some Linux, about 40-40-20 for embedded, gadgets like
>>>> andtroid-stuff, or for the desktop. There is a huge shift to arm
>>>> processors.
>>> It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, given
>>> Microsoft's intentions to use UEFI to make it impossible to
>>> run anything but Windows on ARM-powered devices.
>> Given the abilities of the hacker community, I'd have to assume
>> someone has already solved this.
> Not already, the devices aren't being sold.
> But you've got the idea right, whatever scheme they come up with
> it will be broken in short order.
> This is just MSFT trying desperately to sell their product
> against a product that costs nothing. They have a long time
> to dominate but these tactics will only hasten the day that users
> revolt and try the free OS.
Bet it doesnt with the bulk of the users who just use what comes with the hardware they buy.
What remains to be seen is what tablets come to dominate the hardware sales.
Rod Speed
Jan 21, 2012, 4:33:01 PM1/21/12
to
Morten Reistad wrote
> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote
>> Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote
>>> They aren't intended for serious work, and I don't do serious work
>>> with them. I check facebook, I read manga, I check up on the daily
>>> news with them. That's what my rooted nook is good for....
>>> For serious work (and also for checking up on usenet :) ) I use a real computer.
> Yep. I don't expect the pc desktops to go away, like the micros killed
> off the minis. Rather, a slow stagnation where new sales are at or
> somewhat below the long term replacement rate.
Bet that doesnt happen any time soon if you lump all the PCs, laptops and tablets
together and just realise they are just variations on the physical format, as you must.
> From all accounts I see, this is where we are now.
Plenty have predicted all sorts of things that never happened.
Including the fools who were actually stupid enough to claim that Win would never fly.
>>> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer
>>> (a tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
>>> everybody than a real PC....
> And we have only seen the start.
I doubt it. You dont get that many format changes like laptops and tablets very often.
>>> Not much doubt why M$ is anxious to point out they're making Win 8
>>> on x86 PCs open for replacement, while locking it down tight on ARM.
> With a win8 that doesn't run the x86 windows binaries
> I don't leave microsoft much chance to call any shots at all.
We'll see...
> Here they must play follower to fit in.
They never have and wont be about to do that now.
>> re:
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#76 The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#81 The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> there is analogy to the auto industry ... autos use to require an
>> enormous amount of care and feeding ... and numerous people were into
>> working on cars as profession and/or hobby. however the majority of
>> the people just wanted them for computer appliance ... reliability and
>> quality significantly improved ... and there were lots of complaints that
>> they didn't require as many service personal and it was much harder
>> for the hobbiests to work on them. another is the car after-market
>> industry was much larger than it currently is (large population adding
>> their own personal touches to vehicles).
>> in the early part of the last century there were similar comments about
>> both the auto industry and the telephone industry ... that their growth
>> was capped by requiring professional operators ... autos requiring
>> professional chauffeur/mechanic, and telephone requiring human
>> operator to make a call).
> Yep. So we see dedicated systems that depend on the net for any
> advanced function; provided in a scalable, professional manner for
> tens of millions of devices; instead of the local "IT dude" fixing stuff.
Thats been predicted for a decade now. It remains to be seen
how many will go that route rather than just buying a new device
when they need to because devices will still fail physically.
> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote
>> Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote
>>> They aren't intended for serious work, and I don't do serious work
>>> with them. I check facebook, I read manga, I check up on the daily
>>> news with them. That's what my rooted nook is good for....
>>> For serious work (and also for checking up on usenet :) ) I use a real computer.
> off the minis. Rather, a slow stagnation where new sales are at or
> somewhat below the long term replacement rate.
Bet that doesnt happen any time soon if you lump all the PCs, laptops and tablets
together and just realise they are just variations on the physical format, as you must.
> From all accounts I see, this is where we are now.
Plenty have predicted all sorts of things that never happened.
Including the fools who were actually stupid enough to claim that Win would never fly.
>>> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer
>>> (a tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
>>> everybody than a real PC....
I doubt it. You dont get that many format changes like laptops and tablets very often.
>>> Not much doubt why M$ is anxious to point out they're making Win 8
>>> on x86 PCs open for replacement, while locking it down tight on ARM.
> I don't leave microsoft much chance to call any shots at all.
We'll see...
> Here they must play follower to fit in.
They never have and wont be about to do that now.
>> re:
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#76 The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#81 The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> there is analogy to the auto industry ... autos use to require an
>> enormous amount of care and feeding ... and numerous people were into
>> working on cars as profession and/or hobby. however the majority of
>> the people just wanted them for computer appliance ... reliability and
>> quality significantly improved ... and there were lots of complaints that
>> they didn't require as many service personal and it was much harder
>> for the hobbiests to work on them. another is the car after-market
>> industry was much larger than it currently is (large population adding
>> their own personal touches to vehicles).
>> in the early part of the last century there were similar comments about
>> both the auto industry and the telephone industry ... that their growth
>> was capped by requiring professional operators ... autos requiring
>> professional chauffeur/mechanic, and telephone requiring human
>> operator to make a call).
> advanced function; provided in a scalable, professional manner for
> tens of millions of devices; instead of the local "IT dude" fixing stuff.
Thats been predicted for a decade now. It remains to be seen
how many will go that route rather than just buying a new device
when they need to because devices will still fail physically.
Message has been deleted
Bernard Peek
Jan 22, 2012, 5:02:37 AM1/22/12
to
On 21/01/12 20:53, Charles Richmond wrote:
>> Yes, that is a bit of journalistic dishonesty, however appropriate
>> the connotation may be to those who believe that lack of constant
>> growth is the same as death. I, on the other hand, cherish the
>> words of environmentalist Edward Abbey: "Growth for the sake of
>> growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
>>
>
> But growth for its own sake is the ideology that economists use today.
> They want to see at least a 3% increase in the GDP (Gross Domestic
> Product). Go figure...
Economists are not a homogeneous group. They differ quite widely in what
>> Yes, that is a bit of journalistic dishonesty, however appropriate
>> the connotation may be to those who believe that lack of constant
>> growth is the same as death. I, on the other hand, cherish the
>> words of environmentalist Edward Abbey: "Growth for the sake of
>> growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
>>
>
> But growth for its own sake is the ideology that economists use today.
> They want to see at least a 3% increase in the GDP (Gross Domestic
> Product). Go figure...
they believe. There are plenty of green economists who think that 0%
growth is just fine.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
Message has been deleted
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Stephen Wolstenholme
Jan 22, 2012, 7:38:44 AM1/22/12
to
On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:02:17 -0600, "Charles Richmond"
<net...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>"Ben Pfaff" <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>news:87vco49...@blp.benpfaff.org...
>> D.J. <pongb...@cableone.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:48:34 -0800, b...@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff)
>>> wrote:
>>>>Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
>>>>> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
>>>>> everybody than a real PC....
>>>>
>>>>Every so often someone suggests that I should try out a tablet.
>>>>I always ask how fast it does kernel compiles. So far no one has
>>>>had an answer for that.
>>>
>>> Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
>>> with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
>>
>> Which is why their suggestion doesn't make sense. I write
>> software. Tablets are for users.
>>
>
>On the i-pod touch and the i-phone, Apple does *not* sanction any software
>that allows you to write a program. I don't know about the i-pad, but I
>suspect it disallows programming also. It's really end-luser stuff and
>*not* for programming types.
That's the main reason I haven't bought any i-anything
<net...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>"Ben Pfaff" <b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>news:87vco49...@blp.benpfaff.org...
>> D.J. <pongb...@cableone.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:48:34 -0800, b...@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff)
>>> wrote:
>>>>Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> But it'll be within a year that machines like the Eee Transformer (a
>>>>> tablet that docks to a keyboard) will be a better bet for almost
>>>>> everybody than a real PC....
>>>>
>>>>Every so often someone suggests that I should try out a tablet.
>>>>I always ask how fast it does kernel compiles. So far no one has
>>>>had an answer for that.
>>>
>>> Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
>>> with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
>>
>> Which is why their suggestion doesn't make sense. I write
>> software. Tablets are for users.
>>
>
>On the i-pod touch and the i-phone, Apple does *not* sanction any software
>that allows you to write a program. I don't know about the i-pad, but I
>suspect it disallows programming also. It's really end-luser stuff and
>*not* for programming types.
Steve
--
Neural network software applications, help and support.
Neural Network Software. http://www.npsl1.com
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. http://www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. http://www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. http://www.justnn.com
Peter Flass
Jan 22, 2012, 8:30:21 AM1/22/12
to
On 1/22/2012 5:43 AM, Morten Reistad wrote:
> In article<jff94l$cbu$1...@dont-email.me>,
> amazing number of the process control devices are. The armel architecture
> has a weird bootloader that goes directly into the linux image, so
> kernel upgrades are a bit tricky; but nothing more than having to
> make a debian package as an intermediate step.
>
> Even the little versatile controllers can have a gigabyte of USB disk
> with some swap added, and that is sufficient for a kernel build.
>
> I still don't think Microsoft has much control here. The dominant
> reaction to Linux systems is not that it has a different user interface,
> I have watched several dozen very non-tech people pick up Linux
> (ubuntu, mostly) very easily. Mom went right ahead to do productive
> work; just having a few minor issues with different placement of
> some buttons. She was 85 then.
>
> The #1 reason for linux complaints is that "it does not run $X", where
> $X is one or more Windows applications.
>
> Now, with Microsoft OS running on a different platform they will have
> the same user interface issues without a keyboard and mouse; and they
> will have "does not run $X" with compound interest.
Now that you say it, I think that's the issue. All the drones who are
getting so excited by having a tablet that runs windoze are probably
thinking that they can run orifice on it or something. No doubt M$ will
have something that interoperates with outlook, but even without the
difference in UI, a lot of people will probably not get what they expect.
> In article<jff94l$cbu$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Charles Richmond<net...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>> "Ben Pfaff"<b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>> news:87vco49...@blp.benpfaff.org...
>>> D.J.<pongb...@cableone.net> writes:
>>>
>
>>>> Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
>>>> with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
>>>
>>> Which is why their suggestion doesn't make sense. I write
>>> software. Tablets are for users.
>>>
>>
>> On the i-pod touch and the i-phone, Apple does *not* sanction any software
>> that allows you to write a program. I don't know about the i-pad, but I
>> suspect it disallows programming also. It's really end-luser stuff and
>> *not* for programming types.
>
> No, the iWhatever are generally not self-hosting systems. But an
>> "Ben Pfaff"<b...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>> news:87vco49...@blp.benpfaff.org...
>>> D.J.<pongb...@cableone.net> writes:
>>>
>
>>>> Not something they would be used for. Kinda like signing a document
>>>> with a pencil, when an ink pen is requred.
>>>
>>> Which is why their suggestion doesn't make sense. I write
>>> software. Tablets are for users.
>>>
>>
>> On the i-pod touch and the i-phone, Apple does *not* sanction any software
>> that allows you to write a program. I don't know about the i-pad, but I
>> suspect it disallows programming also. It's really end-luser stuff and
>> *not* for programming types.
>
> amazing number of the process control devices are. The armel architecture
> has a weird bootloader that goes directly into the linux image, so
> kernel upgrades are a bit tricky; but nothing more than having to
> make a debian package as an intermediate step.
>
> Even the little versatile controllers can have a gigabyte of USB disk
> with some swap added, and that is sufficient for a kernel build.
>
> I still don't think Microsoft has much control here. The dominant
> reaction to Linux systems is not that it has a different user interface,
> I have watched several dozen very non-tech people pick up Linux
> (ubuntu, mostly) very easily. Mom went right ahead to do productive
> work; just having a few minor issues with different placement of
> some buttons. She was 85 then.
>
> The #1 reason for linux complaints is that "it does not run $X", where
> $X is one or more Windows applications.
>
> Now, with Microsoft OS running on a different platform they will have
> the same user interface issues without a keyboard and mouse; and they
> will have "does not run $X" with compound interest.
Now that you say it, I think that's the issue. All the drones who are
getting so excited by having a tablet that runs windoze are probably
thinking that they can run orifice on it or something. No doubt M$ will
have something that interoperates with outlook, but even without the
difference in UI, a lot of people will probably not get what they expect.
Peter Flass
Jan 22, 2012, 8:37:25 AM1/22/12
to
On 1/22/2012 6:41 AM, Morten Reistad wrote:
>
> Without growth the americans will, in short, make another revolution.
> After all, they were pretty good at it the last time around.
>
It's possible to have a lot of progress without growth - certainly the
tech field shows this. The hard part is to relocate the investment from
areas that don't contribute to improved standard of living into areas
that do. For example, e can have better houses without having bigger
houses.
>
> Without growth the americans will, in short, make another revolution.
> After all, they were pretty good at it the last time around.
>
It's possible to have a lot of progress without growth - certainly the
tech field shows this. The hard part is to relocate the investment from
areas that don't contribute to improved standard of living into areas
that do. For example, e can have better houses without having bigger
houses.
Bernard Peek
Jan 22, 2012, 8:55:54 AM1/22/12
to
enterprises they invest in. What would be useful would be a rigorous and
objective assessment of social benefits, so that they could be rewarded too.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
Walter Bushell
Jan 22, 2012, 9:48:33 AM1/22/12
to
In article <jfh2ts$esu$1...@dont-email.me>,
down versions of the components so, some documents will not work even
word processing (Microsoft has tried to make Word also a page layout and
book writing program) and especially spreadsheets. The average user will
not notice.
--
It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant
and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting. -- H. L. Mencken
Peter Flass <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> Now that you say it, I think that's the issue. All the drones who are
> getting so excited by having a tablet that runs windoze are probably
> thinking that they can run orifice on it or something. No doubt M$ will
> have something that interoperates with outlook, but even without the
> difference in UI, a lot of people will probably not get what they expect.
A version of Office that does not do all the stuff Office does. Slimed
> Now that you say it, I think that's the issue. All the drones who are
> getting so excited by having a tablet that runs windoze are probably
> thinking that they can run orifice on it or something. No doubt M$ will
> have something that interoperates with outlook, but even without the
> difference in UI, a lot of people will probably not get what they expect.
down versions of the components so, some documents will not work even
word processing (Microsoft has tried to make Word also a page layout and
book writing program) and especially spreadsheets. The average user will
not notice.
--
It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant
and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting. -- H. L. Mencken
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Jan 22, 2012, 10:26:12 AM1/22/12
to
Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> writes:
> Not all economists do. Many see growth as a solver of many problems
> that would require some hefty spines of the politicians that have to
> tackle them. A cop-out.
>
> Growth keeps fiat money in place, so the politicians can collect the
> inherent 3-4% float, and the 2-3% tehcnology deflation. In reality
> they can print 5-6% money. As long as there is growth to mask the
> effects.
>
> No wonder the FED no longer publishes M3 figures (the real amount
> of money, not just cash or checking/credit cards, but also the
> savings and clearing accounts that hold the big volumes).
>
> Growth also masks the great increases in inequality, the power
> concentration into megacorporations, because there is something
> for everybody.
>
> Without growth the americans will, in short, make another revolution.
> After all, they were pretty good at it the last time around.
there were a couple articles/programs that a number of
> Without growth the americans will, in short, make another revolution.
> After all, they were pretty good at it the last time around.
(prominent/university) economists that they &/or their departments have
(undisclosed) large grants from large corporations (and/or are
consultants for), creating appearance of conflict of interest and/or
bias.
I visited these guys in the last century when they were still housed in
state incubator quarters (converted grade school) ... they now have more
upscale address. Early in the last decade they raised issues on how
wallstreet was treating risk
http://www.kamakuraco.com/
one of their founders recent blog entries
Collusion and CDS Dealer Volume
http://www.kamakuraco.com/Blog/tabid/231/EntryId/362/Collusion-and-CDS-Dealer-Volume.aspx
The Credit Default Swap Market and Anti-Trust Considerations
http://www.kamakuraco.com/Blog/tabid/231/EntryId/371/The-Credit-Default-Swap-Market-and-Anti-Trust-Considerations.aspx
and has reference to level of transparency and visibility at DTCC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Securities_Clearing_Corporation
the above wiki entry used to also have big section about DTCC records
and illegal naked short sales.
After working on financial transaction standards in the last century, I
had been asked in to NSCC (before merger between NSCC & DTC) to look at
improving integrity of trader transactions. After having worked on it
for awhile, I was told that the work was suspended, that side-effect of
the integrity work would have greatly increased transparency and
visibility ... which apparently is anathema to trader culture (a number
of recent articles about wallstreet is the antithesis of "open market")
this mentions over $700 Trillion in derivatives
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/ML14Dj02.html
also mentioned in this google+ entry
https://plus.google.com/u/0/102794881687002297268/posts/Zwu2dKeWBsJ
other recent (long-winded) comment about FED (and IMS hot-standby)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#67 Has anyone successfully migrated off mainframes?
there are a number of blogs that reference this graph/comparison ...
including this one:
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2011/10/journal-why-the-us-middle-class-is-broken.html
a few recent posts mentioning above:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#1 The war on terabytes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#3 We are on the brink of a historic decision [referring to defence cuts]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#30 Age of Greed: The Triumph of Finance and the Decline of America, 1970 to the Present
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#45 You may ask yourself, well, how did I get here?
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Stan Barr
Jan 22, 2012, 11:21:01 AM1/22/12
to
On 21 Jan 2012 22:31:55 GMT, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2012-01-21, Charles Richmond <net...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>
>> I see it like "Star Trek: TNG": they had little tablets to pass around
>> information and for reading books. They had little fold-down (lap top sort
>> of) computers on their desk to do the heavy-duty work... and also for
>> communication with other ships and star fleet. There is room for all of
>> these things in the world... but it's true that the tablets *will* cut into
>> regular computer sales in a big way.
>
> What ticks me off is the migration of tablet/phone user interfaces onto
> "regular" computers. Full size UIs made no sense on a phone, and phone
> UIs make no sense on a desktop monitor.
>
>
Yeah. When Ubuntu switched to its Unity interface I rapidly went back
to Gnome. And when Gnome made a mess out of Gnome3 I switched to XFCE
which I really like.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr plan.b .at. dsl .dot. pipex .dot. com
The future was never like this!
> On 2012-01-21, Charles Richmond <net...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>
>> I see it like "Star Trek: TNG": they had little tablets to pass around
>> information and for reading books. They had little fold-down (lap top sort
>> of) computers on their desk to do the heavy-duty work... and also for
>> communication with other ships and star fleet. There is room for all of
>> these things in the world... but it's true that the tablets *will* cut into
>> regular computer sales in a big way.
>
> What ticks me off is the migration of tablet/phone user interfaces onto
> "regular" computers. Full size UIs made no sense on a phone, and phone
> UIs make no sense on a desktop monitor.
>
>
Yeah. When Ubuntu switched to its Unity interface I rapidly went back
to Gnome. And when Gnome made a mess out of Gnome3 I switched to XFCE
which I really like.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr plan.b .at. dsl .dot. pipex .dot. com
The future was never like this!
Message has been deleted
Stephen Wolstenholme
Jan 22, 2012, 11:44:21 AM1/22/12
to
think about I did hate it!
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Jan 22, 2012, 11:45:47 AM1/22/12
to
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#87 The PC industry is heading for collapse
there was a recent tv news program looking at prominant economists and
whether they divulged that they and/or their departments were being paid
by large financial institutions, were on retainers by large financial
institutions and/or had grants from large financial institutions (and
the implications for conflict of interest and/or bias)
Should We Trust Paid Experts On The Volcker Rule?
http://baselinescenario.com/2012/01/22/should-we-trust-paid-experts-on-the-volcker-rule/
recent posts mentioning Volcker (&/or Volcker rule)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#44 Who originated the phrase "user-friendly"?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#72 Chris Dodd's SOPA crusading
Joe Makowiec
Jan 22, 2012, 11:59:43 AM1/22/12
to
On 22 Jan 2012 in alt.folklore.computers, Walter Bushell wrote:
> A version of Office that does not do all the stuff Office does. Slimed
> down versions of the components ...
> A version of Office that does not do all the stuff Office does. Slimed
I assume that's a Freudian slip?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087332/
--
Joe Makowiec
http://makowiec.org/
Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Message has been deleted
Walter Bushell
Jan 22, 2012, 1:14:41 PM1/22/12
to
In article <Xns9FE27A055AA18ma...@88.198.244.100>,
Joe Makowiec <mako...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2012 in alt.folklore.computers, Walter Bushell wrote:
>
> > A version of Office that does not do all the stuff Office does. Slimed
> > down versions of the components ...
>
> I assume that's a Freudian slip?
>
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087332/
I typoed it and decided to leave it stand.
> On 22 Jan 2012 in alt.folklore.computers, Walter Bushell wrote:
>
> > A version of Office that does not do all the stuff Office does. Slimed
> > down versions of the components ...
>
> I assume that's a Freudian slip?
>
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087332/
Rod Speed
Jan 22, 2012, 1:18:03 PM1/22/12
to
Morten Reistad wrote
> Charles Richmond <net...@aquaporin4.com> wrote
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote
>>> ly...@garlic.com Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote
>> But growth for its own sake is the ideology that economists
>> use today. They want to see at least a 3% increase in the
>> GDP (Gross Domestic Product). Go figure...
> that would require some hefty spines of the politicians that have to tackle them.
Thats overstated, most obviously with the great depression.
> A cop-out.
> Growth keeps fiat money in place,
Its irrelevant to fiat money now.
> so the politicians can collect the inherent 3-4%
> float, and the 2-3% tehcnology deflation.
That last is irrelevant to growth too.
> In reality they can print 5-6% money. As long
> as there is growth to mask the effects.
And they can even if there is no real growth too.
> No wonder the FED no longer publishes M3 figures (the real
> amount of money, not just cash or checking/credit cards, but
> also the savings and clearing accounts that hold the big volumes).
Mindless conspiracy theory.
> Growth also masks the great increases in inequality,
Modern welfare systems do that MUCH more effectively.
> the power concentration into megacorporations,
Fraid not.
> because there is something for everybody.
Not because of growth, because of technology.
> Without growth the americans will, in short, make another revolution.
Nope, we dont see those in the modern first world anymore, regardless of growth.
We didnt see that during the great depression when there was no growth.
> After all, they were pretty good at it the last time around.
Yes, but the world's moved on since then. The modern first
world didnt even come close during the great depression.
> Charles Richmond <net...@aquaporin4.com> wrote
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote
>>> ly...@garlic.com Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote
>> But growth for its own sake is the ideology that economists
>> use today. They want to see at least a 3% increase in the
>> GDP (Gross Domestic Product). Go figure...
> Not all economists do. Many see growth as a solver of many problems
Yes.
> that would require some hefty spines of the politicians that have to tackle them.
> A cop-out.
> Growth keeps fiat money in place,
> so the politicians can collect the inherent 3-4%
> float, and the 2-3% tehcnology deflation.
> In reality they can print 5-6% money. As long
> as there is growth to mask the effects.
> No wonder the FED no longer publishes M3 figures (the real
> amount of money, not just cash or checking/credit cards, but
> also the savings and clearing accounts that hold the big volumes).
> Growth also masks the great increases in inequality,
> the power concentration into megacorporations,
> because there is something for everybody.
> Without growth the americans will, in short, make another revolution.
We didnt see that during the great depression when there was no growth.
> After all, they were pretty good at it the last time around.
world didnt even come close during the great depression.
Rod Speed
Jan 22, 2012, 1:27:29 PM1/22/12
to
Bernard Peek wrote
> Peter Flass wrote
> Investors are currently rewarded for generating growth in the enterprises
> they invest in. What would be useful would be a rigorous and objective
> assessment of social benefits, so that they could be rewarded too.
Impossible to quantify, let alone decide how much that should be rewarded.
> Peter Flass wrote
>> Morten Reistad wrote
>>> Without growth the americans will, in short, make another revolution.
>>> After all, they were pretty good at it the last time around.
>> It's possible to have a lot of progress without growth - certainly
>> the tech field shows this. The hard part is to relocate the
>> investment from areas that don't contribute to improved standard of
>> living into areas that do. For example, e can have better houses
>> without having bigger houses.
The Japanese managed to do that last.
>>> Without growth the americans will, in short, make another revolution.
>>> After all, they were pretty good at it the last time around.
>> It's possible to have a lot of progress without growth - certainly
>> the tech field shows this. The hard part is to relocate the
>> investment from areas that don't contribute to improved standard of
>> living into areas that do. For example, e can have better houses
>> without having bigger houses.
> Investors are currently rewarded for generating growth in the enterprises
> they invest in. What would be useful would be a rigorous and objective
> assessment of social benefits, so that they could be rewarded too.
Rod Speed
Jan 22, 2012, 1:29:53 PM1/22/12
to
Walter Bushell wrote
> The average user will not notice.
Dunno, they certainly did with the much more basic problem of browsers.
> Peter Flass <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote
>> Now that you say it, I think that's the issue. All the drones who
>> are getting so excited by having a tablet that runs windoze are
>> probably thinking that they can run orifice on it or something. No
>> doubt M$ will have something that interoperates with outlook, but
>> even without the difference in UI, a lot of people will probably not
>> get what they expect.
> A version of Office that does not do all the stuff Office does. Slimed
> down versions of the components so, some documents will not work
> even word processing (Microsoft has tried to make Word also a page
> layout and book writing program) and especially spreadsheets.
Cant see why those should be impossible to do on a tablet.
>> Now that you say it, I think that's the issue. All the drones who
>> are getting so excited by having a tablet that runs windoze are
>> probably thinking that they can run orifice on it or something. No
>> doubt M$ will have something that interoperates with outlook, but
>> even without the difference in UI, a lot of people will probably not
>> get what they expect.
> A version of Office that does not do all the stuff Office does. Slimed
> down versions of the components so, some documents will not work
> even word processing (Microsoft has tried to make Word also a page
> layout and book writing program) and especially spreadsheets.
> The average user will not notice.
Dan Espen
Jan 22, 2012, 1:30:28 PM1/22/12
to
Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@npsl1.com> writes:
> On 22 Jan 2012 16:21:01 GMT, Stan Barr <pla...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>>On 21 Jan 2012 22:31:55 GMT, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2012-01-21, Charles Richmond <net...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I see it like "Star Trek: TNG": they had little tablets to pass around
>>>> information and for reading books. They had little fold-down (lap top sort
>>>> of) computers on their desk to do the heavy-duty work... and also for
>>>> communication with other ships and star fleet. There is room for all of
>>>> these things in the world... but it's true that the tablets *will* cut into
>>>> regular computer sales in a big way.
>>>
>>> What ticks me off is the migration of tablet/phone user interfaces onto
>>> "regular" computers. Full size UIs made no sense on a phone, and phone
>>> UIs make no sense on a desktop monitor.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Yeah. When Ubuntu switched to its Unity interface I rapidly went back
>>to Gnome. And when Gnome made a mess out of Gnome3 I switched to XFCE
>>which I really like.
>
> How do you cope with switching so often? I would hate it, come to
> think about I did hate it!
Switch? No way.
> On 22 Jan 2012 16:21:01 GMT, Stan Barr <pla...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>>On 21 Jan 2012 22:31:55 GMT, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2012-01-21, Charles Richmond <net...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I see it like "Star Trek: TNG": they had little tablets to pass around
>>>> information and for reading books. They had little fold-down (lap top sort
>>>> of) computers on their desk to do the heavy-duty work... and also for
>>>> communication with other ships and star fleet. There is room for all of
>>>> these things in the world... but it's true that the tablets *will* cut into
>>>> regular computer sales in a big way.
>>>
>>> What ticks me off is the migration of tablet/phone user interfaces onto
>>> "regular" computers. Full size UIs made no sense on a phone, and phone
>>> UIs make no sense on a desktop monitor.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Yeah. When Ubuntu switched to its Unity interface I rapidly went back
>>to Gnome. And when Gnome made a mess out of Gnome3 I switched to XFCE
>>which I really like.
>
> How do you cope with switching so often? I would hate it, come to
> think about I did hate it!
Been using Fvwm since I changed from cvtwm on a Sparc 1.
--
Dan Espen
Message has been deleted
Stan Barr
Jan 22, 2012, 2:11:39 PM1/22/12
to
On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 16:44:21 +0000, Stephen Wolstenholme
<st...@npsl1.com> wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2012 16:21:01 GMT, Stan Barr <pla...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>>On 21 Jan 2012 22:31:55 GMT, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2012-01-21, Charles Richmond <net...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I see it like "Star Trek: TNG": they had little tablets to pass around
>>>> information and for reading books. They had little fold-down (lap top
sort
>>>> of) computers on their desk to do the heavy-duty work... and also for
>>>> communication with other ships and star fleet. There is room for all of
>>>> these things in the world... but it's true that the tablets *will* cut
into
>>>> regular computer sales in a big way.
>>>
>>> What ticks me off is the migration of tablet/phone user interfaces onto
>>> "regular" computers. Full size UIs made no sense on a phone, and phone
>>> UIs make no sense on a desktop monitor.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Yeah. When Ubuntu switched to its Unity interface I rapidly went back
>>to Gnome. And when Gnome made a mess out of Gnome3 I switched to XFCE
>>which I really like.
>
> How do you cope with switching so often? I would hate it, come to
> think about I did hate it!
I think in the last 20 years I've tried almost avery window
<st...@npsl1.com> wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2012 16:21:01 GMT, Stan Barr <pla...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>>On 21 Jan 2012 22:31:55 GMT, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2012-01-21, Charles Richmond <net...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I see it like "Star Trek: TNG": they had little tablets to pass around
>>>> information and for reading books. They had little fold-down (lap top
sort
>>>> of) computers on their desk to do the heavy-duty work... and also for
>>>> communication with other ships and star fleet. There is room for all of
>>>> these things in the world... but it's true that the tablets *will* cut
into
>>>> regular computer sales in a big way.
>>>
>>> What ticks me off is the migration of tablet/phone user interfaces onto
>>> "regular" computers. Full size UIs made no sense on a phone, and phone
>>> UIs make no sense on a desktop monitor.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Yeah. When Ubuntu switched to its Unity interface I rapidly went back
>>to Gnome. And when Gnome made a mess out of Gnome3 I switched to XFCE
>>which I really like.
>
> How do you cope with switching so often? I would hate it, come to
> think about I did hate it!
management system around, unix and others :-) XFCE is quite nice, but
I still prefer old MacOS, sadly that's well obsolete now.
I also use Ion on one machine - a tiled and text-based system with
added graphics, confirmed text users shoud take a look.
Still have a pure text unix system too...
Message has been deleted
Jorgen Grahn
Jan 22, 2012, 3:09:46 PM1/22/12
to
On Sun, 2012-01-22, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2012 16:21:01 GMT, Stan Barr <pla...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
...
> On 22 Jan 2012 16:21:01 GMT, Stan Barr <pla...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>>Yeah. When Ubuntu switched to its Unity interface I rapidly went back
>>to Gnome. And when Gnome made a mess out of Gnome3 I switched to XFCE
>>which I really like.
>
> How do you cope with switching so often? I would hate it, come to
> think about I did hate it!
Once he has gone Xfce (which is a simple X11 window manager, for those
>>to Gnome. And when Gnome made a mess out of Gnome3 I switched to XFCE
>>which I really like.
>
> How do you cope with switching so often? I would hate it, come to
> think about I did hate it!
who might not know) he won't have to switch again, unless someone
manages to kill the entire X window system. It has been around since
the 1990s, and is not AFAIK plagued by constant UI redesigns.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Jorgen Grahn
Jan 22, 2012, 3:23:42 PM1/22/12
to
On Fri, 2012-01-20, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> In article <m3wr8mw...@garlic.com>, ly...@garlic.com
> (Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes:
>
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>> 7828
>>
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
>> the same as heart stop beating.
>
> Yes, that is a bit of journalistic dishonesty, however appropriate
> the connotation may be to those who believe that lack of constant
> growth is the same as death. I, on the other hand, cherish the
> words of environmentalist Edward Abbey: "Growth for the sake of
> growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
I thought that quote was from a Theodore Sturgeon story (Occam's
scalpel?) but of course he would have nicked it ...
This was headline news in .se a week ago ...
A study showed that ~550,000 computers are thrown away in .se
every year. (That's one per 20 citizens.) Companies throw them away,
mostly.
"You can buy a three year old car, worn. You can't buy a three year
old computer, which would be as good as new, except maybe for the
battery."
> In article <m3wr8mw...@garlic.com>, ly...@garlic.com
> (Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes:
>
>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>>
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/1
>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>> 7828
>>
>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
>> the same as heart stop beating.
>
> Yes, that is a bit of journalistic dishonesty, however appropriate
> the connotation may be to those who believe that lack of constant
> growth is the same as death. I, on the other hand, cherish the
> words of environmentalist Edward Abbey: "Growth for the sake of
> growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
I thought that quote was from a Theodore Sturgeon story (Occam's
scalpel?) but of course he would have nicked it ...
This was headline news in .se a week ago ...
A study showed that ~550,000 computers are thrown away in .se
every year. (That's one per 20 citizens.) Companies throw them away,
mostly.
"You can buy a three year old car, worn. You can't buy a three year
old computer, which would be as good as new, except maybe for the
battery."
Walter Bushell
Jan 22, 2012, 5:42:12 PM1/22/12
to
In article <9o35bb...@mid.individual.net>,
The old MacOs was difficult to develop for. One had to keep track of
which system calls could move memory and keep returning control to the
exec yourself, to allow other programs and even user interaction to run.
Brutal.
The old MacOs was difficult to develop for. One had to keep track of
which system calls could move memory and keep returning control to the
exec yourself, to allow other programs and even user interaction to run.
Brutal.
Message has been deleted
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Jan 22, 2012, 6:27:38 PM1/22/12
to
On Jan 20, 2:00 pm, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> That's why the growth is in smartphones and tablets. Given a reasonable
> computer and a finite amount of money, people will probably want to
> spend it on a new toy rather than replacing an old one with something
> only marginally better.
What is the physical lifespan of both desktop and laptop computers?
By "lifespan" I mean how long will the computer run before a key
component fails?
I have an old HP which physically was running but it's OS was obsolete
and the machine didn't have the horsepower to handle an upgrade.
> That's why the growth is in smartphones and tablets. Given a reasonable
> computer and a finite amount of money, people will probably want to
> spend it on a new toy rather than replacing an old one with something
> only marginally better.
What is the physical lifespan of both desktop and laptop computers?
By "lifespan" I mean how long will the computer run before a key
component fails?
I have an old HP which physically was running but it's OS was obsolete
and the machine didn't have the horsepower to handle an upgrade.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Rod Speed
Jan 22, 2012, 7:15:15 PM1/22/12
to
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote
I just replaced the PVR which used to run on an obsolete 1GHz
system that used to be the main system quite a while ago now.
Got sick of the limitations, not even USB2, couldnt take the new 4 channel
video capture card, or the 2TB SATA drives that I use for overflow.
While I can certainly handle all of those limitations with selective upgrades,
it didnt cost much more to have a new machine assembled from cheap
components that leaves it for dead performance wise and I dont even
need to use the separate main machine anymore, that new PVR does it all.
> By "lifespan" I mean how long will the computer run before a key component fails?
I havent had to replace a computer for that reason for a long time now, decades.
But I certainly wouldnt be silly enough to still be using the 286 that still works fine.
> Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote
>> That's why the growth is in smartphones and tablets. Given
>> a reasonable computer and a finite amount of money, people
>> will probably want to spend it on a new toy rather than
>> replacing an old one with something only marginally better.
> What is the physical lifespan of both desktop and laptop computers?
Thats rarely why they get replaced now.
>> That's why the growth is in smartphones and tablets. Given
>> a reasonable computer and a finite amount of money, people
>> will probably want to spend it on a new toy rather than
>> replacing an old one with something only marginally better.
> What is the physical lifespan of both desktop and laptop computers?
I just replaced the PVR which used to run on an obsolete 1GHz
system that used to be the main system quite a while ago now.
Got sick of the limitations, not even USB2, couldnt take the new 4 channel
video capture card, or the 2TB SATA drives that I use for overflow.
While I can certainly handle all of those limitations with selective upgrades,
it didnt cost much more to have a new machine assembled from cheap
components that leaves it for dead performance wise and I dont even
need to use the separate main machine anymore, that new PVR does it all.
> By "lifespan" I mean how long will the computer run before a key component fails?
But I certainly wouldnt be silly enough to still be using the 286 that still works fine.
Joe Pfeiffer
Jan 22, 2012, 8:23:37 PM1/22/12
to
Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> writes:
> On Sun, 2012-01-22, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
>> On 22 Jan 2012 16:21:01 GMT, Stan Barr <pla...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> ...
>>>Yeah. When Ubuntu switched to its Unity interface I rapidly went back
>>>to Gnome. And when Gnome made a mess out of Gnome3 I switched to XFCE
>>>which I really like.
>>
>> How do you cope with switching so often? I would hate it, come to
>> think about I did hate it!
>
> Once he has gone Xfce (which is a simple X11 window manager, for those
> who might not know) he won't have to switch again, unless someone
> manages to kill the entire X window system. It has been around since
> the 1990s, and is not AFAIK plagued by constant UI redesigns.
No, xfce is a full desktop environment, including the various integrated
> On Sun, 2012-01-22, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
>> On 22 Jan 2012 16:21:01 GMT, Stan Barr <pla...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> ...
>>>Yeah. When Ubuntu switched to its Unity interface I rapidly went back
>>>to Gnome. And when Gnome made a mess out of Gnome3 I switched to XFCE
>>>which I really like.
>>
>> How do you cope with switching so often? I would hate it, come to
>> think about I did hate it!
>
> Once he has gone Xfce (which is a simple X11 window manager, for those
> who might not know) he won't have to switch again, unless someone
> manages to kill the entire X window system. It has been around since
> the 1990s, and is not AFAIK plagued by constant UI redesigns.
preferences and dbus support one would expect (or possibly dread) on a
"modern" system. The standard window manager used with xfce is xfwm.
I've been using xfce since gnome3 went off a cliff, and like it a lot.
It doesn't make the integrated desktop stuff as obtrusive and obnoxious
as the unity, gnome, or kde (and so it's quite possible to not realize
it's more than a window manager. I regard this as a good thing).
The only thing that irritates me about it is that focus-follows-mouse
has an annoying bug: under circumstances that seem close enough to
random that I can't track it down, it will find itself with no window
having focus. The only way I've been able to get focus back is
<alt>-F7, which grabs a window to move it. Once I stop the move on the
window, I've got normal focus back.
Message has been deleted
Bernd Felsche
Jan 22, 2012, 8:54:31 PM1/22/12
to
PC-grade, consumer desktops can live 10+ years. With abuse, less
than two years. Which is which corporations cycle their desktop
machines every 2 years. It's not costly-enough for them to dispose
instead of taking measures to protect and repair.
After 10 years, the probability of component failure is outweighed
by the probability that the user's "requirements" will exceed the
machine's capacity; in terms of CPU power and storage capacity.
Paradoxically, those requirements don't change nearly so much in a
larger, corporate environment as they do for the private/home user.
Larger organizations tend to store stuff on servers; and many
provide virtual desktops to compute capacity on servers.
Laptops can last 6+ years if handled with appropriate care,
requiring perhaps one replacement battery and HDD. Less than a year
if abused through lack of care (e.g. left to cook in a car parked in
the summer sun). Which is why corporations tend to cycle them on a
12 to 18-month basis.
>By "lifespan" I mean how long will the computer run before a key
>component fails?
"Key component" is a bit fuzzy. For many, any failure at all is that
of a key component. Some companies prefer to replace an entire
3-year-old PC (@$500+) instead of just its PSU (@$50) because they
don't (perceive that they) have the technical means to do the
replacement themselves at no real cost. Nor do they wish to acquire
such a capacity because it's not a core activity. And the
out-housed^Wsourced IT support will make more profit by replacement
than repair.
>I have an old HP which physically was running but it's OS was obsolete
>and the machine didn't have the horsepower to handle an upgrade.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \ and postings | --HL Mencken
than two years. Which is which corporations cycle their desktop
machines every 2 years. It's not costly-enough for them to dispose
instead of taking measures to protect and repair.
After 10 years, the probability of component failure is outweighed
by the probability that the user's "requirements" will exceed the
machine's capacity; in terms of CPU power and storage capacity.
Paradoxically, those requirements don't change nearly so much in a
larger, corporate environment as they do for the private/home user.
Larger organizations tend to store stuff on servers; and many
provide virtual desktops to compute capacity on servers.
Laptops can last 6+ years if handled with appropriate care,
requiring perhaps one replacement battery and HDD. Less than a year
if abused through lack of care (e.g. left to cook in a car parked in
the summer sun). Which is why corporations tend to cycle them on a
12 to 18-month basis.
>By "lifespan" I mean how long will the computer run before a key
>component fails?
of a key component. Some companies prefer to replace an entire
3-year-old PC (@$500+) instead of just its PSU (@$50) because they
don't (perceive that they) have the technical means to do the
replacement themselves at no real cost. Nor do they wish to acquire
such a capacity because it's not a core activity. And the
out-housed^Wsourced IT support will make more profit by replacement
than repair.
>I have an old HP which physically was running but it's OS was obsolete
>and the machine didn't have the horsepower to handle an upgrade.
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \ and postings | --HL Mencken
Peter Flass
Jan 22, 2012, 10:45:57 PM1/22/12
to
be? Probably at least 15 years, but I have no idea. I had to replace
the battery, but that's it. I'd do more with it but it's a slimline
case with not much room for expansion.
The machine I'm typing on is a Dell running XP, probably ten years old,
but I had to replace the hard drive on it.
Fortunately, I *do* have a year-old Linux box to get real work done.
Peter Flass
Jan 22, 2012, 10:47:32 PM1/22/12
to
On 1/22/2012 6:44 PM, Morten Reistad wrote:
> In article<proto-3CA6A2....@news.panix.com>,
> Walter Bushell<pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article<jfh2ts$esu$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> not notice.
>
> Until he receives one of those documents. Like a statement from a
> bank I deal with, requires all the bells and whistles from word
> to be present to display at all.
That's a pet gripe of mine. Use the minimal amount of features to get
your document out, don't throw in everything just because it's there.
The same applies to supposedly "portable" Acrobat files too.
>
> The average user will just say "does not work", and the finger
> pointing will start.
>
> -- mrr
> In article<proto-3CA6A2....@news.panix.com>,
> Walter Bushell<pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article<jfh2ts$esu$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Peter Flass<Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Now that you say it, I think that's the issue. All the drones who are
>>> getting so excited by having a tablet that runs windoze are probably
>>> thinking that they can run orifice on it or something. No doubt M$ will
>>> have something that interoperates with outlook, but even without the
>>> difference in UI, a lot of people will probably not get what they expect.
>>
>> A version of Office that does not do all the stuff Office does. Slimed
>> down versions of the components so, some documents will not work even
>> word processing (Microsoft has tried to make Word also a page layout and
>> book writing program) and especially spreadsheets. The average user will
>>
>>> Now that you say it, I think that's the issue. All the drones who are
>>> getting so excited by having a tablet that runs windoze are probably
>>> thinking that they can run orifice on it or something. No doubt M$ will
>>> have something that interoperates with outlook, but even without the
>>> difference in UI, a lot of people will probably not get what they expect.
>>
>> A version of Office that does not do all the stuff Office does. Slimed
>> down versions of the components so, some documents will not work even
>> word processing (Microsoft has tried to make Word also a page layout and
>> not notice.
>
> Until he receives one of those documents. Like a statement from a
> bank I deal with, requires all the bells and whistles from word
> to be present to display at all.
That's a pet gripe of mine. Use the minimal amount of features to get
your document out, don't throw in everything just because it's there.
The same applies to supposedly "portable" Acrobat files too.
>
> The average user will just say "does not work", and the finger
> pointing will start.
>
> -- mrr
William Hamblen
Jan 22, 2012, 11:09:57 PM1/22/12
to
The laptop still works if I plug in a display, but that sort of defeats
the purpose of having a portable computer. I've had 20 year old desktops
that still worked. Some service bureau kept a Univac II going for an
uncannily long time. Not a desktop, but probably some sort of record for
a machine that wasn't a museum display, but a money earning proposition.
Bud
William Hamblen
Jan 22, 2012, 11:09:57 PM1/22/12
to
On 2012-01-23, Bernd Felsche <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote:
> PC-grade, consumer desktops can live 10+ years. With abuse, less
> than two years. Which is which corporations cycle their desktop
> machines every 2 years. It's not costly-enough for them to dispose
> instead of taking measures to protect and repair.
At a former place of employment we kept them going longer than that
> PC-grade, consumer desktops can live 10+ years. With abuse, less
> than two years. Which is which corporations cycle their desktop
> machines every 2 years. It's not costly-enough for them to dispose
> instead of taking measures to protect and repair.
(3 years, later 4 years). One of the things that drives the replacement
cycle is that IT departments like to have every machine the same because
it simplifies support. After a short while you can't get replacements
any more for the machines that crap out, get dropped, get coffee spilled
on them, etc.
Bud
Stephen Wolstenholme
Jan 23, 2012, 6:29:40 AM1/23/12
to
On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:27:38 -0800 (PST), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>On Jan 20, 2:00 pm, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> That's why the growth is in smartphones and tablets. Given a reasonable
>> computer and a finite amount of money, people will probably want to
>> spend it on a new toy rather than replacing an old one with something
>> only marginally better.
>
>What is the physical lifespan of both desktop and laptop computers?
>By "lifespan" I mean how long will the computer run before a key
>component fails?
>
Obviously life span varies a lot. Some manufacturers produce desktops
>On Jan 20, 2:00 pm, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> That's why the growth is in smartphones and tablets. Given a reasonable
>> computer and a finite amount of money, people will probably want to
>> spend it on a new toy rather than replacing an old one with something
>> only marginally better.
>
>What is the physical lifespan of both desktop and laptop computers?
>By "lifespan" I mean how long will the computer run before a key
>component fails?
>
that just keep working. IME the power supply is the "component" that
fails first.
Steve
--
Neural network software applications, help and support.
Neural Network Software. http://www.npsl1.com
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. http://www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. http://www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. http://www.justnn.com
Stephen Wolstenholme
Jan 23, 2012, 6:37:09 AM1/23/12
to
GreyMaus
Jan 23, 2012, 7:53:36 AM1/23/12
to
On 2012-01-22, Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-01-20, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> In article <m3wr8mw...@garlic.com>, ly...@garlic.com
>> (Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes:
>>
>>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>>>
>>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/1
>>> 7828
>>>
>>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
>>> the same as heart stop beating.
>>
>> Yes, that is a bit of journalistic dishonesty, however appropriate
>> the connotation may be to those who believe that lack of constant
>> growth is the same as death. I, on the other hand, cherish the
>> words of environmentalist Edward Abbey: "Growth for the sake of
>> growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
>
> I thought that quote was from a Theodore Sturgeon story (Occam's
> scalpel?) but of course he would have nicked it ...
>
> This was headline news in .se a week ago ...
>
> A study showed that ~550,000 computers are thrown away in .se
> every year. (That's one per 20 citizens.) Companies throw them away,
> mostly.
From here, anyway, Many are exported to the third world, where
> On Fri, 2012-01-20, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> In article <m3wr8mw...@garlic.com>, ly...@garlic.com
>> (Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes:
>>
>>> graph with unit shipped/yr
>>>
>>> The PC industry is heading for collapse
>>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/the-pc-industry-is-heading-for-collapse/1
>>> 7828
>>>
>>> the reference to flat-lining is with respect to growth which isn't quite
>>> the same as heart stop beating.
>>
>> Yes, that is a bit of journalistic dishonesty, however appropriate
>> the connotation may be to those who believe that lack of constant
>> growth is the same as death. I, on the other hand, cherish the
>> words of environmentalist Edward Abbey: "Growth for the sake of
>> growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
>
> I thought that quote was from a Theodore Sturgeon story (Occam's
> scalpel?) but of course he would have nicked it ...
>
> This was headline news in .se a week ago ...
>
> A study showed that ~550,000 computers are thrown away in .se
> every year. (That's one per 20 citizens.) Companies throw them away,
> mostly.
recovering parts and data is an industry. There is a place near here where
sometimes old computers are dumped. Its amazing how boring others data is.
>
> "You can buy a three year old car, worn. You can't buy a three year
> old computer, which would be as good as new, except maybe for the
> battery."
>
> /Jorgen
>
--
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Walter Bushell
Jan 23, 2012, 9:18:54 AM1/23/12
to
In article <slrnjhp6ka.5...@gmaus.org>,
viable for finding them. I have a friend who had 5 machines that were
recycled by dumpster diving.
GreyMaus <grey...@mail.com> wrote:
> From here, anyway, Many are exported to the third world, where
> recovering parts and data is an industry. There is a place near here where
> sometimes old computers are dumped. Its amazing how boring others data is.
But apparently enough are dumped by individuals to make dumpster diving
> From here, anyway, Many are exported to the third world, where
> recovering parts and data is an industry. There is a place near here where
> sometimes old computers are dumped. Its amazing how boring others data is.
viable for finding them. I have a friend who had 5 machines that were
recycled by dumpster diving.
Mike Spencer
Jan 23, 2012, 9:22:38 AM1/23/12
to
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> writes:
> in the early part of the last century there were similar comments about
> both the auto industry and the telephone industry ... that their growth
> was capped by requiring professional operators ... autos requiring
> professional chauffeur/mechanic, and telephone requiring human operator
> to make a call).
In 1967-68 I worked in a foreign/sports car shop in Massachusetts. One
of my fellow mechanics was 80 years old and had worked in that
building most of his life, when it had been the private garage of a
"rich lady".
Working for her, he was the chauffeur and mechanic. When the car
wasn't in use, he repaired, cleaned, polished, tuned it. Every spring
he removed the black winter body, did any maintainance made accessible
thereby and installed the white summer body. Reverse each
fall. During each body's "off" season, Pete carefully cleaned all
over, repaired and painted it . Once or twice a year, the boss would
call and say, "I want to go to Florida tomorrow." Pete would drive
her there straight through over pre-WWII roads. He said the greatest
disappointment of his life was that when she died, he had fallen short
by only a few thousand of miles of having driven that car 1 million
miles.
That career had paid well enough that Pete owned his own house, had
raised a faimily and drove a Cadillac as his personal car.
How things have changed, eh?
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
GreyMaus
Jan 23, 2012, 9:55:12 AM1/23/12
to
leaving engines to `cure' after making, and before the next stage. The big
change since was cutting down the stages and speeding them up in
manufacturing.
That was when words like 'Cadillac' and `Rolls Royce' meant something.
What happened since was `ordinary peoples cars' were produced far better, and
relatively cheaply.
--
GreyMaus
Dan Espen
Jan 23, 2012, 10:26:57 AM1/23/12
to
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Jan 20, 2:00 pm, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> That's why the growth is in smartphones and tablets. Given a reasonable
>> computer and a finite amount of money, people will probably want to
>> spend it on a new toy rather than replacing an old one with something
>> only marginally better.
>
> What is the physical lifespan of both desktop and laptop computers?
> By "lifespan" I mean how long will the computer run before a key
> component fails?
I have an IBM PC XT in the attic that I dragged out about 10
> On Jan 20, 2:00 pm, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> That's why the growth is in smartphones and tablets. Given a reasonable
>> computer and a finite amount of money, people will probably want to
>> spend it on a new toy rather than replacing an old one with something
>> only marginally better.
>
> What is the physical lifespan of both desktop and laptop computers?
> By "lifespan" I mean how long will the computer run before a key
> component fails?
years ago and let someone use for a few days. It's back in the
attic now and I assume it's still working.
--
Dan Espen
Nick Spalding
Jan 23, 2012, 10:37:12 AM1/23/12
to
Dan Espen wrote, in <ichazm8...@home.home>
on Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:26:57 -0500:
I have two 1987 Amstrad 1512s in the attic, both working when last
tried about 10 years back, a 1992 486DX and a 1998 P2 both of which
have dodgy disks. There's also a BBC of unknown vintage which someone
gave me that worked when it was put away.
--
Nick Spalding
on Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:26:57 -0500:
tried about 10 years back, a 1992 486DX and a 1998 P2 both of which
have dodgy disks. There's also a BBC of unknown vintage which someone
gave me that worked when it was put away.
--
Nick Spalding
Stan Barr
Jan 23, 2012, 11:19:38 AM1/23/12
to
On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:42:12 -0500, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <9o35bb...@mid.individual.net>,
> Stan Barr <pla...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>> I still prefer old MacOS, sadly that's well obsolete now.
>
> The old MacOs was difficult to develop for. One had to keep track of
> which system calls could move memory and keep returning control to the
> exec yourself, to allow other programs and even user interaction to run.
>
> Brutal.
>
Absolutely, but for a _user_ it was the best, IMHO. For the past couple
> In article <9o35bb...@mid.individual.net>,
> Stan Barr <pla...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>> I still prefer old MacOS, sadly that's well obsolete now.
>
> The old MacOs was difficult to develop for. One had to keep track of
> which system calls could move memory and keep returning control to the
> exec yourself, to allow other programs and even user interaction to run.
>
> Brutal.
>
of decades I've watched new users getting to grips with computers of
various flavours and they definitely learned much quicker on a Mac.
Even my 5-year-old nephew, not the sharpest knife in the box, soon
learned to start his favourite games and open a simple drawing program.
I still keep a MacOS8 computer around to remind me.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr plan.b .at. dsl .dot. pipex .dot. com
The future was never like this!
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