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1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid
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hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Apr 13, 2019, 3:12:58 PM4/13/19
to
Series of articles on new technology from 1956, like
atomic energy. One article is on Remington Rand's
plans for the future (lower right). covers several
pages, scroll back and fwd to see them all.
https://books.google.com/books?id=vQAzAAAAIBAJ&lpg=PA121&dq=remington%20rand&pg=PA121#v=onepage&q=remington%20rand&f=false
Back then they talked about the engineer shortage, the
need for better math education in schools, and how to inspire
more people to study engineering.
There is one article on women, saying women can learn and
perform science and engineering just as well as men.
But I wonder how many of the tech schools would accept a girl
as an sci/eng student, and then how many big employers
would hire one in 1956. As mentioned, Bitsavers had an
article about banking DP in the 1960s, and the writer,
bank president, was very clear that men and women would
have different jobs in the industry.
I don't think Bell Telephone hired women for engineers
until the mid 1960s.
Western Union seemed to be more open minded. They had
both men and women working together as telegraph
operators, and women managing offices.
atomic energy. One article is on Remington Rand's
plans for the future (lower right). covers several
pages, scroll back and fwd to see them all.
https://books.google.com/books?id=vQAzAAAAIBAJ&lpg=PA121&dq=remington%20rand&pg=PA121#v=onepage&q=remington%20rand&f=false
Back then they talked about the engineer shortage, the
need for better math education in schools, and how to inspire
more people to study engineering.
There is one article on women, saying women can learn and
perform science and engineering just as well as men.
But I wonder how many of the tech schools would accept a girl
as an sci/eng student, and then how many big employers
would hire one in 1956. As mentioned, Bitsavers had an
article about banking DP in the 1960s, and the writer,
bank president, was very clear that men and women would
have different jobs in the industry.
I don't think Bell Telephone hired women for engineers
until the mid 1960s.
Western Union seemed to be more open minded. They had
both men and women working together as telegraph
operators, and women managing offices.
Charlie Gibbs
Apr 14, 2019, 12:41:30 AM4/14/19
to
had large science and engineering departments, I somewhere
read that they had exactly one female engineering student.
Maybe women couldn't (or wouldn't) drink that much beer...
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ Fight low-contrast text in web pages! http://contrastrebellion.com
J. Clarke
Apr 14, 2019, 3:15:33 AM4/14/19
to
On 14 Apr 2019 04:41:01 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:
I remember one (mechanical engineering major at Georgia Tech) who
could chug not one but two bottles without taking a breath. She was
exceptional in a lot of ways though.
wrote:
could chug not one but two bottles without taking a breath. She was
exceptional in a lot of ways though.
Clark G
Apr 15, 2019, 10:33:23 AM4/15/19
to
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote in
news:q8udk...@news2.newsguy.com:
There were quite a number of woman in my 1st year Engineering class at
UBC in 1979. But the next year in my Electrical Engineering cohort of
about 90 there were exactly 2 women.
--
Clark G
* take away the em's to reply
news:q8udk...@news2.newsguy.com:
UBC in 1979. But the next year in my Electrical Engineering cohort of
about 90 there were exactly 2 women.
--
Clark G
* take away the em's to reply
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Apr 15, 2019, 5:34:11 PM4/15/19
to
On Sunday, April 14, 2019 at 12:41:30 AM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> When I went to the University of B.C. (1968-1971), which
> had large science and engineering departments, I somewhere
> read that they had exactly one female engineering student.
At my sci/tech university at about the same time, there
> When I went to the University of B.C. (1968-1971), which
> had large science and engineering departments, I somewhere
> read that they had exactly one female engineering student.
were some women science majors (e.g. math, chemistry),
but very few engineering majors.
To my surprise, some of the women students told me they
were there over the objection of their families. Their
fathers told them eng/sci was no place for a girl.
Indeed, this attitude continued through the 1970s.
> Maybe women couldn't (or wouldn't) drink that much beer...
but beer flowed very freely. Go into a dorm or frathouse
and a beer will end up in your hand very fast.
Mike Spencer
Apr 16, 2019, 12:37:26 AM4/16/19
to
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Sunday, April 14, 2019 at 12:41:30 AM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> When I went to the University of B.C. (1968-1971), which
>> had large science and engineering departments, I somewhere
>> read that they had exactly one female engineering student.
no engineering ones that I knew of.
> At my sci/tech university at about the same time, there
> were some women science majors (e.g. math, chemistry),
> but very few engineering majors.
>
> To my surprise, some of the women students told me they
> were there over the objection of their families. Their
> fathers told them eng/sci was no place for a girl.
> Indeed, this attitude continued through the 1970s.
>
>> Maybe women couldn't (or wouldn't) drink that much beer...
told the class that if he taught them to smoke like a lady and drink
like a man, his responsibility would be fulfilled. I don't recall any
such condescension from UMass profs.
> It wasn't exactly a big party school like some colleges,
> but beer flowed very freely. Go into a dorm or frathouse
> and a beer will end up in your hand very fast.
merged with Harvard. Dunno about Smith.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
JimP
Apr 16, 2019, 11:09:03 AM4/16/19
to
On 16 Apr 2019 01:36:56 -0300, Mike Spencer
questioned why a woman was taking calculus. I don't remember her
major, but she was one of the few 4.0 out of 4.0 students. He said
something about her just going to get married and have kids.
Someone said something he didn't like along the lines of 'why are you
such an idiot ?'. A guy actually. The professor was not amused. And
neither was the guy who said that.
--
Jim
<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> On Sunday, April 14, 2019 at 12:41:30 AM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> When I went to the University of B.C. (1968-1971), which
>>> had large science and engineering departments, I somewhere
>>> read that they had exactly one female engineering student.
>
>Circa 1964, UMass had female chem and math majors (and grad students),
>no engineering ones that I knew of.
I remember a math professor at a community college in Mississippi that
>
>hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> On Sunday, April 14, 2019 at 12:41:30 AM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> When I went to the University of B.C. (1968-1971), which
>>> had large science and engineering departments, I somewhere
>>> read that they had exactly one female engineering student.
>
>Circa 1964, UMass had female chem and math majors (and grad students),
>no engineering ones that I knew of.
questioned why a woman was taking calculus. I don't remember her
major, but she was one of the few 4.0 out of 4.0 students. He said
something about her just going to get married and have kids.
Someone said something he didn't like along the lines of 'why are you
such an idiot ?'. A guy actually. The professor was not amused. And
neither was the guy who said that.
--
Jim
Mike Spencer
Apr 16, 2019, 4:33:43 PM4/16/19
to
JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
> I remember a math professor at a community college in Mississippi that
> questioned why a woman was taking calculus. I don't remember her
> major, but she was one of the few 4.0 out of 4.0 students. He said
> something about her just going to get married and have kids.
probably a reflection on the psychological or emotional status of the
speaker. AFAIK, the majority of people who take 3 or 4 semesters of
university-level calculus -- typically required as part of their
chosen major -- never have occasion to use it. "Why are you taking
calculus? You're just going to become a biochemist/systems
analyst/brain surgeon and have kids."
J. Clarke
Apr 16, 2019, 5:35:34 PM4/16/19
to
On 16 Apr 2019 01:36:56 -0300, Mike Spencer
<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
confusing), Smith will admit people transgender people with penises
who identify as female, but will not admit people with vaginas who
identify as male. People with penises who identify as male are right
out.
Note that I worked for a while with a recent Smith graduate--IMO their
computer science program had not done her any favors.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Apr 16, 2019, 6:13:01 PM4/16/19
to
On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 11:09:03 AM UTC-4, JimP wrote:
> I remember a math professor at a community college in Mississippi that
> questioned why a woman was taking calculus. I don't remember her
> major, but she was one of the few 4.0 out of 4.0 students. He said
> something about her just going to get married and have kids.
It is surprising a math prof would say such a stupid thing, even
> I remember a math professor at a community college in Mississippi that
> questioned why a woman was taking calculus. I don't remember her
> major, but she was one of the few 4.0 out of 4.0 students. He said
> something about her just going to get married and have kids.
years ago, since math was one field that always had women in it.
As we all know, women were the first computer programmers, and
women served as the "computers" in industry before machines.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Apr 16, 2019, 6:19:06 PM4/16/19
to
On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:33:43 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
> Yeah, this too-common take on "why take calculus" is interesting and
> probably a reflection on the psychological or emotional status of the
> speaker. AFAIK, the majority of people who take 3 or 4 semesters of
> university-level calculus -- typically required as part of their
> chosen major -- never have occasion to use it. "Why are you taking
> calculus? You're just going to become a biochemist/systems
> analyst/brain surgeon and have kids."
There were times when profs would question attendance in their
> Yeah, this too-common take on "why take calculus" is interesting and
> probably a reflection on the psychological or emotional status of the
> speaker. AFAIK, the majority of people who take 3 or 4 semesters of
> university-level calculus -- typically required as part of their
> chosen major -- never have occasion to use it. "Why are you taking
> calculus? You're just going to become a biochemist/systems
> analyst/brain surgeon and have kids."
class, and correctly so.
For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
going on to study sci/tech, not others. My college tax prof said
it was only useful for accounting majors, not others.
Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
students. Both mandates were stupid.
I've talked to many compsci people who had to take calculus in
college and never used it in their entire career. Other majors
who took Fortran never used it or even the principles of
programming in their entire career. Fortran was a crappy
way to introduce the fundamentals of computers to people.
BASIC would've been a lot better, along with time spent
on describing basic database and system analysis concepts.
NOT teaching how to do them, just describing them in general,
such as the idea of categorizing things.
J. Clarke
Apr 16, 2019, 7:15:21 PM4/16/19
to
surprise, this requires calculus. Not particularly heavy calculus at
this point but looking forward there are going to be differential
equations a couple of exams down the pike.
Scott Lurndal
Apr 16, 2019, 7:19:49 PM4/16/19
to
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:33:43 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> Yeah, this too-common take on "why take calculus" is interesting and
>> probably a reflection on the psychological or emotional status of the
>> speaker. AFAIK, the majority of people who take 3 or 4 semesters of
>> university-level calculus -- typically required as part of their
>> chosen major -- never have occasion to use it. "Why are you taking
>> calculus? You're just going to become a biochemist/systems
>> analyst/brain surgeon and have kids."
>
>There were times when profs would question attendance in their
>class, and correctly so.
>
>For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
>going on to study sci/tech, not others.
Which is totally bogus. Even a carpenter uses trig, even if he doesn't
>On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:33:43 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> Yeah, this too-common take on "why take calculus" is interesting and
>> probably a reflection on the psychological or emotional status of the
>> speaker. AFAIK, the majority of people who take 3 or 4 semesters of
>> university-level calculus -- typically required as part of their
>> chosen major -- never have occasion to use it. "Why are you taking
>> calculus? You're just going to become a biochemist/systems
>> analyst/brain surgeon and have kids."
>
>There were times when profs would question attendance in their
>class, and correctly so.
>
>For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
>going on to study sci/tech, not others.
realize it.
Peter Flass
Apr 16, 2019, 7:55:19 PM4/16/19
to
J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If I understand the policy correctly (and I admit that I find it
> confusing), Smith will admit people transgender people with penises
> who identify as female, but will not admit people with vaginas who
> identify as male. People with penises who identify as male are right
> out.
I’m a middle-class person who identifies as rich. Does this get me a
>
> If I understand the policy correctly (and I admit that I find it
> confusing), Smith will admit people transgender people with penises
> who identify as female, but will not admit people with vaginas who
> identify as male. People with penises who identify as male are right
> out.
private island?
--
Pete
Peter Flass
Apr 16, 2019, 7:55:20 PM4/16/19
to
--
Pete
Quadibloc
Apr 16, 2019, 8:06:36 PM4/16/19
to
On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:19:06 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> BASIC would've been a lot better,
Did they even _have_ BASIC back then? It didn't take long for versions to appear
> BASIC would've been a lot better,
on the PDP-8 and certain other computers; IBM had CALL/360 BASIC as well fairly
early on, but that was an expensive program product, and rightly many colleges
would have felt the money better spent on APL.
John Savard
J. Clarke
Apr 16, 2019, 9:02:16 PM4/16/19
to
pregnant somebody's lawyers are going to eat them for breakfast.
Chris Barts
Apr 17, 2019, 5:08:04 AM4/17/19
to
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:33:43 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> Yeah, this too-common take on "why take calculus" is interesting and
>> probably a reflection on the psychological or emotional status of the
>> speaker. AFAIK, the majority of people who take 3 or 4 semesters of
>> university-level calculus -- typically required as part of their
>> chosen major -- never have occasion to use it. "Why are you taking
>> calculus? You're just going to become a biochemist/systems
>> analyst/brain surgeon and have kids."
>
> There were times when profs would question attendance in their
> class, and correctly so.
>
> For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
> going on to study sci/tech, not others. My college tax prof said
> it was only useful for accounting majors, not others.
Always good things to know about any course, IMHO.
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:33:43 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> Yeah, this too-common take on "why take calculus" is interesting and
>> probably a reflection on the psychological or emotional status of the
>> speaker. AFAIK, the majority of people who take 3 or 4 semesters of
>> university-level calculus -- typically required as part of their
>> chosen major -- never have occasion to use it. "Why are you taking
>> calculus? You're just going to become a biochemist/systems
>> analyst/brain surgeon and have kids."
>
> There were times when profs would question attendance in their
> class, and correctly so.
>
> For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
> going on to study sci/tech, not others. My college tax prof said
> it was only useful for accounting majors, not others.
>
> Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
> students. Both mandates were stupid.
nicer, and other things are more broadly useful.
>
> I've talked to many compsci people who had to take calculus in
> college and never used it in their entire career.
That's me so far. I learned a lot more useful math in one semester of
> I've talked to many compsci people who had to take calculus in
> college and never used it in their entire career.
Discrete Mathematics than two of Calculus, and I enjoyed Discrete Math a
lot more, too. Must be something about why I went into Computer Science
to begin with.
As far as math goes: Everyone should take a course in basic logic and a
course in basic probability, at least so they can think correctly about
problems like "If there's a certain probability of A occurring given B,
what's the probability of B occurring given A?" and other things which
come up when you're evaluating risk. The *foundations* of statistics
rest on calculus, granted, but you can learn useful results without ever
having to take a derivative or an integral.
> Other majors
> who took Fortran never used it or even the principles of
> programming in their entire career. Fortran was a crappy
> way to introduce the fundamentals of computers to people.
>
> BASIC would've been a lot better, along with time spent
> on describing basic database and system analysis concepts.
> NOT teaching how to do them, just describing them in general,
> such as the idea of categorizing things.
BASIC, both because I believe in the power of the REPL in pedagogy and
because Python can be used to demonstrate lots of different programming
paradigms without too much ceremony.
Also, Python is in active use in many different fields, so students get
the impression they're learning with real stuff, not toys.
JimP
Apr 17, 2019, 1:31:16 PM4/17/19
to
--
Jim
JimP
Apr 17, 2019, 1:39:17 PM4/17/19
to
On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 15:19:04 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:33:43 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> Yeah, this too-common take on "why take calculus" is interesting and
>> probably a reflection on the psychological or emotional status of the
>> speaker. AFAIK, the majority of people who take 3 or 4 semesters of
>> university-level calculus -- typically required as part of their
>> chosen major -- never have occasion to use it. "Why are you taking
>> calculus? You're just going to become a biochemist/systems
>> analyst/brain surgeon and have kids."
>
>There were times when profs would question attendance in their
>class, and correctly so.
>
>For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
>going on to study sci/tech, not others. My college tax prof said
>it was only useful for accounting majors, not others.
>
>Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
>industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
>for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
>students. Both mandates were stupid.
Except for class work, I never used either one.
>
>> Yeah, this too-common take on "why take calculus" is interesting and
>> probably a reflection on the psychological or emotional status of the
>> speaker. AFAIK, the majority of people who take 3 or 4 semesters of
>> university-level calculus -- typically required as part of their
>> chosen major -- never have occasion to use it. "Why are you taking
>> calculus? You're just going to become a biochemist/systems
>> analyst/brain surgeon and have kids."
>
>There were times when profs would question attendance in their
>class, and correctly so.
>
>For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
>going on to study sci/tech, not others. My college tax prof said
>it was only useful for accounting majors, not others.
>
>Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
>industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
>for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
>students. Both mandates were stupid.
>I've talked to many compsci people who had to take calculus in
>college and never used it in their entire career. Other majors
>who took Fortran never used it or even the principles of
>programming in their entire career. Fortran was a crappy
>way to introduce the fundamentals of computers to people.
which version on the BASIC. That was in 1985.
I had to have a math minor. Trig, Algebra 2, and 10 hours of Calculus.
I've used the trig, not for any job I ever had.
I did my freshman and sophomore classes at the community college and
transferred. Cheaper that way.
>BASIC would've been a lot better, along with time spent
>on describing basic database and system analysis concepts.
>NOT teaching how to do them, just describing them in general,
>such as the idea of categorizing things.
Fortran. Ya know, so they could be the premier Fortran teaching
university in the South East US. We were taught VAX PASCAL, not
Fortran.
The undergrad professor at the branch campus wanted to switch to C,
but main campus refused. See previous paragraph about Fortran.
--
Jim
Quadibloc
Apr 17, 2019, 1:43:24 PM4/17/19
to
> Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
> students. Both mandates were stupid.
Oh, I agree.
> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
> students. Both mandates were stupid.
But in some countries, or, in Canada, in some provinces (but not others), it's
fairly common for colleges to have what I think is an equally stupid
requirement: requiring all students to take a second language.
John Savard
JimP
Apr 17, 2019, 1:45:18 PM4/17/19
to
>> Other majors
>> who took Fortran never used it or even the principles of
>> programming in their entire career. Fortran was a crappy
>> way to introduce the fundamentals of computers to people.
>>
>> BASIC would've been a lot better, along with time spent
>> on describing basic database and system analysis concepts.
>> NOT teaching how to do them, just describing them in general,
>> such as the idea of categorizing things.
>
>I think Python is a better teaching language than both FORTRAN and
>BASIC, both because I believe in the power of the REPL in pedagogy and
>because Python can be used to demonstrate lots of different programming
>paradigms without too much ceremony.
>
>Also, Python is in active use in many different fields, so students get
>the impression they're learning with real stuff, not toys.
it available in the late 1980s ?
No, we didn't have linux at university.
--
Jim
Mike Spencer
Apr 17, 2019, 3:08:06 PM4/17/19
to
Chris Barts <chbarts...@gmail.com> writes:
> hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
>> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
>> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
>> students. Both mandates were stupid.
>
> I fully agree with you here. Calculus is nice, but other things are
> nicer, and other things are more broadly useful.
unlikely to employ it vocationally is, AFAICT, that it introduces one
to a new variety of analytical & critical thinking. I agree with this
motivation.
The downside is that courses are typically taught by profs who assume
that their students seek to become mathematicians or at least to
dabble in the stringently disciplined domain of professional
mathematics. Presenting calculus (or group theory or graph theory
or...) without, on the one hand watering down the basic concepts
(e.g. formal definition of the derivative) but OTOH not demanding
fully disciplined mathematical thinking (e.g. proving theorems) would
be good.
> As far as math goes: Everyone should take a course in basic logic...
Yes, but see "taught by profs who assume that their students seek to
become mathematicians", supra. I can imagine a student getting totally
bogged down in symbolic logic while never getting to something as
intuitive (and enlightening) as Venn diagrams.
> ...and a course in basic probability, at least so they can think
> correctly about problems like "If there's a certain probability of A
> occurring given B, what's the probability of B occurring given A?"
> and other things which come up when you're evaluating risk. The
> *foundations* of statistics rest on calculus, granted, but you can
> learn useful results without ever having to take a derivative or an
> integral.
> occurring given B, what's the probability of B occurring given A?"
> and other things which come up when you're evaluating risk. The
> *foundations* of statistics rest on calculus, granted, but you can
> learn useful results without ever having to take a derivative or an
> integral.
Mike Spencer
Apr 17, 2019, 3:23:06 PM4/17/19
to
J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
> On 16 Apr 2019 01:36:56 -0300, Mike Spencer
> <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> Radcliff has merged with Harvard. Dunno about Smith.
>
> If I understand the policy correctly (and I admit that I find it
> confusing), Smith will admit people transgender people with penises
> who identify as female, but will not admit people with vaginas who
> identify as male. People with penises who identify as male are right
> out.
Does it make me politically incorrect to admit that I find that
>
> If I understand the policy correctly (and I admit that I find it
> confusing), Smith will admit people transgender people with penises
> who identify as female, but will not admit people with vaginas who
> identify as male. People with penises who identify as male are right
> out.
hilarious? And new complexities may be anticipated for those Amherst
College men epitomized by one who staggered drunkenly into his
fraternity house (where I happened to be briefly, by happenstance) on
his return from Northampton (and Smith), flung himself down in the
house parlor, smirked at those present and intoned, "Yrg'f gnyx nobhg
chffl!"
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Apr 17, 2019, 3:30:10 PM4/17/19
to
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:44:08 -0500
JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I never heard of Python programming language until this century. Was
> it available in the late 1980s ?
Not quite, the first release was in 1991.
JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I never heard of Python programming language until this century. Was
> it available in the late 1980s ?
> No, we didn't have linux at university.
the linux kernel was also in 1991.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
JimP
Apr 17, 2019, 3:35:22 PM4/17/19
to
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 20:23:37 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:44:08 -0500
>JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I never heard of Python programming language until this century. Was
>> it available in the late 1980s ?
>
> Not quite, the first release was in 1991.
>
>> No, we didn't have linux at university.
>
> That would have been hard in the late 1980s, the first release of
>the linux kernel was also in 1991.
I was wroking at the same university until 1992; however, I just
<ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:44:08 -0500
>JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I never heard of Python programming language until this century. Was
>> it available in the late 1980s ?
>
> Not quite, the first release was in 1991.
>
>> No, we didn't have linux at university.
>
> That would have been hard in the late 1980s, the first release of
>the linux kernel was also in 1991.
repaired computers. I didn't have time to look much of the 'new stuff'
up.
Thanks. I was wondering when it came in. I didn't really see it until
about 2003.
--
Jim
Charlie Gibbs
Apr 17, 2019, 3:48:14 PM4/17/19
to
Peter Flass
Apr 17, 2019, 8:01:11 PM4/17/19
to
the 1130 had BASIC, but that would have been a good choice. I know it had
an interpreted student version of PL/I, but I’m still looking for a copy
(plug)
--
Pete
Peter Flass
Apr 17, 2019, 8:01:12 PM4/17/19
to
JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 15:19:04 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:33:43 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, this too-common take on "why take calculus" is interesting and
>>> probably a reflection on the psychological or emotional status of the
>>> speaker. AFAIK, the majority of people who take 3 or 4 semesters of
>>> university-level calculus -- typically required as part of their
>>> chosen major -- never have occasion to use it. "Why are you taking
>>> calculus? You're just going to become a biochemist/systems
>>> analyst/brain surgeon and have kids."
>>
>> There were times when profs would question attendance in their
>> class, and correctly so.
>>
>> For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
>> going on to study sci/tech, not others. My college tax prof said
>> it was only useful for accounting majors, not others.
>>
>> Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
>> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
>> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
>> students. Both mandates were stupid.
>
> Except for class work, I never used either one.
I did a lot of FORTRAN back in the day - a lot of 1130 stuff and later sone
> On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 15:19:04 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:33:43 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, this too-common take on "why take calculus" is interesting and
>>> probably a reflection on the psychological or emotional status of the
>>> speaker. AFAIK, the majority of people who take 3 or 4 semesters of
>>> university-level calculus -- typically required as part of their
>>> chosen major -- never have occasion to use it. "Why are you taking
>>> calculus? You're just going to become a biochemist/systems
>>> analyst/brain surgeon and have kids."
>>
>> There were times when profs would question attendance in their
>> class, and correctly so.
>>
>> For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
>> going on to study sci/tech, not others. My college tax prof said
>> it was only useful for accounting majors, not others.
>>
>> Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
>> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
>> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
>> students. Both mandates were stupid.
>
> Except for class work, I never used either one.
XDX sigma stuff in FORTRAN, where it was a very powerful language with all
the extensions. Not much calculus or trig until I had to do some runtime
routines for Iron Spring PL/I, although if I’d stayed in Chem or EE I
probably would have needed both.
--
Pete
Peter Flass
Apr 17, 2019, 8:01:14 PM4/17/19
to
bilingualism for government jobs?
--
Pete
J. Clarke
Apr 17, 2019, 8:51:50 PM4/17/19
to
didn't plan to be a programmer was IMO APL. It was decades ahead of
its time in many regards, you can do a lot with a little knowledge,
and it's really good for exploring a problem space. The only major
downside other than the amount of resource it consumed was the special
character set, which wasn't a problem with the 2741 or 3270 but was
with cheap terminals and with printers. I say "was" because neither
is an issue today.
J. Clarke
Apr 17, 2019, 8:55:51 PM4/17/19
to
is that by that time it's far too late to learn your first second
language easily.
While everybody doesn't need a second language, you don't known when
someone is a child whether he or she will be one of the ones that
does. And I'm told that knowing two languages does something to the
wiring in one's brain that makes a third one relatively easy.
Charlie Gibbs
Apr 18, 2019, 3:04:23 AM4/18/19
to
On 2019-04-18, J Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 10:43:23 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:19:06 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
>>> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
>>> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
>>> students. Both mandates were stupid.
>>
>> Oh, I agree.
>>
>> But in some countries, or, in Canada, in some provinces (but not others),
>> it's fairly common for colleges to have what I think is an equally stupid
>> requirement: requiring all students to take a second language.
>
> The only reason I consider a second language in college to be stupid
> is that by that time it's far too late to learn your first second
> language easily.
Still, by the time I got there I had had several years of high-school
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 10:43:23 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:19:06 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
>>> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
>>> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
>>> students. Both mandates were stupid.
>>
>> Oh, I agree.
>>
>> But in some countries, or, in Canada, in some provinces (but not others),
>> it's fairly common for colleges to have what I think is an equally stupid
>> requirement: requiring all students to take a second language.
>
> The only reason I consider a second language in college to be stupid
> is that by that time it's far too late to learn your first second
> language easily.
French, so I tried German just to change things up. I'm by no means
fluent in either, but I picked up enough that I can at least read signs
and eventually puzzle out a few things in a newspaper. Since then I've
added a smattering of Spanish.
> While everybody doesn't need a second language, you don't known when
> someone is a child whether he or she will be one of the ones that
> does. And I'm told that knowing two languages does something to the
> wiring in one's brain that makes a third one relatively easy.
it's opened my mind up a little bit to other ways of thinking.
Something really out there, like Oriental languages, would probably
make my brain hurt.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Apr 18, 2019, 4:00:02 AM4/18/19
to
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 17:01:00 -0700
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> That may be, but weren’t we talking about the 60s? I don’t know whether
> the 1130 had BASIC, but that would have been a good choice. I know it had
> an interpreted student version of PL/I, but I’m still looking for a copy
> (plug)
The 1130 had BASIC - a very basic BASIC almost pure Dartmouth
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> That may be, but weren’t we talking about the 60s? I don’t know whether
> the 1130 had BASIC, but that would have been a good choice. I know it had
> an interpreted student version of PL/I, but I’m still looking for a copy
> (plug)
original.
JimP
Apr 18, 2019, 9:31:08 AM4/18/19
to
On 18 Apr 2019 08:33:35 GMT, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>On 2019-04-18, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>of spoken Japanese, which is no harder than European languages. The
>written form(s) is a very different matter. I doubt I will ever acquire
>that.
Its a different word order. Subject and verb are in different
locations in the sentence. Still throws me off.
--
Jim
>On 2019-04-18, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> Something really out there, like Oriental languages, would probably
>> make my brain hurt.
>
>As a result of being something of a sumo fan, I've acquired a smattering
>> Something really out there, like Oriental languages, would probably
>> make my brain hurt.
>
>of spoken Japanese, which is no harder than European languages. The
>written form(s) is a very different matter. I doubt I will ever acquire
>that.
Its a different word order. Subject and verb are in different
locations in the sentence. Still throws me off.
--
Jim
Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer
Apr 18, 2019, 10:07:05 AM4/18/19
to
object can be all over the place and which is which is determined by
the preceding particle (preposition).
20 years since I learnt a small amount when contracting in
a Japanese company, NEC, in Reading, Berkshire...
Watashi wa sukoshi shika nihongo wo hannemasen, possibly?
JimP
Apr 18, 2019, 11:16:28 AM4/18/19
to
And that desu is a question and is pronounced des.
--
Jim
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Apr 18, 2019, 5:33:04 PM4/18/19
to
On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 7:19:49 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
> >going on to study sci/tech, not others.
>
> Which is totally bogus. Even a carpenter uses trig, even if he doesn't
> realize it.
Could you elaborate?
> >For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
> >going on to study sci/tech, not others.
>
> Which is totally bogus. Even a carpenter uses trig, even if he doesn't
> realize it.
If he "doesn't realize it", then it would seem a carpenter wouldn't
need to learn it. I can't help but suspect a carpenter is using
pre-printed tables or charts, not sitting there looking up cosines
and arctangents.
Gene Wirchenko
Apr 18, 2019, 5:33:33 PM4/18/19
to
On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:15:58 -0500, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 15:06:12 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs
>Computer <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On 18/04/2019 14:30, JimP wrote:
>>> On 18 Apr 2019 08:33:35 GMT, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2019-04-18, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>>> Something really out there, like Oriental languages, would probably
>>>>> make my brain hurt.
>>>>
>>>> As a result of being something of a sumo fan, I've acquired a smattering
>>>> of spoken Japanese, which is no harder than European languages. The
>>>> written form(s) is a very different matter. I doubt I will ever acquire
>>>> that.
I am trying to learn Japanese myself.
>On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 15:06:12 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs
>Computer <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On 18/04/2019 14:30, JimP wrote:
>>> On 18 Apr 2019 08:33:35 GMT, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2019-04-18, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>>> Something really out there, like Oriental languages, would probably
>>>>> make my brain hurt.
>>>>
>>>> As a result of being something of a sumo fan, I've acquired a smattering
>>>> of spoken Japanese, which is no harder than European languages. The
>>>> written form(s) is a very different matter. I doubt I will ever acquire
>>>> that.
>>> Its a different word order. Subject and verb are in different
>>> locations in the sentence. Still throws me off.
>>
>>Similar to Latin in that the verb comes at the end; subject and
>>object can be all over the place and which is which is determined by
>>the preceding particle (preposition).
>>
>>20 years since I learnt a small amount when contracting in
>>a Japanese company, NEC, in Reading, Berkshire...
>>
>>Watashi wa sukoshi shika nihongo wo hannemasen, possibly?
>I know what konnichiwa and sayonara means. Thats about it.
>
>And that desu is a question and is pronounced des.
It can be clipped to "des".
watashi wa Gene desu.
means
I am Gene.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
J. Clarke
Apr 18, 2019, 6:47:54 PM4/18/19
to
On 18 Apr 2019 07:03:50 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:
A surprising number of kids today know Japanese, because the Japanese
produce a large quantity of very high quality animation and comics.
wrote:
produce a large quantity of very high quality animation and comics.
Andrew Swallow
Apr 18, 2019, 7:02:16 PM4/18/19
to
along the left hand wall and 4 inches along the right hand wall. If the
diagonal is 5 inches he got the angle right.
Quadibloc
Apr 18, 2019, 7:21:44 PM4/18/19
to
Usually, in Japan, women pronounce the final u, and men use the clipped
pronounciation almost invariably.
John Savard
Peter Flass
Apr 18, 2019, 7:58:39 PM4/18/19
to
--
Pete
Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer
Apr 19, 2019, 5:28:54 AM4/19/19
to
On 18/04/2019 22:33, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 15:06:12 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs
>> Computer <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Watashi wa sukoshi shika nihongo wo hannemasen, possibly?
>
> I got five of seven of those words and part of a sixth.
As far as I can remember, and it was 20 years ago and not
>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 15:06:12 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs
>> Computer <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Watashi wa sukoshi shika nihongo wo hannemasen, possibly?
>
> I got five of seven of those words and part of a sixth.
exercised since ...
"I can speak only a little Japanese"
Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer
Apr 19, 2019, 5:29:56 AM4/19/19
to
Scott Lurndal
Apr 19, 2019, 9:30:36 AM4/19/19
to
"Mathematics for Carpenters"
Particularly section 3 of that chapter which is entitled
"Trigonometry"
This chapter contains 15 pages discussing both spherical and plane
trigonometry. After a discussion of the basic concepts and terminology,
Sample problem #1:
"Find length of rafter for a 12 ft run and 8 ft rise allowing for 1 1/2" ridge board"
wherein is stated
"...it will be seen that the rafter corresponds to the secant, hence look at a
table of natural trigonometrical functions, giving values for secant, and find
1.2062 value of secant for 34 degrees ..."
[**] My copy is copyright 1923, leather bound, gilt edged, part of a 4 volume
set packed with useful information.
JimP
Apr 19, 2019, 3:31:07 PM4/19/19
to
substantionally more than I currently do, I might learn it.
--
Jim
Gene Wirchenko
Apr 19, 2019, 4:58:35 PM4/19/19
to
On 18 Apr 2019 21:52:15 GMT, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>On 2019-04-18, Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:15:58 -0500, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>> I am trying to learn Japanese myself.
>
>I am impressed. I've just picked it up from watching sumo on TV,
>reading sumo web sites and visiting the country (which was magnificent,
>BTW) the year before last. My vocabulary is ... idiosyncratic. I know
>the word for "pulling underarm throw" (Shitatedashinage ??????),
>but cannot order a beer. :o)
No need to do that! <BEG> My knowledge of Japanese is similar
to yours. I have picked up some kanji by sight, but my knowledge of
grammar is minimal.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
>On 2019-04-18, Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:15:58 -0500, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am trying to learn Japanese myself.
>
>reading sumo web sites and visiting the country (which was magnificent,
>BTW) the year before last. My vocabulary is ... idiosyncratic. I know
>the word for "pulling underarm throw" (Shitatedashinage ??????),
>but cannot order a beer. :o)
No need to do that! <BEG> My knowledge of Japanese is similar
to yours. I have picked up some kanji by sight, but my knowledge of
grammar is minimal.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Gene Wirchenko
Apr 19, 2019, 4:59:18 PM4/19/19
to
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 10:27:59 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs
guess.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computer <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 18/04/2019 22:33, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 15:06:12 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs
>>> Computer <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Watashi wa sukoshi shika nihongo wo hannemasen, possibly?
>>
>> I got five of seven of those words and part of a sixth.
>
>As far as I can remember, and it was 20 years ago and not
>exercised since ...
>
>"I can speak only a little Japanese"
Hey! I guessed right about the meaning. G is for Gene and
>On 18/04/2019 22:33, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 15:06:12 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs
>>> Computer <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Watashi wa sukoshi shika nihongo wo hannemasen, possibly?
>>
>> I got five of seven of those words and part of a sixth.
>
>As far as I can remember, and it was 20 years ago and not
>exercised since ...
>
>"I can speak only a little Japanese"
guess.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Apr 19, 2019, 5:30:12 PM4/19/19
to
On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 1:43:24 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:19:06 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
> > Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
> > industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
> > for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
> > students. Both mandates were stupid.
>
> Oh, I agree.
>
> But in some countries, or, in Canada, in some provinces (but not others), it's
> fairly common for colleges to have what I think is an equally stupid
> requirement: requiring all students to take a second language.
The usefulness of a foreign language is debatable. Some argue
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:19:06 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
> > Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
> > industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
> > for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
> > students. Both mandates were stupid.
>
> Oh, I agree.
>
> But in some countries, or, in Canada, in some provinces (but not others), it's
> fairly common for colleges to have what I think is an equally stupid
> requirement: requiring all students to take a second language.
it's a waste of time. But others argue (as some suggest
for calculus), that it inspires thinking, helps with English,
and is the mark of an educated person.
Personally, I'm not sure I agree with that. Just because I
can understand some French phrases mentioned on TV I don't
think means all that much.
However: we are living in a smaller and smaller integrated
global world, much more so than when most of got out of school.
I can't help but wonder if knowing a foreign language today
will have practical benefits on the job...
1) Spanish--there are increasing numbers of Spanish speakers
in the U.S. Knowing their language may mean reaching more
customers and thus more revenue.
2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
I am amazed at many young people I know who graduate college
and go off to China or Japan.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Apr 19, 2019, 5:37:02 PM4/19/19
to
On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 3:08:06 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
> The justification for recommending or requiring calculus for those
> unlikely to employ it vocationally is, AFAICT, that it introduces one
> to a new variety of analytical & critical thinking. I agree with this
> motivation.
I must respectfully disagree. In my opinion, calculus is just
too technical and not inspiration in introducing a new way of
critical thinking.
I do think all students should take algebra I, geometry, and
algebra II because (1) they're useful, and (2) they teach
critical thinking.
> The downside is that courses are typically taught by profs who assume
> that their students seek to become mathematicians or at least to
> dabble in the stringently disciplined domain of professional
> mathematics. Presenting calculus (or group theory or graph theory
> or...) without, on the one hand watering down the basic concepts
> (e.g. formal definition of the derivative) but OTOH not demanding
> fully disciplined mathematical thinking (e.g. proving theorems) would
> be good.
A good college should have two tracks of courses, one for
eng/sci majors, one for everyone else, appropriate watered-down.
My college did that with physics and it was great. The eng/sci
courses were literally rocket science (they shot off things
and studied their trajectory). The other course was basically
a magic show--lasers and light diffraction, Geiger counters,
friction, air trains, gravity, etc. I think the only math in
that class was the room number on the door. But it did explain,
in a very understandable and interesting way, all the principles.
Indeed, the business college should've had an accounting/
economics/finance class for non business majors. Not to
teach someone how to keep the books, but just to define
what a budget, balance sheet, and income statement were,
and some basic principles of finance and economics. Indeed,
that sort of thing is vital for most engineers to know if
they're designing something--cost is always a factor.
[snip]
> The justification for recommending or requiring calculus for those
> unlikely to employ it vocationally is, AFAICT, that it introduces one
> to a new variety of analytical & critical thinking. I agree with this
> motivation.
I must respectfully disagree. In my opinion, calculus is just
too technical and not inspiration in introducing a new way of
critical thinking.
I do think all students should take algebra I, geometry, and
algebra II because (1) they're useful, and (2) they teach
critical thinking.
> The downside is that courses are typically taught by profs who assume
> that their students seek to become mathematicians or at least to
> dabble in the stringently disciplined domain of professional
> mathematics. Presenting calculus (or group theory or graph theory
> or...) without, on the one hand watering down the basic concepts
> (e.g. formal definition of the derivative) but OTOH not demanding
> fully disciplined mathematical thinking (e.g. proving theorems) would
> be good.
A good college should have two tracks of courses, one for
eng/sci majors, one for everyone else, appropriate watered-down.
My college did that with physics and it was great. The eng/sci
courses were literally rocket science (they shot off things
and studied their trajectory). The other course was basically
a magic show--lasers and light diffraction, Geiger counters,
friction, air trains, gravity, etc. I think the only math in
that class was the room number on the door. But it did explain,
in a very understandable and interesting way, all the principles.
Indeed, the business college should've had an accounting/
economics/finance class for non business majors. Not to
teach someone how to keep the books, but just to define
what a budget, balance sheet, and income statement were,
and some basic principles of finance and economics. Indeed,
that sort of thing is vital for most engineers to know if
they're designing something--cost is always a factor.
[snip]
Dan Espen
Apr 19, 2019, 5:38:11 PM4/19/19
to
I imagine there is a big demand for English teachers in China and
Japan.
--
Dan Espen
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Apr 19, 2019, 5:39:53 PM4/19/19
to
On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 8:01:11 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
> That may be, but weren’t we talking about the 60s? I don’t know whether
> the 1130 had BASIC, but that would have been a good choice. I know it had
> an interpreted student version of PL/I, but I’m still looking for a copy
> (plug)
Our 1130 had a timesharing BASIC in the late 1960s, but it was
> That may be, but weren’t we talking about the 60s? I don’t know whether
> the 1130 had BASIC, but that would have been a good choice. I know it had
> an interpreted student version of PL/I, but I’m still looking for a copy
> (plug)
awfully slow. Developed by an independent vendor, I think. We
subsequent replaced the 1130 with an HP-2000 which was a far
superior machine for timesharing.
I still wish I had some exposure to someone who did useful work
on an 1130 and wasn't bothered by its horribly slow I/O. As
mentioned, if were able to load it up with data and get the
CPU running, it could do reasonably well, but getting data in
and out was horrendous.
J. Clarke
Apr 19, 2019, 5:58:06 PM4/19/19
to
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 14:37:00 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 3:08:06 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>
>> The justification for recommending or requiring calculus for those
>> unlikely to employ it vocationally is, AFAICT, that it introduces one
>> to a new variety of analytical & critical thinking. I agree with this
>> motivation.
>
>I must respectfully disagree. In my opinion, calculus is just
>too technical and not inspiration in introducing a new way of
>critical thinking.
A problem with calculus as it is taught is that the mathematicians
>On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 3:08:06 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>
>> The justification for recommending or requiring calculus for those
>> unlikely to employ it vocationally is, AFAICT, that it introduces one
>> to a new variety of analytical & critical thinking. I agree with this
>> motivation.
>
>I must respectfully disagree. In my opinion, calculus is just
>too technical and not inspiration in introducing a new way of
>critical thinking.
have moved it away from its roots. To the mathematician the most
important thing for a student to know about calculus is how to prove
the Fundamental Theorem, and not how to actually use it to perform
calculations. This means that it is introduced in a rather abstract
way that doesn't lead to a lot of physical insight.
There is an alternative approach, called "nonstandard analysis", which
makes some alterations to the concept of infinity in order to allow
rigorous presentation of calculus using the infinitesimals that Newton
and Leibniz originated based on physics. There is a calculus text
that uses this approach--http://www.math.wisc.edu/~keisler/calc.html.
Whether it gives more insight is a matter of opinion--I came to it
after getting the conventional approach and found some of it tough
going but I'm not sure if that's because I had to unlearn some things
or whether it's inherent in the book or its approach.
the required "engineering economics" course at Georgia Tech and didn't
get a lot out of it. Now I'm getting real finance for people who are
planning to work in the field and I'm finding out why I didn't get a
lot out of it.
J. Clarke
Apr 19, 2019, 6:08:44 PM4/19/19
to
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 17:38:10 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com>
wrote:
China maybe. English is pretty far into Japanese pop culture already.
wrote:
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Apr 19, 2019, 7:00:08 PM4/19/19
to
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 17:38:10 -0400
Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I imagine there is a big demand for English teachers in China and
> Japan.
Some time back there were adverts in airports claiming that there
> I imagine there is a big demand for English teachers in China and
> Japan.
were more people learning English in China than there were speaking it in
the UK.
Mike Spencer
Apr 19, 2019, 7:22:27 PM4/19/19
to
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> The usefulness of a foreign language is debatable. Some argue
> it's a waste of time. But others argue (as some suggest
> for calculus), that it inspires thinking, helps with English,
> and is the mark of an educated person.
>
> Personally, I'm not sure I agree with that. Just because I
> can understand some French phrases mentioned on TV I don't
> think means all that much.
German because it was alleged that it was "the language of science."
In general, that proved to have been a notion left over from decades
before my time but when I stated working in science, it happened that
the single most comprehensive and up to date book on my work subject
was in German -- Biochemie des Hoerorgans.
My career in science only lasted a year but in a few years I had
embarked on what turned out to be somthing of a life-long vocation and
whaddya know? It was in Germany that the skills and traditions of
blacksmithing as an art form [1] had best survived between
industrialization of ironworking after Bessemer and the revival in
Leftpondia in the 70s.
And being able to read der Spiegel (when I can get to a shop that
stocks it) gives me another take on the news.
> I am amazed at many young people I know who graduate college
> and go off to China or Japan.
[1] Kunstschmied. English didn't even have an equivalent word.
"Artist blacksmith" was coined in the 70s and even still clangs on
the ear of people who assume that blacksmiths shoe horses.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Quadibloc
Apr 19, 2019, 7:35:13 PM4/19/19
to
On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 3:58:06 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> To the mathematician the most
> important thing for a student to know about calculus is how to prove
> the Fundamental Theorem, and not how to actually use it to perform
> calculations.
In that case, it is possible to make a lot of mathematicians happy.
> To the mathematician the most
> important thing for a student to know about calculus is how to prove
> the Fundamental Theorem, and not how to actually use it to perform
> calculations.
I think you could use a felt board to teach the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus
to first-grade students.
It could be explained in terms of how fast little Tommy is using up his paint as
he paints a fence with fenceposts of different heights.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Apr 19, 2019, 7:37:15 PM4/19/19
to
On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 3:38:11 PM UTC-6, Dan Espen wrote:
> I imagine there is a big demand for English teachers in China and
> Japan.
I remember seeing a claim that one is better off accepting an English teaching job
> I imagine there is a big demand for English teachers in China and
> Japan.
in South Korea instead of Japan.
Assuming war doesn't break out.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Apr 19, 2019, 7:39:17 PM4/19/19
to
On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 5:22:27 PM UTC-6, Mike Spencer wrote:
> "Artist blacksmith" was coined in the 70s and even still clangs on
> the ear of people who assume that blacksmiths shoe horses.
I remember reading a fantasy novel which included a bit about a being who
> "Artist blacksmith" was coined in the 70s and even still clangs on
> the ear of people who assume that blacksmiths shoe horses.
collected metal sculptures that were confiscated to make weapons becsause of a
menacing dragon that wasn't the real menace...
John Savard
Peter Flass
Apr 19, 2019, 7:43:34 PM4/19/19
to
speak mainly English.
> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
--
Pete
Peter Flass
Apr 19, 2019, 7:43:35 PM4/19/19
to
Mike Spencer <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> The usefulness of a foreign language is debatable. Some argue
>> it's a waste of time. But others argue (as some suggest
>> for calculus), that it inspires thinking, helps with English,
>> and is the mark of an educated person.
>>
>> Personally, I'm not sure I agree with that. Just because I
>> can understand some French phrases mentioned on TV I don't
>> think means all that much.
>
> In high school (which required 2 years of a 2nd language) I opted for
> German because it was alleged that it was "the language of science."
> In general, that proved to have been a notion left over from decades
> before my time but when I stated working in science, it happened that
> the single most comprehensive and up to date book on my work subject
> was in German -- Biochemie des Hoerorgans.
>
> My career in science only lasted a year but in a few years I had
> embarked on what turned out to be somthing of a life-long vocation and
> whaddya know? It was in Germany that the skills and traditions of
> blacksmithing as an art form [1] had best survived between
> industrialization of ironworking after Bessemer and the revival in
> Leftpondia in the 70s.
>
> And being able to read der Spiegel (when I can get to a shop that
> stocks it) gives me another take on the news.
That’s why I got back into German about the late 1980s. I wondered what the
>
> hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> The usefulness of a foreign language is debatable. Some argue
>> it's a waste of time. But others argue (as some suggest
>> for calculus), that it inspires thinking, helps with English,
>> and is the mark of an educated person.
>>
>> Personally, I'm not sure I agree with that. Just because I
>> can understand some French phrases mentioned on TV I don't
>> think means all that much.
>
> In high school (which required 2 years of a 2nd language) I opted for
> German because it was alleged that it was "the language of science."
> In general, that proved to have been a notion left over from decades
> before my time but when I stated working in science, it happened that
> the single most comprehensive and up to date book on my work subject
> was in German -- Biochemie des Hoerorgans.
>
> My career in science only lasted a year but in a few years I had
> embarked on what turned out to be somthing of a life-long vocation and
> whaddya know? It was in Germany that the skills and traditions of
> blacksmithing as an art form [1] had best survived between
> industrialization of ironworking after Bessemer and the revival in
> Leftpondia in the 70s.
>
> And being able to read der Spiegel (when I can get to a shop that
> stocks it) gives me another take on the news.
German view of the world was at the time of reunification. I’m still not
very proficient. I can watch a German TV show and get somewhere between 40
and maybe 75%.
--
Pete
Peter Flass
Apr 19, 2019, 7:43:35 PM4/19/19
to
adequate, if slow. I remember being amazed watching a 2501 card reader on a
360/20.
--
Pete
Dave Garland
Apr 19, 2019, 9:52:17 PM4/19/19
to
generations (since 1898).
J. Clarke
Apr 19, 2019, 10:24:55 PM4/19/19
to
J. Clarke
Apr 19, 2019, 10:31:31 PM4/19/19
to
India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
John Levine
Apr 19, 2019, 11:53:54 PM4/19/19
to
In article <lq0lbet1oe83a9f7v...@4ax.com> you write:
>>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>
>>Possibly more likely.
>
>I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
>>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>
>>Possibly more likely.
>
>I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
de-facto national language is English. If I were learning a language
it'd be Mandarin (spoken by a majority of Chinese, and the written
form is the same for most of the other Chinese languages) or Japanese.
--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
J. Clarke
Apr 20, 2019, 12:32:50 AM4/20/19
to
On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 03:53:53 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
<jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>In article <lq0lbet1oe83a9f7v...@4ax.com> you write:
>>>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>>>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>>>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>>
>>>Possibly more likely.
>>
>>I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>>India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>>what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
>
>In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
>de-facto national language is English. If I were learning a language
>it'd be Mandarin (spoken by a majority of Chinese, and the written
>form is the same for most of the other Chinese languages) or Japanese.
If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
<jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>In article <lq0lbet1oe83a9f7v...@4ax.com> you write:
>>>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>>>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>>>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>>
>>>Possibly more likely.
>>
>>I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>>India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>>what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
>
>In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
>de-facto national language is English. If I were learning a language
>it'd be Mandarin (spoken by a majority of Chinese, and the written
>form is the same for most of the other Chinese languages) or Japanese.
speak it so poorly?
For entertainment reasons I would learn Japanese, but the average
American does not have to deal with the Chinese on a daily basis. Many
of us do have to deal with people in India on a daily basis.
Quadibloc
Apr 20, 2019, 1:15:48 AM4/20/19
to
On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 10:32:50 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 03:53:53 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
> <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
> >In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
> >de-facto national language is English.
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 03:53:53 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
> <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
> >In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
> >de-facto national language is English.
> If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
> speak it so poorly?
India has _two_ official national languages, English and Hindi. The languages
> speak it so poorly?
of the people living in the north of India, like Bengali and Urdu, are
closely related to Sanskrit, and thus the people in that part of India
generally learn to speak Hindi.
In the south of India, though, the people speak languages like Tamil and
Malayalam, which are not related to Sanskrit. Therefore, as Hindi is hard for
them to learn, they prefer to learn English, due to the economic
opportunities it provides.
Every so often, a politician from the north of India proposes that India
should do away with having English as an official language. Sometimes these
proposals get far enough that they lead to "language riots" in the south of
India.
John Savard
J. Clarke
Apr 20, 2019, 2:03:48 AM4/20/19
to
native languages of the several people from India I work with are. My
impression is that they are mostly in or from Mumbai, so perhaps
Marathi?
Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer
Apr 20, 2019, 5:09:06 AM4/20/19
to
On 19/04/2019 22:37, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 3:08:06 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>
>> The justification for recommending or requiring calculus for those
>> unlikely to employ it vocationally is, AFAICT, that it introduces one
>> to a new variety of analytical & critical thinking. I agree with this
>> motivation.
>
> I must respectfully disagree. In my opinion, calculus is just
> too technical and not inspiration in introducing a new way of
> critical thinking.
My first introduction to The Calculus was in the 3rd year (now year 10?)
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 3:08:06 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>
>> The justification for recommending or requiring calculus for those
>> unlikely to employ it vocationally is, AFAICT, that it introduces one
>> to a new variety of analytical & critical thinking. I agree with this
>> motivation.
>
> I must respectfully disagree. In my opinion, calculus is just
> too technical and not inspiration in introducing a new way of
> critical thinking.
at Nailsea Grammar school, so that by the time that maths 'A' level came
along, we were very comfortable with the concepts.
Says something about the quality of the Brit grammar school system, long
destroyed by politicians seeking to dumb every body down to the lowest
common denominator.
Scott Lurndal
Apr 20, 2019, 9:22:01 AM4/20/19
to
Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> writes:
a stint teaching German in Japan. He wasn't impressed by the
quality of American high schools in comparison (when I ran into him
a decade later, he lamented that the schools were even worse than
when I had been his student :-)
>hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>>
>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>
>> I am amazed at many young people I know who graduate college
>> and go off to China or Japan.
>
>That's great.
>
>I imagine there is a big demand for English teachers in China and
>Japan.
My High School German teacher (Herr Preston) had just returned from
>
>>
>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>
>> I am amazed at many young people I know who graduate college
>> and go off to China or Japan.
>
>That's great.
>
>I imagine there is a big demand for English teachers in China and
>Japan.
a stint teaching German in Japan. He wasn't impressed by the
quality of American high schools in comparison (when I ran into him
a decade later, he lamented that the schools were even worse than
when I had been his student :-)
Peter Flass
Apr 20, 2019, 9:24:25 AM4/20/19
to
before the most recent hurricane)
--
Pete
Peter Flass
Apr 20, 2019, 9:24:26 AM4/20/19
to
J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 03:53:53 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
> <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <lq0lbet1oe83a9f7v...@4ax.com> you write:
>>>>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>>>>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>>>>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>>>
>>>> Possibly more likely.
>>>
>>> I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>>> India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>>> what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
>>
>> In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
>> de-facto national language is English. If I were learning a language
>> it'd be Mandarin (spoken by a majority of Chinese, and the written
>> form is the same for most of the other Chinese languages) or Japanese.
>
> If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
> speak it so poorly?
It’s one of their national languages. The people speak many regional
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 03:53:53 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
> <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <lq0lbet1oe83a9f7v...@4ax.com> you write:
>>>>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>>>>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>>>>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>>>
>>>> Possibly more likely.
>>>
>>> I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>>> India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>>> what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
>>
>> In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
>> de-facto national language is English. If I were learning a language
>> it'd be Mandarin (spoken by a majority of Chinese, and the written
>> form is the same for most of the other Chinese languages) or Japanese.
>
> If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
> speak it so poorly?
languages at home. Hindi was supposed to be their only national language,
but inter-ethnic rivalries kept English also.
>
> For entertainment reasons I would learn Japanese, but the average
> American does not have to deal with the Chinese on a daily basis. Many
> of us do have to deal with people in India on a daily basis.
>
Pete
Quadibloc
Apr 20, 2019, 10:21:30 AM4/20/19
to
On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 7:24:26 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
the south are the ones that primarily want to keep English as an official
language of India. But they're not doing so out of "inter-ethnic rivalry".
They're doing so out of rational self-interest: English is a valuable world
language, and, because the languages they speak at home aren't sister
languages of Hindi, learning it would be a lot of work.
Instead, it's Hindu nationalists who try to abolish English as an official
language in India who are acting out of bigotry and spite, at least in my
opinion. The end result would be to impose a burden on Dravidian speakers
basically in order to force them to acknowledge Aryan hegemony.
Really, the correct approach would be for India to recognize all the
regional languages as official, so that speakers of Punjabi or Malayalam
would have full access to all educational services, including those at the
post-secondary level, in their own language. Those few who wish to engage
in activities that require a second language can voluntarily learn one.
That way, the people of India, of every language group, would enjoy
equality with native speakers of English living in the United States.
Learning a second language is hard work, involving lots of rote
memorization. It is precisely the sort of thing calculated to kill the
enthusiasm of young students for learning. So if you want students to have
a high level of enthusiasm, so that the schools will produce as many
scientists and engineers as possible, languages should be kept away from
the schools for the most part.
John Savard
> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
> > speak it so poorly?
> It’s one of their national languages. The people speak many regional
> languages at home. Hindi was supposed to be their only national language,
> but inter-ethnic rivalries kept English also.
I'm not happy with that last phrase. The speakers of Dravidian languages in
> > If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
> > speak it so poorly?
> It’s one of their national languages. The people speak many regional
> languages at home. Hindi was supposed to be their only national language,
> but inter-ethnic rivalries kept English also.
the south are the ones that primarily want to keep English as an official
language of India. But they're not doing so out of "inter-ethnic rivalry".
They're doing so out of rational self-interest: English is a valuable world
language, and, because the languages they speak at home aren't sister
languages of Hindi, learning it would be a lot of work.
Instead, it's Hindu nationalists who try to abolish English as an official
language in India who are acting out of bigotry and spite, at least in my
opinion. The end result would be to impose a burden on Dravidian speakers
basically in order to force them to acknowledge Aryan hegemony.
Really, the correct approach would be for India to recognize all the
regional languages as official, so that speakers of Punjabi or Malayalam
would have full access to all educational services, including those at the
post-secondary level, in their own language. Those few who wish to engage
in activities that require a second language can voluntarily learn one.
That way, the people of India, of every language group, would enjoy
equality with native speakers of English living in the United States.
Learning a second language is hard work, involving lots of rote
memorization. It is precisely the sort of thing calculated to kill the
enthusiasm of young students for learning. So if you want students to have
a high level of enthusiasm, so that the schools will produce as many
scientists and engineers as possible, languages should be kept away from
the schools for the most part.
John Savard
J. Clarke
Apr 20, 2019, 10:35:01 AM4/20/19
to
John Levine
Apr 20, 2019, 11:11:37 AM4/20/19
to
In article <1886969101.577459079.659...@news.eternal-september.org>,
is not one of them.
P.R. is a small island a thousand miles from the US mainland where the
only natural resources are sunshine and rum. Everything else has to
be imported and shipping costs are very high due to the Jones Act. It
used to have a manufacturing tax preference so there were a lot of
drug makers and light industry, then Congress for no particular reason
cancelled it and the industry left, about the same time the Navy shut
down the Roosevelt Roads base. They have certainly made some bad
economic decisions of their own, and getting whacked by one of the
biggest hurricanes ever to hit any part of the US made a bad situation
far worse.
Puerto Ricans speak enough English to get by, and since they are US
citizens (despite what some politicians apparently imagine) they can
come to the mainland US where they have no trouble getting jobs.
The whole Caribbean is an economic basket case. The only parts that
are OK are the French islands due to huge subsidies and
Trinidad+Tobago which has oil wells.
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Not in Puerto Rico, which has been part of the US for what, 5
>> generations (since 1898).
>
>Probably part of why their economy is in such bad shape (and was even
>before the most recent hurricane)
There are a lot of problems with the Puerto Rican economy, but Spanish
>> Not in Puerto Rico, which has been part of the US for what, 5
>> generations (since 1898).
>
>Probably part of why their economy is in such bad shape (and was even
>before the most recent hurricane)
is not one of them.
P.R. is a small island a thousand miles from the US mainland where the
only natural resources are sunshine and rum. Everything else has to
be imported and shipping costs are very high due to the Jones Act. It
used to have a manufacturing tax preference so there were a lot of
drug makers and light industry, then Congress for no particular reason
cancelled it and the industry left, about the same time the Navy shut
down the Roosevelt Roads base. They have certainly made some bad
economic decisions of their own, and getting whacked by one of the
biggest hurricanes ever to hit any part of the US made a bad situation
far worse.
Puerto Ricans speak enough English to get by, and since they are US
citizens (despite what some politicians apparently imagine) they can
come to the mainland US where they have no trouble getting jobs.
The whole Caribbean is an economic basket case. The only parts that
are OK are the French islands due to huge subsidies and
Trinidad+Tobago which has oil wells.
Dan Espen
Apr 20, 2019, 11:30:28 AM4/20/19
to
We were told there were no poor people on Grand Cayman.
Rented a car to find the poor neighborhoods.
No such luck.
The islands have a nice climate but not much in natural resources.
Some struggle more than others. Not my kind of thing, but if you
can find enough work to feed yourself, it's not a bad life.
--
Dan Espen
John Levine
Apr 20, 2019, 11:47:15 AM4/20/19
to
In article <q9fdui$ioq$1...@dont-email.me> you write:
>Ever been to Grand Cayman? British and the opposite of a basket case.
>We were told there were no poor people on Grand Cayman.
>Rented a car to find the poor neighborhoods.
>No such luck.
Well, OK, but the Cayman Islands has a total population of about
>Ever been to Grand Cayman? British and the opposite of a basket case.
>We were told there were no poor people on Grand Cayman.
>Rented a car to find the poor neighborhoods.
>No such luck.
65,000 and its main industry is legalized financial fraud. (Tourism
is second.) That doesn't scale. If the US and EU ever get fed up
with their financial shenanigans, they'll be as poor as the rest of
the islands.
R's,
John
Andreas Kohlbach
Apr 20, 2019, 1:10:07 PM4/20/19
to
On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 03:53:53 -0000 (UTC), John Levine wrote:
>
> In article <lq0lbet1oe83a9f7v...@4ax.com> you write:
>
>>I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>>India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>>what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
>
> In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
> de-facto national language is English.
I suppose English came only with the British rule
>
> In article <lq0lbet1oe83a9f7v...@4ax.com> you write:
>
>>I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>>India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>>what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
>
> In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
> de-facto national language is English.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj#Education>:
| The British made widespread education in English a high
| priority. During the time of the East India Company, Thomas Babington
| Macaulay had made schooling taught in English a priority [...]
--
Andreas
My random thoughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/
JimP
Apr 20, 2019, 1:21:02 PM4/20/19
to
sitting President authorizes it, must make all purchases from the U.S.
Even if another country sells the same thing cheaper. And as noted a
while back, corruption from the U.S. is one of the big problems that
our territories and protectorates have to deal with.
And speaking a particular language, if in the majority, should have
zero effect on commerce, etc.
--
Jim
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Apr 20, 2019, 2:15:46 PM4/20/19
to
On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 7:22:27 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
> > I am amazed at many young people I know who graduate college
> > and go off to China or Japan.
>
> Now that you mention it, yes, same.
Vietnam, too. Which amazes me since that was the last
> > I am amazed at many young people I know who graduate college
> > and go off to China or Japan.
>
> Now that you mention it, yes, same.
place most of our generation* wanted to end up, now
the youth go there for opportunity.
* I knew one guy who volunteered. He regretted his decision
not long after; hated the military.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Apr 20, 2019, 2:22:00 PM4/20/19
to
On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 7:43:35 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
> > I still wish I had some exposure to someone who did useful work
> > on an 1130 and wasn't bothered by its horribly slow I/O. As
> > mentioned, if were able to load it up with data and get the
> > CPU running, it could do reasonably well, but getting data in
> > and out was horrendous.
> >
>
> Define useful. We did a lot of development work on one, and it was
> adequate, if slow. I remember being amazed watching a 2501 card reader on a
> 360/20.
Well, I must admit I worded that poorly. Obviously, lots of
> > I still wish I had some exposure to someone who did useful work
> > on an 1130 and wasn't bothered by its horribly slow I/O. As
> > mentioned, if were able to load it up with data and get the
> > CPU running, it could do reasonably well, but getting data in
> > and out was horrendous.
> >
>
> Define useful. We did a lot of development work on one, and it was
> adequate, if slow. I remember being amazed watching a 2501 card reader on a
> 360/20.
customers found the 1130 useful since it had good sales. I
presume its main attraction was that it was significantly
cheaper than anything else out there when it came out. So,
for a group of engineers/scientists, slow as it was, it still
beat using hand calculators.
I'm guessing a relatively small group would prefer their
own dedicated machine to use as they saw fit as opposed to
submitting batch jobs and waiting for turnaround on a larger
but shared S/360.
But, personally, I found it very frustrating to use being so slow.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Apr 20, 2019, 2:25:39 PM4/20/19
to
> >I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
> >India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
> >what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
have no trouble with the language.
The problem is that they are locked into their computer screen
with canned answers. They aren't really employees of the business
and as such can't really supply any intelligence, only what the
screen tells them to say.
Further, companies now do everything they can to block access to
a human. They expect you to speak your problem to a computer,
which of course doesn't understand. It's a joke on TV, but not
in real life. All the time I hear my co-workers shouting into
the phone at the bank's computer and getting nowhere.
Peter Flass
Apr 20, 2019, 2:50:35 PM4/20/19
to
<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>>> I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>>> India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>>> what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
>
> People in India (presumably) at help or customer service desks
> have no trouble with the language.
FSVO “no problem.” Sometimes I just want to scream “why can’t I talk to
>
>>> I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>>> India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>>> what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
>
> People in India (presumably) at help or customer service desks
> have no trouble with the language.
someone who speaks English?”
>
> The problem is that they are locked into their computer screen
> with canned answers. They aren't really employees of the business
> and as such can't really supply any intelligence, only what the
> screen tells them to say.
>
> Further, companies now do everything they can to block access to
> a human. They expect you to speak your problem to a computer,
> which of course doesn't understand. It's a joke on TV, but not
> in real life. All the time I hear my co-workers shouting into
> the phone at the bank's computer and getting nowhere.
>
--
Pete
Peter Flass
Apr 20, 2019, 2:50:35 PM4/20/19
to
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> Learning a second language is hard work, involving lots of rote
> memorization. It is precisely the sort of thing calculated to kill the
> enthusiasm of young students for learning. So if you want students to have
> a high level of enthusiasm, so that the schools will produce as many
> scientists and engineers as possible, languages should be kept away from
> the schools for the most part.
If people start young I’m told it’s relatively painless.
>
> Learning a second language is hard work, involving lots of rote
> memorization. It is precisely the sort of thing calculated to kill the
> enthusiasm of young students for learning. So if you want students to have
> a high level of enthusiasm, so that the schools will produce as many
> scientists and engineers as possible, languages should be kept away from
> the schools for the most part.
--
Pete
J. Clarke
Apr 20, 2019, 5:40:21 PM4/20/19
to
APL/360 provided.
>
J. Clarke
Apr 20, 2019, 5:49:47 PM4/20/19
to
software vendor. I am talking about real dealings with real people
whose salaries are paid by the same company that pays mine. And there
is no blockage of access to a human.
Peter Flass
Apr 20, 2019, 5:59:04 PM4/20/19
to
difficulties. I can think of more than one company that has the “press 1
for ...” that never seems to have a choice for what I want. I try 0 and 9,
not part of the menu system but sometimes getting me a human being.
Otherwise I pick some unrelated thing that seems that it might possible get
me to a person, who can sometimes transfer me where I want.
--
Pete
J. Clarke
Apr 20, 2019, 7:12:41 PM4/20/19
to
aren't.
Peter Flass
Apr 20, 2019, 7:31:07 PM4/20/19
to
I’d get an operator who could usually get me where I needed to be in
seconds, unless she had to find out the correct person. Now I spend minutes
lost in stupid menus complete with stupid messages that don’t apply to me.
--
Pete
J. Clarke
Apr 20, 2019, 10:20:25 PM4/20/19
to
On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 16:31:01 -0700, Peter Flass
>>> difficulties. I can think of more than one company that has the ?press 1
>>> for ...? that never seems to have a choice for what I want. I try 0 and 9,
desk and "my experience is not typical"?
>>> for ...? that never seems to have a choice for what I want. I try 0 and 9,
>>> not part of the menu system but sometimes getting me a human being.
>>> Otherwise I pick some unrelated thing that seems that it might possible get
>>> me to a person, who can sometimes transfer me where I want.
>>
>> You're assuming that our systems are accessible "on the outside". They
>> aren't.
>>
>
>Exactly, your experience is far from typical. In the old days when I called
>I’d get an operator who could usually get me where I needed to be in
>seconds, unless she had to find out the correct person. Now I spend minutes
>lost in stupid menus complete with stupid messages that don’t apply to me.
What, I'm complaining that I can't make myself understood by the help
>>> Otherwise I pick some unrelated thing that seems that it might possible get
>>> me to a person, who can sometimes transfer me where I want.
>>
>> You're assuming that our systems are accessible "on the outside". They
>> aren't.
>>
>
>Exactly, your experience is far from typical. In the old days when I called
>I’d get an operator who could usually get me where I needed to be in
>seconds, unless she had to find out the correct person. Now I spend minutes
>lost in stupid menus complete with stupid messages that don’t apply to me.
desk and "my experience is not typical"?
Joy Beeson
Apr 20, 2019, 10:33:39 PM4/20/19
to
On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 00:32:50 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
> speak it so poorly?
They speak Indian English quite well. English is following the
<jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
> speak it so poorly?
example of Latin, and breaking up into mutually-incomprehensible
dialects.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
JimP
Apr 21, 2019, 7:39:25 AM4/21/19
to
On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 22:33:35 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 00:32:50 -0400, J. Clarke
><jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
>> speak it so poorly?
>
>They speak Indian English quite well. English is following the
>example of Latin, and breaking up into mutually-incomprehensible
>dialects.
They pronounce British English emphasis on the same syllables as their
<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 00:32:50 -0400, J. Clarke
><jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
>> speak it so poorly?
>
>They speak Indian English quite well. English is following the
>example of Latin, and breaking up into mutually-incomprehensible
>dialects.
first language. So we may expect the emphasized syllable to be the
second one, they emphasis the first or third one.
--
Jim
Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer
Apr 21, 2019, 7:53:14 AM4/21/19
to
is surprising as to how close to the Welsh accent is the Indian's
English pronunciation.
Robert Munyer
Apr 21, 2019, 5:48:41 PM4/21/19
to
John Levine wrote:
> and shipping costs are very high due to the Jones Act. It
> used to have a manufacturing tax preference so there were a lot of
> drug makers and light industry, then Congress for no particular reason
> cancelled it and the industry left, about the same time the Navy shut
> down the Roosevelt Roads base. They have certainly made some bad
> economic decisions of their own, and getting whacked by one of the
> biggest hurricanes ever to hit any part of the US made a bad situation
> far worse.
When the hurricane happened, the President said that he will
> and shipping costs are very high due to the Jones Act. It
> used to have a manufacturing tax preference so there were a lot of
> drug makers and light industry, then Congress for no particular reason
> cancelled it and the industry left, about the same time the Navy shut
> down the Roosevelt Roads base. They have certainly made some bad
> economic decisions of their own, and getting whacked by one of the
> biggest hurricanes ever to hit any part of the US made a bad situation
> far worse.
wipe out Puerto Rico's debt balance. Has he done that yet?
--
e-mail: the TLD is COM, the subdomain is my surname,
and the local-part is the product of 191773 and 48271.
John Levine
Apr 21, 2019, 6:38:50 PM4/21/19
to
In article <q9iof1$1iom$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
Robert Munyer <rob...@not-for-mail.invalid> wrote:
>John Levine wrote:
>> ... They have certainly made some bad
because they're, you know, not like us.
A financial control board called PROMESA that was set up in 2016
oversees the island's finances. This podcast has an interesting
interview with PROMESA's executive director, who sounds quite
reasonable and is doing what she can with what she's got, but what
Puerto Rico needs is vast amounts of disaster and development aid,
like what they'd get if they were a state.
https://slate.com/business/2019/04/slate-money-talks-to-natalie-jaresko.html
Robert Munyer <rob...@not-for-mail.invalid> wrote:
>John Levine wrote:
>> ... They have certainly made some bad
>> economic decisions of their own, and getting whacked by one of the
>> biggest hurricanes ever to hit any part of the US made a bad situation
>> far worse.
>
>When the hurricane happened, the President said that he will
>wipe out Puerto Rico's debt balance. Has he done that yet?
My, you're the wry one. Of course not, he just wants them to go away
>> biggest hurricanes ever to hit any part of the US made a bad situation
>> far worse.
>
>When the hurricane happened, the President said that he will
>wipe out Puerto Rico's debt balance. Has he done that yet?
because they're, you know, not like us.
A financial control board called PROMESA that was set up in 2016
oversees the island's finances. This podcast has an interesting
interview with PROMESA's executive director, who sounds quite
reasonable and is doing what she can with what she's got, but what
Puerto Rico needs is vast amounts of disaster and development aid,
like what they'd get if they were a state.
https://slate.com/business/2019/04/slate-money-talks-to-natalie-jaresko.html
rnet...@gmail.com
Apr 21, 2019, 8:10:25 PM4/21/19
to
"Always on the lookout for those from the Land of my Fathers, it
is surprising as to how close to the Welsh accent is the Indian's
English pronunciation."
Hm!! Somewhere in Kipling's writings there is a comment to the effect that one of the characters spoke "Bombay Welsh". I had taken that as Kipling waxing snarky, but in view of your comment, perhaps he was simply relating a fact.
is surprising as to how close to the Welsh accent is the Indian's
English pronunciation."
none sidd
Apr 22, 2019, 2:23:56 AM4/22/19
to
In article <0c470319-b0a4-42eb...@googlegroups.com>,
children in schools would learn
a)hindi
b)the state language if different from hindi
c)english
so, for example, a child in bombay would learn hindi, marathi and
english
additionally, in high school, there was usually a choice of yet another
language. These might lead to oddballs, like french and sanskrit as choices
in high school depending on instructor availability.
as far as the medium of instruction went there were schools that used
hindi, or the state language or english.
at college level the medium was usually english.
sidd
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 7:24:26 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>Really, the correct approach would be for India to recognize all the
>regional languages as official, so that speakers of Punjabi or Malayalam
>would have full access to all educational services, including those at the
>post-secondary level, in their own language. Those few who wish to engage
>in activities that require a second language can voluntarily learn one.
in the 1960s and 1970s that was the approach
>On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 7:24:26 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>Really, the correct approach would be for India to recognize all the
>regional languages as official, so that speakers of Punjabi or Malayalam
>would have full access to all educational services, including those at the
>post-secondary level, in their own language. Those few who wish to engage
>in activities that require a second language can voluntarily learn one.
children in schools would learn
a)hindi
b)the state language if different from hindi
c)english
so, for example, a child in bombay would learn hindi, marathi and
english
additionally, in high school, there was usually a choice of yet another
language. These might lead to oddballs, like french and sanskrit as choices
in high school depending on instructor availability.
as far as the medium of instruction went there were schools that used
hindi, or the state language or english.
at college level the medium was usually english.
sidd
none sidd
Apr 22, 2019, 2:27:47 AM4/22/19
to
In article <3e0d973b-c058-4602...@googlegroups.com>,
i have am always taken aback by indian english rhythm, emphasis and
intonation,
sidd
<rnet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hm!! Somewhere in Kipling's writings there is a comment to the effect
>that one of the characters spoke "Bombay Welsh". I had taken that as
>Kipling waxing snarky, but in view of your comment, perhaps he was
>simply relating a fact.
exactly. i have spent much time with those of the welsh persuation, and
>Hm!! Somewhere in Kipling's writings there is a comment to the effect
>that one of the characters spoke "Bombay Welsh". I had taken that as
>Kipling waxing snarky, but in view of your comment, perhaps he was
>simply relating a fact.
i have am always taken aback by indian english rhythm, emphasis and
intonation,
sidd
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