Did anybody ever build a Simon?
Derek Simmons
wonder if anybody ever actually built one. I've watched eBay and I
have searched websites, I only find references to magazine articles
and books. I also read that they sold schematics out of the back of
magazines. But other than the pictures on the cover of Radio
Electronics and Scientific American I have found any other pictures.
And I haven't found anyone else's accounts.
I was wondering if anybody ever actually built one? And if anybody had
the schematics or plans?
Here's a website with a lot of good information about Simon:
Mensanator
jmfbahciv
When I was in high school, 1964-1968, the chemistry teacher (male)
and some boys were building a computer in the chemistry room's
backroom. I never got to do any of that :-(. Only boys were
allowed.
/BAH
Michael Black
I did too, and someone did write an article about making that Simon in one
of the computer magazines, I think "Byte" and I think it was Steve
Ciarcia. But it was just the buttons and lights, and it was plugged into
a computer and so really the "building" was writing the software.
I've never heard of this Simon computer before. I remember articles way
back in the seventies that were either early articles about making your
own computer ("73" ran an article in the November 1972 issue that was more
an idea piece about making your own computer, mapping out what would be
needed) and about 1978 Byte ran an article about the Amateur Computing
Society (the people who had their own computer before microprocessors came
along, they either scored a surplus machine or built something up from
transistors or low integration ICs), and nothing about this 1950 RE
article sounds familiar.
So either it made no impact, or it was too early, the people who wanted
their own computers came along later. That was a very different time,
many of the hobby magazines never had references to other articles and
getting an old article, if you knew about it, might have been troublesome
at best. So unless you were reading the magazine at the time, you were
likely unaware of it. And it doesn't seem to have left much of an impact
if nobody decades later mentioned it.
Michael
Mensanator
Their loss.
I was once asked by my employer to re-write the
test we gave to prospective employees. I changed
the emphasis to very basic electronics and logic,
stuff that anyone fresh out of school or the
military ought to know. (I had seen MUCH harder
tests in my own job interviews, such as the guy
who asked me to explain the schematic of a CAT
scanner. Needless to say. I didn't get that job.
OTOH, not quite as easy as the test at Underwriters
Labs, where I was told I was the first person
who correctly figured out how to connect a Watt
meter. I WAS offered a job there but turned it down.)
Well, the test didn't work out well, one guy
stormed out threatening to sue over for
discrimination (he couldn't figure out the
voltage drop over a pair of terminating
resistors without his calculator.)
OTOH, another candidate was handed a page from
a Phase-Encoder tape formatter. All I asked was
how a T-flipflop worked. To my surprise, the
candidate said "Oh, this is a parity-generator
circuit."
SHE got hired!
>
> /BAH
Charles Richmond
Are you sure it was *not* in woodworking or auto shop??? ;-)
What kind of materials could high schools get in 1964-1968 that
could be used to build any kind of computer??? If these "boys" had
been successful, I would think that the *all* of the students
would get to see the result.
There is a book that came out in 1967 titled:
_How to Build a Working Digital Computer_
This book shows how to build a rudimentary computer using paper
clips and a cylindrical oatmeal box, among other things. You can
download the .pdf file of this book from BitSavers:
This book is useful as a learning experience for kids more than a
computer, and *not* a bad learning experience at that. Certainly
much of the "case" of the computer could be built in woodshop.
--
+----------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond |
| |
| plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com |
+----------------------------------------+
Charles Richmond
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
> I did too, and someone did write an article about making that Simon in
> one of the computer magazines, I think "Byte" and I think it was Steve
> Ciarcia. But it was just the buttons and lights, and it was plugged
> into a computer and so really the "building" was writing the software.
>
> I've never heard of this Simon computer before. I remember articles way
> back in the seventies that were either early articles about making your
> own computer ("73" ran an article in the November 1972 issue that was
> more an idea piece about making your own computer, mapping out what
> would be needed) and about 1978 Byte ran an article about the Amateur
> Computing Society (the people who had their own computer before
> microprocessors came along, they either scored a surplus machine or
> built something up from transistors or low integration ICs), and nothing
> about this 1950 RE article sounds familiar.
>
> So either it made no impact, or it was too early, the people who wanted
> their own computers came along later. That was a very different time,
> many of the hobby magazines never had references to other articles and
> getting an old article, if you knew about it, might have been
> troublesome at best. So unless you were reading the magazine at the
> time, you were likely unaware of it. And it doesn't seem to have left
> much of an impact if nobody decades later mentioned it.
>
ISTM that Don Lancaster was building a computer for himself in the
very early 1970's. It was made of small and medium scale
integration IC's and took up the better part of a room. I vaguely
recall seeing an article about this in a computer hobby or
electronics magazine.
Of course, this project was *very* expensive and required a *lot*
of expertise. It is *not* anywhere near a computer that would be
for most folks.
Michael Black
I suspect that was a scam done on me.
Around 1969, maybe 1970, the local paper had an photo of two kids who'd
"built their own computer". It never said how much of a computer, and the
photo in my mind did have something cylindrical. It was at that point
that I wanted my own computer, never giving thought to what I'd do with it
or how much of a computer I'd want. And that did cause me to pursue
electronics as a hobby, rather than a more general science interest that
I'd had up to that time.
Of course, it was only a wish. I never pursued building a computer, and
never gave it any thought until the Altair hit the cover of Popular
Electronics, and then it was four years before I actually got a small
computer.
But it was years later, maybe even as recent as a decade ago, that I
realized that computer in the photo in the paper that the two
kids had built was rudimentary, and likely wasn't as spectacular a feat
for them as the article made it sound at the time.
And it likely was built from that book, or some similar book, rather than
that they designed it.
So likely that article was misleading, by not saying much it suggested a
lot more than was really there, and got me wanting a computer at a time
when few were considering it.
Michael
Michael Black
I don't think Don Lancaster ever had that much interest in computers, the
original TV Typewriter didn't even have an interface to hook it up to a
computer.
You may have been thinking of Roger Amidon, who built the "Spider" early
on. It was on the cover of Byte in early 1977 (I'm pretty sure it was
that year) this mass of wires draped off his desk. He'd built it like
that so there was room to work on it, and then was stuck with the computer
taking over the desk because he feared moving it. He had built it
relatively early on, the photo at that point was because there was
suddenly a lot more interest in it.
The Amateur Computing Society was a select group. I think it was 1978
that Byte had the article about it, by a sort of well known name that
doesn't come to mind at the moment. It portrayed a variety of users, some
did get surplus, some likely got minicomputers and some built very limited
computers of the sort you mention, but at the time were very impressive.
Since you had to build up everything at that point, it meant a whole lot
more than when the microprocessor came along.
Jim Huffman wrote that November 1972 article in "73", and as I said it
wasn't a construction article, but it may have been one of the more
comprehensive hobbyist articles on computers at the time, certainly in
anything more than a newsletter. It preceeded, barely, the arrival of
the microprocessor, and in talking about memory, surplus core memory was
one of the suggestions. It's an odd article, since nobody talks about it,
yet it was there before the rest. And it shows that Wayne Green might not
have been jumping on the bandwagon to run computer articles in 1975 and
launch Byte, he ran a computer article when virtually nobody was
interested.
Michael
Mensanator
Long before I got a computer, I tried to make a set of electronic
dice.
The display was switch selectable to 2 - 12 or 1 - 10 using counters,
comparators, etc. Worked beautifully on the breadboard. Alas,
something
went wrong when I transferred the circuit to a wire wrap board.
Eventually,
I lost interest and put it aside and never got it to work.
Years later, I realized that had it worked, it would have been wrong.
You don't emulate dice by counting from 2 to 12. You run two counters
of 1 to 6 and add them together in order to get the proper
distribution.
Writing programs turned out to be a lot easier.
>
> Michael
radi...@gmail.com
... not the good ole days.
Some of those relay computers just beautifully crafted. I'll never
forget playing tic-tac-toe against a relay computer in some museum
when I was a small child. Maybe either the Franklin Institute or the
Ontario Science Center. It sure made an impression.
Another "work of art" is Professor Harry Porters' relay computer:
http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/
or on youtube:
Joe Pfeiffer
When I was a kid I *really* wanted to build a relay computer. Didn't
have a source for a gazillion relays on my budget of roughly $1.49,
unfortunately.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
Charles Richmond
It's easy to understand why the media made a "big deal" of two
kids "building their own computer". Computers back in the 60's
were mysterious and arcane devices to most people. The masses
considered computer programming a "black art", more magic than
science. After all, computers seemed powerful, and most people had
little understanding of what they really were.
Perhaps your involvement in computers was "kismet"...
Charles Richmond
> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>
>> ISTM that Don Lancaster was building a computer for himself in the
>> very early 1970's. It was made of small and medium scale integration
>> IC's and took up the better part of a room. I vaguely recall seeing an
>> article about this in a computer hobby or electronics magazine.
>>
>> Of course, this project was *very* expensive and required a *lot* of
>> expertise. It is *not* anywhere near a computer that would be for most
>> folks.
>>
> I don't think Don Lancaster ever had that much interest in computers,
> the original TV Typewriter didn't even have an interface to hook it up
> to a computer.
>
Yes, I think I got confused... I believe now that it was Don
Tarbell that build his own computer out of small and medium scale
intergation IC's in the early 70's.
> You may have been thinking of Roger Amidon, who built the "Spider" early
> on. It was on the cover of Byte in early 1977 (I'm pretty sure it was
> that year) this mass of wires draped off his desk. He'd built it like
> that so there was room to work on it, and then was stuck with the
> computer taking over the desk because he feared moving it. He had built
> it relatively early on, the photo at that point was because there was
> suddenly a lot more interest in it.
>
I am *not* familiar with Roger Amidon. I'll have to check him out.
It seems that there is quite of bit of interference on Google with
others named Roger Amidon, so this may be difficult...
> The Amateur Computing Society was a select group. I think it was 1978
> that Byte had the article about it, by a sort of well known name that
> doesn't come to mind at the moment. It portrayed a variety of users,
> some did get surplus, some likely got minicomputers and some built very
> limited
> computers of the sort you mention, but at the time were very impressive.
> Since you had to build up everything at that point, it meant a whole lot
> more than when the microprocessor came along.
>
Yes, these folks built their computers almost "from the ground
up". They designed the CPU and all the data pathways to and from
the ALU. All that stuff...
> Jim Huffman wrote that November 1972 article in "73", and as I said it
> wasn't a construction article, but it may have been one of the more
> comprehensive hobbyist articles on computers at the time, certainly in
> anything more than a newsletter. It preceeded, barely, the arrival of
> the microprocessor, and in talking about memory, surplus core memory was
> one of the suggestions. It's an odd article, since nobody talks about
> it, yet it was there before the rest. And it shows that Wayne Green
> might not have been jumping on the bandwagon to run computer articles in
> 1975 and launch Byte, he ran a computer article when virtually nobody
> was interested.
>
I am also *not* familiar with Jim Huffman. I know something about
David Huffman of "Huffman encoding" fame...
I think of Wayne Green "jumping on the bandwagon" only in the
sense that he saw a definite trend and took advantage of it to
create good magazines. Microcomputers would still have been a "big
thing" without Wayne Green, but we hobbyists sure learned a lot
from his magazines and got great enjoyment from them. I have *no*
problem with Wayne Green making money from the magazines. These
magazines were certainly worth a lot to hobbyists.
Charles Richmond
> jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Derek Simmons wrote:
>>> Edmund Berkeley's Simon is credited as the first home computer but I
>>> wonder if anybody ever actually built one. I've watched eBay and I
>>> have searched websites, I only find references to magazine articles
>>> and books. I also read that they sold schematics out of the back of
>>> magazines. But other than the pictures on the cover of Radio
>>> Electronics and Scientific American I have found any other pictures.
>>> And I haven't found anyone else's accounts.
>>>
>>> I was wondering if anybody ever actually built one? And if anybody had
>>> the schematics or plans?
>>>
>>> Here's a website with a lot of good information about Simon:
>>>
>>> http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/index.html
>>
>> When I was in high school, 1964-1968, the chemistry teacher (male)
>> and some boys were building a computer in the chemistry room's
>> backroom. I never got to do any of that :-(. Only boys were
>> allowed.
>>
>> /BAH
>
> ... not the good ole days.
>
> Some of those relay computers just beautifully crafted. I'll never
> forget playing tic-tac-toe against a relay computer in some museum when
> I was a small child. Maybe either the Franklin Institute or the Ontario
> Science Center. It sure made an impression.
>
When I was in the third grade, our class went on a field trip to
the local telephone exchange. They had a "tic-tac-toe computer" on
display and we got to try it. It was impressive to a third grader.
Another more recent "tic-tac-toe computer" was the Tinkertoy Computer:
http://www.retrothing.com/2006/12/the_tinkertoy_c.html
> Another "work of art" is Professor Harry Porters' relay computer:
>
> http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/
>
> or on youtube:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3wPBcmSb2U&feature=related
Somewhere on YouTube, there is a video of a reconstruction of
Zuse's Z3 relay computer... and it is shown calculating something.
The chatter of the relays was interesting to me. I could see how
someone familiar with the machine, might be able to tell what
calculations it was doing just based on the relay chatter.
Jorgen Grahn
> jmfbahciv wrote:
>> When I was in high school, 1964-1968, the chemistry teacher (male)
>> and some boys were building a computer in the chemistry room's
>> backroom. I never got to do any of that :-(. Only boys were
>> allowed.
>
> Are you sure it was *not* in woodworking or auto shop??? ;-)
>
>
> What kind of materials could high schools get in 1964-1968 that
> could be used to build any kind of computer???
It would have been cool if it had been a chemical computer.
Litmus paper strips for memory, maybe?
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Dave Wade
"Charles Richmond" <fri...@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:hd4mib$d3a$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Derek Simmons wrote:
>>> Edmund Berkeley's Simon is credited as the first home computer but I
>>> wonder if anybody ever actually built one. I've watched eBay and I
>>> have searched websites, I only find references to magazine articles
>>> and books. I also read that they sold schematics out of the back of
>>> magazines. But other than the pictures on the cover of Radio
>>> Electronics and Scientific American I have found any other pictures.
>>> And I haven't found anyone else's accounts.
>>>
>>> I was wondering if anybody ever actually built one? And if anybody had
>>> the schematics or plans?
>>>
>>> Here's a website with a lot of good information about Simon:
>>>
>>> http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/index.html
>>
>> When I was in high school, 1964-1968, the chemistry teacher (male)
>> and some boys were building a computer in the chemistry room's
>> backroom. I never got to do any of that :-(. Only boys were
>> allowed.
>>
>
> Are you sure it was *not* in woodworking or auto shop??? ;-)
>
>
> What kind of materials could high schools get in 1964-1968 that could be
> used to build any kind of computer??? If these "boys" had been successful,
> I would think that the *all* of the students would get to see the result.
>
Well the "school" I went to , which was originally Darlington Grammar School
for Boys but was a mixed sex 6th form college when I went (16-19 years old
students) had a computer of sorts which had been built some time prior to
1970. I can't remember the exact details of word length or memory size but
it was a proper computer, with an accumulator, program counter etc.
What I can remember it is that it was built to a modular design. Each bit of
memory was a flip-flop constructed from a pair of "red spot" transistors
with a screw in "torch" (cycle lamp) bulb to indicate its state. The machine
was basically a serial design and was filled slowly by using a set of
switches to set the address and a couple of push buttons which could toggle
a "1" or "0" into a word of memory. You could set the clock to three
different speeds so its working could be observed.
Once you had a working program on this you were allowed to move on to coding
in Fortran II, posting your coding forms off to a nearby technical college.
Peter Flass
>
> Around 1969, maybe 1970, the local paper had an photo of two kids who'd
> "built their own computer". It never said how much of a computer, and the
> photo in my mind did have something cylindrical. It was at that point
> that I wanted my own computer, never giving thought to what I'd do with
> it or how much of a computer I'd want. And that did cause me to pursue
> electronics as a hobby, rather than a more general science interest that
> I'd had up to that time.
>
> Of course, it was only a wish. I never pursued building a computer, and
> never gave it any thought until the Altair hit the cover of Popular
> Electronics, and then it was four years before I actually got a small
> computer.
>
> But it was years later, maybe even as recent as a decade ago, that I
> realized that computer in the photo in the paper that the two kids had
> built was rudimentary, and likely wasn't as spectacular a feat for them
> as the article made it sound at the time.
>
> And it likely was built from that book, or some similar book, rather
> than that they designed it.
>
> So likely that article was misleading, by not saying much it suggested a
> lot more than was really there, and got me wanting a computer at a time
> when few were considering it.
>
When I was in HS I attended a science fair. One student had built an
analog computer. When he demonstrated it I thought "What? Hos is
*that* a computer?"
Peter Flass
Like the radio on top of the 1401.
jmfbahciv
> On Nov 7, 6:37 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>> Derek Simmons wrote:
>>> Edmund Berkeley's Simon is credited as the first home computer but I
>>> wonder if anybody ever actually built one. I've watched eBay and I
>>> have searched websites, I only find references to magazine articles
>>> and books. I also read that they sold schematics out of the back of
>>> magazines. But other than the pictures on the cover of Radio
>>> Electronics and Scientific American I have found any other pictures.
>>> And I haven't found anyone else's accounts.
>>> I was wondering if anybody ever actually built one? And if anybody had
>>> the schematics or plans?
>>> Here's a website with a lot of good information about Simon:
>>> http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/index.html
>> When I was in high school, 1964-1968, the chemistry teacher (male)
>> and some boys were building a computer in the chemistry room's
>> backroom. I never got to do any of that :-(. Only boys were
>> allowed.
>
> Their loss.
No. My loss. I might have had a better understanding of the
hardware if I'd played with it.
>
> I was once asked by my employer to re-write the
> test we gave to prospective employees. I changed
> the emphasis to very basic electronics and logic,
> stuff that anyone fresh out of school or the
> military ought to know. (I had seen MUCH harder
> tests in my own job interviews, such as the guy
> who asked me to explain the schematic of a CAT
> scanner. Needless to say. I didn't get that job.
> OTOH, not quite as easy as the test at Underwriters
> Labs, where I was told I was the first person
> who correctly figured out how to connect a Watt
> meter. I WAS offered a job there but turned it down.)
>
> Well, the test didn't work out well, one guy
> stormed out threatening to sue over for
> discrimination (he couldn't figure out the
> voltage drop over a pair of terminating
> resistors without his calculator.)
What kind of discrimination? Knowledge?
jmfbahciv
> jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Derek Simmons wrote:
>>> Edmund Berkeley's Simon is credited as the first home computer but I
>>> wonder if anybody ever actually built one. I've watched eBay and I
>>> have searched websites, I only find references to magazine articles
>>> and books. I also read that they sold schematics out of the back of
>>> magazines. But other than the pictures on the cover of Radio
>>> Electronics and Scientific American I have found any other pictures.
>>> And I haven't found anyone else's accounts.
>>>
>>> I was wondering if anybody ever actually built one? And if anybody had
>>> the schematics or plans?
>>>
>>> Here's a website with a lot of good information about Simon:
>>>
>>> http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/index.html
>>
>> When I was in high school, 1964-1968, the chemistry teacher (male)
>> and some boys were building a computer in the chemistry room's
>> backroom. I never got to do any of that :-(. Only boys were
>> allowed.
>>
>
> Are you sure it was *not* in woodworking or auto shop??? ;-)
Sigh! That's four. Yes, I'm sure. I wasn't allowed in those
either.
>
>
> What kind of materials could high schools get in 1964-1968 that could be
> used to build any kind of computer??? If these "boys" had been
> successful, I would think that the *all* of the students would get to
> see the result.
I have no idea. I didn't get to see it, did I?
>
> There is a book that came out in 1967 titled:
>
> _How to Build a Working Digital Computer_
>
>
> This book shows how to build a rudimentary computer using paper clips
> and a cylindrical oatmeal box, among other things. You can download the
> .pdf file of this book from BitSavers:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/63fuo6
>
>
> This book is useful as a learning experience for kids more than a
> computer, and *not* a bad learning experience at that. Certainly much of
> the "case" of the computer could be built in woodshop.
>
Or the chemistry lab in the backroom.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> On Sat, 2009-11-07, Charles Richmond wrote:
>> jmfbahciv wrote:
> ...
>>> When I was in high school, 1964-1968, the chemistry teacher (male)
>>> and some boys were building a computer in the chemistry room's
>>> backroom. I never got to do any of that :-(. Only boys were
>>> allowed.
>> Are you sure it was *not* in woodworking or auto shop??? ;-)
>>
>>
>> What kind of materials could high schools get in 1964-1968 that
>> could be used to build any kind of computer???
>
> It would have been cool if it had been a chemical computer.
> Litmus paper strips for memory, maybe?
>
long. It would end up being an analog computer because the
acid/base detections would be in a range rather than on/off.
Now you may throw cold water on the system and cause
a NOOP.
/BAH
Mensanator
Racial. But I gave the same test to everyone,
black, white, male, female, etc. I think he would
have had a hard time proving it in court.
Mensanator
Have you ever actually *used* an analog computer?
Joe Pfeiffer
How reasonable his response was depended on the computer -- I built an
analog computer as a kid that consisted of three potentiometers, a
meter, and a battery. You'd set two pots to represent numbers, the
meter reading would be their sum (the third one was to calibrate it).
On the other hand, there's a guy in town here who buys and sells surplus
electronics; he's got a Heathkit analog computer. I'd love that thing,
but it's not for sale.
Roland Hutchinson
> Mensanator <mensa...@aol.com> writes:
>
>> On Nov 8, 6:26�am, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Michael Black wrote:
>>>
>>> When I was in HS I attended a science fair. �One student had built an
>>> analog computer. �When he demonstrated it I thought "What? �Hos is
>>> *that* a computer?"
>>
>> Have you ever actually *used* an analog computer?
>
> How reasonable his response was depended on the computer -- I built an
> analog computer as a kid that consisted of three potentiometers, a
> meter, and a battery. You'd set two pots to represent numbers, the
> meter reading would be their sum (the third one was to calibrate it).
I did one of those (well, similar -- you were meant to adjust the third
pot until the meter read null) for a science fair project -- but I
couldn't get it to work.
That may have been precisely when I decided I wasn't cut out to be a
Hardware Guy.
--
Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Peter Flass
Nope. It doesn't seem like it would be much fun.
John Varela
wrote:
> Charles Richmond wrote:
>
> > Somewhere on YouTube, there is a video of a reconstruction of Zuse's Z3
> > relay computer... and it is shown calculating something. The chatter of
> > the relays was interesting to me. I could see how someone familiar with
> > the machine, might be able to tell what calculations it was doing just
> > based on the relay chatter.
>
> Like the radio on top of the 1401.
As I have reported here before, a sound generator was built into the
AN/FSQ-7 SAGE air defense computer. It worked on bit changes in the
accumulator, or something like that. Silence meant the machine was
halted; repeated sound meant a loop. The sound was piped all around
the test areas of Building F at Lincoln Lab. Programs existed to
play carols at Christmas time.
--
John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email
Peter Flass
This gave me an idea, and I'll contribute it here for anyone to use for
free;-)
Computer operators still exist, although these days they often have
little to do. The job is more like a night watchman: be there in case.
Although this doesn't apply to my current employer, I'm told they
often fill in the time between events by studying, reading, watching TV,
playing games, etc.
I think the vendors of performance monitoring software are missing a
whole dimension by not making more used to sound. If an operator became
used to certain background sounds, any change would probably get their
attention immediately. The monitors could, for example, play the sound
of a single cricket when they system is idle, and have a range from
there to the howl of a wounded wolf when something requires immediate
attention.
Charles Richmond
Sodium and water would be an HCF instruction (halt and catch
fire). ;-)
Mensanator
> On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:39:47 UTC, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Charles Richmond wrote:
>
> > > Somewhere on YouTube, there is a video of a reconstruction of Zuse's Z3
> > > relay computer... and it is shown calculating something. The chatter of
> > > the relays was interesting to me. I could see how someone familiar with
> > > the machine, might be able to tell what calculations it was doing just
> > > based on the relay chatter.
>
> > Like the radio on top of the 1401.
>
> As I have reported here before, a sound generator was built into the
> AN/FSQ-7 SAGE air defense computer. �It worked on bit changes in the
> accumulator, or something like that. �Silence meant the machine was
> halted; repeated sound meant a loop. �The sound was piped all around
> the test areas of Building F at Lincoln Lab. �Programs existed to
> play carols at Christmas time.
One day, I noticed that the General Automation SPC-16
had a pin on the back of the front panel that was a
digital to analog output. It summed the voltages from
the blinken' lights. I had no idea what it's purpose
was, but *I* hooked it to a voltage controlled oscillator
I picked up at Radio Shack. Turned out not to be very
useful to create music. The blinken' lights were simply
incandescent bulbs and I suspect there was alot of variance
in their resistance (or maybe the drivers varied a lot)
because there was a lot of variance in the brightness of
the bulbs, so the voltage sum varied quite a lot.
Mensanator
But interesting. Each operational amplifier would
be a term in a differential equation. The op-amps
were "programmed" by selecting various resistances
and capacitances in the feedback circuit. Output was
to an X-Y plotter. The only problem I remember was
an elevator solution to minimize the time to reach
the floor while also minimizing the bounce before
coming to a stop, not easy to do as the first tended
to maximize the second and vice versa. Oh, and you
also had the goal of minimizing the settling time.
I've ridden on elevators where that test wasn't passed.
Peter Flass
Now they've invented fuzzy logic for these kinds of problems.
jmfbahciv
We used sounds to tell if a crash was about to happen. As the clickety
clacks of the TTYs became silent, you knew that the system was
becoming wedged. There were a couple of times when only one person
was able to continue typing. Everybody would glar^look at the
lucky one, usually hoping s/he (but usually a he) would not manage
EX$$ before the ^G, ^G, ^G sounds came from the CTY.
After the VTnns became the TTY du jour, we used the sounds of
the disks to give pending crash clues.
/BAH
Joe Pfeiffer
> Mensanator wrote:
>>
>> But interesting. Each operational amplifier would
>> be a term in a differential equation. The op-amps
>> were "programmed" by selecting various resistances
>> and capacitances in the feedback circuit. Output was
>> to an X-Y plotter. The only problem I remember was
>> an elevator solution to minimize the time to reach
>> the floor while also minimizing the bounce before
>> coming to a stop, not easy to do as the first tended
>> to maximize the second and vice versa. Oh, and you
>> also had the goal of minimizing the settling time.
>>
>> I've ridden on elevators where that test wasn't passed.
>
> Now they've invented fuzzy logic for these kinds of problems.
The problem he described isn't one of picking a control strategy, it's
one of balancing goals.
Charles Richmond
> On Nov 8, 1:00�pm, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Mensanator wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Have you ever actually *used* an analog computer?
>>>
>> Nope. �It doesn't seem like it would be much fun.
>
> But interesting. Each operational amplifier would
> be a term in a differential equation. The op-amps
> were "programmed" by selecting various resistances
> and capacitances in the feedback circuit. Output was
> to an X-Y plotter. The only problem I remember was
> an elevator solution to minimize the time to reach
> the floor while also minimizing the bounce before
> coming to a stop, not easy to do as the first tended
> to maximize the second and vice versa. Oh, and you
> also had the goal of minimizing the settling time.
>
> I've ridden on elevators where that test wasn't passed.
The only situation where I got to see an analog computer was in a
lab in my sophomore year in college.
The analog computer was a desktop unit (actually on a lab table)
that had a facing side covered with banana jacks, with
illustrations on the side indicating what was behind those jacks.
Connections were made by dual banana plugs which had dual banana
jacks on the back of them. There were patch cords of different
lengths, with banana jacks on each end. Each different length of
patch cord was a different color. The op amps, resisters and
capacitors were contained *inside* the desktop unit, and the patch
cords connected sections on different sides of the unit.
In this way, problems could be "wired up". ISTM that the output we
had was on an oscilloscope.
You can find out more about analog computers at the Analog
Computer Museum:
http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog/
Dave Wade
"Peter Flass" <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hd74gs$4ho$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Great fun can be had with an anaolog computer!
Peter Flass
The one I saw used a bed of water (probably with salt) to model
some-equation-or-other. The inputs were indicated in the bottom of the
tank. The user put a probe on the desired value and read the result off
a VOM.
John Varela
<fri...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> The only situation where I got to see an analog computer was in a
> lab in my sophomore year in college.
One of my early jobs was at the Sperry Phoenix company; I worked on
a project to develop drone controls for the F80 fighter, which was
to be used as a target aircraft for Bomarc missiles. Others, not I,
had an elaborate analog computer that modeled the aircraft. I
recall it as about 15 or 20 feet of racks of vacuum tubes, pots,
synchros, and whatnot, into which the actual drone control equipment
was plugged.
One day the story went around the factory that the Drone Controls
Department had crashed an F80. It was only on the simulator.
radi...@gmail.com
The Penn State Hybrid Computer Lab was a PDP-10 front-ending an analog
computer. There were Digital-to-analog converters and
Analog-to-digital converters in-between. I had a class where we had
to solve some kind of a problem using both the analog and Digital
computer.
I remember that one person made a missile control system that tried to
hit an aircraft. Another person made an anti-missile control system
to hit a missile. After the class someone had the bright idea to put
it all together - aircraft, missile, and anti-missile.
It was kinda cool watching things try to chase and dodge each other.
Everything was displayed on the old DEC 340?? Display. (It was the
big round vector display with light pen).
Rob.
Henk Siewert
YES! A Western Electric (Bell lab.) to fire Nike Hercules Anti Aircraft
missiles. in 1967 en 1968. We fired real ones from Crete ,Souda Bay, NAMFI
installation near Gania.
How about that...
(And we hit the target...)
HenkSWT
Mensanator
> >Have you ever actually *used* an analog computer?
>
> YES! A Western Electric (Bell lab.) to fire Nike Hercules Anti Aircraft
> missiles. in 1967 en 1968. We fired real ones from Crete ,Souda Bay, NAMFI
> installation near Gania.
> How about that...
Well, I gues that puts to rest the notion that
"It doesn't seem like it would be much fun."
>
Dave Wade
"Henk Siewert" <s...@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
news:4af94733$0$28144$5fc...@news.tiscali.nl...
>>Have you ever actually *used* an analog computer?
>
Yes, as a Maths Undergrad. We had more Analogue Computers than digital ones,
and they were easily accessible as single users. We simulated car suspension
systems, pool balls, projectiles etc. Great fun as you could adjust the
parameters via knobs and watch the system go into resonant oscillation...
Morten Reistad
>Peter Flass wrote:
>> John Varela wrote:
>>> On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:39:47 UTC, Peter Flass <Peter...@Yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>> This gave me an idea, and I'll contribute it here for anyone to use for
>> free;-)
>>
>> Computer operators still exist, although these days they often have
>> little to do. The job is more like a night watchman: be there in case.
>> Although this doesn't apply to my current employer, I'm told they
>> often fill in the time between events by studying, reading, watching TV,
>> playing games, etc.
I know several people who take night shifts looking after telecom
networks. One person on the NOC for HUGE networks. That is a stellar
position to learn a lot about the networks. You have read-only access
to absolutly everything; and you have sealed envelopes with the root
passwords for most of it as well.
>> I think the vendors of performance monitoring software are missing a
>> whole dimension by not making more used to sound. If an operator became
>> used to certain background sounds, any change would probably get their
>> attention immediately. The monitors could, for example, play the sound
>> of a single cricket when they system is idle, and have a range from
>> there to the howl of a wounded wolf when something requires immediate
>> attention.
We did this at PPOE. We went a lot further.
We mixed a sound stream from ping times, packet loss, snmp alarms,
ntp jitter (ntp is amazingly good at finding network components that
are about to fail) and general systems status. Around 2800 lines, 5k
modems, 280 routers, 100 switches, 400 servers.
ping etc played happy sounds, but went off key if the ping times
lagged. We generated a hum from ntp, with the jitter as key to the
frequency. Game-show sounds for lines going up and down, and small
chirps for the servers, going sour when performance was not up to
grabs.
The sound played when a trunk went down was amazing. 50+ "bad gameshow"
sounds in slightly different pitches, and the friendly slightly polyphonic
humming&chirping got a distinct sour component.
Instant "Oh, Sh*t" from operators. Operators and support insisted on
having that sound stream when they had listened to it for a few hours.
We even put it as one of the three background sound channels on the
PABX, so you could call in to hear it.
It was all generated on a very simple Sun soundcard in an ancient
3/60 pizza box. Just mixing by adding in alaw and slinear.
>We used sounds to tell if a crash was about to happen. As the clickety
>clacks of the TTYs became silent, you knew that the system was
>becoming wedged. There were a couple of times when only one person
>was able to continue typing. Everybody would glar^look at the
>lucky one, usually hoping s/he (but usually a he) would not manage
>EX$$ before the ^G, ^G, ^G sounds came from the CTY.
>
>After the VTnns became the TTY du jour, we used the sounds of
>the disks to give pending crash clues.
The LA120s were most reliable indicators. You could hear if something
was wrong.
The ^G^G^G sounding from 140 different terminals at once told
everyone in the building that they could skip terminal sessions for
a few hours.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
Charles Richmond <fri...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>radi...@gmail.com wrote:
>> jmfbahciv wrote:
>
>http://www.retrothing.com/2006/12/the_tinkertoy_c.html
>
>
>> Another "work of art" is Professor Harry Porters' relay computer:
>>
>> http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/
>>
>> or on youtube:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3wPBcmSb2U&feature=related
>
>Somewhere on YouTube, there is a video of a reconstruction of
>Zuse's Z3 relay computer... and it is shown calculating something.
>The chatter of the relays was interesting to me. I could see how
>someone familiar with the machine, might be able to tell what
>calculations it was doing just based on the relay chatter.
The PDP10 operators both in Bergen and Oslo always had a
little AM radio handy, so they could listen in to what the
"relays" were doing whenever they had an unresponsive system.
They could detect wedged, crashed, looping and page-thrashing
systems in seconds by listening to the AM static. They could
also detect floating-point intensive code.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
A good friend of mine has a large picture of a somewhat
derelict bulk freighter prominently on display in his hallway.
When asked about what that picture is doing there, or even
just for some looks; he responds "I sunk that ship":
He was previously first artillery officer on a sub.
-- mrr
jmfbahciv
/BAH
Patrick Scheible
Tim Shoppa
> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009, Charles Richmond wrote:
> > Michael Black wrote:
>
> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
> >> I did too, and someone did write an article about making that Simon in one
> >> of the computer magazines, I think "Byte" and I think it was Steve Ciarcia.
> >> But it was just the buttons and lights, and it was plugged into a computer
> >> and so really the "building" was writing the software.
>
> >> I've never heard of this Simon computer before. I remember articles way
> >> back in the seventies that were either early articles about making your own
> >> computer ("73" ran an article in the November 1972 issue that was more an
> >> idea piece about making your own computer, mapping out what would be
> >> needed) and about 1978 Byte ran an article about the Amateur Computing
> >> Society (the people who had their own computer before microprocessors came
> >> along, they either scored a surplus machine or built something up from
> >> transistors or low integration ICs), and nothing about this 1950 RE article
> >> sounds familiar.
>
> >> So either it made no impact, or it was too early, the people who wanted
> >> their own computers came along later. That was a very different time, many
> >> of the hobby magazines never had references to other articles and getting
> >> an old article, if you knew about it, might have been troublesome at best.
> >> So unless you were reading the magazine at the time, you were likely
> >> unaware of it. And it doesn't seem to have left much of an impact if nobody
> >> decades later mentioned it.
>
> > ISTM that Don Lancaster was building a computer for himself in the very early
> > 1970's. It was made of small and medium scale integration IC's and took up
> > the better part of a room. I vaguely recall seeing an article about this in a
> > computer hobby or electronics magazine.
>
> > Of course, this project was *very* expensive and required a *lot* of
> > expertise. It is *not* anywhere near a computer that would be for most folks.
>
> I don't think Don Lancaster ever had that much interest in computers, the
> original TV Typewriter didn't even have an interface to hook it up to a
> computer.
>
> You may have been thinking of Roger Amidon, who built the "Spider" early
> on. It was on the cover of Byte in early 1977 (I'm pretty sure it was
> that year) this mass of wires draped off his desk. He'd built it like
> that so there was room to work on it, and then was stuck with the computer
> taking over the desk because he feared moving it. He had built it
> relatively early on, the photo at that point was because there was
> suddenly a lot more interest in it.
>
> The Amateur Computing Society was a select group. I think it was 1978
> that Byte had the article about it, by a sort of well known name that
> doesn't come to mind at the moment. It portrayed a variety of users, some
> did get surplus, some likely got minicomputers and some built very limited
> computers of the sort you mention, but at the time were very impressive.
> Since you had to build up everything at that point, it meant a whole lot
> more than when the microprocessor came along.
I had heard of the ACS decades ago, probably through DECUS and David
Ahl connections. PDP-8 instruction set seemed to be a common
denominator.
Googling turns up http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n11/6_The_early_days_of_persona.php
"The early days of personal computers" by Stephen Gray who seems to be
the founder of the ACS.
It would be interesting to find the ACS Newsletters.
Tim.
Al Kossow
> It would be interesting to find the ACS Newsletters.
>
> Tim.
I believe he still makes copies available, if you dig
around on the web.
CHM has a set in the archives.
invalid
news:0b58f63a-c85e-42c7...@v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> I had heard of the ACS decades ago, probably through DECUS and David
> Ahl connections. PDP-8 instruction set seemed to be a common
>denominator.
>
>Googling turns up
>http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n11/6_The_early_days_of_persona.php
>"The early days of personal computers" by Stephen Gray who seems to be
>the founder of the ACS.
>
>
>It would be interesting to find the ACS Newsletters.
I've a handful of the journals from round about 1975 from the
Amateur Computing Club which was a British organisation .
Mensanator
> Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> writes:
> > Mensanator <mensana...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >On Nov 10, 4:57 am, "Henk Siewert" <s...@tiscali.nl> wrote:
> > >> >Have you ever actually *used* an analog computer?
>
> > >> YES! A Western Electric (Bell lab.) to fire Nike Hercules Anti Aircraft
> > >> missiles. in 1967 en 1968. We fired real ones from Crete ,Souda Bay, NAMFI
> > >> installation near Gania.
> > >> How about that...
>
> > >Well, I gues that puts to rest the notion that
> > >"It doesn't seem like it would be much fun."
>
> > A good friend of mine has a large picture of a somewhat
> > derelict bulk freighter prominently on display in his hallway.
>
> > When asked about what that picture is doing there, or even
> > just for some looks; he responds "I sunk that ship":
>
> > He was previously first artillery officer on a sub.
>
> Interesting. Would that have been in WW II?
Many derelict ships were sunk after WWII ended.
Wasn't the entire Japanese navy sunk at Bikini?
>
> -- Patrick
Morten Reistad
No, just exercise. But this was just next to USSR during the
cold war.
>Many derelict ships were sunk after WWII ended.
>
>Wasn't the entire Japanese navy sunk at Bikini?
The Nagato and the USS Saratoga are the largest ones there.
Sunk by the Baker blast. So that steel is not free from radioactive
contamination.
-- mrr
Michael Black
>> The Amateur Computing Society was a select group. I think it was 1978
>> that Byte had the article about it, by a sort of well known name that
>> doesn't come to mind at the moment. It portrayed a variety of users, some
>> did get surplus, some likely got minicomputers and some built very limited
>> computers of the sort you mention, but at the time were very impressive.
>> Since you had to build up everything at that point, it meant a whole lot
>> more than when the microprocessor came along.
>
> I had heard of the ACS decades ago, probably through DECUS and David
> Ahl connections. PDP-8 instruction set seemed to be a common
> denominator.
>
> Googling turns up http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n11/6_The_early_days_of_persona.php
> "The early days of personal computers" by Stephen Gray who seems to be
> the founder of the ACS.
>
> It would be interesting to find the ACS Newsletters.
>
> Tim.
>
And it provides the date of the article I remember in Byte, July 1978,
by Sol Libes.
Oddly, as I started to read it, it sounded familiar. I was going to say
it must cover the same territory as the Byte article, but then I noticed
the date. The November 1984 issue of Creative Computing was the 10th
anniversary issue, a thick issue, and had a lot of articles about the
early days of small computers. I've kept it on the shelf with the computer
history books rather than with the magazines (not that I ever had many
issues of Creative Comuting). It almost was the finale for the magazine,
it lasted only a year longer.
And I was wrong, it was the "Amateur Computer Society", not "Computing".
Michael
Michael Black
> Tim Shoppa wrote:
>
>> It would be interesting to find the ACS Newsletters.
>>
>> Tim.
>
> I believe he still makes copies available, if you dig
> around on the web.
>
Isn't it the same Stephen B. Gray that was lost at sea in his sailboat?
Michael
Joe Pfeiffer
> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>> Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>
>>> It would be interesting to find the ACS Newsletters.
>>>
>>> Tim.
>>
>> I believe he still makes copies available, if you dig
>> around on the web.
>>
> Isn't it the same Stephen B. Gray that was lost at sea in his sailboat?
Are you thinking of Jim Gray?
Michael Black
> Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Al Kossow wrote:
>>
>>> Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>>
>>>> It would be interesting to find the ACS Newsletters.
>>>>
>>>> Tim.
>>>
>>> I believe he still makes copies available, if you dig
>>> around on the web.
>>>
>> Isn't it the same Stephen B. Gray that was lost at sea in his sailboat?
>
> Are you thinking of Jim Gray?
That's it.
When he went missing, I thought I recognized the name, and thought it
explained who the Gray was that I remembered suddenly taking over the
computer column in Popular Electronics years ago. I honestly did think
they were the same person, even though they aren't.
So clearly Stephen B. Gray got the PE column because he'd already been
writing about hobby computers. The odd thing was, he just started writing
that column with no introduction.
Michael
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> writes:
> When he went missing, I thought I recognized the name, and thought it
> explained who the Gray was that I remembered suddenly taking over the
> computer column in Popular Electronics years ago. I honestly did
> think they were the same person, even though they aren't.
a couple posts on event celebrating jim last year:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008i.html#40 A Tribute to Jim Gray: Sometimes Nice Guys Do Finish First
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008i.html#50 Microsoft versus Digital Equipment Corporation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008i.html#51 Microsoft versus Digital Equipment Corporation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008p.html#27 Father Of Financial Dataprocessing
older thread on him going missing:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#4 Jim Gray Is Missing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#6 Jim Gray Is Missing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#8 Jim Gray Is Missing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#17 Jim Gray Is Missing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#33 Jim Gray Is Missing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007g.html#28 Jim Gray Is Missing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007i.html#68 A tribute to Jim Gray
and then
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008d.html#25 Remembering The Search For Jim Gray, A Year Later
--
40+yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970
Tim Shoppa
> So likely that article was misleading, by not saying much it suggested a
> lot more than was really there, and got me wanting a computer at a time
> when few were considering it.
Chances are, the kids who built a computer out of a oatmeal carton and
paper clips, learned more about computers than did kids who had a
whole working digital computer at their disposal. (e.g. some kids in
the same timeframe playing games on their dad's timeshare account.)
I spent part of the weekend with a bunch of cub scouts playing with
pulleys and ropes on my front porch and building bridges out of paper
and loading them up with toy cars until they collapsed. That was a far
better use of an hour's time than it would've been to use a computer
and statics and dynamics engineering programs to model the same thing!
Tim.
Michael Black
> On Nov 7, 6:06 pm, Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> wrote:
>> So likely that article was misleading, by not saying much it suggested a
>> lot more than was really there, and got me wanting a computer at a time
>> when few were considering it.
>
> Chances are, the kids who built a computer out of a oatmeal carton and
> paper clips, learned more about computers than did kids who had a
> whole working digital computer at their disposal. (e.g. some kids in
> the same timeframe playing games on their dad's timeshare account.)
>
Yes. But in retrospect it was an odd thing, since I read the article and I
wanted a computer, not to do anything specific just to have one. I had no
plan for what I'd do with the computer, yet imagined it to be more full
blown than a simple demonstration. I somehow wanted a computer for the
sake of being able to have one, and the article made me believe at the
time that it was doable. I was nine at the time, it was the era of "The
Computer Wore Tennis Shoes" and "Brainiac" with the computer in his head
in the Superman computers. I made a mansion for my trolls (the ones with
the hair, not the Arpanet kind), and it had a computer.
What I can't remember is whether I was already sort of interested in
electronics at that point, or that article got me interested. It was
definitely that point where I started going through the "electronic"
section in the children's library, in quotes because most of the books
were old and about electricity rather than electronics. The infamous
2-nail hot dog cooker and such. But I can't remember if I'd already heard
of amateur radio by the time I read the article, or not, and amateur radio
was clearly sending me in the same direction. I knew I'd have to do
electronics if I wanted to build that computer I wanted.
I do know that the idea of the computer got lost as amateur radio became a
bigger thing, and three years later (the earliest I could get licensed
since Canada at the time had a requirement that you be at least 15 years
old, the rule changed the year I was 12) I had a ham license that my
interests were in.
And then 3 years later, the Altair is on the cover of Popular Electronics,
and suddenly building your own computer was in a bigger spotlight than 6
years before.
Michael
Walter Bushell
Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> wrote:
> And then 3 years later, the Altair is on the cover of Popular Electronics,
> and suddenly building your own computer was in a bigger spotlight than 6
> years before.
>
> Michael
--
A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.
Gene Wirchenko
wrote:
>In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.09...@darkstar.example.net>,
> Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> wrote:
>
>> And then 3 years later, the Altair is on the cover of Popular Electronics,
>> and suddenly building your own computer was in a bigger spotlight than 6
>> years before.
>>
>> Michael
>
><http://xkcd.com/505/>
An example of why you should use an error-correcting code.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Walter Bushell
Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
Difficult enough to run a Universe by moving rocks, error correction
would be an impossible burden. Hence the occasional virgin who gets
pregnant.
(Hey, the Christmas lights are up already even if Thanksgiving is still
over two days away.)
Tim Shoppa
> Yes. But in retrospect it was an odd thing, since I read the article and I
> wanted a computer, not to do anything specific just to have one.
I think there's a very primal instinct in tool-builders, to realize
that if someone else built a thingamajig, then I CAN IMAGINE BUILDING
ONE TOO.
The imagination is such that even though we don't know exactly what a
thingamajig is, or what it does, just seeing or hearing about one
being done by somebody else instills a desire.
I brought up the Adventure clones - some exact mimicry, others only
vaguely inspired here by rumors of the original - here a few years ago
and someone mentioned a science fiction story, where the government
locked up a bunch of US scientists in a secret base, told them the
Russians had invented some physically impossible device, and that it
was their job to do the same. The common thread is the motivation that
it someone else has figured it out, then we know it's possible, and
its just a matter of figuring out how it's possible. Otherwise
everyone just sits around saying that it's impossible.
Tim.
Charles Richmond
It reminds me of a story I heard about Henry Ford. He told his
engineers he wanted them to build him a V-8 engine. They kept
coming back after experimenting and telling Ford it was *not*
possible. Then he told them: "Look, I want a V-8 engine, and
*you* are going to build it for me."
He doesn't want to hear why it can *not* be done; he wants to hear
how you are going to do it.
"Obstacles are what you see when you take your eyes off the goal."
--
+----------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond |
| |
| plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com |
+----------------------------------------+
Joe Pfeiffer
> It reminds me of a story I heard about Henry Ford. He told his
> engineers he wanted them to build him a V-8 engine. They kept coming
> back after experimenting and telling Ford it was *not* possible. Then
> he told them: "Look, I want a V-8 engine, and *you* are going to
> build it for me."
Unfortunately, there is a comparable story involving Lee Iacocca telling
Chrysler engineers that they *would* have the 604 transmission ready for
the new cars in the fall. To this day people talk about fragile
Chrysler transmissions.
Patrick Scheible
> Charles Richmond <fri...@tx.rr.com> writes:
>
> > It reminds me of a story I heard about Henry Ford. He told his
> > engineers he wanted them to build him a V-8 engine. They kept coming
> > back after experimenting and telling Ford it was *not* possible. Then
> > he told them: "Look, I want a V-8 engine, and *you* are going to
> > build it for me."
>
> Unfortunately, there is a comparable story involving Lee Iacocca telling
> Chrysler engineers that they *would* have the 604 transmission ready for
> the new cars in the fall. To this day people talk about fragile
> Chrysler transmissions.
Note the difference between telling the engineers what to build, and
telling them when it will be ready.
-- Patrick
Charles Richmond
I got the idea that Henry Ford wanted that V-8 engine, *no* matter
how much it cost to develop or what the engineers had to do...
Once he had a "proof of concept", he could work from there.
Charlie Gibbs
(Walter Bushell) writes:
> (Hey, the Christmas lights are up already even if Thanksgiving is
> still over two days away.)
I feel sorry for all those U.S. merchants who have Thanksgiving
getting in the way of Christmas marketing. Here in Canada, with
our Thanksgiving in early October, the only thing standing in the
way of the Christmas rush is Halloween.
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Walter Bushell
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> In article <proto-451611....@news.panix.com>, pr...@panix.com
> (Walter Bushell) writes:
>
> > (Hey, the Christmas lights are up already even if Thanksgiving is
> > still over two days away.)
>
> I feel sorry for all those U.S. merchants who have Thanksgiving
> getting in the way of Christmas marketing.
No you don't.
>Here in Canada, with> our Thanksgiving in early October, the only thing
standing in the way of the Christmas rush is Halloween.
--
Charlie Gibbs
(Walter Bushell) writes:
> In article <680.651T28...@kltpzyxm.invalid>,
> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In article <proto-451611....@news.panix.com>,
>> pr...@panix.com (Walter Bushell) writes:
>>
>>> (Hey, the Christmas lights are up already even if Thanksgiving is
>>> still over two days away.)
>>
>> I feel sorry for all those U.S. merchants who have Thanksgiving
>> getting in the way of Christmas marketing.
>
> No you don't.
Oh damn, I forgot the <sarcasm> and </sarcasm> tags.
Gene Wirchenko
wrote:
[snip]
>Oh damn, I forgot the <sarcasm> and </sarcasm> tags.
Charlie, in your case, they should be </sarcasm> and <sarcasm>
tags, or maybe <nosarcasm> and </nosarcasm> tags.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Charles Richmond
> In article <proto-451611....@news.panix.com>, pr...@panix.com
> (Walter Bushell) writes:
>
>> (Hey, the Christmas lights are up already even if Thanksgiving is
>> still over two days away.)
>
> I feel sorry for all those U.S. merchants who have Thanksgiving
> getting in the way of Christmas marketing. Here in Canada, with
> our Thanksgiving in early October, the only thing standing in the
> way of the Christmas rush is Halloween.
>
Believe me... U.S. merchants do *not* let Thanksgiving, or even
Halloween, get in the way of Christmas marketing!!! :-(
D.J.
<fri...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>Believe me... U.S. merchants do *not* let Thanksgiving, or even
>Halloween, get in the way of Christmas marketing!!! :-(
At least this year the cable tv channels didn't advertise Slim
Whitman's Christmas music in August. Some years they do such a weird
thing.
JimP.
--
Brushing aside the thorns so I can see the stars.
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ Drive-In movie theaters
http://poetry.drivein-jim.net/ Aug 26, 2009
Walter Bushell
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> In article <proto-3710B8....@news.panix.com>, pr...@panix.com
> (Walter Bushell) writes:
>
> > In article <680.651T28...@kltpzyxm.invalid>,
> > "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <proto-451611....@news.panix.com>,
> >> pr...@panix.com (Walter Bushell) writes:
> >>
> >>> (Hey, the Christmas lights are up already even if Thanksgiving is
> >>> still over two days away.)
> >>
> >> I feel sorry for all those U.S. merchants who have Thanksgiving
> >> getting in the way of Christmas marketing.
> >
> > No you don't.
>
> Oh damn, I forgot the <sarcasm> and </sarcasm> tags.
I think I did pick up on it, I merely out pointed the sarcasm.
Walter Bushell
D.J. <jollyc...@cableone.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:29:08 -0600, Charles Richmond
> <fri...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> >Believe me... U.S. merchants do *not* let Thanksgiving, or even
> >Halloween, get in the way of Christmas marketing!!! :-(
>
> At least this year the cable tv channels didn't advertise Slim
> Whitman's Christmas music in August. Some years they do such a weird
> thing.
>
> JimP.
"Mommy, Mommy, why are we having Christmas in June?"
"If I told you once, I told you a thousand times; you have leukemia."
Patrick Scheible
> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> > In article <proto-451611....@news.panix.com>, pr...@panix.com
> > (Walter Bushell) writes:
> >
> >> (Hey, the Christmas lights are up already even if Thanksgiving is
> >> still over two days away.)
> >
> > I feel sorry for all those U.S. merchants who have Thanksgiving
> > getting in the way of Christmas marketing. Here in Canada, with
> > our Thanksgiving in early October, the only thing standing in the
> > way of the Christmas rush is Halloween.
> >
>
> Believe me... U.S. merchants do *not* let Thanksgiving, or even
> Halloween, get in the way of Christmas marketing!!! :-(
They even got FDR to move Thanksgiving to the third Thursday instead
of the last Thursday for a few years. Then Congress changed it to the
fourth Thursday.
-- Patrick
Peter Flass
> In article <aqnrg59gid1cdt2kf...@4ax.com>,
> D.J. <jollyc...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:29:08 -0600, Charles Richmond
>> <fri...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Believe me... U.S. merchants do *not* let Thanksgiving, or even
>>> Halloween, get in the way of Christmas marketing!!! :-(
>> At least this year the cable tv channels didn't advertise Slim
>> Whitman's Christmas music in August. Some years they do such a weird
>> thing.
>>
>> JimP.
>
> "Mommy, Mommy, why are we having Christmas in June?"
>
> "If I told you once, I told you a thousand times; you have leukemia."
>
sick, sick, sick. That brought me back to when I was twelve or so, and
we'd compete to see who could tell the sickest of those.
jmfbahciv
> In article <proto-451611....@news.panix.com>, pr...@panix.com
> (Walter Bushell) writes:
>
>> (Hey, the Christmas lights are up already even if Thanksgiving is
>> still over two days away.)
>
> I feel sorry for all those U.S. merchants who have Thanksgiving
> getting in the way of Christmas marketing. Here in Canada, with
> our Thanksgiving in early October, the only thing standing in the
> way of the Christmas rush is Halloween.
>
here. There are little pockets of Thanksgiving merchandise but
most of the stuff 2 weeks ago was xmas. I saw one house with
their xmas tree up and lit last week already.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> In article <proto-3710B8....@news.panix.com>, pr...@panix.com
> (Walter Bushell) writes:
>
>> In article <680.651T28...@kltpzyxm.invalid>,
>> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <proto-451611....@news.panix.com>,
>>> pr...@panix.com (Walter Bushell) writes:
>>>
>>>> (Hey, the Christmas lights are up already even if Thanksgiving is
>>>> still over two days away.)
>>> I feel sorry for all those U.S. merchants who have Thanksgiving
>>> getting in the way of Christmas marketing.
>> No you don't.
>
> Oh damn, I forgot the <sarcasm> and </sarcasm> tags.
>
/BAH
D.J.
I tried to find Halloween decorations 2 weeks before Halloween. Next
to nothing. I did find a few Thanksgiving and lots of Christmas
decorations.
grey...@mail.com
Some years ago, I saw a Santa Claus hanging from the front of a house
in the former East Germany, I hoped that it had fallen and just got
entangled in the electricity wire :).
`Bah humbug to All'
--
greymaus
.
.
...
grey...@mail.com
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:56:19 -0500, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>>Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> In article <proto-451611....@news.panix.com>, pr...@panix.com
>>> (Walter Bushell) writes:
>>>
>>>> (Hey, the Christmas lights are up already even if Thanksgiving is
>>>> still over two days away.)
>>>
>>> I feel sorry for all those U.S. merchants who have Thanksgiving
>>> getting in the way of Christmas marketing. Here in Canada, with
>>> our Thanksgiving in early October, the only thing standing in the
>>> way of the Christmas rush is Halloween.
>>>
>>My Mom and I have been wondering why there isn't a Thanksgiving
>>here. There are little pockets of Thanksgiving merchandise but
>>most of the stuff 2 weeks ago was xmas. I saw one house with
>>their xmas tree up and lit last week already.
>
> I tried to find Halloween decorations 2 weeks before Halloween. Next
> to nothing. I did find a few Thanksgiving and lots of Christmas
> decorations.
Its been Christmas selling here since end September, presumably stuff
that didn't sell last year. About 15th December, they abandon that
for foreign travel.
Quadibloc
> Its been Christmas selling here since end September, presumably stuff
> that didn't sell last year. About 15th December, they abandon that
> for foreign travel.
No, even in September you won't be seeing Boxing Day leftovers in
stores. These are this year's shiny new toys that they're trying to
flog without success.
John Savard
Quadibloc
> Some years ago, I saw a Santa Claus hanging from the front of a house
> in the former East Germany, I hoped that it had fallen and just got
> entangled in the electricity wire :).
>
> `Bah humbug to All'
Deplorable though the commercialization of Christmas may be, it is but
a *trifle* compared to the wonderful positive fact that the people of
Eastern Europe have escaped from the slavery of Communist regimes.
John Savard
Charlie Gibbs
(Gene Wirchenko) writes:
I've done it! I've achieved curmudgeon status!
(Assignment of tags is left as an exercise for the reader.)
Charlie Gibbs
jollyc...@cableone.net (D.J.) writes:
> I tried to find Halloween decorations 2 weeks before Halloween. Next
> to nothing. I did find a few Thanksgiving and lots of Christmas
> decorations.
Did you at least go out and sing pumpkin carols?
[A tip of the hat to Charles Schulz...]
Mensanator
> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
It's an East Coast thing, where people are descended from
the original Pilgrims. Around here, which has a huge
population of German immigrants that settled in the 1840's,
Thanksgiving has no tradition and is subsequently less
important than Christmas traditions which the Germans
brought with them.
>
> /BAH
D.J.
wrote:
>In article <v14tg5lrj0m03g2kt...@4ax.com>,
>jollyc...@cableone.net (D.J.) writes:
>
>> I tried to find Halloween decorations 2 weeks before Halloween. Next
>> to nothing. I did find a few Thanksgiving and lots of Christmas
>> decorations.
>
>Did you at least go out and sing pumpkin carols?
>
>[A tip of the hat to Charles Schulz...]
Nope. I did mention looking for The Great Pumpkin at work though.
Gene Wirchenko
wrote:
>In article <f3krg5llpes2p5h3q...@4ax.com>, ge...@ocis.net
>(Gene Wirchenko) writes:
>
>> On 25 Nov 09 14:33:11 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> Oh damn, I forgot the <sarcasm> and </sarcasm> tags.
>>
>> Charlie, in your case, they should be </sarcasm> and <sarcasm>
>> tags, or maybe <nosarcasm> and </nosarcasm> tags.
>
>I've done it! I've achieved curmudgeon status!
Or rather, finally caught on to your curmudgeon status. You are
no longer unthinkingly a curmudgeon (not to be confused with an
unthinking curmudgeon).
I am honoured to aided you in your enlightenment.
>(Assignment of tags is left as an exercise for the reader.)
Same here.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Gene Wirchenko
The Economy will be pleased.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
jmfbahciv
> On 26 Nov 09 08:41:29 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>> In article <v14tg5lrj0m03g2kt...@4ax.com>,
>> jollyc...@cableone.net (D.J.) writes:
>>
>>> I tried to find Halloween decorations 2 weeks before Halloween. Next
>>> to nothing. I did find a few Thanksgiving and lots of Christmas
>>> decorations.
>> Did you at least go out and sing pumpkin carols?
>>
>> [A tip of the hat to Charles Schulz...]
>
> Nope. I did mention looking for The Great Pumpkin at work though.
>
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> On Nov 26, 7:56 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> In article <proto-451611.21514223112...@news.panix.com>, pr...@panix.com
>>> (Walter Bushell) writes:
>>>> (Hey, the Christmas lights are up already even if Thanksgiving is
>>>> still over two days away.)
>>> I feel sorry for all those U.S. merchants who have Thanksgiving
>>> getting in the way of Christmas marketing. Here in Canada, with
>>> our Thanksgiving in early October, the only thing standing in the
>>> way of the Christmas rush is Halloween.
>> My Mom and I have been wondering why there isn't a Thanksgiving
>> here. There are little pockets of Thanksgiving merchandise but
>> most of the stuff 2 weeks ago was xmas. I saw one house with
>> their xmas tree up and lit last week already.
>
> It's an East Coast thing, where people are descended from
> the original Pilgrims.
It didn't used to be an East Coast thing.
<snip>
/BAH
jmfbahciv
How do you figure? If the junk is sold at a loss, there isn't
any profits.
/BAH
Peter Flass
Yes, they lose money on each unit, but they make it up on volume;-)
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> Yes, they lose money on each unit, but they make it up on volume;-)
sounds like the joke about PS2s from the early part of the last decade.
--
40+yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970
Lars Poulsen
> A good friend of mine has a large picture of a somewhat
> derelict bulk freighter prominently on display in his hallway.
>
> When asked about what that picture is doing there, or even
> just for some looks; he responds "I sunk that ship":
>
> He was previously first artillery officer on a sub.
That reminds me of an article from the Atlantic Monthly
which begins with a great story that brings this up to date:
--- http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200903/air-force ---
Over Cesar Rodriguez’s desk hangs a macabre souvenir of his decades as a
fighter pilot. It is a large framed picture, a panoramic cockpit view of
open sky and desert. A small F‑15 Eagle is visible in the distance, but
larger and more immediate, filling the center of the shot, staring right
at the viewer, is an incoming missile.
It is a startling picture, memorializing a moment of air-to-air combat
from January 19, 1991, over Iraq. Air-to-air combat has become
exceedingly rare. Even when it happens, modern fighter pilots are rarely
close enough to actually see the person they are shooting at. This image
recalls a kill registered by Rodriguez, who goes by Rico, and his
wingman, Craig Underhill, known as Mole, during the Gulf War.
The F‑15 in the distance is Rodriguez’s.
“The guy who is actually sitting in the cockpit staring out at this,
he’s locked on to me with his radar, and that,” he said, pointing at the
missile, “is about to hit him in the face.”
“So this is an artist’s rendering?”
“No,” said Rodriguez. “That’s actually the real picture.”
A special-operations team combed the Iraqi MiG’s crash site, and this
was one of the items salvaged, the last millisecond of incoming data
from the doomed Iraqi pilot’s HUD, or head-up display. It was the final
splash of light on his retinas, probably arriving too late for his brain
to process before being vaporized with the rest of his corporeal frame.
Pilots like Rodriguez don’t romanticize such exploits. These are
strictly matter-of-fact men from a world where war is work, and life and
death hang on a rapidly and precisely calibrated reality, an attitude
captured by the flat caption mounted on the frame: This is an AIM-7
air-to-air missile shot from an F‑15 Eagle detonating on an Iraqi MiG‑29
Fulcrum during Operation Desert Storm.
--- end quote ---
Lars Poulsen
D.J.
Shrug. Allegedly, family oral history, some of my ancestors were
pilgrims. I don't think much of their 'ideals'. Of course, some of the
things claimed for them actually came from the US version of the
Victorians.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> Shrug. Allegedly, family oral history, some of my ancestors were
> pilgrims. I don't think much of their 'ideals'. Of course, some of the
> things claimed for them actually came from the US version of the
> Victorians.
one of my wife's uncles supposedly had a story about getting a
solicitation from salem mass. for some kind of memorial commemorating
the salem witch trials. he apparently wrote back saying that he felt
that his family had contributed enough, having provided members for the
main entertainment at the original trials.
past reference to old history books about if it hadn't been for the
"scottish" states ... as counter-balance to the "english" states ... the
current form of current here would have been significantly different
(part of the implication wasn't that the pilgrims didn't believe in
religious persecution ... they just wanted to be the ones doing the
persecuting).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006b.html#30 Empires and Imperialism
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006r.html#47 Mickey and friends
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007o.html#51 EZPass: Yes, Big Brother IS Watching You!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007q.html#10 Horrid thought about Politics, President Bush, and Democrats
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009m.html#53 August 7, 1944: today is the 65th Anniversary of the Birth of the Computer
they were history lectures from the 1880s about the founding of the
country ... made into set of books that were awarded to my wife's father
for some sort of distinction at west point.