IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)

[Mike Hore]

Hi folks,

Looking at the archive on bitsavers.org, I see that info on the IBM
System/38 or AS/400 is pretty scarce. I'm interested in finding out
more about the old IMPI design and how its microprogramming was
implemented (this was the technology underlying the original System/38).
This was kept secret at the time, for good reason, but by now it would
be of historical interest only.

There must be some manuals/documentation, but these don't seem to be
available anywhere online and I guess they might be buried in the
dungeons at IBM Rochester somewhere. If anybody would have access to
these, it would be great if they could be lent to bitsavers.org for
scanning.

bitsavers is a fantastic resource for computer historians, but there's
very little on the S/38 or AS/400. These are too important to be
neglected there, quite apart from anything about IMPI that might still
exist.

I do have Frank Soltis' books "Inside the AS/400" and "Fortress
Rochester", and these are a great resource, but it would be great to
have actual manuals on bitsavers. Somebody somewhere must have access
to this kind of info but maybe the "Fortress Rochester" mentality is
still with us? There's not much I can do about that on this side of the
world (Australia) but it would be great if somebody could help.

TIA, Mike.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Hore mike_h...@OVE.invalid.aapt.net.au
---------------------------------------------------------------

[menti...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 9:01:32 PM UTC-8, Mike Hore wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Looking at the archive on bitsavers.org, I see that
> info on the IBM System/38 or AS/400 is pretty scarce.

Thanks for kicking the hornet's nest for more info.

Say, would you like to help overthrow the government of China?

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--
Major goal in life: Trigger a Technological Singularity;
Minor goal: Overthrow the unelected government of China;
Minor goal: Win a Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine;
Minor goal: [X] Reunification of East and West Germany.

[Quadibloc]

On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 10:01:32 PM UTC-7, Mike Hore wrote:

> This was kept secret at the time, for good reason, but by now it would
> be of historical interest only.

Not necessarily. After all, System/38 and the AS/400 incorporated features that IBM originally intended for its Future Systems project.

IBM historically doesn't throw stuff away. Thus, while the resemblance between
the STRETCH and the System/360 may be largely superficial, the original
Datatron memos, from which STRETCH was descended, describe something a lot
closer to the System/360. And the System/360 Model 85, despite being less than
a success commercially, gave rise to the System/370 Model 165 - and the 3033.

So, despite System i currently being made up of Power PC chips, IBM may be
planning a comeback for this technology... in the future. After all, we're not
in the Future yet - no flying cars!

John Savard

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
> So, despite System i currently being made up of Power PC chips, IBM may be
> planning a comeback for this technology... in the future. After all, we're not
> in the Future yet - no flying cars!

Circa 1980, IBM was going to move multitude of internal microprocessors
to 801/risc Iliad chips ... 370 low & mid-range, as/400 (follow-on to
s/38), numerous control processors, etc. For what ever reason these
projects floundered ... and fell back to traditional CISC, there was
quick&dirty effort to do CISC chip for as/400.

There was also 801/risc ROMP chip that was going to be used for
follow-on to displaywriter ... and the project was canceled. They then
looked around and decided to retarget it to the unix workstation market
... which required some changes to the chip. They then hire the company
that had done the AT&T unix port for PC/IX ... to do one for ROMP ...
which is announced as AIX as PC/RT. RIOS chipset was then done for
follow-on to PC/RT as RS/6000. Part of 801/risc was no provision for
cache consistency ... typical related for multiprocessor operation.
RS/6000 was large power hungry five chip set. some poast 801, risc,
iliad, romp, rios, power/pc, etc posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#801

A joint effort with Motorola & Apple was created to do single chip
801/risc, that also supported cache concistency ... sort of using
motorola 88k cache consistency technology. The executive we reported
directly on our HA/CMP product, then went over to head up this new
organization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM_alliance

Rochester was involved with 64-bit version ... to finally move to
801/risc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_600#PowerPC_630

... a decade after the earlier effort failed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System_i

with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_RS64#Cobra_and_Muskie

above mentions IBM SP ... we were doing cluster scaleup as part
of ha/cmp ... some past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp

some old email ... both commercial and numerica/scientifc scaleup
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#medusa

discussion in Ellison conference room Jan1992 on HA/CMP (commercial)
scaleup
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13

over the next couple weeks, scaleup was transferred, announced as
supercomputer and we were told we couldn't work on anything with more
than four processors.

press

17Feb1992 article cluster scaleup announced for "scientific and
technical *ONLY*" (part of the issue was mainframe DB2 people complained
if I was allowed to go ahead with the RDBMS stuff, it would be at least
five years ahead of what they were doing).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#6000clusters1

11May1992 article that national lab interest caught IBM by "surprise"
(even though I had been working with them off & on ... going back to
late 70s where they were looking at large computer cluster farm of
4341s)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#6000clusters2

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

[Mike Hore]

On 13/11/2015 1:36 PM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>> So, despite System i currently being made up of Power PC chips, IBM may be
>> planning a comeback for this technology... in the future. After all, we're not
>> in the Future yet - no flying cars!
>
> Circa 1980, IBM was going to move multitude of internal microprocessors
> to 801/risc Iliad chips ... 370 low & mid-range, as/400 (follow-on to
> s/38), numerous control processors, etc. For what ever reason these
> projects floundered ... and fell back to traditional CISC, there was
> quick&dirty effort to do CISC chip for as/400.

> ...
(lots of interesting stuff)

All true, and bitsavers has mountains of documentation about most of
these efforts, even including ACS which was cancelled. That's really my
point. There's a real scarcity of info on the S/38 and follow-on
systems, and this shouldn't be the case. IBM doesn't throw stuff out,
so SOMEBODY must have access to it. I'm not expecting doco on the
special PowerPC additions in tags-active mode, since knowledge of the
binary codes could lead to a security breach in System i. But the older
IMPI CISC processor is now surely of historical interest only,
like ACS and STRETCH etc.


Cheers, Mike.

[Mike Hore]

Hi John,

On 13/11/2015 12:21 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 10:01:32 PM UTC-7, Mike Hore wrote:
>
>> This was kept secret at the time, for good reason, but by now it would
>> be of historical interest only.
>
> Not necessarily. After all, System/38 and the AS/400 incorporated features that IBM originally intended for its Future Systems project.

Sort of true, though Frank Soltis' books make it clear that he had some
of the ideas before he was called into the FS effort, then he refined
his ideas on single-level store, then after he was kicked out for
interesting political reasons he further developed these ideas in the
S/38 design. So there was some crossover but the truth was a bit
complicated. So I don't think I'm disagreeing, just adding some detail.

>
> IBM historically doesn't throw stuff away. Thus, while the resemblance between
> the STRETCH and the System/360 may be largely superficial, the original
> Datatron memos, from which STRETCH was descended, describe something a lot
> closer to the System/360. And the System/360 Model 85, despite being less than
> a success commercially, gave rise to the System/370 Model 165 - and the 3033.
>
> So, despite System i currently being made up of Power PC chips, IBM may be
> planning a comeback for this technology... in the future. After all, we're not
> in the Future yet - no flying cars!

Yes, but I think IMPI won't come back, any more than ACS.

Cheers, Mike.


--

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Mike Hore <mike_h...@OVE.invalid.aapt.net.au> writes:
> Sort of true, though Frank Soltis' books make it clear that he had some
> of the ideas before he was called into the FS effort, then he refined
> his ideas on single-level store, then after he was kicked out for
> interesting political reasons he further developed these ideas in the
> S/38 design. So there was some crossover but the truth was a bit
> complicated. So I don't think I'm disagreeing, just adding some detail.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#58 IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)

some more future system here
http://people.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/fs.html

much of single-level store came from tss/360 (with some academic
literature from the period).

tss/360 had performance issue that things page faulted single 4k block
at a time and application was disable/non-runnable during the page
fault.

at the univ. we got to work with tss/360 and cp/67 both on univ. 360/67
on weekends. spring of 1968 ... the IBM SE working with tss/360 and I
(working with cp/67) did interactive fortran edit, compile and execute
benchmark ... tss/360 running four simulated users had worse throughput
and interactive response than cp67/cms did with 35 users.

I continued to work on 360 (& then 370) stuff all during the FS period,
even periodically ridiculing their activities. One of the things I did
was paged mapped filesystem for CMS ... which I've characterized as
having learned all the things not to do from tss/360. I got something
like three times the throughput on moderate file i/o intensive
benchmarks than the standard CMS filesystem. some past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#mmap

Throughput issue with TSS/360-like synchronous page fault wasn't a
problem in the S/38 (low-end) market. Also S/38 has been characterized
as simplifying things compared to FS ... one of the things it did was
scatter block allocate across all connected disk drives. As a result the
complete filesystem had to be backed up as single entity ... and any
single disk failure ... required the whole system to be restored as
integral operation.

One of the people that I got to work with when playing disk engineer in
bldg 14&15, got the original disk raid patent in the 70s. some past
posts playing disk engineer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#disk

because single disk failure was so traumatic for s/38, it became one of
the first products that shipped raid support.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

was back in bay area last weekend and went by the old plant site, bldg14
was one of the only bldgs from that era still standing ... rest is strip
mall and apartments.

[Mike Hore]

Hi Lynn,

>....

> re:
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#58 IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)
>
> some more future system here
> http://people.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/fs.html
>
> much of single-level store came from tss/360 (with some academic
> literature from the period).
>
> tss/360 had performance issue that things page faulted single 4k block
> at a time and application was disable/non-runnable during the page
> fault.

>...

Thanks for all that interesting stuff about performance.

It's also interesting that Bob Evans in his memoirs thought that the
whole existence of the then GSD was a "strategic blunder" because it led
to the development of systems that weren't 360/370 compatible. He cites
tne loss of the midrange market share as going from 65% in 1970 to less
than 20% in 1980.

It's hard to ague with the figures, but I guess Frank Soltis and the
Rochester people might argue that

(a) They knew their small-business customers much better than the rest
of the organisation, who were big-business oriented, and just didn't get
it as far as small businesses were concerned.

(b) The whole reason the Rochester people were kicked off the FS project
was that the DoJ was threatening the breakup of IBM, which would have
led to GSD becoming a separate company in competition with IBM, and they
would have had to develop their own systems anyway.

(c) Very aguably, the drop in market share might have happened anyway,
as the whole field was changing rapidly.

Who was right? Maybe an exam question for a course on computer history??

Cheers, Mike.

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Mike Hore <mike_h...@OVE.invalid.aapt.net.au> writes:
> Thanks for all that interesting stuff about performance.
>
> It's also interesting that Bob Evans in his memoirs thought that the
> whole existence of the then GSD was a "strategic blunder" because it led
> to the development of systems that weren't 360/370 compatible. He cites
> tne loss of the midrange market share as going from 65% in 1970 to less
> than 20% in 1980.
>
> It's hard to ague with the figures, but I guess Frank Soltis and the
> Rochester people might argue that
>
> (a) They knew their small-business customers much better than the rest
> of the organisation, who were big-business oriented, and just didn't get
> it as far as small businesses were concerned.
>
> (b) The whole reason the Rochester people were kicked off the FS project
> was that the DoJ was threatening the breakup of IBM, which would have
> led to GSD becoming a separate company in competition with IBM, and they
> would have had to develop their own systems anyway.
>
> (c) Very aguably, the drop in market share might have happened anyway,
> as the whole field was changing rapidly.
>
> Who was right? Maybe an exam question for a course on computer history??

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#58 IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#59 IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)

as mentioned in past discussions about low&midrange 370 (4300s) and DEC
in the same market ... PCs and workstations started to take-over the
market by mid-80s (which also applies to the GSD market, also one of the
reasons why previously mentioned displaywriter followon was canceled).

past discussions were that 4300s sold about the same as DEC into that
market ... in single or small number unit orders. The big 4300
difference was large corporate orders of hundreds at a time. Start
late 70s there was big explosion in 4300 sales ... some old email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#43xx

There was anticipation that the 4361/4381 (follow-on to 4331/4341) would
continue to see the explosion in sales, but by that time the market was
moving to large PCs and workstations ... also hitting s/32, s/34, s/36
(as/400 initially was combined followon to both s/36 & s/38)

Old reference to decade of DEC sale numbers, sliced&diced by
year, model, US/non-US:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0 Computers in Science Fiction

[Quadibloc]

I've looked into this, and I now understand that the System/32 and System/34 are
not relevant to your query.

Since compilers on the System/38 and AS/400 generated TIMI code, and then IMPI
code was internally associated with the binaries by something at a lower level of
the system - so that when they changed to the PowerPC, all that was needed was to
generate PowerPC code from TIMI instead - IMPI was very much something nobody was
intended to use directly.

So any documentation of IMPI would have been internal to IBM for use by system
designers. (TIMI, on the other hand, should have been somewhat more widely
documented.) Thus, it's unlikely any copies were floating around outside IBM.
This doesn't preclude Bitsavers getting its hands on them, but it certainly is
an explanation if they couldn't.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

I've found a reply to an old post by Eric Smith of Retrocomputing that gives some helpful leads:

(begin quote)
IBM published a manual describing the S/38 instruction set in detail.
The CISC AS/400 instruction set is nearly identical. The manual was
called "S/38 Internal Microprogramming Instructions, Formats and
Functions Reference Manual", pub number SC21-9037. It's still listed
on IBMlink at:

http://www1.ibmlink.ibm.com/cgi-bin/master?request=pubscatalog&parms=SN&xh=xyJpCDuXYIy1Ek0USenGnF9332&xhi=usa.main%7Cpubscatalog%5E&orderno=SC21-9037

They say it's obsolete (pub date is 10/81!), but they list a price of
$32.50. Don't know if they'll send you one.

There's a summary of AS/400 CISC architecture at:

http://users.snip.net/~gbooker/AS400/arch.htm

--Dave

On 21 Jun 2000 11:09:22 -0700, Eric Smith
<eric-no-s...@brouhaha.com> wrote:

>Now that I actually own an old AS/400 (9406-B45), I'm more
>curious than ever about the IMPI CISC processor. Did IBM ever
>publish any description of the architecture, even in general
>terms? How different is it from the System/38 processor
>architecture (and was anything published on that)?
>
>I've never worked on a machine with a single-level store, so I'm
>eager to learn about it.
>
>Cheers,
>Eric
(end quote)

As well, I've seen a reference to a document entitled AS/400 IMPI Specification
in a document concerning a Department of Defense evaluation of the AS/400.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 6:54:03 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc quoted, in part:

> http://users.snip.net/~gbooker/AS400/arch.htm

This link is no longer valid, but one can go back to 2001 with the Wayback machine. It only has general information, though.

I've found

http://www.verycomputer.com/153_4d985c1df03dd296_1.htm

which contains a discussion that may be helpful.

John Savard

[Dan Espen]

Not sure I agree.
My experience with the line stopped with the S/34.
But I've read the S/38 and AS/400 documentation
and at least from a software perspective, you can
see the ongoing refinement of the S/34 OS.

--
Dan Espen

[Mike Hore]

On 14/11/2015 11:24 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
> I've found a reply to an old post by Eric Smith of Retrocomputing that gives some helpful leads:
>
> (begin quote)
> IBM published a manual describing the S/38 instruction set in detail.
> The CISC AS/400 instruction set is nearly identical. The manual was
> called "S/38 Internal Microprogramming Instructions, Formats and
> Functions Reference Manual", pub number SC21-9037. It's still listed
> on IBMlink at:
>
> http://www1.ibmlink.ibm.com/cgi-bin/master?request=pubscatalog&parms=SN&xh=xyJpCDuXYIy1Ek0USenGnF9332&xhi=usa.main%7Cpubscatalog%5E&orderno=SC21-9037
>
> They say it's obsolete (pub date is 10/81!), but they list a price of
> $32.50. Don't know if they'll send you one.

Now that's one that I'd love to get my hands on, but it doesn't appear
to be available any more. And Googling for "SC21-9037" doesn't give any
useful hits.

However the Machine Interface (MI) manual went up on bitsavers last year:

http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/system38/GA21-9331-1_System_38_Functional_Reference_Manual_Feb81.pdf

That's the target for the compilers. It's great to have that manual
available at least.

Cheers, Mike.

[Peter Flass]

Mike Hore <mike_h...@OVE.invalid.aapt.net.au> wrote:
> Hi Lynn,
>
>> ....
>> re:
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#58 IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)
>>
>> some more future system here
>> http://people.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/fs.html
>>
>> much of single-level store came from tss/360 (with some academic
>> literature from the period).
>>
>> tss/360 had performance issue that things page faulted single 4k block
>> at a time and application was disable/non-runnable during the page
>> fault.
>> ...
>
> Thanks for all that interesting stuff about performance.
>
> It's also interesting that Bob Evans in his memoirs thought that the
> whole existence of the then GSD was a "strategic blunder" because it led
> to the development of systems that weren't 360/370 compatible. He cites
> tne loss of the midrange market share as going from 65% in 1970 to less
> than 20% in 1980.
>
> It's hard to ague with the figures, but I guess Frank Soltis and the
> Rochester people might argue that
>

As a customer I thought this all along too. IBM was interested in the
large customers and didn't care about the little guys. I spent a large
chunk of time in academia, where the System/3x machines were non-starters.
We looked at the 9370 boxes, but VAXen offered much better
price/performance and simplified software maintenance.

--
Pete

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 5:13:38 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

> As a customer I thought this all along too. IBM was interested in the
> large customers and didn't care about the little guys. I spent a large
> chunk of time in academia, where the System/3x machines were non-starters.
> We looked at the 9370 boxes, but VAXen offered much better
> price/performance and simplified software maintenance.

Could I ask what kind of applications that were run in academia, where
the VAX was preferable to the System/3x? Are we talking about basic
business applications like accounting and payroll?

I have no idea of the price/performance of System/3x vs. DEC in
terms of the basic business applications. However, my impression
was that there were great many happy users with the System/3 and
its successors in that field. Indeed, I think in terms of raw
quantity (not CPU horsepower), IBM sold more S/3x machines than
S/360 et al. Like the mainframe, IBM had lots of canned application
software available.

I think in terms of _other_ applications, such as number crunching,
time-sharing, lab process control, the DEC machines won out; the
IBM S/3 wasn't designed for that.

However, I know that the Bell System was an enthusiastic DEC
customer and developer, using DEC machines for specialized
semi-business applications like keeping track of cable records
and switchgear problem reports. Certain DEC machines handled
toll call tracking, replacing an IBM System/7, which in turn
replaced electro-mechanical gear.

[Peter Flass]

<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 5:13:38 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> As a customer I thought this all along too. IBM was interested in the
>> large customers and didn't care about the little guys. I spent a large
>> chunk of time in academia, where the System/3x machines were non-starters.
>> We looked at the 9370 boxes, but VAXen offered much better
>> price/performance and simplified software maintenance.
>
> Could I ask what kind of applications that were run in academia, where
> the VAX was preferable to the System/3x? Are we talking about basic
> business applications like accounting and payroll?

We ran our administrative stuff on a remote IBM mainframe using CICS. We
wanted email, conferencing, and the ability to run some stuff for profs and
students.

>
> I have no idea of the price/performance of System/3x vs. DEC in
> terms of the basic business applications. However, my impression
> was that there were great many happy users with the System/3 and
> its successors in that field. Indeed, I think in terms of raw
> quantity (not CPU horsepower), IBM sold more S/3x machines than
> S/360 et al. Like the mainframe, IBM had lots of canned application
> software available.
>
> I think in terms of _other_ applications, such as number crunching,
> time-sharing, lab process control, the DEC machines won out; the
> IBM S/3 wasn't designed for that.
>
> However, I know that the Bell System was an enthusiastic DEC
> customer and developer, using DEC machines for specialized
> semi-business applications like keeping track of cable records
> and switchgear problem reports. Certain DEC machines handled
> toll call tracking, replacing an IBM System/7, which in turn
> replaced electro-mechanical gear.
>
>

--
Pete

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
> We ran our administrative stuff on a remote IBM mainframe using CICS. We
> wanted email, conferencing, and the ability to run some stuff for profs and
> students.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#58 IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#59 IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#62 IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)

my brother was regional marketing rep for Apple in the mid-80s (largest
physical area in CONUS) ... one of the things he figured was dialing in
remotely to the hdqtrs S/38 that had inventories, factory schedules and
deliveries ... being able to monitor product schedules.

undergraduate in the 60s, I was hired to support IBM mainframe software.
The univ. library had gotten ONR grant to do online catalog. Part of the
money went to getting 2321 datacell. The effort was also selected to be
betatest for the original CICS product. I was then tasked to support and
debug CICS (CICS had been developed at customer location and the library
chose some BDAM options/features different from the original customer
... which resulted in some bugs in how CICS do file OPEN). some past
CICS &/or BDAM posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#cics

... different "PROFS" ... I was blamed for online computer
communication/conferencing (precursor to social media) on the internal
network ... larger than arpanet/internet from just about beginning until
sometime mid-80s ... some past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet

folklore is that when corporate executive committee was told about
online computer communication/conferncing, 5of6 wanted to fire me.
some past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#cmc

There was internal group working on menu-based system for non-computer
literate users (especially managers and executives) which was released
as PROFS. They had picked up a lot of internal applications that were
imbedded in PROFS ... including a very early version of VMSG email
client. Then when the VMSG author offered them a much enhanced version,
the PROFS group tried to get him fired (they had claimed credit for all
parts of PROFS). Things quieted down after he showed that all PROFS
messages in the world contained his initials in non-displayed field.
Afterwards, the VMSG author only distributed the source to me and one
other person.

The technology in the internal network was also used in the corporate
sponsored university BITNET ... also for a time larger than
arpanet/internet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BITNET
some past posts
http://www.garliic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet

The big increase in the number of these machines significantly
contributed to the explosion in 4300s ... some old email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#43xx

book/ipad about former co-worker at the science center responsible for
the internal network (& bitnet) technology
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/cool-to-be-clever-edson-hendricks/id483020515?mt=8
It's Cool to Be Clever: The Story of Edson C. Hendricks, the Genius Who
Invented the Design for the Internet
http://www.amazon.com/Its-Cool-Be-Clever-Hendricks/dp/1897435630/
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edson_Hendricks

trivia ... at the time of the 1Jan1983 arpanet/internet cutover
to TCP/IP, it had approx. 100 IMP nodes and 255 connected hosts
... at the same time the internal network was rapidly approaching
1000 nodes .... old post with list of corporate locations that
added one or more nodes during 1983.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006k.html#8

we were also starting to work with the NSF director about
interconnecting the NSF supercomputer centers ... which morphs into the
NSFNET backbone (precursor to modern internet) ... some old email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#nsfnet
past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#nsfnet

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Sunday, November 15, 2015 at 12:07:56 PM UTC-5, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:

> ... different "PROFS" ... I was blamed for online computer
> communication/conferencing (precursor to social media) on the internal
> network ... larger than arpanet/internet from just about beginning until
> sometime mid-80s ... some past posts
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet
>
> folklore is that when corporate executive committee was told about
> online computer communication/conferncing, 5of6 wanted to fire me.
> some past posts
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#cmc

Ironic given that IBM p/r material often bragged about how they
encouraged a collaborative atmosphere.

Many years ago some mangements encouraged programmers to experiment
(on their own time) with different or advanced techniques to
improve their skills or discover new methods.

But in later years programmers were forbidden to do anything but
their assigned work within assigned parameters. Some managements
even searched programmer libraries to check for unauthorized stuff.

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> Ironic given that IBM p/r material often bragged about how they
> encouraged a collaborative atmosphere.
>
> Many years ago some mangements encouraged programmers to experiment
> (on their own time) with different or advanced techniques to
> improve their skills or discover new methods.
>
> But in later years programmers were forbidden to do anything but
> their assigned work within assigned parameters. Some managements
> even searched programmer libraries to check for unauthorized stuff.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#58 IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#59 IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#62 IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#66 IMPI (System/38 / AS/400 historical)

in the early 80s, we had battle at SJR with corporate
auditors. Corporate wanted the 3270 logon screen to say "For Business
Purposes Only", search all computer files and eliminate all "demo"
programs (aka games). We got SJR to change the 3270 logon screen to say
"For Management Approved Uses Only", worked hard to get the corporate
business conduct guide (given to all employees) to equate personal
online files similar to privacy provisions given to personal locked
desk, and to support leaving "demo" programs available.

Corporate auditors were onsite ... doing things like after hours sweep
of bldg and offices looking for unsecured confidential information left
out. We had placed 6670 printers (computer connected IBM Copier3s) out
in all the deparment area with support for colored paper in the
alternate paper feed drawer ... that was used to print file separator
page. Since the page was nominally blank, the printing of the separator
page was modified to select a random entry from some files (ibmjargon,
and file with collected quotations). One of the print files left
on departmental 6670 printer had the following.

[Business Maxims:] Signs, real and imagined, which belong on the walls
of the nation's offices:
1) Never Try to Teach a Pig to Sing; It Wastes Your Time and It Annoys the Pig.
2) Sometimes the Crowd IS Right.
3) Auditors Are the People Who Go in After the War Is Lost and Bayonet the Wounded.
4) To Err Is Human -- To Forgive Is Not Company Policy.

and the corporate auditors complained to management that we were
ridiculing them.

as an aside ... entry in ibmjargon referring to part of the
online computer communication:

Tandem Memos - n. Something constructive but hard to control; a fresh of
breath air (sic). That's another Tandem Memos. A phrase to worry middle
management. It refers to the computer-based conference (widely
distributed in 1981) in which many technical personnel expressed
dissatisfaction with the tools available to them at that time, and also
constructively criticised the way products were are developed. The memos
are required reading for anyone with a serious interest in quality
products. If you have not seen the memos, try reading the November 1981
Datamation summary.

... snip ...

some past posts mentioning demo programs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008p.html#71 Password Rules
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008r.html#12 What if the computers went back to the '70s too?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#68 360 programs on a z/10
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#43 Boyd's Briefings
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010k.html#49 GML
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011.html#89 Make the mainframe work environment fun and intuitive
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011f.html#62 Mixing Auth and Non-Auth Modules
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012e.html#95 Burroughs B5000, B5500, B6500 videos
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012l.html#6 Some fun with IBM acronyms and jargon (was Re: Auditors Don't Know Squat!)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012p.html#57 Displaywriter, Unix manuals added to Bitsavers

[Mike Hore]

On 14/11/2015 12:22 PM, Mike Hore wrote:
> On 14/11/2015 11:24 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> I've found a reply to an old post by Eric Smith of Retrocomputing that gives some helpful leads:
>>
>> (begin quote)
>> IBM published a manual describing the S/38 instruction set in detail.
>> The CISC AS/400 instruction set is nearly identical. The manual was
>> called "S/38 Internal Microprogramming Instructions, Formats and
>> Functions Reference Manual", pub number SC21-9037. It's still listed
>> on IBMlink at:
>>
>> http://www1.ibmlink.ibm.com/cgi-bin/master?request=pubscatalog&parms=SN&xh=xyJpCDuXYIy1Ek0USenGnF9332&xhi=usa.main%7Cpubscatalog%5E&orderno=SC21-9037
>>
>> They say it's obsolete (pub date is 10/81!), but they list a price of
>> $32.50. Don't know if they'll send you one.
>
> Now that's one that I'd love to get my hands on, but it doesn't appear
> to be available any more. And Googling for "SC21-9037" doesn't give any
> useful hits.

I've found that I could make a formal request to IBM Archives for SC21-9037:

http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/request2/terms.html

However the process looks very bureaucratic, even having to send a
request by snail mail. It would be very easy for them to decide it's
still confidential, especially as I'm just a private individual, not a
university. And then from the terms and conditions I wouldn't have the
right to send it to Bitsavers. It looks to me like it would be much
better for somebody within IBM to do it.

Cheers, Mike.


--

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Sunday, November 15, 2015 at 4:35:15 PM UTC-5, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:


> in the early 80s, we had battle at SJR with corporate
> auditors. Corporate wanted the 3270 logon screen to say "For Business
> Purposes Only", search all computer files and eliminate all "demo"
> programs (aka games).

When I worked at the place that had the Univac, we installed new
terminals for an upcoming on-line application. However, at the
time the terminals were installed, nothing was developed yet.

Anyway, we gave a demo on the terminal (tic tac toe, I think)
to one of our co-workers. Management freaked out, claiming that
was a security breach and unauthorized activity. The fact that
there was no data available, that the person involved would be a
user of the future application, and that it was only a game meant
nothing to management.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Sunday, November 15, 2015 at 7:18:33 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

> We ran our administrative stuff on a remote IBM mainframe using CICS. We
> wanted email, conferencing, and the ability to run some stuff for profs and
> students.

Would you recall what kind of stuff you ran on the VAX?

If memory serves, the Digital VAX line (DEC10 and DEC20?) were
popular mid-range computers. Would anyone know how their sales
volume compared to the IBM S/3x AS/400 line?

Also, would anyone know if the orignal System/3 supported
on-line inquiry terminals, or did that come later? I think
that may have been a big advantage of the PDP line, since
they supported Teletypes early on. The Bell Telephone
installations made wide use of the Teletype CRT unit.

[JimP]

Yeah, I've encountered people like that. That would pretend fire and
the wheel was something to keep hidden from the 'wrong eyes'.
--
JimP.

[John Jackson]

<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message
news:87b081d0-efd3-4fe3...@googlegroups.com...

> On Sunday, November 15, 2015 at 7:18:33 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> We ran our administrative stuff on a remote IBM mainframe using CICS. We
>> wanted email, conferencing, and the ability to run some stuff for profs
>> and
>> students.

> Would you recall what kind of stuff you ran on the VAX?

All the operations that I had anything to do with with
VAXs did everything on them until the PCs showed up.

> If memory serves, the Digital VAX line (DEC10 and DEC20?)
> were popular mid-range computers.

Not clear what you are saying there. The VAXs were
a completely separate line to the DEC10s and DEC20s.

> Would anyone know how their sales volume
> compared to the IBM S/3x AS/400 line?

> Also, would anyone know if the orignal System/3 supported
> on-line inquiry terminals, or did that come later? I think
> that may have been a big advantage of the PDP line, since
> they supported Teletypes early on.

In fact right from the start.

> The Bell Telephone installations made wide use of the Teletype CRT unit.

Never saw anything like that on any PDPs. Most of them
used DEC's VTs with some using clones of those later.

[Dan Espen]

Terminals were introduced with the S/34.
Not a Teletype though, a 5250.
Sort of an IBM 3270 with improvements.


--
Dan Espen

[Peter Flass]

We ran email (with a bitnet gateway whose name escapes me at the momement),
conferencing software (ditto),
RJE and 3270 emulation, plus compilers and various other stuff. As I said,
all our admin. work was done on a 370.

--
Pete

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Sunday, November 15, 2015 at 5:42:54 PM UTC-5, Mike Hore wrote:

> However the process looks very bureaucratic, even having to send a
> request by snail mail. It would be very easy for them to decide it's
> still confidential, especially as I'm just a private individual, not a
> university. And then from the terms and conditions I wouldn't have the
> right to send it to Bitsavers. It looks to me like it would be much
> better for somebody within IBM to do it.

In fairness to IBM, it would not be easy for them decide if something
like this is still confidential. First, a lot of factors go into
whether something can be released or not. Secondly, the archives
can't decide that, it must inquire to technical people.

Some years ago IBM was burned by malicious individuals utilizing
stuff in their archives. So, it would be understandable that
they'd be gun shy.

[Mike Hore]

OK thanks for that. Yes, that makes sense. Legal advice would probably
be needed as well as technical, given that the document WAS confidential
in the '80s when the technology under the Machine Interface was secret
to preserve the integrity of the system and its technology independence.
There was all sorts of antitrust stuff going on in the `80s which as
you know is why everything under the MI was labelled "microcode". I'm
sure that's all ancient history now, but somebody would need to decide that.

I might try sending my request anyway, but I'm not too hopeful.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Monday, November 16, 2015 at 5:51:12 PM UTC-5, Mike Hore wrote:

> I might try sending my request anyway, but I'm not too hopeful.

Good luck!

I don't know if they still allow visitors, but if practical,
it is a fascinating place.

[Mike Hore]

I'd love to, but it's a long swim from here (Darwin, Australia)
:-)

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, November 16, 2015 at 5:52:20 PM UTC-7, Mike Hore wrote:

> I'd love to, but it's a long swim from here (Darwin, Australia)
> :-)

Well, you may be in a poor position to visit IBM, but you're in a good position to prove the world is round.

Beteween yourself and someone in Sydney, by determining geographic North or
South, comparing the time sundials show, to prove that the right number of time
zones exist between your location and theirs... and then showing that the drive
from Sydney to Perth is of the correct distance, you can show that the Earth
can't be either a projection centered on the North Pole, or an adjusted version
with the southern continents shrunk to their correct size.

Which is the last surviving 'flat earth' layout that is sometimes defended.

John Savard

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Monday, November 16, 2015 at 7:52:20 PM UTC-5, Mike Hore wrote:


> > I don't know if they still allow visitors, but if practical,
> > it is a fascinating place.

> I'd love to, but it's a long swim from here (Darwin, Australia)

But I heard Australians are great swimmers <g>.

Actually, I always wanted to visit Australia. Seems like a neat place.
I have the photo book, 'A Day in the Life of Australia", although that's
some years old now.

[Mike Hore]

Good suggestion. Actually right now I'm watching a Cricket match in
Perth on TV (if you don't know much about Cricket, that's fine, you have
to be born into it :-) It will still be broad daylight there after the
sun has set here. Actually right on sunset I could look at the shadows
on the field and do some trig. But actually I'd be a bit more
interested in the score ;-)

Cheers, Mike.

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, November 16, 2015 at 11:44:25 PM UTC-7, Mike Hore wrote:

> It will still be broad daylight there after the
> sun has set here.

I see my knowledge of Australian geography is somewhat lacking. I had thought
that Darwin was located about where Perth actually is. In the case of Darwin,
travel to Sydney would likely be by ship rather than by road, and of course the
sea captains would be sworn members of the round-earth conspiracy - or so the
flat-earth people would say.

Unless the Northern Territory is slightly less inaccessible and impassable than
the textbooks of my youth had said.

John Savard

[Peter Flass]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Monday, November 16, 2015 at 11:44:25 PM UTC-7, Mike Hore wrote:
>
>> It will still be broad daylight there after the
>> sun has set here.
>
> I see my knowledge of Australian geography is somewhat lacking. I had thought
> that Darwin was located about where Perth actually is.

I remember Darwin from WW II. Well, not actually remember...

In the case of Darwin,
> travel to Sydney would likely be by ship rather than by road, and of course the
> sea captains would be sworn members of the round-earth conspiracy - or so the
> flat-earth people would say.
>
> Unless the Northern Territory is slightly less inaccessible and impassable than
> the textbooks of my youth had said.
>
> John Savard
>

--
Pete

[Greymaus]

AFAIK, the original town site was abandoned some time ago, and
a new site somehat inland was built.


--
greymaus
.
.
...

[Mike Hore]

I see you all need to be brought up to date a bit :-)

> On 2015-11-17, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Monday, November 16, 2015 at 11:44:25 PM UTC-7, Mike Hore wrote:
>>
>>> It will still be broad daylight there after the
>>> sun has set here.
>>
>> I see my knowledge of Australian geography is somewhat lacking. I had thought
>> that Darwin was located about where Perth actually is. In the case of Darwin,
>> travel to Sydney would likely be by ship rather than by road, and of course the
>> sea captains would be sworn members of the round-earth conspiracy - or so the
>> flat-earth people would say.
>>
>> Unless the Northern Territory is slightly less inaccessible and impassable than
>> the textbooks of my youth had said.

It's very accessible by road, sea, air and rail. Darwin is on the
coast, and has a HUGE harbor. Our main problem is we're a long way from
the other main population centres so the rest of Australia seems to
think we're on the other side of Pluto somewhere. Most people fly to
other places in Australia because of distance. It's 5 days to Sydney by
road.

A favorite trivia question is, what are the 5 national capitals nearest
to Darwin, in order going out?
(Dili, Jakarta, Port Moresby, Singapore, Canberra - that's Australia's.)

Cheers, Mike.


--

[Charles Richmond]

"Mike Hore" <mike_h...@OVE.invalid.aapt.net.au> wrote in message
news:n2gbco$ge4$1...@dont-email.me...

Yes, and Texarkana Texas is closer to Chicago Illinois than it is to El Paso
Texas.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

[Quadibloc]

On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 3:59:49 PM UTC-7, Mike Hore wrote:
> It's 5 days to Sydney by
> road.

So there _are_ roads going through the Northern Territory.

Does one have to take special precautions when travelling along them? Or are there towns and villages and gas stations along their length, much like anywhere else?

(Special precautions being things like taking an emergency radio, 14 days supply of food and water in case your car breaks down, cans of gasoline for stretches of road longer than the capacity of one's fuel tank, and so on.)

If anything even remotely resembling that were the case, such a car trip would
not be for the unwary. But then, going from Sydney to Perth by road, even if it
isn't through deadly impassable jungle, still goes through a lot of Outback, so
one probably should bring extra water along for that kind of trip too.

John Savard

[Mike Hore]

On 18/11/2015 11:06 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 3:59:49 PM UTC-7, Mike Hore wrote:
>> It's 5 days to Sydney by
>> road.
>
> So there _are_ roads going through the Northern Territory.

Yes, of course. We're civilized here!!!

>
> Does one have to take special precautions when travelling along them? Or are there towns and villages and gas stations along their length, much like anywhere else?
>

Yes. There are a couple of sealed highways, mostly one lane each way
with some passing lanes. But the distances are vast and the temperature
usually hot. So it's wise to take plenty of water and let people know
where you're planning to go. The main highway from Darwin to Adelaide
is reasonably busy though, and there are towns with gas stations every
100 km or so. So if you break down somebody will come past soon. But
there's no mobile phone (cell phone) coverage once you get out of the towns.

> (Special precautions being things like taking an emergency radio, 14 days supply of
food and water in case your car breaks down, cans of gasoline for
stretches of road longer
than the capacity of one's fuel tank, and so on.)

Only if you go of the major highways. Then yes, definitely.

>
> If anything even remotely resembling that were the case, such a car trip would
> not be for the unwary. But then, going from Sydney to Perth by road, even if it
> isn't through deadly impassable jungle, still goes through a lot of Outback, so
> one probably should bring extra water along for that kind of trip too.

It's not too bad going Darwin to Perth -- you go south to Katherine,
then west on the Victoria highway into Western Australia and right down
the coast. I've done it. It's a sealed highway all the way, but not
very busy once you get away from towns, and it's a VERY long trip. You
won't do it in a weekend.

Basically Australia is about the same size as continental USA, but only
1/10 the population, and most of that is in the SE corner.

[maus]

Amongst the many things that irish people do is driving road trains,
truck-trailer combinations that the Australians use to transport stuff
long distances. (Actually, Darwin would be a bit far for cattle, without
rests. Roads are generally dirt, from what I was told.

Sydney to Perth is probably the most boring road trip on earth, again, I
am told. Film on TV about the train trip, with most passengers older than
pension age, reduced or nil ticket price.

[jmfbahciv]

Mike Hore wrote:
> On 18/11/2015 11:06 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 3:59:49 PM UTC-7, Mike Hore wrote:
>>> It's 5 days to Sydney by
>>> road.
>>
>> So there _are_ roads going through the Northern Territory.
>
> Yes, of course. We're civilized here!!!
>
>>
>> Does one have to take special precautions when travelling along them? Or
are there towns and villages and gas stations along their length, much like
anywhere else?
>>
>
> Yes. There are a couple of sealed highways, mostly one lane each way
> with some passing lanes. But the distances are vast and the temperature
> usually hot. So it's wise to take plenty of water and let people know
> where you're planning to go. The main highway from Darwin to Adelaide
> is reasonably busy though, and there are towns with gas stations every
> 100 km or so. So if you break down somebody will come past soon. But
> there's no mobile phone (cell phone) coverage once you get out of the towns.
>

Please define "sealed" highways.

<snip>

/BAH

[Greymaus]

I presume he means `Tarmacked', tarred.

[Quadibloc]

On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 8:16:46 AM UTC-7, Greymaus wrote:
> On 2015-11-18, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
> > Mike Hore wrote:

> >> Yes. There are a couple of sealed highways, mostly one lane each way
> >> with some passing lanes.

> > Please define "sealed" highways.

> I presume he means `Tarmacked', tarred.

Ah. What is sometimes called 'macadam', or what we would call, in North
America, *paved* highways.

When I read that, I was thinking of *tunnels*, or at least highways with
covering over them, so there was no way in or out other than by going along
them to their ends.

John Savard

[Greymaus]

On 2015-11-18, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

A friend that travelled in South Carolina a while ago said that a lot of
country roads there were `dirt'.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:52:39 AM UTC-5, Greymaus wrote:
> A friend that travelled in South Carolina a while ago said that a lot of
> country roads there were `dirt'.

If you look closely at a traditional road map, it will show what
roads aren't paved. They're rare in the U.S., but can be found in
a few places.

For instance, in northeastern, PA, there are a few unpaved roads in
the NW section of Susquehanna county (light gray lines).
http://www.dot7.state.pa.us/BPR_PDF_FILES/MAPS/Statewide/otm/otm_ne.pdf

[Scott Lurndal]

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:52:39 AM UTC-5, Greymaus wrote:
>> A friend that travelled in South Carolina a while ago said that a lot of
>> country roads there were `dirt'.
>
>If you look closely at a traditional road map, it will show what
>roads aren't paved. They're rare in the U.S., but can be found in
>a few places.

They _might_ be rare on the east coast. They're certainly not rare
west of PA.

There's 20 miles of washboard gravel to get to Bodie Ca, for example.

Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, NoDak, SoDak, Nebraska, all have many
unpaved (usually tertiaryi) roads.

[Dan Espen]

Not rare in the Pine Barrens (NJ).

--
Dan Espen

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 1:25:26 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> There's 20 miles of washboard gravel to get to Bodie Ca, for example.

The legend of the latest Penna map merely referred to them as
"unpaved roads".

However, earlier map legends were more specific, such as whether
the road was dirt or gravel; and maybe even more unpaved categories.

When young, I remember being on gravel roads that were paved with
large stones (like railroad ballast). We had to drive extremely
slowly on that, and it probably did a job on our tires. Fine gravel
or dirt allowed a little faster, but then they had a bad dust
problem.


Harry Truman made his political mark by paving roads in his county,
in his first political job.

Despite the independence and anti-tax feeling of people back
then, they did not object to pay property taxes for better roads.

[Greymaus]

Such maps are there to inform, instead of propagandise!. (our local one
are propaganda). Lowest grade public roads here are tarred, but grass grows in
the middle. Brings me back to my youth.

[Greymaus]

I suppose cost-benefit is a deciding point. It would cost a lot to tar
obscure Australian, (Obscure because little-used), and with the heat
and cold at night, might need special treatment)

[Peter Flass]

Arizona. Some of they can barely be called "roads".

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

I was thinking of limited-access highways; I'm glad we cleared this up. I
suppose only in Oz could you have to specify that a highway is paved.

--
Pete

[Alfred Falk]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:66fbf0f5-8173-435e...@googlegroups.com:

Terminology does differ from country to country. Back in the 80's I was
visiting a Swedish friend (at the time a Volvo employee). He pointed out to
me that Volvo's ads in Candada bragged about how long their cars lasted in
Sweden with it <some large number> of kilometers of _unpaved_ roads. While
Canadians would assume this meant loose gravel or even "dirt", in fact it
meant asphalt on gravel which we call "paved" in Canada.

Canada certainly has lots of gravel roads where economics don't justify any
kind of paving. Longest I can think of us tge 768 km Dempster Hwy from
Dawson City, Yukon to Inuvik, Northwest Territories. It is built on
permafrost which makes for interesting problems as the road causes the
underlying soil to melt and sink.

As for "dirt", I don't think we have many public roads with no surface
treatment. There is the 30 km Gap Road between the East and West Cypress
Hills in SW Saskatchewan. It has warnings that say, in effect, "Abandon all
hope ye who enter here when it is wet". It is rather charming when it's
dry. Every now and then you have to stop to open barbed wire gates or shoo
cattle out of the way.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

They sure aren't rare in the southwest.

[Mike Hore]

...
(snip long conversation while I was asleep)

Yes, dialect difference (also time zone!!)

US Australia (and some other places)

paved sealed
unpaved unsealed / dirt / gravel (depending)

>
> Amongst the many things that irish people do is driving road trains,
> truck-trailer combinations that the Australians use to transport stuff
> long distances. (Actually, Darwin would be a bit far for cattle, without
> rests. Roads are generally dirt, from what I was told.

Yes, we have road trains (and that's what we call them too). They're
very long of course, and if overtaking, you need over a kilometre of
forward visibility. That's usually OK, as outback it's mostly quite
flat and the straight sections are very long.

Sealed roads are actually normally of quite good quality. Outside towns
you can do 100km/hr easily in most places. The Stuart Highway (Adelaide
- Darwin) has mostly a 130 k/h limit in the Northern Territory, and some
sections (experimentally) are unlimited. The road is actually excellent
and you can do these speeds quite comfortably.

>
> Sydney to Perth is probably the most boring road trip on earth, again, I
> am told.

That would be true. Adelaide to Darwin likewise. Also Perth to Broome.

> Film on TV about the train trip, with most passengers older than
> pension age, reduced or nil ticket price.

No no no, not nil. Never ever :-(
You can get a bit of a discount if you're a pensioner. But not much.

You go by train for the experience. If you just want to get from A to
B, you fly. It's much cheaper overall. That's for long trips of course.

Building over permafrost is a new idea for me. There's no permafrost
anywhere in Australia. Here in Darwin we're only 12 deg S latitude, so
the climate must be like the Caribbean. Once you've been here a few
years you don't want to live anywhere else :-) We don't do winter.
Max temp is 33-34 deg C the year round. In July it can get down to 24
at night, and everyone complains about the cold!

Getting back slightly to the original topic -- Frank Soltis mentioned in
one of his books, referring to Rochester MN, "Where the winters are cold
and the chips are hot". Darwin would be "where winter doesn't exist and
EVERYTHING is hot". :-)

[Rod Speed]

"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM000524D...@aca4007d.ipt.aol.com...

Normal roads, as opposed to a dirt road.

[hunar]

"Greymaus" <ma...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnn4pjtp...@dmaus.org...

> On 2015-11-18, Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:52:39 AM UTC-5, Greymaus wrote:
>>>> A friend that travelled in South Carolina a while ago said that a lot
>>>> of
>>>> country roads there were `dirt'.
>>>
>>>If you look closely at a traditional road map, it will show what
>>>roads aren't paved. They're rare in the U.S., but can be found in
>>>a few places.
>>
>> They _might_ be rare on the east coast. They're certainly not rare
>> west of PA.
>>
>> There's 20 miles of washboard gravel to get to Bodie Ca, for example.
>>
>> Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, NoDak, SoDak, Nebraska, all have many
>> unpaved (usually tertiaryi) roads.
>
> I suppose cost-benefit is a deciding point. It would cost a lot to tar
> obscure Australian, (Obscure because little-used),

Yeah, just not feasible with plenty of them.

> and with the heat and cold at night, might need special treatment)

No they don’t for that. Tho you do sometimes see a badly made
road quite literally melting and breaking up in the hottest weather
as the traffic goes over it. Doesn’t happen with highways tho.

[hunar]

"Peter Flass" <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1393182919.469573538.903...@news.eternal-september.org...

Lots of other places too, like Africa, South America, Siberia, China etc etc
etc.

[hunar]

"Alfred Falk" <fa...@arc.ab.ca> wrote in message
news:XnsA5569328CA...@213.239.209.88...

We have lots of those, with no warnings at all.

> It is rather charming when it's dry.

Yeah, you can end up with massive great ruts where a truck has
gone thru when its wet that you can't drive a car thru, because
they are so deep that the car wheels don’t even touch the bottom.

> Every now and then you have to stop to open barbed wire gates or shoo
> cattle out of the way.

We can get that last even on fully sealed national highways.

The cattle are being moved down them on foot instead of in trucks.

Not shoo so much as wait till they wander out of the way.

Those usually do have warning signs on the road put there
by those who are moving the cattle that way, usually in drought.

[hunar]

"maus" <ma...@mail.com> wrote in message news:slrnn4ojk8...@d2.org...

> On 2015-11-18, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 3:59:49 PM UTC-7, Mike Hore wrote:
>>> It's 5 days to Sydney by
>>> road.
>>
>> So there _are_ roads going through the Northern Territory.
>>
>> Does one have to take special precautions when travelling along them? Or
>> are there towns and villages and gas stations along their length, much
>> like anywhere else?
>>
>> (Special precautions being things like taking an emergency radio, 14 days
>> supply of food and water in case your car breaks down, cans of gasoline
>> for stretches of road longer than the capacity of one's fuel tank, and so
>> on.)
>>
>> If anything even remotely resembling that were the case, such a car trip
>> would
>> not be for the unwary. But then, going from Sydney to Perth by road, even
>> if it
>> isn't through deadly impassable jungle, still goes through a lot of
>> Outback, so
>> one probably should bring extra water along for that kind of trip too.
>>
>> John Savard
>
> Amongst the many things that irish people do is driving road trains,
> truck-trailer combinations that the Australians use to transport stuff
> long distances. (Actually, Darwin would be a bit far for cattle, without
> rests.

Not its not. The bulk of the live cattle trade with Indonesia goes
out thru Darwin with no rests from the cattle properties in northern
australia they are move from using road trains.

> Roads are generally dirt, from what I was told.

Yes, only the main highways are sealed.

Lots of footage of that stuff in the series Outback Truckers.

> Sydney to Perth is probably the most boring road trip on earth,

Yeah, the bulk of it from SA thru WA is quite literally all
one straight stretch, not a tree in sight for much of it.

> again, I am told.

You can see it on google street view.
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-31.7701221,128.5168892,3a,75y,59h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sgRpQtgElTXJEoJZqiEOs_Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DgRpQtgElTXJEoJZqiEOs_Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D392%26h%3D106%26yaw%3D59.09058%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

> Film on TV about the train trip, with most passengers
> older than pension age, reduced or nil ticket price.

No one gets it for free, but certainly very
heavily discounted for pensioners etc.

[hunar]

"Quadibloc" <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
news:46ec4e6f-c036-4676...@googlegroups.com...

> On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 3:59:49 PM UTC-7, Mike Hore wrote:
>> It's 5 days to Sydney by
>> road.
>
> So there _are_ roads going through the Northern Territory.

> Does one have to take special precautions when travelling along them?

Not with the major national highways.

> Or are there towns and villages and gas stations along their length, much
> like anywhere else?

Yes, tho the distance between them can be very great.

> (Special precautions being things like taking an emergency radio,
> 14 days supply of food and water in case your car breaks down,

Not with the major national highways, but yes with the less used roads.

> cans of gasoline for stretches of road longer
> than the capacity of one's fuel tank, and so on.)

Not with the major national highways, but you
do need to be careful to fill up when you can.

> If anything even remotely resembling that were the case, such a car trip
> would
> not be for the unwary. But then, going from Sydney to Perth by road, even
> if it
> isn't through deadly impassable jungle, still goes through a lot of
> Outback, so
> one probably should bring extra water along for that kind of trip too.

Its not essential on the major national highways, but is for the rest.

[Osmium]

"hunar" wrote:

> Lots of footage of that stuff in the series Outback Truckers.

I don't think _Outback Truckers_ has been shown on US cable. There used to
be a good Australian science/ technology show that has been gone for several
years, I can't recall the name of it. That was the only Australian TV shown
on the mainstream cable channels that comes to mind.

[jmfbahciv]

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:52:39 AM UTC-5, Greymaus wrote:
>> A friend that travelled in South Carolina a while ago said that a lot of
>> country roads there were `dirt'.
>
> If you look closely at a traditional road map, it will show what
> roads aren't paved. They're rare in the U.S., but can be found in
> a few places.

They are not rare in Michigan.

>
> For instance, in northeastern, PA, there are a few unpaved roads in
> the NW section of Susquehanna county (light gray lines).
> http://www.dot7.state.pa.us/BPR_PDF_FILES/MAPS/Statewide/otm/otm_ne.pdf

/BAH

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 6:25:58 AM UTC-7, Osmium wrote:

> I don't think _Outback Truckers_ has been shown on US cable.

What? There are enough reality TV shows to fill all those channels out there? And
here I thought it was directly intended to give Ice Road Truckers some
competition.

John Savard

[Scott Lurndal]

Mike Hore <mike_h...@OVE.invalid.aapt.net.au> writes:
>...
>(snip long conversation while I was asleep)
>
>Yes, dialect difference (also time zone!!)
>
>US Australia (and some other places)
>
>paved sealed
>unpaved unsealed / dirt / gravel (depending)
>

Don't forget pavement (uk) vs. sidewalk (us).

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 18 Nov 2015 19:12:20 GMT

Greymaus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:

> Such maps are there to inform, instead of propagandise!. (our local one
> are propaganda). Lowest grade public roads here are tarred, but grass
> grows in the middle. Brings me back to my youth.

There's one like that at the end of my drive.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

[Dave Garland]

On 11/18/2015 6:36 PM, Mike Hore wrote:
> ...
> (snip long conversation while I was asleep)
>
> Yes, dialect difference (also time zone!!)
>
> US Australia (and some other places)
>
> paved sealed
> unpaved unsealed / dirt / gravel (depending)
>

To confuse things more, in the US road surface (bituminous or even
gravel) is "sealed" in a maintenance procedure that involves spraying
the surface with oil or asphalt and then spreading gravel on it.
Apparently the proper term is "chip sealed" but I don't think I had
ever heard anyone say that before googling just now.

Dirt/gravel would be subsets of "unpaved" here.

[Greymaus]

Original real roads were built by the Romans, incredibly fast.

Then we have

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McAdam

They are still in the Highlands of Scotland. probably 30mph max.
There is one, tarred now, from Rathfarnam, Dublin, to Laragh. It was built to
allow the British Army to quickly deploy in to the mountains, as the scots ones
were.

[hunar]

"Osmium" <r124c...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:db60v4...@mid.individual.net...

> "hunar" wrote:
>
>> Lots of footage of that stuff in the series Outback Truckers.
>
> I don't think _Outback Truckers_ has been shown on US cable.

It is available on Pirate Bay and Kickass torrents, https://kat.cr/

> There used to be a good Australian science/ technology show that has been
> gone for several years, I can't recall the name of it.

Likely Quantum, now called Catalyst.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalyst_(TV_program)

[hunar]

"Scott Lurndal" <sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote in message
news:%Xl3y.114322$4M.7...@fx17.iad...

That should be footpath (uk) vs. sidewalk (us).

[Scott Lurndal]

Give it up speedy. Both pavement, footway and footpath are
in use in the UK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk

The point is that pavement means something completely different
stateside.

[Peter Flass]

They used to use oil contaminated with PCBs. I have no idea how many miles
of road were affected.

--
Pete

[Bob Eager]

No, it shouldn't. Pavement is the usual term. Footpath can be used, but
more often refers to a path not associated with a road.



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

[Charles Richmond]

"Peter Flass" <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:240842677.469573669.2004...@news.eternal-september.org...

Long ago there used to be a law in the state of Texas... that *no* stump in
the road could be over 12 inches high. It was also illegal to shoot buffalo
from the back of a moving train.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:23:31 -0600, Dave Garland
<dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:

> To confuse things more, in the US road surface (bituminous or even
> gravel) is "sealed" in a maintenance procedure that involves spraying
> the surface with oil or asphalt and then spreading gravel on it.
> Apparently the proper term is "chip sealed" but I don't think I had
> ever heard anyone say that before googling just now.

I think that I've only heard "chip sealed", but only the cyclists
among my acquaintance ever mention it -- a recent chip sealing is a
good reason to avoid a road, even if it means abandoning a
long-planned group ride, because the "chips" roll under your tires and
are likely to cause a fall. Even after traffic has swept the loose
stuff off, the chips cause a very rough ride until they have been
pounded flat.

I once had a terrifying experience when turning onto a road that
turned out to have been chip sealed, but not directly caused by the
sealing -- excess gravel had filled in a deep hole and made it look
exactly like the rest of the surface. I fell into the hole, but
somehow didn't crash.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[hunar]

"Joy Beeson" <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:s5ts4b9kvdhp0smnp...@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:23:31 -0600, Dave Garland
> <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>
>> To confuse things more, in the US road surface (bituminous or even
>> gravel) is "sealed" in a maintenance procedure that involves spraying
>> the surface with oil or asphalt and then spreading gravel on it.
>> Apparently the proper term is "chip sealed" but I don't think I had
>> ever heard anyone say that before googling just now.
>
> I think that I've only heard "chip sealed", but only the cyclists
> among my acquaintance ever mention it -- a recent chip sealing is a
> good reason to avoid a road, even if it means abandoning a
> long-planned group ride, because the "chips" roll under your tires and
> are likely to cause a fall. Even after traffic has swept the loose
> stuff off, the chips cause a very rough ride until they have been
> pounded flat.

They don't ever get 'pounded flat'

[Charlie Gibbs]

ObThreadDrift: I once wobbled off a very narrow path and took
a header into a 6-foot-deep ditch full of blackberry brambles.
It took a long time to figure out how to disentangle myself from
my bicycle (let alone climb out) without shredding myself (any
worse than I already was). Ouch.

--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[Stan Barr]

On 19 Nov 2015 20:50:19 GMT, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 05:58:19 +1100, hunar wrote:
>
>> "Scott Lurndal" <sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote in message
>> news:%Xl3y.114322$4M.7...@fx17.iad...
>>> Mike Hore <mike_h...@OVE.invalid.aapt.net.au> writes:
>>>>...
>>>>(snip long conversation while I was asleep)
>>>>
>>>>Yes, dialect difference (also time zone!!)
>>>>
>>>>US Australia (and some other places)
>>>>
>>>>paved sealed unpaved unsealed / dirt / gravel (depending)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Don't forget pavement (uk) vs. sidewalk (us).
>>
>> That should be footpath (uk) vs. sidewalk (us).
>
> No, it shouldn't. Pavement is the usual term. Footpath can be used, but
> more often refers to a path not associated with a road.

And doesn't have to be sealed...a lot of the footpaths round here are
dirt (actually clay) or gravel.

--
Stan Barr pla...@bluesomatic.org

[Greymaus]

I would think that (not shooting buffalo) was from the 1860's for a while, when
there were still great herds of buffalo, and trains were still fairly slow.
People (rich people) would arrive from Europe, shoot wildlife from comfortable
railway cabins, and return, telling stories of hunting in America.

[Peter Flass]

Or wood chips.

--
Pete

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 11:36:37 AM UTC-7, Greymaus wrote:

> Original real roads were built by the Romans, incredibly fast.

Yes; unlike roads of macadam construction, Roman-style roads generally don't have
frequent problems with potholes. This form of construction, therefore, should
commend itself to our cities today, at least for the most major thoroughfares.

John Savard

[jmfbahciv]

I didn't know that. Kewl! Lanugage is fascinating.


/BAH

[Scott Lurndal]

Decomposed granite is used for paths around here. Hardens nicely and looks
good.

http://www.gardenista.com/posts/hardscaping-101-decomposed-granite

A local non-profit is sponsering a non-fee friday at all the redwood
state parks on black friday. Time for a visit to Big Basin for some
nice hiking to escape the shopping hordes.

[Andrew Swallow]

A footpath (UK) is a road not a sidewalk. It is a very narrow road so
cars and horses cannot use it.

A pavement (UK) is the paved section at the side of a road.

[Alfred Falk]

"hunar" <hu...@nospam.com> wrote in
news:db54cu...@mid.individual.net:

>
>
> "Alfred Falk" <fa...@arc.ab.ca> wrote in message
> news:XnsA5569328CA...@213.239.209.88...
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>> news:66fbf0f5-8173-435e...@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 8:16:46 AM UTC-7, Greymaus wrote:
>>>> On 2015-11-18, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> > Mike Hore wrote:
>>>
>>>> >> Yes. There are a couple of sealed highways, mostly one lane each
>>>> >> way with some passing lanes.
>>>
>>>> > Please define "sealed" highways.
>>>
>>>> I presume he means `Tarmacked', tarred.
>>>
>>> Ah. What is sometimes called 'macadam', or what we would call, in
>>> North America, *paved* highways.
>>>
>>> When I read that, I was thinking of *tunnels*, or at least highways
>>> with covering over them, so there was no way in or out other than by
>>> going along them to their ends.
>>>
>>> John Savard
>>
>> Terminology does differ from country to country. Back in the 80's I
>> was visiting a Swedish friend (at the time a Volvo employee). He
>> pointed out to me that Volvo's ads in Candada bragged about how long
>> their cars lasted in Sweden with it <some large number> of kilometers
>> of _unpaved_ roads. While
>> Canadians would assume this meant loose gravel or even "dirt", in fact
>> it meant asphalt on gravel which we call "paved" in Canada.
>>
>> Canada certainly has lots of gravel roads where economics don't
>> justify any kind of paving. Longest I can think of us tge 768 km
>> Dempster Hwy from Dawson City, Yukon to Inuvik, Northwest Territories.
>> It is built on permafrost which makes for interesting problems as the
>> road causes the underlying soil to melt and sink.
>>
>> As for "dirt", I don't think we have many public roads with no surface
>> treatment. There is the 30 km Gap Road between the East and West
>> Cypress Hills in SW Saskatchewan. It has warnings that say, in
>> effect, "Abandon all hope ye who enter here when it is wet".
>
> We have lots of those, with no warnings at all.

In Canada we don't have a lot of _public_ dirt roads anymore. We certainly
did 50 years ago. Population and economics figure into this. In the far
north, there are lots of winter roads which are operational only from
freeze-up to spring thaw. They are not passable in summer. The population
is close to zilch and they're mainly about mineral exploration, but there
are isolated communities served by these.

In the south, most dirt roads are for access to farm fields, mineral
exploration or logging and the like.

>> It is rather charming when it's dry.
>
> Yeah, you can end up with massive great ruts where a truck has
> gone thru when its wet that you can't drive a car thru, because
> they are so deep that the car wheels don’t even touch the bottom.

Substrate makes a difference. Something that make the Cypress Hills Gap
"interesting" when wet is that the soil is high in bentonite, the stuff used
in the oil industry as a lubricant - "drilling mud".

>> Every now and then you have to stop to open barbed wire gates or shoo
>> cattle out of the way.
>
> We can get that last even on fully sealed national highways.
> The cattle are being moved down them on foot instead of in trucks.

We have cattle drives too, on and along highways, although I doubt it would
be allowed on limited access 4-line highways like the Trans-Canada. The Gap
road I was talking about is actually through mostly open ranchland.

> Not shoo so much as wait till they wander out of the way.

Yes.

> Those usually do have warning signs on the road put there
> by those who are moving the cattle that way, usually in drought.

[Charlie Gibbs]

Not likely. The mayor's brother-in-law's construction company doesn't
build them that way, and they make too much money filling potholes.

[Joy Beeson]

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:14:13 +1100, "hunar" <hu...@nospam.com> wrote:

. . .

> > Even after traffic has swept the loose
> > stuff off, the chips cause a very rough ride until they have been
> > pounded flat.
>
> They don't ever get 'pounded flat'

But they do get sufficiently embedded that the ride becomes merely
rough.

[hunar]

"Alfred Falk" <fa...@arc.ab.ca> wrote in message

news:XnsA5587B3B65...@213.239.209.88...

Yeah, makes a hell of a difference. The soil around here is
mostly selling clays that can be a hell of a problem in with
a decent modern 4WD if you don’t know what you are doing.

> Something that make the Cypress Hills Gap "interesting"
> when wet is that the soil is high in bentonite, the stuff
> used in the oil industry as a lubricant - "drilling mud".

Sounds similar to ours.

>>> Every now and then you have to stop to open barbed
>>> wire gates or shoo cattle out of the way.

>> We can get that last even on fully sealed national highways.
>> The cattle are being moved down them on foot instead of in trucks.

> We have cattle drives too, on and along highways, although I doubt it
> would
> be allowed on limited access 4-line highways like the Trans-Canada.

Yeah, we don’t allow that on our equivalents.

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> Not likely. The mayor's brother-in-law's construction company doesn't
> build them that way, and they make too much money filling potholes.

I drove cross country in the winter to join science center in cambridge
... there was marked difference in I90 road quality crossing into mass
(mass turnpike) ... i made reference to frost heaves being worse on mass
turnpike than Idaho county roads in the rockies (i.e. little or no road
bed rather than 6ft deep needed as countermeasure to frost heaves).
Mass natives made jokes about interests required constant/reoccurring
road repair every year (relative small scale compared to the "big dig"
where claims were tha 90%, nearly $20B? disappeared into pockets).

past posts mentioning mass turnpike (& annual reoccurring
revenue)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#28 trains was: Al Gore and the Internet
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#35 pop density was: trains was: Al Gore and the Internet
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#36 pop density was: trains was: Al Gore and the Internet
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#68 Killer Hard Drives - Shrapnel?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#67 The problem with installable operating systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#69 The problem with installable operating systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003j.html#11 Idiot drivers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006g.html#49 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006h.html#36 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006h.html#39 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006s.html#6 Greatest Software Ever Written?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007p.html#74 GETMAIN/FREEMAIN and virtual storage backing up
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007q.html#38 what does xp do when system is copying
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008k.html#73 Cormpany sponsored insurance
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008l.html#22 dollar coins
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008l.html#24 dollar coins
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008l.html#26 dollar coins
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010n.html#55 The 10 Highest-Paid CEOs Who Laid Off The Most Employees
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012o.html#12 OT: Tax breaks to Oracle debated
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#7 U.S. Files Breakup Plan
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#72 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95


past posts mentioning "big dig"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003i.html#25 TGV in the USA?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008k.html#73 Cormpany sponsored insurance
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008r.html#41 fraying infrastructure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008r.html#56 IBM drops Power7 drain in 'Blue Waters'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009j.html#0 Urban transportation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009o.html#55 TV Big Bang 10/12/09
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#11 The PC industry is heading for collapse
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#14 The PC industry is heading for collapse
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012o.html#15 OT: Tax breaks to Oracle debated
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012o.html#18 other days around me
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013e.html#68 What Makes an Architecture Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013n.html#48 'Free Unix!': The world-changing proclamationmade30yearsagotoday
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014d.html#4 Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014j.html#105 only sometimes From looms to computers to looms
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#42 Future of support for telephone rotary dial ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#27 Federal Subsidies

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

[Andrew Swallow]

On 20/11/2015 23:27, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2015-11-20, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 11:36:37 AM UTC-7, Greymaus wrote:
>>
>>> Original real roads were built by the Romans, incredibly fast.
>>
>> Yes; unlike roads of macadam construction, Roman-style roads generally
>> don't have frequent problems with potholes. This form of construction,
>> therefore, should commend itself to our cities today, at least for the
>> most major thoroughfares.
>
> Not likely. The mayor's brother-in-law's construction company doesn't
> build them that way, and they make too much money filling potholes.
>

The construction company will build the road to whatever standards the
government chooses. Choosing includes inspections. The standards for
roads needs improving.

[gareth]

"Quadibloc" <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
news:9e7eed39-e172-4fe9...@googlegroups.com...

> Yes; unlike roads of macadam construction, Roman-style roads generally
> don't have
> frequent problems with potholes. This form of construction, therefore,
> should
> commend itself to our cities today, at least for the most major
> thoroughfares.

Cobble(r)s! ? :-)

[hunar]

"Andrew Swallow" <am.sw...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:W7mdnWkEdplS-s3L...@giganews.com...

Yes.

> The standards for roads needs improving.

No, the government chooses the standard that makes economic sense.

[Andrew Swallow]

Lots of repairs are expensive. It may be cheaper to go for a design of
road that can go for say 20 years between resurfacing.

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Andrew Swallow <am.sw...@btinternet.com> writes:
> Lots of repairs are expensive. It may be cheaper to go for a design of
> road that can go for say 20 years between resurfacing.

major US highways are designed for 18wheeler axle-ton mile load lifetimes
(modulo basic structural issues like frost heaves) ... other traffic is
effectively negligible:

603.1 Introduction

The primary goal of the design of the pavement structural section is
to provide a structurally stable and durable pavement and base system
which, with a minimum of maintenance, will carry the projected traffic
loading for the designated design period. This topic discusses the
factors to be considered and procedures to be followed in developing a
projection of truck traffic for design of the "pavement structure" or
the structural section for specific projects.

Pavement structural sections are designed to carry the projected truck
traffic considering the expanded truck traffic volume, mix, and the
axle loads converted to 80 kN equivalent single axle loads (ESAL's)
expected to occur during the design period. The effects on pavement
life of passenger cars, pickups, and two-axle trucks are considered to
be negligible.

Traffic information that is required for structural section design
includes axle loads, axle configurations, and number of
applications. The results of the AASHO Road Test (performed in the
early 1960's in Illinois) have shown that the damaging effect of the
passage of an axle load can be represented by a number of 80 kN
ESAL's. For example, one application of a 53 kN single axle load was
found to cause damage equal to an application of approximately 0.23 of
an 80 kN single axle load, and four applications of a 53 kN single
axle were found to cause the same damage (or reduction in
serviceability) as one application of an 80 kN single axle.

... snip ...

past posts
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http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004e.html#7 OT Global warming
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006g.html#5 The Pankian Metaphor
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http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006g.html#12 The Pankian Metaphor
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http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007q.html#21 Horrid thought about Politics, President Bush, and Democrats
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http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008k.html#68 Historian predicts the end of 'science superpowers'
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http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010n.html#39 Central vs. expanded storage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010p.html#52 TCM's Moguls documentary series
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http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011n.html#83 A Close Look at the Perry Tax Plan
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[hunar]

"Andrew Swallow" <am.sw...@btinternet.com> wrote in message

news:N4qdndklGo1rgszL...@giganews.com...

Might be why they don’t have lots of repairs.

> It may be cheaper to go for a design of road that can go for say 20 years
> between resurfacing.

Corse they calculate stuff like that, and also consider
what money they have for doing it in the first place.

[Dave Garland]

Sure. But if your timeline is on the order of 5 years, and you're
personally getting financial benefits from the contractor, the
calculation might go differently.

Maybe it's not like that in Australia (I don't particularly believe
that, but don't know), but there are a lot of places in North America
where that's how it is.

[hunar]

"Dave Garland" <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote in message
news:n2rlic$64d$1...@dont-email.me...

Tad unlikely that they would all end up with roughly the
same result standards wise if that was happening much.

> Maybe it's not like that in Australia (I don't particularly
> believe that, but don't know), but there are a lot of
> places in North America where that's how it is.

Tad unlikely that they would all end up with roughly the
same result standards wise if that was happening much.

[Osmium]

"Tad unlikely" is an odd synonym for "Bullshit". Are you giving up on brand
recognition?