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Peter Flass
Oct 9, 2023, 2:23:15 PM10/9/23
to
Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
--
Pete
has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
--
Pete
Sn!pe
Oct 9, 2023, 2:38:13 PM10/9/23
to
--
^Ï^. Sn!pe <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>
My pet rock Gordon just is.
Peter Flass
Oct 9, 2023, 3:00:06 PM10/9/23
to
Sn!pe <snip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>> Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
>> seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
>> terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
>> are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
>>
>
> IBM Selectric, then KSR33; I used to fix those mofos.
>
Carl Claunch’s Blog http://rescue1130.blogspot.com has had a few posts
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>> Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
>> seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
>> terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
>> are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
>>
>
> IBM Selectric, then KSR33; I used to fix those mofos.
>
about his attempts to fix an IBM 1053 (same mechanism as a selectric) used
as an 1130 console. I never realized there was so much to those things.
--
Pete
Dennis Boone
Oct 9, 2023, 3:29:31 PM10/9/23
to
> Now even terminal emulators are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
$deity forbid they actually have to _see_ a keyboard, it might make
them clinically depressed. Then they'd have to get an emotional
support shark, or something.
De
(Ok, yes, some snark here.)
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Oct 9, 2023, 3:30:12 PM10/9/23
to
On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency
Charlie Gibbs
Oct 9, 2023, 3:33:16 PM10/9/23
to
On 2023-10-09, Sn!pe <snip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>> Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
>> seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
>> terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
>> are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
>
> IBM Selectric, then KSR33; I used to fix those mofos.
The university had 2741s and TTYs (mostly model 33, but the occasional
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>> Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
>> seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
>> terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
>> are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
>
> IBM Selectric, then KSR33; I used to fix those mofos.
35 and even a few 37s). They did have a few 2260s (wow, 12x80 screen!).
Once out in the real world, it was all cards. No terminals of any sort
for several years, then Univac's Uniscope 100 and 200 terminals (block
mode, synchronous, polled protocol - programming was a nightmare).
Our foray into terminal emulators consisted of an ISA-bus card with
a synchronous port, plus software that emulated the Uniscope on an
MS-DOS box. I envied those DEC shops and their character-mode
asynchronous terminals - they were so simple by comparison.
I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
(and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
game at all was a strong incentive.
As for terminal emulators, I always have at least one open,
on both Linux and Windows boxes. Call me strange, but I find
that most of the time a command-line interface is so much simpler
than that gooey stuff, and I can do things in a dozen keystrokes
while J. Random Luser spends five minutes pointing and clicking
and dragging and dropp... oh damn, where did I drop that thing...
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They offer a huge range of
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | world-class vulnerabilities
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | that only Microsoft can provide.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- druck <ne...@druck.org.uk>
Sn!pe
Oct 9, 2023, 4:01:31 PM10/9/23
to
keyboard spring through its freaky hardware logic effects. Dang
mechanical faults, I should have known b*etter.
Sn!pe
Oct 9, 2023, 4:07:05 PM10/9/23
to
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
[...]
> I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
> (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> game at all was a strong incentive.
[...]
Oh my, Zork* was ~difficult~. I still try to solve it now when I'm
really bored. It is very dark here, you may be eaten by a grue...
[...]
> I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
> (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> game at all was a strong incentive.
Oh my, Zork* was ~difficult~. I still try to solve it now when I'm
really bored. It is very dark here, you may be eaten by a grue...
Peter Flass
Oct 9, 2023, 5:42:09 PM10/9/23
to
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>
> Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
> tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.
>
yes
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>
> Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
> tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.
>
--
Pete
Peter Flass
Oct 9, 2023, 5:42:10 PM10/9/23
to
and then maybe another for a specific task. I use a GUI editor (nedit) but
start instances of it it as needed as as separate tasks from the
appropriate command-line.
--
Pete
D.J.
Oct 9, 2023, 6:01:39 PM10/9/23
to
On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
terminals we used with a DEC VAX 11/730 and wrote our homework in VAX
PASCAL. About 1987-89.
I used an amber terminal somewhere back then, but I don't remember
where. I think it was an Ampex. No idea on the model number.
--
Jim
wrote:
>Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
The terminals I used at university were Dec VT-102 vacuum tube/valve
>has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
terminals we used with a DEC VAX 11/730 and wrote our homework in VAX
PASCAL. About 1987-89.
I used an amber terminal somewhere back then, but I don't remember
where. I think it was an Ampex. No idea on the model number.
--
Jim
John
Oct 9, 2023, 7:13:27 PM10/9/23
to
with keyboards of all sorts. Mechanical keyboards, custom keyboard
layouts, individually lubricating key switches... The Kids These Days
are nuts for keyboards. Hell, it's a real pain to try and source an
*actual* video terminal with the keyboard still attached, because old
keyboards (run through an adapter) are a hot commodity these days!
Uh, err, I mean, damn those snowflake millennials, with their purple
hair and their rap music, and their dastardly invention of the Graphical
User Interface!
john
Charlie Gibbs
Oct 9, 2023, 7:29:55 PM10/9/23
to
One was green, the other amber. Remember the term "ergonomics"?
Peter Flass
Oct 9, 2023, 7:38:43 PM10/9/23
to
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-10-09, D.J <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>>
>> The terminals I used at university were Dec VT-102 vacuum tube/valve
>> terminals we used with a DEC VAX 11/730 and wrote our homework in VAX
>> PASCAL. About 1987-89.
>>
>> I used an amber terminal somewhere back then, but I don't remember
>> where. I think it was an Ampex. No idea on the model number.
>
> In one place I worked, we had two Qume QVT-102 terminals.
> One was green, the other amber. Remember the term "ergonomics"?
>
We had amber VT-220s on our /730. Great terminals.
> On 2023-10-09, D.J <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>>
>> The terminals I used at university were Dec VT-102 vacuum tube/valve
>> terminals we used with a DEC VAX 11/730 and wrote our homework in VAX
>> PASCAL. About 1987-89.
>>
>> I used an amber terminal somewhere back then, but I don't remember
>> where. I think it was an Ampex. No idea on the model number.
>
> In one place I worked, we had two Qume QVT-102 terminals.
> One was green, the other amber. Remember the term "ergonomics"?
>
--
Pete
Scott Lurndal
Oct 9, 2023, 8:05:41 PM10/9/23
to
ADM-3A (1200 baud), various VT100 clones (9600 baud), Burroughs block mode
stations such as TD700, TD830, ET1100, MT983 and T27. I still have a couple
of real T27's I use with my burroughs emulator. NCD X terminals (NCD16
monochrome and NCD17c color) until PC-based linux systems replaced all my
unix boxes.
Joe Pfeiffer
Oct 9, 2023, 8:29:31 PM10/9/23
to
We had Heath/Zenith Z19 terminals where I went to grad school. Those
were great -- they just plain worked, and were bulletproof. I've
actually got an H19 tucked away now.
For many years starting in about 1980 I had a TEC as my home
terminal. Another outstanding design; I wish I still had it. I think
it was a Model 70 as shown in this ad, but I'm not sure.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224103237620
Once I had a workstation with a serial port and kermit, there really
wasn't any reason to have a physical terminal any more...
were great -- they just plain worked, and were bulletproof. I've
actually got an H19 tucked away now.
For many years starting in about 1980 I had a TEC as my home
terminal. Another outstanding design; I wish I still had it. I think
it was a Model 70 as shown in this ad, but I'm not sure.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224103237620
Once I had a workstation with a serial port and kermit, there really
wasn't any reason to have a physical terminal any more...
Kerr-Mudd, John
Oct 10, 2023, 4:04:34 AM10/10/23
to
On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 20:05:16 +0100
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
> > has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
> > punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>
> Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
> tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.
>
Fax machines? modems?
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
> > has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
> > punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>
> Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
> tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.
>
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Kerr-Mudd, John
Oct 10, 2023, 4:07:17 AM10/10/23
to
On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 21:07:01 +0100
snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
> > (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> > Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> > game at all was a strong incentive.
>
Attack Bear
snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
> > (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> > Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> > game at all was a strong incentive.
>
> [...]
>
> Oh my, Zork* was ~difficult~. I still try to solve it now when I'm
> really bored. It is very dark here, you may be eaten by a grue...
>
working fine, I just couldn't get to the next location.
Kerr-Mudd, John
Oct 10, 2023, 4:08:41 AM10/10/23
to
D.J.
Oct 10, 2023, 9:36:27 AM10/10/23
to
On Mon, 09 Oct 2023 23:29:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>On 2023-10-09, D.J <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>>
>> The terminals I used at university were Dec VT-102 vacuum tube/valve
>> terminals we used with a DEC VAX 11/730 and wrote our homework in VAX
>> PASCAL. About 1987-89.
>>
>> I used an amber terminal somewhere back then, but I don't remember
>> where. I think it was an Ampex. No idea on the model number.
>
>In one place I worked, we had two Qume QVT-102 terminals.
>One was green, the other amber. Remember the term "ergonomics"?
Yeah, the split keyboards. One half for each hand. My hands refused to
<cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>On 2023-10-09, D.J <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>>
>> The terminals I used at university were Dec VT-102 vacuum tube/valve
>> terminals we used with a DEC VAX 11/730 and wrote our homework in VAX
>> PASCAL. About 1987-89.
>>
>> I used an amber terminal somewhere back then, but I don't remember
>> where. I think it was an Ampex. No idea on the model number.
>
>In one place I worked, we had two Qume QVT-102 terminals.
>One was green, the other amber. Remember the term "ergonomics"?
use them.
--
Jim
sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us
Oct 10, 2023, 11:45:11 AM10/10/23
to
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
> tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.
BD-R is still cheaper than anything else for archival purposes...or is it?
> tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.
I was about to assert that it was. The last spindle of 50 BD-Rs I bought
cost me $32.46, which works out to about 2.6¢/GB. The cheapest 8-TB
external hard drive up on Amazon right now (https://amzn.to/45ptmwj) is
about $160, or 2.0¢/GB.
Then again, I have some 12-13 TB to back up and multiple schemes in place to
handle it (BD-R for things like media files, cloud storage (via Duplicity)
for things like documents). This way, everything is backed up off-site.
Doing the same with hard drives would require either a second server offsite
to receive copies via rsync or hauling drives back and forth.
--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Kerr-Mudd, John
Oct 10, 2023, 11:53:54 AM10/10/23
to
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 15:45:08 GMT
sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> > Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
> > tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.
>
> BD-R is still cheaper than anything else for archival purposes...or is it?
>
> I was about to assert that it was. The last spindle of 50 BD-Rs I bought
> cost me $32.46, which works out to about 2.6¢/GB. The cheapest 8-TB
> external hard drive up on Amazon right now (https://amzn.to/45ptmwj) is
> about $160, or 2.0¢/GB.
>
> Then again, I have some 12-13 TB to back up and multiple schemes in place to
> handle it (BD-R for things like media files, cloud storage (via Duplicity)
> for things like documents). This way, everything is backed up off-site.
> Doing the same with hard drives would require either a second server offsite
> to receive copies via rsync or hauling drives back and forth.
>
I'd imagine I have <2M of text that I (and probably no-one else) cares
sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> > Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
> > tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.
>
> BD-R is still cheaper than anything else for archival purposes...or is it?
>
> I was about to assert that it was. The last spindle of 50 BD-Rs I bought
> cost me $32.46, which works out to about 2.6¢/GB. The cheapest 8-TB
> external hard drive up on Amazon right now (https://amzn.to/45ptmwj) is
> about $160, or 2.0¢/GB.
>
> Then again, I have some 12-13 TB to back up and multiple schemes in place to
> handle it (BD-R for things like media files, cloud storage (via Duplicity)
> for things like documents). This way, everything is backed up off-site.
> Doing the same with hard drives would require either a second server offsite
> to receive copies via rsync or hauling drives back and forth.
>
about; a number of photos from wayback when 1M was a stupidly large number
of pixels per photo (but again only immediate family might take an
interest in) - say 100M, and erm no pirate DVDs or anything else.
I have a 500M hard drive from yesteryear that probably has my valuable
stuff + various install images of outofdate software etc. Still space
galore on it. I did used to backup religiously as a developer, but no-one
cares now about DOS or even 32bit apps. Why worry?
sarr.b...@alum.dartmouth.org
Oct 10, 2023, 1:44:50 PM10/10/23
to
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
: Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
At the risk of starting a definition war, terminals survive but it's now
spelled "thin client."
: Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
spelled "thin client."
Charlie Gibbs
Oct 10, 2023, 3:25:41 PM10/10/23
to
On 2023-10-10, sarr.b...@alum.dartmouth.org
Gotta get me one of those T-shirts...
<sarr.b...@alum.dartmouth.org> wrote:
> At the risk of starting a definition war, terminals survive
> but it's now spelled "thin client."
"There is no cloud. It's just someone else's computer."
> At the risk of starting a definition war, terminals survive
> but it's now spelled "thin client."
Gotta get me one of those T-shirts...
Charlie Gibbs
Oct 10, 2023, 3:25:41 PM10/10/23
to
On 2023-10-10, Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
> We had Heath/Zenith Z19 terminals where I went to grad school. Those
> were great -- they just plain worked, and were bulletproof. I've
> actually got an H19 tucked away now.
So do I. Now all I have to do is restore the boot ROM in the
> We had Heath/Zenith Z19 terminals where I went to grad school. Those
> were great -- they just plain worked, and were bulletproof. I've
> actually got an H19 tucked away now.
IMSAI that it was hooked to, and I'll have a working CP/M machine,
complete with 8-inch floppies.
Charlie Gibbs
Oct 10, 2023, 3:25:42 PM10/10/23
to
Charlie Gibbs
Oct 10, 2023, 3:25:43 PM10/10/23
to
On 2023-10-10, Kerr-Mudd, John <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 21:07:01 +0100
> snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
>>> (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
>>> Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
>>> game at all was a strong incentive.
>
> Attack Bear
With your bare hands? Against *HIS* bear hands?
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 21:07:01 +0100
> snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
>>> (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
>>> Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
>>> game at all was a strong incentive.
>
> Attack Bear
Charlie Gibbs
Oct 10, 2023, 3:25:44 PM10/10/23
to
On 2023-10-10,
full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
-- Andrew S. Tanenbaum
sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us <sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
> Then again, I have some 12-13 TB to back up and multiple schemes in place to
> handle it (BD-R for things like media files, cloud storage (via Duplicity)
> for things like documents). This way, everything is backed up off-site.
> Doing the same with hard drives would require either a second server offsite
> to receive copies via rsync or hauling drives back and forth.
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon
> Then again, I have some 12-13 TB to back up and multiple schemes in place to
> handle it (BD-R for things like media files, cloud storage (via Duplicity)
> for things like documents). This way, everything is backed up off-site.
> Doing the same with hard drives would require either a second server offsite
> to receive copies via rsync or hauling drives back and forth.
full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
-- Andrew S. Tanenbaum
Charlie Gibbs
Oct 10, 2023, 3:25:44 PM10/10/23
to
and I was taught to hit the 6 with my right index finger. Grrrr...
rdh
Oct 10, 2023, 4:09:04 PM10/10/23
to
If pure cost per GB is your metric, then nothing beats tape. LTO Tape is
available on Newegg for less than 3/10 of a penny per GB.
available on Newegg for less than 3/10 of a penny per GB.
Vir Campestris
Oct 10, 2023, 4:25:46 PM10/10/23
to
On 10/10/2023 21:09, rdh wrote:
> If pure cost per GB is your metric, then nothing beats tape. LTO Tape is
> available on Newegg for less than 3/10 of a penny per GB.
Is that a new penny or a pre-decimalisation penny?
> If pure cost per GB is your metric, then nothing beats tape. LTO Tape is
> available on Newegg for less than 3/10 of a penny per GB.
(or a US cent?)
Andy
Scott Lurndal
Oct 10, 2023, 4:26:59 PM10/10/23
to
rdh <r...@tilde.institute> writes:
>If pure cost per GB is your metric, then nothing beats tape. LTO Tape is
>available on Newegg for less than 3/10 of a penny per GB.
However, an LTO tape drive costs USD4,000 and upwards.
>If pure cost per GB is your metric, then nothing beats tape. LTO Tape is
>available on Newegg for less than 3/10 of a penny per GB.
That will buy four or five hundred NVME USB-C 1TB solid state drives.
Vir Campestris
Oct 10, 2023, 4:38:19 PM10/10/23
to
On 10/10/2023 21:09, rdh wrote:
> If pure cost per GB is your metric, then nothing beats tape. LTO Tape is
> available on Newegg for less than 3/10 of a penny per GB.
> available on Newegg for less than 3/10 of a penny per GB.
Bob Eager
Oct 10, 2023, 4:51:57 PM10/10/23
to
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 15:09:02 -0500, rdh wrote:
> If pure cost per GB is your metric, then nothing beats tape. LTO Tape is
> available on Newegg for less than 3/10 of a penny per GB.
Try Amazon S3 Deep Archive. OK, retrievla time in hours, but...
> If pure cost per GB is your metric, then nothing beats tape. LTO Tape is
> available on Newegg for less than 3/10 of a penny per GB.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us
Oct 10, 2023, 5:20:15 PM10/10/23
to
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-10-10,
> sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us <sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
>
>> Then again, I have some 12-13 TB to back up and multiple schemes in place to
>> handle it (BD-R for things like media files, cloud storage (via Duplicity)
>> for things like documents). This way, everything is backed up off-site.
>> Doing the same with hard drives would require either a second server offsite
>> to receive copies via rsync or hauling drives back and forth.
>
> Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon
> full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
> -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum
True...and it's definitely faster to bring a stack of BD-Rs into the office
> On 2023-10-10,
> sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us <sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
>
>> Then again, I have some 12-13 TB to back up and multiple schemes in place to
>> handle it (BD-R for things like media files, cloud storage (via Duplicity)
>> for things like documents). This way, everything is backed up off-site.
>> Doing the same with hard drives would require either a second server offsite
>> to receive copies via rsync or hauling drives back and forth.
>
> Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon
> full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
> -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum
with me than to transfer changed files to a backup server. I suppose hard
drives being moved would put up even higher bandwidth numbers. :)
Lynn Wheeler
Oct 10, 2023, 9:36:03 PM10/10/23
to
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> The university had 2741s and TTYs (mostly model 33, but the occasional
> 35 and even a few 37s). They did have a few 2260s (wow, 12x80 screen!).
>
> Once out in the real world, it was all cards. No terminals of any sort
> for several years, then Univac's Uniscope 100 and 200 terminals (block
> mode, synchronous, polled protocol - programming was a nightmare).
> Our foray into terminal emulators consisted of an ISA-bus card with
> a synchronous port, plus software that emulated the Uniscope on an
> MS-DOS box. I envied those DEC shops and their character-mode
> asynchronous terminals - they were so simple by comparison.
> on both Linux and Windows boxes. Call me strange, but I find
> that most of the time a command-line interface is so much simpler
> than that gooey stuff, and I can do things in a dozen keystrokes
> while J. Random Luser spends five minutes pointing and clicking
> and dragging and dropp... oh damn, where did I drop that thing...
I took two credit hr intro to fortran/computers and end of semester was
hired to rewrite 1401 MPIO for 360/30. Univ had been sold 360/67 for
tss/360 to replace 709 (tape->tape) / 1401 (unit record front end, card
reader->tape, tape->printer/punch). Pending arrival 360/67, the 1401 was
replaced with 360/30 which had 1401 emulation ... and could run MPIO,
360/30 was to gain 360 experience ... so my job to re-implement MPIO.
I was given a bunch of hardware & software manuals and got to design &
implement my own monitor, device drivers, interrupt handlers, error
recovery, storage management, etc. The univ. shutdown datacenter on
weekends and I would have the place dedicated (although monday morning
classes were a little hard with 48hrs w/o sleep). Within a few weeks, I
had 2000 card assembler program. Within a year of taking intro class,
the 360/67 had arrived and I was hired fulltime responsible for os/360
(tss/360 never came to production fruition, so ran as 360/65).
The univ. had some number of 2741s (originally for tss/360) ... but then
got some tty/ascii terminals (tty/ascii port scanner for the IBM
telecommunication controller arrived in Heathkit box).
Then some people from science center came out to install (virtual
machine) CP67 ... which was pretty much me playing with it on my weekend
dedicated time. It had 1052&2741 terminal support and some tricks to
dynamically recognize line terminal type and switch the line port
scanner type. I added TTY/ASCCI support (including being able to
dynamically switch terminal scanner type). I then wanted to have single
dail-up number for all terminal types (hunt group):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_hunting
I could dynamically switch port scanner terminal type for each line but
IBM had taken short-cut and hardwired the line speed (so didn't quite
work). Univ. starts a project to implement clone controller; build a
channel interface board for Interdata/3 programmed to emulate IBM
terminal control unit, with the addition it can do dynamic line
speed. It was later enhanced to be a Interdata/4 for channel interface
and cluster of Interdata/3s for port interfaces; Interdata and later
Perkin-Elmer sell it as IBM clone controller) ... four of us get written
up as responsible for (some part of) clone controller business
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdata
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkin-Elmer
other trivia: 360 was originally suppose to be ASCII machine ... but
ASCII unit record gear wasn't ready, so they were going to (temporarily)
extend BCD (refs gone 404, but lives on at wayback machine)
https://web.archive.org/web/20180513184025/http://www.bobbemer.com/P-BIT.HTM
other
https://web.archive.org/web/20180513184025/http://www.bobbemer.com/FATHEROF.HTM
https://web.archive.org/web/20180513184025/http://www.bobbemer.com/HISTORY.HTM
https://web.archive.org/web/20180513184025/http://www.bobbemer.com/ASCII.HTM
after graduating and joining IBM at cambridge science center (i got 2741
at home) ... and then transferring to san jose research (home 2741
replaced 1st with cdi miniterm, then a IBM 3101 glass tty) ... I also
got to wander around lots of IBM & customer datacenters in silicon
valley ... including tymshare
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tymshare
provided their (vm370) CMS-based online computer conferencing system,
"free" to (mainframe user group) SHARE in Aug1976 as VMSHARE
... archives here
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare
I had cut a deal with TYMSHARE to get a monthly tape dump of all VMSHARE
files for internal network&systems ... biggest problem was lawyers
concerned about internal employees being directly exposed to
(unfiltered) customer information. (after M/D bought TYMSHARE in 84,
vmshare was moved to different platform)
One TYMSHARE visit, they demo'ed ADVENTURE somebody had found on
Stanford AI PDP10 and ported to CMS and I got a copy ... which I made
available inside IBM (people that got all points, I would send a copy of
source).
TYMSHARE also told story that executive learning that customers were
playing games, directed that TYMSHARE was for business and all games had
to be removed. He changed his mind after being told that game playing
had grown to something like 30% of revenue.
trivia: I had ordered IBM/PC on announce through employee plan (with
employee discount). However, by the time it arrived, IBM/PC street price
had dropped below the employee discount. IBM provided 2400 baud Hayes
compatible modem that supported hardware encryption (for the home
terminal emuplation progam). Terminal emulator did software compression
and both sides kept cache of couple thousand recently transmitted
characters ... and could send index into string cache (rather than
compressed string).
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
> The university had 2741s and TTYs (mostly model 33, but the occasional
> 35 and even a few 37s). They did have a few 2260s (wow, 12x80 screen!).
>
> Once out in the real world, it was all cards. No terminals of any sort
> for several years, then Univac's Uniscope 100 and 200 terminals (block
> mode, synchronous, polled protocol - programming was a nightmare).
> Our foray into terminal emulators consisted of an ISA-bus card with
> a synchronous port, plus software that emulated the Uniscope on an
> MS-DOS box. I envied those DEC shops and their character-mode
> asynchronous terminals - they were so simple by comparison.
> I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
> (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> game at all was a strong incentive.
>
> As for terminal emulators, I always have at least one open,
> (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> game at all was a strong incentive.
>
> on both Linux and Windows boxes. Call me strange, but I find
> that most of the time a command-line interface is so much simpler
> than that gooey stuff, and I can do things in a dozen keystrokes
> while J. Random Luser spends five minutes pointing and clicking
> and dragging and dropp... oh damn, where did I drop that thing...
I took two credit hr intro to fortran/computers and end of semester was
hired to rewrite 1401 MPIO for 360/30. Univ had been sold 360/67 for
tss/360 to replace 709 (tape->tape) / 1401 (unit record front end, card
reader->tape, tape->printer/punch). Pending arrival 360/67, the 1401 was
replaced with 360/30 which had 1401 emulation ... and could run MPIO,
360/30 was to gain 360 experience ... so my job to re-implement MPIO.
I was given a bunch of hardware & software manuals and got to design &
implement my own monitor, device drivers, interrupt handlers, error
recovery, storage management, etc. The univ. shutdown datacenter on
weekends and I would have the place dedicated (although monday morning
classes were a little hard with 48hrs w/o sleep). Within a few weeks, I
had 2000 card assembler program. Within a year of taking intro class,
the 360/67 had arrived and I was hired fulltime responsible for os/360
(tss/360 never came to production fruition, so ran as 360/65).
The univ. had some number of 2741s (originally for tss/360) ... but then
got some tty/ascii terminals (tty/ascii port scanner for the IBM
telecommunication controller arrived in Heathkit box).
Then some people from science center came out to install (virtual
machine) CP67 ... which was pretty much me playing with it on my weekend
dedicated time. It had 1052&2741 terminal support and some tricks to
dynamically recognize line terminal type and switch the line port
scanner type. I added TTY/ASCCI support (including being able to
dynamically switch terminal scanner type). I then wanted to have single
dail-up number for all terminal types (hunt group):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_hunting
I could dynamically switch port scanner terminal type for each line but
IBM had taken short-cut and hardwired the line speed (so didn't quite
work). Univ. starts a project to implement clone controller; build a
channel interface board for Interdata/3 programmed to emulate IBM
terminal control unit, with the addition it can do dynamic line
speed. It was later enhanced to be a Interdata/4 for channel interface
and cluster of Interdata/3s for port interfaces; Interdata and later
Perkin-Elmer sell it as IBM clone controller) ... four of us get written
up as responsible for (some part of) clone controller business
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdata
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkin-Elmer
other trivia: 360 was originally suppose to be ASCII machine ... but
ASCII unit record gear wasn't ready, so they were going to (temporarily)
extend BCD (refs gone 404, but lives on at wayback machine)
https://web.archive.org/web/20180513184025/http://www.bobbemer.com/P-BIT.HTM
other
https://web.archive.org/web/20180513184025/http://www.bobbemer.com/FATHEROF.HTM
https://web.archive.org/web/20180513184025/http://www.bobbemer.com/HISTORY.HTM
https://web.archive.org/web/20180513184025/http://www.bobbemer.com/ASCII.HTM
after graduating and joining IBM at cambridge science center (i got 2741
at home) ... and then transferring to san jose research (home 2741
replaced 1st with cdi miniterm, then a IBM 3101 glass tty) ... I also
got to wander around lots of IBM & customer datacenters in silicon
valley ... including tymshare
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tymshare
provided their (vm370) CMS-based online computer conferencing system,
"free" to (mainframe user group) SHARE in Aug1976 as VMSHARE
... archives here
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare
I had cut a deal with TYMSHARE to get a monthly tape dump of all VMSHARE
files for internal network&systems ... biggest problem was lawyers
concerned about internal employees being directly exposed to
(unfiltered) customer information. (after M/D bought TYMSHARE in 84,
vmshare was moved to different platform)
One TYMSHARE visit, they demo'ed ADVENTURE somebody had found on
Stanford AI PDP10 and ported to CMS and I got a copy ... which I made
available inside IBM (people that got all points, I would send a copy of
source).
TYMSHARE also told story that executive learning that customers were
playing games, directed that TYMSHARE was for business and all games had
to be removed. He changed his mind after being told that game playing
had grown to something like 30% of revenue.
trivia: I had ordered IBM/PC on announce through employee plan (with
employee discount). However, by the time it arrived, IBM/PC street price
had dropped below the employee discount. IBM provided 2400 baud Hayes
compatible modem that supported hardware encryption (for the home
terminal emuplation progam). Terminal emulator did software compression
and both sides kept cache of couple thousand recently transmitted
characters ... and could send index into string cache (rather than
compressed string).
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Kerr-Mudd, John
Oct 11, 2023, 4:02:29 AM10/11/23
to
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:25:40 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-10-10, Kerr-Mudd, John <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 21:07:01 +0100
> > snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:
> >
> >> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >>> I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
> >>> (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> >>> Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> >>> game at all was a strong incentive.
> >
> > Attack Bear
>
> With your bare hands? Against *HIS* bear hands?
>
Glad someone remembers!
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-10-10, Kerr-Mudd, John <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 21:07:01 +0100
> > snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:
> >
> >> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >>> I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
> >>> (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> >>> Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> >>> game at all was a strong incentive.
> >
> > Attack Bear
>
> With your bare hands? Against *HIS* bear hands?
>
Throw Axe At Troll
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Oct 11, 2023, 6:00:09 AM10/11/23
to
> Kill dragon
What with ? Your bare hands ?
> Yes
All in uppercase when I first met it.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency
Kerr-Mudd, John
Oct 11, 2023, 11:42:07 AM10/11/23
to
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:50:11 +0100
IIRC:
Snake - fail
Dragon - works
Bear - as reported above
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 09:01:58 +0100
> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:25:40 GMT
> > Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > > >>> I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
> > > >>> (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> > > >>> Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> > > >>> game at all was a strong incentive.
> > > >
> > > > Attack Bear
> > >
> > > With your bare hands? Against *HIS* bear hands?
> > >
> > Glad someone remembers!
>
> The original in Adventure was
>
> > Kill dragon
> What with ? Your bare hands ?
> > Yes
>
> All in uppercase when I first met it.
>
Yup that's earlier:
> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:25:40 GMT
> > Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > > >>> I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
> > > >>> (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> > > >>> Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> > > >>> game at all was a strong incentive.
> > > >
> > > > Attack Bear
> > >
> > > With your bare hands? Against *HIS* bear hands?
> > >
> > Glad someone remembers!
>
> The original in Adventure was
>
> > Kill dragon
> What with ? Your bare hands ?
> > Yes
>
> All in uppercase when I first met it.
>
IIRC:
Snake - fail
Dragon - works
Bear - as reported above
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Oct 11, 2023, 1:00:07 PM10/11/23
to
> Dragon - works
Yep as above.
> Bear - as reported above
the bear then take it and finally throw it so that it attacks the troll.
Is it in Zork you kill the bear with bare hands ?
Lars Poulsen
Oct 11, 2023, 2:47:33 PM10/11/23
to
On 10/9/2023 12:00 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
> Carl Claunch’s Blog http://rescue1130.blogspot.com has had a few posts
> about his attempts to fix an IBM 1053 (same mechanism as a selectric) used
> as an 1130 console. I never realized there was so much to those things.
A few years ago, I bought a Selectric typewriter at a garage sale. It
sat in my garage for a couple of years, until my wife made me throw it
out. Having read these blog posts, I see that I would never have been
able to get it working.
> Carl Claunch’s Blog http://rescue1130.blogspot.com has had a few posts
> about his attempts to fix an IBM 1053 (same mechanism as a selectric) used
> as an 1130 console. I never realized there was so much to those things.
A few years ago, I bought a Selectric typewriter at a garage sale. It
sat in my garage for a couple of years, until my wife made me throw it
out. Having read these blog posts, I see that I would never have been
able to get it working.
Johnny Billquist
Oct 12, 2023, 7:32:01 AM10/12/23
to
On 2023-10-11 18:36, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 16:42:07 +0100
> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:50:11 +0100
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The original in Adventure was
>>>
>>>> Kill dragon
>>> What with ? Your bare hands ?
>>>> Yes
>>>
>>> All in uppercase when I first met it.
>>>
>> Yup that's earlier:
>>
>> IIRC:
>>
>> Snake - fail
>
> In Adventure the snake is dealt with by freeing the bird.
Spoiler alert. :-D
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 16:42:07 +0100
> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:50:11 +0100
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The original in Adventure was
>>>
>>>> Kill dragon
>>> What with ? Your bare hands ?
>>>> Yes
>>>
>>> All in uppercase when I first met it.
>>>
>> Yup that's earlier:
>>
>> IIRC:
>>
>> Snake - fail
>
> In Adventure the snake is dealt with by freeing the bird.
>> Dragon - works
>
> Yep as above.
>> Bear - as reported above
>
> Not in the classic Crowther/Woods Adventure - there you have to feed
> the bear then take it and finally throw it so that it attacks the troll.
>
> Is it in Zork you kill the bear with bare hands ?
But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more. You
should feed it, yes.
(Another spoiler alert...)
Johnny
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Oct 12, 2023, 8:30:07 AM10/12/23
to
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours playing
Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper with hand
drawn maps.
Johnny Billquist
Oct 12, 2023, 10:17:46 AM10/12/23
to
On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>
> Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours playing
> it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper with hand
> drawn maps.
I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>
> Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours playing
> it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper with hand
> drawn maps.
database). Now, I wouldn't swear that maybe the original, original
Adventure didn't have the comment, but then again, I think the original,
original Adventure didn't have the bear, snake or dragon either.
Johnny
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Oct 12, 2023, 11:30:07 AM10/12/23
to
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> >
> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
> >
> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
> > with hand drawn maps.
>
> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
That's the version I first met on the 370.
> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> >
> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
> >
> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
> > with hand drawn maps.
>
> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
Scott Lurndal
Oct 12, 2023, 1:02:19 PM10/12/23
to
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> >
>> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>> >
>> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>> > with hand drawn maps.
>>
>> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>
> That's the version I first met on the 370.
I have two versions, one in fortran dated march 11, 1977. No bear.
>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> >
>> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>> >
>> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>> > with hand drawn maps.
>>
>> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>
> That's the version I first met on the 370.
The other is in C, called open-adventure, and does have a bear.
$ grep -i bear /work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/*.c
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: if (HERE(BEAR) && game.prop[BEAR] == UNTAMED_BEAR) {
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: obj = BEAR;
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: if (obj == BEAR) {
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: switch (game.prop[BEAR]) {
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: case UNTAMED_BEAR:
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: rspeak(BEAR_HANDS);
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: case SITTING_BEAR:
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: rspeak(BEAR_CONFUSED);
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: case CONTENTED_BEAR:
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: rspeak(BEAR_CONFUSED);
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: case BEAR_DEAD:
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: case BEAR:
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: rspeak( game.prop[BEAR] == SITTING_BEAR ? BEAR_CHAINED : YOU_JOKING);
/work/opensource/adventure/open-adventure/actions.c: rspeak( game.prop[BEAR] != UNTAMED_BEAR ? STILL_LOCKED : YOU_JOKING);
...
D.J.
Oct 12, 2023, 2:06:44 PM10/12/23
to
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:13:56 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> >
>> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>> >
>> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>> > with hand drawn maps.
>>
>> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>
> That's the version I first met on the 370.
The one I had on my Amiga A1000, named ADVEN, had none of the animals
<ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> >
>> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>> >
>> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>> > with hand drawn maps.
>>
>> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>
> That's the version I first met on the 370.
mentioned. Did have a grue in the house's chimney. The text, I had a
binary reader program, that it was converted from fortran source. I
forget the max score and the machine they said it had been converted
from. The score was probably 350. I think it came on a Fred Fish disk.
--
Jim
Kerr-Mudd, John
Oct 12, 2023, 3:08:22 PM10/12/23
to
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:15:45 +0100
widow, as the surname was memorable) that he's no longer around to
ask for the maps back - but others have done better ones.
He told me that he got the Last Point only by examining the source.
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
> > But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
> > is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>
> Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours playing
> it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper with hand
> drawn maps.
>
I gave mine to a works colleague; I found out a few years back (from his
> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
> > But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
> > is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>
> Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours playing
> it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper with hand
> drawn maps.
>
widow, as the surname was memorable) that he's no longer around to
ask for the maps back - but others have done better ones.
He told me that he got the Last Point only by examining the source.
Kerr-Mudd, John
Oct 12, 2023, 3:11:39 PM10/12/23
to
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:06:40 -0500
D.J. <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:13:56 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> >On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
> >Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
> >> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
> >> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
> >> >
> >> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
> >> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
> >> > with hand drawn maps.
> >>
> >> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
> >
> > That's the version I first met on the 370.
>
> The one I had on my Amiga A1000, named ADVEN, had none of the animals
> mentioned. Did have a grue in the house's chimney. The text, I had a
The 350 adventure (and possibly many others) had no chimney; it was just a
D.J. <chuckt...@gmnol.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:13:56 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> >On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
> >Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
> >> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
> >> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
> >> >
> >> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
> >> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
> >> > with hand drawn maps.
> >>
> >> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
> >
> > That's the version I first met on the 370.
>
> The one I had on my Amiga A1000, named ADVEN, had none of the animals
> mentioned. Did have a grue in the house's chimney. The text, I had a
wellhouse with a spring.
I feel sure 'grues' were a feature of Zork.
> binary reader program, that it was converted from fortran source. I
> forget the max score and the machine they said it had been converted
> from. The score was probably 350. I think it came on a Fred Fish disk.
>
> --
> Jim
Kerr-Mudd, John
Oct 12, 2023, 3:22:23 PM10/12/23
to
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 17:02:16 GMT
sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
> >On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
> >Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
> >> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
> >> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
> >> >
> >> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
> >> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
> >> > with hand drawn maps.
> >>
> >> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
> >
> > That's the version I first met on the 370.
>
> I have two versions, one in fortran dated march 11, 1977. No bear.
>
Well (SWIDT?)
sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
> >On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
> >Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
> >> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
> >> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
> >> >
> >> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
> >> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
> >> > with hand drawn maps.
> >>
> >> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
> >
> > That's the version I first met on the 370.
>
> I have two versions, one in fortran dated march 11, 1977. No bear.
>
https://mipmip.org/IFrescue/ajf/Universal350.html
says it's "universal" for the 350 pt version. You must be very fortunate to
have earlier code.
Must be Crowthers (pre Woods) 1975 version then.
https://mipmip.org/IFrescue/ajf/#CROW0000
[snipped C BEAR code]
Scott Lurndal
Oct 12, 2023, 5:20:26 PM10/12/23
to
"Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> writes:
>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 17:02:16 GMT
>sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>> >On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>> >Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> >> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>> >> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>> >> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>> >> >
>> >> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>> >> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>> >> > with hand drawn maps.
>> >>
>> >> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>> >
>> > That's the version I first met on the 370.
>>
>> I have two versions, one in fortran dated march 11, 1977. No bear.
>>
>
>Well (SWIDT?)
Here's one of the march 77 versions:
>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 17:02:16 GMT
>sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>> >On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>> >Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> >> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>> >> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>> >> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>> >> >
>> >> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>> >> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>> >> > with hand drawn maps.
>> >>
>> >> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>> >
>> > That's the version I first met on the 370.
>>
>> I have two versions, one in fortran dated march 11, 1977. No bear.
>>
>
>Well (SWIDT?)
https://github.com/osgcc/colossal-cave-adventure/tree/master
Scott Lurndal
Oct 12, 2023, 5:22:19 PM10/12/23
to
"Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> writes:
>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 17:02:16 GMT
>sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>> >On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>> >Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> >> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>> >> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>> >> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>> >> >
>> >> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>> >> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>> >> > with hand drawn maps.
>> >>
>> >> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>> >
>> > That's the version I first met on the 370.
>>
>> I have two versions, one in fortran dated march 11, 1977. No bear.
>>
>
And the C version is here:
>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 17:02:16 GMT
>sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>> >On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>> >Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> >> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>> >> > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>> >> >> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>> >> >
>> >> > Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>> >> > playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>> >> > with hand drawn maps.
>> >>
>> >> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>> >
>> > That's the version I first met on the 370.
>>
>> I have two versions, one in fortran dated march 11, 1977. No bear.
>>
>
https://gitlab.com/esr/open-adventure/-/tree/master
Johnny Billquist
Oct 12, 2023, 6:18:25 PM10/12/23
to
On 2023-10-12 19:02, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>>>> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>>>>> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>>>>
>>>> Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>>>> playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>>>> with hand drawn maps.
>>>
>>> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>>
>> That's the version I first met on the 370.
>
> I have two versions, one in fortran dated march 11, 1977. No bear.
The version I'm looking at is in Fortran-77 from October 1977. Bear is
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>>>> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>>>>> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>>>>
>>>> Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>>>> playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>>>> with hand drawn maps.
>>>
>>> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>>
>> That's the version I first met on the 370.
>
> I have two versions, one in fortran dated march 11, 1977. No bear.
in there.
RKB.FTN, in case you have the same sources...
If there is no Bear, how do you deal with the Troll?
Johnny
Johnny Billquist
Oct 12, 2023, 6:40:01 PM10/12/23
to
There aren't even any scoring that I can find in there, and it's
definitely pre-350 point version.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist
Oct 12, 2023, 6:40:54 PM10/12/23
to
Johnny
Johnny Billquist
Oct 12, 2023, 6:56:27 PM10/12/23
to
> If there is no Bear, how do you deal with the Troll?
bridge. And not a bunch of other stuff that is in the 350 point version.
Johnny
Peter Flass
Oct 12, 2023, 8:07:57 PM10/12/23
to
Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
> I was given a bunch of hardware & software manuals and got to design &
> implement my own monitor, device drivers, interrupt handlers, error
> recovery, storage management, etc. The univ. shutdown datacenter on
> weekends and I would have the place dedicated (although monday morning
> classes were a little hard with 48hrs w/o sleep). Within a few weeks, I
> had 2000 card assembler program. Within a year of taking intro class,
> the 360/67 had arrived and I was hired fulltime responsible for os/360
> (tss/360 never came to production fruition, so ran as 360/65).
Why didn’t you build it on top of BOS?
> I was given a bunch of hardware & software manuals and got to design &
> implement my own monitor, device drivers, interrupt handlers, error
> recovery, storage management, etc. The univ. shutdown datacenter on
> weekends and I would have the place dedicated (although monday morning
> classes were a little hard with 48hrs w/o sleep). Within a few weeks, I
> had 2000 card assembler program. Within a year of taking intro class,
> the 360/67 had arrived and I was hired fulltime responsible for os/360
> (tss/360 never came to production fruition, so ran as 360/65).
--
Pete
Peter Flass
Oct 12, 2023, 8:07:58 PM10/12/23
to
typewriter repair guy clean and adjust it. Finally, after a couple of
years, I got tired of looking at it and got rid of it. Worked fine, but
never used.
--
Pete
Lynn Wheeler
Oct 12, 2023, 10:05:47 PM10/12/23
to
Had Assembler options that generated two versions of MPIO; 1) BPS
stand-alone (low-level; device drivers, interrupt handlers, etc) and 2)
OS/360 with system services, I/O macros.
Under OS/360 on 360/30, the BPS stand-alone version took 30mins to
assemble, while the OS/360 version took an hour to assemble ... nearly
all difference was each OS/360 DCB macro took 5mins to assemble.
stand-alone (low-level; device drivers, interrupt handlers, etc) and 2)
OS/360 with system services, I/O macros.
Under OS/360 on 360/30, the BPS stand-alone version took 30mins to
assemble, while the OS/360 version took an hour to assemble ... nearly
all difference was each OS/360 DCB macro took 5mins to assemble.
Charlie Gibbs
Oct 12, 2023, 11:30:01 PM10/12/23
to
On 2023-10-13, Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Why didn’t you build it on top of BOS?
>
> Had Assembler options that generated two versions of MPIO; 1) BPS
> stand-alone (low-level; device drivers, interrupt handlers, etc) and 2)
> OS/360 with system services, I/O macros.
>
> Under OS/360 on 360/30, the BPS stand-alone version took 30mins to
> assemble, while the OS/360 version took an hour to assemble ... nearly
> all difference was each OS/360 DCB macro took 5mins to assemble.
Yeah, those DCB macros were a bear. Univac adopted a version of them
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Why didn’t you build it on top of BOS?
>
> Had Assembler options that generated two versions of MPIO; 1) BPS
> stand-alone (low-level; device drivers, interrupt handlers, etc) and 2)
> OS/360 with system services, I/O macros.
>
> Under OS/360 on 360/30, the BPS stand-alone version took 30mins to
> assemble, while the OS/360 version took an hour to assemble ... nearly
> all difference was each OS/360 DCB macro took 5mins to assemble.
in OS/3 on the 90/30. The assembler looked a lot like the 360 assembler.
There was a rumour going around that someone found the source code for
the 360 assembler in the trunk of a car. Another rumour is that IBM
wanted it found. :-)
I had written my own assembler for the Univac 9300, and it fulfilled
my design goal of running twice as fast as the standard assembler,
while providing nice extra features like a literal cross-reference
and warnings if a string constant overruns an explicit length.
I saw no reason not to write an OS/3 assembler when the time came,
and I enjoyed similar speed-ups. By the end it was working well
enough to use for sysgens.
When it takes half an hour or more just to assemble a program,
and programmers have rock-bottom priority on the machine, being
able to do your work in half the time means you get a lot more
done in the scraps of time that the operators give you.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They offer a huge range of
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | world-class vulnerabilities
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | that only Microsoft can provide.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- druck <ne...@druck.org.uk>
D.J.
Oct 13, 2023, 11:20:51 AM10/13/23
to
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 00:40:51 +0200, Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se>
--
Jim
wrote:
>On 2023-10-12 20:06, D.J. wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:13:56 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>> <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>>> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>>>>> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>>>>>> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>>>>> playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>>>>> with hand drawn maps.
>>>>
>>>> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>>>
>>> That's the version I first met on the 370.
>>
>> The one I had on my Amiga A1000, named ADVEN, had none of the animals
>> mentioned. Did have a grue in the house's chimney. The text, I had a
>> binary reader program, that it was converted from fortran source. I
>> forget the max score and the machine they said it had been converted
>> from. The score was probably 350. I think it came on a Fred Fish disk.
>
>No. That's DUNGEON (aka ZORK) and not AVENTURE.
Could be, but the filename was ADVEN.
>On 2023-10-12 20:06, D.J. wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:13:56 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>> <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>>> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>>>>> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>>>>>> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>>>>> playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>>>>> with hand drawn maps.
>>>>
>>>> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>>>
>>> That's the version I first met on the 370.
>>
>> The one I had on my Amiga A1000, named ADVEN, had none of the animals
>> mentioned. Did have a grue in the house's chimney. The text, I had a
>> binary reader program, that it was converted from fortran source. I
>> forget the max score and the machine they said it had been converted
>> from. The score was probably 350. I think it came on a Fred Fish disk.
>
>No. That's DUNGEON (aka ZORK) and not AVENTURE.
--
Jim
D.J.
Oct 13, 2023, 11:29:36 AM10/13/23
to
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 00:40:51 +0200, Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se>
I have Adventure for Windows. With a graphic showing what is in the
zip.
https://crestofastar.drivein-jim.net/articles/394/adventure-walk-throughs-for-windows
And the Adventure map for a Tandy Model 1.
https://crestofastar.drivein-jim.net/articles/393/adventure-map-for-trs-80-model-1
--
Jim
wrote:
>On 2023-10-12 20:06, D.J. wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:13:56 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>> <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>>> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>>>>> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>>>>>> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>>>>> playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>>>>> with hand drawn maps.
>>>>
>>>> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>>>
>>> That's the version I first met on the 370.
>>
>> The one I had on my Amiga A1000, named ADVEN, had none of the animals
>> mentioned. Did have a grue in the house's chimney. The text, I had a
>> binary reader program, that it was converted from fortran source. I
>> forget the max score and the machine they said it had been converted
>> from. The score was probably 350. I think it came on a Fred Fish disk.
>
>No. That's DUNGEON (aka ZORK) and not AVENTURE.
>
> Johnny
Probably time for me to post these again.
>On 2023-10-12 20:06, D.J. wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:13:56 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>> <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:43 +0200
>>> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-10-12 14:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:31:58 +0200
>>>>> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But the bare hands/bear hands comment is in Adventure. Which obviously
>>>>>> is just a silly comment and don't result in anything else/more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh wow - I never saw that one despite fart ooh many hours
>>>>> playing it on the 370 and covering vast amounts of line printer paper
>>>>> with hand drawn maps.
>>>>
>>>> I went and checked in the 350 point version (looking at the code and
>>>
>>> That's the version I first met on the 370.
>>
>> The one I had on my Amiga A1000, named ADVEN, had none of the animals
>> mentioned. Did have a grue in the house's chimney. The text, I had a
>> binary reader program, that it was converted from fortran source. I
>> forget the max score and the machine they said it had been converted
>> from. The score was probably 350. I think it came on a Fred Fish disk.
>
>No. That's DUNGEON (aka ZORK) and not AVENTURE.
>
> Johnny
I have Adventure for Windows. With a graphic showing what is in the
zip.
https://crestofastar.drivein-jim.net/articles/394/adventure-walk-throughs-for-windows
And the Adventure map for a Tandy Model 1.
https://crestofastar.drivein-jim.net/articles/393/adventure-map-for-trs-80-model-1
--
Jim
Lynn Wheeler
Oct 13, 2023, 3:39:34 PM10/13/23
to
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> Yeah, those DCB macros were a bear. Univac adopted a version of them
> in OS/3 on the 90/30. The assembler looked a lot like the 360 assembler.
> There was a rumour going around that someone found the source code for
> the 360 assembler in the trunk of a car. Another rumour is that IBM
> wanted it found. :-)
folklore is that person writing the assembler op-code lookup was told
> Yeah, those DCB macros were a bear. Univac adopted a version of them
> in OS/3 on the 90/30. The assembler looked a lot like the 360 assembler.
> There was a rumour going around that someone found the source code for
> the 360 assembler in the trunk of a car. Another rumour is that IBM
> wanted it found. :-)
that it had to be done in 256bytes (so assembler could run in minimum
memory 360) ... as a result had to sequentially read a dataset of
op-codes for each statement. Some time later, assembler got huge
speed-up by having op-codes part of the assembler.
Within year of taking intro class, the 360/67 arrived and I was hired
fulltime responsible for os/360 (tss/360 never came production fruition
so ran as 360/65 with os/360). non-resident SVCs had to fit in 2k
... as a result things like file open/close had to stream through an
enormous number of 2k pieces.
student fortran jobs had run well under a second on 709 tape->tape.
Initially on os/360 they ran well over a minute. I installed HASP and it
cut the time in half. I would reworked STAGE2 SYSGENs so could run in
production job stream and ordering of datasets and PDS members optimized
for arm seek and multi-track search, cutting elapsed time another 2/3rds
to 12.9secs. Student fortran never got better than 709 until I installed
Univ. of Waterloo's WATFOR.
archived (a.f.c.) post with part of SHARE presentation I gave on
performance work (both os/360 and some work playing with CP/67).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#18
CP/67 I started out cutting pathlengths for running OS/360 in virtual
machine. Stand alone ran 322secs, CP67 initially ran 856secs (CP67
534secs CPU). After a couple months I had cut it to 435secs (CP67
113secs CPU, 421secs CPU reduction).
I then redid dasd i/o. Originally FIFO queuing & single 4k page transfer
at time. I redid all 2314 I/O to ordered seek queueing and multiple 4k
page transfers in single I/O optimized for transfer per revolution
(paging "DRUM" was originally about 70 4k transfers/sec, got it up to
peak around 270 ... nearly channel transfer capacity).
Peter Flass
Oct 13, 2023, 5:01:17 PM10/13/23
to
Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
> student fortran jobs had run well under a second on 709 tape->tape.
> Initially on os/360 they ran well over a minute. I installed HASP and it
> cut the time in half. I would reworked STAGE2 SYSGENs so could run in
> production job stream and ordering of datasets and PDS members optimized
> for arm seek and multi-track search, cutting elapsed time another 2/3rds
> to 12.9secs. Student fortran never got better than 709 until I installed
> Univ. of Waterloo's WATFOR.
I did similar with DOS, and sped up student COBOL jobs immensely.
> student fortran jobs had run well under a second on 709 tape->tape.
> Initially on os/360 they ran well over a minute. I installed HASP and it
> cut the time in half. I would reworked STAGE2 SYSGENs so could run in
> production job stream and ordering of datasets and PDS members optimized
> for arm seek and multi-track search, cutting elapsed time another 2/3rds
> to 12.9secs. Student fortran never got better than 709 until I installed
> Univ. of Waterloo's WATFOR.
Split-cylinder for compiler work files made a huge difference.
--
Pete
Johnny Billquist
Oct 13, 2023, 8:28:31 PM10/13/23
to
with the chimney, and the grues lurking in the darkness is all
DUNGEON/ZORK. None of it exists in Adventure.
Johnny
Lynn Wheeler
Oct 14, 2023, 9:15:10 PM10/14/23
to
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
> I did similar with DOS, and sped up student COBOL jobs immensely.
> Split-cylinder for compiler work files made a huge difference.
student fortran tended to be 30-50 statements ... OS/360 3step fortgclg,
> I did similar with DOS, and sped up student COBOL jobs immensely.
> Split-cylinder for compiler work files made a huge difference.
almost all job step overhead (speeded up by careful ordering of mostly
datasets and PDS members), with a little bit of compiled output to
linkedit step output to execution step;
WATFOR was single execution step (around 12secs before speedup, 4secs
after speedup) for a card tray of batched jobs feed from HASP (say 40-70
jobs) ... which were handled as stream ... WATFOR clocked/rated at
20,000 cards/min on 360/65 (w/HASP), 333cards/sec. So 4secs single
jobstep overhead plus 2000/333, around 6-7secs for tray of cards ... or
around total 10-11secs avg for batched tray of student fortran (40-70
jobs)
Lynn Wheeler
Oct 15, 2023, 2:51:40 PM10/15/23
to
... topic drift, CICS was similar to WATFOR in countermeasure to extreme
heavyweight OS/360 overhead. Single step monitor that started, opened
all its files, and then did its best to run with minimal further use of
OS/360 system services. At the univ. the library got an ONR grant to do
online catalog and used part of the money for IBM 2321 datacell. It was
also selected to be betatest for the original CICS product and CICS
debugging got added to my tasks. CICS also did its own task and storage
management.
other CICS lore
http://www.yelavich.com/history/toc.htm
http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev196803.htm
http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev196901.htm
http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197001.htm
http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197003.htm
http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197901.htm
http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev198001.htm
http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev199203.htm
http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev200402.htm
Note one of the OS/360 issues was how terrible storage management was. A
decade ago, I was asked if I could tract down the decisions to add
virtual memory to all 370s. I found a staff member for executive making
decision. Basically, typically MVT regions had to be specified four
times larger than actually used ... as a result a 1mbyte 370/165 only
ran with four concurrent regions, insufficient to keep system busy and
justified. Going to a 16mbyte virtual memory for "MVT", would allow
increasing concurrent regions by factor of four times with little or no
paging (somewhat akin to running MVT in a CP67 16mbyte virtual
machine). Old archived (a.f.c.) post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011d.html#73
Abovee also references Simpson (HASP fame) doing "RASP" ... a virtual
memory MFT II, that also had a page-mapped filesystem. It wasn't picked
up, Simpson then leaves IBM and joins Amdahl ... re-implementing "RASP"
from scratch in coding "clean-room" (IBM legal action only found a
couple short code sequences that could be considered similar).
Dennis Boone
Oct 15, 2023, 5:35:22 PM10/15/23
to
> other CICS lore
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/toc.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev196803.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev196901.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197001.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197003.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197901.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev198001.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev199203.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev200402.htm
Lynn, note that this has apparently not existed at the indicated
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/toc.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev196803.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev196901.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197001.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197003.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197901.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev198001.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev199203.htm
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev200402.htm
URL for some years. The newest I can find in Wayback is 2013:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090331103628/http://www.yelavich.com/history/toc.htm
More recent crawls of that domain name are for (apparently) Bob's
grandson's gaming site, or a parking page.
De
Lynn Wheeler
Oct 15, 2023, 8:05:03 PM10/15/23
to
d...@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes:
> Lynn, note that this has apparently not existed at the indicated
> URL for some years. The newest I can find in Wayback is 2013:
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20090331103628/http://www.yelavich.com/history/toc.htm
>
> More recent crawls of that domain name are for (apparently) Bob's
> grandson's gaming site, or a parking page.
mea culpa, other CICS lore
> Lynn, note that this has apparently not existed at the indicated
> URL for some years. The newest I can find in Wayback is 2013:
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20090331103628/http://www.yelavich.com/history/toc.htm
>
> More recent crawls of that domain name are for (apparently) Bob's
> grandson's gaming site, or a parking page.
https://web.archive.org/web/20050409124902/http://www.yelavich.com/cicshist.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20071124013919/http://www.yelavich.com/history/toc.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20060325095552/http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev196803.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20060325095234/http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev196901.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20090106064214/http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197001.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20081201133432/http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197003.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20060325095346/http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197901.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20071021041229/http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev198001.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20070322221728/http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev199203.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20060325095613/http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev200401.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20090107054344/http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev200402.htm
Thomas Koenig
Oct 22, 2023, 2:13:50 PM10/22/23
to
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> schrieb:
> Now even terminal emulators
> are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
> Now even terminal emulators
> are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
Johnny Billquist
Oct 22, 2023, 7:23:41 PM10/22/23
to
Johnny
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Oct 23, 2023, 4:30:04 AM10/23/23
to
On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 18:13:47 -0000 (UTC)
Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
Yes but urxvt is a better one.
Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency
Johnny Billquist
Oct 23, 2023, 8:09:34 AM10/23/23
to
On 2023-10-23 10:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 18:13:47 -0000 (UTC)
> Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
>
>> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>
> Yes but urxvt is a better one.
Define "better"... ;-)
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 18:13:47 -0000 (UTC)
> Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
>
>> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>
> Yes but urxvt is a better one.
I bet urxvt looks fancier, have snassy menus, and a ton of functions.
And I also bet it's VT100 emulation have bugs.
Johnny
Bob Eager
Oct 23, 2023, 8:56:10 AM10/23/23
to
stick with xterm.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Oct 23, 2023, 9:00:15 AM10/23/23
to
On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:09:31 +0200
Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> On 2023-10-23 10:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 18:13:47 -0000 (UTC)
> > Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
> >
> >> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
> >
> > Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>
> Define "better"... ;-)
Unicode, tabs and also less memory use than xterm.
Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> On 2023-10-23 10:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 18:13:47 -0000 (UTC)
> > Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
> >
> >> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
> >
> > Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>
> Define "better"... ;-)
> I bet urxvt looks fancier, have snassy menus, and a ton of functions.
doesn't do Tectronix 4014 emulation only vt102.
> And I also bet it's VT100 emulation have bugs.
Johnny Billquist
Oct 23, 2023, 10:05:07 AM10/23/23
to
On 2023-10-23 14:50, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:09:31 +0200
> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-23 10:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 18:13:47 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>>>
>>> Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>>
>> Define "better"... ;-)
>
> Unicode, tabs and also less memory use than xterm.
xterm definitely can do Unicode (one of the things I always have to
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:09:31 +0200
> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-23 10:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 18:13:47 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>>>
>>> Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>>
>> Define "better"... ;-)
>
> Unicode, tabs and also less memory use than xterm.
remember to turn off, as I do not want it).
Tabs is clearly a fancy UI thing. :-)
Less memory? I have no idea. But considering that xterm uses little
enough memory that it don't even move the needle on my memory total, it
can't really make much of a difference with urvxt.
>> I bet urxvt looks fancier, have snassy menus, and a ton of functions.
>
> Nope, no menus and it lacks functionality that's in xterm, it
> doesn't do Tectronix 4014 emulation only vt102.
>> And I also bet it's VT100 emulation have bugs.
>
> I'm sure it does.
to send the right data is probably what for me would be the main reasons
not to use it.
But it always depends on what one needs...
Johnny
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Oct 23, 2023, 11:00:06 AM10/23/23
to
On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 16:05:04 +0200
Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> xterm definitely can do Unicode (one of the things I always have to
> remember to turn off, as I do not want it).
Ah it couldn't when I started to use urxvt. I long since
Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> xterm definitely can do Unicode (one of the things I always have to
> remember to turn off, as I do not want it).
standardised on Unicode (UTF-8 generally) because everything else is just a
mess - but then at a PPOE I was the person everyone came to with
internationalisation issues - pushing everything but Unicode to the edges
was always an essential first step for anything text encoding related. Then
I just had to cope with places that sent stuff in Win-* encodings wrongly
labelled as the not quite equivalent ISO-8859-* encodings.
> That, plus probably a lot of work compared to xterm, to get the keyboard
> to send the right data is probably what for me would be the main reasons
> not to use it.
wasn't happening by default, but it may well no longer be necessary.
urxvt*keysym.M-4: €
Scott Lurndal
Oct 23, 2023, 11:21:16 AM10/23/23
to
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:09:31 +0200
>Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-23 10:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> > On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 18:13:47 -0000 (UTC)
>> > Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
>> >
>> >> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>> >
>> > Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>>
>> Define "better"... ;-)
>
> Unicode, tabs and also less memory use than xterm.
My version of xterm supports UTF-8.
>On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:09:31 +0200
>Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-23 10:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> > On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 18:13:47 -0000 (UTC)
>> > Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
>> >
>> >> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>> >
>> > Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>>
>> Define "better"... ;-)
>
> Unicode, tabs and also less memory use than xterm.
I'd rather have two independent xterm windows than tabs.
xterm's memory usage is de minimus.
Dennis Boone
Oct 23, 2023, 2:32:21 PM10/23/23
to
> was always an essential first step for anything text encoding related. Then
> I just had to cope with places that sent stuff in Win-* encodings wrongly
> labelled as the not quite equivalent ISO-8859-* encodings.
Ah, so everything windoze touches. :(
> I just had to cope with places that sent stuff in Win-* encodings wrongly
> labelled as the not quite equivalent ISO-8859-* encodings.
De
Johnny Billquist
Oct 24, 2023, 6:25:13 AM10/24/23
to
On 2023-10-23 16:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 16:05:04 +0200
> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> xterm definitely can do Unicode (one of the things I always have to
>> remember to turn off, as I do not want it).
>
> Ah it couldn't when I started to use urxvt. I long since
> standardised on Unicode (UTF-8 generally) because everything else is just a
> mess - but then at a PPOE I was the person everyone came to with
> internationalisation issues - pushing everything but Unicode to the edges
> was always an essential first step for anything text encoding related. Then
> I just had to cope with places that sent stuff in Win-* encodings wrongly
> labelled as the not quite equivalent ISO-8859-* encodings.
Don't know how long xterm have had Unicode support, and I don't know
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 16:05:04 +0200
> Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> xterm definitely can do Unicode (one of the things I always have to
>> remember to turn off, as I do not want it).
>
> Ah it couldn't when I started to use urxvt. I long since
> standardised on Unicode (UTF-8 generally) because everything else is just a
> mess - but then at a PPOE I was the person everyone came to with
> internationalisation issues - pushing everything but Unicode to the edges
> was always an essential first step for anything text encoding related. Then
> I just had to cope with places that sent stuff in Win-* encodings wrongly
> labelled as the not quite equivalent ISO-8859-* encodings.
when you switched. But it's definitely been around in xterm way longer
than I care to remember now.
Personally I use xterm a lot in combination with connecting to old DEC
systems, which all use DEC MCS. Close enough to Latin-1 to work just
fine like that, but everything goes totally shit and bonkers if I have
UTF-8.
>> That, plus probably a lot of work compared to xterm, to get the keyboard
>> to send the right data is probably what for me would be the main reasons
>> not to use it.
>
> Not much - I have this in Xdefaults to pick up the Euro symbol that
> wasn't happening by default, but it may well no longer be necessary.
>
> urxvt*keysym.M-4: €
sending nice escape sequences like a VT100, and so on. And that's where
things can get exciting. But xterm can be told to do the right thing...
But it's obscure. Didn't see any of that in the documentation for urxvt.
So no good for such needs.
Johnny
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Oct 24, 2023, 9:00:11 AM10/24/23
to
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 12:25:10 +0200
Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> Don't know how long xterm have had Unicode support, and I don't know
> when you switched. But it's definitely been around in xterm way longer
> than I care to remember now.
It's been a very long time - no idea how long.
Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
> Don't know how long xterm have had Unicode support, and I don't know
> when you switched. But it's definitely been around in xterm way longer
> than I care to remember now.
> Personally I use xterm a lot in combination with connecting to old DEC
> systems, which all use DEC MCS. Close enough to Latin-1 to work just
courses.
Andy Burns
Oct 24, 2023, 12:58:24 PM10/24/23
to
Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>
>>> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>>
>> Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>
>>
>>> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>>
>> Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>
> I bet urxvt looks fancier, have snassy menus, and a ton of functions.
> And I also bet it's VT100 emulation have bugs.
Various exploits shown at DEFCON 31 regarding escape sequences in term
> And I also bet it's VT100 emulation have bugs.
programs on windows/macOS/linux/BSD
Scott Lurndal
Oct 24, 2023, 1:30:45 PM10/24/23
to
Lars Poulsen
Oct 31, 2023, 2:10:31 PM10/31/23
to
On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:09:31 +0200 Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
>> And I also bet [urxvt's] VT100 emulation have bugs.
On 10/23/2023 5:50 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> I'm sure it does.
"copycat" implementations would have had to decide which quirks to copy
in their emulations ...
David Lesher
Nov 4, 2023, 9:27:28 PM11/4/23
to
Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> writes:
>> Unicode, tabs and also less memory use than xterm.
>xterm definitely can do Unicode (one of the things I always have to
>remember to turn off, as I do not want it).
NOT having Unicode is a clear plus...
>> Unicode, tabs and also less memory use than xterm.
>xterm definitely can do Unicode (one of the things I always have to
>remember to turn off, as I do not want it).
--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
David Griffith
Nov 15, 2023, 1:57:32 PM11/15/23
to
a VT100 lock up and go BLEEEEEEEEE!!!!! forever.
--
David Griffith
da...@661.org
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