Bill Gates' bitter financial suffering
Tim Shoppa
Bill Gates, in his "Open Letter to Hobbyists" mentioned earlier, tells
of his sad experience. According to Bill, he and two associates produced
the Altair BASIC, investing three man years and burning up $40,000
in computer time. It was to be sold on commision through MITS for
use with Altair computers. Gates now finds that many of the "users"
he talks to praise his BASIC very highly, but few of them can admit they
bought the copy they use. He is bitter, and says that the return for his
group was less than $2 an hour for the great amount of time they put
into the programming, debugging, and documentation required to make a
first class package.
-- Calvin N. Moores, BYTE 1976:13 p.22.
Nick S Bensema
In article <6jmoti$si3$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
Few of them can admit they bought it, eh? Man, people sure didn't know
how to lie back then.
But just about everyone I know at school has Office '97 on a gold CD.
Maybe one of them has the cracked 90-day demo from long ago. And it's
not even making a dent! What gives? Maybe he's putting less money into
debugging.
--
Nick Bensema <ni...@primenet.com> 98-KUPD Red Card #710563 UIN: 2135445
~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DAN
Tim Shoppa wrote:
> Bill Gates, in his "Open Letter to Hobbyists" mentioned earlier, tells
> of his sad experience. According to Bill, he and two associates produced
> the Altair BASIC, investing three man years and burning up $40,000
> in computer time. It was to be sold on commision through MITS for
> use with Altair computers. Gates now finds that many of the "users"
> he talks to praise his BASIC very highly, but few of them can admit they
> bought the copy they use. He is bitter, and says that the return for his
> group was less than $2 an hour for the great amount of time they put
> into the programming, debugging, and documentation required to make a
> first class package.
>
Michael A. Covington
Tim Shoppa wrote in message <6jmoti$si3$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>...
And look at where he is today... Software piracy tends to pay off in a
backhanded way, by popularizing the product. Andrew Fluegelman's approach
to shareware recognized this (payment was optional), but later shareware
authors, as well as all commercial vendors, follow a strict "Pay or else!"
policy.
Michael A. Covington
I should add that I DO NOT ADVOCATE SOFTWARE PIRACY, even when pointing out
that it is not as destructive as claimed. It is up to copyright owners to
set reasonable policies.
David Lyon
Tim Shoppa <sho...@alph02.triumf.ca> wrote in article
<6jmoti$si3$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>...
> Bill Gates, in his "Open Letter to Hobbyists" mentioned earlier, tells
> of his sad experience. According to Bill, he and two associates produced
> the Altair BASIC, investing three man years and burning up $40,000
> in computer time. It was to be sold on commision through MITS for
> use with Altair computers. Gates now finds that many of the "users"
> he talks to praise his BASIC very highly, but few of them can admit they
> bought the copy they use. He is bitter, and says that the return for his
> group was less than $2 an hour for the great amount of time they put
> into the programming, debugging, and documentation required to make a
> first class package.
>
> -- Calvin N. Moores, BYTE 1976:13 p.22.
>
And I bet that his revenge was to flood the world with bug-ridden,
expensive programs that don't do as their told!
Peter Granroth
DAN (dles...@odyssee.net) wrote:
: --------------842A0D6B1995C94C089FAA1B
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: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
: Content-Disposition: inline; filename="openltr.html"
: Content-Base: "file:///D|/BACKUP/INTERNET/webpage/ope
: nltr.html"
: <HTML>
: <HEAD>
[a helluva lot HTML-formatting snipped]
: </BODY>
: </HTML>
: --------------842A0D6B1995C94C089FAA1B--
Please don't post HTML-formatted posts
Its damn hard to read with tin...
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
+ Peter Granroth + Microsoft is not the answer +
+ Mail: f95...@dd.chalmers.se + Microsoft is the question +
+ WWW: http://193.10.242.45 + The answer is NO +
---------------------------------------------------------------
Adam Stouffer
I don't think I ever paid for a microsoft product in my life
Adam
--
-----------------------------------------
| Anti Archangel #30 |
| Anti GEKKO #2 |
| Public enemy #10 |
-----------------------------------------
Carl R. Friend
Adam Stoufferin article nr. <3560DF...@NO-SPAM.sgi.net>, wrote:
>
> I don't think I ever paid for a microsoft product in my life
Have you bought a packaged Intel computer in the past 10 years?
If so, you've paid for lots of Microsoft product. They come
"bundled" with all the PCs anybody is likely to find (without
looking hard). In fact, most large suppliers won't even ship a
PC without some sort of Microsoft product installed.
Try this: Call up a distributor, tell them you want to buy an
Intel <whatever>. So far, so good. Now tell them that you _don't_
want any software on it - _and_ you want a discount as you won't be
buying the software with the box as you plan to install your own.
I'll wager that they either will (1)give you a blank look and say,
"We can't do that." (2)ship the box devoid of MS stuff but charge
the same amount of money, in which case you've purchased the
software anyway.
By the way - it's not piracy to use something you've already
bought.
Offtopic: Definition of "product" seen in the Boston Globe a while
back - crewman on cruise vessel describing the effluent of a broken
septic system on his vessel as "product". I think that fits here.
[insert grin as appropriate]
--
______________________________________________________________________
| | |
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA |
| mailto:carl....@stoneweb.com | |
| http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 |
|________________________________________________|_____________________|
David Given
In article <35615218...@stoneweb.com>,
Carl R. Friend <carl....@stoneweb.com> wrote:
>Adam Stoufferin article nr. <3560DF...@NO-SPAM.sgi.net>, wrote:
>>
>> I don't think I ever paid for a microsoft product in my life
>
> Have you bought a packaged Intel computer in the past 10 years?
>If so, you've paid for lots of Microsoft product. They come
>"bundled" with all the PCs anybody is likely to find (without
>looking hard). In fact, most large suppliers won't even ship a
>PC without some sort of Microsoft product installed.
Mine didn't. It came with two thirds of a broken PC/DOS installation on
it; yes, I know this is strange. I wiped it instantly, anyway; I was
installing Linux.
It was an Escom.
--
+- David Given ----------------+
| Work: d...@tao.co.uk | Circular definition: see "circular
| Play: d...@freeyellow.com | definition."
+- http://wiredsoc.ml.org/~dg -+
John Ackermann
> Have you bought a packaged Intel computer in the past 10 years?
>If so, you've paid for lots of Microsoft product. They come
>"bundled" with all the PCs anybody is likely to find (without
>looking hard). In fact, most large suppliers won't even ship a
>PC without some sort of Microsoft product installed.
For a long time, Microsoft's contracts with computer OEMs required them to pay
a royalty for every computer shipped, regardless of whether the Microsoft
product was included. Thus, there was no cost savings for the
manufacturer if he didn't include DOS or Windows with the machine -- he had to
pay Microsoft anyway.
This is one of the practices MS agreed to stop when they signed their consent
decree with the Justice Department some time ago.
John Ackermann
j...@febo.com
Jan van den Broek
Adam Stouffer <te...@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> writes:
>I don't think I ever paid for a microsoft product in my life
What is your point?
-- You don't use Microsoft products?
-- The products you're using where given to you?
-- You're using stolen products?
(Yes, I did pay for MS-Dos 5.0, and also for the mouse)
_________________________________________________________________________
De digitale paardenslager
Jan van den Broek
balg...@xs4all.nl
Adam Stouffer
Jan van den Broek wrote:
>
>
> What is your point?
>
> -- You don't use Microsoft products?
Yes I use them, but I would not pay for them
> -- The products you're using where given to you?
and borrowed and downloaded
> -- You're using stolen products?
>
yep, I don't feel too bad about it because they are crap to begin with.
Carl R. Friend
John Ackermann, in article nr.
<OI4gmNz...@rpc1284.daytonoh.ncr.com>, wrote:
>
> For a long time, Microsoft's contracts with computer OEMs required
> them to pay a royalty for every computer shipped, regardless of
> whether the Microsoft product was included.
>
> their consent decree with the Justice Department some time ago.
Saying they'll stop it is nice, but did it in fact stop? I'm
not speaking of things as abstract as the legalese involved; I'm
remarking on whether you can actually tell manufacturers now _not_
to include MS "product" and give the appropriate monetary credit.
I may be wrong, but I doubt that things have changed too much.
Mike Palmer
Carl,
You would be wrong. The practice stopped, but now you may be fighting
against market realities, especially if you're buying from a large
company. Even though a large company will customize your PC for you,
they may not do much with the software, primarily because it takes
more time than installing a card, or putting in a DVD instead of a
CD. Even when you ask for NO software, it can really hose up the
assembly line. In addition, PCs have to be tested before being shipped,
and that's all done with the same program, probably running under
Windows. So, shipping a PC with NO software generally means that they
have to remove software before shipping the system. At that point, it's
out of the standard assembly flow, and it gets expensive. So, from a
large computer manufacturer, you may not be able to get a machine
without
Windows - although you can probably get it without Office.
Any number of the small retailers in our area will be glad to sell
you a PC with nothing on it - although it usually comes with something
because (again) they have to test the hardware before they deliver it.
But you can get it without paying, and you can get around $40 off the
price (that's about how much OEM's pay for Windows in quantity).
-- Mike Palmer -------------------------------- Principal Engineer --
-- --
-- Reply to me at Mike . Palmer @ tus . ssi1 . com without spaces --
-- --
-- Silicon Systems, Inc. - A Subsidiary of Texas Instruments, Inc. --
-- The views expressed here are mine, and do not reflect the views --
-- of Silicon Systems, Inc. or Texas Instruments, Inc. --
Erkka Sutinen
"Carl R. Friend" <carl....@stoneweb.com> writes:
> Saying they'll stop it is nice, but did it in fact stop? I'm
> not speaking of things as abstract as the legalese involved; I'm
> remarking on whether you can actually tell manufacturers now _not_
> to include MS "product" and give the appropriate monetary credit.
Related example from CNN, http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9805/19/chapman_intv/
" Senator Hatch had his staff call Dell and say, 'I want
Netscape Navigator.' Dell said, 'No. We have an agreement
with Microsoft.' "
On other news there are remarks that the similiar per-system licenses
still exists, for example on Office. There is of course an alternative,
per copy license, but naturally per system one is cheaper. The problem
seems to be that MSFT seems to demand that per system licenses mean
every manufactured system of the product line to apply.
Then why don't manufacturers simply make one product line for systems
with MSFT products and another with same hardware but different name
for other software makers? This question is naturally humour.
--
====================================#=======================================
Erkka Sutinen, eps AT rieska.oulu.fi# The reason there aren't any decent
University of Oulu, Finland # operating systems yet is that Knuth
Computing Centre & # hasn't written a book on the subject
Elektrobit Ltd, Finland # yet. (Seen on USENET News)
jmfb...@ma.ultranet.com
[snip one newsgroup]
In article <35615218...@stoneweb.com>,
"Carl R. Friend" <carl....@stoneweb.com> wrote:
>Adam Stoufferin article nr. <3560DF...@NO-SPAM.sgi.net>, wrote:
>>
>> I don't think I ever paid for a microsoft product in my life
>
> Have you bought a packaged Intel computer in the past 10 years?
>If so, you've paid for lots of Microsoft product. They come
>"bundled" with all the PCs anybody is likely to find (without
>looking hard). In fact, most large suppliers won't even ship a
>PC without some sort of Microsoft product installed.
>
> Try this: Call up a distributor, tell them you want to buy an
>Intel <whatever>. So far, so good. Now tell them that you _don't_
>want any software on it - _and_ you want a discount as you won't be
>buying the software with the box as you plan to install your own.
>I'll wager that they either will (1)give you a blank look and say,
>"We can't do that." (2)ship the box devoid of MS stuff but charge
>the same amount of money, in which case you've purchased the
>software anyway.
We tried this about seven years ago....Call up a distributor, order
an Intel-based computer, and ask for some flavor of Unix. We were
told that having a non-Microsoft OS would delay shipment by 3-6
months. When I commented that that was ridiculous, the reply was
that there was only one person assigned to do such special
installations and that he was "backlogged". Yup. We bought the
bridge :-(.
>
> By the way - it's not piracy to use something you've already
>bought.
>
>
>Offtopic: Definition of "product" seen in the Boston Globe a while
>back - crewman on cruise vessel describing the effluent of a broken
>septic system on his vessel as "product". I think that fits here.
>[insert grin as appropriate]
>
:-))))
/BAH
S. T.
Jan van den Broek (balg...@xs4all.nl) wrote on 19 May 1998 20:10:40 +0200:> Adam Stouffer <te...@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> writes:
>
> >I don't think I ever paid for a microsoft product in my life
>
>
> -- You don't use Microsoft products?
I do.
> -- The products you're using where given to you?
No. :)
> -- You're using stolen products?
Not stolen, just "installed without authorization".
> (Yes, I did pay for MS-Dos 5.0, and also for the mouse)
The mouse is the only M$ product I've paid for, and I bought it
second-hand. I don't count the shitty version of BASIC that came with
Workbench 1.2 as "paid for". Typical M$ stuff: if you aren't
programming for Windows, break every possible rule. It had
non-standard windows (actually, stupid graphic frames that you
couldn't move); non-standard requesters; it used *address bits* for
its own purposes, so that if you used it in a computer with over 1MB
RAM it would crash; it sometimes even failed to accept syntactically
correct code! Get the point?
Rick Hawkins
> Try this: Call up a distributor, tell them you want to buy an
>Intel <whatever>. So far, so good. Now tell them that you _don't_
>want any software on it - _and_ you want a discount as you won't be
>buying the software with the box as you plan to install your own.
>I'll wager that they either will (1)give you a blank look and say,
>"We can't do that." (2)ship the box devoid of MS stuff but charge
>the same amount of money, in which case you've purchased the
>software anyway.
Just off the cuff: gateway. Several web-configurable models which have
a "No OS" option, which is indeed cheaper than windows.
--
R E HAWKINS
rhaw...@iastate.edu
These opinions will not be those of ISU until they pay my retainer.
Proteus
On Tue, 19 May 1998 05:34:16 -0400, "Carl R. Friend"
<carl....@stoneweb.com> wrote:
> Try this: Call up a distributor, tell them you want to buy an
>Intel <whatever>. So far, so good. Now tell them that you _don't_
>want any software on it - _and_ you want a discount as you won't be
>buying the software with the box as you plan to install your own.
>I'll wager that they either will (1)give you a blank look and say,
>"We can't do that." (2)ship the box devoid of MS stuff but charge
>the same amount of money, in which case you've purchased the
>software anyway.
Lots of companies sell computers with no software on it and
they don't charge for it. Usually these are fairly small companies,
but they will do it.
******************************************************
"Only two things are infinite, the universe
and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about
the former."
- Albert Einstein
******************************************************
Dr. Peter Kittel
In article <3562A144.M...@spam.he.re> "S. T." <n...@spam.he.re> writes:
>
>The mouse is the only M$ product I've paid for, and I bought it
>second-hand. I don't count the shitty version of BASIC that came with
>Workbench 1.2 as "paid for". Typical M$ stuff: if you aren't
>programming for Windows, break every possible rule. It had
>non-standard windows (actually, stupid graphic frames that you
>couldn't move);
Huh? RTFM, there are bits in the WINDOW open command to achieve any
kind of window, with draggable title bar or without. And you don't
get the latter when you do not provide a title string.
> non-standard requesters; it used *address bits* for
>its own purposes, so that if you used it in a computer with over 1MB
>RAM it would crash; it sometimes even failed to accept syntactically
>correct code! Get the point?
Sure. But the most interesting bit for me was that this version was
a direct port from M$' Macintosh Basic. From that heritage it also
got the address bits abuse method.
--
Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // http://www.pios.de of PIOS
Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ office: peterk @ pios.de
Wes Szumera
ni...@primenet.com (Nick S Bensema) wrote:
>In article <6jmoti$si3$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
>Tim Shoppa <sho...@alph02.triumf.ca> wrote:
[snip]>
>Few of them can admit they bought it, eh? Man, people sure didn't know
>how to lie back then.
>
>But just about everyone I know at school has Office '97 on a gold CD.
>Maybe one of them has the cracked 90-day demo from long ago. And it's
>not even making a dent! What gives? Maybe he's putting less money into
>debugging.
This is the same guy that killed WP and Quattro in the market place by
making office cheap as hell to get into. Course after I have my plant
running a number of licenses legally and concurrently using metering,
he pulls concurance out of the licence and future upgrades. I do not
feel bad for him.
"Oh, dear, you shot and killed the poor mugger. He wasn't expecting
that" "That isn't fair" "Bullies deserve what they get"
There is a saying that what comes around, goes around. Screw Borland
I and I look down on you, screw Microsoft, and I think what is good
for the goose is great for the gander.
Sorry for the rant but Microsoft has ripped me off and it realy upsets
me when I try to play fair and get taken to the cleaners.
Yes to Novell, Borland, Caldera, Redhat and Sun. (Never had Sun
equipment but MS is trying to do them over JAVA)
I will not rant in this news group for at least 6 months so if you
dont flame, I will stop on this thread. Just have to get this off my
chest.
Wes
Rick Hawkins
In article <35620CE7...@stoneweb.com>,
><OI4gmNz...@rpc1284.daytonoh.ncr.com>, wrote:
>>
>> For a long time, Microsoft's contracts with computer OEMs required
>> them to pay a royalty for every computer shipped, regardless of
>> whether the Microsoft product was included.
>>
>> This is one of the practices MS agreed to stop when they signed
>> their consent decree with the Justice Department some time ago.
> Saying they'll stop it is nice, but did it in fact stop? I'm
>not speaking of things as abstract as the legalese involved; I'm
>remarking on whether you can actually tell manufacturers now _not_
>to include MS "product" and give the appropriate monetary credit.
> I may be wrong, but I doubt that things have changed too much.
You're wrong :) I don't know about others, but gateway offeres many of
it's machines with a "No OS" option, at about $100 less if NT is
standard. And as I understand it, it's possible to order others taht
don't list the option this way too, at least if your organization buys a
lot.
rick
Peter Seebach
In article <6kc5ts$s4f$1...@news.iastate.edu>,
Rick Hawkins <rhaw...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>You're wrong :) I don't know about others, but gateway offeres many of
>it's machines with a "No OS" option, at about $100 less if NT is
>standard. And as I understand it, it's possible to order others taht
>don't list the option this way too, at least if your organization buys a
>lot.
Which models? I was unable to find a Windows-less laptop... At one point
I wanted to buy a Gateway computer with no video card, hard drive, or OS, but
I couldn't. I verified at length that they said (last October?) that they
were contractually required to ship Windows with every laptop.
-s
--
Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help.
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!
Rick Hawkins
In article <8C5b1.369$3j7.1...@ptah.visi.com>,
Peter Seebach <se...@plethora.net> wrote:
>In article <6kc5ts$s4f$1...@news.iastate.edu>,
>Rick Hawkins <rhaw...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>>You're wrong :) I don't know about others, but gateway offeres many of
>>it's machines with a "No OS" option, at about $100 less if NT is
>>standard. And as I understand it, it's possible to order others taht
>>don't list the option this way too, at least if your organization buys a
>>lot.
>
>Which models? I was unable to find a Windows-less laptop... At one point
>I wanted to buy a Gateway computer with no video card, hard drive, or OS, but
>I couldn't. I verified at length that they said (last October?) that they
>were contractually required to ship Windows with every laptop.
I don't know about laptops. We were looking at dual P-II's that they
call servers.
I can state with authority thought that there is a consent decree which
prohibits and invalidates the "every unit" for windows contracts, though
. . . I forget the date of that decree, but i thought it was about two
years ago.
A few years ago, I tried explaining to one of apple's reps that I (and
others) *wanted* to buy computers with no memory or drive. She just
couldn't understand why anyone would desire such a thing--even thought
apple wasn't shipping drives in the larger sizes that were readily
available.
Kaz Kylheku
On 28 May 1998 14:44:47 GMT, rhaw...@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) wrote:
>I can state with authority thought that there is a consent decree which
>prohibits and invalidates the "every unit" for windows contracts, though
>. . . I forget the date of that decree, but i thought it was about two
>years ago.
Does that decree have any meaning outside of the United States? ;)
>A few years ago, I tried explaining to one of apple's reps that I (and
>others) *wanted* to buy computers with no memory or drive. She just
>couldn't understand why anyone would desire such a thing--even thought
>apple wasn't shipping drives in the larger sizes that were readily
>available.
I once tried getting a certain mounting bracket for a Mac so that
a third-party drive could be installed. It was impossible to get.
Rick Hawkins
In article <356de6c1...@207.126.101.81>,
Kaz Kylheku <k...@cafe.net> wrote:
>On 28 May 1998 14:44:47 GMT, rhaw...@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) wrote:
>
>>I can state with authority thought that there is a consent decree which
>>prohibits and invalidates the "every unit" for windows contracts, though
>>. . . I forget the date of that decree, but i thought it was about two
>>years ago.
>Does that decree have any meaning outside of the United States? ;)
It would depend upon how its written . . . I'd have to see it to tell,
but probably not.
Joe Thompson
> I once tried getting a certain mounting bracket for a Mac so that
> a third-party drive could be installed. It was impossible to get.
A friend in a similar situation got out his hacksaw and drill and made a
hole in the top of the case, ran power and drive cables out the hole, and
mounted the drive externally. Damn the mount brackets, full speed ahead!
-- Joe
--
Joe Thompson | By sending commercial | Tech support is a fine
O- He-Who-Grinds- | e-mail, you agree to | art which, once mastered,
the-Unworthy | pay US$1000.00/item. | ensures loss of sanity.
http://kensey.home.mindspring.com/ - Electrify the gene pool's fence!
Randall Joiner
>> I once tried getting a certain mounting bracket for a Mac so that
>> a third-party drive could be installed. It was impossible to get.
>
>A friend in a similar situation got out his hacksaw and drill and made a
>hole in the top of the case, ran power and drive cables out the hole, and
>mounted the drive externally. Damn the mount brackets, full speed ahead!
>-- Joe
I've got two for ya... I took a circular saw to my roomate's computer
(Compaq piece of proprietary crap) to cut part of the case off so I
could get to the ONE card slot that was availible, to install the
proprietary card for the EXTERNAL cd rom... You should have seen his
eyes go wide when I turned that saw on... :)
The second- My co-worker bought one of the companies "hand-me down"
computers... Old 486 compaq, with those damn "quick" release mount
brackets that had the screws in the very front, and rails that slid
back into the cage... No holes to mount any screws into on the sides
OR top!!!!!! So, there was a 3 1/2 drive in there, and I wedged the
cd rom in with a single screw (don't ask how I got that one in, it
wasn't pretty, and I didn't have the tools to do it proper) and the
packing foam (blue) that the drive came in... Aside from a barely
perceptable tilt to the drive, you can't tell it isn't properly
installed, and the thing is VERY shock resistant. Actually saw it
continue playing after bumping about a foot.
Oh, and my current tower case is made of wood... I got tired of other
people (manufactorer's) imposing thier idea of "quick and easy" access
to thier inerds, so I made my own. No screws, just three snaps, and
the card drawer slides out, the motherboard can be reached with one
more snap, and the drive cages flip up. Oh, the wires also have thier
own grooves in which to run.
Anyone else have any war-stories about Jury-rigging things?
Randall Joiner
Bryce Utting
Randall Joiner (rljo...@mindspring.nospam.com) wrote:
>I've got two for ya... I took a circular saw to my roomate's computer
>(Compaq piece of proprietary crap) to cut part of the case off so I
>could get to the ONE card slot that was availible, to install the
>proprietary card for the EXTERNAL cd rom... You should have seen his
>eyes go wide when I turned that saw on... :)
Forget his eyes. What did the -computer- do?
butting (never seen a powered-down machine dump core, myself)
--
Bryce Utting http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting
the cross before me, the world behind me
no turning back