TSS/360

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Nov 25, 2001, 12:31:37 PM11/25/01

to

ehs suggested a repost here ... possibly comparing the size of the
Multics & TSS/360 organizations.

IBM had bid 360/67 for multics (maybe still 360/62 at that time before
models 60, 62, 70, got renamed 65, 67, & 75 because of the faster
memory technology) and cambridge (2nd & 4th floor, 545 tech. sq) had
planned to play a significant part in that activity.

Loosing the bid, IBM created a group in mohansic for TSS/360, a
virtual memory operating system that would run on the 360/67. This
would have been sometime '66. I think by '68, the mohansic
organization was up to somewhere in the 1000-1200 headcount range
working on TSS/360. This continued up through the '70s although TSS
was "decommitted" (it wasn't actually canceled, but the group was
reduced to possibly 20-30 head-count responsible for supporting the
dozen or so major customers).

Later in the '70s & early '80s, TSS(/370) saw some significant
re-vitalization from AT&T and bell-labs .... using it as sort-of a
microkernel for Unix running on mainframes.

During this period, the cambridge group at the 4th floor started the
virtual machine project; first with CP/40 and CMS i.e., custom,
relocation hardware was added to a 360/40 and the virtual machine
monitor was developed while the user environment "CMS" was being
developed in parallel to "run" in a virtual machine. Finally a 360/67
became available in Cambridge and the CP/40 monitor was ported to
360/67 (changing its name to CP/67). I would estimate that by '70 or
'71 3-4 times as many 360/67s were running CP/67 as was running
TSS/360.

The CP/67 group was split off from the scientific center, eventually
taking over the 3rd floor and absorbing most of the IBM Boston
Programming Center (and many of the people that had worked on CPS
... a non-virtual-memory, 360-based "conversational programming
system" as well as jean sammet and some misc. other people). The
group/product was renamed VM/370 for the port/introduction of virtual
memory on the 370 line of computers.

Eventually, the group was bursting at the seams in 545 tech. sq and
was relocated to a recently vacated SBS building in burlington mall
(SBS been turned over/sold to CDC as part of gov. settlement of ibm
getting out of service bureau business).

Later in the '70s, when the burlington mall group was shutdown (the
group had grown to possible 200 or so by that time) and all the people
were told to move to POK to work on the VMTOOL ... a significant
number left IBM (especially a lot of the CMS developers) and went to
work for DEC on VMS (this was one of those periods when there wasn't
going to be anymore VM/370 releases and all the people were needed to
support the "internal-only" VMTOOL ... a virtual machine monitor tool
that was dedicaetd to MVS/XA development).

a lot of this is covered in much more detail (including misc & sundry CTSS
happenings) in Melinda's history paper at:
http://pucc.princeton.edu/~melinda/

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | ly...@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

Tom Van Vleck

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Nov 26, 2001, 9:18:21 AM11/26/01

to

Lynn's post sure brings back memories of the 60s.
I moved from Project MAC to the MIT Comp Center
about 1969, continuing to work on Multics but also
taking on responsibility for the declining CTSS and
the 360/67 that the MIT Urban Systems Lab had obtained,
run for a year, and then turned over to the Center.
So I got to meet and work with some of the CP/CMS
developers on the third floor of Tech Square, and
heard presentations about TSS/360 at IBM SHARE meetings.

More pointers:
CTSS http://www.multicians.org/thvv/7094.html
CP/CMS http://www.multicians.org/thvv/360-67.html

Douglas H. Quebbeman

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Nov 26, 2001, 10:53:07 AM11/26/01

to

"Anne & Lynn Wheeler" <ly...@garlic.com> wrote in message
news:u7kserc4...@earthlink.net...

>
> ehs suggested a repost here ... possibly comparing the size of the
> Multics & TSS/360 organizations.

It's an OT remark for this newgroup, but it sure would be nice
if a copy of TSS/360 or CP/67 would surface for use with the
Hercules emulator...

-dq

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Nov 26, 2001, 12:31:39 PM11/26/01

to

Tom Van Vleck <th...@multicians.org> writes:

> Lynn's post sure brings back memories of the 60s.
> I moved from Project MAC to the MIT Comp Center
> about 1969, continuing to work on Multics but also
> taking on responsibility for the declining CTSS and
> the 360/67 that the MIT Urban Systems Lab had obtained,
> run for a year, and then turned over to the Center.
> So I got to meet and work with some of the CP/CMS
> developers on the third floor of Tech Square, and
> heard presentations about TSS/360 at IBM SHARE meetings.

in terms of group size ... the TSS/360 group had grown to about
1000-1200 in the late '60s ... while the CP/40,CP/67,CMS group (within
the science center at 545 tech sq) had grown to 14 by the start of
1970 (CSC on about 1/2 the 4th floor, around 35 people total, with the
machine room on about 1/2 of the 2nd floor).

The CP/67 group grew quickly during 70/71 from 14 to maybe 60(?)
taking over 3/4ths of the 3rd floor, absorbing the boston programming
center, etc (and changed its name to vm/370 officially when virtual
memory was finally announced for 370 machines).

As it was bursting at the seams on the 3rd floor, the group moved out
to the vacated (ibm) service bureau building in burlington mall where
the group grew to 200 or so people until '76 when it was shutdown and
moved to POK.

The VM/370 group at its peak in the '70s with thousands of
installations was possibly 1/6th the size of the tss/360 group at its
peak (with its dozen installations).

Jeff Raben

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Nov 28, 2001, 12:45:54 PM11/28/01

to

how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs)
and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67?

The combination ran on many univerity machines.

Jeff
and stir with a Runcible spoon...

Stephen H. Westin

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Nov 28, 2001, 1:59:47 PM11/28/01

to

jra...@cascinc.com (Jeff Raben) writes:

> how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs)
> and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67?
>
> The combination ran on many univerity machines.

I think you mean UMMPS (the University of Michigan Multiprogramming
System), the substrate for MTS. UMMPS may have been originally based
on something from Lincoln Labs.

I think the total count of installations never grew beyond about ten.

But anyway, it's an interesting part of the whole story. As I
understand it (based on tales and talks from the Michigan side of
things), it all starts with IBM's unsuccessful bid on the Multics
hardware. This was deemed, in retrospect, a Bad Thing, and IBM became
rather more cooperative with universities, including Michigan. The
specified machine was known as the 360/65M ("M" for "Michigan"), and
seen as a one-off device to save prestige.

But the IBM view of the market changed (or at least politics within
IBM changed), and it soon became the 360/67, a full-fledged production
model, and TSS/360 was to be written to run on it to provide full
virtual-memory time sharing. As Lynn Wheeler has described, a large
team was put together. What wasn't mentioned was how late it all
was. Michigan got a 360/50, I believe, as a stopgap, and MTS was
originally written as a toy time-sharing system for that. The '67
arrived in, aptly enough, 1967, but with no OS. The staff grew tired
of running in Model 65 mode, and enhanced MTS to use the VM hardware
on the '67. This was all a 2-person effort, or near it.

They stole various compilers and utilities from OS/360 and hacked them
to run on MTS, put together a simple file system, etc. By the time
TSS/360 arrived, it was deemed to be not worth the bother, and MTS
continued as the OS for academic computing at Michigan. It ran on the
360/67 and was modified for symmetric multiprocessing when that
machine was upgraded with a second processor. Later it was ported to a
370/168 as an interim measure, then the first Amdahl 470/V6. It
continued on various big IBM (and compatible) hardware until about
1995.

Other universities running MTS included Wayne State (in Detroit), the
University of British Columbia, and the University of Grenoble, if
memory serves.

The executive summary would be that it was a much less ambitious
project than Multics (or TSS/360), and probably succeeded because of
that. For example, it lacked a tree directory structure, E-mail, and
shared files for several years; they were added later. But then, they
had a system in production in May, 1967. Another element of its
success was shared with Multics, CP/67, and Unix: the developers were
actually running an installation with real users.

The relationship with IBM didn't remain that close; while Michigan
specified quite a bit of what became the 360/67, the 370's ignored
certain suggestions from that quarter.

For more details, see
<http://www.itd.umich.edu/~doc/Digest/0596/feat02.html>.

--
-Stephen H. Westin
Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not
represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors.

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Nov 28, 2001, 4:16:18 PM11/28/01

to

jra...@cascinc.com (Jeff Raben) writes:

note that LLMPS was mostly simple (ibm/360) multitasker with a number
of simple unit-record and tape utilities (card->tape, print tape, copy
tape, punch cards, etc). It was a contributed Share program ... I
still have the LLMPS manual in a box someplace.

The (strong) rumor is that MTS started off using the LLMPS multitasker
for the original base for developing MTS ... Michigan Terminal System,
an interactive, virtual memory system for the 360/67 ... offering a
lot of vanilla os/360 facilities in a interactive, online environment.

Lincolm Labs had a duplex '67 and was the first installation to get
CP/67 installed from the Cambridge Science Center (sometime in
'67). The university that I was at was the 2nd installation (after
lincoln) ... getting CP/67 installed the last week in Jan. 1968.

For the 360/67 there were (at least) virtual memory, paging systems
TSS/360
CP/67
MTS

There was also a virtual memory, non-paging hack done to OS/360 MVT13
running on a pair of 360/67s at Boeing Huntsville. OS/360 for long
running applications could get into severe storage
fragmentation. Boeing Huntsville ran a number of long-running 2250
(large vector display, used for CAD design and other) applications
that would eventually result in severe OS/360 storage
fragmentation. The virtual memory, non-paging hack to MVT13 was to
help medicate storage fragmentation problems (i.e. use virtual memory
to be able to provide something that looked like contiguous storage
regions for each application).

There was also a special tri-plex, fully redundant 360/67 for some
real-time gov. project being done by Lockheed ... which was writing
their own special code (I don't know much about this one).

In the '60s, there were also at least two service bureau spin-offs
using CP/67, one was NCSS in stamford, conn. and the other was IDC (a
number of lincoln labs. people) out in waltham.

In the middle of June, '68 Cambridge Science Center was holding a one
week CP/67 class for prospective & current customers) at a location in
Beverly Hills that the University sent me to. The week (possibly
friday) the class was to start, several of the people resigned from
CSC as part of forming the NCSS startup. As a result, I got pressed
into teaching a lot of the class. I believe that sometime in the '70s,
NCSS may have also installed a Multics system.

Dec. '68 or Jan. '69, Boeing created Boeing Computer Services with the
idea of moving all of their commerical dataprocessing into BCS and be
able to start operating it as a profit center (as opposed to cost
center). During '69, spring break, IBM talked me into giving a one
week computer class to the BCS technical staff (that had been
integrated into BCS up to that point). About that time they moved the
Boeing Huntsville 360/67s to Seattle. Boeing eventually had quite a
few 360/67s running CP/67.

misc. MTS & LLMPS postings from the past:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#15 unit record & other controllers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#23 MTS & LLMPS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#25 MTS & LLMPS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#26 MTS & LLMPS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#15 S/360 operating systems geneaology
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#174 S/360 history

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#89 Ux's good points.

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#91 Ux's good points.

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#61 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort)

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#44 WHAT IS A MAINFRAME???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#52 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#0 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#2 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#13 High Level Language Systems was Re: computer books/authors (Re: FA:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#24 "Hollerith" card code to EBCDIC conversion
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#71 IBM 9020 FAA/ATC Systems from 1960's
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#30 IBM OS Timeline?

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#34 IBM OS Timeline?

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#27 Is anybody out there still writting BAL 370.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#5 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#9 mainframe question

misc. bcs postings
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#32 Roads as Runways Was: Re: BA Solve
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#130 early hardware
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#66 360 Architecture, Multics, ... was (Re: X86 ultimate CISC? No.)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#8 "HAL's Legacy and the Vision of 2001: A Space Odyssey"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#9 "HAL's Legacy and the Vision of 2001: A Space Odyssey"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#23 Linux IA-64 interrupts [was Re: Itanium benchmarks ...]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#56 YKYBHTLW....
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#32 mainframe question

Stephen H. Westin

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Nov 28, 2001, 4:27:51 PM11/28/01

to

Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> writes:

> jra...@cascinc.com (Jeff Raben) writes:
>
> > how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs)
> > and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67?
> >
> > The combination ran on many univerity machines.
> >
> > Jeff
> > and stir with a Runcible spoon...
>
> note that LLMPS was mostly simple (ibm/360) multitasker with a number
> of simple unit-record and tape utilities (card->tape, print tape, copy
> tape, punch cards, etc). It was a contributed Share program ... I
> still have the LLMPS manual in a box someplace.
>
> The (strong) rumor is that MTS started off using the LLMPS multitasker
> for the original base for developing MTS ... Michigan Terminal System,
> an interactive, virtual memory system for the 360/67 ... offering a
> lot of vanilla os/360 facilities in a interactive, online environment.

That's really selling MTS short. Its user interface resembled OS not
at all, file structures were totally different, there was no linker,
etc.

What did happen was that various useful OS packages were ported: the
level G and H FORTRAN compilers and APL\360, to my knowledge. I
suppose many of the 3rd-party programs such as the Waterloo
WATFOR/WATFIV FORTRAN environment, PL/C, and Algol W were ported from
OS as well. This only made sense, as the development team was always
tiny by IBM standards.

But editors (including the full-screen CRT editor) and
many other things were home-grown for MTS. I especially remember
Interactive Fortran, a source-level interactive development
environment circa 1975.

Actually, I rather liked the MTS file system. There were two basic
kinds of files: sequential and line-number files. The latter were the
norm, and allowed you to access each line randomly and alter it at
will. Because of this, the editor had no notion of loading or saving
files; you just made alterations directly to the disk image, with a
maximum of a single line at risk.

<snip>

Tom Van Vleck

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Nov 28, 2001, 5:59:34 PM11/28/01

to

Lynn Wheeler wrote:

> I believe that sometime in the '70s,
> NCSS may have also installed a Multics system.

I don't believe this happened.
I think there was a sales effort but no sale was made,
alas. Some good folks were at NCSS.

Tom Van Vleck

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Nov 28, 2001, 6:03:36 PM11/28/01

to

Jeff Raben wrote:

> how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs)
> and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67?

There is a little about MTS on my 360/67 page
http://www.multicians.org/thvv/360-67.html
and a link on the Multics links page to Susan Topol's article:
http://www.itd.umich.edu/~doc/Digest/0596/feat02.html

Alistair Gale

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Nov 28, 2001, 11:28:23 PM11/28/01

to

Where does MUSIC (McGill University System for Interactive Comnputing)
fit in the history of IBM mainframe timesharing systems? I used it at
the eponymous universtity in the early '80s to compile and run Watfiv,
PL/I and to play Adventure. Was/is it used anywhere besides McGill?

--
alistair

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Nov 29, 2001, 1:00:59 AM11/29/01

to

Alistair Gale <alis...@caribsurf.com> writes:
>
> Where does MUSIC (McGill University System for Interactive Comnputing)
> fit in the history of IBM mainframe timesharing systems? I used it at
> the eponymous universtity in the early '80s to compile and run Watfiv,
> PL/I and to play Adventure. Was/is it used anywhere besides McGill?

there were a number of non-virtual-memory interactive systems for standard
360s .... although MUSIC did see later wide deployment under vm/370.

Most of them came up on standard ibm operating system for various specific
functions ... but took over most of the scheduling and interactive services.

CPS (converstational programming system) done by the IBM Boston
Programming Center was one such. It supported "interactive" PL/I and
there was even optional special 360/50 microcode speedup done for CPS.

Another example is the original apl/360 (or apl\360) done by the ibm
phili science center (cambridge modified it into cms/apl and rewrote
the garbage collection for large workspaces and virtual memory).

A much more "controlled" example would be CICS ... which is brought up
... loads a specific set of interactive environment and manages all of
the resources dedicated to it (although the types of interactive
services available tends to be more controlled and limited than some
of the other interactive offerings). Early IMS also fell somewhat into
similar category.

Stanford had Wylbur which could somewhat be considered another
example.

Another was MUMPS (I think original done somewhere in the boston area,
find it in the medical industry) ... which also eventually saw wide
deployment under VM/370.

Of course another is PARS ... or ACP ... airline control program which
was the mainstay of the airline reservation world (reservation
terminals, check-in counters, etc) ... now called TPF. It has
somewhat branched out from just purely airline reservation systems
into other industry reservation systems and some of the financial
transaction networks.

That is off the top of my head ... 60s/70s IBM mainframe,
non-virtual-memory, interactive systems (or subsystems).

Edward Rice

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Nov 29, 2001, 2:16:40 AM11/29/01

to

In article <uy9kq1...@earthlink.net>,

Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:

> CSC as part of forming the NCSS startup. As a result, I got pressed
> into teaching a lot of the class. I believe that sometime in the '70s,
> NCSS may have also installed a Multics system.

I'm pretty sure that National CSS never bought Multics, but I know we
marketed to them. Your summary also explains a few odd things I'd never
understood, like why Wayne State became a Multics site. (Wayne State?
where'd THEY come from?)

Edward

CBFalconer

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Nov 29, 2001, 4:37:38 AM11/29/01

to

Alistair Gale wrote:
>
... snip ...

>
> Where does MUSIC (McGill University System for Interactive Comnputing)
> fit in the history of IBM mainframe timesharing systems? I used it at
> the eponymous universtity in the early '80s to compile and run Watfiv,
> PL/I and to play Adventure. Was/is it used anywhere besides McGill?

Never heard of it, but then that was long after my time there,
which was primarily devoted to playing hearts and bridge in the
student union.

--
Chuck F (cbfal...@yahoo.com) (cbfal...@XXXXworldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
(Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified)
mailto:u...@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest)

Stephen H. Westin

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Nov 29, 2001, 9:01:48 AM11/29/01

to

ehr...@his.com (Edward Rice) writes:

Wayne State is a large university in inner-city Detroit, comparable in
size to Michigan State and the University of Michigan, but lacking
their visibility and prestige.

Funny, they were an MTS site. And they're not listed on the Multicians
Web site. Was there a typo above?

Edward Rice

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Nov 29, 2001, 1:38:58 PM11/29/01

to

In article <uy9kp7...@graphics.cornell.edu>,

westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote:

> ehr...@his.com (Edward Rice) writes:
>
> > In article <uy9kq1...@earthlink.net>,
> > Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
> >
> > > CSC as part of forming the NCSS startup. As a result, I got pressed
> > > into teaching a lot of the class. I believe that sometime in the
'70s,
> > > NCSS may have also installed a Multics system.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure that National CSS never bought Multics, but I know we
> > marketed to them. Your summary also explains a few odd things I'd
never
> > understood, like why Wayne State became a Multics site. (Wayne State?

> > where'd THEY come from?)
>
> Wayne State is a large university in inner-city Detroit, comparable in
> size to Michigan State and the University of Michigan, but lacking
> their visibility and prestige.
>
> Funny, they were an MTS site. And they're not listed on the Multicians
> Web site. Was there a typo above?

I /thought/ Wayne State was a site. At the time, after my first thought
(above), all I could come up with as a rationale was that they were a
vo-tech'y school near enough to Detroit to want a Multics system just like
the car companies had. I'm fairly sure I've seen written indications of
them being a site, but I definitely have none in my possession -- FSO could
wander kind of all over the map when it came to Multics, but the Major
Accounts Office for Automotive was /strictly/ hands-off and
keep-your-distance. I'm not clear on why -- we swapped technical
information with most of the sites, but almost none at all with the Detroit
shops. And GM was the /only/ other site in the Multics world running
production with multi-level security enabled. (CISL did, I know, but that
was development.)

Edward

Vincent Scarafino

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Nov 29, 2001, 2:29:37 PM11/29/01

to

Oakland University was a Multics site. It's located just north of
Detroit. Could it be Oakland you are thinking about? Wayne had MTS.

Edward Rice wrote:

...

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

unread,

Dec 1, 2001, 11:27:57 AM12/1/01

to

cbbr...@acm.org writes:
> b) Capabilities.
>
> Capabilities are cool, because you attach them to programs, thus
> granting, to the program, the ability to access only what you set
> up the capabilities to grant access to.

tymshare did an operating system for ibm mainframe called gnosis
(which was spun-off when M/D bought tymshare and renamed):

keykos
http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~KeyKOS The KeyKOS System

misc. pieces from above:

U.S. Patent 4,584,639 - Covering the KeyKOS "Factory" The infamous
(and much lamented - at least by me) "Factory Patent", covering the
mechanism for secure sharing of programs among mutually suspicious
users.

===

The Confused Deputy (1988)

Sometimes program must run under a combination of authorities. This
leads to obscure bugs and security holes. This paper identifies the
cause of the problem, and points out some solutions. The paper is also
available in postscript form.

===

derivative work for intel platform
http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~eros/ EROS: The Extremely Reliable Operating System

random gnosis/keykos refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#69 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#22 No more innovation? Get serious
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#73 7090 vs. 7094 etc.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#33 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#35 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | ly...@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

Gene Wirchenko

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Dec 2, 2001, 1:13:37 AM12/2/01

to

westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote:

>jra...@cascinc.com (Jeff Raben) writes:
>
>> how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs)
>> and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67?

^^^^^^^^^
"Terminal", at least, what I used.

>> The combination ran on many univerity machines.
>
>I think you mean UMMPS (the University of Michigan Multiprogramming
>System), the substrate for MTS. UMMPS may have been originally based

^^^^^^
"Supervisor", at least, what I used.

>on something from Lincoln Labs.
>
>I think the total count of installations never grew beyond about ten.

[snip]

>Other universities running MTS included Wayne State (in Detroit), the
>University of British Columbia, and the University of Grenoble, if

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes. That's where I used it. Later, Simon Fraser University
did. I think University of Alberta did, too.

>memory serves.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.

Richard Shetron

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Dec 2, 2001, 8:40:02 AM12/2/01

to

RPI (Rensselaer Polytechnic, Troy, NY) ran MTS starting around 1976 on
a 360/67 under cp-67. I'm not sure when it was discontinued. It might
still be being run for some admin tasks on the 390. General student
access was stopped a few years ago as they started handing out laptops
to all incoming freshman. All the oncampus buildings including dorms
and student union have been wired for ethernet for years. About 4 years
ago I think they wired some of the nearer off campus fraternity/sorority
houses as well.

It was a great improvement over the previous 'interactive' system
called Alpha. Alpha basically turned a 2741 terminal into a card reader
for input and line printer for output. I still remember doing a LISP
project and having to hit enter twice after each line. One to end the
physical line and the second time so the batch LISP could see there
was no continueation character on the next line so it could process the
previous line.

I co-op'd at Griffiss AFB/RADC which upgraded from a 645 to a 6180
between my 75 and 76 co-op semesters. They kept the core boxes. I ran a
numerical application (unclassified) so I ran it on both the 6180 Multics
and the 360/67 under CP-67/OS-360. The Multics fortran compiler compiled
as fast as Watfiv (very fast compile, very slow run) and executed as
fast as Fortran-H (slow compile, fast run). According to the manuals,
the instruction times for similar instructions were about the same.
--
Richard Shetron mul...@ruserved.com mul...@acm.rpi.edu NO UCE
LEGAL NOTICE:Sender of UCE to this address agrees to pay me $500/email
plus any and all costs of colleciton.

glen herrmannsfeldt

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Dec 6, 2001, 2:12:43 PM12/6/01

to

Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> writes:

(snip regarding timesharing and/or the 360/67)

>Stanford had Wylbur which could somewhat be considered another
>example.

Wylbur was the text editor, which would run without DAT hardware.

Orvyl was the subsystem that did timesharing, and required DAT.

The Orvyl API was completely different from the OS/360 API, though.
I did allow one to write routines to process SVC's, and such
routines existed to do some of the common SVC's. Starting with
such a routine, I added SPIE processing so that I could run
PL/I (F) object modules. (Orvyl took object modules as input,
but not OS style load modules. There was a system of SNOBOL
code and such that would process the SYSPRINT output from the
OS linkage editor, load the appropriate object modules from an
object module library, and supply the result to the ORVYL linker.)

I do wonder sometimes if Wylbur and Orvyl are still around.
(Milten was the terminal I/O handler, and Susan the SVC to
communicate between them.)

-- glen

Charles Richmond

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Dec 6, 2001, 5:36:59 PM12/6/01

to

Texas Tech University in Lubbock, Texas is still using Wylbur.
Check out the following Wylbur tutorial on their WEB pages:

<http://www.itts.ttu.edu/documentation/wylbur/wylbur.html>

--
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond <rich...@plano.net> |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

John Alvord

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Dec 28, 2001, 8:12:58 PM12/28/01

to

On 28 Nov 2001 13:59:47 -0500, westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu
(Stephen H. Westin) wrote:

>jra...@cascinc.com (Jeff Raben) writes:
>
>> how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs)
>> and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67?
>>
>> The combination ran on many univerity machines.
>
>I think you mean UMMPS (the University of Michigan Multiprogramming
>System), the substrate for MTS. UMMPS may have been originally based
>on something from Lincoln Labs.

There was a LLMPS, from Lincohn Laboratory in Cambridge Mass. My third
job was at The Analytic Sciences Corp (TASC, 74-78) and my manager was
Joel Winnet, who had been at LL during the interesting times. He said
he helped to write LLMPS and then passed it on to other sites
including UM. He said they changed and enhanced it sufficiently to
call it UMMPS, but the origin was LL work. I remember seeing a Share
library listing (not the CBT or VMSHARE tapes, something much earlier)
in the middle 1980s and LLMPS was still oderable.)

Following is from a short google search...

http://www.itd.umich.edu/~doc/Digest/0596/feat02.html
>The timesharing experiment began as a "half-page of code on the kitchen table." By combining this
>new code with a version of a small multi-programming system (LLMPS) from MIT Lincoln Laboratories--which
>was modified and became the U-M Multi-Programming System (UMMPS)--MTS architects Mike Alexander and
>Don Boettner were able to create a prototype timesharing system.

I can't remember whether it was Rasmusan or Winnet... I attned several
talks by R. and had quite a few office chats with W. One of them
described LL struggling with early TSS/360 [IPL time = MBTF = 45
minutes] while running MVT and experimenting with LLMPS. As mentioned,
Cambridge SC had 8 hours a week (Sunday mid to Monday 8am) and someone
from LL in early watched "whatever it was" rebooting in a few minutes.
A couple weeks later, IBM was told to remove the 67 unless....

All the above is second hand, I wasn't there...

john

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Dec 28, 2001, 8:42:40 PM12/28/01

to

John Alvord <ja...@mbay.net> writes:
> There was a LLMPS, from Lincohn Laboratory in Cambridge Mass. My third
> job was at The Analytic Sciences Corp (TASC, 74-78) and my manager was
> Joel Winnet, who had been at LL during the interesting times. He said
> he helped to write LLMPS and then passed it on to other sites
> including UM. He said they changed and enhanced it sufficiently to
> call it UMMPS, but the origin was LL work. I remember seeing a Share
> library listing (not the CBT or VMSHARE tapes, something much earlier)
> in the middle 1980s and LLMPS was still oderable.)

i still have share LLMPS manual 360D-5.1-004; some quotes:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#0