Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Last Voyager engineer retires, NASA needs Fortran/Algol pros
322 views
Skip to first unread message
RS Wood
Oct 31, 2015, 1:40:45 PM10/31/15
to
For me the most interesting thing is the comment that the younger tech
staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
Pathetic.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/30/has_voyager_1_escaped_the_sun_yet_yes_but_also_no_say_boffins/
//--clip
Boffins have debated whether Voyager 1 has left the Solar System for a
few years now, after NASAdeclared it could no longer detect direct
evidence of the solar wind. The absence of the stream of particles
hurtling out from the sun was taken as evidence Voyager 1 had left the
solar system and entered the interstellar medium. But after revisiting
Voyager data, the new paper suggests some odd magnetic field readings
mean the probe is passing through “a more distorted magnetic field just
outside the heliopause, which is the boundary between the solar wind
and the interstellar medium.”
/--clip
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/31/brush_up_on_your_fortran/
//--clip
In an interview with Popular Mechanics, the manager of NASA's Voyager
program Suzanne Dodd said the retirement of the last original crew
member has left the space agency with a shortage of people capable of
communicating with the 40-year-old craft.
Launched in 1977, the two Voyager crafts rely on mid-70s hardware
powered by purpose-built General Electric interrupt processors. After
38 years in space, the two probes are currently on the outer fringes of
the Sun's influence, heading into interstellar space.
Though most of the instruments onboard the two probes have been
deactivated, both are still able to maintain contact with Earth and
will continue to do so into the 2020's, until their onboard
radioisotope thermoelectric generators no longer function.
In the meantime, NASA needs engineers capable of interacting with the
1970s-era technology, a skillset that includes knowledge of both
Fortran and assembly as well as the ability to command a machine with
just around 68KB of total memory.
"Although, some people can program in an assembly language and
understand the intricacy of the spacecraft, most younger people can't
or really don't want to," Dodd was quoted as saying.
With high-level languages now the standard for developers, knowing how
to fluently code in assembly has become a specialized skill, as has
fluency in dated languages such as Fortran. While obscure, the skillset
is potentially lucrative. Along with NASA's aging fleet of spacecraft,
many businesses still rely on ancient languages such as Fortran or
COBOL for specialized tasks and critical infrastructure. ®
//--clip
staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
Pathetic.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/30/has_voyager_1_escaped_the_sun_yet_yes_but_also_no_say_boffins/
//--clip
Boffins have debated whether Voyager 1 has left the Solar System for a
few years now, after NASAdeclared it could no longer detect direct
evidence of the solar wind. The absence of the stream of particles
hurtling out from the sun was taken as evidence Voyager 1 had left the
solar system and entered the interstellar medium. But after revisiting
Voyager data, the new paper suggests some odd magnetic field readings
mean the probe is passing through “a more distorted magnetic field just
outside the heliopause, which is the boundary between the solar wind
and the interstellar medium.”
/--clip
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/31/brush_up_on_your_fortran/
//--clip
In an interview with Popular Mechanics, the manager of NASA's Voyager
program Suzanne Dodd said the retirement of the last original crew
member has left the space agency with a shortage of people capable of
communicating with the 40-year-old craft.
Launched in 1977, the two Voyager crafts rely on mid-70s hardware
powered by purpose-built General Electric interrupt processors. After
38 years in space, the two probes are currently on the outer fringes of
the Sun's influence, heading into interstellar space.
Though most of the instruments onboard the two probes have been
deactivated, both are still able to maintain contact with Earth and
will continue to do so into the 2020's, until their onboard
radioisotope thermoelectric generators no longer function.
In the meantime, NASA needs engineers capable of interacting with the
1970s-era technology, a skillset that includes knowledge of both
Fortran and assembly as well as the ability to command a machine with
just around 68KB of total memory.
"Although, some people can program in an assembly language and
understand the intricacy of the spacecraft, most younger people can't
or really don't want to," Dodd was quoted as saying.
With high-level languages now the standard for developers, knowing how
to fluently code in assembly has become a specialized skill, as has
fluency in dated languages such as Fortran. While obscure, the skillset
is potentially lucrative. Along with NASA's aging fleet of spacecraft,
many businesses still rely on ancient languages such as Fortran or
COBOL for specialized tasks and critical infrastructure. ®
//--clip
Peter Flass
Oct 31, 2015, 4:09:36 PM10/31/15
to
RS Wood <r...@therandymon.com> wrote:
> For me the most interesting thing is the comment that the younger tech
> staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
> Pathetic.
>
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/30/has_voyager_1_escaped_the_sun_yet_yes_but_also_no_say_boffins/
>
>
> //--clip
> Boffins have debated whether Voyager 1 has left the Solar System for a
> few years now, after NASAdeclared it could no longer detect direct
> evidence of the solar wind. The absence of the stream of particles
> hurtling out from the sun was taken as evidence Voyager 1 had left the
> solar system and entered the interstellar medium. But after revisiting
> Voyager data, the new paper suggests some odd magnetic field readings
> mean the probe is passing through “a more distorted magnetic field just
> outside the heliopause, which is the boundary between the solar wind
> and the interstellar medium.”
> /--clip
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/31/brush_up_on_your_fortran/
>
> //--clip
> In an interview with Popular Mechanics, the manager of NASA's Voyager
> program Suzanne Dodd said the retirement of the last original crew
> member has left the space agency with a shortage of people capable of
> communicating with the 40-year-old craft.
I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that NASA
> For me the most interesting thing is the comment that the younger tech
> staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
> Pathetic.
>
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/30/has_voyager_1_escaped_the_sun_yet_yes_but_also_no_say_boffins/
>
>
> //--clip
> Boffins have debated whether Voyager 1 has left the Solar System for a
> few years now, after NASAdeclared it could no longer detect direct
> evidence of the solar wind. The absence of the stream of particles
> hurtling out from the sun was taken as evidence Voyager 1 had left the
> solar system and entered the interstellar medium. But after revisiting
> Voyager data, the new paper suggests some odd magnetic field readings
> mean the probe is passing through “a more distorted magnetic field just
> outside the heliopause, which is the boundary between the solar wind
> and the interstellar medium.”
> /--clip
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/31/brush_up_on_your_fortran/
>
> //--clip
> In an interview with Popular Mechanics, the manager of NASA's Voyager
> program Suzanne Dodd said the retirement of the last original crew
> member has left the space agency with a shortage of people capable of
> communicating with the 40-year-old craft.
is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience with this
specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they want someone
who can step into a position with no learning period.
> Launched in 1977, the two Voyager crafts rely on mid-70s hardware
> powered by purpose-built General Electric interrupt processors. After
> 38 years in space, the two probes are currently on the outer fringes of
> the Sun's influence, heading into interstellar space.
> Though most of the instruments onboard the two probes have been
> deactivated, both are still able to maintain contact with Earth and
> will continue to do so into the 2020's, until their onboard
> radioisotope thermoelectric generators no longer function.
> In the meantime, NASA needs engineers capable of interacting with the
> 1970s-era technology, a skillset that includes knowledge of both
> Fortran and assembly as well as the ability to command a machine with
> just around 68KB of total memory.
> "Although, some people can program in an assembly language and
> understand the intricacy of the spacecraft, most younger people can't
> or really don't want to," Dodd was quoted as saying.
> With high-level languages now the standard for developers, knowing how
> to fluently code in assembly has become a specialized skill, as has
> fluency in dated languages such as Fortran. While obscure, the skillset
> is potentially lucrative. Along with NASA's aging fleet of spacecraft,
> many businesses still rely on ancient languages such as Fortran or
> COBOL for specialized tasks and critical infrastructure. ®
> //--clip
>
>
Pete
Charles Richmond
Oct 31, 2015, 4:26:54 PM10/31/15
to
"RS Wood" <r...@therandymon.com> wrote in message
news:d9kcor...@mid.individual.net...
How does knowing FORTRAN or ALGOL help with that???
Most here on <a.f.c.> can do FORTRAN IV or FORTRAN 77 coding. And ALGOL is
*not* so different from Pascal. So where's the problem???
Perhaps NASA and JPL should consider a paradigm shift. Turn the Voyager
missions into "open source" projects. Let anyone join in and submit
changes. Have two or three people at NASA that manage the changes actually
made to the spacecraft. Release executable code for a Voyager spacecraft
emulator so the contributors will have a way to test changes. Something
along the lines of the way that the Linux kernal is managed...
Heck, the way that the U.S. government disrespects NASA, you may find that
NASA has to go to "crowdsourcing" to support its projects!!! :-)
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
news:d9kcor...@mid.individual.net...
> For me the most interesting thing is the comment that the younger tech
> staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
> Pathetic.
>
Everything is programmed in assembly language on the two Voyager spacreafts.
> staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
> Pathetic.
>
How does knowing FORTRAN or ALGOL help with that???
Most here on <a.f.c.> can do FORTRAN IV or FORTRAN 77 coding. And ALGOL is
*not* so different from Pascal. So where's the problem???
Perhaps NASA and JPL should consider a paradigm shift. Turn the Voyager
missions into "open source" projects. Let anyone join in and submit
changes. Have two or three people at NASA that manage the changes actually
made to the spacecraft. Release executable code for a Voyager spacecraft
emulator so the contributors will have a way to test changes. Something
along the lines of the way that the Linux kernal is managed...
Heck, the way that the U.S. government disrespects NASA, you may find that
NASA has to go to "crowdsourcing" to support its projects!!! :-)
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Howard S Shubs
Oct 31, 2015, 4:53:29 PM10/31/15
to
On 2015-10-31, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that NASA
> is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience with this
> specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they want someone
> who can step into a position with no learning period.
What I find amusing is that, as an experienced Fortran programmer on
> I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that NASA
> is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience with this
> specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they want someone
> who can step into a position with no learning period.
things from IBM 1130 and newer, I've never heard of these positions.
I've just tried finding them on the NASA@Careers site, with no luck.
Perhaps no one is applying because they CAN'T FIND THE DAMN JOBS. But
that'd be too obvious.
artie
Oct 31, 2015, 5:12:21 PM10/31/15
to
In article <slrnn3aai7...@foxtrot.local>, Howard S Shubs
I'll sing in that chorus -- one of my first programming jobs (some
decades ago) was converting a specialized FORTRAN scientific library
into optimized assembly code (on a PDP-10), resulting in many happy
users of that library.
I also did FORTRAN on the IBM 1130, Univac 1108 (two zeroes!), many 360
systems, SDS Sigma 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 560, big CDC and Cray boxes.
I'm not dead yet, and I'd love a job doing that kind of thing!
--
decades ago) was converting a specialized FORTRAN scientific library
into optimized assembly code (on a PDP-10), resulting in many happy
users of that library.
I also did FORTRAN on the IBM 1130, Univac 1108 (two zeroes!), many 360
systems, SDS Sigma 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 560, big CDC and Cray boxes.
I'm not dead yet, and I'd love a job doing that kind of thing!
--
Rich
Oct 31, 2015, 6:29:14 PM10/31/15
to
In comp.misc Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> RS Wood <r...@therandymon.com> wrote:
> > For me the most interesting thing is the comment that the younger tech
> > staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
> > Pathetic.
> >
> >
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/30/has_voyager_1_escaped_the_sun_yet_yes_but_also_no_say_boffins/
> >
> >
> > //--clip
> > Boffins have debated whether Voyager 1 has left the Solar System
> > for a few years now, after NASAdeclared it could no longer detect
> > direct evidence of the solar wind. The absence of the stream of
> > particles hurtling out from the sun was taken as evidence Voyager 1
> > had left the solar system and entered the interstellar medium. But
> > after revisiting Voyager data, the new paper suggests some odd
> > magnetic field readings mean the probe is passing through ?a more
> RS Wood <r...@therandymon.com> wrote:
> > For me the most interesting thing is the comment that the younger tech
> > staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
> > Pathetic.
> >
> >
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/30/has_voyager_1_escaped_the_sun_yet_yes_but_also_no_say_boffins/
> >
> >
> > //--clip
> > Boffins have debated whether Voyager 1 has left the Solar System
> > for a few years now, after NASAdeclared it could no longer detect
> > direct evidence of the solar wind. The absence of the stream of
> > particles hurtling out from the sun was taken as evidence Voyager 1
> > had left the solar system and entered the interstellar medium. But
> > after revisiting Voyager data, the new paper suggests some odd
> > distorted magnetic field just outside the heliopause, which is the
> > boundary between the solar wind and the interstellar medium.?
> > /--clip
> >
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/31/brush_up_on_your_fortran/
> >
> > //--clip
> > In an interview with Popular Mechanics, the manager of NASA's
> > Voyager program Suzanne Dodd said the retirement of the last
> > original crew member has left the space agency with a shortage of
> > people capable of communicating with the 40-year-old craft.
> I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that
> NASA is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience
> with this specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they
> want someone who can step into a position with no learning period.
This is most likely the exact reason. The new standard of "the new
> >
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/31/brush_up_on_your_fortran/
> >
> > //--clip
> > In an interview with Popular Mechanics, the manager of NASA's
> > Voyager program Suzanne Dodd said the retirement of the last
> > original crew member has left the space agency with a shortage of
> > people capable of communicating with the 40-year-old craft.
> I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that
> NASA is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience
> with this specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they
> want someone who can step into a position with no learning period.
hire must come fully trained for _our_ particular stuff". How
companies that expect this manage to hire anyone at all is amazing.
Michael Black
Oct 31, 2015, 8:45:50 PM10/31/15
to
On Sat, 31 Oct 2015, Hils wrote:
> On 31/10/15 20:26, Charles Richmond wrote:
>> "RS Wood" <r...@therandymon.com> wrote in message
>> news:d9kcor...@mid.individual.net...
>>> For me the most interesting thing is the comment that the younger tech
>>> staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
>>> Pathetic.
>>>
>>
>> Everything is programmed in assembly language on the two Voyager
>> spacreafts. How does knowing FORTRAN or ALGOL help with that???
>>
>> Most here on <a.f.c.> can do FORTRAN IV or FORTRAN 77 coding. And ALGOL
>> is *not* so different from Pascal. So where's the problem???
>>
>> Perhaps NASA and JPL should consider a paradigm shift. Turn the Voyager
>> missions into "open source" projects. Let anyone join in and submit
>> changes. Have two or three people at NASA that manage the changes
>> actually made to the spacecraft. Release executable code for a Voyager
>> spacecraft emulator so the contributors will have a way to test
>> changes. Something along the lines of the way that the Linux kernal is
>> managed...
>
> That's a great idea, and also consistent with "citizen science".
>
Aren't those called "Hackathons"?
Michael
> On 31/10/15 20:26, Charles Richmond wrote:
>> "RS Wood" <r...@therandymon.com> wrote in message
>> news:d9kcor...@mid.individual.net...
>>> For me the most interesting thing is the comment that the younger tech
>>> staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
>>> Pathetic.
>>>
>>
>> Everything is programmed in assembly language on the two Voyager
>> spacreafts. How does knowing FORTRAN or ALGOL help with that???
>>
>> Most here on <a.f.c.> can do FORTRAN IV or FORTRAN 77 coding. And ALGOL
>> is *not* so different from Pascal. So where's the problem???
>>
>> Perhaps NASA and JPL should consider a paradigm shift. Turn the Voyager
>> missions into "open source" projects. Let anyone join in and submit
>> changes. Have two or three people at NASA that manage the changes
>> actually made to the spacecraft. Release executable code for a Voyager
>> spacecraft emulator so the contributors will have a way to test
>> changes. Something along the lines of the way that the Linux kernal is
>> managed...
>
>
>> Heck, the way that the U.S. government disrespects NASA, you may find
>> that NASA has to go to "crowdsourcing" to support its projects!!! :-)
>
> Crowd-coding?
>> Heck, the way that the U.S. government disrespects NASA, you may find
>> that NASA has to go to "crowdsourcing" to support its projects!!! :-)
>
>
Aren't those called "Hackathons"?
Michael
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Oct 31, 2015, 11:28:33 PM10/31/15
to
On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 4:09:36 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
> I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that NASA
> is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience with this
> specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they want someone
> who can step into a position with no learning period.
I suspect the article misquoted NASA.
> I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that NASA
> is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience with this
> specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they want someone
> who can step into a position with no learning period.
Howard S Shubs
Nov 1, 2015, 12:37:09 AM11/1/15
to
company looking for MACRO-11 programmers. I don't understand how that
company has survived this long. I figure someone retired. They're
supposedly porting to something else, but at the same time, they're
generating NEW MACRO-11 code?!?
Quadibloc
Nov 1, 2015, 2:50:29 AM11/1/15
to
On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 11:40:45 AM UTC-6, RS Wood wrote:
> For me the most interesting thing is the comment that the younger tech
> staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
> Pathetic.
No, they want to gain experience in languages such as C#, because they know
> For me the most interesting thing is the comment that the younger tech
> staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
> Pathetic.
having *that* on their resumes is going to be much more helpful in finding jobs
in the future than experience in FORTRAN.
One would think that programming experience on Voyager *would* kind of trump
that, but who knows.
I have experience in Pascal, but not ALGOL. However, I definitely have a lot of
FORTRAN IV experience. Perhaps I should try to find out about these
opportunities. However, I'm close to retirement age myself.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Nov 1, 2015, 3:02:11 AM11/1/15
to
On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 2:53:29 PM UTC-6, Howard S Shubs wrote:
> What I find amusing is that, as an experienced Fortran programmer on
> things from IBM 1130 and newer, I've never heard of these positions.
> I've just tried finding them on the NASA@Careers site, with no luck.
> Perhaps no one is applying because they CAN'T FIND THE DAMN JOBS. But
> that'd be too obvious.
The original article, in Popular Mechanics, is next to an article about the
> What I find amusing is that, as an experienced Fortran programmer on
> things from IBM 1130 and newer, I've never heard of these positions.
> I've just tried finding them on the NASA@Careers site, with no luck.
> Perhaps no one is applying because they CAN'T FIND THE DAMN JOBS. But
> that'd be too obvious.
top-secret "Manned Orbiting Laboratory". Hmm. I remember hearing about it at
the time. Some of its details may have been top-secret, but its existence was
public.
So a few things could be garbled in the article. Anyhow, they're not looking
for a bushy-tailed coder out of college. They want a highly experienced
engineer, just a bit younger than the ones who are retiring. (And a bit younger
than I am as well.) Because they're looking for a chief engineer on the project.
So instead of posting an ad, they're probably hunting directly for qualified
candidates. The article notes that the job involves a lot more than coding. One
of their main goals is to go through the original design documentation to find
out just what the safety margins were. Because respecting them was important at
the start of the mission - to make sure it went off without a hitch. Now,
what's left is gravy, and everything the Voyager probe can do is needed to let
it provide useful results given its age. So the safety margins are going to be
stripped away... carefully.
I suspect the people they want have highly-paid jobs in private industry, but
things can happen, and such people can end up laid off when companies go bust.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Nov 1, 2015, 3:25:47 AM11/1/15
to
On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 11:40:45 AM UTC-6, RS Wood wrote:
> Launched in 1977, the two Voyager crafts rely on mid-70s hardware
> powered by purpose-built General Electric interrupt processors.
The details are not quite the same as that.
> powered by purpose-built General Electric interrupt processors.
http://www.cpushack.com/space-craft-cpu.html
gives an overview; there are three different computers on board Voyager. More detail is present here:
http://history.nasa.gov/computers/Ch6-2.html
Basically, the Command and Control Subsystem used an 18-bit General Electric
processor; the Attitude Control subsystem used a version of that with a
supplement provided by another manufacturer, and the Flight Data System used
another processor entirely.
But I haven't yet found programming manuals for any of them, although I've only begun looking.
John Savard
Howard S Shubs
Nov 1, 2015, 3:52:05 AM11/1/15
to
On 2015-11-01, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> I have experience in Pascal, but not ALGOL. However, I definitely have a lot of
> FORTRAN IV experience. Perhaps I should try to find out about these
> opportunities. However, I'm close to retirement age myself.
In that case, the jobs would be perfect for you. You don't have to
> I have experience in Pascal, but not ALGOL. However, I definitely have a lot of
> FORTRAN IV experience. Perhaps I should try to find out about these
> opportunities. However, I'm close to retirement age myself.
concern yourself about future positions.
Howard S Shubs
Nov 1, 2015, 4:02:22 AM11/1/15
to
On 2015-11-01, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 2:53:29 PM UTC-6, Howard S Shubs wrote:
>
>> What I find amusing is that, as an experienced Fortran programmer on
>> things from IBM 1130 and newer, I've never heard of these positions.
>> I've just tried finding them on the NASA@Careers site, with no luck.
>> Perhaps no one is applying because they CAN'T FIND THE DAMN JOBS. But
>> that'd be too obvious.
>
> The original article, in Popular Mechanics, is next to an article about the
> top-secret "Manned Orbiting Laboratory". Hmm. I remember hearing about it at
> the time. Some of its details may have been top-secret, but its existence was
> public.
>
> So a few things could be garbled in the article. Anyhow, they're not looking
> for a bushy-tailed coder out of college. They want a highly experienced
> engineer, just a bit younger than the ones who are retiring. (And a bit younger
> than I am as well.) Because they're looking for a chief engineer on the project.
Sure. I'm middle-aged, with lots of Fortran (and C) programming
>
>> What I find amusing is that, as an experienced Fortran programmer on
>> things from IBM 1130 and newer, I've never heard of these positions.
>> I've just tried finding them on the NASA@Careers site, with no luck.
>> Perhaps no one is applying because they CAN'T FIND THE DAMN JOBS. But
>> that'd be too obvious.
>
> The original article, in Popular Mechanics, is next to an article about the
> top-secret "Manned Orbiting Laboratory". Hmm. I remember hearing about it at
> the time. Some of its details may have been top-secret, but its existence was
> public.
>
> So a few things could be garbled in the article. Anyhow, they're not looking
> for a bushy-tailed coder out of college. They want a highly experienced
> engineer, just a bit younger than the ones who are retiring. (And a bit younger
> than I am as well.) Because they're looking for a chief engineer on the project.
experience. I'd like to try playing with such unique hardware. I expect
it's challenging to get real time stuff right, and this is extra
challenging because you better not screw it up or that's the end of the
mission. No one wants THAT ("I lost the Voyager I spacecraft") on their
resume.
I'd just want to work remotely, as Florida and Texas hold no attraction
for me. But then, considering how far away the spacecraft are, a few
thousand miles displacement from the work site shouldn't be noticable.
> So instead of posting an ad, they're probably hunting directly for qualified
> candidates. The article notes that the job involves a lot more than coding. One
> of their main goals is to go through the original design documentation to find
> out just what the safety margins were. Because respecting them was important at
> the start of the mission - to make sure it went off without a hitch. Now,
> what's left is gravy, and everything the Voyager probe can do is needed to let
> it provide useful results given its age. So the safety margins are going to be
> stripped away... carefully.
hall and hit the "reset" button. Use too much power, and... what
happens? Don't shut down instruments when there's not enough power to
run them, and you trip a circuit breaker? How do you reset it?? I
expect they've got a good simulator.
Greymaus
Nov 1, 2015, 6:58:05 AM11/1/15
to
On 2015-10-31, Rich <ri...@example.invalid> wrote:
particular person, but we have to advertise"
--
greymaus
.
.
...
Nyssa
Nov 1, 2015, 10:44:22 AM11/1/15
to
Of course, if NASA went about hiring replacements for their
retired engineers/programmers they would probably fall into
the same pattern that I have encountered all too many times
when applying for other bit fiddler jobs as in....
"Well, you've got the languages and the experience, but it's
not specifically on the machines/os/environment we're using
and your experience isn't in our industry, so it doesn't count."
My FORTRAN days were spent doing stuff for air traffic control
simulators and trainers, weather forecasting systems, and
logistics, so I'd be filtered out of the resume pile by some
HR word-matching algorithm and never have a chance.
That or something like "yeah, you've got the languages, etc.,
but your experience in them is *recent*" and then fall through
the holes again.
I'm sure most of the rest of us old-timers with the right
languages in our back pockets would be told something similar
even if these phantom jobs did surface somewhere on the
NASA site.
BTW anyone know where these phantom jobs are supposed to be
located?
Nyssa, who has seen this play act out many times in her
professional past
Nyssa
Nov 1, 2015, 10:45:37 AM11/1/15
to
Nyssa
Nov 1, 2015, 10:46:26 AM11/1/15
to
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Nov 1, 2015, 3:01:23 PM11/1/15
to
On Sunday, November 1, 2015 at 2:50:29 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> No, they want to gain experience in languages such as C#, because they know
> having *that* on their resumes is going to be much more helpful in finding jobs
> in the future than experience in FORTRAN.
> One would think that programming experience on Voyager *would* kind of trump
> that, but who knows.
In reading the various replies in this thread, I am convinced we here don't know all the facts about the openings, requirements, or recuriting efforts.
> No, they want to gain experience in languages such as C#, because they know
> having *that* on their resumes is going to be much more helpful in finding jobs
> in the future than experience in FORTRAN.
> One would think that programming experience on Voyager *would* kind of trump
> that, but who knows.
As to what young people want on their resume to make a good impression
for fugure jobs, I don't know how fussy H/R types or I.T. managers are
today. FWIW, a manager did tell me there significant were variations
in Visual BASIC, and knowing the wrong variant was a disqualifier.
Another manager told me being too far behind in Oracle (e.g. working
in Oracle 9 instead of the current version) was a disqualifier.
Whether these managers were being too picky I can't say, but that was
their expectations.
However, I do know years ago they were very fussy. For instance,
years ago many IBM shops would not consider someone with non-IBM
(e.g. Univac, GE, etc) experience. Indeed, many IBM 360-OS shops
would not consider someone with 360-DOS experience. Other
installations demanded only applicants experienced in their particular
industry (manufacturing seemed to be very picky.)
Jorgen Grahn
Nov 1, 2015, 3:08:48 PM11/1/15
to
On Sun, 2015-11-01, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 11:40:45 AM UTC-6, RS Wood wrote:
>> For me the most interesting thing is the comment that the younger tech
>> staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
>> Pathetic.
>
> No, they want to gain experience in languages such as C#, because
> they know having *that* on their resumes is going to be much more
> helpful in finding jobs in the future than experience in FORTRAN.
Or if they're like me, they're already skilled at one thing, don't
> On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 11:40:45 AM UTC-6, RS Wood wrote:
>> For me the most interesting thing is the comment that the younger tech
>> staff don't *want* to learn the languages this project now requires.
>> Pathetic.
>
> No, they want to gain experience in languages such as C#, because
> they know having *that* on their resumes is going to be much more
> helpful in finding jobs in the future than experience in FORTRAN.
want to step back to be mediocre at another. It seems to me it takes
something like a decade to become really good at something -- and it's
not until you look back that you can see this.
> One would think that programming experience on Voyager *would* kind
> of trump that, but who knows.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Roger Blake
Nov 1, 2015, 5:47:09 PM11/1/15
to
On 2015-11-01, Howard S Shubs <how...@shubs.net> wrote:
> I saw one a month or two ago for a company in LA or San Diego for a
> company looking for MACRO-11 programmers. I don't understand how that
> company has survived this long. I figure someone retired. They're
> supposedly porting to something else, but at the same time, they're
> generating NEW MACRO-11 code?!?
A lifetime ago I used to practically generate MACRO-11 code in my sleep.
> I saw one a month or two ago for a company in LA or San Diego for a
> company looking for MACRO-11 programmers. I don't understand how that
> company has survived this long. I figure someone retired. They're
> supposedly porting to something else, but at the same time, they're
> generating NEW MACRO-11 code?!?
I'm surprised there's still a demand for that sort of thing, but really have
no wish to go back to it at this point.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)
NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
gareth
Nov 1, 2015, 6:53:10 PM11/1/15
to
<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message
news:4a2f3161-197b-49ca...@googlegroups.com...
computer from
the other, then anybody would take you on for any computing job, but, as you
say,
nowadays you've to have an exact match of language, operating system
and application to even be considered.
Perhaps it is an indication of the poor level of training these days, in
that very few
people know the low-level stuff (the real computer) and you're stymied by
the
restricted knowledge of the interviewer?
news:4a2f3161-197b-49ca...@googlegroups.com...
>
> However, I do know years ago they were very fussy. For instance,
> years ago many IBM shops would not consider someone with non-IBM
> (e.g. Univac, GE, etc) experience. Indeed, many IBM 360-OS shops
> would not consider someone with 360-DOS experience. Other
> installations demanded only applicants experienced in their particular
> industry (manufacturing seemed to be very picky.)
Which is interesting because in the early 1970s, if you knew one end of a
> However, I do know years ago they were very fussy. For instance,
> years ago many IBM shops would not consider someone with non-IBM
> (e.g. Univac, GE, etc) experience. Indeed, many IBM 360-OS shops
> would not consider someone with 360-DOS experience. Other
> installations demanded only applicants experienced in their particular
> industry (manufacturing seemed to be very picky.)
computer from
the other, then anybody would take you on for any computing job, but, as you
say,
nowadays you've to have an exact match of language, operating system
and application to even be considered.
Perhaps it is an indication of the poor level of training these days, in
that very few
people know the low-level stuff (the real computer) and you're stymied by
the
restricted knowledge of the interviewer?
gareth
Nov 1, 2015, 6:54:30 PM11/1/15
to
"Roger Blake" <rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote in message
news:2015110...@news.eternal-september.org...
is somewhat irrelevant following a competent design.
news:2015110...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 2015-11-01, Howard S Shubs <how...@shubs.net> wrote:
>> I saw one a month or two ago for a company in LA or San Diego for a
>> company looking for MACRO-11 programmers. I don't understand how that
>> company has survived this long. I figure someone retired. They're
>> supposedly porting to something else, but at the same time, they're
>> generating NEW MACRO-11 code?!?
>
> A lifetime ago I used to practically generate MACRO-11 code in my sleep.
> I'm surprised there's still a demand for that sort of thing, but really
> have
> no wish to go back to it at this point.
I don't see why not, because the language in which a project is coded
>> I saw one a month or two ago for a company in LA or San Diego for a
>> company looking for MACRO-11 programmers. I don't understand how that
>> company has survived this long. I figure someone retired. They're
>> supposedly porting to something else, but at the same time, they're
>> generating NEW MACRO-11 code?!?
>
> A lifetime ago I used to practically generate MACRO-11 code in my sleep.
> I'm surprised there's still a demand for that sort of thing, but really
> have
> no wish to go back to it at this point.
is somewhat irrelevant following a competent design.
78lp
Nov 1, 2015, 11:32:35 PM11/1/15
to
"gareth" <no....@thank.you.invalid> wrote in message
news:n168h0$p6r$1...@dont-email.me...
> <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message
> news:4a2f3161-197b-49ca...@googlegroups.com...
>>
>> However, I do know years ago they were very fussy. For instance,
>> years ago many IBM shops would not consider someone with non-IBM
>> (e.g. Univac, GE, etc) experience. Indeed, many IBM 360-OS shops
>> would not consider someone with 360-DOS experience. Other
>> installations demanded only applicants experienced in their particular
>> industry (manufacturing seemed to be very picky.)
>
> Which is interesting because in the early 1970s, if you knew one end of a
> computer from
> the other, then anybody would take you on for any computing job,
Because the industry was very short of those at that time.
> news:4a2f3161-197b-49ca...@googlegroups.com...
>>
>> However, I do know years ago they were very fussy. For instance,
>> years ago many IBM shops would not consider someone with non-IBM
>> (e.g. Univac, GE, etc) experience. Indeed, many IBM 360-OS shops
>> would not consider someone with 360-DOS experience. Other
>> installations demanded only applicants experienced in their particular
>> industry (manufacturing seemed to be very picky.)
>
> Which is interesting because in the early 1970s, if you knew one end of a
> computer from
> the other, then anybody would take you on for any computing job,
> but, as you say, nowadays you've to have an exact match of language,
> operating system and application to even be considered.
that to weed out the number of applicants to sensible numbers.
> Perhaps it is an indication of the poor level of training these days, in
> that very few
> people know the low-level stuff (the real computer) and you're stymied by
> the
> restricted knowledge of the interviewer?
Theo Markettos
Nov 2, 2015, 6:05:12 AM11/2/15
to
In comp.misc Charles Richmond <nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> Perhaps NASA and JPL should consider a paradigm shift. Turn the Voyager
> missions into "open source" projects. Let anyone join in and submit
> changes. Have two or three people at NASA that manage the changes actually
> made to the spacecraft. Release executable code for a Voyager spacecraft
> emulator so the contributors will have a way to test changes. Something
> along the lines of the way that the Linux kernal is managed...
From what I read, the computers are custom, and what they are isn't properly
> Perhaps NASA and JPL should consider a paradigm shift. Turn the Voyager
> missions into "open source" projects. Let anyone join in and submit
> changes. Have two or three people at NASA that manage the changes actually
> made to the spacecraft. Release executable code for a Voyager spacecraft
> emulator so the contributors will have a way to test changes. Something
> along the lines of the way that the Linux kernal is managed...
written down. Or was, but documentation has been lost. And it's not just
about the computers, but how they interact with the hardware systems and the
existing loaded software. That means that there is no emulator, and the
only example you could take apart to see how it works is a rather long way
away.
So it seems to be more of a reverse engineering job, with the caveat that
finding out whether you were right is a very high risk affair. I suspect
that if there was an accurate 'Voyager spacecraft emulator' then they would
be home and dry, but the task is more 'read several million pages of
documentation to work out what it does, and hope you aren't missing any'.
But still, crowdsourcing the research might be a good idea. Though it may
be the case that a holistic view is required, especially if the subsystems
don't decompose neatly.
Theo
jmfbahciv
Nov 2, 2015, 8:18:31 AM11/2/15
to
lanuguage the software runs on.
/BAH
Scott Lurndal
Nov 2, 2015, 9:29:41 AM11/2/15
to
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
Hand the first: A job at Google/Twitter/FB/LI using modern technology and getting
paid beaucoup bux.
Hand the second: A job at NASA working with dead technology and getting
paid close to zilch.
Seems an easy choice.
>RS Wood <r...@therandymon.com> wrote:
>> In an interview with Popular Mechanics, the manager of NASA's Voyager
>> program Suzanne Dodd said the retirement of the last original crew
>> member has left the space agency with a shortage of people capable of
>> communicating with the 40-year-old craft.
>
>I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that NASA
>is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience with this
>specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they want someone
>who can step into a position with no learning period.
Let's see:
>> In an interview with Popular Mechanics, the manager of NASA's Voyager
>> program Suzanne Dodd said the retirement of the last original crew
>> member has left the space agency with a shortage of people capable of
>> communicating with the 40-year-old craft.
>
>I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that NASA
>is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience with this
>specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they want someone
>who can step into a position with no learning period.
Hand the first: A job at Google/Twitter/FB/LI using modern technology and getting
paid beaucoup bux.
Hand the second: A job at NASA working with dead technology and getting
paid close to zilch.
Seems an easy choice.
Osmium
Nov 2, 2015, 10:06:29 AM11/2/15
to
"Scott Lurndal" wrote:
> Let's see:
>
> Hand the first: A job at Google/Twitter/FB/LI using modern technology
> and getting
> paid beaucoup bux.
>
> Hand the second: A job at NASA working with dead technology and getting
> paid close to zilch.
>
> Seems an easy choice.
I have the feeling that anyone over 30 years old automatically has about 10
> Let's see:
>
> Hand the first: A job at Google/Twitter/FB/LI using modern technology
> and getting
> paid beaucoup bux.
>
> Hand the second: A job at NASA working with dead technology and getting
> paid close to zilch.
>
> Seems an easy choice.
strikes against him on your first list. So any one person isn't given the
choice you imply.
BTW, what is LI?
D. Aaron Sawyer
Nov 2, 2015, 10:10:24 AM11/2/15
to
https://www.linkedin.com/
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Nov 2, 2015, 10:24:50 AM11/2/15
to
On Sunday, November 1, 2015 at 6:53:10 PM UTC-5, gareth wrote:
> <hancock4@ wrote
rather selective, as described in the examples.
--many IBM mainframe sites were prejudiced against those with
non-IBM experience.
--many IBM mainframe 'OS' sites were prejudiced against those without
OS experience, even those with DOS experience.
--Many sites wanted people with experience in their industry, that
is, an industrial manfacturing firm wanted someone who worked in
manufacturing before.
Now, it needs to be said that in data processing (like anywhere else),
there was a pecking order--high pay sites and low pay sites.
Various factors determined the salaries at a site. But the sites that
were well paid tended to be nicer, more prestigious places to work in.
For instance, an Ivy League college would be more prestigious than a
local junior college. A Fortune 50 plant would be more prestiguous
than a mom 'n pop factory.
Whether the more prestiguous organizations were more desirable to
work in is another story for another time.
Anyway, the fancy sites could afford to offer better pay, and as such,
be more selective with their applicants.
It also should be noted that prestige level varied over time due to
changing fortunes. A one-time hot company--like General Motors--
could fall way down, and a backwater outfit could climb way up.
> <hancock4@ wrote
> > However, I do know years ago they were very fussy. For instance,
> > years ago many IBM shops would not consider someone with non-IBM
> > (e.g. Univac, GE, etc) experience. Indeed, many IBM 360-OS shops
> > would not consider someone with 360-DOS experience. Other
> > installations demanded only applicants experienced in their particular
> > industry (manufacturing seemed to be very picky.)
>
> Which is interesting because in the early 1970s, if you knew one end of a
> computer from
> the other, then anybody would take you on for any computing job, but, as you
> say,
> nowadays you've to have an exact match of language, operating system
> and application to even be considered.
No, in the early 1970s, a lot of business application employers were
> > years ago many IBM shops would not consider someone with non-IBM
> > (e.g. Univac, GE, etc) experience. Indeed, many IBM 360-OS shops
> > would not consider someone with 360-DOS experience. Other
> > installations demanded only applicants experienced in their particular
> > industry (manufacturing seemed to be very picky.)
>
> Which is interesting because in the early 1970s, if you knew one end of a
> computer from
> the other, then anybody would take you on for any computing job, but, as you
> say,
> nowadays you've to have an exact match of language, operating system
> and application to even be considered.
rather selective, as described in the examples.
--many IBM mainframe sites were prejudiced against those with
non-IBM experience.
--many IBM mainframe 'OS' sites were prejudiced against those without
OS experience, even those with DOS experience.
--Many sites wanted people with experience in their industry, that
is, an industrial manfacturing firm wanted someone who worked in
manufacturing before.
Now, it needs to be said that in data processing (like anywhere else),
there was a pecking order--high pay sites and low pay sites.
Various factors determined the salaries at a site. But the sites that
were well paid tended to be nicer, more prestigious places to work in.
For instance, an Ivy League college would be more prestigious than a
local junior college. A Fortune 50 plant would be more prestiguous
than a mom 'n pop factory.
Whether the more prestiguous organizations were more desirable to
work in is another story for another time.
Anyway, the fancy sites could afford to offer better pay, and as such,
be more selective with their applicants.
It also should be noted that prestige level varied over time due to
changing fortunes. A one-time hot company--like General Motors--
could fall way down, and a backwater outfit could climb way up.
Osmium
Nov 2, 2015, 10:27:05 AM11/2/15
to
presented me with the name of a woman I know in my personal life and said
"Wouldn't you like to talk to her?". I absolutely can not imagine a linkage
they could find. But they did. I also get similar messages for professional
associates I know, but I can understand those.
I only signed up at my niece's request. She asked me to "friend" her, or
whatever they call it, so she could glow brighter. She recently got a new
degree.
BartC
Nov 2, 2015, 10:35:46 AM11/2/15
to
--
Bartc
gareth
Nov 2, 2015, 10:35:46 AM11/2/15
to
"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0005238...@aca41e6b.ipt.aol.com...
news:PM0005238...@aca41e6b.ipt.aol.com...
> gareth wrote:
>>
>> I don't see why not, because the language in which a project is coded
>> is somewhat irrelevant following a competent design.
> That's simply not true. A design is constrained by the machine
> lanuguage the software runs on.
Which machine languages are not Universal Turing Machines?
>>
>> I don't see why not, because the language in which a project is coded
>> is somewhat irrelevant following a competent design.
> That's simply not true. A design is constrained by the machine
> lanuguage the software runs on.
Gene Wirchenko
Nov 2, 2015, 11:37:00 AM11/2/15
to
things easy and some things difficult.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Charlie Gibbs
Nov 2, 2015, 12:15:46 PM11/2/15
to
On 2015-10-31, Rich <ri...@example.invalid> wrote:
> In comp.misc Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
> In comp.misc Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that
>> NASA is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience
>> with this specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they
>> want someone who can step into a position with no learning period.
>
>> NASA is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience
>> with this specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they
>> want someone who can step into a position with no learning period.
>
> This is most likely the exact reason. The new standard of "the new
> hire must come fully trained for _our_ particular stuff". How
> companies that expect this manage to hire anyone at all is amazing.
It's not exactly a "new standard". HR departments were doing it back
> hire must come fully trained for _our_ particular stuff". How
> companies that expect this manage to hire anyone at all is amazing.
when they were still called "Personnel". ISTR hearing about some
outfit that was advertising for programmers with 5 years' experience
in Windows 95 - in 1997.
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
gareth
Nov 2, 2015, 12:37:19 PM11/2/15
to
"Gene Wirchenko" <ge...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:j74f3bdtmb7nlmlfk...@4ax.com...
It is very relevant, for that something might be difficult, or perhaps more
involved,
does not denigrate the designed program.
news:j74f3bdtmb7nlmlfk...@4ax.com...
involved,
does not denigrate the designed program.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Nov 2, 2015, 12:54:33 PM11/2/15
to
On Monday, November 2, 2015 at 12:15:46 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> It's not exactly a "new standard". HR departments were doing it back
> when they were still called "Personnel". ISTR hearing about some
> outfit that was advertising for programmers with 5 years' experience
> in Windows 95 - in 1997.
Back in the 1980s, some H/R departments were smart enough to merely
> It's not exactly a "new standard". HR departments were doing it back
> when they were still called "Personnel". ISTR hearing about some
> outfit that was advertising for programmers with 5 years' experience
> in Windows 95 - in 1997.
pass resumes on to the DP dept and let them figure them out. Likewise
with conducting interviews. H/R could conduct an initial screwing to
eliminate obviously unqualified people (amazing who will apply to a job
ad*). Unfortunately, it seems more recently the trend has been to
give H/R a lot more power and say in the process. Part of this may be
due to continued expansion of legal issues.
* Police departments tell prospective applicants that a background
check will be done. Despite this upfront warning, wanted-fugitives
will still apply to be a police officer. So, they get invited in
for an interview, and find themselves handcuffed and off to jail.
Quadibloc
Nov 2, 2015, 12:58:44 PM11/2/15
to
On Monday, November 2, 2015 at 4:05:12 AM UTC-7, Theo Markettos wrote:
> From what I read, the computers are custom, and what they are isn't properly
> written down.
I don't think that is the case, even if I can't find a public copy of the
> From what I read, the computers are custom, and what they are isn't properly
> written down.
documentation. If they don't know how to write programs for those space probes,
they would have no need to hire people to program them - since any attempt to do
so would be foolhardy.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Nov 2, 2015, 1:02:51 PM11/2/15
to
On Monday, November 2, 2015 at 8:35:46 AM UTC-7, gareth wrote:
> Which machine languages are not Universal Turing Machines?
All of them, if you don't count the disk I/O instructions.
> Which machine languages are not Universal Turing Machines?
Oh, actually one doesn't have to impose that restriction. One only has to
exclude whatever one does to ask the operator to change a 9-track tape (or the
equivalent with today's technology).
It's so easy to forget that one of the essential attributes of a UTM is access
to an _infinite_ amount of storage. Literally. A fully-populated 64-bit address
space is not (guaranteed to be) enough.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Nov 2, 2015, 1:06:59 PM11/2/15
to
requirements and the rad-hardened technology of the time, trying to have it do
things that it could theoretically do, but would have to do slowly because they
don't come naturally to its ISA, is indeed something to be avoided as much as
possible.
Thus, the fact that except for finite storage, its processor is doubtless a
UTM, is indeed, as the others are arguing, no panacea.
A program that fires thrusters too late is indeed truly inadequate.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Nov 2, 2015, 1:08:02 PM11/2/15
to
On Monday, November 2, 2015 at 10:54:33 AM UTC-7, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> * Police departments tell prospective applicants that a background
> check will be done. Despite this upfront warning, wanted-fugitives
> will still apply to be a police officer. So, they get invited in
> for an interview, and find themselves handcuffed and off to jail.
World's dumbest criminals, or just world's most forgetful criminals?
> * Police departments tell prospective applicants that a background
> check will be done. Despite this upfront warning, wanted-fugitives
> will still apply to be a police officer. So, they get invited in
> for an interview, and find themselves handcuffed and off to jail.
John Savard
Andrew Swallow
Nov 2, 2015, 1:33:17 PM11/2/15
to
for a fugitive? Answer a police station.
Scott Lurndal
Nov 2, 2015, 2:21:20 PM11/2/15
to
I'm considerably over 30. I won't argue that they tend to prefer
younger (and thus less expensive) employees, but the don't limit themselves
by any means.
Rod Speed
Nov 2, 2015, 3:17:33 PM11/2/15
to
gareth
Nov 2, 2015, 3:48:43 PM11/2/15
to
failure of system design.
Charles Richmond
Nov 2, 2015, 4:12:41 PM11/2/15
to
"Theo Markettos" <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:0Tr*zd...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
computers. And I'll bet there is a copy of the hardware still here on earth
and used for testing purposes. All this only makes sense.
> So it seems to be more of a reverse engineering job, with the caveat that
> finding out whether you were right is a very high risk affair. I suspect
> that if there was an accurate 'Voyager spacecraft emulator' then they
> would
> be home and dry, but the task is more 'read several million pages of
> documentation to work out what it does, and hope you aren't missing any'.
>
> But still, crowdsourcing the research might be a good idea. Though it may
> be the case that a holistic view is required, especially if the subsystems
> don't decompose neatly.
>
So my basic premise... that NASA should try a new paradigm for supporting
Voyager... is something you can sign up for... right???
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
news:0Tr*zd...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> In comp.misc Charles Richmond <nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>> Perhaps NASA and JPL should consider a paradigm shift. Turn the Voyager
>> missions into "open source" projects. Let anyone join in and submit
>> changes. Have two or three people at NASA that manage the changes
>> actually
>> made to the spacecraft. Release executable code for a Voyager spacecraft
>> emulator so the contributors will have a way to test changes. Something
>> along the lines of the way that the Linux kernal is managed...
>
> From what I read, the computers are custom, and what they are isn't
> properly
> written down. Or was, but documentation has been lost. And it's not just
> about the computers, but how they interact with the hardware systems and
> the
> existing loaded software. That means that there is no emulator, and the
> only example you could take apart to see how it works is a rather long way
> away.
>
No, I think that there *are* some manuals about the instruction set of the
>> Perhaps NASA and JPL should consider a paradigm shift. Turn the Voyager
>> missions into "open source" projects. Let anyone join in and submit
>> changes. Have two or three people at NASA that manage the changes
>> actually
>> made to the spacecraft. Release executable code for a Voyager spacecraft
>> emulator so the contributors will have a way to test changes. Something
>> along the lines of the way that the Linux kernal is managed...
>
> From what I read, the computers are custom, and what they are isn't
> properly
> written down. Or was, but documentation has been lost. And it's not just
> about the computers, but how they interact with the hardware systems and
> the
> existing loaded software. That means that there is no emulator, and the
> only example you could take apart to see how it works is a rather long way
> away.
>
computers. And I'll bet there is a copy of the hardware still here on earth
and used for testing purposes. All this only makes sense.
> So it seems to be more of a reverse engineering job, with the caveat that
> finding out whether you were right is a very high risk affair. I suspect
> that if there was an accurate 'Voyager spacecraft emulator' then they
> would
> be home and dry, but the task is more 'read several million pages of
> documentation to work out what it does, and hope you aren't missing any'.
>
> But still, crowdsourcing the research might be a good idea. Though it may
> be the case that a holistic view is required, especially if the subsystems
> don't decompose neatly.
>
Voyager... is something you can sign up for... right???
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Freddy1
Nov 2, 2015, 7:53:25 PM11/2/15
to
Charles Richmond wrote:
> "Theo Markettos" <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:0Tr*zd...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>> In comp.misc Charles Richmond <nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>> Perhaps NASA and JPL should consider a paradigm shift. Turn the Voyager
>>> missions into "open source" projects. Let anyone join in and submit
>>> changes. Have two or three people at NASA that manage the changes
>>> actually
>>> made to the spacecraft. Release executable code for a Voyager
>>> spacecraft
>>> emulator so the contributors will have a way to test changes. Something
>>> along the lines of the way that the Linux kernal is managed...
>>
>> From what I read, the computers are custom, and what they are isn't
>> properly
>> written down. Or was, but documentation has been lost. And it's not
>> just about the computers, but how they interact with the hardware systems
>> and the
>> existing loaded software. That means that there is no emulator, and the
>> only example you could take apart to see how it works is a rather long
>> way away.
>>
>
> No, I think that there *are* some manuals about the instruction set of the
> computers. And I'll bet there is a copy of the hardware still here on
> earth
> and used for testing purposes. All this only makes sense.
>
I recall that some of that hardware was modified after the fact( IE, memory
> "Theo Markettos" <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:0Tr*zd...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>> In comp.misc Charles Richmond <nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>> Perhaps NASA and JPL should consider a paradigm shift. Turn the Voyager
>>> missions into "open source" projects. Let anyone join in and submit
>>> changes. Have two or three people at NASA that manage the changes
>>> actually
>>> made to the spacecraft. Release executable code for a Voyager
>>> spacecraft
>>> emulator so the contributors will have a way to test changes. Something
>>> along the lines of the way that the Linux kernal is managed...
>>
>> From what I read, the computers are custom, and what they are isn't
>> properly
>> written down. Or was, but documentation has been lost. And it's not
>> just about the computers, but how they interact with the hardware systems
>> and the
>> existing loaded software. That means that there is no emulator, and the
>> only example you could take apart to see how it works is a rather long
>> way away.
>>
>
> No, I think that there *are* some manuals about the instruction set of the
> computers. And I'll bet there is a copy of the hardware still here on
> earth
> and used for testing purposes. All this only makes sense.
>
failures that had to be programmed around. Probably some other stuff. ) So
even the on-planet hardware duplicate differs from the actual probe. I hope
that they remembered what spacecraft parts those were.
Freddy,
also experiencing minor hardware failures.
--
Assembled in Mexico.
/|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\|
/| I may be demented \|
/| but I'm not crazy! \|
/|<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\|
* SPAyM trap: there is no X in my address *
Bernd Felsche
Nov 2, 2015, 8:44:07 PM11/2/15
to
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Somewhere in Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \ and postings | --HL Mencken
> Rich <ri...@example.invalid> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that
>>> NASA is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience
>>> with this specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they
>>> want someone who can step into a position with no learning period.
>>
>> This is most likely the exact reason. The new standard of "the new
>> hire must come fully trained for _our_ particular stuff". How
>> companies that expect this manage to hire anyone at all is amazing.
>It's not exactly a "new standard". HR departments were doing it back
>when they were still called "Personnel". ISTR hearing about some
>outfit that was advertising for programmers with 5 years' experience
>in Windows 95 - in 1997.
Deliberately recruiting liars. Not a place I would want to work.
>> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that
>>> NASA is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience
>>> with this specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they
>>> want someone who can step into a position with no learning period.
>>
>> This is most likely the exact reason. The new standard of "the new
>> hire must come fully trained for _our_ particular stuff". How
>> companies that expect this manage to hire anyone at all is amazing.
>It's not exactly a "new standard". HR departments were doing it back
>when they were still called "Personnel". ISTR hearing about some
>outfit that was advertising for programmers with 5 years' experience
>in Windows 95 - in 1997.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Somewhere in Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \ and postings | --HL Mencken
Bernd Felsche
Nov 2, 2015, 8:48:07 PM11/2/15
to
ERSHC
Nov 2, 2015, 9:31:21 PM11/2/15
to
On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:02:48 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> It's so easy to forget that one of the essential attributes of a UTM
> is access to an _infinite_ amount of storage. Literally. A
> fully-populated 64-bit address space is not (guaranteed to be)
> enough.
time only a finite amount of storage (using tape and state) is used in
a "real" turing machine, never an infinite amount.
eric "using a nit comb" ershc
Quadibloc
Nov 2, 2015, 9:40:52 PM11/2/15
to
doing, must end that computation in a finite time, and will only need a finite
amount of storage.
However, the amount of storage that must be potentially available to it is
still infinite, since the amount it will actually use, though finite, may be
arbitrarily large. No finite limit on available storage, however large, is
consistent with it being a true UTM.
John Savard
jmfbahciv
Nov 3, 2015, 7:55:54 AM11/3/15
to
/BAH
jmfbahciv
Nov 3, 2015, 7:55:54 AM11/3/15
to
already had the computer system.
/BAH
gareth
Nov 3, 2015, 8:01:55 AM11/3/15
to
"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM000523A...@aca41ca4.ipt.aol.com...
will
not run on the target machine.
It remains for me, that whatever program I design, it will run whether coded
in
machine code, assembly language, FORTRAN, RTL/2, CORAL, C, Pascal,
FORTH, CRAP, SOAS, or any of a myriad other languages that I have used.
Andrew Swallow
Nov 3, 2015, 2:26:01 PM11/3/15
to
involve constructing the buildings to house the computers in several
different countries.
Charlie Gibbs
Nov 3, 2015, 2:33:00 PM11/3/15
to
On 2015-11-03, Bernd Felsche <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Rich <ri...@example.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that
>>>> NASA is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience
>>>> with this specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they
>>>> want someone who can step into a position with no learning period.
>>>
>>> This is most likely the exact reason. The new standard of "the new
>>> hire must come fully trained for _our_ particular stuff". How
>>> companies that expect this manage to hire anyone at all is amazing.
>
>> It's not exactly a "new standard". HR departments were doing it back
>> when they were still called "Personnel". ISTR hearing about some
>> outfit that was advertising for programmers with 5 years' experience
>> in Windows 95 - in 1997.
>
> Deliberately recruiting liars. Not a place I would want to work.
I like to think that they just didn't bother to proofread their
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Rich <ri...@example.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can't believe that no one "wants to." What I would believe is that
>>>> NASA is not willing to take someone with enthusiasm but no experience
>>>> with this specific hardware and train them. Like most employers they
>>>> want someone who can step into a position with no learning period.
>>>
>>> This is most likely the exact reason. The new standard of "the new
>>> hire must come fully trained for _our_ particular stuff". How
>>> companies that expect this manage to hire anyone at all is amazing.
>
>> It's not exactly a "new standard". HR departments were doing it back
>> when they were still called "Personnel". ISTR hearing about some
>> outfit that was advertising for programmers with 5 years' experience
>> in Windows 95 - in 1997.
>
> Deliberately recruiting liars. Not a place I would want to work.
notice, or think about what they were saying. As Hanlon's Razor
says: "Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be
explained by stupidity."
Still, you should probably think twice about working in a place
that makes such egregious errors.
Rod Speed
Nov 3, 2015, 4:06:45 PM11/3/15
to
news:PM000523A...@aca41ca4.ipt.aol.com...
Irrelevant to the DESIGN being discussed.
John Levine
Nov 3, 2015, 8:28:13 PM11/3/15
to
>Which machine languages are not Universal Turing Machines?
All of them. Eventually you always run out of memory.
R's,
John
gareth
Nov 4, 2015, 6:04:24 AM11/4/15
to
"Andrew Swallow" <am.sw...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:YMmdnXvJaOLal6TL...@giganews.com...
Those exhibiting Builders' Bums do not get to design programs.
news:YMmdnXvJaOLal6TL...@giganews.com...
jmfbahciv
Nov 4, 2015, 8:51:03 AM11/4/15
to
do your coding job. The language developers made it possible so you
didn't have to think about the hardware. All of these people had to do
designs which had tradeoffs determined by the computing environment so
that you wouldn't have to.
/BAH
gareth
Nov 4, 2015, 10:00:26 AM11/4/15
to
"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM000523B...@aca40489.ipt.aol.com...
>
> And the OS developers of this biz made it possible for you to be able to
> do your coding job.
Not so, for I work with the native machine by preference.
> And the OS developers of this biz made it possible for you to be able to
> do your coding job.
> The language developers made it possible so you
> didn't have to think about the hardware.
then
qualifying in electronics with a specialisation in computer design.
With one exception 25 years ago which was a data base for a book publisher,
all my projects
have been hardware related. Any real computer scientist worthy of the name
is fully au fait with how a computer works, anyway.
> All of these people had to do
> designs which had tradeoffs determined by the computing environment so
> that you wouldn't have to.
Rod Speed
Nov 4, 2015, 4:56:30 PM11/4/15
to
news:PM000523B...@aca40489.ipt.aol.com...
Wrong again. I used no OS on the PDP8S, the serial one, that
I used to measure fluorescent decay to below 1ns levels.
> The language developers made it possible so
> you didn't have to think about the hardware.
I didn’t use any language, I used assembler.
> All of these people had to do designs which
> had tradeoffs determined by the computing
> environment so that you wouldn't have to.
They in fact designed the hardware so that it would
do a decent job with any of the commonly used
languages used in that segment of the industry.
And fucked that up pretty comprehensively too
at times like when DEC concentrated on Focal
instead of Basic for various reasons etc.
I used to measure fluorescent decay to below 1ns levels.
> The language developers made it possible so
> you didn't have to think about the hardware.
> All of these people had to do designs which
> had tradeoffs determined by the computing
> environment so that you wouldn't have to.
do a decent job with any of the commonly used
languages used in that segment of the industry.
And fucked that up pretty comprehensively too
at times like when DEC concentrated on Focal
instead of Basic for various reasons etc.
Andrew Swallow
Nov 4, 2015, 6:47:32 PM11/4/15
to
tracym...@gmail.com
Nov 5, 2015, 2:01:28 PM11/5/15
to
On Sunday, November 1, 2015 at 12:37:09 AM UTC-4, Howard S Shubs wrote:
>
> I saw one a month or two ago for a company in LA or San Diego for a
> company looking for MACRO-11 programmers. I don't understand how that
> company has survived this long. I figure someone retired. They're
> supposedly porting to something else, but at the same time, they're
> generating NEW MACRO-11 code?!?
I used to keep MACRO-32 and VAX FORTRAN on my resume for nostalgia's sake, until a couple of years ago I got a call from a very earnest recruiter who desperately needed someone with my "skills". I now strip any technologies I haven't worked with in the last ten years off my resume. Hopefully I'll avoid any annoying questions about my Pascal, PL/I and AIX experience.
>
> I saw one a month or two ago for a company in LA or San Diego for a
> company looking for MACRO-11 programmers. I don't understand how that
> company has survived this long. I figure someone retired. They're
> supposedly porting to something else, but at the same time, they're
> generating NEW MACRO-11 code?!?
Howard S Shubs
Nov 7, 2015, 4:57:19 AM11/7/15
to
Walter Bushell
Nov 11, 2015, 12:08:40 PM11/11/15
to
In article <n17voc$s14$1...@dont-email.me>,
all applications. An algorerhythm that takes thousands of years
is a non starter.
--
Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.
"gareth" <no....@thank.you.invalid> wrote:
> "jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:PM0005238...@aca41e6b.ipt.aol.com...
> > gareth wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't see why not, because the language in which a project is coded
> >> is somewhat irrelevant following a competent design.
> > That's simply not true. A design is constrained by the machine
> > lanuguage the software runs on.
>
>
> "jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:PM0005238...@aca41e6b.ipt.aol.com...
> > gareth wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't see why not, because the language in which a project is coded
> >> is somewhat irrelevant following a competent design.
> > That's simply not true. A design is constrained by the machine
> > lanuguage the software runs on.
>
>
> Which machine languages are not Universal Turing Machines?
All. All machines are finite and there are time considerations in
all applications. An algorerhythm that takes thousands of years
is a non starter.
--
Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.
Walter Bushell
Nov 11, 2015, 12:12:30 PM11/11/15
to
In article <YMmdnXvJaOLal6TL...@giganews.com>,
And we are talking about a confuser on a spacecraft launched long,
long ago (in confuser years) by a much different country. The past
*is* a different country.
long ago (in confuser years) by a much different country. The past
*is* a different country.
Walter Bushell
Nov 11, 2015, 12:15:29 PM11/11/15
to
In article <slrnn3bv7b...@dmaus.org>,
Greymaus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
> In this country, in non-computer areas, it usually means "I want this job for
> a
> particular person, but we have to advertise"
In America for computer jobs also. Ads may require 5 years experience
for an environment that was just released less than a year ago. Ergo,
the fix is in.
Greymaus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
> In this country, in non-computer areas, it usually means "I want this job for
> a
> particular person, but we have to advertise"
In America for computer jobs also. Ads may require 5 years experience
for an environment that was just released less than a year ago. Ergo,
the fix is in.
Bill Evans
Nov 11, 2015, 7:23:16 PM11/11/15
to
Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> And we are talking about a confuser on a spacecraft launched long,
> long ago (in confuser years) by a much different country. The past
> *is* a different country.
Brings to mind the old guidline: comment your code as though
> And we are talking about a confuser on a spacecraft launched long,
> long ago (in confuser years) by a much different country. The past
> *is* a different country.
you were writing it to be understood by a complete stranger,
because six months from now you will *be* that stranger.
--
Bill Evans / Box 1224 / Mariposa, CA 95338 / (209)742-4720
Mail-To: w...@acm.org -- PGP encrypted mail preferred. --
pgpkey.mariposabill.com for public key. Key #: 8D8B521B
PGPprint: 0A9C 3545 8FFF 7501 6265 1519 40FF 76F9 8D8B 521B
Andrew Swallow
Nov 11, 2015, 7:40:07 PM11/11/15
to
On 11/11/2015 17:15, Walter Bushell wrote:
> In article <slrnn3bv7b...@dmaus.org>,
> Greymaus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> In this country, in non-computer areas, it usually means "I want this job for
>> a
>> particular person, but we have to advertise"
>
> In America for computer jobs also. Ads may require 5 years experience
> for an environment that was just released less than a year ago. Ergo,
> the fix is in.
>
Or the manager is having to recruit despite the anti-personal department.
> In article <slrnn3bv7b...@dmaus.org>,
> Greymaus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> In this country, in non-computer areas, it usually means "I want this job for
>> a
>> particular person, but we have to advertise"
>
> In America for computer jobs also. Ads may require 5 years experience
> for an environment that was just released less than a year ago. Ergo,
> the fix is in.
>
Joy Beeson
Nov 11, 2015, 11:11:35 PM11/11/15
to
On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:35:02 -0800 (PST), w...@acm.org (Bill Evans)
wrote:
> Brings to mind the old guidline: comment your code as though
> you were writing it to be understood by a complete stranger,
> because six months from now you will *be* that stranger.
I said pretty much the same thing in my book on sewing.
I had a terrible time, once, identifying the "floral linen" one
pattern said it had been made up in. I should have labeled it
"damask".
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGESEW/
wrote:
> Brings to mind the old guidline: comment your code as though
> you were writing it to be understood by a complete stranger,
> because six months from now you will *be* that stranger.
I had a terrible time, once, identifying the "floral linen" one
pattern said it had been made up in. I should have labeled it
"damask".
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGESEW/
Scott Lurndal
Nov 12, 2015, 10:31:10 AM11/12/15
to
w...@acm.org (Bill Evans) writes:
>Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> And we are talking about a confuser on a spacecraft launched long,
>> long ago (in confuser years) by a much different country. The past
>> *is* a different country.
>
>Brings to mind the old guidline: comment your code as though
>you were writing it to be understood by a complete stranger,
>because six months from now you will *be* that stranger.
And the longer you program, the shorter that six months becomes :-(
>Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> And we are talking about a confuser on a spacecraft launched long,
>> long ago (in confuser years) by a much different country. The past
>> *is* a different country.
>
>Brings to mind the old guidline: comment your code as though
>you were writing it to be understood by a complete stranger,
>because six months from now you will *be* that stranger.
Paul Sture
Nov 12, 2015, 12:41:30 PM11/12/15
to
On 2015-11-11, Bill Evans <w...@acm.org> wrote:
> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> And we are talking about a confuser on a spacecraft launched long,
>> long ago (in confuser years) by a much different country. The past
>> *is* a different country.
>
> Brings to mind the old guidline: comment your code as though
> you were writing it to be understood by a complete stranger,
> because six months from now you will *be* that stranger.
I used to spend a lot of time at customer sites, so the ability to be
> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> And we are talking about a confuser on a spacecraft launched long,
>> long ago (in confuser years) by a much different country. The past
>> *is* a different country.
>
> Brings to mind the old guidline: comment your code as though
> you were writing it to be understood by a complete stranger,
> because six months from now you will *be* that stranger.
understood by someone else was firmly in the job description. I
*really* didn't want to get called back at some point in the future due
to having left some incomprehensible code in place.
--
Should not the Society of Indexers be know as Indexers, Society of, The?
-- Keith Waterhouse
RS Wood
May 4, 2017, 6:40:08 AM5/4/17
to
On 2015-10-31, RS Wood <r...@therandymon.com> wrote:
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/31/brush_up_on_your_fortran/
>
> //--clip
> In an interview with Popular Mechanics, the manager of NASA's Voyager
> program Suzanne Dodd said the retirement of the last original crew
> member has left the space agency with a shortage of people capable of
> communicating with the 40-year-old craft.
> Launched in 1977, the two Voyager crafts rely on mid-70s hardware
> powered by purpose-built General Electric interrupt processors. After
> 38 years in space, the two probes are currently on the outer fringes of
> the Sun's influence, heading into interstellar space.
> Though most of the instruments onboard the two probes have been
> deactivated, both are still able to maintain contact with Earth and
> will continue to do so into the 2020's, until their onboard
> radioisotope thermoelectric generators no longer function.
> In the meantime, NASA needs engineers capable of interacting with the
> 1970s-era technology, a skillset that includes knowledge of both
> Fortran and assembly as well as the ability to command a machine with
> just around 68KB of total memory.
> "Although, some people can program in an assembly language and
> understand the intricacy of the spacecraft, most younger people can't
> or really don't want to," Dodd was quoted as saying.
> With high-level languages now the standard for developers, knowing how
> to fluently code in assembly has become a specialized skill, as has
> fluency in dated languages such as Fortran. While obscure, the skillset
> is potentially lucrative. Along with NASA's aging fleet of spacecraft,
> many businesses still rely on ancient languages such as Fortran or
> COBOL for specialized tasks and critical infrastructure. ®
> //--clip
I posted the above back in October 2015. Interesting to see something
similar in early 2017. Again, from the Register:
//--clip
Feed: The Register
Title: Fortran greybeards: Get your walking frames and shuffle over to NASA
Author: Richard Chirgwin
Link: http://go.theregister.com/feed/www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/04/fortran_greyb
eards_get_your_walking_frame_and_shuffle_over_to_nasa/
Date: Thu, 04 May 2017 03:28:13 -0400
Space agency has US$55k in prizes to those who can accelerate old code
NASA wants scientific computer experts to take a look at one of its oldest
software suites in the hope they can speed it up.…
//--clip
NASA is serious about bringing in FORTRAN developers. And now we have some
specific tasks - looking for performance improvements in old code. Wonder
if FORTRAN can do SMP these days?
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/31/brush_up_on_your_fortran/
>
> //--clip
> In an interview with Popular Mechanics, the manager of NASA's Voyager
> program Suzanne Dodd said the retirement of the last original crew
> member has left the space agency with a shortage of people capable of
> communicating with the 40-year-old craft.
> Launched in 1977, the two Voyager crafts rely on mid-70s hardware
> powered by purpose-built General Electric interrupt processors. After
> 38 years in space, the two probes are currently on the outer fringes of
> the Sun's influence, heading into interstellar space.
> Though most of the instruments onboard the two probes have been
> deactivated, both are still able to maintain contact with Earth and
> will continue to do so into the 2020's, until their onboard
> radioisotope thermoelectric generators no longer function.
> In the meantime, NASA needs engineers capable of interacting with the
> 1970s-era technology, a skillset that includes knowledge of both
> Fortran and assembly as well as the ability to command a machine with
> just around 68KB of total memory.
> "Although, some people can program in an assembly language and
> understand the intricacy of the spacecraft, most younger people can't
> or really don't want to," Dodd was quoted as saying.
> With high-level languages now the standard for developers, knowing how
> to fluently code in assembly has become a specialized skill, as has
> fluency in dated languages such as Fortran. While obscure, the skillset
> is potentially lucrative. Along with NASA's aging fleet of spacecraft,
> many businesses still rely on ancient languages such as Fortran or
> COBOL for specialized tasks and critical infrastructure. ®
> //--clip
I posted the above back in October 2015. Interesting to see something
similar in early 2017. Again, from the Register:
//--clip
Feed: The Register
Title: Fortran greybeards: Get your walking frames and shuffle over to NASA
Author: Richard Chirgwin
Link: http://go.theregister.com/feed/www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/04/fortran_greyb
eards_get_your_walking_frame_and_shuffle_over_to_nasa/
Date: Thu, 04 May 2017 03:28:13 -0400
Space agency has US$55k in prizes to those who can accelerate old code
NASA wants scientific computer experts to take a look at one of its oldest
software suites in the hope they can speed it up.…
//--clip
NASA is serious about bringing in FORTRAN developers. And now we have some
specific tasks - looking for performance improvements in old code. Wonder
if FORTRAN can do SMP these days?
Rich
May 4, 2017, 6:56:46 AM5/4/17
to
In comp.misc RS Wood <r...@therandymon.com> wrote:
> NASA is serious about bringing in FORTRAN developers. And now we
> have some specific tasks - looking for performance improvements in
> old code. Wonder if FORTRAN can do SMP these days?
Yes:
> NASA is serious about bringing in FORTRAN developers. And now we
> have some specific tasks - looking for performance improvements in
> old code. Wonder if FORTRAN can do SMP these days?
http://scv.bu.edu/computation/bluegene/IBMdocs/compiler/xlf-10.1/html/xlfopg/smpsrc2.htm#smpsrc2
There's a set of four comparitive examples (the one above being one
of the set) here:
http://scv.bu.edu/computation/bluegene/IBMdocs/compiler/xlf-10.1/html/xlfopg/sampprg.htm
FORTRAN, it seems, is still quite extensively used in scientific number
crunching.
David Jones
May 4, 2017, 11:31:03 AM5/4/17
to
It doesn't surprise me since it can handle imaginary numbers. Not many languages can do that natively.
Andrew Swallow
May 4, 2017, 8:15:26 PM5/4/17
to
On 04/05/2017 11:40, RS Wood wrote:
{snip}
>
> Space agency has US$55k in prizes to those who can accelerate old code
>
> NASA wants scientific computer experts to take a look at one of its oldest
> software suites in the hope they can speed it up.…
>
> //--clip
>
> NASA is serious about bringing in FORTRAN developers. And now we have some
> specific tasks - looking for performance improvements in old code. Wonder
> if FORTRAN can do SMP these days?
>
Check you data structures when speeding up Fortran. Since it does not
have them they were not planned. I/O is the other slow item.
NASA may have used some bit handling, possibly by calling subroutines.
Just recompiling the program to run on an ARM or X'86 microprocessor is
likely to produce a speed up. Although check word length.
{snip}
>
> Space agency has US$55k in prizes to those who can accelerate old code
>
> NASA wants scientific computer experts to take a look at one of its oldest
> software suites in the hope they can speed it up.…
>
> //--clip
>
> NASA is serious about bringing in FORTRAN developers. And now we have some
> specific tasks - looking for performance improvements in old code. Wonder
> if FORTRAN can do SMP these days?
>
have them they were not planned. I/O is the other slow item.
NASA may have used some bit handling, possibly by calling subroutines.
Just recompiling the program to run on an ARM or X'86 microprocessor is
likely to produce a speed up. Although check word length.
Andrew Swallow
May 4, 2017, 8:20:42 PM5/4/17
to
On 04/05/2017 16:31, David Jones wrote:
> It doesn't surprise me since it can handle imaginary numbers. Not
> many languages can do that natively.
>
Did Bill Gates get round to add COMPLEX to his Fortran?
> It doesn't surprise me since it can handle imaginary numbers. Not
> many languages can do that natively.
>
Fortran is good for CPU bound applications that do not use recursion.
Peter Flass
May 4, 2017, 8:59:29 PM5/4/17
to
--
Pete
Andrew Swallow
May 4, 2017, 9:07:59 PM5/4/17
to
J. Clarke
May 5, 2017, 4:29:20 AM5/5/17
to
In article <15adnfVBc_uAWZbE...@giganews.com>,
am.sw...@btinternet.com says...
whatever code they're running now on x86? And if they aren't, what makes
you think that an x86 can be adapted to the task? They may be dealing with
inaccessible hardware.
am.sw...@btinternet.com says...
>
> On 04/05/2017 11:40, RS Wood wrote:
> {snip}
>
> >
> > Space agency has US$55k in prizes to those who can accelerate old code
> >
> > NASA wants scientific computer experts to take a look at one of its oldest
> > software suites in the hope they can speed it up.?
> On 04/05/2017 11:40, RS Wood wrote:
> {snip}
>
> >
> > Space agency has US$55k in prizes to those who can accelerate old code
> >
> > NASA wants scientific computer experts to take a look at one of its oldest
> >
> > //--clip
> >
> > NASA is serious about bringing in FORTRAN developers. And now we have some
> > specific tasks - looking for performance improvements in old code. Wonder
> > if FORTRAN can do SMP these days?
> >
>
> Check you data structures when speeding up Fortran. Since it does not
> have them they were not planned. I/O is the other slow item.
>
> NASA may have used some bit handling, possibly by calling subroutines.
>
> Just recompiling the program to run on an ARM or X'86 microprocessor is
> likely to produce a speed up. Although check word length.
Speed up compared to what? And what makes you think they aren't running
> > //--clip
> >
> > NASA is serious about bringing in FORTRAN developers. And now we have some
> > specific tasks - looking for performance improvements in old code. Wonder
> > if FORTRAN can do SMP these days?
> >
>
> Check you data structures when speeding up Fortran. Since it does not
> have them they were not planned. I/O is the other slow item.
>
> NASA may have used some bit handling, possibly by calling subroutines.
>
> Just recompiling the program to run on an ARM or X'86 microprocessor is
> likely to produce a speed up. Although check word length.
whatever code they're running now on x86? And if they aren't, what makes
you think that an x86 can be adapted to the task? They may be dealing with
inaccessible hardware.
Richard Kettlewell
May 5, 2017, 4:50:01 AM5/5/17
to
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> writes:
> Speed up compared to what? And what makes you think they aren't running
> whatever code they're running now on x86? And if they aren't, what makes
> you think that an x86 can be adapted to the task? They may be dealing with
> inaccessible hardware.
There is no need for anyone to speculate, they specify the supercomputer
> Speed up compared to what? And what makes you think they aren't running
> whatever code they're running now on x86? And if they aren't, what makes
> you think that an x86 can be adapted to the task? They may be dealing with
> inaccessible hardware.
it runs on.
--
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
Paul Sture
May 5, 2017, 7:10:09 AM5/5/17
to
On 2017-05-05, J. Clarke <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <15adnfVBc_uAWZbE...@giganews.com>,
> am.sw...@btinternet.com says...
<snip>
> In article <15adnfVBc_uAWZbE...@giganews.com>,
> am.sw...@btinternet.com says...
>> Just recompiling the program to run on an ARM or X'86 microprocessor is
>> likely to produce a speed up. Although check word length.
>
> Speed up compared to what? And what makes you think they aren't running
> whatever code they're running now on x86? And if they aren't, what makes
> you think that an x86 can be adapted to the task? They may be dealing with
> inaccessible hardware.
>
"For more information about this challenge, the FUN3D software, or the
Pleiades supercomputer, send an email..."
Pleiades Supercomputer details here:
<https://www.nas.nasa.gov/hecc/resources/pleiades.html#url>
System Architecture
Manufacturer: SGI
161 racks (11,472 nodes)
7.25 Pflop/s peak cluster
5.95 Pflop/s LINPACK rating (#13 on November 2016 TOP500 list)
175 Tflop/s HPCG rating (#9 on November 2016 HPCG list)
Total CPU cores: 246,048
Total memory: 938 TB
2 racks (64 nodes total) enhanced with NVIDIA graphics processing units
(GPUs)
184,320 CUDA cores
0.275 Pflop/s total
1 rack (32 nodes total) enhanced with Intel Xeon Phi co-processors (MICs)
3,840 MIC cores
0.064 Pflop/s total
--
Everybody has a testing environment. Some people are lucky enough to
have a totally separate environment to run production in.
Paul Sture
May 5, 2017, 7:44:19 AM5/5/17
to
very much so.
The links you give are IBM specific. I
If you want to try it at home, there are two parallel processing methods
for GNU Fortran (aka gfortran, binaries available for Linux, Windows,
macOS and more):
<https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/GFortran>
OpenMP:
<https://sites.google.com/site/gfortransite/>
OpenMP official site:
<http://www.openmp.org/specifications/>
MPI:
<http://www.mcs.anl.gov/research/projects/mpi/tutorial/mpibasics/index.htm>
The flavour used by the Pleiades Supercomputer can be found at the bottom of
this page:
<https://www.nas.nasa.gov/hecc/resources/pleiades.html>
Operating Environment
Operating system: SUSE® Linux®
Job scheduler: Altair PBS Professional®
Compilers: Intel and GNU C, C++ and Fortran
MPI: SGI MPT
Note: Intel has its own C++ and Fortran compilers.
<https://software.intel.com/en-us/intel-compilers/>
0 new messages