questions about "The Source" online service, and "The Pits" game
Eric Smith
old online service "The Source", years before Compuserve bought them
out? I never did get very far in the game, since I couldn't affort
to spend much money on it. Does anyone know who the authors were, and
whether the game was available in any other form?
What kind of computers did The Source use, anyhow?
Eric
John A. Limpert
Eric Smith wrote in message ...
>Does anyone remember a text adventure game called "The Pits" from the
>old online service "The Source", years before Compuserve bought them
>out?
Never played it, could it have been a version of Wumpus?
>What kind of computers did The Source use, anyhow?
I think they used Prime computers, running PRIMOS.
Eric Smith
> Does anyone remember a text adventure game called "The Pits" from the
> old online service "The Source", years before Compuserve bought them
> out?
"John A. Limpert" <jo...@radix.net> writes:
> Never played it, could it have been a version of Wumpus?
No, it was a very elaborate text adventure. I think it was even
bigger than the original Crowther and Woods Adventure.
Bill Vermillion
>>old online service "The Source", years before Compuserve bought them
>>out?
>Never played it, could it have been a version of Wumpus?
>>What kind of computers did The Source use, anyhow?
>I think they used Prime computers, running PRIMOS.
Yup. They were Primes. We had a mailing group on the Source in
late 1979 (as I recall) devoted to technical exchange on the Radio
Shack Model I. There were about 50-75 of us, out of a total
of under 3000 users.
Then came that fateful day in February when they tried to add a
second Prime.
The system crashed. They got it limping along about 1.5 days
later. Email couldn't have been slower if it had been delivered by
a snail.
You'd type the email command, and it could take as much as 5
minutes for a response to come back.
After a couple of weeks of this our 'group leader', Richard Taylor
who was an opera singer, went to H&R Block to see about moving us
to the new service they had started to sell time on their computers
after hours. It was called Micronet.
He wrote the first sig ever on Micronet (later renamed Compuserve)
and it was in Fortran.
We'd log on with out login name and password. We'd then get
a $ prompt (I recall it was $ - but it was 20 years ago),
and then we'd type run mnet80 The membership kit also included
a manual for BASIC and a overview of system commands.
Long distance phone charges were pretty high 20 years ago, so to
move files we upload them to our account - chmod them to be
readable by others, and then a user across the country could pick
the file up immediately via a local download.
When C'Serve went after the commercial/business market they shut
off shell access, and they delayed all mail transmission by 4 hours
unless you had the extra cost business account, that would deliver
mail immediately.
My source ID was TCB777 and they started with TCA001 (or 000).
On Cserve I was 70212,214. When I stoppe using them years ago
there were no numbers that low.
Between the Source and Compuserver (Micronet) there were a total of
just about 6000 users. Sort of fun to look back but I really do
enjoy today's technology - though some of would have been
considered magic then.
--
Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com
Bonnie Hammel
(Bill Vermillion) wrote:
>After a couple of weeks of this our 'group leader', Richard Taylor
>who was an opera singer, went to H&R Block to see about moving us
>to the new service they had started to sell time on their computers
>after hours. It was called Micronet.
>He wrote the first sig ever on Micronet (later renamed Compuserve)
>and it was in Fortran.
H&R Block didn't start CompuServe Information Service. It existed for
several years before Block came into the picture. Micronet was
established by Compu-serv (and Radio Shack) in 1979, while it was
still owned by an insurance company.
CompuServe's historians are kinda vague on the name changes. However,
the company changed its name from Compu-serv to CompuServe, and the
name of Micronet to CompuServe Information Service about the time HRB
bought it.
CompuServe *did* buy The Source after HRB bought CompuServe, though.
When the company was broken up and the information service fell into
the hands of AOL, the name of the information service became CSI
instead of CIS; previously, the company used the CSI to refer to the
whole business (CompuServe Inc) while CIS stood for the information
service.
The Apple forum on CompuServe isn't the oldest (AVSIG, the aviation
forum is), but they kept the name MAUG which stands for "Micronet
Apple User Group"
Bill Vermillion
Bonnie Hammel <shee...@generous.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Feb 1999 03:24:01 GMT, bi...@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS
>(Bill Vermillion) wrote:
>>After a couple of weeks of this our 'group leader', Richard Taylor
>>who was an opera singer, went to H&R Block to see about moving us
>>to the new service they had started to sell time on their computers
>>after hours. It was called Micronet.
>>He wrote the first sig ever on Micronet (later renamed Compuserve)
>>and it was in Fortran.
>H&R Block didn't start CompuServe Information Service. It existed for
>several years before Block came into the picture. Micronet was
>established by Compu-serv (and Radio Shack) in 1979, while it was
>still owned by an insurance company.
You did note that I did call it MicroNet. It only became
Compuserve later. I thought H&R owned it then. I could be
mistaken. It was owned by a large DP company and they were trying
to find ways to sell unused (basically overnight) computer time.
It was $9.00 or $7.00 hour (depending on whether you had to use
Tymnet for a $2.00 surcharge) for 300 BPS service from 6PM to
??AM (it was either 6AM or 8AM). As I recall the access during the
8AM to 6PM time was over $20/hour.
>CompuServe's historians are kinda vague on the name changes. However,
>the company changed its name from Compu-serv to CompuServe, and the
>name of Micronet to CompuServe Information Service about the time HRB
>bought it.
I can beleive they were lost. None of them appeared to bet there
at the time. And the 'cover-up' they did when getting rid of
Richard Taylor - because he as the manager of MNET-80 was getting a
lot of money - was pretty crude. They made a LOT of enemies at
that time. The re-resurected the group under another name, but by
then it was far too late.
They also realized that they could retain more money if they
changed the scale that they were paying those who owned/managed
the sigs. That was based on a percentage of the connect time
in which a user was on their sig. It more than made up for the
cost of maintaining one. I was a co-sysop on one back in 1983.
>CompuServe *did* buy The Source after HRB bought CompuServe, though.
That was much later.
>The Apple forum on CompuServe isn't the oldest (AVSIG, the aviation
>forum is), but they kept the name MAUG which stands for "Micronet
>Apple User Group"
The original TRS80 group was the first. MNET-80. Somewhere on
disks, if they are still readable, I have messages numbering in the
80s range. I didn't get moved over that as quick so I never got to
archive messages #1.
The AVSIG may be the oldest existing, but it certainly wasn't the
first.
Somewhere in my piles of books/papers I have my original MicroNet
documentation.
bill_h
.....
> H&R Block didn't start CompuServe Information Service. It existed for
> several years before Block came into the picture. Micronet was
> established by Compu-serv (and Radio Shack) in 1979, while it was
> still owned by an insurance company.
>
> the company changed its name from Compu-serv to CompuServe, and the
> name of Micronet to CompuServe Information Service about the time HRB
> bought it.
There's a number of folks around Tucson who talk about work done by
some computer science grad students. Some of these folks originally
moved to Ohio when the business was sold in that direction. None of
this has shown up in any of the supposed 'histories' I've seen so far.
I'd suggest in asking about the early days of Compuserve, ask also
about Tucson and the University of Arizona.
On another subject - sure wish I could (re-)find the book that claimed
one (of the two ever built) Harvard Mark I computers was 'sent to
Arizona'.
The other went to Iowa. Where, likewise, nothing remains.
Bill
Tucson
Bonnie Hammel
(Bill Vermillion) wrote:
>>>After a couple of weeks of this our 'group leader', Richard Taylor
>>>who was an opera singer, went to H&R Block to see about moving us
>>>to the new service they had started to sell time on their computers
>>>after hours. It was called Micronet.
>>>He wrote the first sig ever on Micronet (later renamed Compuserve)
>>>and it was in Fortran.
>>H&R Block didn't start CompuServe Information Service. It existed for
>>several years before Block came into the picture. Micronet was
>>established by Compu-serv (and Radio Shack) in 1979, while it was
>>still owned by an insurance company.
>You did note that I did call it MicroNet. It only became
>Compuserve later. I thought H&R owned it then. I could be
>mistaken. It was owned by a large DP company and they were trying
>to find ways to sell unused (basically overnight) computer time.
I didn't explain myself very well.
Compu-Serv was created in 1969 by Jeff Wilkins and John Goltz as a
subsidiary of Golden United Life Insurance.
In 1973, they moved from 5th Avenue to Upper Arlington.
About 1977, they opened the Dublin building.
It became CompuServe between 1973 and 1977.
CompuServe created MicroNet in 1979.
H&R Block bought CompuServe in 1980.
MicroNet was renamed CompuServe Information Service after Tom Block
bought the company.
>It was $9.00 or $7.00 hour (depending on whether you had to use
>Tymnet for a $2.00 surcharge) for 300 BPS service from 6PM to
>??AM (it was either 6AM or 8AM). As I recall the access during the
>8AM to 6PM time was over $20/hour.
Was it that cheap back then? I remember paying $22.80/hour for 1200
BPS service a half-dozen years ago.
>I can beleive they were lost. None of them appeared to bet there
>at the time. And the 'cover-up' they did when getting rid of
>Richard Taylor - because he as the manager of MNET-80 was getting a
>lot of money - was pretty crude. They made a LOT of enemies at
>that time. The re-resurected the group under another name, but by
>then it was far too late.
I never got all the details about why Jeff Wilkins left the company,
but it was about the same time.
>They also realized that they could retain more money if they
>changed the scale that they were paying those who owned/managed
>the sigs. That was based on a percentage of the connect time
>in which a user was on their sig. It more than made up for the
>cost of maintaining one. I was a co-sysop on one back in 1983.
While the idea of figuring out a way to make more money was not
anathema at CompuServe - nor should it be at any other company, for
that matter - the top management didn't really give a rat's ass about
what happened with CIS. They were embarassed and annoyed by it.
The Information Service was a stepchild at CompuServe right from the
very start, up until the time that it was sold to AOL. The important
business was Network Services - taking care of Visa and the airlines,
including the scheduling of flight crews. It wasn't until about 1987
or 1988 that CIS even amounted to half of CompuServe; it was called
"schlock timesharing" by the salesforce that sold the regular
timesharing services, and the old force was solidly in charge of the
company.
In the early 90s, there was an inability to manufacture enough nodes
to meet demand - CompuServe built their own computers, own disk
arrays, own nodes, and couldn't find skilled workers in the Columbus
area - and the word went around that if you wanted to get nodes
installed in your city, you found someone to sign up for timesharing
services. The Information Services folks were nuisances. Network
Services ruled the roost.
>The original TRS80 group was the first. MNET-80. Somewhere on
>disks, if they are still readable, I have messages numbering in the
>80s range. I didn't get moved over that as quick so I never got to
>archive messages #1.
It would make sense that the TRS80 group would be the original, since
Radio Shack was doing the original marketing for MicroNet; I only
meant to say that AVSIG was the oldest surviving forum.
The message numbers, though, were not system-wide, as they were on
many BBSes and on most web board software; each forum had its own set
of message numbers.
Bill Vermillion
Okay - that's a good timeline. I had no idea that they went back
with the name that far. I do remember that it was about 1979 that
both the Source and MicroNet were doing about the same thing.
I was on Source as it was only $2.25 hour. The move to M'net was
a $9 - (300BPS), but you got more data per dollar from the M'net
DEC-10s, than the Primes at the Source. It went to hell the day
they tried to bring the second prime on line.
>MicroNet was renamed CompuServe Information Service after Tom Block
>bought the company.
>>It was $9.00 or $7.00 hour (depending on whether you had to use
>>Tymnet for a $2.00 surcharge) for 300 BPS service from 6PM to
>>??AM (it was either 6AM or 8AM). As I recall the access during the
>>8AM to 6PM time was over $20/hour.
>Was it that cheap back then? I remember paying $22.80/hour for 1200
>BPS service a half-dozen years ago.
They had bandwidth tiered pricing for a long time. I basically
stopped using it much when I got onto usenet in 1986, dropped it
entirely a couple of years later. Was also on BIX - and that was
an interesting system. As long as you stayed in the real
technical groups and didn't wander into Jerry's inane yammerings -
and sometimes dis-information -you were okay.
>>I can beleive they were lost. None of them appeared to bet there
>>at the time. And the 'cover-up' they did when getting rid of
>>Richard Taylor - because he as the manager of MNET-80 was getting a
>>lot of money - was pretty crude. They made a LOT of enemies at
>>that time. The re-resurected the group under another name, but by
>>then it was far too late.
>I never got all the details about why Jeff Wilkins left the company,
>but it was about the same time.
Ah. Something I did not know. There was a lot of change there,
and all the companies running SIGs there were not too happy. I was
a co-Sysop on one and a 'deep throat' told me some of the detail,
and _IF_ they mentioned these details they would lose their sig.
Hm. Sounds like nothing has changed in the software biz.
>While the idea of figuring out a way to make more money was not
>anathema at CompuServe - nor should it be at any other company, for
>that matter - the top management didn't really give a rat's ass about
>what happened with CIS. They were embarassed and annoyed by it.
From my comment above it appeared that they felt they were giving
too high a percentage to the SIG operators. They really wanted to
get rid of all of them and run the SIGs themselves. I believe this
was after the H&R purchase.
>The Information Service was a stepchild at CompuServe right from the
>very start, up until the time that it was sold to AOL. The important
>business was Network Services - taking care of Visa and the airlines,
>including the scheduling of flight crews. It wasn't until about 1987
>or 1988 that CIS even amounted to half of CompuServe; it was called
>"schlock timesharing" by the salesforce that sold the regular
>timesharing services, and the old force was solidly in charge of the
>company.
Thanks for that comment.
>>The original TRS80 group was the first. MNET-80. Somewhere on
>>disks, if they are still readable, I have messages numbering in the
>>80s range. I didn't get moved over that as quick so I never got to
>>archive messages #1.
>It would make sense that the TRS80 group would be the original, since
>Radio Shack was doing the original marketing for MicroNet; I only
>meant to say that AVSIG was the oldest surviving forum.
This group had NO ties with Radio Shack. Tandy avoided these but
there were RS oriented business groups too. Later, I seem to
recall that a TCBUG sig was formed, or at least it was part of one
of the forums. The TRS80 group started with all of us just
moving over to MicroNet.
In those days Tandy was noted for cancelling advertisements in
magazines that didn't give their computers good reviews. This
group had some great technical peopole and the machines were
typically 'improved'. I even wrote up instructions and wiring
diagrams on how to get the "Paper Tiger" printer interface to the
I.
Tandy wasn't really happy that people could put other brands of
equipment on their systems and the salesman sort of hinted - but
never said it outright - that you might damage the system by using
non-RS accessories.
>The message numbers, though, were not system-wide, as they were on
>many BBSes and on most web board software; each forum had its own set
>of message numbers.
Correct. The limit of messages was quite low too. I remember when
the pc.sig got started. You'd see messages there for a week, then
5 days, then 3 days, and eventually it got to deleting messages
after only one day, as that was a pre-programmed limit. They only
changed it when the message duration was so low as to be unuseable.
Bill
Bill Vermillion
bill_h <bil...@sunsouthwest.com> wrote:
>Bonnie Hammel wrote:
>.....
>> CompuServe's historians are kinda vague on the name changes. However,
>> the company changed its name from Compu-serv to CompuServe, and the
>> name of Micronet to CompuServe Information Service about the time HRB
>> bought it.
>There's a number of folks around Tucson who talk about work done by
>some computer science grad students. Some of these folks originally
>moved to Ohio when the business was sold in that direction. None of
>this has shown up in any of the supposed 'histories' I've seen so far.
>I'd suggest in asking about the early days of Compuserve, ask also
>about Tucson and the University of Arizona.
>On another subject - sure wish I could (re-)find the book that
>claimed one (of the two ever built) Harvard Mark I computers was
>'sent to Arizona'. The other went to Iowa. Where, likewise, nothing
>remains.
So where in Arizona. GE did a great amount of research in Phoenix.
They were far away from corporate HQ so they could do almost
anything they wanted as long as the higher ups didn't notice.
Was that before the GE site in Phoenix, which later was sold to
Groupe Bull.
< ... time passes ...>
I'm back. Guess what - GE was much later. I just found the
Harvard Mark I references. ( I have a rather strange and bizarre
collection of computer books).
The index listing for Harvard Mark I says see "HARVARD ASCC".
16 July 1946 - lecture by Dr.Howard Aiken - Harvard Univesity
The Harvard Automatic Sequence Controller Calculator.
From a chapter by Dr J H Curtis - National Bureau of Standards he
traces the history of government useage.
IBM buil the Mark I and the US Navy accept it on August 7, 1944.
"... internal memory consists of seventy-two 24 column
electromagnetic counters giving a total of 1656 decminal digits
(one counter in each 24-column is use to identify sign)."
"next to be complete were two small relay computers, built at Bell
Labs ... One is installed at the Naval Research Laboratory ...
the other is at Fort Bliss, Texas." (note 3 refers to George
Stibitz, "Relay Computers", AMP report No. 171.R February
1945. Restricted.
That machine was described as operating in 'biquinary" scale.
About 10 or 12 pages into the lecture is the statement "This
concludes the subject of existing and almost existing relay
calculators. In fact, it is possible that this concludes the
entire history of large automatic relay caclulators, fo the next
and last item in this catalogue of existing equipment is a machine
which has opened up new vistas in the file of high-speed digital
computing. The Machne is the ENIAC .... built by the Moore School
of Electrical Engineering ... This now famous machine was put into
service in the fall of 1945, and has been described in some detail
..." - and he references two docouments, one restricted and one
confidential.
There is also a chart comparing machine execution speed.
For adding (10 + 10) digits 0.3 seconds for electromechanical
counting machines
0.125 sec for Aiken realy machines
.0002 sec ENIAC
Part of this two-week series was being used to show the 28 invited
students [the studen list had three names I recongize, one well
known and two others whose name rings a bell, Claude Shannon, Sam
Lubkin, and Alber Sayer, and Frank Verzhun] operation of electronic
computers.
The lecture title was "Theory and Techniques of Deisg of Electronic
Digital Computers".
It mentioned the Mark II was under construction but that's about
it.
For those interested in the early history this book has a lot in
it. Some lectures were re-created from notes, others from recorded
transcripts, and some were lost.
It's from the "Charles Bagges Institue Reprint Serive for the
History of Computing" Volume 9. MIT Press A 1985 reprint of the
original 1947 publication.
ISBN number is 0-262-03109-4. Available as of two years ago.
I'll keep my eyes open for references to the MK II.
Sam Weiner
Bill Vermillion <bi...@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS> wrote:
>In article <36C862...@sunsouthwest.com>,
>bill_h <bil...@sunsouthwest.com> wrote:
>>Bonnie Hammel wrote:
>>.....
>
>>> CompuServe's historians are kinda vague on the name changes. However,
>>> the company changed its name from Compu-serv to CompuServe, and the
>>> name of Micronet to CompuServe Information Service about the time HRB
>>> bought it.
>
>>There's a number of folks around Tucson who talk about work done by
>>some computer science grad students. Some of these folks originally
>>moved to Ohio when the business was sold in that direction. None of
>>this has shown up in any of the supposed 'histories' I've seen so far.
>
>>I'd suggest in asking about the early days of Compuserve, ask also
>>about Tucson and the University of Arizona.
There is an article on the origions of Compuserve focusing on its
use of the PDP-10 at http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/compuserve.html
>>On another subject - sure wish I could (re-)find the book that
>>claimed one (of the two ever built) Harvard Mark I computers was
>>'sent to Arizona'. The other went to Iowa. Where, likewise, nothing
>>remains.
>
>So where in Arizona. GE did a great amount of research in Phoenix.
>They were far away from corporate HQ so they could do almost
>anything they wanted as long as the higher ups didn't notice.
>
>Was that before the GE site in Phoenix, which later was sold to
>Groupe Bull.
I'm not totally up on what went on in Phoenix but the Datanet series
(including the DN30 which added to the GE225 made up the original
Dartmouth system) and some of Multics were part of it. The GE link
from http://www.36bit.org/ may lead to more information.
Sam
PS Got three systems I used in one post.
David Carey
>focusing on its use of the PDP-10 at
http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/compuserve.html
The correct URL is http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/compuserve.txt
Interesting story.
DC
Bill Vermillion
>In article <F7Iyq...@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>,
>Bill Vermillion <bi...@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS> wrote:
>>In article <36C862...@sunsouthwest.com>,
>>bill_h <bil...@sunsouthwest.com> wrote:
>>>Bonnie Hammel wrote:
>>>.....
>>
>>>> CompuServe's historians are kinda vague on the name changes. However,
>>>> the company changed its name from Compu-serv to CompuServe, and the
>>>> name of Micronet to CompuServe Information Service about the time HRB
>>>> bought it.
>>
>>>There's a number of folks around Tucson who talk about work done by
>>>some computer science grad students. Some of these folks originally
>>>moved to Ohio when the business was sold in that direction. None of
>>>this has shown up in any of the supposed 'histories' I've seen so far.
>>
>>>I'd suggest in asking about the early days of Compuserve, ask also
>>>about Tucson and the University of Arizona.
>
>>>claimed one (of the two ever built) Harvard Mark I computers was
>>>'sent to Arizona'. The other went to Iowa. Where, likewise, nothing
>>>remains.
>>
>>So where in Arizona. GE did a great amount of research in Phoenix.
>>They were far away from corporate HQ so they could do almost
>>anything they wanted as long as the higher ups didn't notice.
>>
>>Was that before the GE site in Phoenix, which later was sold to
>>Groupe Bull.
>I'm not totally up on what went on in Phoenix but the Datanet series
>(including the DN30 which added to the GE225 made up the original
>Dartmouth system) and some of Multics were part of it. The GE link
>from http://www.36bit.org/ may lead to more information.
Hey thanks. I just went there and am going to look around, but
that reminds me of the early days of MicroNet - later CompuServe.
All communications was done in 7 bit mode - and when the PC becamse
popular they moved that to an 8-bit, and it was really strange on
some systems that weren't expecting it.
You'd get a gabage string that was the same each time. That was
the login. Type that. Another garbage string. Type password,
and then all was well.
However to get back to the point I was trying to make, to maximize
storage capabilites all the ASCII text of messages was stored in
7bit fields. They'd put five 7bit characters into one 36-bit
word, thus wasting only 1 bit, as opposed to using 8 bit characters
and wasting 4 bits. (7 * 5 = 35, 36 - 35 = 1 versus 8 * 4 = 32,
36 - 32 = 4). A 2.7 percent space wastage versus an 11.1% waste
Made a big difference in storage cost then.
josef....@gmail.com
> Does anyone remember a text adventure game called "The Pits" from the
> old online service "The Source", years before Compuserve bought them
> to spend much money on it. Does anyone know who the authors were, and
> whether the game was available in any other form?
>
>
Did you find the game?
Rich Alderson
--
Rich Alderson ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
the russet leaves of an autumn oak/inspire once again the failed poet/
to take up his pen/and essay to place his meagre words upon the page...
Michael Black
> 15 years later, josef....@gmail.com writes:
>
>> On Sunday, 7 February 1999 10:00:00 UTC+2, Eric Smith wrote:
>>> Does anyone remember a text adventure game called "The Pits" from the
>>> old online service "The Source", years before Compuserve bought them
>>> out? I never did get very far in the game, since I couldn't affort
>>> to spend much money on it. Does anyone know who the authors were, and
>>> whether the game was available in any other form?
>
>>> What kind of computers did The Source use, anyhow?
>
>>> Eric
>
>> Did you find the game?
>
> Seriously? A decade and a half pass, and you think to ask this?
>
Michael
Gene Buckle
Michael wrote:
> From Newsgroup: alt.folklore.computers
g.
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