End of brain fart: RISK
Heinz W. Wiggeshoff
I alluded to an ancient board game from the 60's
that might have made it to the computing world.
It was called RISK and was a source of endless
amusement to university students who couldn't
line up the dedicated usage of a computer system
in those days. B-)
Charles Richmond
also a PC version. I played an X Windows version
on an Aviion workstation before. It is played
with each player on his/her own workstation...
across a local area network. The source for that
version should be on the internet somewhere...
Source code for this (called XFrisk) and executables
for several platforms is available at:
<http://www.tuxick.net/xfrisk/>
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
Dennis Ritchie
"Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" <ab...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message news:bkdn1h$eev$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
One of the first largish programs I wrote all by myself
(not counting some Fortran numerical routines
as part of a summer internship at Bell Labs)
was a RISK calculator. It produced a table
of the probability of winning (n armies fight m armies).
It was written in MAD.
Dennis
Hank Oredson
"Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" <ab...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:bkdn1h$eev$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
We still have the board game, lurking in some storage box here :-)
That's what happens when you never throw things away ...
--
... Hank
Hank: http://horedson.home.att.net
W0RLI: http://w0rli.home.att.net
Heinz W. Wiggeshoff
"Dennis Ritchie" <d...@bell-labs.com> wrote in message
news:bkdudl$kr7a$1...@ID-156882.news.uni-berlin.de...
> One of the first largish programs I wrote all by myself
> (not counting some Fortran numerical routines
> as part of a summer internship at Bell Labs)
Did these routines ever make it to the IBM
Scientific Subroutine Package? Thirty-plus
years ago, there was an SSP for PL/I and
even ACM put out ALGOL routines.
> was a RISK calculator. It produced a table
> of the probability of winning (n armies fight m armies).
> It was written in MAD.
Ah yes - Mutually Assured Destruction. The computer
language which drove programmers insane and
sent disk drives dancing across the floors.
B-)
dgr...@cs.csbuak.edu
Oh, it made its way: http://www.tuxick.net/xfrisk/
--
David Griffith
dgr...@cs.csbuak.edu <-- Switch the 'b' and 'u'
Keith R. Williams
@freenet.carleton.ca says...
Yeah, I have that game. We played it a lot in college too. The
strategy is trivial though: Take Africa then Australia. Once
this is accomplished the rest falls out 90% of the time.
My son has an updated version. ...don't recall the name.
--
Keith
Dennis Ritchie
"Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" <ab...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message news:bke41h$ffe$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
wondered after quoting me,
> > One of the first largish programs I wrote all by myself
> > (not counting some Fortran numerical routines
> > as part of a summer internship at Bell Labs)
>
> Did these routines ever make it to the IBM
> Scientific Subroutine Package? Thirty-plus
> years ago, there was an SSP for PL/I and
> even ACM put out ALGOL routines.
Probably not, though conceivably via SHARE.
One calculated the Bessel J_n(x) functions (maybe Y_n as well,
I don't remember). The other calculated Clebsch-Gordan
coefficients. ....
> > was a RISK calculator. It produced a table
> > of the probability of winning (n armies fight m armies).
> > It was written in MAD.
>
> Ah yes - Mutually Assured Destruction. The computer
> language which drove programmers insane and
> sent disk drives dancing across the floors.
Don't knock MAD (the language). It was a mainstay
of the intro CS course I TAed for in the '60s, and the
compiler was much better for student use than Fortran.
Dennis
Heinz W. Wiggeshoff
> >
> > Ah yes - Mutually Assured Destruction. The computer
> > language which drove programmers insane and
> > sent disk drives dancing across the floors.
>
> Don't knock MAD (the language). It was a mainstay
> of the intro CS course I TAed for in the '60s, and the
> compiler was much better for student use than Fortran.
Well that was a joke that appeared out of the
not so blue skies. Actually, I've never met MAD,
but started computing with F. IV with WATFOR
in 68. Then in 69, I met APL\360, and from then
on I was perverted. (COBOL? Yuck!)
jmfb...@aol.com
"Dennis Ritchie" <d...@bell-labs.com> wrote:
>
>"Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" <ab...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:bke41h$ffe$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
>
>wondered after quoting me,
>> > was a RISK calculator. It produced a table
>> > of the probability of winning (n armies fight m armies).
>> > It was written in MAD.
>>
>> Ah yes - Mutually Assured Destruction. The computer
>> language which drove programmers insane and
>> sent disk drives dancing across the floors.
>
>Don't knock MAD (the language). It was a mainstay
>of the intro CS course I TAed for in the '60s, and the
>compiler was much better for student use than Fortran.
(I've never met MAD.) Why was it better? Are you talking
about the language or the execution of the compiler to
process all of the kiddie programs?
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
Charles Richmond
MAD stands for Michigan Algorithm Decoder, and was developed
by the University of Michigan for use with their operating
system, MTS.
Since Dennis Ritchie got his degrees at Harvard (ie, he
"pa'ked his ca' in Ha'va'd Ya'd"), I think that MAD must
have been distributed to Harvard and other schools.
ISTR that MAD was something like FORTRAN, but I have *not*
been able to google up anything significant on MAD. Perhaps
those here with more experience can post some details...
Dennis Ritchie
"Charles Richmond" <rich...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:3F6D2B8A...@comcast.net...
writes (after some quotes) ...
> > (I've never met MAD.) Why was it better? Are you talking
> > about the language or the execution of the compiler to
> > process all of the kiddie programs?
> >
...
> MAD stands for Michigan Algorithm Decoder, and was developed
> by the University of Michigan for use with their operating
> system, MTS.
Michigan Algorithm Decoder, yes. It was first, or at least
earlier, developed for UMES, U. Mich. Executive System,
a batch system for the IBM 709x; it preceded MTS, which was
for the 360/67.
>
> Since Dennis Ritchie got his degrees at Harvard (ie, he
> "pa'ked his ca' in Ha'va'd Ya'd"), I think that MAD must
> have been distributed to Harvard and other schools.
Both the language and the OS were distributed. We imported
UMES for the student course because it was well-geared
for lots of very small jobs. Our standard system at the
time (IBM's FMS) had a relatively huge per-job overhead
(mostly idle time while tapes were spun looking for the Fortran
compiler and its library, for each job in the batch tape).
We were charged by the clock.
> ISTR that MAD was something like FORTRAN, but I have *not*
> been able to google up anything significant on MAD. Perhaps
> those here with more experience can post some details...
MAD was somewhat Fortran-like. It was based on (or
inspired by) Algol 58, sometimes known as IAL.
Some of the distinguishing features were:
All keywords and phrases had >6 characters (variables <=6),
and generally could be abbreviated to first and last letter: e.g.
D'N for DIMENSION
I'R for INTEGER
N'R for NORMAL MODE IS INTEGER
In the listings, these would be expanded.
More interesting, it had a type definition facility in which
you could define new types and operators on them by giving
the machine-language code to be selected, in a simple
macro-like notation. E.g. things like complex arithmetic
(if this was not already built-in) and vector or matrix operations.
I forget the notation now, but I think overloading of existing
operators for the new types was possible.
MAD was also used extensively at MIT, at least on the CTSS
system: the CTSS kernel's scheduler was coded in it, as well
a some user-level things.
Dennis
Joe Morris
>"Charles Richmond" <rich...@comcast.net> wrote:
>?? writes (after some quotes) ...
>> > (I've never met MAD.) Why was it better? Are you talking
>> > about the language or the execution of the compiler to
>> > process all of the kiddie programs?
>> MAD stands for Michigan Algorithm Decoder, and was developed
>> by the University of Michigan for use with their operating
>> system, MTS.
>Michigan Algorithm Decoder, yes. It was first, or at least
>earlier, developed for UMES, U. Mich. Executive System,
>a batch system for the IBM 709x; it preceded MTS, which was
>for the 360/67.
From the introduction to the MAD manual, February 1962:
=====
The Michigan Algorithm Decoder (MAD) is a computer program which
translates algebraic statements describing algorithms to the
equivalent machine instructions. This descriptive language - also
called MAD - is explained in this manual. The language was
patterned after ALGOL 58, a proposed standard language for the
description of algorithms, with certain extensions and adaptations
which the authors believe make the language more useful. It should
be understood in what follows that a computer program may consist
of several sections utilizing the language described herein or
other languages if desired. The sections can be translated
independently and are linked together just prior to the actual
execution of the program.
The original translating program was written for an IBM 704 computer
with 8192 words of magnetic core storage, 8192 words of magnetic
drum storage and 6 magnetic tapes. The program was subsequently
written for the IBM 709/90 computers with 32768 words of core
storage. The features described in the appendices are included
only in this later version. The programming and the preparation
of this manual were done at the University of Michigan Computing
Center and the language has been widely used by University of
Michigan students and staff.
B. Arden
B. Galler
R. Graham
=====
>> Since Dennis Ritchie got his degrees at Harvard (ie, he
>> "pa'ked his ca' in Ha'va'd Ya'd"), I think that MAD must
>> have been distributed to Harvard and other schools.
>Both the language and the OS were distributed. We imported
>UMES for the student course because it was well-geared
>for lots of very small jobs. Our standard system at the
>time (IBM's FMS) had a relatively huge per-job overhead
>(mostly idle time while tapes were spun looking for the Fortran
>compiler and its library, for each job in the batch tape).
>We were charged by the clock.
Just in case someone here doesn't catch the reference, that
was the *wallclock*. CPU usage clocks would have no particular
use when you have only one user on the computer at a time, and
even if you were paying with funny money there was still a very
limited amount of time available.
>> ISTR that MAD was something like FORTRAN, but I have *not*
>> been able to google up anything significant on MAD. Perhaps
>> those here with more experience can post some details...
>MAD was somewhat Fortran-like. It was based on (or
>inspired by) Algol 58, sometimes known as IAL.
Here's an example program to transpose a square matrix _A_ of size _n_:
EXTERNAL FUNCTION (A,N)
ENTRY TO TRANS.
THROUGH BETA, FOR K = 1,1, K .GE. N
THROUGH BETA, FOR I = K+1, 1, I .G. N
Z = A(I,K)
A(I,K) = A(K,I)
BETA A(K,I) = Z
FUNCTION RETURN
INTEGER N,K,I
END OF FUNCTION
The call to this would be:
EXECUTE TRANS. (A, N)
A common joke among students in a MAD course was to use the instructor's
name for a subroutine, allowing them to write the command:
EXECUTE STALLMAN. (A, N)
>MAD was also used extensively at MIT, at least on the CTSS
>system: the CTSS kernel's scheduler was coded in it, as well
>a some user-level things.
MAD at the MIT Computer Center dates to at least 1962. I don't
recall it being wildly popular, but there were scheduled times
when only MAD programs were accepted in the dispatch office.
Joe Morris
Russ Holsclaw
MAD was my own first exposure to computers, at the University of
Maryland. The first course I took was called "Algorithmic
Analysis and Computer Programming (ENEE 80)". The course was
designed to introduce engineering students to computers, and
featured the MAD language (not FORTRAN, as one might expect).
One of the things that made MAD easy for beginning programmers
was the simplified I/O functions, which were similar to the
"data-directed" stream I/O functions of PL/I. In fact, when I
later learned PL/I while working at IBM, I wondered if
data-directed I/O functionality might have been inspired by MAD.
By data-directed, I mean that the "READ INPUT" statement would
read a series of constant-assignement expressions from the input
stream, naming variables in the program. It was somewhat
dangerous, in that the input stream could thus alter any variable
in the program, including those not intended to be accessible.
But it was a great learning tool. The PL/I version did allow you
to restrict exposed variables to the ones you wanted to be
changeable. MAD lacked this feature.
I used MAD to learn assembler for the 7094. I used the "$PRINT
OBJECT" compiler option and bought a copy of the 7094 Principles
of Operation. Both of these actions were outside the scope of the
class assignments, but I learned a good deal.
--
Russ Holsclaw
Heinz W. Wiggeshoff
"Joe Morris" <jcmo...@mitre.org> wrote in message
news:bkkgee$r8e$1...@newslocal.mitre.org...
...
> Here's an example program to transpose a square matrix _A_ of size
_n_:
<major chuckle> So that's where G. Weinberg found that
example of the superiority of PL/I ?
DECLARE A(N,N),
B(N,N) DEFINED A(2SUB,1SUB);
Sorry, my manuals are packed for a move, so
there may be syntax errors. The upshot is that
zero CPU time is used for the transpose.
See PL/I Programming, A Manual of Style
circa 1971.
Tom Van Vleck
> MAD was also used extensively at MIT, at least on the CTSS
> system: the CTSS kernel's scheduler was coded in it, as well
> a some user-level things.
My first programming course at MIT in 1961 used FORTRAN.
The next year, they switched over to using MAD, partly
because the MAD compiler was much faster.
On CTSS, by 1965, most B-core loaded commands were written
in MAD. They called the supervisor through a simple
assembly wrapper that usually just issued the TIA
instruction to cause a trap; the supervisor routines would
accept MAD style alling sequences and return directly to
the MAD program. For example, the MAIL program was written
in MAD and called on the supervisor to do file operations.
In 1965, the CTSS scheduler consisted of five modules,
SCDA, SCDB, SCDC, SCDD, and SCDE. All but one were written
in FAP. The SCDC module was written in MAD. This was the
module that picked the next user to run, and contained the
actual "scheduling algorithm." SCDC was worked on by many
people but Tom Hastings and Corby were the two names that I
remember. Because the algorithm was subject to much
tweaking, MAD was used to avoid introducing bugs. (Time
sharing scheduling was at the time an important research
topic, and CTSS was the first system to implement a
Greenberger-Corbato exponential scheduler, in which jobs
were run with a little time slice first, then exponentially
bigger slices at lower queues. In practice this caused
long running jobs to starve, so there was a scheduler
parameter QNTWAT that bumped a languishing job's priority
backup. But I digress.) In the early 70s, CTSS was still
being used by some projects while Multics matured: it was
maintained by a group at MIT Information Processing Center.
Some of the system programmers decided to rewrite SCDC in
FAP for efficiency; I prevailed on them to keep the MAD
statements as comments so we would know what was going on.
One consequence of having a MAD module in the supervisor
was that many CTSS supervisor tables were laid out in
COMMON storage. The many characteristics of a logged in
user, for example, were each kept in separate COMMON
arrays, laid out MAD wise, indexed by the "user number"
which was just the slot number. Thus the major decision
when setting up the files included in every FAP and MAD
prorgram in the supervisor was the number of slots, which
would be the maximum number of simultaneous users logged
in. Originally this was 30; we tried 50 and the system
couldn't handle it, so we ended up at 35, I think.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> In 1965, the CTSS scheduler consisted of five modules,
> SCDA, SCDB, SCDC, SCDD, and SCDE. All but one were written
> in FAP. The SCDC module was written in MAD. This was the
> module that picked the next user to run, and contained the
> actual "scheduling algorithm." SCDC was worked on by many
> people but Tom Hastings and Corby were the two names that I
> remember. Because the algorithm was subject to much
> tweaking, MAD was used to avoid introducing bugs. (Time
> sharing scheduling was at the time an important research
> topic, and CTSS was the first system to implement a
> Greenberger-Corbato exponential scheduler, in which jobs
> were run with a little time slice first, then exponentially
> bigger slices at lower queues. In practice this caused
> long running jobs to starve, so there was a scheduler
> parameter QNTWAT that bumped a languishing job's priority
> backup. But I digress.) In the early 70s, CTSS was still
> being used by some projects while Multics matured: it was
> maintained by a group at MIT Information Processing Center.
> Some of the system programmers decided to rewrite SCDC in
> FAP for efficiency; I prevailed on them to keep the MAD
> statements as comments so we would know what was going on.
cp/67 "release 1" appeared to have had a nearly identical scheduler;
however as the number of users went up ... the processing time in the
scheduler increased non-linear. release 1 cp/67 was measuring
something like 15 percent of total processor time in this bit of code
with something like 30 logged-on users. Harold Fienlieb at Lincoln
Labs rewrote the code to a much simpler (and faster) two level system
that drastically cut the pathlength processing and was made available
in "release 2" of cp/67 in '68 (the thruput of KISS more than offset
any downside of it being simpler).
Harold then joined NCSS ... when they formed cp/67 time-sharing
service bureau ... june of '68 ... slightly related:
http://www.decosta.com/Nomad/tales/history.html
some other people from Lincoln Labs and others formed another cp/67
time-sharing service bureau (IDC) some months later. misc. previous
postings regarding time-sharing service bureau
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html##timeshare
it as on harold's implementation that i did the dynamic adaptive,
fairshare, non-shareshare, pathlength, etc. stuff in late '68 and '69.
lots of old performance and scheduling posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#fairshare
and the "clock" replacement stuff
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#wsclock
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | ly...@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Al Kossow
> "Dennis Ritchie" <d...@bell-labs.com> wrote:
>
>> MAD was also used extensively at MIT, at least on the CTSS
>> system: the CTSS kernel's scheduler was coded in it, as well
>> a some user-level things.
>
A scan of the Univ of Illinois MAD User's manual is up now at
www.spies.com/aek/pdf/mad/L2-UOI-MAD1-2-RX_MADum_62.pdf
Joe Morris
>My first programming course at MIT in 1961 used FORTRAN.
>The next year, they switched over to using MAD, partly
>because the MAD compiler was much faster.
What course? For some reason 6.25 comes to mind but my non-parity-checked
memory doesn't associate MAD with it.
Joe Morris
Dennis Ritchie
"Al Kossow" <a...@spies.com> wrote in message news:bknifs$j8c$1...@spies.com...
...
> A scan of the Univ of Illinois MAD User's manual is up now at
> www.spies.com/aek/pdf/mad/L2-UOI-MAD1-2-RX_MADum_62.pdf
Excellent; thanks for this and the rest of the collection.
Dennis
Dennis Ritchie
"Tom Van Vleck" <th...@multicians.org> wrote in message news:thvv-37E005.1...@news.comcast.giganews.com...
writes about the use of MAD in the CTSS scheduler and adds,
> ..... Time
> sharing scheduling was at the time an important research
> topic, and CTSS was the first system to implement a
> Greenberger-Corbato exponential scheduler, in which jobs
> were run with a little time slice first, then exponentially
> bigger slices at lower queues. In practice this caused
> long running jobs to starve, so there was a scheduler
> parameter QNTWAT that bumped a languishing job's priority
> backup. But I digress.) ...
There was always the game with QUIT and RSTART.
If you had the patience to sit by and tend a long EPL
compilation, but were losing patience, stopping execution
with QUIT, then restarting with RSTART, would make
it look more interactive to the scheduler.
Dennis
Tom Van Vleck
My first programming course was 6.41, took it in fall 1961.
Prof. Goldstine lectured on the Rochester Machine.
You are probably thinking of 6.251, the famous course
called "system programming." This was the make-or-break
course in programming, kinda like organic for chemists. I
forget if any MAD was used in this course when I took it,
which would have been in 62 or 63... most of the course was
in FAP, and the last half or so involved making mods to the
CAP assembler using alters. A few years later 6.251 was
having students work on compilers, and then a few more
years and they were working on toy operating systems.
Al Kossow
You're welcome. I wonder if Joe Morris could comment on how similar
this document is to the one that he has.
Mel Wilson
So who's going to implement "99 bottles of beer on the wall"
for http://99-bottles-of-beer.ls-la.net/m.html ?
Regards. Mel.
Peter Flass
>
> There was always the game with QUIT and RSTART.
> If you had the patience to sit by and tend a long EPL
> compilation, but were losing patience, stopping execution
> with QUIT, then restarting with RSTART, would make
> it look more interactive to the scheduler.
>
reason. Now I have flashbacks to sitting in a terminal room at a KSR-33
hitting ... (What, break?) to interrupt a job and then continuing. Just
goes to show, no matter what the scheduling algorithm, some jack*ss
programmer will find a way to beat it.
Tom Van Vleck
If quit/start got disallowed, users would find other ways
to make their jobs look interactive. For example, we
discussed modifying the compilers to demand a keyboard
input every so often to make them look "interactive." When
demand for resources exceeded supply, something had to be
deferred. The quit/start trick penalized those jobs whose
owners were least impatient, probably as good as we could
do.
When we began using Multics to support itself, the scheduler
had the same feature, but the quit/start sequence caused
a lot of page faults and the community were all impatient
system programmers. So we hid the EPL compiler and only
allowed a daemon process to run it. Users submitted
requests to have compilations done by the daemon, which
put the results back in the user's home directory.
It was a kludge but it worked until the GE version of
PL/I became available.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> their jobs look interactive. For example, we discussed modifying
> the compilers to demand a keyboard input every so often to make them
> look "interactive." When demand for resources exceeded supply,
> something had to be deferred. The quit/start trick penalized those
> jobs whose owners were least impatient, probably as good as we could
> do.
>
> When we began using Multics to support itself, the scheduler had the
> same feature, but the quit/start sequence caused a lot of page
> faults and the community were all impatient system programmers. So
> we hid the EPL compiler and only allowed a daemon process to run it.
> Users submitted requests to have compilations done by the daemon,
> which put the results back in the user's home directory. It was a
> kludge but it worked until the GE version of PL/I became available.
cp/67 used terminal I/O as an indication of being interactive
... treating any kind of terminal i/o ... read or write ... as
indicative. terminal i/o also had the characteristic of promoting to
the top of the 10 level scheduling queue; release 1 ... sounds like it
was out of ctss.
release 2 of cp/67 simplified things into two level queue
... "interactive" and "the rest". Task placed into interactive queue
were ahead of "the rest" ... until they used a predetermined amount of
cpu ... went idle ... or had another terminal i/o.
various cpu bound applications created extremly pathological and
uncontrolled system-wide thruput characteristics.
One of the culprits was the CMS "BLIP" command which would do a
terminal I/O (that did nothing more than "wiggle" the 2741 type-ball)
after every two seconds of CPU use. A little creative hacking and the
CPU-use interval could be reduced to a couple hundred milliseconds.
For the fairshare/non-fairshare dynamic, adaptive feedback scheduling
... I implemented smooth recent CPU utilization tracking and priority
scheduling based on advisory deadlines (i.e. tasks were ordered for
dispatching by their advisory deadline ... not something close to
"interfactive" FIFO before all "the rest" FIFO). The advisory deadline
was based on a number of things, including recent resource
consumption, projected CPU use, as well as fairshare and non-fairshare
administrative specifications. Part of the whole trick was being able
to accumualte recent, smoothed resource useage ... and the advisory
deadline in shorter pathlength than the existing much more simple
minded implementation.
One of the characteristics was that live load situations became much
more predictable ... with the elimination of whole classes of
pathelogical situations. In effect, "interactive" had a slight preference
as long as the task wasn't exceeding its resource allocation. Lots
of "think time" (no recent cpu use) plus interactive was much more
predictable.
misc. past
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#fairshare
some past posts with regard to CMS "BLIP"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#12 360 Architecture, Multics, ... was (Re: X86 ultimate CISC? No.)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#56 wrt code first, document later
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#71 Early attempts at console humor?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#72 Early attempts at console humor?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#16 Early attempts at console humor?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#18 Early attempts at console humor?
Stephen H. Westin
> "Charles Richmond" <rich...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:3F6D2B8A...@comcast.net...
>
> writes (after some quotes) ...
>
> > > (I've never met MAD.) Why was it better? Are you talking
> > > about the language or the execution of the compiler to
> > > process all of the kiddie programs?
> > >
> ...
>
> > MAD stands for Michigan Algorithm Decoder, and was developed
> > by the University of Michigan for use with their operating
> > system, MTS.
>
> Michigan Algorithm Decoder, yes. It was first, or at least
> earlier, developed for UMES, U. Mich. Executive System,
> a batch system for the IBM 709x; it preceded MTS, which was
> for the 360/67.
And I don't recall whether it was ever ported to MTS. Perhaps it was;
I don't think it was ever popular there.
> > Since Dennis Ritchie got his degrees at Harvard (ie, he
> > "pa'ked his ca' in Ha'va'd Ya'd"), I think that MAD must
> > have been distributed to Harvard and other schools.
>
> Both the language and the OS were distributed. We imported
> UMES for the student course because it was well-geared
> for lots of very small jobs. Our standard system at the
> time (IBM's FMS) had a relatively huge per-job overhead
> (mostly idle time while tapes were spun looking for the Fortran
> compiler and its library, for each job in the batch tape).
> We were charged by the clock.
Ah, but did you get a portrait of Alfred E. Neuman on the line printer
when an error was encountered? I understand that happened at Michigan,
at least at first.
I worked at the Environmental Research Institute of Michigan (a
spinoff of the University), which ran a 7094 into the '80s. MAD was
the language of choice, and of course UMES was the OS. The application
was image processing for remote sensing.
--
-Stephen H. Westin
Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not
represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors.
Joe Morris
> Joe Morris <jcmo...@mitre.org> wrote:
>> Tom Van Vleck <th...@multicians.org> writes:
>>
>> >My first programming course at MIT in 1961 used FORTRAN.
>> >The next year, they switched over to using MAD, partly
>> >because the MAD compiler was much faster.
>>
>> What course? For some reason 6.25 comes to mind but my non-parity-checked
>> memory doesn't associate MAD with it.
>My first programming course was 6.41, took it in fall 1961.
> Prof. Goldstine lectured on the Rochester Machine.
Ah yes, "Introduction to Automatic Computation." Bob Fabry (then
a grad student) taught it for the next year or two.
>You are probably thinking of 6.251, the famous course
>called "system programming." This was the make-or-break
>course in programming, kinda like organic for chemists. I
>forget if any MAD was used in this course when I took it,
>which would have been in 62 or 63... most of the course was
>in FAP, and the last half or so involved making mods to the
>CAP assembler using alters. A few years later 6.251 was
>having students work on compilers, and then a few more
>years and they were working on toy operating systems.
And if I dug through my basement I think that I could come up with
a tape of the CAP source.
One thing I recall from the assignment page (for the rest of the
crew here: a major assignment was to take a very primative assembler
named CAP -- "Class Assembly Program" -- and add enhancements to
it, with specific points for certain (working!) features) was
a *strong* recommendation to stay away from the compiler.
CAP had a "compile" pseudo-op that took a string that looked like
a FORTRAN assignment statement. "Hairy" was one of the milder
words used to describe its implementation.
Joe Morris
Joe Morris
The copy on your server is five months newer than mine: the cover
on yours carries a datestamp of 20 June 1962; mine shows February
of the same year.
On the Acknowledgements page of your copy (page 0.6) the first
sentence credits the February version (and its authors) as the
source for the bulk of the document's contents. A quick spot
check seems to confirm this.
Mechanically, my copy has a blue cover with the MAD magazine logo
(the fantastically-embellished letters "MAD") with the remainder
of the letters of "Michigan Algorithm Decoder" descending
vertically. Also, your copy has no index, but mine has no table
of contents.
Joe Morris
Charlie Gibbs
(Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes:
>various cpu bound applications created extremly pathological and
>uncontrolled system-wide thruput characteristics.
One of Sperry->Unisys OS/3's more brain-damaged features was that it
would not timeslice jobs of equal priority. If you ran a CPU-bound
job (or your program went into a loop), all other jobs of equal or
lower priority would grind to a halt until the CPU-bound job either
finished, was killed, or voluntarily relinquished the processor.
We normally ran the TP monitor at high priority, so users' terminals
got good response (well, as good as it got) regardless. But short of
manually modifying the priority on every // EXEC statement in every
piece of JCL in the shop (or manually fiddling with priorities from
the console at run time) you were faced with this problem whenever,
for instance, you ran a large sort. Later versions of OS/3 allowed
your sysgen to configure a default priority that was other than the
lowest - then you only had to modify your JCL for the CPU-bound steps.
This led to some interesting "priority wars". One shop went into
panic mode during every payroll run, no matter how routine. One
step, which was heavily CPU-bound, would write one block to a tape
every 5 seconds or so. At the same time I was trying to copy a
large file to tape - minimal CPU usage. But the department head
insisted on bumping the payroll job to top priority, so my copy
was pretty much stalled. When his back was turned, I would sneak
over to the console and swap the priorities so that my job would
drive my tape drive at full speed. The payroll job didn't slow
down at all - a fact which was obvious to anyone who watched how
often blocks were being written to tape - but that didn't stop
people from freaking out and thinking that the payroll was being
intolerably delayed. Sigh...
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Dennis Ritchie
"Stephen H. Westin" <westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu> wondered
in message news:uy8wei...@graphics.cornell.edu...
...
[concerning MAD usage at Harvard]
> Ah, but did you get a portrait of Alfred E. Neuman on the line printer
> when an error was encountered? I understand that happened at Michigan,
> at least at first.
Likewise, "at least at first." It got old soon, especially since
the TAs were responsible for bursting and distributing the
output stack to the students. It could be turned off, and was.
The fewer pages the better.
Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
> I worked at the Environmental Research Institute of Michigan (a
> spinoff of the University), which ran a 7094 into the '80s. MAD was
> the language of choice, and of course UMES was the OS. The application
> was image processing for remote sensing.
.
Dennis
jimmydevice
> "Stephen H. Westin" <westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu> wondered
> in message news:uy8wei...@graphics.cornell.edu...
> ...
>
> Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
>
>
>>I worked at the Environmental Research Institute of Michigan (a
>>spinoff of the University), which ran a 7094 into the '80s. MAD was
>>the language of choice, and of course UMES was the OS. The application
>>was image processing for remote sensing.
>
> .
> Dennis
>
>
and grade reports.
Thanks for the memories Dennis!
Jim Davis.
Brian Inglis
jimmydevice <jimmy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Dennis Ritchie wrote:
>> "Stephen H. Westin" <westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu> wondered
>> in message news:uy8wei...@graphics.cornell.edu...
>> ...
><snip>
>> Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
>>
>A machine made in hell, developed to destroy forms, usually checks
>and grade reports.
>Thanks for the memories Dennis!
Anyone seen continuous tractor fed forms / printers used in the
last decade?
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada
--
Brian....@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
fake address use address above to reply
Charles Richmond
>
> On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:19:13 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers,
> jimmydevice <jimmy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Dennis Ritchie wrote:
> >> "Stephen H. Westin" <westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu> wondered
> >> in message news:uy8wei...@graphics.cornell.edu...
> >> ...
> ><snip>
> >> Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
> >>
> >A machine made in hell, developed to destroy forms, usually checks
> >and grade reports.
> >Thanks for the memories Dennis!
>
> Anyone seen continuous tractor fed forms / printers used in the
> last decade?
>
house. I use it to produce listings every once in a while.
Recently, I even printed some "mailing labels" with it for
a charity group that I belong to. I have enough paper to
last a while...but I hope I can still find some continuous
tractor fed forms available when I need them.
A few of the local veterinarians use tractor fed postcard
forms to print reminders to get your dog or cat vaccinated.
ISTM that the dot matrix form feed printer is far from
being a dead dinosaur.
arargh3...@now.at.arargh.com
<d...@bell-labs.com> wrote:
>
>"Stephen H. Westin" <westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu> wondered
>in message news:uy8wei...@graphics.cornell.edu...
> ...
>
>[concerning MAD usage at Harvard]
>> Ah, but did you get a portrait of Alfred E. Neuman on the line printer
>> when an error was encountered? I understand that happened at Michigan,
>> at least at first.
>
>Likewise, "at least at first." It got old soon, especially since
>the TAs were responsible for bursting and distributing the
>output stack to the students. It could be turned off, and was.
>The fewer pages the better.
>
>Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
If you mean the mechanical variety, not for about 15 years. It sat
next to the decollator.
But, every time I print a check, I have to burst it into sections. :-)
--
Arargh309 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html
To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address.
arargh3...@now.at.arargh.com
<Brian....@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:19:13 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers,
>jimmydevice <jimmy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Dennis Ritchie wrote:
>>> "Stephen H. Westin" <westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu> wondered
>>> in message news:uy8wei...@graphics.cornell.edu...
>>> ...
>><snip>
>>> Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
>>>
>>A machine made in hell, developed to destroy forms, usually checks
>>and grade reports.
>>Thanks for the memories Dennis!
>
>Anyone seen continuous tractor fed forms / printers used in the
>last decade?
Sure. I know someone who still prints reports on a tractor feed line
printer. Of course he will probably have to stop when both it and the
spare break. :-)
Ignatios Souvatzis
> If quit/start got disallowed, users would find other ways
> to make their jobs look interactive.
Reminds me of a (4.4BSD ?) scheduler design shortcoming that was fixed
in NetBSD (and I guess, related systems) a few years ago:
With modern CPUSs (where modern includes 50 MHz 68060, see below) a
compiler run is much shorter than the scheduler needed to lower its
priority.
(I am no scheduler guru, but a process that uses up its timeslice gets
a lower priority for its next timeslice, a process that gives up its
timeslice to wait for I/O gets a bonus when it is runnable next.)
For example: when I ran a NetBSD (or just a NetBSD kernel) compilation
on my 68060 machine, interactive performance sucked.
Especially harmful is that the X server is fairly long-running and thus
does get prioritized properly by the scheduler, even when its average
CPU needs are low.
The change done was:
- current penalty of parent process is the starting value of the child
processes penalty
- current penalty of a terminating process is added to the parent.
Suddenly, my old machine became useful for interactive work, even when
a big make job was running.
Regards,
-is
Peter Ibbotson
news:7vu4nv84456ptil2k...@4ax.com...
> Anyone seen continuous tractor fed forms / printers used in the
> last decade?
Yep they're still in use. Frequently for multi-part stationary. Useful for
delivery drivers to leave behind a copy while taking the signed orginal
away.
Newbury Data still make "industrial strength" machines for these purposes,
we haven't sold one this year, but did sell some last year.
--
Work pet...@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply
Home pe...@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX
step
> jimmydevice <jimmy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Dennis Ritchie wrote:
> >> "Stephen H. Westin" <westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu> wondered
> >> in message news:uy8wei...@graphics.cornell.edu...
> >> ...
> ><snip>
> >> Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
> >>
> >A machine made in hell, developed to destroy forms, usually checks
> >and grade reports.
> >Thanks for the memories Dennis!
>
> Anyone seen continuous tractor fed forms / printers used in the
> last decade?
>
Until recently we were still using both here stopped around 2 months ago.
There is still one outlying branch here still using both 8-)
jmfb...@aol.com
igna...@newton.cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis) wrote:
>Tom Van Vleck <th...@multicians.org> writes:
>
>> If quit/start got disallowed, users would find other ways
>> to make their jobs look interactive.
>
>Reminds me of a (4.4BSD ?) scheduler design shortcoming that was fixed
>in NetBSD (and I guess, related systems) a few years ago:
>
>With modern CPUSs (where modern includes 50 MHz 68060, see below) a
>compiler run is much shorter than the scheduler needed to lower its
>priority.
>
>(I am no scheduler guru, but a process that uses up its timeslice gets
>a lower priority for its next timeslice, a process that gives up its
>timeslice to wait for I/O gets a bonus when it is runnable next.)
Huh? This doesn't make sense. I'm working with a TOPS-10 bias
and timesharing on the brain. I don't see the advantage of
awarding time slice queues based on history. The OS spends
more its time deciding than just picking one and running the job.
If you want to use bias, you don't put it in the schedular
guts; you make it settable as the user level or sysadmin level.
>
>For example: when I ran a NetBSD (or just a NetBSD kernel) compilation
>on my 68060 machine, interactive performance sucked.
>
>Especially harmful is that the X server is fairly long-running and thus
>does get prioritized properly by the scheduler, even when its average
>CPU needs are low.
>
>The change done was:
>
>- current penalty of parent process is the starting value of the child
> processes penalty
>
>- current penalty of a terminating process is added to the parent.
>
>Suddenly, my old machine became useful for interactive work, even when
>a big make job was running.
Sounds like too much accounting. REminds me of going shopping with
somebody who can't decide which color.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
Ignatios Souvatzis
> In article <bkueat$18ho$1...@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>,
> igna...@newton.cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis) wrote:
> Huh? This doesn't make sense. I'm working with a TOPS-10 bias
> and timesharing on the brain. I don't see the advantage of
> awarding time slice queues based on history. The OS spends
> more its time deciding than just picking one and running the job.
>
> If you want to use bias, you don't put it in the schedular
> guts; you make it settable as the user level or sysadmin level.
In Unix, that's the "nice" value - but that's just the baseline for
the above algorithm.
>>The change done was:
>>
>>- current penalty of parent process is the starting value of the child
>> processes penalty
>>
>>- current penalty of a terminating process is added to the parent.
>>
>>Suddenly, my old machine became useful for interactive work, even when
>>a big make job was running.
>
> Sounds like too much accounting.
That's one longword copy at fork() time (instead of a longword set to
constant) + a longword addition at _exit() time. Does sound fine to me :-)
Regards,
-is
jmfb...@aol.com
<grin> And it's not the action of the copy that improved it?
Or the placement of the copy instruction that improved it?
Stranger things have happened.
Ignatios Souvatzis
> <grin> And it's not the action of the copy that improved it?
> Or the placement of the copy instruction that improved it?
The improvement was felt along a dozen CPU architectures, so... unlikely :-)
Regards,
-is
Charles Richmond
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
> Sure. I know someone who still prints reports on a tractor feed line
> printer. Of course he will probably have to stop when both it and the
> spare break. :-)
>
probably find dot matrix printers for a song. Also, I know that
Okidata still manufactures and sells dot matrix printers.
I used to work at a company that built computer systems to
control bulk oil terminals, where the big tank trucks load.
In our system, a dot matrix printer was used to print the
Bill of Lading document. It had to be done using special
quadruplicate forms, which are really only possible because
of "carbonless forms"...otherwise the forms would be too
think IMHO. The truck driver took one BOL copy. The other
three copies went to different places to be filed...
Steve O'Hara-Smith
BI> Anyone seen continuous tractor fed forms / printers used in the
BI> last decade?
Yes - there's one just down the corridor from my office permanently
loaded with fanfold labels, it even runs occasionally.
--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors
The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see:
| http://www.sohara.org/
Joe Morris
>Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
No, but I suspect that they're in hiding at an undiscosed location
along with the decollators.
Joe Morris
Joe Morris
>Anyone seen continuous tractor fed forms / printers used in the
>last decade?
They weren't being used, but I've seen them on the shelf at Micro Center,
on both 9-pin and 24-pin printers. And there's apparently enough call
for them that the local office supply houses (Staples, Office Depot,
etc.) stock fanfold paper.
Joe Morris
Charlie Gibbs
(jimmydevice) writes:
>Dennis Ritchie wrote:
>
>> Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
>
>A machine made in hell, developed to destroy forms, usually checks
>and grade reports.
My theory on continuous forms was that the purpose of the
perforations between sheets was to strengthen the paper
so that it would it would tear somewhere else.
Lon Stowell
> On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:19:13 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers,
> jimmydevice <jimmy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Dennis Ritchie wrote:
>>> "Stephen H. Westin" <westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu> wondered
>>> in message news:uy8wei...@graphics.cornell.edu...
>>> ...
>><snip>
>>> Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
>>>
>>A machine made in hell, developed to destroy forms, usually checks
>>and grade reports.
>>Thanks for the memories Dennis!
>
> Anyone seen continuous tractor fed forms / printers used in the
> last decade?
Does it count if the "form" is really the backing paper
for small sticky labels and the printer is actually a
specialized manufacturing bar code, part number, etc.
printer?
Stan Barr
>jimmydevice <jimmy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Dennis Ritchie wrote:
>>> "Stephen H. Westin" <westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu> wondered
>>> in message news:uy8wei...@graphics.cornell.edu...
>>> ...
>><snip>
>>> Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
>>>
>>A machine made in hell, developed to destroy forms, usually checks
>>and grade reports.
>>Thanks for the memories Dennis!
>
Not to mention decollators that would occasionally trash my payslips :-)
>Anyone seen continuous tractor fed forms / printers used in the
>last decade?
Yep, got a Star NL-10 right beside me - and I've found a source of greenbar
paper (must get around to ordering some!)
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com
(Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.)
The future was never like this!
Alfred Falk
news:MPG.19d4f1b3a...@enews.newsguy.com:
> In article <bkdn1h$eev$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>, ab528
> @freenet.carleton.ca says...
>> In a thread that has gone on way too long B-)
>> I alluded to an ancient board game from the 60's
>> that might have made it to the computing world.
>> It was called RISK and was a source of endless
>> amusement to university students who couldn't
>> line up the dedicated usage of a computer system
>> in those days. B-)
>
> Yeah, I have that game. We played it a lot in college too. The
> strategy is trivial though: Take Africa then Australia. Once
> this is accomplished the rest falls out 90% of the time.
>
> My son has an updated version. ...don't recall the name.
Oh, it's still very much available
http://www.hasbro.com/pl/page.viewproduct/product_id.9491/dn/games/defau
lt.cfm
Last year they put out a "Lord of the Rings" version, also still
available.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
A L B E R T A Alfred Falk fa...@arc.ab.ca
R E S E A R C H Information Systems Dept (780)450-5185
C O U N C I L 250 Karl Clark Road
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
http://www.arc.ab.ca/ T6N 1E4
http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/
Joe Morris
>jimmy...@hotmail.com (jimmydevice) writes:
>>Dennis Ritchie wrote:
>>> Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
>>A machine made in hell, developed to destroy forms, usually checks
>>and grade reports.
>My theory on continuous forms was that the purpose of the
>perforations between sheets was to strengthen the paper
>so that it would it would tear somewhere else.
I take it that neither of you own a car with a bumper sticker that
reads "I <heart> my burster"?
Joe Morris
Lon Stowell
I've never owned a car with any bumpersticker, much less one
with a [heart] on it. The only such sticker I can ever see
myself using would be "I [heart] my carcrusher" for one last
ride.
arargh3...@now.at.arargh.com
<rich...@comcast.net> wrote:
>arargh3...@NOW.AT.arargh.com wrote:
>>
>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>>
>> Sure. I know someone who still prints reports on a tractor feed line
>> printer. Of course he will probably have to stop when both it and the
>> spare break. :-)
>>
>Just tell him to go down to the local thrift store and he will
>probably find dot matrix printers for a song. Also, I know that
>Okidata still manufactures and sells dot matrix printers.
They are 900LPM and 600LPM printers. He is not likley to be able to
stand a 60LPM (or so) printer.
>
>I used to work at a company that built computer systems to
>control bulk oil terminals, where the big tank trucks load.
>In our system, a dot matrix printer was used to print the
>Bill of Lading document. It had to be done using special
>quadruplicate forms, which are really only possible because
>of "carbonless forms"...otherwise the forms would be too
>think IMHO. The truck driver took one BOL copy. The other
>three copies went to different places to be filed...
I have used a Printronics P600 on 6 & 8 part forms. Of course, I have
to modifiy the printer somewhat.
Keith R. Williams
Lawn.S...@Komkast.net says...
My wife wanted the one that said: "I've been in a bad mood since
the house fell on my sister". I haven't been able to find it
though. It would be perfect for her door at work.
--
Keith
Brian Inglis
jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>In article <bkueat$18ho$1...@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>,
> igna...@newton.cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis) wrote:
>>Tom Van Vleck <th...@multicians.org> writes:
>>
>>> If quit/start got disallowed, users would find other ways
>>> to make their jobs look interactive.
>>
>>Reminds me of a (4.4BSD ?) scheduler design shortcoming that was fixed
>>in NetBSD (and I guess, related systems) a few years ago:
>>
>>With modern CPUSs (where modern includes 50 MHz 68060, see below) a
>>compiler run is much shorter than the scheduler needed to lower its
>>priority.
>>
>>(I am no scheduler guru, but a process that uses up its timeslice gets
>>a lower priority for its next timeslice, a process that gives up its
>>timeslice to wait for I/O gets a bonus when it is runnable next.)
>
>Huh? This doesn't make sense. I'm working with a TOPS-10 bias
>and timesharing on the brain. I don't see the advantage of
>awarding time slice queues based on history. The OS spends
>more its time deciding than just picking one and running the job.
Standard multi-level round-robin scheduling. Separate priority
queues for interactive (didn't use its scheduled timeslice run
quantum), normal (may use run quantum), and compute bound
processes (used all of its run quantum).
Provides O(1) access: pick the process off the front of the
highest priority queue.
Sometimes the quantum allowed on each queue is different, to
allocate CPU more fairly: the run quantum on the normal queue may
be some multiplier of the quantum on the interactive queue, and
that on the compute bound queue may be some multiplier of the
quantum on the normal queue.
Often schedules one process from the next lower level queue when
all processes on the next higher level queue have been scheduled
once; prevents compute bound processes being starved of CPU.
If the run quantum is not used up, the process moves up to a
queue with a higher priority and/or smaller quantum, otherwise it
moves down to a queue with a lower priority and/or a larger
quantum.
>If you want to use bias, you don't put it in the schedular
>guts; you make it settable as the user level or sysadmin level.
Admin / user settable priority levels are factored into and
influence scheduling decisions, in a way that doesn't use much
CPU to decide where in the queues the process goes.
>>For example: when I ran a NetBSD (or just a NetBSD kernel) compilation
>>on my 68060 machine, interactive performance sucked.
>>
>>Especially harmful is that the X server is fairly long-running and thus
>>does get prioritized properly by the scheduler, even when its average
>>CPU needs are low.
>>
>>The change done was:
>>
>>- current penalty of parent process is the starting value of the child
>> processes penalty
>>
>>- current penalty of a terminating process is added to the parent.
>>
>>Suddenly, my old machine became useful for interactive work, even when
>>a big make job was running.
>
>Sounds like too much accounting. REminds me of going shopping with
>somebody who can't decide which color.
Just influences where in the queues the process goes at the end
of its timeslice.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> Standard multi-level round-robin scheduling. Separate priority
> queues for interactive (didn't use its scheduled timeslice run
> quantum), normal (may use run quantum), and compute bound
> processes (used all of its run quantum).
> Provides O(1) access: pick the process off the front of the
> highest priority queue.
so that was the 10-level queue stuff from release 1 cp/67 (and
presumably ctss) ... as well as pretty much the two-level queue
stuff from lincoln labs in release 2 cp/67.
what I did circa '69 (undergraduate ... but ibm shipped in products)
for dynamic, adaptive, fairshare/non-fairshare, etc ... was to
calculate an advisory deadline dispatching priority ... and all tasks
(regardless of queue, interactive, batch, etc) were odered by their
advisory deadline dispatching priority.
the advisory deadline was the current time plus an increment placing
it some time in the future ... at which time they should have consumed
the allocated resources ... and the process would be repeated.
the "increment" was a calculation based on their administrative
priority, smooth avg. of recently used resources compared to target
administrative resournce consumption ... and the size of CPU
allocation for this queue stay. To the extent that "interactive" tasks
had a "nearer" deadline than "outer" tasks ... was based on the amount
of cpu/quanta being allocated was significantly smaller.
In effect, "interactive" no longer got better dispatching priority to
consume more cpu resources .... however they were allowed to consume
their target resources in much smaller, more frequent increments; but
the "more frequent" calculation was strictly proportional to the size
of the allocation. as previously mentioned ... one of the tricks in
all this implementation was to actually use fewer instructions than
the much more simple minded approach that it replaced.
minor refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#fairshare
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | ly...@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
jmfb...@aol.com
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>In article <vn4reg2...@corp.supernews.com> jimmy...@hotmail.com
>(jimmydevice) writes:
>
>>Dennis Ritchie wrote:
>>
>>> Speaking folklorically, anyone seen a burster recently?
>>
>>A machine made in hell, developed to destroy forms, usually checks
>>and grade reports.
>
>My theory on continuous forms was that the purpose of the
>perforations between sheets was to strengthen the paper
>so that it would it would tear somewhere else.
>
a good question for that other newsgroup :-).
Charlie Gibbs
k...@attglobal.net (Keith R. Williams) writes:
>In article <CTJcb.151098$mp.7...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>,
>Lawn.S...@Komkast.net says...
>
>> Approximately 9/25/03 15:16, Joe Morris uttered for posterity:
>>
>>> I take it that neither of you own a car with a bumper sticker that
>>> reads "I <heart> my burster"?
>>
>> I've never owned a car with any bumpersticker, much less one
>> with a [heart] on it. The only such sticker I can ever see
>> myself using would be "I [heart] my carcrusher" for one last
>> ride.
I'd like to get hold of the one I've heard people mentioning.
It contains no special symbols, just the pure text message:
I HEART MY DOG HEAD
>My wife wanted the one that said: "I've been in a bad mood since
>the house fell on my sister". I haven't been able to find it
>though. It would be perfect for her door at work.
Sounds like a ripoff from Beetlejuice.
Keith R. Williams
cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid says...
> In article <MPG.19dd64d2b...@enews.newsguy.com>
> k...@attglobal.net (Keith R. Williams) writes:
>
> >In article <CTJcb.151098$mp.7...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>,
> >Lawn.S...@Komkast.net says...
> >
> >> Approximately 9/25/03 15:16, Joe Morris uttered for posterity:
> >>
> >>> I take it that neither of you own a car with a bumper sticker that
> >>> reads "I <heart> my burster"?
> >>
> >> I've never owned a car with any bumpersticker, much less one
> >> with a [heart] on it. The only such sticker I can ever see
> >> myself using would be "I [heart] my carcrusher" for one last
> >> ride.
>
> I'd like to get hold of the one I've heard people mentioning.
> It contains no special symbols, just the pure text message:
>
> I HEART MY DOG HEAD
>
> >My wife wanted the one that said: "I've been in a bad mood since
> >the house fell on my sister". I haven't been able to find it
> >though. It would be perfect for her door at work.
>
> Sounds like a ripoff from Beetlejuice.
I've seen the movie a bunch of times, but hadn't caught that in there.
--
Keith
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
hore...@att.net "Hank Oredson" writes:
> "Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" <ab...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message
> news:bkdn1h$eev$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
> > In a thread that has gone on way too long B-)
> > I alluded to an ancient board game from the 60's
> > that might have made it to the computing world.
> > It was called RISK and was a source of endless
> > amusement to university students who couldn't
> > line up the dedicated usage of a computer system
> > in those days. B-)
>
>
> We still have the board game, lurking in some storage box here :-)
> That's what happens when you never throw things away ...
About 6--7 years ago, a number of we regulars at one of the pubs in our
local small town in Oxfordshire decided to drag a box out from the
cupboard under the stairs and start playing it (in the pub) each
Wednesday evening.
I occasionally [2--5 per annum] receive e-mail from people who have
somehow or other stumbled upon the above URL and want to join our game.
However, they've all[1] been under the misapprehension that we're playing
the game electronically: the concept that we might be sitting down
physically around a table with a pint of bitter hasn't crossed their
minds!
[1] We've actually had one contact from someone who was going to be in
the area and were delighted to welcome him along for that week.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} b...@dsl.co.uk
"We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are
untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them".
George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
k...@attglobal.net "Keith R. Williams" writes:
> Yeah, I have that game. We played it a lot in college too. The
> strategy is trivial though: Take Africa then Australia. Once
> this is accomplished the rest falls out 90% of the time.
A strategy that is not much use if one is playing with Missions; playing
our games each week in the pub (see <news:106455...@dsl.co.uk>) would
not be a viable proposition if we always played World Domination, since
such a game usually takes more than the three hours available to us.
Charles Richmond
entities in the U.S. that use 80-column *punch* *cards*!!!
What makes anyone think that the dot-matrix printer is going
away faster than punch cards???
I remember reading a recent (last few months) newspaper article
from the internet...about some places that still use punch cards.
IIRC, some government entity in Los Angeles was one...
Charles Richmond
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
> My wife wanted the one that said: "I've been in a bad mood since
> the house fell on my sister". I haven't been able to find it
> though. It would be perfect for her door at work.
>
"Drive like hell, and you'll get there."
<story>
A man pulls his car up behind a woman who is stopped
at a traffic light. The bumper sticker on her car reads:
"Honk if you love Jesus." So the man honks his car horn.
The woman sticks her head out of the car window and shouts:
"Can't you see the damn light is red!!!"
</story>
Brian Inglis
If you mean smallish circular holes, that's so you can reinforce
them with a steel bar (rebar); if you mean a couple of big square
holes, and fairly thin concrete, that's to keep weight down.
Wanted to build a computer room with concrete block walls for
decent security on an upper floor of a high rise office building,
but engineering told us we couldn't because it would exceed the
floor loading; had to settle for double extra thick gyproc walls
with chicken wire between the layers.
Charlie Gibbs
>--
> Keith
Peter Flass
>
> On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:19:13 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers,
> jimmydevice <jimmy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Dennis Ritchie wrote:
> >> "Stephen H. Westin" <westin*nos...@graphics.cornell.edu> wondered
> >> in message news:uy8wei...@graphics.cornell.edu...
> >> ...
> ><snip>
> >>
Still got 'em. We print bills on NCR pinfeed forms and burst them.
I've suggested a couple of times switching them to a laser printer, but
no one is interested. Still, we're not quite so much of a museum as we
were. We recently got rid of our 3420 9-track tapes and our 3480's.
Now we only have two kinds of tape drive.
> >A machine made in hell, developed to destroy forms, usually checks
> >and grade reports.
> >Thanks for the memories Dennis!
>
> Anyone seen continuous tractor fed forms / printers used in the
> last decade?
>
Peter Flass
> >
> > Anyone seen continuous tractor fed forms / printers used in the
> > last decade?
> >
> house. I use it to produce listings every once in a while.
> Recently, I even printed some "mailing labels" with it for
> a charity group that I belong to. I have enough paper to
> last a while...but I hope I can still find some continuous
> tractor fed forms available when I need them.
>
There's a lot of this stuff. We use tractor-feed fanfold paper in our
laser "system" printer. We refused to take program listings on
cut-sheet paper, and I'm a little skeptical of printers that take
roll-fed paper and fold it mechanically. You shouldn't have any problem
getting paper.
Joe Morris
>Come on, people!!! There are still companies and government
>entities in the U.S. that use 80-column *punch* *cards*!!!
>What makes anyone think that the dot-matrix printer is going
>away faster than punch cards???
>I remember reading a recent (last few months) newspaper article
>from the internet...about some places that still use punch cards.
>IIRC, some government entity in Los Angeles was one...
Details, please? I won't say that nobody is using them, but the
maintenance for punch-card equipment (and the issue of disaster-
recovery support) should have forced them to be retired them long ago.
And before someone points it out I *am* aware of some of the antique
system issues involved in the currently active circus playing in
the California election system. <grin>
Joe Morris
Charlie Gibbs
In article <MPG.19de4a61e...@enews.newsguy.com>
It's in the dinner scene, just before the ghosts do the Harry Belafonte
number on Delia's high society friends. The dialogue runs something
like this (modulo a few fading brain cells):
Grace: Is this one of your "paranormal" phenomena?
Otho: Don't mind her. She's upset because someone dropped a house
on her sister.
It took a while before I clued in to the reference.
To further the topic drift, could you imagine how politically
incorrect it would be nowadays to sing and celebrate as
enthusiastically about someone's death as the Munchkins did?
Bill Leary
news:bl2eba$sj0$1...@newslocal.mitre.org...
> Details, please? I won't say that nobody is using them, but the
> maintenance for punch-card equipment (and the issue of disaster-
> recovery support) should have forced them to be retired them long ago.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.03/punchcards.html
- Bill
William Hamblen
<Brian....@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:
>Wanted to build a computer room with concrete block walls for
>decent security on an upper floor of a high rise office building,
>but engineering told us we couldn't because it would exceed the
>floor loading; had to settle for double extra thick gyproc walls
>with chicken wire between the layers.
The drywall walls probably were stronger and more fire resistant.
Ordinary 8" hollow concrete blocks are good for about 1 hr at best.
You can build a drywall and steel stud partition with almost any fire
resistance rating you want. Four layers of 5/8" class X drywall will
give you 2 hr.
Joe Morris
>To further the topic drift, could you imagine how politically
>incorrect it would be nowadays to sing and celebrate as
>enthusiastically about someone's death as the Munchkins did?
Oh...I'm not sure of that, at least to the extent that I expect there
would be a huge production number in the White House if someone reported
that Sadaam had been "terminated with extreme prejudice."
Suggested song title: "Ding, Dong, the butcher's dead!"
Don't forget the Mark Russell song on the same subject from a year or so back:
We're off to kill the butcher,
The butcher of Bagdhad, Iraq!
...which I heard in the (live) show titled "Mark Russell and his Piano of
Mass Destruction"
Joe Morris
Keith R. Williams
cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid says...
> [Let's try again, this time with my replies added...]
>
> In article <MPG.19de4a61e...@enews.newsguy.com>
> k...@attglobal.net (Keith R. Williams) writes:
>
> >In article <1210.399T1...@kltpzyxm.invalid>,
> >cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid says...
> >
> >> In article <MPG.19dd64d2b...@enews.newsguy.com>
> >> k...@attglobal.net (Keith R. Williams) writes:
> >>
> >>>My wife wanted the one that said: "I've been in a bad mood since
> >>>the house fell on my sister". I haven't been able to find it
> >>>though. It would be perfect for her door at work.
> >>
> >> Sounds like a ripoff from Beetlejuice.
> >
> >I've seen the movie a bunch of times, but hadn't caught that in there.
>
> It's in the dinner scene, just before the ghosts do the Harry Belafonte
> number on Delia's high society friends. The dialogue runs something
> like this (modulo a few fading brain cells):
>
> Grace: Is this one of your "paranormal" phenomena?
>
> Otho: Don't mind her. She's upset because someone dropped a house
> on her sister.
>
> It took a while before I clued in to the reference.
Thanks. I'll watch for it next time I see it (it shows up on
cable regularly).
> To further the topic drift, could you imagine how politically
> incorrect it would be nowadays to sing and celebrate as
> enthusiastically about someone's death as the Munchkins did?
You want politically incorrect. Try getting away with "Blazing
Saddles" today!
--
Keith
Charles Richmond
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
> Saddles" today!
>
the movie (less than 10 years old) called "Life Stinks"??? And
the broadway show "The Producers" had a song called: "Springtime
for Hitler". Mel Brooks gets away with a lot...but I think that
a lot of Jews *hate* him.
Charles Richmond
dictator was done away with. Let's face it...abusive, tyrannical,
slovenly, butchering, mass murderers are just *not* popular.
(Unless they are Republicans...)
Don Chiasson
"Charles Richmond" <rich...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3F75EC11...@comcast.net...
> "Keith R. Williams" wrote:
> >
> > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
> >
> > You want politically incorrect. Try getting away with "Blazing
> > Saddles" today!
> >
> Mel Brooks still gets away with this kind of stuff. How about
> the movie (less than 10 years old) called "Life Stinks"??? And
> the broadway show "The Producers" had a song called: "Springtime
> for Hitler". Mel Brooks gets away with a lot...but I think that
> a lot of Jews *hate* him.
The movie "The Producers" was made in 1968, starring Gene
Wilder and Zero Mostel. Brooks first feature earned him an
Oscar for screenplay. Gene Wilder got an Oscar nomination
for best supporting actor. Bizarre comedy about an unscrupulous
producer who sells 25,000% of a play that is guaranteed to
flop (a musical about Hitler), after which he will just
keep all the extra money. The problem comes when it
doesn't flop. A classic piece.
++Don
e-mail: it's not not, it's hot.
Keith R. Williams
says...
> "Keith R. Williams" wrote:
> >
> > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
> >
> > You want politically incorrect. Try getting away with "Blazing
> > Saddles" today!
> >
> Mel Brooks still gets away with this kind of stuff. How about
> the movie (less than 10 years old) called "Life Stinks"??? And
> the broadway show "The Producers" had a song called: "Springtime
> for Hitler". Mel Brooks gets away with a lot...but I think that
> a lot of Jews *hate* him.
I was thinking about the scene where the sheriff first comes to
town and takes himself hostage. Jesse and Al would be all over
that like the flies they are. Sure, Brooks gets away with a
*lot*, but that particular movie would ruffle many PC sensitive
feathers!
BTW, Brooks always makes fun of Nazis. IIRC every movie of his
has ridiculed them in some manner or another.
--
Keith
Brian Inglis
They were more worried about physical security and bullet
resistance. It was an American company with a Vietnam era image
problem. Their corporate data centre had already been occupied by
protesters (armed I believe).
Joe Morris
>Mel Brooks still gets away with this kind of stuff. How about
>the movie (less than 10 years old) called "Life Stinks"??? And
>the broadway show "The Producers" had a song called: "Springtime
>for Hitler". Mel Brooks gets away with a lot...but I think that
>a lot of Jews *hate* him.
"Springtime for Hitler" was written for the film; the other music
in the play is (AFAIK) newly written for the Broadway show. All
of it is good.
It's a bit of self-promotion, but there is a good DVD of the production
of the cast album with commentary by Brooks. His position is that
a good way to respond to tyrants, bigots, and other lowlife is to
make fun of them. Consider the production number "The Inquisition"
from his film "The History of the World, part 1".
Joe Morris
David Powell
Years ago, as a kid, I read about "Joshua and his Trumpets of Mass
Destruction". There was also a song.
They've been fighting in that neck of the woods since the days of
stone tablets. Can't see things changing in the foreseeable future.
Regards,
David P.
Jim
about the Nazis except to laugh at them. To make them the butt of jokes
is his best revenge, so he has consistently done so. Remember the rifle
squad of Nazis in line to see Harvey Korman in the land grab scene? They
were near the arabs on camels who were armed with the picturesque
rifles. That's another group his humor tends to pick on. Not to mention
the Klan. That one scene from 'Blazing Saddles'
pretty much summed up who Mel Brooks doesn't like. He laughs at all of
their expenses. He makes you laugh at them, too. I think it makes a lot
more sense than blowing up a busload of children. If you don't like
making fun of Nazis, arabs or the Klan, his movies are best avoided.
Jim
Edward Rice
"Dennis Ritchie" <d...@bell-labs.com> wrote:
> Don't knock MAD (the language). It was a mainstay
> of the intro CS course I TAed for in the '60s, and the
> compiler was much better for student use than Fortran.
The manual was much more literate, as well.
ehr
jmfb...@aol.com
Charles Richmond <rich...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Joe Morris wrote:
>>
>> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>> >To further the topic drift, could you imagine how politically
>> >incorrect it would be nowadays to sing and celebrate as
>> >enthusiastically about someone's death as the Munchkins did?
>>
>> Oh...I'm not sure of that, at least to the extent that I expect there
>> would be a huge production number in the White House if someone reported
>> that Sadaam had been "terminated with extreme prejudice."
>>
>> Suggested song title: "Ding, Dong, the butcher's dead!"
>>
>> Don't forget the Mark Russell song on the same subject from a year or so
back:
>>
>> We're off to kill the butcher,
>> The butcher of Bagdhad, Iraq!
>>
>> ...which I heard in the (live) show titled "Mark Russell and his Piano
of
>> Mass Destruction"
>>
>I doubt that many people shed a tear in Romania when their
>dictator was done away with. Let's face it...abusive, tyrannical,
>slovenly, butchering, mass murderers are just *not* popular.
>(Unless they are Republicans...)
That nasty dictator was the only guy who paid off his war debt.
I have an assumption that nobody is all bad; I'm looking w.r.t
Saddam.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
Keith R. Williams
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, james....@att.net says...
> Joe Morris wrote:
> > Charles Richmond <rich...@comcast.net> writes:
> >
> >
> >>Mel Brooks still gets away with this kind of stuff. How about
> >>the movie (less than 10 years old) called "Life Stinks"??? And
> >>the broadway show "The Producers" had a song called: "Springtime
> >>for Hitler". Mel Brooks gets away with a lot...but I think that
> >>a lot of Jews *hate* him.
> >
> >
> > "Springtime for Hitler" was written for the film; the other music
> > in the play is (AFAIK) newly written for the Broadway show. All
> > of it is good.
> >
> > It's a bit of self-promotion, but there is a good DVD of the production
> > of the cast album with commentary by Brooks. His position is that
> > a good way to respond to tyrants, bigots, and other lowlife is to
> > make fun of them. Consider the production number "The Inquisition"
> > from his film "The History of the World, part 1".
> >
> > Joe Morris
> He once explained that there wasn't anything he or anyone else could do
> about the Nazis except to laugh at them. To make them the butt of jokes
> is his best revenge, so he has consistently done so. Remember the rifle
> squad of Nazis in line to see Harvey Korman in the land grab scene? They
> were near the arabs on camels who were armed with the picturesque
> rifles. That's another group his humor tends to pick on. Not to mention
> the Klan. That one scene from 'Blazing Saddles'
...not to mention the "toll booth".
> pretty much summed up who Mel Brooks doesn't like. He laughs at all of
> their expenses. He makes you laugh at them, too. I think it makes a lot
> more sense than blowing up a busload of children. If you don't like
> making fun of Nazis, arabs or the Klan, his movies are best avoided.
Indeed! I cannot imagine why any Jew would be outraged at his
antics. His humor has exactly the opposite intent! Though I
guess some get their hackles up before listening.
--
Keith
Charles Richmond
>
> In article <bltdb.155863$0v4.11658768@bgtnsc04-
> news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, james....@att.net says...
> >
>
> > pretty much summed up who Mel Brooks doesn't like. He laughs at all of
> > their expenses. He makes you laugh at them, too. I think it makes a lot
> > more sense than blowing up a busload of children. If you don't like
> > making fun of Nazis, arabs or the Klan, his movies are best avoided.
>
> Indeed! I cannot imagine why any Jew would be outraged at his
> antics. His humor has exactly the opposite intent! Though I
> guess some get their hackles up before listening.
>
makes fun of the Jews as well as the Nazis. That's why *some*
of the Jews are ticked off at him. I personally think he is
great, although like Robin Williams, he can overload you with
all the repartee he has going on...
Keith R. Williams
says...
> "Keith R. Williams" wrote:
> >
> > In article <bltdb.155863$0v4.11658768@bgtnsc04-
> > news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, james....@att.net says...
> > >
> > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
> >
> > > pretty much summed up who Mel Brooks doesn't like. He laughs at all of
> > > their expenses. He makes you laugh at them, too. I think it makes a lot
> > > more sense than blowing up a busload of children. If you don't like
> > > making fun of Nazis, arabs or the Klan, his movies are best avoided.
> >
> > Indeed! I cannot imagine why any Jew would be outraged at his
> > antics. His humor has exactly the opposite intent! Though I
> > guess some get their hackles up before listening.
> >
> Well, then, you have *not* paid attention to Mel Brooks. He
> makes fun of the Jews as well as the Nazis. That's why *some*
> of the Jews are ticked off at him.
Oh, I've paid much attention to Mel. If one gets hacked off at
his "insults" then the only alternative is to commit suicide.
That's the only alternative for the terminally stupid.
> I personally think he is
> great, although like Robin Williams, he can overload you with
> all the repartee he has going on...
I don't particularly like Robin Williams. He burnt out on M&M.
Ok, DPS was rather good, but other than that he's been a nothing.
--
Keith
Jdavis
and spewed:
Nothing worth repeating.
<PLONK>
I Never thought I would have do that in AFC!
Jim Davis
Mikko Nahkola
> Charles Richmond <rich...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>I doubt that many people shed a tear in Romania when their
>>dictator was done away with. Let's face it...abusive, tyrannical,
>>slovenly, butchering, mass murderers are just *not* popular.
>>(Unless they are Republicans...)
> That nasty dictator was the only guy who paid off his war debt.
Um. Do you mean WWII debts? That he was the only one to pay off
_personally_? On a country level, not the only one AFAIK.
> I have an assumption that nobody is all bad; I'm looking w.r.t
> Saddam.
Well, yes, I think I might take the position that no _thing_ in itself
can be completely bad, it's just that in some cases it isn't worth
digging out the good.
Funny how that seems to offend some people. And then the same people
tend to get offended in the _other_ direction when given an example...
--
Mikko Nahkola <mnah...@trein.ntc.nokia.com>
#include <disclaimer.h>
#Not speaking for my employer. No warranty. YMMV.
jmfb...@aol.com
Mikko Nahkola <mnah...@trein.ntc.nokia.com> wrote:
>In article <bl6fof$4hl$5...@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>> Charles Richmond <rich...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>I doubt that many people shed a tear in Romania when their
>>>dictator was done away with. Let's face it...abusive, tyrannical,
>>>slovenly, butchering, mass murderers are just *not* popular.
>>>(Unless they are Republicans...)
>
>> That nasty dictator was the only guy who paid off his war debt.
>
>Um. Do you mean WWII debts? That he was the only one to pay off
>_personally_? On a country level, not the only one AFAIK.
Yup, WWII and country level. What other countries did? AFAIK,
the WWII debt was forgiven errmm....ten years (fifteen years)
ago by an act of Congress.
>
>> I have an assumption that nobody is all bad; I'm looking w.r.t
>> Saddam.
>
>Well, yes, I think I might take the position that no _thing_ in itself
>can be completely bad, it's just that in some cases it isn't worth
>digging out the good.
The only thing I could dig out was that Saddam gave passports
to Palestinians when no other Muslim country would acknowledge
these people existed. I never figured out which Palestinians
these were. I also never found out if this was "good" or
"bad".
>
>Funny how that seems to offend some people. And then the same people
>tend to get offended in the _other_ direction when given an example...
Yep. I'm getting so fed up with intolerance and stupidity and no
longer have patience for any fanatic. Mom told me last night
that there exists a group who object to Michigan water crossing
outside the state boundaries and have been burning up and (trying
to blow up) a water bottling plant.
Charles Richmond
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
> Yep. I'm getting so fed up with intolerance and stupidity and no
> longer have patience for any fanatic. Mom told me last night
> that there exists a group who object to Michigan water crossing
> outside the state boundaries and have been burning up and (trying
> to blow up) a water bottling plant.
>
can also understand many of the reasons that we have fanatics,
IMHO. I think that fanaticism is a reaction to the helplessness
that people feel about their lives. I saw a segment on TV
yesterday about local governments using "eminent domain" to
seize people's property...so that other people (mall owners, etc.)
could have the property to build something else. This is very
infuriating to me...it reeks of Fascism IMHO.
Fanatics seem to be those people who have been beaten down one
too many times...and try to strike back any way that they can.
At least it seems that way to me...
Morten Reistad
Installing heavy technical computer plant in high-rise buildings
and expecting to install high security afterwards is a steep uphill
battle anyway. High rises are amazing installations, but in reality
they are pretty fragile things that must be maintained just right.
High-rises have strict budgets on all the things you must expand
and reinforce when you put in a big computer instalation.
Electricity in high-rises is a huge, complex affair, and another,
redundant power source is practically impossible. Even generators are
out because of their demands on weight, vibration resistance, cooling,
exhausts; and they only provide a second power source. You still need
to duplicate the distribution side.
Water is an even more complex and fragile affair; so you cannot put
any large demands on the water supply. Security beyond the already
existing building security is almost undoable in practice. You may
try, but you will get bogged down in things like having to reinforce
floors, ceilings and perimeter walls with an extremely tight weight
budget. And you cannot mess with the building conduits; which normally
run right through everything; making a swiss cheese of your security.
Telecoms is another matter. Getting redundant paths out of the high
rise is a struggle; you will have to swiss cheese everyone else
in the building to get there.
All of this draws heavily on costs. Build it in a rural low-rise,
preferrably below ground. Old steelmills are perfect. They have
lots of power access, and generation possibilities built in,
security is probably thought out well if it existed during WW2;
and there is lots of transportation access where you can put
down fiber if it is not already there.
You don't need city slickers to change tapes and service hardware.
Old farm hands and mill workers do this a lot better. If you build
something like this in a rural environment and recruit operators
locally you will have the townfolks instantly on your side regarding
security. This works a lot better than having it in the city.
-- mrr
Brian Inglis
jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>Yep. I'm getting so fed up with intolerance and stupidity and no
>longer have patience for any fanatic. Mom told me last night
>that there exists a group who object to Michigan water crossing
>outside the state boundaries and have been burning up and (trying
>to blow up) a water bottling plant.
Given the level of industry in Michigan, I'd support their stance
;^>
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> Water is an even more complex and fragile affair; so you cannot put
> any large demands on the water supply. Security beyond the already
> existing building security is almost undoable in practice. You may
> try, but you will get bogged down in things like having to reinforce
> floors, ceilings and perimeter walls with an extremely tight weight
> budget. And you cannot mess with the building conduits; which normally
> run right through everything; making a swiss cheese of your security.
earlier threads about csc machine room in 545 tech sq, directly taking
in city water and then dumping it down the drain .... no water
tower/recycling on roof of the bldg.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#86 write rings
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#40 info
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#6 how to set up a computer system
as an aside ... one of the LAN benefits ... was that a number of
places started running into "floor" loading limits with the weight
of 327x coax cables ... snaking thru all the cable trays.
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Dave Hansen
[...]
>Yep. I'm getting so fed up with intolerance and stupidity and no
>longer have patience for any fanatic. Mom told me last night
>that there exists a group who object to Michigan water crossing
>outside the state boundaries and have been burning up and (trying
>to blow up) a water bottling plant.
Almost right.
There's a group of people who live near the Ice Mountain plant that
claim it is pumping enough water that it is lowering the level of a
local creek and causing them damages. They fought the installation of
the plant, and they are fighting the permit the company needs to
double its pumping rate. (The company does not deny they are lowering
water levels, only that they are lowering them enough to cause
damage).
There's another group of complete wackos called the Earth Liberation
Front, who are not based Michigan, that planted an incendiary device
at the pumping station. The device did not go off and was later found
by plant employees and disarmed by the bomb squad. The ELF's
complaint is that Ice Mountain is making a profit selling water.
(Well, duh.) According to the press release their web site, "ELF has
sent a message that the commodification of water is an attack on a
fundamental right of all beings and must be stopped." (I wonder if
they've bombed any Coke bottling facilities...)
I suspect there is little, if any, overlap between the two groups.
Regards,
-=Dave
--
Change is inevitable, progress is not.
Keith R. Williams
says...
> Keith R. Williams put on his Rush Limbauge beanie
> and spewed:
> Nothing worth repeating.
Let *me* repeat what you're so torqued off about then:
Oh, I've paid much attention to Mel. If one gets hacked off at
his "insults" then the only alternative is to commit suicide.
That's the only alternative for the terminally stupid.
and...
I don't particularly like Robin Williams. He burnt out on M&M.
Ok, DPS was rather good, but other than that he's been a
nothing.
Oh, that's some really damnable stuff. Good grief!
> <PLONK>
> I Never thought I would have do that in AFC!
Please, keep me in your killfile. If you're that thin-skinned,
heaven forbid you ever come across someone who cares about your
incontinence.
--
Keith
jmfb...@aol.com
id...@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen) wrote:
>On Mon, 29 Sep 03 11:53:39 GMT, jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>
>[...]
>>Yep. I'm getting so fed up with intolerance and stupidity and no
>>longer have patience for any fanatic. Mom told me last night
>>that there exists a group who object to Michigan water crossing
>>outside the state boundaries and have been burning up and (trying
>>to blow up) a water bottling plant.
>
>Almost right.
>
>There's a group of people who live near the Ice Mountain plant that
>claim it is pumping enough water that it is lowering the level of a
>local creek and causing them damages. They fought the installation of
>the plant, and they are fighting the permit the company needs to
>double its pumping rate. (The company does not deny they are lowering
>water levels, only that they are lowering them enough to cause
>damage).
>
>There's another group of complete wackos called the Earth Liberation
>Front,
That's the one. I can tell by their cybercurd that they're trying
to cover stupidity with cuteness.
> .. who are not based Michigan,
Of course not. It seems like a lot of Michigan's troubles are
imported and they seem to come from Arkansas.
> .. that planted an incendiary device
>at the pumping station. The device did not go off and was later found
>by plant employees and disarmed by the bomb squad. The ELF's
>complaint is that Ice Mountain is making a profit selling water.
>(Well, duh.) According to the press release their web site, "ELF has
>sent a message that the commodification of water is an attack on a
>fundamental right of all beings and must be stopped." (I wonder if
>they've bombed any Coke bottling facilities...)
See? Fucking idiots. (I'm not talking about the locals who
are questions water levles. I'm talking about people who insist
on importing their messes and not sticking around to clean up
after themselves.)
>
>I suspect there is little, if any, overlap between the two groups.
I should hope not. But you never know. It's the ELF with the
cutesy name that Mom was telling me about. Always beware of
cute.
Mikko Nahkola
> Mikko Nahkola <mnah...@trein.ntc.nokia.com> wrote:
>>> That nasty dictator was the only guy who paid off his war debt.
>>Um. Do you mean WWII debts? That he was the only one to pay off
>>_personally_? On a country level, not the only one AFAIK.
> Yup, WWII and country level. What other countries did? AFAIK,
> the WWII debt was forgiven errmm....ten years (fifteen years)
> ago by an act of Congress.
Oh. Not that your Congress could have done much anyway after they
decided to let Stalin do the colletion on some of the countries (like
Finland) ... the Soviets just didn't get around to sending the paperwork back?
>>> I have an assumption that nobody is all bad; I'm looking w.r.t
>>> Saddam.
>>Well, yes, I think I might take the position that no _thing_ in itself
>>can be completely bad, it's just that in some cases it isn't worth
>>digging out the good.
> The only thing I could dig out was that Saddam gave passports
> to Palestinians when no other Muslim country would acknowledge
> these people existed. I never figured out which Palestinians
> these were. I also never found out if this was "good" or
> "bad".
Well, that's much better already than what I could find on a specific
atmospheric nuclear test ... "I understand the dust made for a couple of
rather nice sunsets".
Dennis Ritchie
a few days ago: I dredged up my copy of the MAD manual.
It is dated April 1965. Although it does not have any other
publication data, I suspect it's probably from U. Mich. It's
bound in a blue cover, with
M ichigan
A lgorithm
D ecoder
on the front (no A E Neumann or fancy font). At the beginning
and at the end there are several pages of revisions and
errata with various dates through 1964 and 1965. I suspect
that the text is probably the identical "typeset" text
from the first edition. (Actually it was probably done on
something like and IBM Executive or some other typewriter
with some replaceable keys; various script letters are definitely
typed). The update material was apparently produced on
a more ordinary typewriter and it has some handwritten letters.
Dennis