Terminator 1 runs IBM MVS????
Hugh Davies
remembered to do something I've been meaning to do for ages, to whit; look at the terminator vision sequences on freeze frame to find out what the code listing briefly displayed are. Bingo! 360 Assembler (I think, I've never been an IBM droid).)
Does anyone know the real gen behind this.
Regards,
Hugh.
==========
I don't work for Xerox PARC, even tho' I read my News here.
Nothing herein represents any sort of official opinion of Xerox.
Palmer Davis
>
>Bingo! 360 Assembler (I think, I've never been an IBM droid).)
>
6502, actually.
-- PTD --
--
Palmer Davis <da...@po.cwru.edu> INS doesn't speak for me, so it's only
UNIX and MacOS Development Guy fair that the reverse be true....
CWRU Information Network Services Life is short.
John Bates
|> I watched "Terminator" last night, for the umpteenth time, and finally
|> remembered to do something I've been meaning to do for ages, to whit; look at the terminator vision sequences on freeze frame to find out what the code listing briefly displayed are. Bingo! 360 Assembler (I think, I've never been an IBM droid).)
|>
|> Does anyone know the real gen behind this.
|>
|> Regards,
|>
Actually, I believe that it's 6504 Assembler, but it's been a while since
I saw the movie.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John W. Bates | "Why you say you no bunny rabbit when you have
| little powder-puff tail?" -- The Tasmanian Devil
jba...@encore.com | "There are no more little bunnies to destroy..."
| -- Frank Lemmer
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
William Kucharski
>In article <1991Aug21....@parc.xerox.com>, hda...@parc.xerox.com (Hugh Davies) writes:
>|> I watched "Terminator" last night, for the umpteenth time, and finally
>|> remembered to do something I've been meaning to do for ages, to whit; look at the terminator vision sequences on freeze frame to find out what the code listing briefly displayed are. Bingo! 360 Assembler (I think, I've never been an IBM droid).)
>|>
>|> Does anyone know the real gen behind this.
>|>
>|> Regards,
>|>
>
>Actually, I believe that it's 6504 Assembler, but it's been a while since
>I saw the movie.
It's 6502 Assembler, specifically code for the Apple II. If you use
field freeze on the LD or a good tape, you'll notice that there are even
the results of a run through MicroSparc's (sp? The software arm of Nibble
magazine) program "Key Perfect" (a program which generated checksums to
test if what you typed in from the magazine was the same as what was
published). What's really hilarious is that the 6502 code is indeed
commented as well (machines need to comment code?)...
Just think - a T800 is run by a 6502!! Amazing what an 8 bit CPU can do :-) :-)
--
| William Kucharski, Solbourne Computer, Inc. | Opinions expressed above
| Internet: kuch...@solbourne.com Ham: N0OKQ | are MINE alone, not those
| uucp: ...!{boulder,sun,uunet}!stan!kucharsk | of Solbourne...
| Snail Mail: 1900 Pike Road, Longmont, CO 80501 | "It's Night 9 With D2 Dave!"
Keith Stattenfield
>Regards,
>Hugh.
No, it's 6502 Assembler, specifically several programs for the Apple II from a
magazine called 'Nibble'. In fact, one of them is one of MY programs.
I'm kinda proud, what with being an indispensible contributor to Arnold's
stardom.
And I have no idea why they chose to use those pages from Nibble.
-Keith Stattenfield "Cute signature pending approval."
stat...@apple.com
Hodge Podge
>I watched "Terminator" last night, for the umpteenth time, and finally
>remembered to do something I've been meaning to do for ages, to whit; look at the terminator vision sequences on freeze frame to find out what the code listing briefly displayed are. Bingo! 360 Assembler (I think, I've never been an IBM droid).)
>Does anyone know the real gen behind this.
This has been discussed to death on rec.arts.movies and I alot of people seem
to think it was assembler from an Apple II (IIe??).
--
Gene Moreau, University of Manitoba.
ummo...@ccu.umanitoba.ca
"I've been assigned to protect you, you've been targeted for termination!"
John 'Vlad' Adams
>In article <xyzzy> hda...@parc.xerox.com (Hugh Davies) writes:
>>
>>Bingo! 360 Assembler (I think, I've never been an IBM droid).)
>>
>
>6502, actually.
]CALL -151
*L
Oh, I nearly forgot to mention an Apple genlock... :)
--
John M. Adams --*****-- Professional Student ///
Internet: j...@cis.ufl.edu Genie: vlad /// Only the Amiga
Sysop of The Beachside, Amiga Support, StarNet BBS \\V// Makes it Possible
Fido Net 1:3612/557. 904-492-2305 (Florida) \X/
John 'Vlad' Adams
>
>Just think - a T800 is run by a 6502!! Amazing what an 8 bit CPU can do :-) :-)
Except when you consider that a RISC processor is nothing but a glorified
6502 on a 32bit strucure with LOTS of registers... :P
Hodge Podge
>In article <16...@encore.Encore.COM> jba...@encore.encore.COM (John Bates) writes:
>It's 6502 Assembler, specifically code for the Apple II. If you use
>field freeze on the LD or a good tape, you'll notice that there are even
>the results of a run through MicroSparc's (sp? The software arm of Nibble
>magazine) program "Key Perfect" (a program which generated checksums to
>test if what you typed in from the magazine was the same as what was
>published). What's really hilarious is that the 6502 code is indeed
>commented as well (machines need to comment code?)...
As I remeber the CSM-101 (the chassis under the T-600 and T-800) was originally
designed by humans. Which would mean they should be comments there.
Captain Trips
>In article <1991Aug21.1...@solbourne.com> kuch...@solbourne.com (William Kucharski) writes:
>>
>>Just think - a T800 is run by a 6502!! Amazing what an 8 bit CPU can do :-) :-)
Actually, it is...I remember fondly doing assembly programing on an
Apple ][e back in high school, using the joystick inputs hooked up to
phototransistors as sensors and using the annunciators hooked up to solid-
state relays to do all sorts of neat-o things in the Physics lab...
The plan was that these programs, with the external hardware, would
eventually be propagated to all Baltimore County (Maryland) schools...
since each one bore my name, I hope that this might pass my name into the local
folklore... B->
Maybe I should add a line to my resume: "Experienced in programming
CyberDyne Systems Terminator CPUs"
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/fan...@wam.umd.edu | "Born to die" | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
Weiner's Law of Libraries:
There are no answers, only cross references.
Checkpoint Technologies
>>
>>Just think - a T800 is run by a 6502!! Amazing what an 8 bit CPU can do :-) :-)
>
>Except when you consider that a RISC processor is nothing but a glorified
>6502 on a 32bit strucure with LOTS of registers... :P
That's like saying human beings are only glorified protozoa. It's the
"glorifiction" that makes all the difference...
>--
>John M. Adams --*****-- Professional Student ///
>Internet: j...@cis.ufl.edu Genie: vlad /// Only the Amiga
>Sysop of The Beachside, Amiga Support, StarNet BBS \\V// Makes it Possible
>Fido Net 1:3612/557. 904-492-2305 (Florida) \X/
--
Richard Krehbiel, private citizen c...@grebyn.com
(Who needs a fancy .signature?)
Steve Loughran
through some kind of post-holocaust laser rifle.
Note what looks suspiciously like cobol code.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| E-MAIL: s...@hplb.hpl.hp.com || s...@hpl.hp.co.uk || s...@hplb.uucp |
| ORGANISATION: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol |
| ADDRESS: Filton Road, Stoke Gifford, Bristol, England, BS12 6QZ |
| TELEPHONE: +44 272 228717 |
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
J. Horsmeier
>Check out the scene where the humans are firing at a robot aircraft
>through some kind of post-holocaust laser rifle.
>
>Note what looks suspiciously like cobol code.
And have a look at `Alien' (the first one), the computer (called `Mother')
shows you loads of FORTRAN source code. With a dazzling speed!
BTW it also displays tons of meaningless `0's and `1's on a simple CRT which
the crew seems to understand!
Jos
|_Jos_Horsmeie...@and.nl_| J.F. Kennedy `Ich bin ein Berliner' |
| O O \O/ O O \O | R. Nixon `I am not a crook' |
|<|> <|/ | <|> \|> |> everybody | R. Reagan `I uhhh ...' |
|/ \ / / \ / \ \ / \ twist! | G. Bush `I don't like broccoli' |
| Zappa for president of the USA | F. Zappa `I am a Hamburger' |
lav...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu
>shows you loads of FORTRAN source code. With a dazzling speed!
Just goes to show you, FORTRAN will never die :-).
>BTW it also displays tons of meaningless `0's and `1's on a simple CRT which
>the crew seems to understand!
Maybe the spaceship crews of the future have to read binary-coded ASCII :-).
Well, there's one solution to the user-friendliness problem!
As long as we're talking about movies, in WestWorld (yeah, I know, set up
the Wayback machine...), there's a screenfull of assembly from some old
8-bit processor that, as best I can tell, does base conversions.
Just my 2 cents' worth... (if that!)
Joe
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Joseph W. Lavinus, Virginia Tech email: lav...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu
"I don't believe in psychology. I believe in good moves." -- Bobby Fischer
doctorgonzo
>Check out the scene where the humans are firing at a robot aircraft
>through some kind of post-holocaust laser rifle.
>Note what looks suspiciously like cobol code.
Yeh... I could swear that in the left half of most of the 'Terminator-eye-view'
shots there's 6502 assembly code scrolling past...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
d o * g o * . . "If you didn't have anything nice to say,
c r n . you shouldn't of said anything at all!!"
* t o * z o sbo...@maths.tcd.ie - Flaming Carrot
J. Horsmeier
|>And have a look at `Alien' (the first one), the computer (called `Mother')
|>shows you loads of FORTRAN source code. With a dazzling speed!
|
|Just goes to show you, FORTRAN will never die :-).
|
|>BTW it also displays tons of meaningless `0's and `1's on a simple CRT which
|>the crew seems to understand!
|
|Maybe the spaceship crews of the future have to read binary-coded ASCII :-).
|Well, there's one solution to the user-friendliness problem!
|
|As long as we're talking about movies, in WestWorld (yeah, I know, set up
|the Wayback machine...), there's a screenfull of assembly from some old
|8-bit processor that, as best I can tell, does base conversions.
|
|Just my 2 cents' worth... (if that!)
|
|Joe
What I really like about all these movies, is, they want computers to be
real `computory', LEDs, loads of LEDs switching on an' off with great
tempo, suggesting speed, intelligence, danger, anything. How about that
movie (forgot the title) about a little nerd, breaking into some host
pentagon machine ... almost starting an SDI war with the russians. Did you
ever see that? The machine just looks like some oversized magnetron, with
too many LEDs on it! It even had more LEDs on it than the old IBM 1130.
And that machine looked like a Xmas tree to me! (boy, am I old too) =8^)
Jos
ps Sorry, just babbling ...
David Wolfe
>In <1991Aug22.1...@hplb.hpl.hp.com> s...@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Steve Loughran) writes:
>>Check out the scene where the humans are firing at a robot aircraft
>>through some kind of post-holocaust laser rifle.
>>Note what looks suspiciously like cobol code.
>Yeh... I could swear that in the left half of most of the 'Terminator-eye-view'
>shots there's 6502 assembly code scrolling past...
No, No I am certain it was 8085 opcodes. We were writing a lot of the stuff
(in school) when the movie first came out and we were real excited to see that
what we were doing did have some relevance :->.
-DaveW
D John McKenna
>What I really like about all these movies, is, they want computers to be
>real `computory', LEDs, loads of LEDs switching on an' off with great
>tempo, suggesting speed, intelligence, danger, anything. How about that
>movie (forgot the title) about a little nerd, breaking into some host
>pentagon machine ... almost starting an SDI war with the russians. Did you
>ever see that? The machine just looks like some oversized magnetron, with
>too many LEDs on it! It even had more LEDs on it than the old IBM 1130.
>And that machine looked like a Xmas tree to me! (boy, am I old too) =8^)
But everyone KNOWS its not a real computer unless its got lots of
flashing lights on the front. Look at the IBM PC. No flashing lights =>
not a real computer. Now look at the Connection Machine. LOTS&LOTS of
flashing lights => very real computer.
John West
Computers lost a lot when they lost front panel switches, flashing
lights, and fish
Toshi Morita
j...@and.nl (J. Horsmeier) writes:
>What I really like about all these movies, is, they want computers to be
>real `computory', LEDs, loads of LEDs switching on an' off with great
>tempo, suggesting speed, intelligence, danger, anything. How about that
>movie (forgot the title) about a little nerd, breaking into some host
>pentagon machine ... almost starting an SDI war with the russians. Did you
>ever see that? The machine just looks like some oversized magnetron, with
>too many LEDs on it! It even had more LEDs on it than the old IBM 1130.
>And that machine looked like a Xmas tree to me! (boy, am I old too) =8^)
This is from memory, so please pardon any inaccuracies...
The movie you're talking about is "Wargames" and it was a real computer. He
used an IMSAI, one of the first hobbyist computers (it was released in 1975).
It was an S-100 bus computer with an 8080A at 2 Mhz, with binary switches for
address and data buses. They usually ran CP/M 1.4 or 2.2 as an operating
system. He was running a Hazeltine terminal and a Votrax speech synthesizer
connected to his RS-232C port so it'd read the text aloud. The modem was a US
Robotics.
I was really surprised by the authenticity of the film - they used equipment
that a real computer hobbyist might own.
Steve Lamont
>j...@and.nl (J. Horsmeier) writes:
>> ... Did you
>>ever see that? The machine just looks like some oversized magnetron, with
>The movie you're talking about is "Wargames" and it was a real computer. He
>used an IMSAI, one of the first hobbyist computers (it was released in 1975).
I think that j...@and.nl was referring to WOPR (or something like that) --
the computer that the little nerd broke into and almost started Global
Thermonuclear War.
The nerd's machine was indeed an IMSAI 8080. I owned one of these
beasts (with a whole 8 K of static ram!!!). For most of the time that
I owned it I didn't have a CRT to talk to it with nor did I ever have
disk drives. I had, instead, a Tarbell cassette interface and had to
key in the boot sequence from the front panel switches (in fact, I
used to say that I programmed in FPS -- Front Panel Switches). That
machine taught me more about programming and computers than any of the
Confuser Science classes I ever took whilst going to school.
spl (the p stands for
panel switches)
--
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- s...@dim.ucsd.edu
UCSD Microscope and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
"The complete seven-volume set of books, entitled _The Art of Computer
Programming_, has the following general outline..." -- D.E. Knuth
Don Nichols (DoN.)
>>What I really like about all these movies, is, they want computers to be
>>real `computory', LEDs, loads of LEDs switching on an' off with great
[ ... ]
>
>This is from memory, so please pardon any inaccuracies...
>
>The movie you're talking about is "Wargames" and it was a real computer. He
>used an IMSAI, one of the first hobbyist computers (it was released in 1975).
>It was an S-100 bus computer with an 8080A at 2 Mhz, with binary switches for
>address and data buses. They usually ran CP/M 1.4 or 2.2 as an operating
>system.
Didn't they at first run the Microsoft Disk BASIC (where the "OS" is
part of the language?) I know that the Altair 8800's did, and that CP/M was
a later choice, to give an OS which could load, run, and save programs other
than BASIC programs.
The hobby computers that I remember which had front panel lights and
switches were:
The Altair 8800
The IMSAI 8080
The Altair 680b
and
(I don't remember the name of this, but it had a chip which ran the
PDP-8 instruction set.) What a horrible choice that was for a micro with RAM
instead of core, and a monitor/loader in ROM. (The PDP-8 stored the return
address in the first location of the subroutine, and did an indirect jump
through that location to return from the subroutine. Try doing THAT in ROM!)
Not only do I not remember the name of it, I also never saw it, except in
ads in Byte or Killobaud.
Does anyone else remember others with front panel lights and
swtiches?
> He was running a Hazeltine terminal and a Votrax speech synthesizer
>connected to his RS-232C port so it'd read the text aloud. The modem was a US
>Robotics.
>
>I was really surprised by the authenticity of the film - they used equipment
>that a real computer hobbyist might own.
Except that most hobbyists his age couldn't AFFORD all that :-) I
didn't see the movie, so he might have had a rich dad or something.
--
Donald Nichols (DoN.) | Voice (Days): (703) 664-1585 (Eves): (703) 938-4564
D&D Data | Email: <dnic...@ceilidh.beartrack.com>
I said it - no one else | <dnic...@ceilidh.aes.com>
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Chris'n'Vickie of Chicago
>
>But everyone KNOWS its not a real computer unless its got lots of
>flashing lights on the front. Look at the IBM PC. No flashing lights =>
>not a real computer. Now look at the Connection Machine. LOTS&LOTS of
>flashing lights => very real computer.
>
>John West
>Computers lost a lot when they lost front panel switches, flashing
>lights, and fish
I toured Argonne Nat. Labs Math Dept. and saw my first real-live Cray
BBN-Butterfly and Connection Machine. Lord what a sexy box! What I want to
know is - has anyone done any "display hacks" with the L.E.D.s on the front
panel? You know, wasting a several million dollar machine's time on a
silly, childish prank for no good reason :-)
The mind boggles at the thought of seeing some military brass being
toured around the labs, being shown the Connection Machine, lights flashing
impressively suddenly start spelling out words a'la the Goodyear Blimp.
(Maybe somthing about the Military-Industrial Complex he-he....)
Chris Williams
kate...@chinet.chi.il.us
Tim W Smith
>shots there's 6502 assembly code scrolling past...
It doesn't scroll, it pages.
Steve Lamont
>In article <26...@well.sf.ca.us> t...@well.sf.ca.us (Toshi Morita) writes:
>>
>>The movie you're talking about is "Wargames" and it was a real computer. He
>>used an IMSAI, one of the first hobbyist computers (it was released in 1975).
> Didn't they at first run the Microsoft Disk BASIC (where the "OS" is
>part of the language?) I know that the Altair 8800's did ...
Nope. The first machines didn't even *have* disks -- at least
affordable ones. As I mentioned in another posting, the IMSAI 8080
was a bare metal machine, no ROM whatsoever -- at least, again, in the
version that I owned.
> The hobby computers that I remember which had front panel lights and
>switches were: the Altair 8800, the IMSAI 8080, the Altair 680b, and
>(I don't remember the name of this, but it had a chip which ran the
>PDP-8 instruction set.) ...
Don't remember that one. There was an LSI-11 based system that Heath
used to sell. Maybe that's it.
But, ah, the phrase "hobby computers" resonates pleasantly in my
memory. How exciting were those days in the middle 1970s were, when Byte
was full of construction articles, not ads for databases, and Dr
Dobb's Journal of Computer Calesthenics and (Something) Orthodontia
was a random amalgam of source code, rumors, and philosophy (I ran
across my first copy of DDJ in the Embarcadero BART station on the way
to a job interview and my life was changed on the spot -- I no longer wanted
the job and was hooked on hacking).
spl (the p stands for
phart, old)
--
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- s...@dim.ucsd.edu
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
Larry Cunningham
I really should go rent Wargames before I open my big mouth.
So correct me if I have my computer movies crossed up here but...
The IMSAI computer was real, but what about WOPR? WOPR looked like the
remains of an old punchcard sorter (with rounded edges on the top), had
a big LED display on it, and emitted an omninous Unnnnunnnnnunnnn sound like
a 12-cylinder motor idling! Clearly an *evil* thing. I thought it was hilarous.
And what did WOPR stand for?
Also, the IMSAI's speech unit worked pretty good too, huh? It had a little
better inflection on the speech than the units I heard... (:-<>)
As for speech units, I think the one Colossus forced Forbin to build was
clearly the best. It both sounded and looked evil. "In time... You will
come to love me, and to worship me..." or something like that..
"Yeh, Buddy.. | lcun...@nmsu.edu (Larry Cunningham) | _~~_
I've got your COMPUTER! | % Physical Science Laboratory | (O)(-)
Right HERE!!" | New Mexico State University | /..\
(computer THIS!) | Las Cruces, New Mexico, USA 88003 | <>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are CORRECT, mine, and not PSLs or NMSUs..
Larry Cunningham
and no front panel and devoted much of their advertising effort trying to
convince people that a front panel wasn't needed.
Also, as hobby computers go, how about the Heathkit machines. I believe their
CPM machine had a front panel and I am almost sure their H11 had it or it was
available as an option (a la DEC).
Larry.
Hodge Podge
>I really should go rent Wargames before I open my big mouth.
>So correct me if I have my computer movies crossed up here but...
>And what did WOPR stand for?
I think, if I can remeber correctly, War Operations Programmed Responce.
Doug Siebert
>
>The IMSAI computer was real, but what about WOPR? WOPR looked like the
>remains of an old punchcard sorter (with rounded edges on the top), had
>a big LED display on it, and emitted an omninous Unnnnunnnnnunnnn sound like
>a 12-cylinder motor idling! Clearly an *evil* thing. I thought it was hilarous.
>
>And what did WOPR stand for?
>
--
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Doug Siebert | "I don't have to take this abuse from you -- |
| | I've got hundreds of people waiting in line |
| dsie...@icaen.uiowa.edu | to abuse me." - Bill Murray, Ghostbusters |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Life...
>la...@rock.psl.nmsu (Larry Cunningham) writes:
>>And what did WOPR stand for?
>I think, if I can remeber correctly, War Operations Programmed Responce.
War Operation Plan Response. I just cued it up to its first appearance,
and it is shown on the machine directly under the WOPR letters. The
book backs it up. Both of the versions I have -- the normal and the
"Special Book Club Edition" with interesting edits, removing all
references to drugs, alcohol, and profanity... basically making it
Politically Correct.
>Gene Moreau, University of Manitoba.
>ummo...@ccu.umanitoba.ca
WarGames? Politically Correct?
--
/// ____ \\\ DON'T "Spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men
| |/ / \ \| | PANIC men were real men, women were real women, and
\\_|\____/|_// small furry creatures from Alpha Centuri were
greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu real small furry creatures from Alpha Centuri."
gberigan`-' unlinfo.unl.edu -- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Christian Doucet
>> The hobby computers that I remember which had front panel lights and
>>switches were: the Altair 8800, the IMSAI 8080, the Altair 680b, and
>>(I don't remember the name of this, but it had a chip which ran the
>>PDP-8 instruction set.) ...
>Don't remember that one. There was an LSI-11 based system that Heath
>used to sell. Maybe that's it.
The chip that ran the PDP-8 instruction set was the Intersil IM-6100.
It was not in the Heathkit LSI-11 system for sure.
That I know. But what happened to it???
BTW, it would be interresting to see some sort of a list of "orphan"
micro-processors. Here are my four first entries:
Intersil IM-1600
Fairchild F8 <--- was it the first embedded controller?
RCA 1802 <--- who used it, besides Netronics?
Signetics 2650
>But, ah, the phrase "hobby computers" resonates pleasantly in my
>memory. How exciting were those days in the middle 1970s were, when Byte
>was full of construction articles, not ads for databases, and Dr
>Dobb's Journal of Computer Calesthenics and (Something) Orthodontia
>was a random amalgam of source code, rumors, and philosophy (I ran
>across my first copy of DDJ in the Embarcadero BART station on the way
>to a job interview and my life was changed on the spot -- I no longer wanted
>the job and was hooked on hacking).
On the cover of the V1N7 issue of DDJ ($1.50):
dr. dobb's journal of
C O M P U T E R
Calisthenics & Orthodontia
Running Light Without Overbyte
>Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- s...@dim.ucsd.edu
>UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
>"The complete seven-volume set of books, entitled _The Art of Computer
>Programming_, has the following general outline..." -- D.E. Knuth
Bruno Majewski
Don Nichols (DoN.)
>and no front panel and devoted much of their advertising effort trying to
>convince people that a front panel wasn't needed.
I had, as my first machine the 680b (with front panel), and did work
on other people's systems when they were having trouble. The front panel
was quite useful in extreme cases, since you could detect a stuck address or
data bit with it. (Helped me find a under-the-solder-mask short on one
board, by seeing that one address LED wouldn't go on.
I put slip-on covers on the data and address switches, to mark them
off in hex groupings. (Octal was for the Intel crowd - Motorola processers'
opcodes were listed in Hex, which made more sense to me, especially given
the problems that the Intel crown had between straight octal and split octal
(forced by Intel processors putting addresses on the stack in reverse
byte-order. :-)
I later used the SWTP machines, and missed the front panel (but
needed the extra clock speed to run floppy-disk controllers).
>Also, as hobby computers go, how about the Heathkit machines. I believe their
>CPM machine had a front panel and I am almost sure their H11 had it or it was
>available as an option (a la DEC).
Well, it depends on what you call a front panel. It did have a
seven-segment display and a keypad (for Octal, I believe), but it wasn't the
same as the row of leds and switches for the address and data buses.
Don Nichols (DoN.)
>In article gu...@uniwa.uwa.oz.au (D John McKenna) writes:
[ ... ]
>>flashing lights => very real computer.
>>
>>John West
>>Computers lost a lot when they lost front panel switches, flashing
>>lights, and fish
>
> I toured Argonne Nat. Labs Math Dept. and saw my first real-live Cray
>BBN-Butterfly and Connection Machine. Lord what a sexy box! What I want to
>know is - has anyone done any "display hacks" with the L.E.D.s on the front
>panel? You know, wasting a several million dollar machine's time on a
>silly, childish prank for no good reason :-)
Well, I don't know what has been done with the Cray, or the BBN
Butterfly, but one BBN machine, the C70 (Wierd 10-bit bytes :-) is shipped
with a mild hack for the front-panel lights. It is a program called shine
(if I remember correctly), and causes the front-panel lights to sweep back
and forth across the front. This has the advantage of letting you gague
load-average at a glance, but noting how much the lights have slowed down.
(Given the use of these systems, they slow down a LOT :-). They're running
a e-mail system called infomail, which keeps it ALL in a BIG database. (Kind
of like /usr/spool/news, except it's all one big file :-) There are too many
users on the system, and load averages of 10+ are not uncommon, when
infoloop starts churning through the database.
> The mind boggles at the thought of seeing some military brass being
>toured around the labs, being shown the Connection Machine, lights flashing
>impressively suddenly start spelling out words a'la the Goodyear Blimp.
> (Maybe somthing about the Military-Industrial Complex he-he....)
Well, shine is kept running normally, because the brass DO need to
see flashing lights to realize that it is a computer :-)
Sam Warden
>In article <15...@creatures.cs.vt.edu> lav...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu () writes:
>too many LEDs on it! It even had more LEDs on it than the old IBM 1130.
>And that machine looked like a Xmas tree to me! (boy, am I old too) =8^)
Gee, as I remember the 1130 was a rather Spartan-looking thing: the only
blinkenlichts I can recall on the console were 16 telephone-type lamps
which showed the accumulator contents, and some *really ugly* square
backlit pushbuttons for start, stop, and such. My impression, at the
time even, was that advertising types with no respect for machinery
had taken over the design. Some of the peripheral devices were older,
and had plugboards for setup. These were better.
sa...@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden)
' Give me bat-handle toggleswitches or give me death! '
Charlie Gibbs
>The movie you're talking about is "Wargames" and it was a real computer. He
>used an IMSAI, one of the first hobbyist computers (it was released in 1975).
>It was an S-100 bus computer with an 8080A at 2 Mhz, with binary switches for
>address and data buses. They usually ran CP/M 1.4 or 2.2 as an operating
>system. He was running a Hazeltine terminal and a Votrax speech synthesizer
>connected to his RS-232C port so it'd read the text aloud. The modem was a US
>Robotics.
I still fire up my good old IMSAI from time to time.
>I was really surprised by the authenticity of the film - they used equipment
>that a real computer hobbyist might own.
Yeah, like that 9600-bps acoustic coupler. :-) And obviously WOPR
(which looked like it was built in the IBM 650 era) had a Votrax hooked
up to it too. Actually, that movie had some technical holes you could
drive a truck through - but it was still fun.
Actually, what I consider the most technically accurate part of the movie
was when the kid found the password to the school's computer system while
sitting outside the principal's office. How many real users do you know who
hide passwords in such obvious places? Yup, lots.
Charli...@mindlink.bc.ca
"I'm cursed with hair from HELL!" -- Night Court
J. Horsmeier
Huh? Are we talking about the *same* 1130 here? 8-) The machine I worked on
was desk-shaped, with a *huge* 18Meg harddisk in the right drawer part,
a paper terminal (type writer) in the middle, and room left over on the left side.
Right before your eyes was some scaffold like construction with LEDs
all over, LEDs for the registers, LEDs for the I/O channels, LEDs for
the LEDs ...
The thing was used for controlling an analog machine (DAC). A mess it was!
First you had to patch the analog beast, all kinds of wires tangled!
Then you had to program the 1130 in FORTRAN 4! Yikes! It gave me nightmares!
Jos
Mika R Iisakkila
>BTW, it would be interresting to see some sort of a list of "orphan"
>micro-processors. Here are my four first entries:
What about anything from Texas Instruments?
>RCA 1802 <--- who used it, besides Netronics?
The 1802 was used in the Telmac series of microcomputers, which were
very(?) popular in Finland in the late 70's. They had something like a
few kB of RAM and could use a TV set as the display unit. The bigger
model, Telmac 2000, even had colour display. Programming languages
were machine code through some kind of a ROM monitor, BASIC, and
CHIP-8. Someone will probably tell more about them - I could never
afford one, and had to wait a few years for my Sinclair Spectrum.
Martijn Nykerk
>movie (forgot the title) about a little nerd, breaking into some host
>pentagon machine ... almost starting an SDI war with the russians. Did you
>ever see that? The machine just looks like some oversized magnetron, with
>too many LEDs on it! It even had more LEDs on it than the old IBM 1130.
>And that machine looked like a Xmas tree to me! (boy, am I old too) =8^)
>Jos
>ps Sorry, just babbling ...
Yup, the movie was called War Games, pretty colorful machine they had.
But then again, a few years back, I saw a pic of Thinking Machines Inc. new
machine, and my, did it have a lot of lights, and for real too, I think.
And well, I like Xmas trees,
Martijn
Before, people just had to admit that they were stupid,
now they can say: "It's a virus!" -- Me
gle...@mwk.uucp
> In article <30...@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> j...@reef.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) writes:
>>In article <1991Aug21.1...@solbourne.com> kuch...@solbourne.com (William Kucharski) writes:
>>>
>>>Just think - a T800 is run by a 6502!! Amazing what an 8 bit CPU can do :-) :-)
> Maybe I should add a line to my resume: "Experienced in programming
> CyberDyne Systems Terminator CPUs"
>
I remeber there was a little software house, a few years back, that
developed 6502 software, and wrote a few textbooks on 6502 applications...
their company was named "Cyberdyne Systems." I presume they went
out of business, since if they were still around, they would
probably have made a stink about their company name being used in
the terminator movies.
gle...@mwk.uucp
Rich Alderson
>What I really like about all these movies, is, they want computers to be
>real `computory', LEDs, loads of LEDs switching on an' off with great
>tempo, suggesting speed, intelligence, danger, anything. How about that
>movie (forgot the title) about a little nerd, breaking into some host
>pentagon machine ... almost starting an SDI war with the russians. Did you
>ever see that? The machine just looks like some oversized magnetron, with
>too many LEDs on it! It even had more LEDs on it than the old IBM 1130.
>And that machine looked like a Xmas tree to me! (boy, am I old too) =8^)
_War Games_, with Matthew Broderick, Dabney Coleman, and Ally Sheedy.
But an old digital watch had more LEDs than an 1130, which used acorn bulbs--
real incandescent bulbs with glowing tungsten wire.
--
Rich Alderson 'I wish life was not so short,' he thought. 'Languages take
Unix Systems such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
L&IR, Stanford --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alde...@alderson.stanford.edu _The Lost Road_
Tim Pierce
>In <1991Aug21.1...@solbourne.com> kuch...@solbourne.com (William Kucharski) writes:
>>What's really hilarious is that the 6502 code is indeed
>>commented as well (machines need to comment code?)...
>
>As I remeber the CSM-101 (the chassis under the T-600 and T-800) was
>originally designed by humans. Which would mean they should be comments there.
There would be comments in the source code, but not the compiled product.
Why the source code would be still residing in the machine at that point
is beyond me.
--
____ Tim Pierce / "I'm sorry, dear. You just don't
\ / pie...@husc.harvard.edu / look like beef negimaki."
\/ (aka twpi...@amh.amherst.edu) / -- Beth A.
Tim Pierce
>And have a look at `Alien' (the first one), the computer (called `Mother')
>shows you loads of FORTRAN source code. With a dazzling speed!
>the crew seems to understand!
Which reminds me of REAL GENIUS, an early (and pretty mediocre) Val
Kilmer movie. In this one, there's a scene where one of the more
intense hackers is trying to break the security on a DoD computer.
Suddenly the screen fills up with columns of meaningless words and
figures. He looks someone puzzled and hits a few keys, whereupon the
text is replaced by an abstract pattern of shifting lines and colored
circles. "Oh," he says, "I understand it now."
Tim Pierce
>But everyone KNOWS its not a real computer unless its got lots of
>flashing lights on the front. Look at the IBM PC. No flashing lights =>
>not a real computer. Now look at the Connection Machine. LOTS&LOTS of
>flashing lights => very real computer.
One of my CS professors, a long time ago, told me a story about the
Connection Machine (to get back to computer folklore). Supposedly, once
the machine it was released to the public, it wouldn't sell very well.
Understandably concerned, the machine's designers called in a marketing
consultant to ask them why. "Not enough lights," he said. The machine
was completely bare on the outside, and didn't appear to be doing
anything. So the next version of the machine was identical to the
first, except that it was covered with LEDs blinking randomly. And it
started selling.
Bula vinaka, folks!
T.
>
>John West
>Computers lost a lot when they lost front panel switches, flashing
>lights, and fish
Eugene N. Miya
"Phased plasma rifle in the 40-watt range?"
In article <LARRY.91A...@rock.psl.nmsu> la...@rock.psl.nmsu
(Larry Cunningham) writes:
>
>I really should go rent Wargames before I open my big mouth.
WG is an interesting movie to see how closely you audience is watching
the action. I have data points for Stanford, UCSC, and Gene Siskel.
So far UCSC's reviewers are the most observant.
>The IMSAI computer was real,
The fellows who wrote WG spoke locally at a CPSR meeting.
They noted their use of the IMSAI was to avoid any existing
business (probably to avoid lawsuit, the reverse of endorsements).
>As for speech units, I think the one Colossus forced Forbin to build was
"This is the voice of world control."
--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eug...@orville.nas.nasa.gov
Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
{uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Dan Sorenson -- Seed Testing Labortory
>In article <1991Aug21.2...@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ummo...@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Hodge Podge) writes:
>>In <1991Aug21.1...@solbourne.com> kuch...@solbourne.com (William Kucharski) writes:
>>>What's really hilarious is that the 6502 code is indeed
>>>commented as well (machines need to comment code?)...
>>
>>As I remeber the CSM-101 (the chassis under the T-600 and T-800) was
>>originally designed by humans. Which would mean they should be comments there.
>
>There would be comments in the source code, but not the compiled product.
>Why the source code would be still residing in the machine at that point
>is beyond me.
The source code is there for two reasons:
1) If the source code still resides, the machine is not reading or using it
anyway and hence the comments would be left in (machines are stupid, eh?)
2) If the machine is scrolling source code, it obviously wants to double-
check the compiled code it is running, and the comments are helping it to
understand what the human code designers were trying to do.
Actually, the only real reason I could think of is for field upgrades
in the event of a malfunction. It would probably be much easier for another
machine to patch the binaries directly, but that would mess with the special
effects and hence the continuity of the movie.
Personal Favorite: the computer in Star Trek (the original). Adding
the keyclicks, Silly Voice (tm), and flashing lights really made me feel that
they were in an honest-to-Gawd starship far beyond our technology. ;-)
<=====================================================================>
< Dan Sorenson, z1...@exnet.iastate.edu, nobody else claims the above >
<"I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation">
< -- M. McKean >
<=====================================================================>
Daniel Robert Figucio
In article <1991Aug23.1...@maths.tcd.ie> sbo...@maths.tcd.ie (doctorgonzo) writes:
>In <1991Aug22.1...@hplb.hpl.hp.com> s...@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Steve Loughran) writes:
>
>>Check out the scene where the humans are firing at a robot aircraft
>>through some kind of post-holocaust laser rifle.
>>Note what looks suspiciously like cobol code.
>
>Yeh... I could swear that in the left half of most of the 'Terminator-eye-view'
>shots there's 6502 assembly code scrolling past...
it is...
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| | |
| You're Damned If You Do | Symtab_index = Symtab_index+1; |
| You're Damned If you Don't | return(Symtab_index-1); |
| - Oh well, I can't lose... | - the most usefule code in the world|
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Life is what you make of it - Bacon Lettuce and Tomato on rye... |
| |
| 890...@ugrad.cs.su.oz.au - Guru Bartman |
| |
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
D John McKenna
>>
>>But everyone KNOWS its not a real computer unless its got lots of
>>flashing lights on the front. Look at the IBM PC. No flashing lights =>
>>not a real computer. Now look at the Connection Machine. LOTS&LOTS of
>>flashing lights => very real computer.
>>
Well, if they have a BIG red power switch and sound like a 747 taking
off, then I guess they'd have to be computers. Pretty good ones, too.
John West
Daniel Robert Figucio
>real `computory', LEDs, loads of LEDs switching on an' off with great
>tempo, suggesting speed, intelligence, danger, anything. How about that
>movie (forgot the title) about a little nerd, breaking into some host
>pentagon machine ... almost starting an SDI war with the russians. Did you
>ever see that? The machine just looks like some oversized magnetron, with
>too many LEDs on it! It even had more LEDs on it than the old IBM 1130.
>And that machine looked like a Xmas tree to me! (boy, am I old too) =8^)
>
>
War Games starring Matthew Broderick and Ally Sheedy (*sigh*)
Daniel Robert Figucio
>>What I really like about all these movies, is, they want computers to be
>>real `computory', LEDs, loads of LEDs switching on an' off with great
>>tempo, suggesting speed, intelligence, danger, anything. How about that
>>movie (forgot the title) about a little nerd, breaking into some host
>>pentagon machine ... almost starting an SDI war with the russians. Did you
>>ever see that? The machine just looks like some oversized magnetron, with
>>too many LEDs on it! It even had more LEDs on it than the old IBM 1130.
>>And that machine looked like a Xmas tree to me! (boy, am I old too) =8^)
>
>flashing lights on the front. Look at the IBM PC. No flashing lights =>
>not a real computer. Now look at the Connection Machine. LOTS&LOTS of
>flashing lights => very real computer.
>
What does that make most discos????
Bernd Meyer
>The IMSAI computer was real, but what about WOPR? WOPR looked like the
>remains of an old punchcard sorter (with rounded edges on the top), had
>a big LED display on it, and emitted an omninous Unnnnunnnnnunnnn sound like
>a 12-cylinder motor idling! Clearly an *evil* thing. I thought it was hilarous.
And on the LED-display there were patterns that looked exactly like what
a cheap hifi-sprectrum-analyzer would make out of some music....
Anyone with more knowledge than me, was it so? And if, which piece of music?
Asking,
Bernie
Russ
>In article <1991Aug25.0...@chinet.chi.il.us> kate...@chinet.chi.il.us (Chris'n'Vickie of Chicago) writes:
>> The mind boggles at the thought of seeing some military brass being
>>toured around the labs, being shown the Connection Machine, lights flashing
>>impressively suddenly start spelling out words a'la the Goodyear Blimp.
>> (Maybe somthing about the Military-Industrial Complex he-he....)
>
> Well, shine is kept running normally, because the brass DO need to
>see flashing lights to realize that it is a computer :-)
On a PDP-10 I was involved with installing we noticed an interesting
monitor call that would set a row of lights on the console. We made
the lights show strange and, over time, developed interesting patterns.
The younger ones in the crowd don't understand the allue of this - in
today's understanding making a computer do something amusing is
commonplace, and technically a nit. Back then it was a strange and
powerful thing to do. We had a ball making the console lights blip
back and forth, ping-pong, countup/down, etc.
Then came the fateful day someone noticed the ALU register display.
It was (as I recall, someone will correct me) 6 or 8 nice rows of 36
bits, one above the other, in something of a dot matrix display. It
should be possible, he thought, to display *something* on the ALU
register display. Hog the system enough (or at least the ALU...) and
it might be readable.
Thus started the MARQUE program. It worked, and ran nicely. As it
was a school system running a bunch of remote card readers and
printers at 110 baud it wasn't really loaded (I seem to recall an
averave of 98% idle time), and a typical display worked pretty well.
We could display semi-arbitrary messages using something like a 5x6
font (no descenders) and it would scroll right to left at a reasonable
pace. Worked like a champ, and we had fun sending "interesting"
messages to the operator.
Until the tour. We really didn't know that they were going to tour
the school board, honest, we didn't. Poor Rudy - took a *real* long
time to explain the messages sent to the operator on the ALU register
display...
--
Russ Kepler (posting from home)
try: ru...@bbx.basis.com or bbxrbk!ru...@bbx.basis.com
Jonas Yngvesson
>But then again, a few years back, I saw a pic of Thinking Machines Inc. new
>machine, and my, did it have a lot of lights, and for real too, I think.
Right, let's see if I remember this right (this is for the CM-2). Each
processor chip, containing 16 processors, have a LED associated to it.
Processor chips are arranged in pairs. On each circuit board there are 16
processor pairs. In each card cage there are 16 circuit boards. In a fully
equipped machine there are 8 card cages.
That would be (...counting on my fingers...) 4096 LEDs, right?
Now there's a *real* computer!
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J o n a s Y n g v e s s o n
Dept. of Electrical Engineering jon...@isy.liu.se
University of Linkoping, Sweden ...!uunet!isy.liu.se!jonas-y
Toshi Morita
s...@ivem1.uucp (Steve Lamont) writes:
(stuff deleted)
>memory. How exciting were those days in the middle 1970s were, when Byte
>was full of construction articles, not ads for databases, and Dr
>Dobb's Journal of Computer Calesthenics and (Something) Orthodontia
>was a random amalgam of source code, rumors, and philosophy (I ran
It WAS Dr Dobb's Journal of Computer Calesthenics and Orthodontia. I think
their slogan was "Running Light without Overbyte".
Remember all the nifty stuff? Tiny BASIC for the 6809, 2716 programmers, Using
(and Misusing) the Z80, adventure description languages, Small-C, hack a 68000
onto your AIM-65, etc.
BTW, did anyone ever write anything large in Pidgin? (William Gale's language
described in one of the DDJs). I ported it to the Apple //e about a year ago.
Toshi Morita
t...@well.fs.ca.us
Don Nichols (DoN.)
>s...@ivem1.uucp (Steve Lamont) writes:
[ ... ]
>The chip that ran the PDP-8 instruction set was the Intersil IM-6100.
>It was not in the Heathkit LSI-11 system for sure.
>That I know. But what happened to it???
I'll try to remember to dig up my antique Byte or Killobaud which
had an ad for the thing at work tomorrow.
>BTW, it would be interresting to see some sort of a list of "orphan"
>micro-processors. Here are my four first entries:
>
>Intersil IM-1600
>Fairchild F8 <--- was it the first embedded controller?
>RCA 1802 <--- who used it, besides Netronics?
>Signetics 2650
How about the REAL orphan, who even never had any siblings? It was
shown on the cover of Byte, one month, and was featured in an article
inside, a different month. It was "THE SPIDER", 7400-series chips, laid
dead-bug fashion on a workbench, leads soldered directly from pin to pin, it
just kept growing till it had the functionallity of a CPU. The
perpetrator's cat jumped across it (using it as a bounce point), and knocked
about half of it off the edge, WHILE IT WAS RUNNING! As of the time of the
article, nobody had had the nerve to try to move it back onto the bench,
because it might stop working then.
Dave Huang
>The younger ones in the crowd don't understand the allue of this - in
>today's understanding making a computer do something amusing is
>commonplace, and technically a nit. Back then it was a strange and
>powerful thing to do. We had a ball making the console lights blip
>back and forth, ping-pong, countup/down, etc.
Well, I'm sure there are still a few people around who like doing
things with flashing lights... after all, there are programs that make
the lights on IBM PC and Extended Macintosh keyboards do neat things.
Also, I once wrote a program that made the lights on a MIDI keyboard
bounce back and forth and do other neat things...
>--
>Russ Kepler (posting from home)
>try: ru...@bbx.basis.com or bbxrbk!ru...@bbx.basis.com
--
David Huang |
Internet: da...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | "Help! My ganglion is
UUCP: ...!ut-emx!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!daveh | stuck in some chewing gum!"
America Online: DrWho29 |
Joshua Bell
>>In <1991Aug21.1...@solbourne.com> kuch...@solbourne.com (William Kucharski) writes:
>>>What's really hilarious is that the 6502 code is indeed
>>>commented as well (machines need to comment code?)...
>>
>>As I remeber the CSM-101 (the chassis under the T-600 and T-800) was
>>originally designed by humans. Which would mean they should be comments there
>
>There would be comments in the source code, but not the compiled product.
>Why the source code would be still residing in the machine at that point
>is beyond me.
If the CSM-101 T-x00 (like 'x86 or '0x0) needs to reprogram itself, to work
around faults (see T2) it might need to understand what its programming means.
Yeah! Thats it! Yeah!... :)
But deliriously, does anyone have a freeze-frame VCR that could trap one
of the source-code banners? If so, I can check my extensive collection of
Nibble back issues, and see what software our cyborg friend was running.
(But why did it need key-check tables...?)
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "What are you expecting?" "World War III" -- Commando |
| |
| -don't use my old Bitnet address- Academic Computing Services |
| jsb...@acs.ucalgary.ca Internet University of Calgary, Canada |
| |
Scott C. Kennedy
Bernie,
I'm so glad you asked that. When I was watching the movie last time (NCCV 91)
I noticed the same thing and so I proceeded to capture the waveform information for that
display and did a statistical analysis to it. When you plot the spectrum as an amplitude
waveform and dump that through an audio port (/dev/audio on Suns works) you get....
Static. :)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott C. Kennedy (s...@watson.ibm.com) | This post does not reflect the intent
Distributed High Performance Computing | or actions of my employer, and their
IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Facility | actions don't reflect mine either.:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And there's no more toilet paper - It's gone just like the trees.
Do you like the taste of honey - Isn't it best without the bees?
Be careful what you're doing - you're messing up my life,
And if the world's a cake - then you cut too big a slice!" -P.I.L.
Robert Bernecky
>In article <samw.683164564@bucket> sa...@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden) writes:
>|j...@and.nl (J. Horsmeier) writes:
>|
>|>In article <15...@creatures.cs.vt.edu> lav...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu () writes:
>|>too many LEDs on it! It even had more LEDs on it than the old IBM 1130.
>|>And that machine looked like a Xmas tree to me! (boy, am I old too) =8^)
>
>Huh? Are we talking about the *same* 1130 here? 8-) The machine I worked on
>was desk-shaped, with a *huge* 18Meg harddisk in the right drawer part,
>a paper terminal (type writer) in the middle, and room left over on the left side.
>Right before your eyes was some scaffold like construction with LEDs
>all over, LEDs for the registers, LEDs for the I/O channels, LEDs for
>the LEDs ...
Hmmm. Seems to me that the 1130 had Incandescent Lamps, the same as any
other upstanding computer of its day. LEDs hadn't been invented yet,
if I recall correctly.
But, of course, the 1130 was a wimp in terms of lighting capability.
Now, the 360/75 and the 360/91 and /195: Those were REAL computers:
More than a thousand lamps on the console, a dozen or so of which
would burn out every day. Any time you wanted to display main store
or registers, you'd start by putting on your welder's mask, and hit
the Lamp Test button. Then replace all the burned out lamps, from the
omnipresent box of spares on the console, make your display/patch ,etc.,
then hit lamp test again, to be sure none had burned out in the interim.
Since the lamps were custom jobs (none of this flashlight bulb for IBM,
nosiree), they cost about $10 EACH back in the late 70's. I suspect THAT
cost was a major reason for moving to CRT displays. Not to mention the cost
of console power supplies...
Bob
Robert Bernecky r...@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.com bern...@itrchq.itrc.on.ca
Snake Island Research Inc (416) 368-6944 FAX: (416) 360-4694
18 Fifth Street, Ward's Island
Toronto, Ontario M5J 2B9
Canada
Thomas Grennefors TX/DKI
> In article <13...@baby.and.nl> j...@and.nl (J. Horsmeier) writes:
>And have a look at `Alien' (the first one), the computer (called `Mother')
>shows you loads of FORTRAN source code. With a dazzling speed!
>BTW it also displays tons of meaningless `0's and `1's on a simple CRT which
>the crew seems to understand!
Which reminds me of one of the worst "computer movies" i ever seen. I have
mercifully forgotten the name, but when they listed the micro code of the
processor (however they where able to do that on the terminal in the first
place) then BASIC was listed on the screen. This was the point where i turned
of the television. I alse think the computer took over the brain of a person
by displaying psycedelic graphic patterns on the vt100 terminal (:-) and got
energy by turning the terminal toward the window.
D John McKenna
>Well, I'm sure there are still a few people around who like doing
>things with flashing lights... after all, there are programs that make
>the lights on IBM PC and Extended Macintosh keyboards do neat things.
>Also, I once wrote a program that made the lights on a MIDI keyboard
>bounce back and forth and do other neat things...
One of my favourite 'silly Amiga programs that I wrote one afternoon
because I was bored' just sits there slowly fading the power light in
and out. Great program. I run it, and people stop, look at the screen,
and ask 'When is it going to do something?'
John West
The Polymath
}movie (forgot the title) about a little nerd, breaking into some host
"War Games"
}pentagon machine ... almost starting an SDI war with the russians. ...
}... The machine just looks like some oversized magnetron, with
}too many LEDs on it! ...
Actually, if you look closely, the computer resembles a railroad
locomotive. It seems they wanted to convey the idea of a very powerful
machine, so ...
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: holl...@ttidca.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 450-9111, x2483 No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA 90405 {rutgers|pyramid|philabs|psivax}!ttidca!hollombe
The Polymath
}
}> He was running a Hazeltine terminal and a Votrax speech synthesizer
}>connected to his RS-232C port so it'd read the text aloud. The modem was a US
}>Robotics.
}>
}>I was really surprised by the authenticity of the film - they used equipment
}>that a real computer hobbyist might own.
}
} Except that most hobbyists his age couldn't AFFORD all that :-) I
}didn't see the movie, so he might have had a rich dad or something.
Except that by the time that film was made, all that equipment was
hopelessly obsolete. He could have picked it up at a swap meet for a few
hundred bucks.
Don Stokes
> The chip that ran the PDP-8 instruction set was the Intersil IM-6100.
> It was not in the Heathkit LSI-11 system for sure.
> That I know. But what happened to it???
Not sure about the 6100, but the DECmate series all run on the Intersil 6120
chip, also an extended PDP-8 (12 bit words etc).
That of course makes the PDP-8 the longest serving of all DEC's
architectures.... (in terms of products actually being sold -- the DECmate III
has only recently been obsoleted.)
--
/ / Don Stokes, ZL2TNM (DS555) d...@zl2tnm.gp.co.nz (home)
/GP/ VMS Sys. Prog., Unix-weenie-in-training d...@gp.co.nz (work)
/ /___GP_Print_Ltd,_Wellington,_New_Zealand_______+64_4_4965_681_(landline)
Christian Brunschen
>Well, I'm sure there are still a few people around who like doing
>things with flashing lights... after all, there are programs that make
>the lights on IBM PC and Extended Macintosh keyboards do neat things.
>
I have written a little program that plays with the LEDs on a vt100
terminal (or, to be more exact, my FACIT TWIST ... which is vt100
compatible) . If there is sufficient interest, I could post it here.
Or perhaps on alt.sources , or something ...
>--
>David Huang |
>Internet: da...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | "Help! My ganglion is
>UUCP: ...!ut-emx!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!daveh | stuck in some chewing gum!"
>America Online: DrWho29 |
// Christian
--
+----------------------------------+------------------------+
| Christian Brunschen | SnailMail: |
| Internet : d8...@efd.lth.se | Husmansv{gen 26 |
| IRC : snooker | S - 222 38 Lund |
| Phone # : +46 46 131984 | Sweden |
+----------------------------------+------------------------+
| Unix is a registered bell of AT&T trademark laboratories. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| All above mentioned opinions are (c) Christian Brunschen, |
| unless otherwise stated. Feel free to copy & distribute. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Christian Brunschen
>
>Which reminds me of one of the worst "computer movies" i ever seen. I have
>mercifully forgotten the name, but when they listed the micro code of the
>processor (however they where able to do that on the terminal in the first
>place) then BASIC was listed on the screen. This was the point where i turned
>of the television. I alse think the computer took over the brain of a person
>by displaying psycedelic graphic patterns on the vt100 terminal (:-) and got
>energy by turning the terminal toward the window.
This `movie' was actually a TV series -- a Swedish TV series, which
probably hasn't reached outside Sweden (and that is a Good Thing!:),
called `Femte Generationen' , which would be `The Fifth Generation' in
English. It was about a computer, the `4042', which was a kind of
experimental, biological kind of thing (as far as I remember). And
somehow, during the development, things had gotten a little out of
hand, and it had started growing and developing far more than the
project could account for. Anyway, this computer was installed in a
BIG hostpital, and ran _everything_ there.
Now, the _human_ main character is this guy -- the son of a
Space Research Scientist, who works at the Swedish Space Agency (which
actually does exist), and is preparing a rocket to be launched from a
place in the north of Sweden. Meanwhile, the computer is getting ideas
of some kind. It sends the guy (son of scientist) a computer and a
modem (acoustic coupler, of course). When he starts the thing, ie, in
the instant he presses the reciever into the acoustic coupler, there
are sparks, lights, and an instant, >9600baud connection to the NIG
computer at the hospital, which uses posychedelic colour graphics
(over an acoustic coupler) to hypnotize him and take him over. (The
actual computer hardware, btw, was supplied by Hewlett-Packard ....
what _is_ their place in computer business anyway ? :). Seems the 4042
is a little too violent, and the guy faints. So, he is sent off to
hospital, where he gets an EEG taken (ie, electrodes are put on his
head to measure his brain activity). So what happens ? The 4042
downloads itself into the brain of the guy :) (remember -- it controls
_everything_ in this hospital).
Meanwhile, two systems programmers (who wrote the original
software for the 4042 (in BASIC :) ) , one man and one woman, try to
regain control of the renegade computer, using, among other things , a
backdoor password which the Lady programmer placed in there : `Iron
Maiden' :)
The guy, however, is behaving more and more strangely .... in
his spare time he constructs some kind of metal headband that is
connected to some electronic cirquitry. In the end, just before his
dad is going to launch the rocket, the guy leaps up to it (breaching
heavy security on the way in), puts the headband on, plugs his
home-made circuit board into the rocket, and downloads the 4042 into
the rocket, whichb then launches itself.
Nice, credible story, eh ? :)
So, now you know what you have missed -- _nothing_ !
Dan Hartung
>In article <95...@mcshh.hanse.de>, umi...@mcshh.hanse.de (Bernd Meyer) writes:
>|> la...@rock.psl.nmsu (Larry Cunningham) writes:
>|>
>|> And on the LED-display there were patterns that looked exactly like what
>|> a cheap hifi-sprectrum-analyzer would make out of some music....
>|> Anyone with more knowledge than me, was it so? And if, which piece of music?
>
>Bernie,
>I'm so glad you asked that. When I was watching the movie last time (NCCV 91)
>I noticed the same thing and so I proceeded to capture the waveform
>information for that display and did a statistical analysis to it. When
>you plot the spectrum as an amplitude waveform and dump that through
>an audio port (/dev/audio on Suns works) you get....
>Static. :)
Interesting. What the lights always looked like to me was a roughly 12x12
gameboard for John Conway's LIFE.
--
"In taking a state, the conqueror must arrange | Dan Hartung
to commit all his cruelties at once .... Whoever | dhar...@chinet.chi.il.us
acts otherwise, either through timidity or bad | Birch Grove Software
counsel, must always stand with knife in hand." -- Machiavelli
Speaker for the Dead
>In article <1991Aug24....@ceilidh.beartrack.com> dnic...@ceilidh.beartrack.com (Don Nichols (DoN.)) writes:
>}
>}> He was running a Hazeltine terminal and a Votrax speech synthesizer
>}>connected to his RS-232C port so it'd read the text aloud. The modem was a US
>}>Robotics.
>}>
>}>I was really surprised by the authenticity of the film - they used equipment
>}>that a real computer hobbyist might own.
>}
>} Except that most hobbyists his age couldn't AFFORD all that :-) I
>}didn't see the movie, so he might have had a rich dad or something.
>
>Except that by the time that film was made, all that equipment was
>hopelessly obsolete. He could have picked it up at a swap meet for a few
>hundred bucks.
OK, just to set the record straight, the movie *does* tell you where the
equipment all came from... the FBI or some such is interviewing the
kid's mother, accusing him of being into illegal stuff, and asks if she
knows where it all came from; turns out it was all sent to him by his
father. who worked in computers in (shaky on this) Saudi Arabia (?),
and sent his son the obsolete equipment they were going to scrap over
there... so yet, it was *supposed* to be nice, powerful stuff, but
outdated. See? they occasionally get something *right* by accident...
--Michael Kleber "I don't have an overactive imagination...
kle...@husc.harvard.edu I have an underactive reality..." --EG
Tim Pierce
>OK, just to set the record straight, the movie *does* tell you where the
>equipment all came from... the FBI or some such is interviewing the
>kid's mother, accusing him of being into illegal stuff, and asks if she
>knows where it all came from; turns out it was all sent to him by his
>father. who worked in computers in (shaky on this) Saudi Arabia (?),
>and sent his son the obsolete equipment they were going to scrap over
>there... so yet, it was *supposed* to be nice, powerful stuff, but
>outdated. See? they occasionally get something *right* by accident...
You apparently saw a different film than the one I did.
Steve Lamont
>Since the lamps were custom jobs (none of this flashlight bulb for IBM,
>nosiree), they cost about $10 EACH back in the late 70's. I suspect THAT
>cost was a major reason for moving to CRT displays. Not to mention the cost
>of console power supplies...
They had a real screwy way of inserting the bulb, as I recall. If you
inadvertently rotated the things 90 degrees you would lose the little
lamp down inside the machine and blow the lamp driver card -- at least
that's what happened to me once when I tried to replace a burned out
lamp on an IBM 1620 when I was a student.
Almost ended my computing career -- the machine was down for most of a
day, as I recall, and the DP shop manager was mad as hell!
spl (the p stands for
probably should have
called a hardware
person in to change
the bulb...)
--
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- s...@dim.ucsd.edu
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
"The complete seven-volume set of books, entitled _The Art of Computer
Programming_, has the following general outline..." -- D.E. Knuth
Scott Lord of Sith Kajihara
.
.
(references to equipment in cracker's room in "War Games")
.
.
.
>
>OK, just to set the record straight, the movie *does* tell you where the
>equipment all came from... the FBI or some such is interviewing the
>kid's mother, accusing him of being into illegal stuff, and asks if she
>knows where it all came from; turns out it was all sent to him by his
>father. who worked in computers in (shaky on this) Saudi Arabia (?),
>and sent his son the obsolete equipment they were going to scrap over
>there... so yet, it was *supposed* to be nice, powerful stuff, but
>outdated. See? they occasionally get something *right* by accident...
>
>--Michael Kleber "I don't have an overactive imagination...
> kle...@husc.harvard.edu I have an underactive reality..." --EG
Uh, I think that you are confusing the movie with the TV series "Whiz Kids."
In "War Games," the parents really had no clue as to what he was doing. The
series, for those who may not have seen it, involved three teenaged friends
(two boys and a girl) who got into some adventures/mysteries. One of the boys
had an enormous (and obsolete) computer system in the basement of his mother's
house. One episode involved embezzlement of a bank's funds, and it was at this
point the explanation of where the equipment originated was part of the plot.
As the mother noted, of course she knew what he had since it was necessary to
list for tax purposes. Hopefully, this will dispell the confusion to hardcore
"War Games" fans going "Huh, I don't remember that!"
Scott Kajihara
--
Scott Akira Kajihara "Insanity is a prerequisite for physics techie-types"
mcnc!kajihara kaji...@mcnc.org mcnc!{pyvax|pymvjb|pysgjb}!kajihara
kajihara@{pyvax|pymvjb|pysgjb}.nscu.edu kaji...@ncsuphys.BITNET
_et al._ of which I am not aware.
Donald Welsh
>In article <1991Aug26....@husc3.harvard.edu> pie...@husc4.harvard.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>>In article <1991Aug21.2...@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ummo...@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Hodge Podge) writes:
>>>In <1991Aug21.1...@solbourne.com> kuch...@solbourne.com (William Kucharski) writes:
>>>>What's really hilarious is that the 6502 code is indeed
>>>>commented as well (machines need to comment code?)...
>
>around faults (see T2) it might need to understand what its programming means.
>Yeah! Thats it! Yeah!... :)
>
It scanned in its software or patches in from back issues of Nibble. Due to
a bug in the optical character recognition routines, which the Evil
Administrators of the Future forever failed to find and fix, the Terminator
is dyslexic. After all, there is only so much you can expect of an
eight-bit CPU.
The Evil Administrators of the Future fixed the Terminator so that it did
not lie awake worrying whether there is a Dog. Consonant with the purpose
of its existence, the Terminator was programmed to believe that the Dog is
dead.
--
Donald Welsh | His particular sadistic specialty was contumely,
we...@latcs1.oz.au | which Melissa craved with an abject thirst.
| -- Karen Elizabeth Gordon
Steve Wilson x2580 dept303
>
>>RCA 1802 <--- who used it, besides Netronics?
The 1802 saw use in Burroughs Terminals amongst others as a
keyboard controller. Further, since this guy was made
out of CMOS on Saphire as memory serves, it saw use in
several satellites put up by amateur radio operators
since CMOSOS behaved well in high radiation environments.
Steve Wilson
Jin S Choi
>
>>And have a look at `Alien' (the first one), the computer (called `Mother')
>>shows you loads of FORTRAN source code. With a dazzling speed!
>>BTW it also displays tons of meaningless `0's and `1's on a simple CRT which
>>the crew seems to understand!
>
>Which reminds me of one of the worst "computer movies" i ever seen. I have
>mercifully forgotten the name, but when they listed the micro code of the
>processor (however they where able to do that on the terminal in the first
>place) then BASIC was listed on the screen. This was the point where i turned
Speaking of BASIC, does anyone remember the part in Superman III where
Richard Pryor, programming genius, shows his boss a screen and a half of
BASIC listing? His boss looks on in awe and asks how he did that. "I
don't know...."
Did anyone check what that program did?
--
--
Jin Choi
j...@athena.mit.edu
David E A Wilson
>This `movie' was actually a TV series -- a Swedish TV series, which
>probably hasn't reached outside Sweden (and that is a Good Thing!:),
>called `Femte Generationen' , which would be `The Fifth Generation' in
>English. It was about a computer, the `4042', which was a kind of
It has made it outside Sweden. It has been shown in Australia on the SBS
(Special Broadcasting Service) multicultural television channel TWICE.
I watched it all the first time round and was a bit peeved when they failed to
subtitle the final voice over during the closing credits (the 2nd screening did
have it translated - it was a news item describing what had happened).
I quite enjoyed it - COBOL and 68000 assembler listings in the 5th Generation
computer gave me a few laughs. The monitors tracking the sun were ridiculous.
--
David Wilson Dept Comp Sci, Uni of Wollongong da...@cs.uow.edu.au
Speaker for the Dead
>
>Uh, I think that you are confusing the movie with the TV series "Whiz Kids."
>
Whups. You're right; wrong show. Sorry 'bout that, folks...
Phil Gustafson
The design rule for the DEC pre-ic PDP series (thru the 8, 9, and 10)
was simple: one indicator light per flip-flop. The flip-flops had
special resistored outputs to drive the lamp drivers. When a computer
crashed, you could tell *exactly* the state it crashed in.
Exercise for the reader: If this rule were still in effect, how many
square inches of panel would a SPARC or MIPS cpu need? How many extra
pins? Would it be a good idea?
--
|play: ph...@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG; {ames|pyramid|vsi1}!zorch!phil |
|work: phil@gsi; sgi!gsi!phil | Phil Gustafson |
|1550 Martin Ave., San Jose CA 95126 | 408/286-1749 |
| Perform Random Kindness and Senseless Acts of Beauty |
Larry Cunningham
a controller. I am sure also that many of the GAS (Get Away Special) payloads
for shuttle used it.
Its architecture is a bit weird, but quite workable. And it couldn't be
beat for power consumption. As National came along with the NSC800 (Z80/8085
emulation), it displaced the 1802 in many of these applications, since the
available software for Z80 (or should I say 8080) was much more abundant.
I worked with many of these little 8-bit beasties on just such projects;
don't underestiate their capabilities.
Larry.
"Yeh, Buddy.. | lcun...@nmsu.edu (Larry Cunningham) | _~~_
I've got your COMPUTER! | % Physical Science Laboratory | (O)(-)
Right HERE!!" | New Mexico State University | /..\
(computer THIS!) | Las Cruces, New Mexico, USA 88003 | <>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are CORRECT, mine, and not PSLs or NMSUs..
Nick Felisiak
>In article <1991Aug21.2...@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ummo...@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Hodge Podge) writes:
>>In <1991Aug21.1...@solbourne.com> kuch...@solbourne.com (William Kucharski) writes:
>>>What's really hilarious is that the 6502 code is indeed
>>>commented as well (machines need to comment code?)...
>>
>
>There would be comments in the source code, but not the compiled product.
>Why the source code would be still residing in the machine at that point
>is beyond me.
>
I'm surprised no-one has suggested the obvious reason.
RMS programmed the CSM-101, and *insisted* that the source be shipped
with the object.
:-)
Nick
--
Nick Felisiak ni...@spider.co.uk
Spider Systems Limited +44 31 554 9424
Anthony A. Datri
--
--
Brain! Brain! What is Brain!?
Life...
>kle...@husc9.harvard.edu (Speaker for the Dead) writes:
>::[references to equipment in cracker's room in "WarGames"]
>>OK, just to set the record straight, the movie *does* tell you where the
>>equipment all came from...
>Uh, I think that you are confusing the movie with the TV series "Whiz Kids."
>In "War Games," the parents really had no clue as to what he was doing.
And further clarification of WarGames (one word):
According to the book, it claimed the terminal was a "battered Altair",
used an "ancient Sylvania nineteen-inch color TV" for a monitor, was
working on a game (in mostly BASIC), and an "IBM I machine beside him
that he had to use as a printer." That to outline how good of a source
the book is.
Anyway, the following section is appropriate:
In <WarG...@pgs.72-73> David Bischoff writes:
| "You know all my equipment?" he said, jangled from a
|recent bump.
| "Yeah. You've got scads of it!" said Jennifer, dodging a
|Farrah Fawcett look-alike coed.
| "How'd you think I could afford all that? My parents
|aren't exactly rich, and they really don't approve of my
|hobby."
| "Your obsession, you mean."
| "Yeah, well, whatever."
| "I dunno," said Jennifer. "You rob somebody?"
| "Uh uh. I got most of it from Jim Sting, real cheap."
| "A computer equipment fence?" Jennifer wondered.
| "Naw. He works here at the university's computer
|facility. Repair shop. He's a real whiz at it. He could do a lot
|of things with computers--and he does. But what he likes
|best is building them. He used to be a Phone Phreak.
|Messed Ma Bell all up, and never got caught."
| "What, with one of those little black boxes?"
| "You bet. Jim was the best. Then he just got tired of it.
|No more challenge, you know?" Daved gave her some
|direction, and they putt-putted across a green mall where
|students lounged or tossed Frisbees.
| "How'd you meet him?"
| "Classifieds. He had a disk drive I needed up for sale. So
|I met him and started asking questions, and pretty soon I
|was spending half my time with him, learning lots. Heck, I
|must have spent half of last summer in his shop. Worth four
|years in stupid Humphrey High. Up that hill, Jennifer, then
|around behind that building."
There was also mention that the dialing program he used was partially
written by Jim, earlier in the book, and later referred to him by the
name "Cap'n Crunch".
>--
> Scott Akira Kajihara "Insanity is a prerequisite for physics techie-types"
>mcnc!kajihara kaji...@mcnc.org mcnc!{pyvax|pymvjb|pysgjb}!kajihara
>kajihara@{pyvax|pymvjb|pysgjb}.nscu.edu kaji...@ncsuphys.BITNET
>_et al._ of which I am not aware.
(I still get mad that I have two versions of the book WarGames, where on
page 14, in one version they replaced "Sinsemilla? This grass made Thai
stick taste like oregano, man. It would law you flat." with: "Anti-war?
Sheila was such a pacifist, she would have made Gandhi look like Genghis
Khan by comparison." and yet still included the passage of David having
shoplifted a book (also by the author David Bischoff -- does he encourage
this?) in the "book club" edition. Can't they just leave the whole thing
alone? Only obvious external difference is that WarGames is in red on
the edited version, and green in the original.)
--
/// ____ \\\ DON'T "Ford, how many escape capsules are there?"
| |/ / \ \| | PANIC "None." "Did you count them?" "Twice. Did you
\\_|\____/|_// manage to raise the stage crew on the radio?"
greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu "Yeah, I said there was a whole bunch of people
gberigan`-' unlinfo.unl.edu on board." "And what did they say?" "`Hi.'"
Life...
> Personal Favorite: the computer in Star Trek (the original). Adding
>the keyclicks, Silly Voice (tm), and flashing lights really made me feel that
>they were in an honest-to-Gawd starship far beyond our technology. ;-)
"Good grief! Is this really the interior of a flying saucer?"
"It certainly is. What do you think?"
"Well it's a bit squalid, isn't it?"
"What did you expect?"
"Oh, I don't know, gleaming control panels, flashing lights, computer
screens... not old matresses."
-- Arthur Dent and Ford Prefect, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_
>< Dan Sorenson, z1...@exnet.iastate.edu, nobody else claims the above >
Hmm, perhaps I should set that as my .sig quote rather than:
Francis Stracke
>Exercise for the reader: If this rule were still in effect, how many
>square inches of panel would a SPARC or MIPS cpu need? How many extra
And how much power would it draw? Would you be able to look at it
without being blinded?
>pins? Would it be a good idea?
Obviously not. :-)
--
/============================================================================\
| Francis Stracke | My opinions are my own. I don't steal them.|
| Department of Mathematics |=============================================|
| University of Chicago | I'd rather have a bigot think I'm a |
| fra...@zaphod.uchicago.edu | homosexual than vice versa. |
\============================================================================/
Gardner Buchanan
>>RCA 1802 <--- who used it, besides Netronics?
I spent a while playing with a COSMAC-ELF semi-kit-homebrew which used one
of these babies. I think I remember it having non-compatible push and pop
stack instructions. Push did (in order) store and decrement, Pop did load
and increment so you always had to adjust the stack pointer after/before
stack operations.
Anyone remember that feature?
--
Gardner Buchanan gar...@shl.com
Systemhouse, Ottawa
(613) 236-6604 x375
Don Nichols (DoN.)
>In article <1991Aug29.0...@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> ph...@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Phil Gustafson) writes:
>
>>Exercise for the reader: If this rule were still in effect, how many
>>square inches of panel would a SPARC or MIPS cpu need? How many extra
>
>And how much power would it draw? Would you be able to look at it
>without being blinded?
>
>>pins? Would it be a good idea?
>
>Obviously not. :-)
Just not enough imagination - that's all :-)
Ship each chip with a built-in SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope)
head, and scan the display over the chip. You can tell the status of any
top-level circuit element by the effect its charge has on the electrons.
With a chip-map you can tell ANYTHING. (Assuming that the refresh logic for
any on-chip registers still works. :-)
Depending on the magnification ratio selected you could have a
virtual front-panel ACRES in size.
This would have the additional beneficial side-effect of retarding
oxidation of the bond-wires, and any other exposed circuit element, since
the SEM needs a vacuum to work. :-) Also, we have an oportunity for a new
round of miniaturization wars, to deal with the vacuum pump and the
deflection and e-beam equipment. With enough power to the e-beam gun, we
might even be able to perform field upgrades on the instruction set. :-)
--
Donald Nichols (DoN.) | Voice (Days): (703) 664-1585 (Eves): (703) 938-4564
D&D Data | Email: <dnic...@ceilidh.beartrack.com>
I said it - no one else | <dnic...@ceilidh.aes.com>
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Bertrand Petit
> In article <54...@ut-emx.uucp> da...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Dave Huang) writes:
>
> >Well, I'm sure there are still a few people around who like doing
> >things with flashing lights... after all, there are programs that make
> >the lights on IBM PC and Extended Macintosh keyboards do neat things.
> >
>
> I have written a little program that plays with the LEDs on a vt100
> terminal (or, to be more exact, my FACIT TWIST ... which is vt100
> compatible) . If there is sufficient interest, I could post it here.
> Or perhaps on alt.sources , or something ...
>
Yes! Post it (renember it's a trademark!)
--
| Bertrand Petit | Signature is under construction |
| alias | |
| >Elrond le demi-Elfe< | Be sure to wear your helmet |
Adams Douglas
visuals.
Joshua Bell
>ada...@crash.cts.com (Adams Douglas) writes:
>
>>I saw lots of classic Z80 assembler in the first Terminator's
>>visuals.
>
>
>
Odd that "Nibble" magazine, dedicated to Apple II's with 6502 chips, would
print listings for the Z80/TDL. And include KeyPerfect Check codes for them:
I watched it .5 hours ago. It was from Nibble. I've seen that listing.
Can't remember which issue tho. Sigh.
It was commented 6502 assembly code out of Nibble magazine, for the A2.
Discussion Terminated.
CSM-101 T-800 Z.02xJoshua B-|
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Are we so sure of our methods that we never question ourselves?" |
| -The Cloud Minders- ST:TOS |
| |
| jsb...@acs.ucalgary.ca Internet Academic Computing Services |
| Joshua-PernMUSH,SouCon,TinyTIM University of Calgary, Canada |
| |
Brian D. Howard
>I saw lots of classic Z80 assembler in the first Terminator's
>visuals.
TDL mnemonics at that.
--
"Old age and treachery will overcome youth and talent."
Harry Herman
> I put slip-on covers on the data and address switches, to mark them
>off in hex groupings. (Octal was for the Intel crowd - Motorola processers'
>opcodes were listed in Hex, which made more sense to me, especially given
>the problems that the Intel crown had between straight octal and split octal
>(forced by Intel processors putting addresses on the stack in reverse
>byte-order. :-)
But octal made since for the 8080, since there were 8 registers addressed
using 3 bits. So, you only had to memorize the order of the eight registers
and the common opcode prefixes and could assemble (or disassemble) the
code in your head. The Heathkit H-8 came with a very nice plastic sheet
that broke the instructions into table form using 4 sets of 8x8 grids,
with each set formed from the upper 2 bits, and each row of a set being
the next 3 bits, and the column being the low 3 bits. Made learning the
opcodes<->binary much easier, until I could afford to buy the H-19 terminal
and disk drives and use the DOS and assembler that came with the H-8.
Also, octal vs split octal took me all of five minutes to learn in
high school. The next machine I programmed on was a PDP-11 which also
used octal, due to its 8 register and 8 addressing modes per register
layout.
> I later used the SWTP machines, and missed the front panel (but
>needed the extra clock speed to run floppy-disk controllers).
>>Also, as hobby computers go, how about the Heathkit machines. I believe their
>>CPM machine had a front panel and I am almost sure their H11 had it or it was
>>available as an option (a la DEC).
You are talking about the Heathkit H-8, I presume. It used an 8080 processor,
and originally ran a cassette operating system, and then H-DOS when they came
out with floppies. Later they offered a custom version of CPM that could run
SOME CPM programs, but not all, due to the fact that Heathkit had reserved ROM
and RAM starting at address 0. An even later option for the H-8 was a
"zero-org" option that added bank switched RAM starting at address 0, and a
new bootstrap that copied the ROM to RAM and then activated the RAM so that
all future reads went to the RAM. This was supposed to allow standard CPM
to run. About the same time, Heathkit released a Z-80 board for the H-8.
Then they decided to release an 8086 based system, followed by a PC clone, and
then they left the hobbiest behind and headed for the small business owner.
> Well, it depends on what you call a front panel. It did have a
>seven-segment display and a keypad (for Octal, I believe), but it wasn't the
>same as the row of leds and switches for the address and data buses.
You are correct that the H-8 had a seven segment display. The PROMs used it
for Octal, but since the keypad was a 16 key keypad, and you could take over
the display yourself, you could use the display for HEX (yech). I can't
remember if the Z-80 board used the display, and if so, whether it used it
in HEX or octal.
>--
>Donald Nichols (DoN.) | Voice (Days): (703) 664-1585 (Eves): (703) 938-4564
>D&D Data | Email: <dnic...@ceilidh.beartrack.com>
>I said it - no one else | <dnic...@ceilidh.aes.com>
> --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
--
------------------------------------------------
Harry Herman Corpane Industries, Inc.
UUCP: her...@corpane.uucp
Internet: herman%cor...@uunet.uu.net
Don Nichols (DoN.)
>In <1991Aug26.0...@ceilidh.beartrack.com> dnic...@ceilidh.beartrack.com (Don Nichols (DoN.)) writes:
>
>> I put slip-on covers on the data and address switches, to mark them
>>off in hex groupings. (Octal was for the Intel crowd - Motorola processers'
>>opcodes were listed in Hex, which made more sense to me, especially given
>>the problems that the Intel crown had between straight octal and split octal
>>(forced by Intel processors putting addresses on the stack in reverse
>>byte-order. :-)
>
>But octal made since for the 8080, since there were 8 registers addressed
>using 3 bits. So, you only had to memorize the order of the eight registers
>and the common opcode prefixes and could assemble (or disassemble) the
>code in your head. The Heathkit H-8 came with a very nice plastic sheet
>that broke the instructions into table form using 4 sets of 8x8 grids,
>with each set formed from the upper 2 bits, and each row of a set being
>the next 3 bits, and the column being the low 3 bits. Made learning the
>opcodes<->binary much easier, until I could afford to buy the H-19 terminal
>and disk drives and use the DOS and assembler that came with the H-8.
I'll grant that it helped to decode the instruction set, but using a
notation which uses a non-integer number of digits per byte, and a different
non-integer number of digits per address, and puting the address into memory
in a form which meant that you had to essentialy go through binary to convert
from one to the other seems somewhat counter-intuitive. The early machines
had the address as a row of 16 lights and switches across the front panel,
if you were thinking of it as an address, you would look at the switches and
say "177777". Then you go to put it into memory for the program counter or
an address register to pick up, and you have to say "Woops, now I have to
call it 277,277, and remember to put the least significant byte in before
the most significant byte." Sure it could be done, and sure the principal
is easy to learn, and you even get proficient at it with practice, but it
still makes more sense to me to have a notation which matches cleanly with
both the word size (8 bits), and the address size (16 bits), and if you DO
have to swap MSB and LSB for any reason, you have a clean cut between two
characters, instead of having to split off the upper bits of the LSB, and
shift the digits of the MSB before adding in the overflow from the LSB.
With Hex, it is nice and clean, 'FFFF' becomes 'FF and FF', and the
processor that I chose even wants the bytes in a more intuitive order. (Of
course, to get this, the stack pushes towards lower addresses, and pops
towards higher ones :-)
>Also, octal vs split octal took me all of five minutes to learn in
>high school. The next machine I programmed on was a PDP-11 which also
>used octal, due to its 8 register and 8 addressing modes per register
>layout.
Now, with the predecessor of the PDP-11, the PDP-8, octal did make
more sense, because it fit properly with the 12-bit words.
[ ... ]
>>>Also, as hobby computers go, how about the Heathkit machines. I believe their
>>>CPM machine had a front panel and I am almost sure their H11 had it or it was
>>>available as an option (a la DEC).
The above fragment was from the person to whom I was following-up.
I had intended to put in that my discussion applied to the H-8, rather than
the H-11, which would have been available with a full leds & switches front
panel, even if, perhaps, only from DEC.
[ ... Info about H-8 history deleted ... ]
>> Well, it depends on what you call a front panel. It did have a
>>seven-segment display and a keypad (for Octal, I believe), but it wasn't the
>>same as the row of leds and switches for the address and data buses.
>
>You are correct that the H-8 had a seven segment display. The PROMs used it
>for Octal, but since the keypad was a 16 key keypad, and you could take over
>the display yourself, you could use the display for HEX (yech). I can't
>remember if the Z-80 board used the display, and if so, whether it used it
>in HEX or octal.
But, if you have only 16 switches, and you re-assign them for Hex
entry, how are you going to tell it where to put the digits as you enter
them :-) To make a hex front panel that does anything USEFUL, you need more
than 16 switches. (Well, you COULD have a program which read from the
keypad, and saved the codes, eg - transferring a conversion table into a
ROM, but you would also need a terminal for starting that program, and for
telling it "Hold on now! Back up one byte, I miskeyed that one!") There
were times when I would have liked to have a hex keypad beside the terminal
for entering data for roms, but up on that sloped front panel is a bit
awkward. It DOES beat programing from the front-panel switches of the 680b,
in which you had to set up the Address switches anew for each byte you
entered. No such thing as an auto-increment address in THAT panel design,
but it WOULD work even when the cpu was non-compos-mentis :-)
Mark North
>In article <IISAKKIL.91...@vipunen.hut.fi> iisa...@vipunen.hut.fi (Mika R Iisakkila) writes:
>>>RCA 1802 <--- who used it, besides Netronics?
>I spent a while playing with a COSMAC-ELF semi-kit-homebrew which used one
>of these babies. I think I remember it having non-compatible push and pop
>stack instructions. Push did (in order) store and decrement, Pop did load
>and increment so you always had to adjust the stack pointer after/before
>stack operations.
I built one of these from the plans in Popular Electronics, I believe. It had
all of 256 bytes of memory in 2 40 pin dips. I remember calculating that if
I was to have 65k I would need to come up with >$3000. It's still in the
garage somewhere.
>Anyone remember that feature?
I don't recall but don't doubt it in the least. The 1802 was my first
exposure to CPU's and I'm lucky it didn't ruin me for life.
Mark
Christian Brunschen
>In article <1991Aug28.0...@lth.se>, d8...@efd.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) writes:
>>
>> I have written a little program that plays with the LEDs on a vt100
>> terminal (or, to be more exact, my FACIT TWIST ... which is vt100
>> compatible) . If there is sufficient interest, I could post it here.
>> Or perhaps on alt.sources , or something ...
>>
>
> Yes! Post it (renember it's a trademark!)
>--
While I _did_ post it to alt.sources, here it comes ...
it's not like it's a gross waste of bandwidth -- the .shar file is only
about 6 kB large.
So anyway, here goes : leds. If you can't see it yet, that's because of my
way-too-large .signature hanging between this text and the shar file.
Have fun!
// Christian
--
+----------------------------------+------------------------+
| Christian Brunschen | SnailMail: |
| Internet : d8...@efd.lth.se | Husmansv{gen 26 |
| IRC : snooker | S - 222 38 Lund |
| Phone # : +46 46 131984 | Sweden |
+----------------------------------+------------------------+
| Unix is a registered bell of AT&T trademark laboratories. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| All above mentioned opinions are (c) Christian Brunschen, |
| unless otherwise stated. Feel free to copy & distribute. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
# This is a shell archive. Remove anything before the "#!/bin/sh" line
# then unpack it by saving it in a file and typing "sh file"
# (Files unpacked will be owned by you and have default permissions).
# This archive contains the following files:
# ./README.leds
# ./leds.c
# ./leds.mk
#
if `test ! -s ./README.leds`
then
echo "writing ./README.leds"
sed 's/^Z//' > ./README.leds << '___END_OF_THIS_FILE'
Zleds.README
Z===========
Z
ZAn introduction to the `leds' program.
Z
ZWhat does it do ?
Z=================
ZNot much. It plays with the 4 little LED's that can be found on the keyboard
Zof a vt100-compatible terminal. It can display a number of different pattern,
Zand can be used to load your own ones as well.
Z
ZSynopsis:
Z
Z leds [[-t time] [-m mode] | [-l pattern]]
Z
ZOptions:
Z
Z -t time
Z sets the time it takes for leds to conclude 1 `round'
Z of the current pattern. Used only with -m mode.
Z
Z -m mode
Z sets `leds' to run continuously, displaying a patter according
Z to `mode'. `mode' may be one of:
Z
Z `bounce'
Z one lit led bounces back and forth, left-right.
Z
Z `left'
Z one lit led `rolls' from right to left, again and
Z again.
Z
Z `right'
Z as `left', but miving left-to-right instead.
Z
Z `random'
Z after each interval, a new random pattern of lit,
Z dark and flashing led's is loaded.
Z
Z `mode'
Z after each interval, one of the other modes is
Z randomly chosen, and displayed for the next interval.
Z
Z -l value
Z loads the led's with `value', which is a 4-digit decimal
Z number, where each digit corresponds to one led, and is
Z interpreted as:
Z
Z 0 dark
Z 1 lit
Z 2 flashing
Z
Z All other digits are ignored.
Z
ZBUGS
Z No much error checking. Bogus options usually result in a core dump.
Z
Z No real manual page -- just this README file.
Z
ZFEATURES
Z Since this program does an `fflush' after each change in the LED's,
Z it can be run as a background process, and , even over a serial line,
Z the output from `leds', does not interfere with other output (since it
Z is intercepted by the terminal), as long as you are running something
Z interactive (like a shell or so). However, it quite naturally _would_
Z interfere with any files you tried to download :) This, btw, is not
Z something I have researched -- but it _is_ observed behaviour on a
Z Sun 3/80 with a vt100 over a modem at 2400 baud.
Z
ZAUTHOR
Z Christian Brunschen (d8...@efd.lth.se)
Z
___END_OF_THIS_FILE
else
echo "will not over write ./README.leds"
fi
if [ `wc -c ./README.leds | awk '{printf $1}'` -ne 1945 ]
then
echo `wc -c ./README.leds | awk '{print "Got " $1 ", Expected " 1945}'`
fi
if `test ! -s ./leds.c`
then
echo "writing ./leds.c"
sed 's/^Z//' > ./leds.c << '___END_OF_THIS_FILE'
Z#include <stdio.h>
Z#include <sys/types.h>
Z#include <sys/time.h>
Z
Zenum {BOUNCE, ROLL_LEFT, ROLL_RIGHT, RANDOM, N_MODES};
Z
Zchar * led_progname;
Z
Zvoid led_error (s1, s2)
Zchar * s1, s2;
Z{
Z fprintf (stderr, "%s: %s%s\n", led_progname, s1, s2);
Z exit (-1);
Z}
Z
Zvoid light (i)
Zint i;
Z{
Z printf ("\033[%iq", i);
Z}
Z
Zvoid flash (i)
Zint i;
Z{
Z printf ("\033[?%it", i);
Z}
Z
Zvoid clear ()
Z{
Z printf ("\033[0q\033[?0t");
Z}
Z
Zvoid load (v)
Zint v;
Z{
Z int i, y;
Z y=v;
Z clear();
Z for (i=4; i>0; i--)
Z {
Z switch (y % 10)
Z {
Z case 0: /* dark */
Z /* do nothing */
Z break;
Z case 1: /* lit */
Z light (i);
Z break;
Z case 2: /* flashing */
Z flash (i);
Z break;
Z }
Z y /= 10;
Z }
Z}
Z
Zvoid bounce (t)
Zunsigned int t;
Z{
Z int i;
Z unsigned int s;
Z s = t / 6;
Z for (i=1; i<4; i++)
Z {
Z clear();
Z light (i);
Z fflush (stdout);
Z usleep (s);
Z }
Z for (i=4; i>1; i--)
Z {
Z clear();
Z light (i);
Z fflush (stdout);
Z usleep (s);
Z }
Z}
Z
Zvoid roll (t, min, max, step)
Zunsigned int t;
Zint min, max, step;
Z{
Z int i;
Z unsigned int s;
Z s = t / ((abs (max - min)) / abs (step));
Z for (i = min; i != max; i += step)
Z {
Z clear();
Z light (i);
Z fflush (stdout);
Z usleep (s);
Z }
Z}
Z
Zvoid random (t)
Zunsigned int t;
Z{
Z int i, ran, mran;
Z clear();
Z ran = rand();
Z for (i=1; i<5; i++)
Z {
Z mran = ran % 3;
Z switch (mran)
Z {
Z case 0: /* dark */
Z /* do nothing -- cleared */
Z break;
Z case 1: /* lit */
Z light (i);
Z break;
Z case 2: /* flashing */
Z flash (i);
Z break;
Z }
Z ran /= 3;
Z }
Z fflush (stdout);
Z usleep (t);
Z}
Z
Zmain(argc, argv)
Zint argc;
Zchar ** argv;
Z{
Z unsigned int time_between=1000000, argn, mode=0, random_mode = 0;
Z led_progname = argv[0];
Z srand (time(NULL));
Z for (argn = 1; argn < argc && argv[argn][0] == '-'; argn++)
Z {
Z switch (argv[argn][1])
Z {
Z case 't':
Z time_between = 1000 * atoi(argv[++argn]);
Z break;
Z case 'm':
Z argn++;
Z if (!strcmp(argv[argn], "bounce"))
Z mode = BOUNCE;
Z else if (!strcmp(argv[argn], "left"))
Z mode = ROLL_LEFT;
Z else if (!strcmp(argv[argn], "right"))
Z mode = ROLL_RIGHT;
Z else if (!strcmp(argv[argn], "random"))
Z mode = RANDOM;
Z else if (!strcmp(argv[argn], "mode"))
Z random_mode = 1;
Z else
Z led_error ("Unknown Mode : ", argv[argn]);
Z break;
Z case 'l':
Z load (atoi(argv[++argn]));
Z exit (0);
Z default:
Z led_error ("Unkown Flag : ", argv[argn]);
Z }
Z }
Z if (argn < argc)
Z led_error ("Unknown Option : ", argv[argn]);
Z
Z while (1)
Z {
Z if (random_mode)
Z mode = rand () % N_MODES;
Z switch (mode)
Z {
Z case BOUNCE:
Z bounce (time_between);
Z break;
Z case ROLL_LEFT:
Z roll (time_between, 1, 5, 1);
Z break;
Z case ROLL_RIGHT:
Z roll (time_between, 4, 0, -1);
Z break;
Z case RANDOM:
Z random (time_between);
Z break;
Z }
Z }
Z}
Z
___END_OF_THIS_FILE
else
echo "will not over write ./leds.c"
fi
if [ `wc -c ./leds.c | awk '{printf $1}'` -ne 2943 ]
then
echo `wc -c ./leds.c | awk '{print "Got " $1 ", Expected " 2943}'`
fi
if `test ! -s ./leds.mk`
then
echo "writing ./leds.mk"
sed 's/^Z//' > ./leds.mk << '___END_OF_THIS_FILE'
ZCC= gcc
ZCFLAGS= -O -s
Z
Zleds : leds.c
Z $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -o leds leds.c
___END_OF_THIS_FILE
else
echo "will not over write ./leds.mk"
fi
if [ `wc -c ./leds.mk | awk '{printf $1}'` -ne 69 ]
then
echo `wc -c ./leds.mk | awk '{print "Got " $1 ", Expected " 69}'`
fi
echo "Finished archive 1 of 1"
# if you want to concatenate archives, remove anything after this line
exit
Terry Carroll
>
>Speaking of BASIC, does anyone remember the part in Superman III where
>Richard Pryor, programming genius, shows his boss a screen and a half of
>BASIC listing? His boss looks on in awe and asks how he did that. "I
>don't know...."
>
it was an IBM 3705 communications controllr.. but it did have nice flashing
lights.
-tc
Peter Van Roy
> The 1802 saw use in Burroughs Terminals amongst others as a
> keyboard controller. Further, since this guy was made
> out of CMOS on Saphire as memory serves, it saw use in
> several satellites put up by amateur radio operators
> since CMOSOS behaved well in high radiation environments.
>
> Steve Wilson
>
I have heard that a Viking spacecraft contains an 1802, so there is one
sitting on Mars. Does anyone have more details on this?
BTW, the 1805 (the followup to the 1802) is highly suited to Forth.
It has a single instruction which does almost all of the Forth
"Enter Word" routine (for a direct threaded implementation) and it
can do Forth's "Next" operation in a single instruction as well.
Peter Van Roy
KPUR...@liverpool.ac.uk
A lot of index registers and two neat features:
1. they were static devices -- so if you toggled the clock you could see
it "single-step" through cycles. Very educational if you had LEDs attached
to bufferes on all the lines that meant anything.
2. They had a hardware DMA-like feature -- you could load up an address
with the toggles then toggling another line would get the 1802 to increment
the address and you could examine modify the next location.
The later feature was put to use in the OSCARs (specifically O-10) where
the ground telecommand system could upload a new program to the onboard
computer which would get put into memory by the hardware using this
mechanism -- so it didn't need a bootstrap ROM and could never get into
a solipistic state (unlike the PHOBOS machines!).
KEvin
Kevin Purcell | kpur...@liverpool.ac.uk
Surface Science |
Liverpool University | "Advocates of chiselism should educate new chiselists
Liverpool L69 3BX | on proper form" --Larry Tesler on OOP and cold chisels
Magnus Olsson
>I remeber wanting an 1802 -- I thought they were quite cool.
I've never programmed an 1802 in real life, but since it seems to have been
quite popular, and many people have written appreciatingly of it, I looked
up its architecture. I was surpirsed to see how horrible it is - IMAO it
seems utterly unsuited for any high-level programming; programming it seems
to be a real pain in the neck. In fact, the book where I read about it
(some handbook with information and datasheets about all the 8-bit
processors common in the early eighties) couldn't see _any_ reason for
using it unless you _really_ needed to take advantage of the CMOS technology
(low power consumption, a wide supply voltage range).
>A lot of index registers and two neat features:
>
>1. they were static devices -- so if you toggled the clock you could see
>it "single-step" through cycles. Very educational if you had LEDs attached
>to bufferes on all the lines that meant anything.
>
>2. They had a hardware DMA-like feature -- you could load up an address
>with the toggles then toggling another line would get the 1802 to increment
>the address and you could examine modify the next location.
I can agree that the two "neat features" really _are_ neat. However, to me
they seem to be the _only_ neat features of the chip...
There _are_ many (16) index registers (that can alternate as pairs of data
registers). What you forget to mention is that the _only_ way of accessing
memory is through these. You can load data either by directly specifying
one of these registers as a pointer to memory, or using a special four-bit
control register to point to a register that points to memory. You can
either post-increment the address register, or leave it as it is.
So far, so good. (Relatively speaking).
However, the _only_ addressing mode when _storing_ data is by
post-incrementing the address register. This means that
a) you can't store a value to the same address twice without resetting the
address regsiter in between
b) there is no way of easily implementing a software stack.
This is even worse than it sounds, since the processor has no hardware stack
either, and of course no sensible mechanism for subroutine calls.
[All this said with the reservation that I might have misunderstood
something in the datasheet, or not remember it correctly. But this is a
folklore group, after all :-)]
So, while I can understand that the 1802 had some attraction to designers of
microcontrollers and such, I have some difficulty understanding the
popularity of the 1802 in _home computers_. Writing a Basic interpreter for
the 1802 looks like a nightmarish task to me, not to speak of how slow it
must run...
So, all you 1802-lovers out there - I'd be interested to hear what you have
to say in defence of your machine. Why was it so popular among hobbyists
despite its bletcherously brain-damaged architecture?
--
Magnus Olsson | \e+ /_
Dept. of Theoretical Physics | \ Z / q
University of Lund, Sweden | >----<
Internet: mag...@thep.lu.se | / \===== g
Bitnet: THEPMO@SELDC52 | /e- \q
Karl Mosgofian
board. Granted, I would not want to write a BASIC in 1802, but that was
way above my level at the time I used it. I was starting raw, like a lot
of people with cheap single board computers (remember the KIM?). Machine
code (not assembler) is pretty heavy stuff when your previous experience
is with an HP1000 playing trek73 (more trivia...). What I really liked
was the cheap video chip RCA made, which had something like 128x32
resolution. For about $150 you could get a single board that would make
pictures, which was a big thrill.
M.D.Fischer
microprocessor fairly early on in the 70s. You could build a controller
with it with few other chips, it ran very slowly (500khz comes to mind)
but very reliably, it had low power requirements, was resistant to
noise, it was trivial to interface to virtually any chip family, and
you could produce a final product that consisted of a ROM and no
external memory, using the on board registers for storing values.
Doubtless the support it gained from Popular Electronics, and two
subsequent companies that set up delivering a $90 computer with 256
bytes of memory, keypad, and two digit hex display (the Elf) and a
video interface! (possibly the first widely available system capable of
bitmapped graphics, even with 256 bytes) did it no harm with the hobby
crowd. I believe that the KIM was costing 300-400 at that time with 1k
memory.
It was a real pain for convention programming techniques, if the
program was very large. On the other hand for small programs its wasn't
much trouble, it had your choice of 16 stacks, program counters etc.
Until the 6809 came along it was the best architecture I came across
for Forth. Despite its incredibly slow speed (a well written cos
function could take 300ms), in general use as a forth machine it
performed as well as a 1mhz 6502 or 2mz 6800, neither of which had a
forth-friendly attitude.
Michael Fischer
Centre for Social Anthropology and Computing
cs...@uk.ac.ukc
Mike Ardai
-The 1802 was popular because it was widely available 8 bit
-microprocessor fairly early on in the 70s.
...
- it ran very slowly (500khz comes to mind)
Since it was a static CMOS part, it could be run as slow as you
wanted. Both Elfs (Quest and Netronics) ran at (colorburst/2)
because of the pixie. According to the databook, the max speed
was 3.2 MHz (5 to 7.5 us instruction time) for the 1802C and
6.4 MHz (2.5 to 3.75 us instruction time) for the 1802.
/mike
--
\|/ Michael L. Ardai N1IST Teradyne EDA East
--- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
/|\ ar...@teda.teradyne.com
Andreas Gustafsson
writes about the 1802:
> ... the _only_ addressing mode when _storing_ data is by
> post-incrementing the address register. This means that
>
> a) you can't store a value to the same address twice without resetting the
> address regsiter in between
>
> b) there is no way of easily implementing a software stack.
This is not true. The 1802 has a STR (store) instruction that does
not adjust the address register. It also has STXD which is a store
with postdecrement. There is no store with postincrement.
On the load side, there is both LDN (no adjustment) and LDA/LDXA
(postincrement), but no decrement.
The biggest problem with implementing a software stack on the 1802 is
that STXD and LDA/LDXA are not complementary: they are both
post-Xcrement (no pun intended), instead of having predecrement and
postincrement.
For example, saving and restoring the 16-bit register R9 on the stack
goes something like this, assuming R2 is the stack pointer (it usually
is):
GHI R9 .. Get HIgh part of R9
STXD .. Store through r(X) and Decrement
GLO R9 .. Get LOw part of R9
STXD .. Store through r(X) and Decrement
....
INC R2 .. INCrement R2
LDA R2 .. LoaD and Advance (i.e., postincrement)
PLO R9 .. Put in LOw part of R9
LDN R2 .. Load through r(N) (no increment)
PHI R9 .. Put in HIgh part of R9
All these are single-byte instructions, so the save takes 4 bytes
and the restore takes 5. Some modern RISCs need 8 for each...
Note that the STXD instruction does not contain a reference to R2 but
instead uses the value of the 4-bit X register to determine which
register to use, assuming it has the value 2 (it usually does). To
SEt X you use the infamous instruction called SEX (don't start yet
another thread about funny mnemonics, please...).
> So, while I can understand that the 1802 had some attraction to designers of
> microcontrollers and such, I have some difficulty understanding the
> popularity of the 1802 in _home computers_.
As another poster already remarked, the 1861 video controller chip
probably had a lot to do with it. It made it possible to build a
computer capable of running simple video games for something like a
tenth of the price of an Apple II.
> Writing a Basic interpreter for the 1802 looks like a nightmarish task
> to me, not to speak of how slow it must run...
The original TINY BASIC for the 1802 was a two-level interpreter
(i.e., written in a small, special-purpose language interpreted by an
1802 machine code program). It ran in 3 k of memory and yes, it was
slow.
> Why was it so popular among hobbyists
> despite its bletcherously brain-damaged architecture?
Here in Finland there was a very active 1802 users' group which had
some 500 members. It still exists but membership is now down to about
40. I also have a friend who still designs the 1802 into new
equipment, because it's the processor he knows best...
--
Andreas Gustafsson (proud member of 1800 Users' Club ry.)
Internet: gs...@niksula.hut.fi
Voice: +358 0 563 5592
Peter da Silva
I went digging around through my old listings box, looking for 1802 stuff.
Here's my old Ratfor for the PDP-11, and an 1802 assembler in Ratfor, and
all sorts of 1802 code including my much-hacked copy of Fig Forth for the
1802 to run under Hydril's MCP real-time operating system. Calls to MCP
were all through absolute addresses which changed from release to release
so I had to rebuild Forth each time. Here we go:
START: NOP; LBR COLD
..
NEXT1: SEP $PC
_NEXT: LDA $IP; PHI $WP
LDA $IP; PLO $WP
WBR: LDA $WP; PHI $PC
LDA $WP; PLO $PC
BR NEXT1
..
,#83,T'LI',#D4
,#0000
LIT: ,A(*+2)
INC $SP; INC $SP
LDA $IP; STR $SP; INC $SP
LDA $IP; STR $SP; DEC $SP
SEP NEXT
Sort of proves that there wasn't any Store and Increment, BTW. Ah, the
good old days, may they stay buried. I never want to implement printf
in Fortran again.
--
-- Peter da Silva. 3D0G `-_-'
-- Taronga Park BBS.
-- +1 713 568 0480|1032 2400/n/8/1.
-- "Have you hugged your wolf today?"