Brandeis U: Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
Ted Frank
eminently literary Lee Rudolph has joined the newsgroup since I
last asked this question, I'd like to run an urban legend from my
undergraduate days up the proverbial flagpole and see what its
voracity is.
Edward Albee was a visiting professor at Brandeis University. It
is said that the play "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" is based upon
his first-hand experiences there with two Brandeis professors (both
of whom were still at the school decades later; one of whom we shall
call "Jerry" for the sake of simplicity). This, along with "the
science library is named after the guy who invented the Q-tip" and
"back in the days when Brandeis had the toughest admission standards
in the country, Brandeis was invited to join the Ivy League but decided
that it didn't want to emphasize athletics as much as the Ivies did, and
turned it down," are the three big urban legends on the Brandeis campus,
and I haven't been able to track down the source of any of them.
Any help? I'd be interested in hearing from Brandeis attendees from
before 1987 to see how far back any of these stories go. Too, if
anyone has information confirming or refuting the ULs, it would be
cool.
Followups set to the alt.folklore.* groups.
--
ted frank | "It was, in fact, in furtherance of the _Terry_
th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu | pat down that Officer Jones found the bulge in
the u of c law school | the area of Clipper's crotch."
standard disclaimers | -- U.S. v Clipper, 973 F2d 944 (DC Cir 1992)
Rafi Levavy
>Now that all the Wall Street Journal lurkers are around, plus the
>eminently literary Lee Rudolph has joined the newsgroup since I
>last asked this question, I'd like to run an urban legend from my
>undergraduate days up the proverbial flagpole and see what its
>voracity is.
>Edward Albee was a visiting professor at Brandeis University. It
>is said that the play "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" is based upon
>his first-hand experiences there with two Brandeis professors (both
>of whom were still at the school decades later; one of whom we shall
>call "Jerry" for the sake of simplicity). This, along with "the
I believe that my theater prof. said that he had worked with Edward
Albee (he didn't say anything about Virginia Wolf, though, and he
probably would have).
>science library is named after the guy who invented the Q-tip" and
They do say this in Admissions training
>"back in the days when Brandeis had the toughest admission standards
>in the country, Brandeis was invited to join the Ivy League but decided
>that it didn't want to emphasize athletics as much as the Ivies did, and
>turned it down," are the three big urban legends on the Brandeis campus,
This in _NOT_ true. The Ivy League is a football league, and since
Brandeis doesn't have a football team, it would not be easy to join
the Ive League. However, that _WAS_ the reason that the football team
was abolished in (?) either '59 or '69.
>and I haven't been able to track down the source of any of them.
>Any help? I'd be interested in hearing from Brandeis attendees from
>before 1987 to see how far back any of these stories go. Too, if
>anyone has information confirming or refuting the ULs, it would be
>cool.
Rafi
******************************************************************************
Rafi Levavy A.K.A Raf-Man, Number 8, Shorts, Rafi No-Pants
(Not Jacques) The Thermal Wonder, The Candy Man
"He wears shorts and a shirt and socks."
-S. Most, "The Raf Song" sho...@cs.brandeis.edu
"We don't need a crowded ballroom - everything we want is here
And face to face, we will embrace the perfect year"
-from "Sunset Boulevard"
******************************************************************************
Norman Miller
Ted Frank <th...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>Edward Albee was a visiting professor at Brandeis University. It
>is said that the play "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" is based upon
>his first-hand experiences there with two Brandeis professors (both
>of whom were still at the school decades later; one of whom we shall
>call "Jerry" for the sake of simplicity).
>ted frank
Edward Albee was a Trinity undergraduate. The day after I arrived
in 1969 I was introduced to the man (so my informant later told me)
who figured in "Who's Afraid". Named George for simplicity.
By a curious coincidence, this post originates at Brandeis from
which it is sent to Trinity. (Bashert, Bill Easley?)
Ted Frank
>th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
>>"back in the days when Brandeis had the toughest admission standards
>>in the country, Brandeis was invited to join the Ivy League but decided
>>that it didn't want to emphasize athletics as much as the Ivies did, and
>>turned it down," are the three big urban legends on the Brandeis campus,
>
>This in _NOT_ true. The Ivy League is a football league, and since
>Brandeis doesn't have a football team, it would not be easy to join
>the Ive League. However, that _WAS_ the reason that the football team
>was abolished in (?) either '59 or '69.
Late 1950's. I've heard a variant on the legend that Brandeis refused
to join the Ivies because it didn't want to have to keep its football
team.
--
ted frank |
th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu | Free Nigel Cohen!
the u of c law school |
standard disclaimers | (See 10/5/93 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, p. B1)
Joshua Michael Wolf
Ted Frank <th...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <shorts.7...@berry.cs.brandeis.edu> sho...@cs.brandeis.edu
(Rafi Levavy) writes:
>>th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
>>>"back in the days when Brandeis had the toughest admission standards
>>>in the country, Brandeis was invited to join the Ivy League but decided
>>>that it didn't want to emphasize athletics as much as the Ivies did, and
>>>turned it down," are the three big urban legends on the Brandeis campus,
>>
>>This in _NOT_ true. The Ivy League is a football league, and since
>>Brandeis doesn't have a football team, it would not be easy to join
>>the Ive League. However, that _WAS_ the reason that the football team
>>was abolished in (?) either '59 or '69.
>
>Late 1950's. I've heard a variant on the legend that Brandeis refused
>to join the Ivies because it didn't want to have to keep its football
>team.
None of these are true. The Ivy League did not originate, I believe, as a
football league, since it was around well before intercollegiate football
caught on. Regardless, it's always been the "Ancient Eight", and out of sheer
arrogant snobbery, no one else has been invited.
BTW- toughest admissions standards in the country? C'mon... I mean, Brandeis
is a great school and all, but...
**********************************************************************
* Joshua Wolf (jm...@columbia.edu) *******
* We are young despite the years. We are concerned. *******
* We are hope despite the times. -REM *******
**********************************************************************
Douglas Zimmerman
|> "back in the days when Brandeis had the toughest admission standards
|> in the country, Brandeis was invited to join the Ivy League but decided
|> that it didn't want to emphasize athletics as much as the Ivies did, and
|> turned it down," are the three big urban legends on the Brandeis campus,
|> and I haven't been able to track down the source of any of them.
|>
Johns Hopkins also has this legend about refusing to join the Ivy League.
Refusal to field a competent football team was the specific reason.
Now, if the Ivy League had wanted a lacrosse team, that would have been
a different story...
______________________________________________________________________
Douglas Zimmerman k...@template.com uunet!template!kdz 703-318-1218
Template Software 13100 Worldgate Dr, Ste 340 Herndon, VA 22070-4382
Ted Frank
>In article <1993Oct8.1...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>Ted Frank <th...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>>>"back in the days when Brandeis had the toughest admission standards
>>>>in the country, Brandeis was invited to join the Ivy League but decided
>>>>that it didn't want to emphasize athletics as much as the Ivies did, and
>>>>turned it down," are the three big urban legends on the Brandeis campus,
>>>
>>to join the Ivies because it didn't want to have to keep its football
>>team.
>
>None of these are true. The Ivy League did not originate, I believe, as a
>football league, since it was around well before intercollegiate football
>caught on. Regardless, it's always been the "Ancient Eight", and out of sheer
>arrogant snobbery, no one else has been invited.
>BTW- toughest admissions standards in the country? C'mon... I mean, Brandeis
>is a great school and all, but...
Hey -- I never said the story was *true* -- just that it was folklore.
As for toughest admission standards, recall that Brandeis was a much smaller
school then than now, and further that the Ivies of the day were
discriminating overtly against women and, to a lesser, but still significant
extent, against Jews and minorities. Brandeis was one of the only schools
that had a non-discrimination principle (a principle that, unfortunately,
they've ceased to honor); many of the top women and Jews who go to Ivies
now would have gone to Brandeis thirty years ago. (I'm told that Brandeis
had to have an affirmative action program for men to prevent the male-female
ratio from being completely bollixed.) The average SAT score was something
like 1400.
Spanky
more and more now. Someone there posted that they had heard that Carnegie
Mellon had been invited to join the Ivy League but turned it down, too.
Right before Penn State entered the Big Ten (or 11, whatever), I heard
rumors that we had been invited to join the Ivy League, but decided on
the Big Ten instead. Justification was that at the time, we were
something like 11th in the nation for research monies brought in.
Anybody else out there hear rumors about there school being asked to join
the Ivy League? Anybody with substantiation, or is this definitely some
college.folklore?
--Spanky
---
++--======================================================================--++
| Chris Palma | The preceding was a work of fiction, |
| cpa...@astro.psu.edu | any similarities to persons living or |
| Penn State Dept. of | dead, places, or events is purely |
| Astronomy & Astrophysics | coincidental... |
|+--======================================================================--+|
| Chloe:DS B+(R+W)d Y 1.1 X L+ W C+ I+++ T+++/T+ A E+ H S++ V++ F++ Q P/P- |
++--======================================================================--++
Spanky
most difficult admissions standards (specifically USNA). This is due to
the difficult academic standards, and the strict medical/physical standards.
Rafi Levavy
>>>in the country, Brandeis was invited to join the Ivy League but decided
>>>that it didn't want to emphasize athletics as much as the Ivies did, and
>>>turned it down," are the three big urban legends on the Brandeis campus,
>>
>>This in _NOT_ true. The Ivy League is a football league, and since
>>Brandeis doesn't have a football team, it would not be easy to join
>>the Ive League. However, that _WAS_ the reason that the football team
>>was abolished in (?) either '59 or '69.
>Late 1950's. I've heard a variant on the legend that Brandeis refused
>to join the Ivies because it didn't want to have to keep its football
>team.
However, it is just a legend.
Daniel B Case
>I mentioned something about this in soc.college, and it's been popping up
>more and more now. Someone there posted that they had heard that Carnegie
>Mellon had been invited to join the Ivy League but turned it down, too.
>
>Right before Penn State entered the Big Ten (or 11, whatever), I heard
>rumors that we had been invited to join the Ivy League, but decided on
>the Big Ten instead. Justification was that at the time, we were
>something like 11th in the nation for research monies brought in.
>
>Anybody else out there hear rumors about there school being asked to join
>the Ivy League? Anybody with substantiation, or is this definitely some
>college.folklore?
Syracuse supposedly had applied several times but was rejected because the
school's finances were so tuition-driven. This sounded like a legend to me
at the time, as complaints about SU tuitions are as endemic to the Hill as
heavy snow, and besides, the Ivies are slightly more expensive anyway (they
just have big endowments, that's all).
Daniel Case State University of New York At Buffalo
"Hey, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"-Dr. Strangelove
V140...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
Prodigy: WDNS15D GEnie: DCASE.10
Nehemia Noti
(....deleted...)
: This, along with "the
: science library is named after the guy who invented the Q-tip" and
: "back in the days when Brandeis had the toughest admission standards
: in the country, Brandeis was invited to join the Ivy League but decided
: that it didn't want to emphasize athletics as much as the Ivies did, and
: turned it down," are the three big urban legends on the Brandeis campus,
: and I haven't been able to track down the source of any of them.
Out of breath at the period! Must be related to item below :-).
: --
: ted frank |
: th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu |
: the u of c law school | <---
: standard disclaimers |
Nehemia (Hemi) Noti a.k.a. no...@gdc.com
Tel. 203.758.1811
Jason John Brown
>I mentioned something about this in soc.college, and it's been popping up
>more and more now. Someone there posted that they had heard that Carnegie
>Mellon had been invited to join the Ivy League but turned it down, too.
There is no way Carnegie Mellon would be considered to be amoung the Ivy
League schools. Even though we are consistently ranked in the top 20
schools in the nation, CMU hasn't established itself like the Ivy
Leagues schools.
>Right before Penn State entered the Big Ten (or 11, whatever), I heard
>rumors that we had been invited to join the Ivy League, but decided on
>the Big Ten instead. Justification was that at the time, we were
>something like 11th in the nation for research monies brought in.
Ivy League schools are very selective. Half of my high school got
admitted into Penn State. This one's even more far fetched than the
first.
Alan Light
>>>>"back in the days when Brandeis had the toughest admission standards
>>>>in the country, Brandeis was invited to join the Ivy League but decided
>>>>that it didn't want to emphasize athletics as much as the Ivies did, and
>>>>turned it down," are the three big urban legends on the Brandeis campus,
>>>
>>>This in _NOT_ true. The Ivy League is a football league, and since
>>>Brandeis doesn't have a football team, it would not be easy to join
>>>the Ive League. However, that _WAS_ the reason that the football team
>>>was abolished in (?) either '59 or '69.
>>Late 1950's. I've heard a variant on the legend that Brandeis refused
>>to join the Ivies because it didn't want to have to keep its football
>>team.
>However, it is just a legend.
The Ivy League is an athletic converence. I would think that fielding a
football team, would be one requirement. The major one would be competing
in division I athletics (which Brandeis does not, and probably would not
ever do).
I would think that the main reason that Brandeis did not join the Ivy League
is cost. It would cost millions of dollars to field division I teams in all
the various sports. When I was a student at Brandeis (class of '84) we were
told that Harvard spends more money on its men's fencing team than Brandeis
spends on its ENTIRE athletic budget.
--
/-\ |_ /-\ |\| Alan Light ali...@panix.com
Thomas Galloway
>rumors that we had been invited to join the Ivy League, but decided on
>the Big Ten instead. Justification was that at the time, we were
>something like 11th in the nation for research monies brought in.
To be blunt, if you believe that Penn State was extended an invitation
to join the Ivies in the late 1980s and are a student there, you've pretty
much provided an existence proof as to why such an invitation would not
have been extended.
First off, Penn State has almost nothing in common with the Ivies; it's
a huge state school, not private. Its admission standards are nowhere near
those schools. There's also no indication that Ivies have had any interest
in expansion over the past decade.
And the clincher; there's no reason that the Ivies would think there was
any possibility of PSU accepting such a supposed invitation and have their
football program drop to division I-AA and remove all athletic scholarships.
Well, OK, so for the first few years you'd probably get a NCAA men's
basketball tmnt. berth, but still...
Not to mention that Penn would veto it on the general principle of being
tired enough of being called Penn State without PSU being in the same
conference...
Hopkins and Brandeis at least have reasons to think they might have been
extended an invite. PSU had the same chances of one as UCLA.
Joshua Eli Schachter
Folklore (wa.. by Jason John Brown@andrew.
> League schools. Even though we are consistently ranked in the top 20
> schools in the nation, CMU hasn't established itself like the Ivy
> Leagues schools.
CMU is less than 100 years old...
- joshua
James J. Szinger
jm...@konichiwa.cc.columbia.edu (Joshua Michael Wolf) writes:
>Ted Frank <th...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>In article <shorts.7...@berry.cs.brandeis.edu> sho...@cs.brandeis.edu
>(Rafi Levavy) writes:
>>>th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
>>>>"back in the days when Brandeis had the toughest admission standards
>>>>in the country, Brandeis was invited to join the Ivy League but decided
>>>>that it didn't want to emphasize athletics as much as the Ivies did, and
>>>>turned it down," are the three big urban legends on the Brandeis campus,
>>>
>>>This in _NOT_ true. The Ivy League is a football league, and since
>>>Brandeis doesn't have a football team, it would not be easy to join
>>>the Ive League. However, that _WAS_ the reason that the football team
>>>was abolished in (?) either '59 or '69.
>>
>>Late 1950's. I've heard a variant on the legend that Brandeis refused
>>to join the Ivies because it didn't want to have to keep its football
>>team.
>None of these are true. The Ivy League did not originate, I believe, as a
>football league, since it was around well before intercollegiate football
>caught on. Regardless, it's always been the "Ancient Eight", and out of sheer
>arrogant snobbery, no one else has been invited.
>BTW- toughest admissions standards in the country? C'mon... I mean, Brandeis
>is a great school and all, but...
The Ivy League is a sports league. Intercollegiate football has
been very popular around here for well over 100 years. The 110th
playing of The Game is this November. The Ivy League was only
formed in the late 1940's in order to emphasize academic
excellence by Yale, Princeton, Harvard and Dartmouth. They were
referred to as the Ancient Four, or IV in roman numerals.
Columbia, Cornell, Brown and Penn joined several years later.
The Ivy League is for big sports such as football, basketball and
baseball. Other sports such as hockey are in the ECAC.
Yale football has a multi-leveled approach. At the most basic
level, the team plays 10 games. At the next level, it's the
seven games against the other Ivy team which determine the League
Championship. On the third tier are the games against the other
Big 3 teams to determine the the YPH crown. And ultimately, as
any true Eli would tell you, is a nine game preseason followed by
The Game. A season where the team goes wins 9 games but loses to
hahvahd is considered a disaster.
Jim
--
James J. Szinger j...@fuji.eng.yale.edu
He was born with a gift of laughter The horn, the horn, the lusty horn
and a sense that the world was mad. Is not a thing to laugh to scorn.
Ted Frank
So is the Ivy League.
--
ted frank |
th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu | Free Nigel Cohen!
the u of c law school |
David R. Brill
>In article <29468v$d...@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
>jm...@konichiwa.cc.columbia.edu (Joshua Michael Wolf) writes:
>>None of these are true. The Ivy League did not originate, I believe, as a
>>football league, since it was around well before intercollegiate football
>>caught on. Regardless, it's always been the "Ancient Eight", and out of sheer
>>arrogant snobbery, no one else has been invited.
>>BTW- toughest admissions standards in the country? C'mon... I mean, Brandeis
>>is a great school and all, but...
>The Ivy League is a sports league. Intercollegiate football has
>been very popular around here for well over 100 years. The 110th
>playing of The Game is this November. The Ivy League was only
>formed in the late 1940's in order to emphasize academic
>excellence by Yale, Princeton, Harvard and Dartmouth. They were
>referred to as the Ancient Four, or IV in roman numerals.
>Columbia, Cornell, Brown and Penn joined several years later.
Although the Ivy League (officially called the Ivy "Group") was
formalized as a football conference in the 1950's (with common,
agreed-upon rules on academic standards, athletic scholarships,
etc.) it was around informally for a long time before that, and
everyone knew exactly which 8 schools were in it (not Brandeis).
It seems that every major northeastern school has a story about how
they "almost" made it into the Ivy League. Rutgers students like
to think that they deserve to be in it by virtue of the school's
age (founded 1766), but that they were denied their birthright
when Rutgers became a state university.
Douglas C. Musser
> I mentioned something about this in soc.college, and it's been popping up
> more and more now. Someone there posted that they had heard that Carnegie
> Mellon had been invited to join the Ivy League but turned it down, too.
>
> Right before Penn State entered the Big Ten (or 11, whatever), I heard
> rumors that we had been invited to join the Ivy League, but decided on
> the Big Ten instead. Justification was that at the time, we were
> something like 11th in the nation for research monies brought in.
>
> Anybody else out there hear rumors about there school being asked to join
> the Ivy League? Anybody with substantiation, or is this definitely some
> college.folklore?
>
> --Spanky
Well, Spanky, Just south of you at Juniata College it was rumored that we
were asked to join the Ivy League. After that rumor, for the past two
years there have been major inprovments to the campus, such as refurbishing
the dorms and plans for new academic buildings on campus. The faculty and
Administration personell have been going through major changes. There has
also been a bigger push for private donations. (Private College) They
are calling it the Juniata Transformation. Maybe they are doing this so that
they join the Ivy League. I am unsure. Interesting though...
Doug
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Douglas C. Musser "Doug-Chuck" E-Mail Addr: mus...@juncol.juniata.edu --
-- "Life is a hobby for me. It gives me something to do in my spare time." --
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spanky
>
> To be blunt, if you believe that Penn State was extended an invitation
> to join the Ivies in the late 1980s and are a student there, you've pretty
> much provided an existence proof as to why such an invitation would not
> have been extended.
>
*****FLAME ON******
Excuse me, but if you had read my original post, I said that I had
heard a rumor to this effect here, and others had posted similar rumors
about there schools to soc.college. Since this is alt.FOLKLORE.college
^^^^^^^^
I was asking if anyone had heard similar folklore, or if anyone could
provide substantiation of an invitation their school received. Nowhere
did I say I believed Penn State had been asked to join.
Did you have a bad Penn State experience? Are you a Pitt alum? Are you
a Cincinnati alum that hasn't recovered from us beating you 81-0 two years ago?
Are you from Penn and are sick of people calling you a Penn State alum?
Whatever reason you chose to knock on PSU, next time read my whole post
before you decide to follow-up. And if you're a Michigan alum, next week:
PSU (5-0, 2-0 Big Ten) takes on Michigan (3-2, 1-1 Big Ten)
go Nittany Lions, Pasadena here we come...
--Spanky
---
++--======================================================================--++
| Chris Palma | The preceding was a work of fiction, |
| cpa...@astro.psu.edu | any similarities to persons living or |
| Penn State Dept. of | dead, places, or events is purely |
| Astronomy & Astrophysics | coincidental... |
|+--======================================================================--+|
| Chloe:DS B+(R+W)d Y 1.1 X L+ W C+ I+++ T+++/T+ A E+ H S++ V++ F++ Q P/P- |
| Roux: DS (B+O)t H .6 X++ L- W C+ I+++ T A+++ E+++ H S++ V-- F Q-- P |
++--======================================================================--++
Thomas Galloway
> In article J...@HQ.Ileaf.COM, t...@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Thomas Galloway) writes:
> > To be blunt, if you believe that Penn State was extended an invitation
> > to join the Ivies in the late 1980s and are a student there, you've pretty
First point; the "you" in my statement is generic. Note that I specify
"*if* [you] are a student there"; given that Palma is clearly from PSU from
his address, it wasn't directed at him...unless he did believe those rumors.
As for criticisms of your school, I stated that PSU was a large state
school, that its admission standards are nowhere near the Ivies', and
that joining the Ivy League would require it to give up athletic scholarships
and drop to I-AA. None of that is "criticism"; them's facts. If you choose
to be ashamed of any of them, that's your problem.
> about there schools to soc.college. Since this is alt.FOLKLORE.college
> ^^^^^^^^
> I was asking if anyone had heard similar folklore, or if anyone could
> provide substantiation of an invitation their school received. Nowhere
> did I say I believed Penn State had been asked to join.
And it's worth pointing out why rumors, er, folklore, are certainly false.
> Did you have a bad Penn State experience? Are you a Pitt alum? Are you
>a Cincinnati alum that hasn't recovered from us beating you 81-0 two years
>ago? Are you from Penn and are sick of people calling you a Penn State alum?
No (in fact, I have a cousin teaching there, I believe in your department
or one closely related). No. No (I also don't decide whether I have pride
in a school based on its football team...or whether it's scheduled a complete
patsy to run up the record). Yes and no.
> Whatever reason you chose to knock on PSU, next time read my whole post
> before you decide to follow-up.
I did. Try reading mine.
>And if you're a Michigan alum, next week:
As it happens, I am. Not particularly fond of the football team though, so
I don't really care who wins. Nor do I rag on people based on how good
or bad their football teams are. Btw, all my statements would apply exactly
the same for UM joining the Ivies...except for the one about Penn.
Edward Hartnett
Did you have a bad Penn State experience? Are you a Pitt alum? Are you
a Cincinnati alum that hasn't recovered from us beating you 81-0 two years ago?
Are you from Penn and are sick of people calling you a Penn State alum?
Whatever reason you chose to knock on PSU, next time read my whole post
before you decide to follow-up. And if you're a Michigan alum, next week:
PSU (5-0, 2-0 Big Ten) takes on Michigan (3-2, 1-1 Big Ten)
go Nittany Lions, Pasadena here we come...
--Spanky
One of the most interesting aspects of college fokelore to me is the
idea that 30 or 40 men scrambling around for a token in a mildly
interesting game are actually in some way a reflection of the
thousands of students whose "colors" they wear. I can't understand that
at all, I admit.Of course it is not the fault of the students,
although they are the ones footing the bill. In Colorado, for example,
the highest paid employee if the state at this time is Coach Bill
McCartny at U. of Colorado. He makes more money than the Governor of
the state!
--
Edward Hartnett e...@twod.gsfc.nasa.gov
(301) 286-2396 fax: (301) 286-1754
Timothy Harrison
>In article <29etve$l...@genesis.ait.psu.edu> cpa...@astro.psu.edu writes:
>> In article J...@HQ.Ileaf.COM, t...@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Thomas Galloway) writes:
>> > To be blunt, if you believe that Penn State was extended an invitation
>> > to join the Ivies in the late 1980s and are a student there, you've pretty
>> [inane criticisms of me and my university deleted]
>First point; the "you" in my statement is generic. Note that I specify
>"*if* [you] are a student there"; given that Palma is clearly from PSU from
>his address, it wasn't directed at him...unless he did believe those rumors.
>
>As for criticisms of your school, I stated that PSU was a large state
>school, that its admission standards are nowhere near the Ivies', and
>that joining the Ivy League would require it to give up athletic scholarships
>and drop to I-AA. None of that is "criticism"; them's facts. If you choose
>to be ashamed of any of them, that's your problem.
Actually, Ivy League schools do give athletic scholarships; someone
in my class in high school got 17 k a year to go to Brown.
Tim
Ted Frank
>>As for criticisms of your school, I stated that PSU was a large state
>>school, that its admission standards are nowhere near the Ivies', and
>>that joining the Ivy League would require it to give up athletic scholarships
>>and drop to I-AA. None of that is "criticism"; them's facts. If you choose
>>to be ashamed of any of them, that's your problem.
>
>Actually, Ivy League schools do give athletic scholarships; someone
>in my class in high school got 17 k a year to go to Brown.
While Ivy League schools may give financial aid packages, and even
scholarships, to students who happen to be athletes, they are not allowed
to give "athletic scholarships." If you know of an example to the
contrary, the NCAA would be most interested in finding out, I'm sure.
--
ted frank | U. of Chicago Economics: four-peat & counting
th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu | Chicago Bulls: three-peat & counting
the u of c law school | Chicago White Sox: wait'll next year
standard disclaimers |
Chris
th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
> Actually, Ivy League schools do give athletic scholarships; someone
> >in my class in high school got 17 k a year to go to Brown.
This guy's way off.
I get about the same amount to go to Dartmouth every year, but I don't
play any sport.
If your friend could afford the complete tuition, but was recruited for
athletics he'd still have to pay all of the tuition. Ivy league schools
give scholarships that are need-based in order to try and insure that
everyone can afford to go to an ivy league school.
You can send reply's to Christoph...@dartmouth.edu
"When sun warms your body thru in in the heart of the land
And smiles play on our children's faces
You can see the work of Koluskap's hand."
Red Hawk
Penobscot
from the poem _Penobscot Home Nation_
Chris M. McBride
Edward Hartnett <e...@twod.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>One of the most interesting aspects of college fokelore to me is the
>idea that 30 or 40 men scrambling around for a token in a mildly
>interesting game are actually in some way a reflection of the
>thousands of students whose "colors" they wear. I can't understand that
>at all, I admit.Of course it is not the fault of the students,
>although they are the ones footing the bill.
To begin with the students do NOT foot the bill (a few years ago a few
students felt we were paying our basketball coach to much, and that he
didn't deserve a raise. They failed to understand that this coach was
brought literally Millions of dollars a year to the school, our school
is now able to offer all the full scholarships it can in ALL sports.
But VERY little of this money comes from the students, and NONE comes
from tuition. But this is all totally besides the point.
Why is Pride an interesting aspect of college folklore. Almost any
group has pride for one of its own. It doesn't matter who that person
is or what he does. In this case its a group of people from one group
who happen to be better than a group of people from another group in
football. But this nothing to do with football, or any other sport.
It is pride in the group, pride that your group produced such a thing.
Although the group as a whole really doesn't produce it, but why spoil
peoples fun.
Chris
--
Opinions for this article are coming Real Soon Now...
Ted Frank
>In article <1993Oct13....@midway.uchicago.edu>
>th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
>
>> Actually, Ivy League schools do give athletic scholarships; someone
>> >in my class in high school got 17 k a year to go to Brown.
>
>This guy's way off.
>I get about the same amount to go to Dartmouth every year, but I don't
>play any sport.
I didn't write any of the material in this post. Watch your attributions.
Ted Frank
>In article <EJH.93Oc...@twod.gsfc.nasa.gov>,
>Edward Hartnett <e...@twod.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>One of the most interesting aspects of college fokelore to me is the
>>idea that 30 or 40 men scrambling around for a token in a mildly
>>interesting game are actually in some way a reflection of the
>>thousands of students whose "colors" they wear. I can't understand that
>>at all, I admit.Of course it is not the fault of the students,
>>although they are the ones footing the bill.
>
>To begin with the students do NOT foot the bill (a few years ago a few
>students felt we were paying our basketball coach to much, and that he
>didn't deserve a raise. They failed to understand that this coach was
>brought literally Millions of dollars a year to the school, our school
>is now able to offer all the full scholarships it can in ALL sports.
>But VERY little of this money comes from the students, and NONE comes
>from tuition. But this is all totally besides the point.
That's the same fallacy that makes people think that creating a state
lottery will add money for education because it's earmarked for it.
If money is going for the athletic department, it's not going for
real academics.
The coach has brought millions of dollars of revenue; the question is
whether he begins to cover the multi-million dollar cost of a football
team. Or, for that matter, whether American universities should be
serving as a plantation and scouting system for the billion dollar
industry of professional football and setting up such a poor set of
incentives for lower-class youths to "succeed".
I've tended to have a rule of thumb that the quality of a university
is inversely correlated to the quality of its football team. The
University of Chicago is a good case in point.
Edward Hartnett
To begin with the students do NOT foot the bill (a few years ago a few
students felt we were paying our basketball coach to much, and that he
didn't deserve a raise. They failed to understand that this coach was
brought literally Millions of dollars a year to the school, our school
is now able to offer all the full scholarships it can in ALL sports.
But VERY little of this money comes from the students, and NONE comes
from tuition. But this is all totally besides the point.
This is a common myth. Although the athletic departments of most "big
football" schools do indeed bring in millions, they spend all that and
more on themselves. None of that money makes it back to any other
department. I believe there was an article in the Journal of Higher
Education concerning this very issue within the last year, but I don't
remember the date. But they looked at dozens of schools with big
athletic departments, and the results were the same. They all talk
about the millions they bring in, but virtually none of that goes to
the students, the faculty, or anything connected with the (supposed)
educational mission of the universities.
Why is Pride an interesting aspect of college folklore. Almost any
group has pride for one of its own. It doesn't matter who that person
is or what he does. In this case its a group of people from one group
who happen to be better than a group of people from another group in
football. But this nothing to do with football, or any other sport.
It is pride in the group, pride that your group produced such a thing.
Although the group as a whole really doesn't produce it, but why spoil
peoples fun.
I'm not trying to spoil your fun. Go have fun. Have a lot of fun.
Have all the fun you can have. :-)
Chris
th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
Whoops, sorry. I meant the other guy.
Matt Dittrich
>> Actually, Ivy League schools do give athletic scholarships; someone
>> >in my class in high school got 17 k a year to go to Brown.
>
>This guy's way off.
>I get about the same amount to go to Dartmouth every year, but I don't
>play any sport.
[...]
>You can send reply's to Christoph...@dartmouth.edu
Does anyone else find it disturbing that someone who is getting ~17k a
year to go to Dartmouth doesn't know how to form the plural form of a noun?
--
__
Matt Dittrich | "Well the god I believe in | / `
ditt...@usc.edu | isn't short on cash, Mister" | GO | UBS
| -Bono on televangelists | \__,
michael kelly
e...@twod.gsfc.nasa.gov (Edward Hartnett) writes:
|> One of the most interesting aspects of college fokelore to me is the
|> idea that 30 or 40 men scrambling around for a token in a mildly
|> interesting game are actually in some way a reflection of the
|> thousands of students whose "colors" they wear.
"Football combines the two worst aspects of American society: violence
and committee meetings" -George Will
--
+ Mike Kelly, Notre Dame Department of Physics mke...@doc.helios.nd.edu +
+ +
+ Trudge: The slow, weary, yet determined walk of someone who has no +
+ choice but to continue. -the Book of Weird (describing grad school?) +
Edward Hartnett
Does anyone else find it disturbing that someone who is getting ~17k a
year to go to Dartmouth doesn't know how to form the plural form of a noun?
Nah. What do you expect from an Ivy-Leaguer?
Todd Radel
>In article <294ape$c...@genesis.ait.psu.edu>, cpa...@astro.psu.edu writes...
>>Right before Penn State entered the Big Ten (or 11, whatever), I heard
>>rumors that we had been invited to join the Ivy League, but decided on
>>the Big Ten instead. Justification was that at the time, we were
>>something like 11th in the nation for research monies brought in.
I once heard a rumor that the University of Delaware was invited to join
the Ivy League. We turned them down because we didn't want to be
associated with such pathetic wankers.
--
Todd Radel | "Road to hell paved with unbought stuffed dogs.
Programmer/Analyst | Not my fault." -- Bill Gorton, _The_Sun_Also_Rises_
MBNA America | Fight Political Correctness . . . read alt.tasteless!
Home: 302-366-8739 Work: 302-456-8813 Fax: 302-456-8634
Paul Callahan
>I once heard a rumor that the University of Delaware was invited to join
>the Ivy League. We turned them down because we didn't want to be
>associated with such pathetic wankers.
So, let me get this story straight. Delaware was invited to join the
Ivy League. After some consideration, it was determined that the Ivy League
schools were not up to Delaware's standards of wanking proficiency, and the
offer was not taken up.
Hmmm... well it is an *interesting* rumor, but not the most plausible one
I've heard.
--
"He ought to be dead, don't you know, after such a festive experiment."
============== Paul Callahan ======== call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu ==============
Chris
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that someone who is getting ~17k a
> year to go to Dartmouth doesn't know how to form the plural form of a noun?
> --
> __
> Matt Dittrich | "Well the god I believe in | / `
> ditt...@usc.edu | isn't short on cash, Mister" | GO | UBS
> | -Bono on televangelists | \__,
Does anyone else find it disturbing that someone who goes to USC is so
anal that they can't recognize a TYPO (i used big letters so you could
see better) when they see one?
You can send reply's to Christoph...@dartmouth.edu
"When sun warms your body thru in in the heart of the land
Ted Frank
>> Does anyone else find it disturbing that someone who is getting ~17k a
>> year to go to Dartmouth doesn't know how to form the plural form of a noun?
>
>anal that they can't recognize a TYPO (i used big letters so you could
>see better) when they see one?
>
>
>You can send reply's to Christoph...@dartmouth.edu
If it is a typo, how come this is at least the third time you've done it?
Just out of curiosity, Chris, where exactly is the typo in your post?
And what should be done to correct it? :)
--
ted frank | U. of Chicago Economics: four-peat & counting
th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu | Chicago Bulls: three-peat & counting
the u of c law school | Chicago White Sox: wait'll next year
standard disclaimers | Chicago Cubs: don't ask
john AHN
STOP THIS STRING -
who cares about this?!
Matt_Bruce
: I once heard a rumor that the University of Delaware was invited to join
: the Ivy League. We turned them down because we didn't want to be
: associated with such pathetic wankers.
The hell you say? Dammit, we can wank with the BEST of them!!!
ObFolkore: I heard once Harvard was invited to join the Ivy League.
President Neil Rudenstine thought it over long and hard, but then he
realized: By George, we're ALREADY in the Ivy League...
But if we were in the Ivy League twice, would that mean the football team
could play itself? Heck, put Brown in twice; guarantee a win for them...
--
Matt Bruce (mlb...@husc.harvard.edu) takes sole credit for this message. Not
necessarily the opinions of any entity I'm part of, or vice versa.
Chris
th...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
> If it is a typo, how come this is at least the third time you've done it?
>
> Just out of curiosity, Chris, where exactly is the typo in your post?
> And what should be done to correct it? :)
Actually I was just tryin' to add a little excitement to everyone's
life. It's probably more than the third time as well, but as I'm
always quick to point out. We're not all perfect.
You've done the same think on occasion.
You can send replies to Christoph...@dartmouth.edu
Chris
Christoph...@Dartmouth.edu (Chris) writes:
> Actually I was just tryin' to add a little excitement to everyone's
> life. It's probably more than the third time as well, but as I'm
> always quick to point out. We're not all perfect.
>
> You've done the same think on occasion.
;)
For those of you that didn't quite catch that.
Richard Osterberg
>Does anyone else find it disturbing that someone who is getting ~17k a
>year to go to Dartmouth doesn't know how to form the plural form of a noun?
I had the same thought... but wanted someone else to say it first... :-)
-rick
--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Rick Osterberg oste...@husc.harvard.edu |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Paul Callahan
>STOP THIS STRING -
>who cares about this?!
I don't care about it, myself, but it was very hard to pass up a straight
line like the one delivered in the original posting.
Rick Kleffel
>>
>>Does anyone else find it disturbing that someone who goes to USC is so
>>anal that they can't recognize a TYPO (i used big letters so you could
>>see better) when they see one?
>>
>>You can send reply's to Christoph...@dartmouth.edu
Is this a typo as well, or is it a usage error?
The danger of spelling flames is demonstrated once again.
--
Rick Kleffel*System Administrator*E-Mu Systems, Scotts Valley, Ca*ri...@emu.com*
hosc...@utdallas.edu
Aprrarently, this group has turned into alt.grammar.englshtchr. Let's
give the usage comments a rest and get back to interesting stuff!
Braden Hosch
<hosc...@utdallas.edu>
Gabe Tang
re: (Ted Frank) ....
[stuff about who generates revenue and where it goes deleted]
>I've tended to have a rule of thumb that the quality of a university
>is inversely correlated to the quality of its football team. The
>University of Chicago is a good case in point.
Hey........doesn't that make Columbia one of the better schools too!
They seem to have an almost unblemished record every year!! 8-o ;^)
Chris
ri...@emu.com (Rick Kleffel) writes:
> >>You can send reply's to Christoph...@dartmouth.edu
> ^^^^
> Is this a typo as well, or is it a usage error?
>
> The danger of spelling flames is demonstrated once again.
whoops! I hate it when I do that. ;)
You can send replies to Christoph...@dartmouth.edu
Paul Callahan
>The danger of spelling flames is demonstrated once again.
It's well-known that certain hacker gangs have an initiation ritual in
which the initiate must post an article with a typo. If someone flames
them, they must then break into their account and delete all files.
Todd Radel
>ra...@bach.udel.edu (Todd Radel) writes:
>
>>I once heard a rumor that the University of Delaware was invited to join
>>the Ivy League. We turned them down because we didn't want to be
>>associated with such pathetic wankers.
>
>So, let me get this story straight. Delaware was invited to join the
>Ivy League. After some consideration, it was determined that the Ivy League
>schools were not up to Delaware's standards of wanking proficiency, and the
>offer was not taken up.
>
>Hmmm... well it is an *interesting* rumor, but not the most plausible one
>I've heard.
Actually, I would guess that most of the Ivy Leaguers are actually very
proficient wankers. After all, everyone knows they're all too busy to
have social lives. :)
Oh, hell, you know what I meant. I'm guessing that nobody's ever been
asked to "join" the Ivy League beyond the original members. The rumors
are probably started by morons who are ashamed that they couldn't get
into the Ivies themselves.
Lee J. Silverman
> could play itself? Heck, put Brown in twice; guarantee a win for them...
Hey... I don't know if we won today, but if we did, that'll make TWO
(yes, count 'em, TWO) wins in the past two years. At least we're not
near Columbia's record yet...
--
Lee Silverman, Brown GeoPhysics ScB '94, ScM '95
Email to: Lee_Si...@brown.edu
Phish-Net Archivist: phish-a...@phish.net
"Nonsense - you only say it's impossible because nobody's ever done it."
Lee J. Silverman
And of course, it makes Brown one of the top five schools in the
country. I'd say you've hit on a remarkably accurate rule of thumb! :-)
Lee Rudolph
>In article <29hp20$k...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu> call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:
>>ra...@bach.udel.edu (Todd Radel) writes:
>>
>>>I once heard a rumor that the University of Delaware was invited to join
>>>the Ivy League. We turned them down because we didn't want to be
>>>associated with such pathetic wankers.
>>
>>So, let me get this story straight. Delaware was invited to join the
>>Ivy League. After some consideration, it was determined that the Ivy League
>>schools were not up to Delaware's standards of wanking proficiency, and the
>>offer was not taken up.
>>
>>Hmmm... well it is an *interesting* rumor, but not the most plausible one
>>I've heard.
>Actually, I would guess that most of the Ivy Leaguers are actually very
>proficient wankers. After all, everyone knows they're all too busy to
>have social lives. :)
(etc.)
In one of his essays (which I can't seem to lay a hand on right at the
moment), W. H. Auden, while speculating on the nature of Housman's
sexuality, lists by cutesy allusive (and possibly idiosyncratic)
nicknames a number of styles of gay male sexual activity. One was,
I think, "sewing machine". Another--I remember clearly--was "Princeton
first-year". I've always wondered what he meant. Can anyone help
with this?
Lee Rudolph