NT or 95?

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Joseph I. Valenzuela

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May 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/6/96
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Max Bell (mb...@atheria.europa.com) wrote:

: Complete bullshit. Bill Gates is the spoiled son of a rich lawyer. He was
: never middle class. He dropped out of an Ivy league school (Yale, I think)
: because, in his opinion, they "couldn't teach him anything".

It was Harvard. Gates indeed did belong to a rich family (who was
exceptionally prominent in Seatle society), but not in the ranks of
riches of (say) Tom Watson, jr. Gates showed himself to be an
exceptional math student, scoring a perfect 800 on his math SATs.
He considered for some time being a mathematician, and all other
things being equal this is probably where he might have done
the most good for society.

His skills as a programmer are up for debate.

[source "Hard Drive"]

--
Joseph I. Valenzuela -- tsao...@empirenet.com
http://www.empirenet.com/~tsaotsao
Oppose the ANTI-JOE. Just say no to the VOODOO GLOW SKULLS

Eric S Roman

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May 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/10/96
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>It was Harvard. Gates indeed did belong to a rich family (who was
>exceptionally prominent in Seatle society), but not in the ranks of
>riches of (say) Tom Watson, jr. Gates showed himself to be an
>exceptional math student, scoring a perfect 800 on his math SATs.
>He considered for some time being a mathematician, and all other
>things being equal this is probably where he might have done
>the most good for society.

Yes, can you imagine what Gates would have done for mathematics?
Andrew Wiles publishes a proof of Fermat's last theorem. Two
months later Gates publishes his own proof. The proof fills
six volumes and is so full of holes that a two year old can shoot
it down.

Eric

KORO the Great

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May 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/11/96
to

prof.ir. M.Tels wrote:
>
> On woensdag 8 mei 1996, KORO the Great wrote...
>
> > If you mean DOS, he bought it.
>
> And then licensed it to IBM.

yes, but he didn't write it. technically, it wasn't "his" OS as the
previous writer said...

> > You mean he stole the concept of the GUI from XEROX and Apple.
>
> Only from XEROX.

Depends on your point of veiw... He took a lot of the newer GUI concepts
from Apple.

> And to say he stole it is inacurate; PARC had not
> protected or patented its findings, so Microsoft acted completely within
> the law when it offered the underpayed personnel of PARC jobs in return
> for their knowledge.

Sory... must have been a slip....

> And, by the way, if you really have such moral dilemma's about anything
> connected to or built by Microsoft, I suggest you abandon OS/2 and switch
> back to CP/M.

I don't have a moral dilema... I go for quality... OS/2 is a quality
product. No incarnations of windows can claim the same.

In fact, I don't even use OS/2.

> > > If it weren't for Bill Gates, Unix would have been the heir
> > > apparent operating system for computers.
> >
> > That would be *much* better than the status quo. I've never seen a
> > single M$ product that is worthy of being used (excluding NT, the overly
>
> > rich can use it).
>
> Your opinion.

true... but one can't deny that M$ makes low quality software (again,
excluding NT for that is debatable).

> > > Finally, he parlayed his
> > > earnings into a large staff with vested interest in the business (who
> > > themselves became millionaires.)
> >
> > You mean a vested interest in their pocket books. They are all just
> > businessmen and care nothing about quality products as long as they
> sell.
>
> Can you blame them? If you could make unparallelled amounts of money,
> would you not?

No. If it meant making a killing off of people's stupidity and
gullibility, I wouldn't... You see, I have morals unlike some.

> And your statement about quality is disputable.

debatable, yes, but compare it to the competition.

> > Sory to burst your bubble, but M$ marketing doesn't exactly portray M$
> > products as they are.
>
> This statement is generally true of all advertising.

Yes, and no... IBM is a *very* good example of poor marketing.

> > > all
> > > while avoiding anti-monopoly lawsuits.
> >
> > Heh heh heh... they just happen to have a deal with the Anti-trust
> > commitee..... Same happened with Intel...
>
> Either prove this or shut up about it, you are beginning to irritate me.

Well, if you'd like, you could always disprove it... I heard of this
from a very reputable source... Dispite this, it's still seccond-hand
info and I may always be wrong. If you disagree with me, disprove my
statement.

Hummm de dumm...

> And with proof I don't mean unbased ravings, but a signed document from
> Microsoft or the DoJ outligning the terms of this agreement.

I'm still waiting....

> > > His foresight, his effort, parlayed into his success. Better than
> > > inheriting the wealth, or winning it in a lottery, is earning it the
> > > hard way.
> >
> > Sure, he's a genious, no doubt about that, but he is also a lier and a
> > greedy bastard.
>
> You should be aware of suits for slander with things like this.

heh heh heh... Actually, I'd bet he'd agree with me.

> If you
> have a grievance with Microsoft, have it with Microsoft. But don't act
> like a spoiled 3-year old by getting personal.

When I read that statement, an immage of you popped into my head.

Fact is, that BillG is a marketing and psychological genious. He is also
someone who playes appon people's gullibilities to fatten his pocketbook.
He has repeatedly and *publicly* admitted that he doesn't care about how
he get's rich, only that he does.
--
KORO the Great

Lirpa1

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May 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/12/96
to

In <3194D0...@mbay.net> KORO the Great <ksa...@mbay.net> writes:
>
>prof.ir. M.Tels wrote:
>>
>> On woensdag 8 mei 1996, KORO the Great wrote...
>>
>> > If you mean DOS, he bought it.
>>
>Depends on your point of veiw... He took a lot of the newer GUI
>concepts from Apple.

And Apple in turn stole it from Xerox. BTW, several software makers
were working on GUI's. Even if both Apple and MS did not bring out
GUI's the computing world was moving in that direction anyway.

>> And, by the way, if you really have such moral dilemma's about
>>anything connected to or built by Microsoft, I suggest you abandon
>>OS/2 and switch back to CP/M.
>
>I don't have a moral dilema... I go for quality... OS/2 is a quality
>product. No incarnations of windows can claim the same.
>In fact, I don't even use OS/2.

OS/2 1.3 was written by Microsoft and bankrolled by IBM. OS/2 2.x and
above are upgrades to OS/2 1.3, but written entirely by IBM. Windows
NT 3.1 and above are upgrades to OS/2 1.3 written and financed by
Microsoft. If you are concerned only about quality, then NT gets the
nod over OS/2.

>> > I've never seen a
>> > single M$ product that is worthy of being used (excluding NT, the
>> overly rich can use it).
>>
>> Your opinion.
>
>true... but one can't deny that M$ makes low quality software (again,
>excluding NT for that is debatable).

MS has dominated the market by producing high quality software. Name a
better spreadsheet than Excel, a better office suite than MS Office!
These are market leaders and they deserve to be. MS also produces
quality software development tools such as Visual Basic, Visual C++.
They also produce quality consumer products such as the Encarta
encyclopedia and Bookshelf reference CD, both of which are highly
praised products.

>> > > Finally, he parlayed his
>> > > earnings into a large staff with vested interest in the business
(who
>> > > themselves became millionaires.)
>> >
>> > You mean a vested interest in their pocket books. They are all
just
>> > businessmen and care nothing about quality products as long as
they
>> sell.
>>
>> Can you blame them? If you could make unparallelled amounts of
money,
>> would you not?
>
>No. If it meant making a killing off of people's stupidity and
>gullibility, I wouldn't... You see, I have morals unlike some.

Microsoft should be the model on how employees should be treated. When
was the last time they lay off people to cut costs. Many American
companies from AT&T to IBM are "downsizing" amid reports of record
profits, in order to jack up profits (and executive bonuses) even
further.

>> And your statement about quality is disputable.
>
>debatable, yes, but compare it to the competition.
>
>> > Sory to burst your bubble, but M$ marketing doesn't exactly
portray M$
>> > products as they are.
>>
>> This statement is generally true of all advertising.
>
>Yes, and no... IBM is a *very* good example of poor marketing.

IBM also produces crappy software. OS/2 2.0 was an example. Even OS/2
worshippers admit that OS/2 2.0 stunk.

>> > > all
>> > > while avoiding anti-monopoly lawsuits.
>> >
>> > Heh heh heh... they just happen to have a deal with the Anti-trust
>> > commitee..... Same happened with Intel...
>>
>> Either prove this or shut up about it, you are beginning to irritate
me.
>
>Well, if you'd like, you could always disprove it... I heard of this
>from a very reputable source... Dispite this, it's still seccond-hand
>info and I may always be wrong. If you disagree with me, disprove my
>statement.
>
>Hummm de dumm...

The Justice Department have been conducting a witch hunt/fishing
expedition on MS and yet they have come up with nothing worth
prosecuting so far. What a colossal waste of taxpayer money!

>> If you have a grievance with Microsoft, have it with Microsoft. But
>> don't act like a spoiled 3-year old by getting personal.
>
>When I read that statement, an immage of you popped into my head.
>Fact is, that BillG is a marketing and psychological genious. He is
>also someone who playes appon people's gullibilities to fatten his
>pocketbook. He has repeatedly and *publicly* admitted that he doesn't
>care about how he get's rich, only that he does.

If he gets rich, he deserves it. He has risen to the top through
competition. He has given the world quality software products at a
reasonable price and consumers have bought them and bought them
repeatedly. He has popularized software that was once affordable only
to the professional and the rich: e.g. scalable fonts, disk compression
software, and GUI computing. He has given away millions to educational
institutions. He has shown the world how quality products can be
produced by treating employees well. Above all, he is a great guy,
because he is willing to endure all the venom that his competitors are
spewing against him. History will be kinder to him than the press and
the many uninformed sympathizers of his competitors.


Dave Tholen

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May 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/13/96
to

Lirpa1 writes:

> OS/2 1.3 was written by Microsoft and bankrolled by IBM.

Incorrect; Microsoft backed away from OS/2 after version 1.2.

> OS/2 2.x and above are upgrades to OS/2 1.3, but written entirely by IBM.

Incorrect; OS/2 2.x and higher still use components that were written by
Microsoft, such as HPFS.

> Windows NT 3.1 and above are upgrades to OS/2 1.3 written and financed by
> Microsoft.

Evidence, please. NT was at one time called "portable OS/2", and there
have been many reports that IBM was partly funding that effort.

> If you are concerned only about quality, then NT gets the nod over OS/2.

Quality is in the eye of the beholder.

> MS has dominated the market by producing high quality software.

Others maintain that it is their marketing that does the trick.

> Name a better spreadsheet than Excel,

"Better" is in the eye of the beholder.

> a better office suite than MS Office!

"Better" is in the eye of the beholder.

> These are market leaders and they deserve to be.

How about Bob? Access? Money?

> MS also produces
> quality software development tools such as Visual Basic, Visual C++.

Quality is in the eye of the beholder.

> They also produce quality consumer products such as the Encarta
> encyclopedia and Bookshelf reference CD, both of which are highly
> praised products.

Quality is in the eye of the beholder.

> Microsoft should be the model on how employees should be treated.

Oh? And how does Microsoft treat its employees?

> When was the last time they lay off people to cut costs.

Until very recently, a job with IBM meant security. Is that a model to
be followed?

> Many American companies from AT&T to IBM are "downsizing"

Possibly because they had grown too big?

> amid reports of record profits,

When IBM started downsizing, it was after reporting their first loss in a
very long time (first time in company history?).

> in order to jack up profits (and executive bonuses) even further.

Evidence, please.

> The Justice Department have been conducting a witch hunt/fishing
> expedition on MS and yet they have come up with nothing worth
> prosecuting so far. What a colossal waste of taxpayer money!

Nothing worth prosecuting? You find all of Microsoft's practices to be
fair?

Bush Gardener

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May 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/13/96
to


I found a really good Bill Gates/Microsoft page on the web today.
Rarely do I waste much time surfing. We are going to have to
start giving out awards to people on the Web. You have to check
this web out.

http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~pribushg/jokes.html - Microsoft hack
humor page


Truly an award winning page... Much of this has been posted on in
this group but just going through it all....


Larry Doering

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May 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/13/96
to

In article <4n5hjj$p...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,

Lirpa1 <lir...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>MS has dominated the market by producing high quality software. Name a
>better spreadsheet than Excel, a better office suite than MS Office!
>These are market leaders and they deserve to be. MS also produces
>quality software development tools such as Visual Basic, Visual C++.
>They also produce quality consumer products such as the Encarta
>encyclopedia and Bookshelf reference CD, both of which are highly
>praised products.

Yes! Truly those who denounce the quality of Microsoft software
are tools of bourgeois imperialist reaction! Soon, in the light
of the coming Red Dawn, all will see the deserving market leadership
of MS Office and Excel! All glory to the Dear Leader, Chairman Gates!

>Microsoft should be the model on how employees should be treated. When
>was the last time they lay off people to cut costs. Many American
>companies from AT&T to IBM are "downsizing" amid reports of record
>profits, in order to jack up profits (and executive bonuses) even
>further.

Chairman Gates has said, "So long as there are mediocre programmers
in the world, they shall have jobs in Redmond." Vigorously denounce
those who subscribe to the false hacker ethic and who unreasonably
demand functional software! Crush the fascist insects who seek
to create efficient programs that run properly!

>If he gets rich, he deserves it. He has risen to the top through
>competition. He has given the world quality software products at a
>reasonable price and consumers have bought them and bought them
>repeatedly. He has popularized software that was once affordable only
>to the professional and the rich: e.g. scalable fonts, disk compression
>software, and GUI computing. He has given away millions to educational
>institutions. He has shown the world how quality products can be
>produced by treating employees well. Above all, he is a great guy,
>because he is willing to endure all the venom that his competitors are
>spewing against him. History will be kinder to him than the press and
>the many uninformed sympathizers of his competitors.

Absolutely! Without the wise leadership of the all-knowing Chairman
Gates, the proletarian masses would still be denied the obvious
benefits of software like the Registration Wizard! Once, only the
rich and the intelligentsia were able to run user interfaces centered
around crudely animated cartoon parrots and dogs. No longer! With his
masterstroke, Microsoft Bob, the Dear Leader has granted these same
benefits to the proletarian masses!

Hail the Dear Leader! Proletarian heroes, continue the revolutionary
struggle! We will crush the cynical running dogs of Unix and the
Open Software Foundation under our feet as we march towards inevitable
socialist victory! Glory to Windows and NT! Glory to Chairman Gates!

ljd

Joseph I. Valenzuela

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May 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/14/96
to

Larry Doering (doe...@xrayspex.nlm.nih.gov) wrote:
: In article <4n5hjj$p...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
: Lirpa1 <lir...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

: Yes! Truly those who denounce the quality of Microsoft software


: are tools of bourgeois imperialist reaction! Soon, in the light
: of the coming Red Dawn, all will see the deserving market leadership
: of MS Office and Excel! All glory to the Dear Leader, Chairman Gates!

The irony being? Bill Gates denounces all his enemies as
leftists and communists (not suprising since he grew up in such
a tight reactionary society).

I remember his eloquent denunciation of proposed Clinton trade
sanctions against Japan: "That's, like, socialism". Such
articulation we have rarely heard from an industry giant.

--
Joseph I. Valenzuela -- tsao...@empirenet.com

Check out my home page -- http://www.empirenet.com/~tsaotsao/
"One day an egg, a snake, a centipede, an ant, and a piece of
dung set out on a head-hunting expedition..." - Roland Dixon

Joe Ragosta

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May 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/16/96
to

In article <4n5hjj$p...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
lir...@ix.netcom.com(Lirpa1) wrote:

> And Apple in turn stole it from Xerox. BTW, several software makers
> were working on GUI's. Even if both Apple and MS did not bring out
> GUI's the computing world was moving in that direction anyway.

Idiot. Apple _paid_ for the rights to use Xerox technology. Apparently you
can't tell the difference between paying for something and stealing it. I
guess we'll call the police and tell them you stole your car since you
don't think it matters that you paid for it (at least I assume that you
did).

>
> Microsoft should be the model on how employees should be treated. When
> was the last time they lay off people to cut costs. Many American
> companies from AT&T to IBM are "downsizing" amid reports of record
> profits, in order to jack up profits (and executive bonuses) even
> further.

I guess Joan Brewer would disagree with you. ;-)

Microsoft is no paragon of virtue in the employment area, even using your
definition. They have had layoffs, too. I would argue, though, that
layoffs are sometimes _good_ for employees. If you have 100 employees and
have a choice of laying off 10 and staying in business or going out of
business and putting 100 out of work, then the layoff is probably the
right thing.

--
Regards, Joe Ragosta

Copyright Joseph M. Ragosta, 1996. Non-exclusive, royalty free
license to distribute this post granted to any service provider
except Microsoft. By posting this, Microsoft agrees to pay $1,000 per
posting.


Edward N. Leger

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May 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/19/96
to

Larry Doering wrote:
>
> In article <4n5hjj$p...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
> Lirpa1 <lir...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> >MS has dominated the market by producing high quality software. Name a
> >better spreadsheet than Excel, a better office suite than MS Office!
> >These are market leaders and they deserve to be. MS also produces
> >quality software development tools such as Visual Basic, Visual C++.
> >They also produce quality consumer products such as the Encarta
> >encyclopedia and Bookshelf reference CD, both of which are highly
> >praised products.
>
> Yes! Truly those who denounce the quality of Microsoft software
> are tools of bourgeois imperialist reaction! Soon, in the light
> of the coming Red Dawn, all will see the deserving market leadership
> of MS Office and Excel! All glory to the Dear Leader, Chairman Gates!
>
> >Microsoft should be the model on how employees should be treated. When
> >was the last time they lay off people to cut costs. Many American
> >companies from AT&T to IBM are "downsizing" amid reports of record
> >profits, in order to jack up profits (and executive bonuses) even
> >further.
>
> Chairman Gates has said, "So long as there are mediocre programmers
> in the world, they shall have jobs in Redmond." Vigorously denounce
> those who subscribe to the false hacker ethic and who unreasonably
> demand functional software! Crush the fascist insects who seek
> to create efficient programs that run properly!
>
> >If he gets rich, he deserves it. He has risen to the top through
> >competition. He has given the world quality software products at a
> >reasonable price and consumers have bought them and bought them
> >repeatedly. He has popularized software that was once affordable only
> >to the professional and the rich: e.g. scalable fonts, disk compression
> >software, and GUI computing. He has given away millions to educational
> >institutions. He has shown the world how quality products can be
> >produced by treating employees well. Above all, he is a great guy,
> >because he is willing to endure all the venom that his competitors are
> >spewing against him. History will be kinder to him than the press and
> >the many uninformed sympathizers of his competitors.
>
> Absolutely! Without the wise leadership of the all-knowing Chairman
> Gates, the proletarian masses would still be denied the obvious
> benefits of software like the Registration Wizard! Once, only the
> rich and the intelligentsia were able to run user interfaces centered
> around crudely animated cartoon parrots and dogs. No longer! With his
> masterstroke, Microsoft Bob, the Dear Leader has granted these same
> benefits to the proletarian masses!
>
> Hail the Dear Leader! Proletarian heroes, continue the revolutionary
> struggle! We will crush the cynical running dogs of Unix and the
> Open Software Foundation under our feet as we march towards inevitable
> socialist victory! Glory to Windows and NT! Glory to Chairman Gates!
>
> ljd

What a joke you are. To portray the epitome of capialism as a communist
only shows that you have no clue to anything that you say. You must be a
tired frustrated man. Bill Gates had a vision and has taken it far and
you are jealous of him. He started with nothing and has created a
company that is respected the world over. You would probably attack
David Packard and Bob Hewlitt because they had a vision and built a
great company out of it. You are probably jealous of Thomas Watson Sr.
who started that little company IBM. What a pathetic joke you are. get a
life worm.

Edward N. Leger

Larry Doering

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May 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/20/96
to

In article <319FA0...@net-connect.net>,
Edward N. Leger <ele...@net-connect.net> wrote:
:Larry Doering wrote:
:>
:> Yes! Truly those who denounce the quality of Microsoft software

:> are tools of bourgeois imperialist reaction! Soon, in the light
:> of the coming Red Dawn, all will see the deserving market leadership
:> of MS Office and Excel! All glory to the Dear Leader, Chairman Gates!
:>
:> [...]
:>
:> Hail the Dear Leader! Proletarian heroes, continue the revolutionary

:> struggle! We will crush the cynical running dogs of Unix and the
:> Open Software Foundation under our feet as we march towards inevitable
:> socialist victory! Glory to Windows and NT! Glory to Chairman Gates!
:
:What a joke you are. To portray the epitome of capialism as a communist
:only shows that you have no clue to anything that you say. You must be a
:tired frustrated man. Bill Gates had a vision and has taken it far and
:you are jealous of him. He started with nothing and has created a
:company that is respected the world over. You would probably attack
:David Packard and Bob Hewlitt because they had a vision and built a
:great company out of it. You are probably jealous of Thomas Watson Sr.
:who started that little company IBM. What a pathetic joke you are. get a
:life worm.

Actually, Edward, I was portraying the Dear Leader, Chairman Gates,
as a totalitarian dictator in the mold of Josef Stalin or Mao Zedong.
Clearly, as a besotted Bill Gates fanboy, you disagree. Fine - if
you like using mediocre software that behaves like it was programmed by
a bunch of drunk monkeys, more power to you.

By the way, I think you need to adjust your insults to conform more
to the party line. "Worm" isn't bad, but "pathetic joke" and "jealous"
should probably be replaced with "despicable yellow running dog of
reactionary world counter-revolution" if you want to avoid being
shipped off to WinReeducation Camp.

ljd

Christopher Robato

unread,
May 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/21/96
to

In message <319FA0...@net-connect.net> - "Edward N. Leger"
<ele...@net-connect.net>Sun, 19 May 1996 17:27:52 -0500 writes:
:>
:>Larry Doering wrote:
:>> Absolutely! Without the wise leadership of the all-knowing Chairman

:>> Gates, the proletarian masses would still be denied the obvious
:>> benefits of software like the Registration Wizard! Once, only the
:>> rich and the intelligentsia were able to run user interfaces centered
:>> around crudely animated cartoon parrots and dogs. No longer! With his
:>> masterstroke, Microsoft Bob, the Dear Leader has granted these same
:>> benefits to the proletarian masses!
:>>
:>> Hail the Dear Leader! Proletarian heroes, continue the revolutionary
:>> struggle! We will crush the cynical running dogs of Unix and the
:>> Open Software Foundation under our feet as we march towards inevitable
:>> socialist victory! Glory to Windows and NT! Glory to Chairman Gates!
:>>
:>> ljd
:>
:>What a joke you are. To portray the epitome of capialism as a communist
:>only shows that you have no clue to anything that you say. You must be a
:>tired frustrated man. Bill Gates had a vision and has taken it far and
:>you are jealous of him. He started with nothing and has created a
:>company that is respected the world over. You would probably attack
:>David Packard and Bob Hewlitt because they had a vision and built a
:>great company out of it. You are probably jealous of Thomas Watson Sr.
:>who started that little company IBM. What a pathetic joke you are. get a
:>life worm.
:>
:>Edward N. Leger


By the way, Lenin, Mao Zhe-Dong, and Joseph Stalin all started
with nothing and all of them have a vision.

So what's your point, Leger?

And please, don't give me another "I am the source of truth"
response.

Rgds,

Chris


>>>>** Sailor Moon Joins Team OS/2 **<<<<
FUD covers the city, turning millions into lemmings. Serena and
friends raise their shiny Warp CD ROMs. "OS/2 Warp Power, Make
Up!"
Serena turns into Sailor Moon, and they into Sailor Mars, Sailor
Mercury,
Sailor Jupiter and Sailor Venus. The Sailor Team OS/2 girls
crash into the Red Moon palace. Hordes of lemmings rose to fight
them.
With moonlight beaming behind their silhouettes, Sailor Moon
threatens
the evil Queen Beryl Gates and the diabolical Windowsverse forces,
"In the name of I-B-Moon, I shall right FUD and that means you!"
[[[ cro...@kuentos.guam.net ]]]


Old-Fashioned Staffordshire Plate...

unread,
May 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/21/96
to

In article <319FA0...@net-connect.net>, "Edward N. Leger" <ele...@net-connect.net> writes...

>What a joke you are. To portray the epitome of capialism as a communist
>only shows that you have no clue to anything that you say. You must be a
>tired frustrated man.

The 'joke' just went whizzing over your ten gallon hat, do we need to spell it
out for you?


>Bill Gates had a vision and has taken it far and
>you are jealous of him. He started with nothing and has created a
>company that is respected the world over.

OH, so you're NEW around here aren't you? Much as with the 'budweiser'
argument, we don't much fall for the 'jealousy' argument here, having refuted
it the last 35 times already, see? And it grows exceedingly tiresome to rehash
the same dumbshit argument with every newbie who discovers the internet and
alt.fan.bill-gates. Now GET thee to the archives, until thee hast foundeth a
clue!

>who started that little company IBM. What a pathetic joke you are. get a
>life worm.
>Edward N. Leger

Cry me a river.


Tom O'Toole - ecf_...@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu - JHUVMS system programmer
**WAKE UP folks! Boycott Net$cape and Micro$oft greed driven proprietary
"enhancements"! BOYCOTT micro$oft network "msn.com", micro$oft money and other
attempts by the micro$oft monopoly to control electronic banking and commerce!**

Kevin Gee

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May 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/22/96
to


You may not like Bill, but there'd be no world-wide computer craze
if DOS hadn't become so suddenly popular. It's what he has done
since that time that is despicable, not what he did initially.


--
Kevin R. Gee
ge...@caldera.com

Jeff Dege

unread,
May 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/23/96
to

On Wed, 22 May 1996 19:42:22 -0600, Kevin Gee (ge...@caldera.com) wrote:
: You may not like Bill, but there'd be no world-wide computer craze

: if DOS hadn't become so suddenly popular. It's what he has done
: since that time that is despicable, not what he did initially.

MsDOS had very little to do with the initial excitement over PCs, or
even with the initial excitement over the IBM PC. There were, if
you remember, _three_ OSes available for the IBM PC at initial
release. MsDOS's sole claim to fame was that it was the cheapest.
If Billy hadn't stepped up with his pirated CPM clone the IBM PC
would have made just as much a splash.

--
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not "Eureka!" ("I found it!") but rather "hmm....that's
funny..." -- Isaac Asimov


Lirpa1

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May 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/23/96
to

In <4o0rir$f...@blackice.winternet.com> jd...@winternet.com (Jeff Dege)
writes:
>
>On Wed, 22 May 1996 19:42:22 -0600, Kevin Gee (ge...@caldera.com)
wrote:
>: You may not like Bill, but there'd be no world-wide computer craze
>: if DOS hadn't become so suddenly popular. It's what he has done
>: since that time that is despicable, not what he did initially.
>
>MsDOS had very little to do with the initial excitement over PCs, or
>even with the initial excitement over the IBM PC. There were, if
>you remember, _three_ OSes available for the IBM PC at initial
>release. MsDOS's sole claim to fame was that it was the cheapest.
>If Billy hadn't stepped up with his pirated CPM clone the IBM PC
>would have made just as much a splash.

Actually, it was a killer app (Lotus 1-2-3 for DOS) which made DOS the
winning OS on the IBM PC. Businesses bought PC's to run Lotus 1-2-3 in
droves and the rest was history.

KORO the Great

unread,
May 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/23/96
to

Kevin Gee wrote:
>
> You may not like Bill, but there'd be no world-wide computer craze
> if DOS hadn't become so suddenly popular. It's what he has done
> since that time that is despicable, not what he did initially.

The only good thing comming from an increased computer using population
is lower prices. Everything else is just a burden to people who've been
using computers for a long time. I don't mean to insult the newbies,
because I was one once too, but they should learn about something before
they jump head-long into it. And people wonder why Packard Bell and M$
are popular.
--
KORO the Great

Bruce Ediger

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May 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/23/96
to

gr...@microsoft.com (Greg Cox) wrote:
:As far as I know there was no "reverse engineering" from CP/M
:code nor would there be any value in doing so considering DOS
:was written for a different CPU. Unless you're making the
:definition of pirating so loose that you're saying Linux must be
:"pirated" from Unix. Even then, there is less of a relationship
:between DOS and CP/M as there is between Linux and UNIX.

Many have thought otherwise, including the late Gary Killdall, owner of
Digital Research, which developed CP/M.

From Robert X. Cringely's "Accidental Empires":

"Gary Killdall still thinks a lot of the QDOS code was stolen straight
from his CP/M. 'Ask Bill why function code 6 [in QDOS and still in
MS-DOS, more than ten years later] ends in a dollar sign. No one in
the world knows that but me.'"

This is in Chapter 7, 'ALL IBM STORIES ARE TRUE' in my hardback copy.

--
This is a Monument to my Anguished Soul, the Death
of Hope, and the inevitable March toward Oblivion.

Chris Gleason

unread,
May 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/23/96
to

Hello, everyone. I'm glad to meet all of you. Please allow me to tear the
following piece of tripe into shreds....

KORO the Great <ksa...@easyaccess.com> wrote in article
<31A4A4...@easyaccess.com>...

> The only good thing comming from an increased computer using population
> is lower prices. Everything else is just a burden to people who've been

> using computers for a long time.

My, aren't we the elitist? I take it by your argument that Henry Ford
must have been the 2.5th anti-christ for making the automobile accessible
to anyone making a decent salary. You know, the "Joe Sixpacks" out there
who bought Model Ts must have been a terrible burden to those who were
already driving Pierce-Arrows and Deusenbergs.

Eastman and Kodak must have been terrible human beings for allowing
cameras to fall into the hands of commoners.

Why is it that whenever a new technology falls into common use, the
biggest uproar comes from those who stand to profit the most from it? You,
as an advanced user, have the opportunity to INSTRUCT these people... for
a FEE! Teach a class! Write a book! Create a 1-900 tech support line! This
is still technically a free market... utilize it!

If that isn't a benefit for you instead of a burden, what in the world
would be?

Or perhaps doing that would take away your only reason for existence....

> I don't mean to insult the newbies,
> because I was one once too, but they should learn about something before

> they jump head-long into it. And people wonder why Packard Bell and M$
> are popular.

Gee, with that argument, I'm amazed you forgot to include the Macintosh.
It must be terrible living in your world... living in constant fear that
someone who isn't as smart as you are may be able to accomplish the same
things via inexpensive, powerful software you didn't have back in your
heyday 10 years ago.

I pity you.

Regards,


Chris Gleason

Greg Cox

unread,
May 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/24/96
to

In article <4o0rir$f...@blackice.winternet.com>, jd...@winternet.com says...

>
>On Wed, 22 May 1996 19:42:22 -0600, Kevin Gee (ge...@caldera.com) wrote:
>: You may not like Bill, but there'd be no world-wide computer craze
>: if DOS hadn't become so suddenly popular. It's what he has done
>: since that time that is despicable, not what he did initially.
>
>MsDOS had very little to do with the initial excitement over PCs, or
>even with the initial excitement over the IBM PC. There were, if
>you remember, _three_ OSes available for the IBM PC at initial
>release. MsDOS's sole claim to fame was that it was the cheapest.
>If Billy hadn't stepped up with his pirated CPM clone the IBM PC
>would have made just as much a splash.
>

And just how do you justify using the word "pirated"? The command
list and program interface may have been loosely based on CP/M which
I believe was loosely based on DEC's TOPS-10 OS. DOS was
written from scratch without access to Digital Research's source.


As far as I know there was no "reverse engineering" from CP/M
code nor would there be any value in doing so considering DOS
was written for a different CPU. Unless you're making the
definition of pirating so loose that you're saying Linux must be
"pirated" from Unix. Even then, there is less of a relationship
between DOS and CP/M as there is between Linux and UNIX.

BTW: I believe DOS was the only OS available when the PC first shipped.
If I remember correctly it was 4-8 months before CP/M-86 and the UCSD
P-system shipped from their manufacturers.

I hope this helps you understand "the way it was"...

gr...@microsoft.com

>--
>The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
>discoveries, is not "Eureka!" ("I found it!") but rather "hmm....that's
>funny..." -- Isaac Asimov
>

--
The opinions expressed in this message are my own personal views
and do not reflect the official views of Microsoft Corporation.


Jeff Dege

unread,
May 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/24/96
to

On 24 May 1996 02:33:56 GMT, Greg Cox (gr...@microsoft.com) wrote:
:
: And just how do you justify using the word "pirated"? The command

: list and program interface may have been loosely based on CP/M which
: I believe was loosely based on DEC's TOPS-10 OS. DOS was
: written from scratch without access to Digital Research's source.
: As far as I know there was no "reverse engineering" from CP/M
: code nor would there be any value in doing so considering DOS
: was written for a different CPU. Unless you're making the
: definition of pirating so loose that you're saying Linux must be
: "pirated" from Unix. Even then, there is less of a relationship
: between DOS and CP/M as there is between Linux and UNIX.

I mean pirated in that Bill obtained a source code license to an
8086 CPM clone, took that source, hacked it a bit to work on the PC,
and turned around and sold it to IBM, which was a gross violation of
the licensing agreement, at least according to the original authors.
Of course, Microsoft eventually won the resultant lawsuit.

This is all ancient history.

--
the Windows API has done more to retard skill development
than anything since COBOL maintenance.
--Larry O'Brien


KORO the Great

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May 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/24/96
to

Chris Gleason wrote:
>
> Hello, everyone. I'm glad to meet all of you. Please allow me to tear the
> following piece of tripe into shreds....

Feel free.

> KORO the Great <ksa...@easyaccess.com> wrote in article
> <31A4A4...@easyaccess.com>...
>
> > The only good thing comming from an increased computer using population
> > is lower prices. Everything else is just a burden to people who've been
>
> > using computers for a long time.
>
> My, aren't we the elitist? I take it by your argument that Henry Ford
> must have been the 2.5th anti-christ for making the automobile accessible
> to anyone making a decent salary. You know, the "Joe Sixpacks" out there
> who bought Model Ts must have been a terrible burden to those who were
> already driving Pierce-Arrows and Deusenbergs.

Cars and computers don't make good analogies. You have to learn how to
drive before you hop into your car. Computers are free.

> Eastman and Kodak must have been terrible human beings for allowing
> cameras to fall into the hands of commoners.

Cameras don't have a way to annoy people world-wide.... Well, except for
slide shows of people's vacations, but that's different.

> Why is it that whenever a new technology falls into common use, the
> biggest uproar comes from those who stand to profit the most from it? You,
> as an advanced user, have the opportunity to INSTRUCT these people... for
> a FEE! Teach a class! Write a book! Create a 1-900 tech support line! This
> is still technically a free market... utilize it!

Why? I believe strongly in the hacker ethic and support the freedom of
information. I'll help a newbie learn for free! The only problem comes
when they don't want to learn.

> > I don't mean to insult the newbies,
> > because I was one once too, but they should learn about something before
>
> > they jump head-long into it. And people wonder why Packard Bell and M$
> > are popular.
>
> Gee, with that argument, I'm amazed you forgot to include the Macintosh.
> It must be terrible living in your world... living in constant fear that
> someone who isn't as smart as you are may be able to accomplish the same
> things via inexpensive, powerful software you didn't have back in your
> heyday 10 years ago.

I use that software when it's usefull to me. The problem is that most
newcommers don't concider the alternatives to products because they have
little experience. They just go for the first thing they see that looks
good. Then they say, "Wow, this is cool! I should get more of this
software." And of course, they can only speak from thier own experience,
so it's not a comparison.

> I pity you.

Feel free to.
--
KORO the Great

Greg Cox

unread,
May 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/24/96
to

In article <4o3cip$i...@blackice.winternet.com>, jd...@winternet.com says...

>
>On 24 May 1996 02:33:56 GMT, Greg Cox (gr...@microsoft.com) wrote:
>:
>: And just how do you justify using the word "pirated"? The command
>: list and program interface may have been loosely based on CP/M which
>: I believe was loosely based on DEC's TOPS-10 OS. DOS was
>: written from scratch without access to Digital Research's source.
>: As far as I know there was no "reverse engineering" from CP/M
>: code nor would there be any value in doing so considering DOS
>: was written for a different CPU. Unless you're making the
>: definition of pirating so loose that you're saying Linux must be
>: "pirated" from Unix. Even then, there is less of a relationship
>: between DOS and CP/M as there is between Linux and UNIX.
>
> I mean pirated in that Bill obtained a source code license to an
>8086 CPM clone, took that source, hacked it a bit to work on the PC,
>and turned around and sold it to IBM, which was a gross violation of
>the licensing agreement, at least according to the original authors.
>Of course, Microsoft eventually won the resultant lawsuit.

Think about it. Does it really make sense that Microsoft would buy
software with a source license and agree not to base a product on
those sources. Come on... Also, if it was such a "gross violation
of the licensing agreement" how did Microsoft win? And don't tell
me it was some vast array of lawyers or some such. Remember,
Microsoft was a small shop (< 100 employees) at that time.

BTW: the sources were heavily modified to meet IBM's requirements
for ship (I'm talking months of work by several developers).

gr...@microsoft.com


>
>This is all ancient history.
>
>--
>the Windows API has done more to retard skill development
>than anything since COBOL maintenance.
> --Larry O'Brien
>

--

A Shelton

unread,
May 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/27/96
to

Kevin Gee <ge...@caldera.com> writes:

>You may not like Bill, but there'd be no world-wide computer craze
>if DOS hadn't become so suddenly popular. It's what he has done
>since that time that is despicable, not what he did initially.

Learn your history.... I think you mean IBM...

Unless you mean that buying out a cheap knock-off of an existing
system, putzing it full of ~300 bugs and selling it to IBM was
the vital part in the PC's development.

--
Linux, because raw power can be....addictive.
Andrew Shelton s940...@yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au
GCS(2.1)-d+H+sw+v-C++UL+>L+++E-N++WV--R++tv-b+D++e+fr*y?

Satan

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May 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/27/96
to

Lirpa1 wrote:
>
> In <4o0rir$f...@blackice.winternet.com> jd...@winternet.com (Jeff Dege)
> writes:
> >
> >On Wed, 22 May 1996 19:42:22 -0600, Kevin Gee (ge...@caldera.com)
> wrote:
> >: You may not like Bill, but there'd be no world-wide computer craze

> >: if DOS hadn't become so suddenly popular. It's what he has done
> >: since that time that is despicable, not what he did initially.
> >
> >MsDOS had very little to do with the initial excitement over PCs, or
> >even with the initial excitement over the IBM PC. There were, if
> >you remember, _three_ OSes available for the IBM PC at initial
> >release. MsDOS's sole claim to fame was that it was the cheapest.
> >If Billy hadn't stepped up with his pirated CPM clone the IBM PC
> >would have made just as much a splash.
>
> Actually, it was a killer app (Lotus 1-2-3 for DOS) which made DOS the
> winning OS on the IBM PC. Businesses bought PC's to run Lotus 1-2-3 in
> droves and the rest was history.


If, for some off reason, you must use Windows, go with NT, it is much
more stable.

Anthony Barlow

unread,
May 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/29/96
to

KORO the Great wrote:
>
> Chris Gleason wrote:
> >
> > Hello, everyone. I'm glad to meet all of you. Please allow me to tear the
> > following piece of tripe into shreds....
>
> Feel free.
>
> > KORO the Great <ksa...@easyaccess.com> wrote in article
> > <31A4A4...@easyaccess.com>...
> >
> > > The only good thing comming from an increased computer using population
> > > is lower prices. Everything else is just a burden to people who've been
> >
> > > using computers for a long time.
> >
> > My, aren't we the elitist? I take it by your argument that Henry Ford
> > must have been the 2.5th anti-christ for making the automobile accessible
> > to anyone making a decent salary. You know, the "Joe Sixpacks" out there
> > who bought Model Ts must have been a terrible burden to those who were
> > already driving Pierce-Arrows and Deusenbergs.
>
> Cars and computers don't make good analogies. You have to learn how to
> drive before you hop into your car.

> Computers are free.

Where do you get yours from? We have to buy them over here and so does the rest of the world.
Sombody somewhere is paying for it.

Tony (to...@warp.co.uk)

Director Warp Drive Internet Services Ltd. Tel: +44-1772-69-69-13 Fax: +44-1772-314-141

KORO the Great

unread,
May 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/29/96
to

I wasn't refering to cost.... Jeeze.

Computers are free to use. There are no restrictions or tests.
--
KORO the Great

Jay R. Ashworth

unread,
May 31, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/31/96
to

Bruce Ediger (bed...@csn.net) wrote:
: Many have thought otherwise, including the late Gary Killdall, owner of

: Digital Research, which developed CP/M.
: From Robert X. Cringely's "Accidental Empires":
: "Gary Killdall still thinks a lot of the QDOS code was stolen straight
: from his CP/M. 'Ask Bill why function code 6 [in QDOS and still in
: MS-DOS, more than ten years later] ends in a dollar sign. No one in
: the world knows that but me.'"

Do you think maybe preventing the release of this information was the
reason for his murder?

Why _is_ there a $ sign there, anyway? Did he leave the answer in his
will?

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth j...@scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us
Member of the Technical Staff Junk Mail Will Be Billed For.
The Suncoast Freenet "The world will remain dangerously unstable
Tampa Bay, Florida as long as it is populated." --me +1 813 790 7592

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