Gods definition of Religion...
G-Force
people. People who are not Christian limit me as a "religious person". The
more limited "encyclopaedic" definition of religious is very simply a person
who believes in God, several Gods or at least something divine. This is not
a good definition of religion or religiousness. Most Buddhists doesent even
fall in to that cathegory. Yet they are by the next definition some of the
most religious of all!! (This definition is the most common among born again
christians)
To define a word like that, it is necessarry to find what is the similarity
between religious people...
Religiousness is captivity...... Religion is a set of rules and
regulations that in a human way determines peoples "religions" version of
"holyness".
It is Mans struggle to reach a higher level on their way towards God, purity
or something more holy, wise, or just their senes of being a good, accepted
or "worthy" person.
Religion is man made and is one of Satans tools to bind people, so that they
never discover the personal relationship with God that they are created for.
All religions fall into this definition, even secular humanism and
christianity...
Yet Jesus, the whole New Testament and Gods Holy Spirit who lives within
all born again christians speaks against it. Jesus calls religion a burden
and He says all who has heavvy burdens, ....come to me and I will give you
rest. My burden is light.... The problem the farisees and people in Jesus
time had with Jesus was that he was not religious enough. Even the the
headon woman by the well was more religious than Jesus, because she asked
Jesus... where should one come and pray? In Jerusalem or... - But Jesus
tells her to forget it...!
What one should do or not do to feel good about oneself is religion,
How one should pray is religion, where to pray is religion, how often to
pray is religion. etc, etc...
There is a lot more to be said about this subject.. I'll just leave it up to
you for the moment...
Mvh
Fredrik - alias - g-force / Gk / g-pow/ g-kraft
David J. Vorous
> As a Christian who does not limit God...
No, you just invent one as needed.
--
David J. Vorous
Yosemite Llama Ranch
da...@TheLlamaRanch.com
http://www.TheLlamaRanch.com
UDP for WebTV
george.fleming2
different than Muslims have believed for the past 1300 years? Yet
Christianity states there will be no revelation after Christ until the
second coming. So are both Islam's Prophet Muhammed and the Baha'i faith's
Manifestations false prophets, or are Baha'i prophets the return of Christ
as Baha'is claim the Bab (The gate)and Baha'u'llah (The Glory of God) to be?
Islam is classed as a world religion with over 1 billion followers, but can
the Baha'i faith be classed as a world religion or a cult because it has
just 5 million followers. Does numbers of members have anything to do with
how a religion or a cult is judged. For instance was Christianity and Islam
cults before they became religions in the days of their beginnings?
George Fleming
There will be no further Revelation
> http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/profess3.html
66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive
Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be
expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."[28]
Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely
explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full
significance over the course of the centuries.
CHRISTIANITY AND THE BAHÁąÍ FAITH: Frequently Asked Questions
>http://www.stonehaven-press.com/cb.htm
READ TEXT ONLINE
Christianity and the Baháąí Faith: Frequently Asked Questions provides
simple, straightforward answers to a variety of the questions most often
posed by Christian seekers:
Do Baháąís believe in the Bible?
* What do Baháąís believe about Jesus Christ?
* Do Baháąís believe Christ was the Son of God?
* Doesn't the Bible also say Jesus Himself was God?
* What about the Trinity?
* Do Baháąís believe Christ rose from the dead?
* Do Baháąís believe in an afterlife?
* What are Heaven and Hell?
* Do Baháąís believe in Satan?
* What is the relationship between Christ and Baháąuąlláh?
What Do Muslims Believe about Jesus?
>http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch3-10.htm
Muslims respect and revere Jesus (peace be upon him). They consider him one
of the greatest of Godąs messengers to mankind. The Quran confirms his
virgin birth, and a chapter of the Quran is entitled ŚMaryamą (Mary). The
Quran describes the birth of Jesus as follows:
(Remember) when the angels said, łO Mary, God gives you good news of a word
from Him (God), whose name is the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, revered in
this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (to God). He
will speak to the people from his cradle and as a man, and he is of the
righteous.˛ She said, łMy Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has
touched me?˛ He said, łSo (it will be). God creates what He wills. If He
decrees a thing, He says to it only, ŚBe!ą and it is.˛ (Quran, 3:45-47)
Jesus was born miraculously by the command of God which had brought Adam
into being without a father. God has said:
The case of Jesus with God is like the case of Adam. He created him from
dust, and then He said to him, łBe!˛ and he came into being. (Quran, 3:59)
During his prophetic mission, Jesus performed many miracles. God tells us
that Jesus said:
łI have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I make for you the shape
of a bird out of clay, I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Godąs
permission. I heal the blind from birth and the leper. And I bring the
dead to life by Godąs permission. And I tell you what you eat and what you
store in your houses....˛ (Quran, 3:49)
Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified. It was the plan of Jesusą
enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. And the
likeness of Jesus was put over another man. Jesusą enemies took this man
and crucified him, thinking that he was Jesus. God has said:
...They said, łWe killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of
God.˛ They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of
him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157)
Neither Muhammad nor Jesus came to change the basic doctrine of the belief
in one God, brought by earlier prophets, but rather to confirm and renew
it.1
yowie
> As a Christian who does not limit God,
Idiot. Xians limit 'god' by giving it a name and...
[...]
> Religion is man made and is one of Satans
...nominating at least one 'thing' which 'god' is not.
[some careless person kicked over a crock of shit so I hosed it away]
> headon woman by the well was more religious than Jesus, because she asked
> Jesus... where should one come and pray? In Jerusalem or...
> - But Jesus tells her to forget it...!
Good advice.
[woosh]
--
"I'm dumb, crazy and insane, aren't I...?"
- Richard II
David J. Vorous
> Are Baha'is trying to convince westerners....
It doesn't matter. All so called prophets are phonies. Your
god is a phony too. So, what does that make you?
Right - a phony. Now you can take your silly gods and profits,
and go away.
george.fleming2
da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 12:43 am:
> george.fleming2 wrote:
>> Are Baha'is trying to convince westerners....
>
> It doesn't matter. All so called prophets are phonies. Your
> god is a phony too. So, what does that make you?
>
> Right - a phony. Now you can take your silly gods and profits,
> and go away.
The Catholic Church did not order the Baha'i Faith to go away anywhere here
is what they said...................................GF
A statement of the Roman Catholic Church re the Baha'i Faith
Getting to Know People of Other Faiths No. 8
W H A T I S T H E B A H A ' I F A I T H ?
_Introduction_
In the Vatican II 'Declaration on the relationship of the Church
with Non-Christians' we find that the Church speaks with warmth
and openness and greets People of Faith as partners in a single
great enterprise. These religions contain much that is good and
holy and provide ways of salvation for millions of people all
over the world. Throughout the documents of Vatican II we find
encouragement to respect, accept and meet as friends, those who
profess faiths different from our own. The Baha'i Faith will be
introduced here in this spirit.
_Who are the Baha'is?_
The Baha'i founders sprang from Islamic roots, but are seen by
the Baha'is as founding a religion that fulfils all previous
religions. Today Baha'is are people who formerly had different
religious backgrounds. They have been Christians, Jews, Muslims,
Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Zoroastrians or else they had no
religion at all. They give equal homage to all the past
prophets, but believe that religion progressively evolves, and
that Baha'u'llah is God's spokesman for this age. Although
Baha'is are from different religious, racial, national, economic
and social classes, the Baha'i teachings has given them a higher
loyalty--the loyalty to humanity.
To a Baha'i there is no demarcation between religion and everyday
life. The most important prayer, Baha'is say, is a person's
daily life. Religion, in other words, is an attitude towards God
reflected in life.
Today there are between 5 and 6 million Baha'is in the world,
extending over more than three hundred and forty countries,
territories and island groups. In England there are 6,000
registered Baha'is (1989) with 180 local Assemblies, resident in
over 400 localities. At least 9 people are needed to form a
local assembly. The Scriptures of the Baha'i Faith consist of
the writings of the founders and are translated into over six
hundred languages. The rapid growth they have experienced puts
them in the category of a world religion, the youngest in the
line of the prophetic tradition.
_Origins of the Baha'i Faith_
The Forerunner of the Baha'i Faith was a young Persian merchant
known as the Bab (the Gate), who in 1844 proclaimed Himself to be
a Messenger of God and a herald of One greater than Himself--One
who would inaugurate a new era in religion and civilization.
Like earlier Messengers of God, the Bab was opposed and
denounced. After six years of persecution He was publicly
martyred at the age of 30 in Tabriz.
Its founder was Baha'u'llah (the Glory of God), a Persian
nobleman who in 1863 declared Himself to be the One whose coming
the Bab and all the previous Prophets had foretold. Like His
predecessor, He was bitterly opposed and persecuted. During
nearly forty years of exile and imprisonment He committed to
writing the teachings of His revelation, some of them in letters
to the most important kings and leaders of religion, as well and
teaching and training His followers. His fourth and last place
of banishment, reached in 1865, was the prison city of 'Akka
(Acre), Palestine, where He passed away in 1892 at the age of
seventy-four.
Its authorised interpreter and exemplar was 'Abdu'l-Baha (the
servant of the Glory), eldest son of Baha'u'llah, who was
appointed by his father as the Centre of His Covenant and the one
to whom all must turn for instruction and guidance. 'Abdu'l-Baha
was the close companion and constant helper of his father, whose
sufferings he shared. He remained a prisoner until 1908, when
the old regime in Turkey was overthrown and all religious and
political prisoners were liberated. Afterwards he travelled
widely in Egypt, Europe and America, explaining the principles of
the Faith and inspiring and directing the activities of its
followers throughout the world. He passed away in Haifa in 1921,
mourned by people of all faiths. His life was and continues to
be a shining example to all. In his will and testament,
'Abdu'l-Baha appointed his grandson, Shoghi Effendi, to be the
Guardian of the Faith, and the interpreter of its scripture.
Under his guiding hand, the faith spread rapidly. He passed away
in London in 1957. Since 1963, the Faith has been under the
guidance of the Universal House of Justice.
_The Baha'i Faith_
Proclaims: The Oneness of God, the Oneness of Religion and of
Mankind, and the equality of men and women. It encourages the
elimination of prejudice of all kinds, universal education,
elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty, the protection of
cultural diversity. It also advocates individual search after
truth, the harmony of science and religion, use of an auxiliary
universal language and world government.
_The Baha'i House of Worship_
A Baha'i house of worship is open to people of all nations,
races, classes and creeds. It is a place of prayer and
meditation for all, a gift from the Baha'is and a demonstration
of their faith in the oneness of God, the oneness of His Prophets
and the oneness of mankind.
There is one major Baha'i House of Worship in each continent.
For local regular gatherings the Baha'is hold meetings in their
homes or in hired halls. The community has neither a priesthood
nor rituals. The Baha'is see their teachings as a ringing call
to action. They see them as offering hope, courage and vision,
in a world beset with universal problems.
_Baha'i Administration
Consultation is the keynote of all Baha'i administration.
There is no clergy and no ritual.
The Scripture is in written form, preserved and authentic.
Administrative bodies are called Spiritual Assemblies; they are
local, national, and international. All Assemblies meet in a
spirit of prayer.
These spiritual Assemblies are elected by the people, but their
responsibility is trust from God to whom alone they are
answerable.
There is no seeking for votes, no candidates, no platform
promises, no parties.
The Nineteen Day Feast is a community occasion, for the reading
of prayers, discussions of affairs with the Local Spiritual
Assembly, and material refreshment together.
The Universal House of Justice--an elected International body
constituted by Baha'u'llah as the supreme legislative and
governing body of the Faith--carries out its duties at the Baha'i
World Centre in Haifa Israel.
Only members of the Baha'i Faith may contribute to the Baha'i
Fund.
_Questions for discussion_
1. Baha'is clearly place great emphasis on social teaching and
the community of humankind. How do we as Christians respond
to the social teaching of the Church?
2. In what areas would cooperation with people of [the] Baha'i
Faith be most fruitful and possible?
_Suggested further reading_
'The Baha'i Faith' Leaflet published by the Baha'i publishing
Trust, 2 South Street, Oakham, Leicestershire.
'The Baha'i Faith' Booklet Ibid.
'Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah" by Baha'u'llah.
'Paris Talks' by 'Abdu'l-Baha.
'Guidelines for Today and Tomorrow' by Shoghi Effendi.
'Baha'u'llah and the New Era' by Dr. J. E. Esslemont. A complete
catalogue of Baha'i literature can be obtained by writing to :
The Baha'i Publishing Trust, 2 South Street, Oakham,
Leicerstershire LE15 6HY. [In the US, call the Baha'i
Distribution Service toll-free at 1-800-999-9019 for a free
catalog.]
- * -
This is part of the series of leaflets prepared for the Catholic
community by the Committee for Other Faiths. Understanding and
friendly relations with those who believe in God and live their
lives with religious principles and purpose contribute to the
harmony of society and the happiness of all. The series offers
useful information to those who want to overcome the obstacles of
ignorance and promote through dialogue, prayer and action the
Catholic Church's teaching of respect and love for all peoples.
The Committee is grateful to its member Sr. Elizabeth West rscj
for this contribution.
+Charles Henderson
Chairman
_Also available_:
"Neighbours and Neighbourhood--a Catholic introduction to living
with neighbours of other Faiths," "What is Islam?" "What is
Buddhism?" "Who was the Buddha?" "What is Hinduism?", "The
Mosque--the Muslim House of Prayer," "Our Sikh Neighbours."
Orders for this leaflet may be obtained from: C.F.O.F., 6a
Cresswell Park, London SE3 9RD. We regret because of inflation
and increased postage that for orders up to 25 leaflets charges
must be 10p per leaflet plus 50p post and packing. Orders in
bundles of 50 of the same leaflet 3.00 [pounds] post free.
Please make cheques payable to: N.C.F. (Other Faiths).
Further information and copies of these leaflets can be obtained
from: The Multi-Faith Centre, Harborne Hall, Old Church road,
Harbone, Birmingham B170BE and The Westminster Interfaith
Programme, 2 Church Avenue, Southall, Middlesex UB24DH.
-- Committee for Other Faiths --
Bishops' Conference of England and Wales
george.fleming2
da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 12:43 am:
> george.fleming2 wrote:
>> Are Baha'is trying to convince westerners....
>
> It doesn't matter. All so called prophets are phonies. Your
> god is a phony too. So, what does that make you?
Hi David,
Actually I found my God in Alcoholics Anonymous many years ago, the Baha'i
Faith would agree with your there. Only Phony Gods exist in AA. But as long
as he keeps me away from the demon devils buttermilk I'm happy with that.
>
> Right - a phony. Now you can take your silly gods and profits,
> and go away.
But the Baha'i Faith, or Baha'ism is not any micky duck outfit, recently
they released a letter to all worlds religious leaders, here is what one new
Zealand Christian minister called Rev Alan Creak, had to say in 2002 August.
(Safe in the arms of Jesus or whatever false Prophet who will have you after
being a drunken sallor for many years)
George Fleming
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~alan/chaplain/bahai.htm
On a letter
from the Bahá'í leadership
to the world's religious leaders.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
These notes on the open letter from the from the Bahá'í leadership to the
world's religious leaders are prepared for our use in a discussion of the
letter. The notes are my opinions; if you want the real stuff, read the
letter.
I have prepared an HTML version of the original for greater convenience. I
think the text is the same as the original. The links from the topics in the
list take you to the corresponding text of the letter.
I've also decorated my copy of the letter with some annotations which might
be of interest.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Summary
- or an attempt at a summary.
* Introduction.
* Attitudes in the twentieth century have changed greatly towards a more
unified view of the human race, with many prejudices becoming much weaker.
* Organised religion hasn't always been as helpful as we might like.
* Secular attitudes have commonly been more enlightened. Sexual equality
is an example.
* Nationalism is slowly dying out.
* Race discrimination is now condemned.
* It's slow, but it's moving.
* The importance of religion.
* Individual religions seemed to be fragile at the beginning of the 20th
century. "Interfaith movements" looked promising.
* Unification of religious traditions threatened to break out.
* But it died for want of "intellectual coherence and spiritual
commitment" - and in the face of sectarian opposition.
* Religion alone, of human endeavours, cannot face compromise and change.
* The consequences of religious fanaticism are dreadful.
* Intellectual analysis of the world's problems has been sadly neglected
by established religions.
* But religions are able to inspire their adherents to great heights of
love and courage.
* Religions alone can support benign development of the human race.
* Implications.
* Call to action, from Bahá'u'lláh.
* Basic faith is not challenged; exclusivity is.
* Growing intuition of unifying truth in all religions.
* Evolution of religion is normal; cultural expressions, intended to
enrich religion, can prove to be hindrances.
* Unity of religions might encourage conversions from one to another; why
would it matter ?
* Spiritual and secular come together as barriers between people fall.
* Religion and science are not in conflict, but mutually interdependent.
* Power corrupts; religious leadership should take note.
* Conclusion.
* Religion is the ultimate source of meaning in life.
* It is urgent that we should all recognise the essential unity of all
religions.
* The alternative is growing, and increasingly destructive, religious
prejudice.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Creak,
2002 August.
David J. Vorous
> in article 3E1CC5BC...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 12:43 am:
>
>
>>george.fleming2 wrote:
>>
>>>Are Baha'is trying to convince westerners....
>>
>>It doesn't matter. All so called prophets are phonies. Your
>>god is a phony too. So, what does that make you?
>>
>>Right - a phony. Now you can take your silly gods and profits,
>>and go away.
>
>
I don't care what the RC church has, or had, to say about
anything. I'm not a member of that religion so whatever they
say, think, or feel means nothing to me.
The person that was told to go away was you.
David J. Vorous
> in article 3E1CC5BC...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 12:43 am:
>
>
>>george.fleming2 wrote:
>>
>>>Are Baha'is trying to convince westerners....
>>
>>It doesn't matter. All so called prophets are phonies. Your
>>god is a phony too. So, what does that make you?
>
>
> Hi David,
>
Oh, that's even worse. AA has ruined more lives than it claims
to have helped.
george.fleming2
da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 5:17 am:
> george.fleming2 wrote:
>> in article 3E1CC5BC...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
>> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 12:43 am:
>>
>>
>>> george.fleming2 wrote:
>>>
>>>> Are Baha'is trying to convince westerners....
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter. All so called prophets are phonies. Your
>>> god is a phony too. So, what does that make you?
>>
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> Actually I found my God in Alcoholics Anonymous many years ago...
>
> Oh, that's even worse. AA has ruined more lives than it claims
> to have helped.
Greetings David
Dont you think you are being a little selfrighteous David. Indeed, AA has
helped me over the past 29 years to find God and keep sober and lead a very
successful life as an artist and an author. So you must have met the wrong
people.
Here is a very interesting article a professional man like youself (or
others) just might want to get his teeth into and challenge:
Gods Blessings upon you.
George
> http://bahai-library.org/unpubl.articles/sharia.html
> http://bahai-library.org/articles/babism.maceoin.html
Deconstructing and Reconstructing the Shari'a the Babi and Baha'i Solutions
to the Problem of Immutability
Denis MacEoin
george.fleming2
da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 5:15 am:
> george.fleming2 wrote:
>> in article 3E1CC5BC...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
>> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 12:43 am:
>>
>>
>>> george.fleming2 wrote:
>>>
>>>> Are Baha'is trying to convince westerners....
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter. All so called prophets are phonies. Your
>>> god is a phony too. So, what does that make you?
>>>
>>> Right - a phony. Now you can take your silly gods and profits,
>>> and go away.
>>
>>
>> The Catholic Church did not order the Baha'i Faith to go away.....
>
> I don't care what the RC church has, or had, to say about
> anything. I'm not a member of that religion so whatever they
> say, think, or feel means nothing to me.
>
> The person that was told to go away was you.
Well shucks David, just dont read or answer my post if it annoys you.
George
george.fleming2
Southern Baptists
A nearly forgotten People of the Book, the Sabaean sect adheres to its traditions while stressing what it has in common with Islam
Hamdi Al Husseini
http://www.cairotimes.com/content/archiv03/sabeans.html Like the rest of the Fertile Crescent, Iraq has a huge variety of religious schools and sects. In addition to the Shiites in the south, the Sunnis in the central and northern parts of the country, several major denominations of Christians, and the remnants of a once-thriving Jewish community, there are the Yazidis--branded 1Ž2devil-worshippersŠ by their neighbors because they revere fire--and the Sabaeans. This last group claims to be the oldest of the Semitic religions, predating the Jews and Christians.
Among themselves, they prefer to call themselves mindaa?ii (1Ž2those who knowŠ), or Mandaeans, from manda, their word for temple. The term 1Ž2SabaeanŠ--apparently derived from the Arabic word for baptism--is taken from the Quran, where it refers to another People of the Book alongside the Christians and the Jews. In fact, there?s no proven link between the Sabaeans of the Quran and the Mandaeans of today--but for a small faith in a largely Muslim country, taking on a Quranically-sanctioned identity has been a good way to ensure tolerance throughout the centuries. Today, with fewer than 100,000 adherents, mostly in Baghdad and the south, the Sabaean community is formally recognized and protected by the state.
1Ž2The Sabaean sect is one of the monotheistic sects that believes in God and his Prophets, from Adam to Noah and ending with Yahya bin Zakariya,Š explains the honorary secretary of the Sabaean Spiritual Council, 65-year-old Khalaf Abd Rabbo, who studied commerce at Ain Shams University in Cairo and graduated in 1967. The sect holds Yahya bin Zakariya (aka John the Baptist) in especially high regard, and every Sabaean hopes to make pilgrimage to his tomb in Syria.
The Sabaeans? holy book is the Ginza Rba (The Great Treasure), written in Aramaic (the spoken form of Syriac), the main Semitic language of the Fertile Crescent before the Muslim Arabs brought their desert dialect.
1Ž2We also have many books of interpretation and explanation, which are being translated into Arabic and distributed,Š says Abd Rabbo. Not only Sabaeans but other Iraqis also are encouraged to read these books, so that the sect?s protected status is understood. 1Ž2The Sabaeans are mentioned three times in the Holy Quran and are considered to be People of the BookÐour religion is not polytheistic,Š stresses Abd Rabbo. ˆWe recognize the other monotheistic religions,Š he adds.
Through their long history of communal living with Muslims in the Islamic era, the Sabaeans have taken on lot of Muslim tradition. But the sect may be best understood as an offshoot of the proto-religion that also spawned Christianity. Sunday is their holy day, and they don?t practice any form of circumcision. (Giving up circumcision was originally regarded as the defining characteristic of the breakaway Jewish sect that would become Christianity.)
The rite of baptism lies at the center of the faith. The ritual requires full immersion in running water, which is probably why Sabaeans value rivers highly and always try to live near one. Children are first baptized at one month old, but the process is repeated throughout life as an act of cleansing, reinitiation and reconfirmation. The initiate sits on his or her haunches in the Tigris in a white cotton top and trousers with a white belt of wool, and the priest recites from the Ginza Rba while pouring water on his or her head. The whole process takes half an hour.
The Sabaeans stress the point that Jesus only came forward with his religious mission once he had been baptized by John at the age of 30. According to their scriptures, Jesus said to John: 1Ž2Baptize me as others have been baptized and speak the names of God to me as they have been spoken to others.Š
While some scholars suggest that John the Baptist himself may have founded the sect, the Sabaeans believe their faith goes back much further. 1Ž2Pharaonic legends suggest even Akhnaten [Egypt?s monotheistic Eighteenth Dynasty pharaoh] was a Sabaean,Š Abd Rabbo says. Indeed, the Sabaeans regard the site of the ancient Egyptian temple of Heliopolis as another of their holy places.
Whatever its origins, the group apparently migrated to Mesopotamia from Palestine early in the Christian era, possibly following the destruction of the Jews? Second Temple by the Romans in 70AD. In recent decades, the bulk of Iraq?s Sabaean population has shifted from villages in the southern marshes to urban centers, mainly Baghdad, where they are concentrated along the banks of the Tigris. There is also a small Sabaean community in southwestern Iran, and Sabaean expatriates have sprung up in Australia and the US.
The modern Sabaean sect--much like other religious and ethnic minorities in the Middle East--is an introverted society, particularly in terms of its marriage and conversion laws. 1Ž2This is a closed religion, like Judaism,Š says Abd Rabbo. Joining the religion from outside isn?t possible, and leaving it, as occasionally happens, usually to enter Islam, is a painful experience. A Sabaean man must marry a Sabaean woman, and if a Sabaean woman marries outside the sect, 1Ž2she loses her faith, becomes non-Sabaean and has a curse fall upon her,Š Abd Rabbo says.
In Iraq, Sabaeans have their own personal status courts to handle family law cases, and the government sponsors Sabaean funeral services.
The group has supplied numerous figures to the country?s cultural and political life--poet Abdel Razzaq Abdel Wahed is a prominent example. Since Abbasid times there?s been a tradition of Sabaeans going into the medical profession. In recent decades, many of the migrants from the south have set up gold and silver shops in the capital. In the Zawra district of Baghdad, there is a major Sabaean club, which among other things puts out a magazine called Afaq Minda?iyya (Mandaean Horizons).
Sabaeans formerly had a strong presence in the state education system--Abdel Jabbar Abdullah, the celebrated head of Baghdad University in the 1960s was a member of the sect--but their public role has waned.
These days, with the regime hammering home Iraq?s Muslim identity, the Sabaeans are feeling the squeeze. Some claim to have experienced discrimination in university and the military. Even religious life may be hampered by bureaucratic obstacles. While the office for 1Ž2religious minoritiesŠ at Iraq?s Ministry of Awqaf (Endowments) is technically supposed to approve construction of a Sabaean temple in every district with 50 or more Sabaean families, there are currently only seven temples outside Baghdad. Kirkuk, a northern city with a significant Sabaean presence, got its first one recently. The other side of being protected is being grateful for whatever you can get.
John W
<george....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Will these forgotten People of the Book, followers of John the Baptist
>called the Sabaean sect who all live in Southern Iraq fight for Saddam or
>against him when the USA attacks Iraq?.....GF
Do you not believe that there were born again Christian soldiers
drafted by the Third Reich, force to fight Allied "Christian" forces?
In Christ,
John W
In Christ,
John W
------
"You don't break God's laws; they break you!"
Dr. Charlie Shedd
--------------
Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
learner
> Are Baha'is trying to convince westerners their belief in Jesus is any
> different than Muslims have believed for the past 1300 years? Yet
> Christianity states there will be no revelation after Christ until the
> second coming.
Really? What about Paul?
Learner
george.fleming2
nat...@hotmail.com wrote on 9/1/03 4:33 pm:
Would you be kind to be a little bit more explanatory . Do you mean the
Pauline Doctrine? I am not an RC but I was using the RC website below with
their documented belief against further revelation until the second coming.
(Meaning Islam and any offshoots or schisms from Islam like Baha'ism are
false revelations.
Gods Blessings
George
bluskie
> Will these forgotten People of the Book, followers of John the Baptist
> called the Sabaean sect who all live in Southern Iraq fight for Saddam or
> against him when the USA attacks Iraq?.....GF
>
>
David J. Vorous
> in article 3E1D05D1...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 5:17 am:
>
>
>>george.fleming2 wrote:
>>
>>>in article 3E1CC5BC...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
>>>da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 12:43 am:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>george.fleming2 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Are Baha'is trying to convince westerners....
>>>>
>>>>It doesn't matter. All so called prophets are phonies. Your
>>>>god is a phony too. So, what does that make you?
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi David,
>>>
>>>Actually I found my God in Alcoholics Anonymous many years ago...
>>
>>Oh, that's even worse. AA has ruined more lives than it claims
>>to have helped.
>
>
> Greetings David
>
There is no what I could ever be more "selfrighteous" than
someone from AA. Anyway, I wasn't being "selfrighteous", I
told the truth. Oh, I guess it was a truth you didn't want to
hear. Sorry.
David J. Vorous
Or the proper thing to do would be to contact your ISP and
report your trolling ass.
David J. Vorous
> Will these forgotten People of the Book....
If they were forgotten, how do you know about them?
george.fleming2
wildbl...@hotmail.com wrote on 9/1/03 7:25 pm:
Yeah, but these are the last people on earth who apparently speak Aromaic,
the language Jesus spoke. If they are all wiped out a whole language from
Christ's time will be wiped out by the US and the Brits...........GF
george.fleming2
da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 8:03 pm:
> george.fleming2 wrote:
>> Will these forgotten People of the Book....
>
> If they were forgotten, how do you know about them?
From that article in the Cairo times (An Egypten Magazine) I came upon
searching the web..................................George
george.fleming2
> On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:50:12 +0000, "george.fleming2"
> <george....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Will these forgotten People of the Book, followers of John the Baptist
>> called the Sabaean sect who all live in Southern Iraq fight for Saddam or
>> against him when the USA attacks Iraq?.....GF
>
> Do you not believe that there were born again Christian soldiers
> drafted by the Third Reich, force to fight Allied "Christian" forces?
>
> In Christ, John W
Maybe thats where the Christian hymn "Onwards Christian Soldiers marching as to War" came from , or did it go back to the crusades, I dont know. But I always remember singing that song with great vigour as a child at sunday school. However reading here about the 6000 year history of Iraq , Britian captured the country twice I think both times the Germans (third Reich) were the opposing side. Interesting the Germans in Both war thought Christ was on their side also. Did they not have the famous Lufwaffe cross on ther aircraft?
Anyway reading here, the Southern Baptists or Sabeans (followers of John the Baptist) living in Sout Iraq have been airbrushed out of history.
Gods Blessings
George
The Cradle of Civilization
Full article
http://home.achilles.net/~sal/iraq_history.html
British influence
During the First World War, which broke out in 1914, Turkey became a German ally along with Austria in a global conflict against Britain and France. Just before that time Arab independence movements were picking momentum. Arab leaders in many parts of the Arab world -including the Hashemite family of Hussein ibn-Ali promised to aid Britain by revolting against the Ottoman Turks. Arab cooperation came about when Britain agreed to recognize Arab independence after the war. The Ottoman empire collapsed when British forces invaded Mesopotamia in 1917 and occupied Baghdad. An armistice was signed with Turkey in 1918.
Arab leaders expected to work out the details of Arab independence. But in 1920 the international League of Nations assigned pieces of the Ottoman empire to the victors, putting Mesopotamia under a British administration. This arrangement, called a mandate, meant that Britain would establish a responsible Arab government in the territory according to a league-approved timetable. The failure of the British to fulfill their promises of independence encouraged Arab nationalism. Now the country became a British Mandate - due, in no small part, to the British interest in Iraqi oil fields, and because they wanted to build a transcontinental railroad from Europe, across Turkey, and down through Iraq to Kuwait on the Persian Gulf. This railroad would allow a direct trade route with India without having to skirt Africa. Local unrest (Thawrah), however, resulted in an Iraqi uprising in 1920, and after costly attempts to quell this, the British government decided to draw up a new plan for the state of Iraq.
The British government had laid out the institutional framework for Iraqi government and politics; the Iraqi political system suffered from a severe legitimacy crisis; Britain imposed a Hashimite (also seen as Hashemite) monarchy, defined the territorial limits of Iraq with little correspondence to natural frontiers or traditional tribal and ethnic settlements, and influenced the writing of a constitution and the structure of parliament. The British also supported narrowly based groups--such as the tribal shaykhs--over the growing, urban-based nationalist movement, and resorted to military force when British interests were threatened, as in the 1941 Rashid Ali Al-Gaylani coup.
Iraq was to be a kingdom, under the rule of Emir Faisal ibn Hussain, brother of the new ruler of neighboring Jordan, Abdallah, a member of the Hashemite family, and although the monarch was elected and proclaimed King by plebiscite in 1921, full independence was not achieved until 1932, when the British Mandate was officially terminated. In 1927, discovery of huge oil fields near Karkuk brought many improvements to Iraq. The Iraqis granted oil rights to the Iraqi Petroleum Company -a British dominated, multinational firm.
Iraq joined the League of Nations in the October of that year, and was officially recognized as an independent sovereign state. On Faisal's death in 1933, he was succeeded by his son, King Ghazi I. In March 1945, Iraq became a founding member of the League of Arab States (Arab League), which included Egypt, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen. And in December 1945, Iraq joined the United Nations (UN).
The growing state
In 1936 King Ghazi I formed an alliance with other Arab nations, known as the Pan-Arab movement. This was, in effect, a non-aggression treaty, and promising kinship between Arab countries. Also in 1936 Iraq experienced its first military coup d'etat--the first coup d'etat in the modern Arab world, led by General Bakr Sidqi. The Sidqi coup (29th of October, 1936) marked a major turning point in Iraqi history; it made a crucial breach in the constitution, and it opened the door to further military involvement in politics. Ghazi sanctioned Sulayman's government (Hikmat Sulayman was one of the agents of the coup along with General Bakr Sidqi) even though it had achieved power unconstitutionally, overthrowing Yasin al-Hashimi's government, killing Ja'afar al-Askari its Minister of Defense. Eventually, Sidqi's excesses alienated both his civilian and his military supporters, and he was murdered by a military group in August 1937.
In 1938 King Ghazi decided to attempt to realize his ambition of annexing Kuwait, part of his dream to lead the Fertile Crescent movement [King Ghazi announced from Qasr al-Zohour radio station that he was looking forward to the day when Syria, Palestine, and Kuwait were united to Iraq]. With a combination of propaganda (Qasr al-Zohour radio station), and military intimidation, he began to foment dissent in Kuwait, exploiting the aspirations of sections of the Kuwaiti middle class, which sought greater participation in government. But, at a critical moment, when Iraqi troops had massed near Kuwait's northern border, Ghazi's obsession with fast motor cars proved his undoing. The king drove his car into a lamppost and died instantly on the 3rd of April 1939.
King Ghazi was succeeded by his three-year-old son, Faisal II, under a regency. Ghazi's first cousin, Amir Abd al Ilah, was made regent. Faisal, the cousin of Jordan's late King Hussein bin Talal, did not assume the throne formally until his eighteenth birthday, in May 1953. Whereas Faisal and Ghazi had been strong Arab nationalists and had opposed the British-supported tribal shaykhs, Abd al Ilah and Nuri as-Said were Iraqi nationalists who relied on the tribal shaykhs as a counterforce against the growing urban nationalist movement. By the end of the 1930s, Pan-Arabism had become a powerful ideological force in the Iraqi military, especially among younger officers who hailed from the northern provinces and who had suffered economically from the partition of the Ottoman Empire. The British role in quelling the Palestine revolt of 1936 to 1939 further intensified anti-British sentiments in the military and led a group of disgruntled officers to form the Free Officers' Movement, which aimed at overthrowing the monarchy.
During the earlier part of World War II, Iraq's government was strongly pro-British, however, the Iraqi nationalist, and ardent Anglophobe Rashid Ali Al-Gaylani succeeded Nuri as-Said as prime minister. The new prime minister sought close ties with Nazi Germany in hope to release Iraq from British domination. Rashid Ali proposed restrictions on British troops movements in Iraq. Abd al Ilah and Nuri as-Said both were proponents of close cooperation with Britain. They opposed Rashid Ali's policies and pressed him to resign. In response, the army surrounded The Royal palace in Baghdad on April 1,1941. The regent and his entourage escaped to Habbaniyah, from there to Basrah and thence to Amman in Transjordan. Rashid Ali and four generals dubbed the "Golden Square", led a military coup, on April 3, 1941, that ousted Nuri as-Said and the regent; and announced that the temporarily absent regent was deposed.
Backed by the German embassy in Baghdad headed by Dr F. Grobba, which generously supplied money, books and films, the sentiments against the Jews were fuelled. There were demonstrations against the British and Jews by hoodlums and students who had taken to the streets.
Shortly after seizing power in 1941, Rashid Ali Al-Gaylani appointed an ultranationalist civilian cabinet, which gave only conditional consent to British requests in April 1941 for troop landings in Iraq. The British quickly retaliated by landing forces at Basrah on April 19, justifying this second occupation of Iraq by citing Rashid Ali's violation of the Anglo-Iraqi Treaty of 1930. Many Iraqis regarded the move as an attempt to restore British rule. Iraqi troops were then concentrated around the British air base at Habbaniyah, west of Baghdad; and on May 2 the British commander there opened hostilities, lest the Iraqis should attack first. Having won the upper hand at Habbaniyah and been reinforced from Palestine, the British troops from the air base marched on Baghdad. The ensuing war between Britain and Iraq lasted less than a month, as the British steadily advanced, and on May 30th Rashid Ali Al-Gaylani and his government fled the country.
On the same day an evil conspiracy carried out by Yunis Al Sabawi, head of Nazi groups, who declared himself governor of central southern Iraq. He ordered Jews through Hakham Sasson Khedouri, to remain in their homes from Saturday, May 31 until Monday, June 2 ‹Shabu'oth. with the intention of slaughtering the Jews that weekend using the Nazi youth organizations he was heading. However, miraculously, Sabawi was deported to the Iranian border that same day. On May 31,1941 it was announced that the Regent with his entourage would be returning to Baghdad next day. The Farhud took place Sunday and Monday, June 1st and 2nd 1941, the two days of Shabu'oth. The word Farhud denotes the breakdown of law and order, where life and property are in peril.
June 1, '41, the first day of Shabu'oth: A delegation of Jews went to the airport to welcome the Regent. On their way back they were attacked on Al Khurr Bridge by soldiers and civilians. One Jew was killed, and many injured who were taken to the hospital. Terror continued until 10 p.m.
June 2,1941: at 5 p.m., curfew was declared and anyone who showed himself in the streets was shot on the spot. Official Iraqi reports mention 187 killed in both days of the Farhud. During those difficult times, many Iraqi Moslems opened their homes and fed and protected the Jews.
Rashid Ali Al-Gaylani and his government fled to Iran on his way to Germany, as a guest of the Fuehrer, he spent the remainder of the war broadcasting to the Arab world and planning to regain power when German pincers from Egypt and the Caucasus finally met at the Persian Gulf. He survived the war and escaped to Saudi Arabia where he was granted asylum, returning to Iraq after the 1958 revolution. A new, pro-British government was established. Abd al Ilah was reinstated as regent; Nuri became prime minister; and the British military presence remained to uphold them. In the following year Iraq became an important Middle Eastern supply centre for American and British forces, particularly with regard to the trans-shipment of arms to the USSR.
David J. Vorous
> in article 3E1DD59...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 8:03 pm:
>
>
>>george.fleming2 wrote:
>>
>>>Will these forgotten People of the Book....
>>
>>If they were forgotten, how do you know about them?
>
>
Then you lied. They weren't forgotten. Your whole premise is
based on a lie mixed with fantasy.
Pat Kohli
"David J. Vorous" wrote:
>
> >>I don't care what the RC church has, or had, to say about
> >>anything. I'm not a member of that religion so whatever they
> >>say, think, or feel means nothing to me.
> >>
> >>The person that was told to go away was you.
> >
> >
> > Well shucks David, just dont read or answer my post if it annoys you.
>
> Or the proper thing to do would be to contact your ISP and
> report your trolling ass.
That might get some results! The addressee would be: ab...@ntlworld.com.
From a header, two referenced messages up this thread:
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Subject: Re: False prophets or the Return iof Christ
From: "george.fleming2" <george....@ntlworld.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.jesus-christ, alt.flame.jesus.christ,
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References: <avh31a$uec$1...@lise.netcom.no>
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<3E1D058A...@thellamaranch.com>
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David J. Vorous
>
> "David J. Vorous" wrote:
>
>
>>>>I don't care what the RC church has, or had, to say about
>>>>anything. I'm not a member of that religion so whatever they
>>>>say, think, or feel means nothing to me.
>>>>
>>>>The person that was told to go away was you.
>>>
>>>
>>>Well shucks David, just dont read or answer my post if it annoys you.
>>
>>Or the proper thing to do would be to contact your ISP and
>>report your trolling ass.
>
>
> That might get some results! The addressee would be: ab...@ntlworld.com.
Already done. Now if a few others would do the same, his ISP
might try to do something about his trolling.
george.fleming2
da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 11:41 pm:
> george.fleming2 wrote:
>> in article 3E1DD59...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
>> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 8:03 pm:
>>
>>
>>> george.fleming2 wrote:
>>>
>>>> Will these forgotten People of the Book....
>>>
>>> If they were forgotten, how do you know about them?
>>
>>
>> From that article in the Cairo times (An Egypten Magazine)....
>
> Then you lied. They weren't forgotten. Your whole premise is
> based on a lie mixed with fantasy.
I was only repeating what I thought the title of the articte said.
In fact it said *nearly* forgotten . My humble apoligies if I misled you.
Did you know they speak Aromaic, the language Jesus spoke 2000 years ago?
God Bless David
George
David J. Vorous
> in article 3E1E08C4...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 11:41 pm:
>
>
>>george.fleming2 wrote:
>>
>>>in article 3E1DD59...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
>>>da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 8:03 pm:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>george.fleming2 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Will these forgotten People of the Book....
>>>>
>>>>If they were forgotten, how do you know about them?
>>>
>>>
>>>From that article in the Cairo times (An Egypten Magazine)....
>>
>>Then you lied. They weren't forgotten. Your whole premise is
>>based on a lie mixed with fantasy.
>
>
> I was only repeating what I thought the title of the articte said.
Oh, now the story changes.... figures. Anyway, the god of the
bible is a fantasy and only exists in myths and literature.
Anything said about the christian gods is based on that myth.
learner
> in article c53bb03c.03010...@posting.google.com, learner at
> nat...@hotmail.com wrote on 9/1/03 4:33 pm:
>
> > "george.fleming2" <george....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:<BA4240A0.B974%george....@ntlworld.com>...
> >
> >> Are Baha'is trying to convince westerners their belief in Jesus is any
> >> different than Muslims have believed for the past 1300 years? Yet
> >> Christianity states there will be no revelation after Christ until the
> >> second coming.
> >
> > Really? What about Paul?
> >
> > Learner
>
> Would you be kind to be a little bit more explanatory . Do you mean the
> Pauline Doctrine?
Sure. Paul came on the scene after Jesus. Paul brought revelations
from God in the form of the Epistles. Also, John wrote the Book of
Revelation after Jesus ascended to heaven. Therefore, revelation did
not end when Jesus left the earth.
Learner
John W
<george....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>in article r48r1v0ehst870atl...@4ax.com, John W at
>john_wea...@yahoo.com wrote on 9/1/03 4:18 pm:
>
>> On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:50:12 +0000, "george.fleming2"
>> <george....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Will these forgotten People of the Book, followers of John the Baptist
>>> called the Sabaean sect who all live in Southern Iraq fight for Saddam or
>>> against him when the USA attacks Iraq?.....GF
>>
>> Do you not believe that there were born again Christian soldiers
>> drafted by the Third Reich, force to fight Allied "Christian" forces?
>>
>> In Christ, John W
>
>Greetings John,
>
>Maybe thats where the Christian hymn "Onwards Christian Soldiers marching as
>to War" came from , or did it go back to the crusades, I dont know.
I don't know that the Nazi Christian soldiers created the above hymn
when marching into battle. But I HAVE heard several places that these
German troops DID sing this song, which gave the Allies some
consternation, killing Christian Nazi soldiers. "War Is Hell!" Who
said that? And there are SEVERAL stories from WWII about the Nazi
soldiers being heard singing Christmas carols in the trenches. One I
*know* you've all heard was "Silent Nicht" (I am not sure I got Silent
correct). If Silent Nicht isn't a Christian hymn of worship for the
baby King, I don't know one.
>always remember singing that song with great vigour as a child at sunday
>school. However reading here about the 6000 year history of Iraq , Britian
>captured the country twice I think both times the Germans (third Reich)
>were the opposing side. Interesting the Germans in Both war thought Christ
>was on their side also.
Yep!
Last I heard, the Luftwaffe cross is NOT a Christian cross. It's not
short at the top.
Did they not have the famous Lufwaffe cross on ther
>aircraft?
Yep. Could be Christian; could be NOT Christian. Anyone know for sure?
Please provide documentation!
>
>Anyway reading here, the Southern Baptists or Sabeans (followers of John the
>Baptist) living in Sout Iraq have been airbrushed out of history.
Christians have been airbrushed out of history all through the
centuries since the Romans fed the Christians to the lions. Mother
Rome is STILL erasing non-Catholic Christians, as became VERY evident
last year (or so) when Mexican (read Roman Catholic) police executed
several Baptist missionaries in Mexico for the crime of evangelizing
Roman Catholics in a Roman Catholic police state.
In Christ,
John W
>
>Gods Blessings
GEORGE! You forgot the APOSTROPHE! (God's)
>
>George
>
>
>The Cradle of Civilization
>
>
>Full article
>http://home.achilles.net/~sal/iraq_history.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
In Christ,
John W
wrote:
At least if they are truly born again, they will go to heaven!
Let's not stop praying that this war won't happen! But God knows best!
In Christ,
John W
John W
By WHOM? I think you meant to say by Saddam. We didn't start this war.
We are OBLIGATED to defend our nation! Would you prefer we become
Iraqis and cover our women head to toe in burkas? The Saddam / Al
Quaida connection is clear. And he obviously isn't going to stop; he
must BE stopped.
John W
I appreciate george's sentiments; but we must also be real.
John W
On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 12:03:29 -0800, "David J. Vorous"
<da...@thellamaranch.com> wrote:
>george.fleming2 wrote:
>> Will these forgotten People of the Book....
>
>If they were forgotten, how do you know about them?
In Christ,
John W
Then apparently you have been snowed. If the Egyptians know about
them, and the Egyptian media know about them, they ain't "lost".
WE Americans may not know about them, but now, thanks to YOU, we do!
Have you contacted your local media? Of course, don't expect them to
care! The media are NOTORIOUSLY anti-Christ.
Letterman profaned God half-a-dozen times in a 5-minute monolog on
his first show after 9-11. The WORLD was praying and mourning and
seeking God in those times, and Letterman got up and used every
profane word there is for God, starting with "What's the Goddamned
point?... I mean, Jesus CHRIST!"
Sorry if I've offended anyone! We're all adults (aren't we?)
The media called it the highest rated talk show of the year!
In Christ,
John W
John W
You are confused, unless you are using a different spelling that the
Egyptians use. The name of the language is "ArAmaic", not "ArOmaic".
This different spelling may be confusing others; it DEFINITELY
confused me!
You might also wish to do a little more thinking over articles on the
net/and in the print media before you report them to us. This was
kinda shallow. Sounds like Egypt is working OVERTIME to tell us the
MANY reasons we should cowardly slink away from defending ourselves
from Saddam and Usama!
In Christ,
John W
>
>God Bless David
>
>George
The Scarlet Pumpernickel
george....@ntlworld.com
> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 5:17 am:
>
> > george.fleming2 wrote:
> >> in article 3E1CC5BC...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
> >> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 12:43 am:
> >>
> >>
> >>> george.fleming2 wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Are Baha'is trying to convince westerners....
> >>>
> >>> It doesn't matter. All so called prophets are phonies. Your
> >>> god is a phony too. So, what does that make you?
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi David,
> >>
> >> Actually I found my God in Alcoholics Anonymous many years ago...
> >
> > Oh, that's even worse. AA has ruined more lives than it claims
> > to have helped.
>
> Greetings David
>
> Dont you think you are being a little selfrighteous David. Indeed, AA has
> helped me over the past 29 years to find God and keep sober and lead a very
> successful life as an artist and an author.
I just know I'm going to hate myself for asking this question,
but... what have you written?
VernonOJ
"David J. Vorous" <da...@thellamaranch.com> wrote in message
news:3E1E3F56...@thellamaranch.com...
> george.fleming2 wrote:
> > in article 3E1E08C4...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
> > da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 11:41 pm:
> >
> >
> >>george.fleming2 wrote:
> >>
> >>>in article 3E1DD59...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
> >>>da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 8:03 pm:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>george.fleming2 wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Will these forgotten People of the Book....
> >>>>
> >>>>If they were forgotten, how do you know about them?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>From that article in the Cairo times (An Egypten Magazine)....
> >>
> >>Then you lied. They weren't forgotten. Your whole premise is
> >>based on a lie mixed with fantasy.
> >
> >
> > I was only repeating what I thought the title of the articte said.
> > In fact it said *nearly* forgotten ....
>
> Oh, now the story changes.... figures. Anyway, the god of the
> bible is a fantasy and only exists in myths and literature.
> Anything said about the christian gods is based on that myth.
Well thank you, local illiterate.
Forgotten and nearly forgotten although literally different are the same
literately.
Whether you believe in a god or not, Jesus was a real person and Aramaic a
real language of the times.
Also, there are no Christian "gods"
DUHHH
nick cobb
POSTINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
David J. Vorous
> ...
> Sure. Paul came on the scene after Jesus. Paul brought revelations
> from God in the form of the Epistles.
"Paul" didn't write most of them. And it wasn't from any god.
It was either mushrooms, or temporal lobe epilepsy.
> Also, John wrote the Book of
> Revelation after Jesus ascended to heaven.
It's obvious that Rev had a different author than the rest of
the stuff there.
> Therefore, revelation did
> not end when Jesus left the earth.
Haven't you heard? He was never here in the first place.
David J. Vorous
> ....I don't know that the Nazi Christian soldiers......
Not all German soldiers were Nazi. In fact most weren't. My
uncle had a German belt buckle from WWII. On it was written
(in German) "God is with us."
David J. Vorous
> ...
> By WHOM? I think you meant to say by Saddam. We didn't start this war.
> We are OBLIGATED to defend our nation!
The problem is that little Saddam in no threat to this country.
David J. Vorous
> Ha ha ha! LOL! Good point, David!
>
> I appreciate george's sentiments; but we must also be real.
Yes, we must be real. That means we have do dump all this god
stuff and get real.
David J. Vorous
> ....Letterman profaned God half-a-dozen times in a 5-minute
monolog....
Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
David J. Vorous
> STOP YOUR CROSS-POSTING TO GROUPS WHO HAVE NO INTEREST IN YOUR
> POSTINGS!
Yelling won't help. What would help is to let us know what
newgroup your in and politely ask to be removed. That is if
you could be polite.
David J. Vorous
> Well thank you, local illiterate.
Oh, I see. Becaue I know your christian gods are a fantasy,
I'm illiterate. I guess that's the only way you can deal with
what you don't want to hear.
george.fleming2
That was exactly what I was talking about in my first post. Christs
revelation is still in place today. Sorry if my post was confusing.
Islam believes the Muhammaden revelation superseeded the Christian one in
622, and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah superseeded the Islamic one in 1863.
But Christianuty believes both these latter revelations are false.
"Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth
forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a
corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:17 -18
Gods blessing upon you
George
george.fleming2
john_wea...@yahoo.com wrote on 10/1/03 3:57 am:
>
> Christians have been airbrushed out of history all through the
> centuries since the Romans fed the Christians to the lions. Mother
> Rome is STILL erasing non-Catholic Christians, as became VERY evident
> last year (or so) when Mexican (read Roman Catholic) police executed
> several Baptist missionaries in Mexico for the crime of evangelizing
> Roman Catholics in a Roman Catholic police state.
>
John, have you any documentation on this story to vertify its truthfulness?
George
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.
>
> On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:22:24 +0000, "george.fleming2"
> <george....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Maybe thats where the Christian hymn "Onwards Christian Soldiers marching as
> >to War" came from , or did it go back to the crusades, I dont know.
>
> I don't know that the Nazi Christian soldiers created the above hymn
> when marching into battle. But I HAVE heard several places that these
> German troops DID sing this song, which gave the Allies some
> consternation, killing Christian Nazi soldiers. "War Is Hell!" Who
> said that? And there are SEVERAL stories from WWII about the Nazi
> soldiers being heard singing Christmas carols in the trenches. One I
> *know* you've all heard was "Silent Nicht" (I am not sure I got Silent
> correct). If Silent Nicht isn't a Christian hymn of worship for the
> baby King, I don't know one.
No doubt.
Onward christian soldiers,
duty's way is plain.
Slay your christian neighbor,
or by him be slain.
Pulpiteers are spouting
effervescent swill,
If you love the lamb of god,
then rob and rape and kill.
John W
<da...@thellamaranch.com> wrote:
>John W wrote:
>> ....Letterman profaned God half-a-dozen times in a 5-minute
>monolog....
>
>Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
In your totally useless opinion, perhaps. Bear in mind, also, that as
you deny Him, He denies you!
Hundreds of millions of Christians who have EXPERIENCED Christ and
conversion would argue that He DOES exist, and you can't prove
otherwise!
And the spiritual gifts we born again Christians ALL receive prove
you wrong, to say nothing of fulfilled prophesy even today!
John W
<da...@thellamaranch.com> wrote:
>John W wrote:
>> Ha ha ha! LOL! Good point, David!
>>
>> I appreciate george's sentiments; but we must also be real.
>
>Yes, we must be real. That means we have do dump all this god
>stuff and get real.
Well, you made ONe good point! I guess that was the only one you had
in you! This one is total crap, since you can no way prove that God
does NOT exist, and your ego which demands that you worship no one
greater than you does NOT bring you any closer to your Eternal
destiny.
Only the MOST foolish would reject belief in the God they/you merely
haven't encountered yet. Scientists don't typically ignore scientific
data. Yet on the spiritual level, you reject all proof merely because
you refuse to believe! That's HARDLY apologetics for atheism, and
merely indicates your obstinate rebellion against reality!
As stated previously, although you can't prove God in a test tube, you
CAN prove Him in "field tests."
In christ,
John W
John W
<da...@thellamaranch.com> wrote:
>VernonOJ wrote:
>> Well thank you, local illiterate.
>
>Oh, I see. Becaue I know your christian gods are a fantasy,
>I'm illiterate. I guess that's the only way you can deal with
>what you don't want to hear.
Ditto! You don't want to hear about the reality of the God you can't
disprove. Refusing to listen to the evidence for Christianity doesn't
make you educated. It merely makes you closed minded and foolish!
(In the baptist group, we aren't roll-over wussies as you might think!
We're smart, we're educated, and we don't push around! Come in here,
and you'll take your licks!)
In Christ,
David J. Vorous
> On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 22:32:46 -0800, "David J. Vorous"
> <da...@thellamaranch.com> wrote:
>
>
>>John W wrote:
>>
>>>....Letterman profaned God half-a-dozen times in a 5-minute
>>
>>monolog....
>>
>>Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
>
>
> In your totally useless opinion
Since your opinion is based on fantasy gods of mythical
proportions, you are worthless. Your gods are not real. Get
over it.
David J. Vorous
> On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 22:30:36 -0800, "David J. Vorous"
> <da...@thellamaranch.com> wrote:
>
>
>>John W wrote:
>>
>>>Ha ha ha! LOL! Good point, David!
>>>
>>>I appreciate george's sentiments; but we must also be real.
>>
>>Yes, we must be real. That means we have do dump all this god
>>stuff and get real.
>
>
> Well, you made ONe good point!
One you should pay attention to.
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.
>
> learner wrote:
> > ...
> > Sure. Paul came on the scene after Jesus. Paul brought revelations
> > from God in the form of the Epistles.
>
> "Paul" didn't write most of them. And it wasn't from any god.
> It was either mushrooms, or temporal lobe epilepsy.
Delirium Tremens. Pink elephants.
george.fleming2
yowie at yo...@apocolocyntosis.org wrote on 10/1/03 7:33 am:
> In alt.flame.jesus.christ, The Scarlet Pumpernickel wrote...
>
>
>>> Dont you think you are being a little selfrighteous David. Indeed, AA has
>>> helped me over the past 29 years to find God and keep sober and lead a very
>>> successful life as an artist and an author.
>>
>> I just know I'm going to hate myself for asking this question,
>> but... what have you written?
>
> http://www.bahai.org.uk/uk_review/prev_iss/2/p4.htm
>
> http://www.miracles.win-uk.net/BahaiArtGallery/HTML/GeorgeFleming/Artist.html
With regards the person who put these websites of my artwork- (Short
Biography) and writing history on this thread. I wish to say I have no
means of control over These websites as I did not install them myself. They
were constructed whilst I was a member of the Baha'i Faith and I have no
means of deleting them now.
But if they are to be used as a means of propagating the Baha'i Faith, below
is documentation to vertify my resigination from the Baha'i faith recently.
I am still in favour of inter-faith, peace in the sad world we live in.
God Bless
George Fleming
--------------------------------------
Letter from NSA of the Baha'is of the United Kingdom'
27 Rutland gate, London SW7 1PD
October 18,2002
Mr George Fleming
Dear Baha'i friend,
The national Spirtual assembly appreciates your desire to defend the good
name of our beloved Faith and the sincerity with which you seek to do so.
However, uour recent imvolvement in certain email discussion groups may have
inadvertently helped the cause of those very individuals from whom you are
seeking to protect the Faith, and this has become a source of some concern
to the National Assembly.
The national Spiritual Assembly therefore instructs you, with immediate
effect, to cease and disist from participating in the SCI, TRB and ARB
e-discussion lists and in any other unmoderated discussions conducted over
email. Further, you are requested to cease direct communication with Pat
Kohli and Susan Maneck and the national Spirtual Assembbly of the United
States. However should you have a grievance which you would like to bring to
the attention of the latter body you are kindly asked to refer such a matter
to the attention of the National Assembly of the United Kingdom.
The national Assembly further asks you to refrain from discussing any of the
issues raised in this letter with anyone other than Councellor Shahriavi,
the national Spirtual Assembly of the United Kingdom, or Auxiliary Board
members Denis Coyle and Ann O'Sullivan.
The National Spirtual Assembly trusts that you will abide by what is now
being asked of you. Should you fail to do so, the national Assembly will
have no choice but to take further action.
With loving Baha'i greetings.
National Spirtual Assembly
Kishan Manocha, Assistant Secretary.
George Fleming
Belfast N Ireland
Dear National Spirtual Assembly members
After reading your letter 18/10/02 were you stated:
"The NSA therefore instructs you, with immediate effect, to cease and desist
from particpating in SCI, TRB, and ARB e-discussion lists and in any other
unmoderated discussions conducted over e/mail"
Along with SCI there are some 42,760 more unmoderated groups on the internet
which are not Baha'i related unmoderated newsgroups.
I therefore believe this instruction is totally against me my human and
freedom of rights, and therefore have been left with no alternattive other
than to resign from the Baha'i Faith.
I herby declare that on 21/10/02 George Fleming Belfast N Ireland has
resigned his membership from the Baha'i Faith.
Membership Number ******
Signed George Fleming Bahai Faith membership card enclosed.
Rev. Phylter
news:BA43D436.BC97%george....@ntlworld.com:
> in article 3E1E08C4...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 11:41 pm:
>
>> george.fleming2 wrote:
>>> in article 3E1DD59...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
>>> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 9/1/03 8:03 pm:
>>>
>>>
>>>> george.fleming2 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Will these forgotten People of the Book....
>>>>
>>>> If they were forgotten, how do you know about them?
>>>
>>>
>>> From that article in the Cairo times (An Egypten Magazine)....
>>
>> Then you lied. They weren't forgotten. Your whole premise is
>> based on a lie mixed with fantasy.
>
> I was only repeating what I thought the title of the articte said.
> In fact it said *nearly* forgotten . My humble apoligies if I misled you.
> Did you know they speak Aromaic, the language Jesus spoke 2000 years ago?
>
> God Bless David
>
> George
>
That's "Aramaic" the dialect of "Aramathea". Not sure there WAS a Jesus who
spoke it though.
--
Reverend Phylter: Universal Life Church Minister
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
http://www.rudraigh.com/afjc/regulars.html
nick cobb
"Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A." <cdub@_REMOVETHIS_erols.com> wrote in message news:<3E1EA6B9.2863@_REMOVETHIS_erols.com>...
learner
> in article c53bb03c.03010...@posting.google.com, learner at
> nat...@hotmail.com wrote on 10/1/03 3:55 am:
> >>>> Are Baha'is trying to convince westerners their belief in Jesus is any
> >>>> different than Muslims have believed for the past 1300 years? Yet
> >>>> Christianity states there will be no revelation after Christ until the
> >>>> second coming.
> >>>
> >>> Really? What about Paul?
> >>>
> >>> Learner
> >>
> >> Would you be kind to be a little bit more explanatory . Do you mean the
> >> Pauline Doctrine?
> >
> > Sure. Paul came on the scene after Jesus. Paul brought revelations
> > from God in the form of the Epistles. Also, John wrote the Book of
> > Revelation after Jesus ascended to heaven. Therefore, revelation did
> > not end when Jesus left the earth.
> >
> > Learner
>
> That was exactly what I was talking about in my first post. Christs
> revelation is still in place today. Sorry if my post was confusing.
No, you said that:
Yet Christianity states there will be no revelation after Christ until
the
second coming.
This is clearly false.
> Islam believes the Muhammaden revelation superseeded the Christian one in
> 622, and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah superseeded the Islamic one in 1863.
> But Christianuty believes both these latter revelations are false.
People are free to believe what they wish. However, according to the
Bible's teachings, Muhammad is not a Prophet. In fact, according to
the Qur'an, Muhammad also fails the test of prophethood. Anyone who
claims to be a prophet must be prepared to have his prophecy tested.
The "prophecy" of Muhammad is the Qur'an which makes three claims
that can be tested:
1. It confirms the teachings of the Bible.
2. It makes clearer the teachings of the Bible.
3. Muhammad is foretold in the Bible.
However, the fact is that the Qur'an does not confirm the teachings of
the Bible; it does not make clearer the teachings of the Bible; and
Muhammad is not foretold in the Bible.
> "Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth
> forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a
> corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:17 -18
And what fruit did Muhammad bring? Muhammad told his henchmen to
murder a woman named Asma' Bint Marwan simply because she made up a
poem which made sport of him. She was murdered in bed in the company
of her 5 children, one nursing from her breast. Some "man of God"!
Learner
David J. Vorous
Or just naturally psychotic.
David J. Vorous
> -----STOP YOUR CROSS-POSTINGS!-------
Little nicky, if you'd just let us know which newsgroup you're
from, and if you asked nicely, MAYBE some of us would take
your newsgroup out of the header.
David J. Vorous
> On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 22:36:18 -0800, "David J. Vorous"
> <da...@thellamaranch.com> wrote:
>
>
>>VernonOJ wrote:
>>
>>>Well thank you, local illiterate.
>>
>>Oh, I see. Becaue I know your christian gods are a fantasy,
>>I'm illiterate. I guess that's the only way you can deal with
>>what you don't want to hear.
>
>
Except that you have no proof of this "reality of the god..."
GuranGuran
<da...@thellamaranch.com> wrote:
>nick cobb wrote:
>> -----STOP YOUR CROSS-POSTINGS!-------
>
>Little nicky, if you'd just let us know which newsgroup you're
>from, and if you asked nicely, MAYBE some of us would take
>your newsgroup out of the header.
Then again, maybe not.
...
george.fleming2
yowie at yo...@apocolocyntosis.org wrote on 10/1/03 10:15 pm:
> In alt.flame.jesus.christ, george.fleming2 trolled...
>
>> in article 4hts1vsjb0beigt39...@news.apocolocyntosis.org,
>> yowie at yo...@apocolocyntosis.org wrote on 10/1/03 7:33 am:
>
>
>> But if they are to be used as a means of propagating the Baha'i Faith, below
>> is documentation to vertify my resigination from the Baha'i faith recently.
>
>> I am still in favour of inter-faith, peace in the sad world we live in.
>
> [George's former religious masters: Stop being a net kook!]
> [George: No!]
>
> You should have taken their advice. 'Baha'i' was something of which I was
> only dimly aware and to which I was not particularly averse - until you
> shoveled it in my face like so much manure.
Are you another one of these selfrigheous guys who thinks he is moderator of
of the whole internet. Have you ever heard of freedom of expression. No one
has put a gun to your head to read any material you dont want to. Just
ignore it like most reasonable people do, if you think its manure.
God Bless
George
>
george.fleming2
nat...@hotmail.com wrote on 10/1/03 5:53 pm:
> "george.fleming2" <george....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:<BA441BCF.BCCC%george....@ntlworld.com>...
>
>
>> "Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth
>> forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a
>> corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:17 -18
>
> And what fruit did Muhammad bring? Muhammad told his henchmen to
> murder a woman named Asma' Bint Marwan simply because she made up a
> poem which made sport of him. She was murdered in bed in the company
> of her 5 children, one nursing from her breast. Some "man of God"!
That is called corrupt fruit, but even Islam has not much to say about
Baha'ism or 8 other islamic cults or breakaways from their main rekigion..GF
36- CORRUPT RELIGIONS
This website deals with nine irreligious cults.
http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Endless_Bliss_Second_Fascicle/bliss2-36.htm
Don Bradley
> revelation is still in place today. Sorry if my post was confusing.
> Islam believes the Muhammaden revelation superseeded the Christian one in
> 622, and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah superseeded the Islamic one in 1863.
> But Christianuty believes both these latter revelations are false.
>
> "Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth
> forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a
> corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:17 -18
George,
I have been thinking about your statement that I believe Baha'is own
God. I see here that your own commitment is to the view that
Christianity is true and the other faiths false, which suggests to me
that maybe you think _Christians_ have an exclusive monopoly on
relationship with God. If the (supposed) Baha'i claim to "own God" is
a strike against them, what is it when the same claim is made by
Christians? Is it really consistent to level a charge at Baha'is - who
believe in the oneness and divinity of all faiths - that applies much
better to those of your own faith?
Don
GuranGuran
<george....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>in article efhu1vok78b0j4fup...@news.apocolocyntosis.org,
>yowie at yo...@apocolocyntosis.org wrote on 10/1/03 10:15 pm:
>
>> In alt.flame.jesus.christ, george.fleming2 trolled...
>>
>>> in article 4hts1vsjb0beigt39...@news.apocolocyntosis.org,
>>> yowie at yo...@apocolocyntosis.org wrote on 10/1/03 7:33 am:
>>
>>
>>> But if they are to be used as a means of propagating the Baha'i Faith, below
>>> is documentation to vertify my resigination from the Baha'i faith recently.
>>
>>> I am still in favour of inter-faith, peace in the sad world we live in.
>>
>> [George's former religious masters: Stop being a net kook!]
>> [George: No!]
>>
>> You should have taken their advice. 'Baha'i' was something of which I was
>> only dimly aware and to which I was not particularly averse - until you
>> shoveled it in my face like so much manure.
>
>Are you another one of these selfrigheous guys who thinks he is moderator of
>of the whole internet. Have you ever heard of freedom of expression.
Assuming that was a question: Yes, most people know of the freedom of
speech. Some people doesn't approve of it, and wants to take it away
from you. These are usually fundies of one kind or another. Those
people who know about the freedom of speech are usually not, and
harbour a strong dislike for the aforsaid fundies.
>No one
>has put a gun to your head to read any material you dont want to. Just
>ignore it like most reasonable people do, if you think its manure.
You see, there are many ways to use one's freedom of speech.
Christians seem think of it as a sort of spiritual enema, enabling
them to spew their religious filth on people who have figured out what
their brain cells are for, and accordingly does not mistake their ugly
warbling for manna from heaven. When someone then decides to plug the
hole, you are in no position to complain.
>God Bless
Don't you know its impolite to bless people who doesn't want to be?
May the Raven God take you early, christoid.
...
David J. Vorous
alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox send me a nice email
requesting to be removed from the crossposting. They are
christian, but not one of them has ever tried to debate the
subject with me, not one has knocked on my door asking for
money, not one of them tries to inject their religion into our
schools or government. I think they have earned a little bit
of respect.
David J. Vorous
>
> Are you another one of these selfrigheous[sic] guys who thinks he is moderator of
> of the whole internet....
Oh, are YOU one of those self righteous morons that thinks he
the moderator of the world. It's people (and I use that term
loosely)like you that make religion look bad. Not that it
needs any help, but you just confirm it.
David J. Vorous
>
> That is called corrupt fruit, but even Islam has not much to say about
> Baha'ism or 8 other islamic cults or breakaways from their main rekigion..GF
>
> 36- CORRUPT RELIGIONS
They're all corrupt, even yours.
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.
>
> Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A. wrote:
> > David J. Vorous wrote:
> >
> >>learner wrote:
> >>
> >>>...
> >>>Sure. Paul came on the scene after Jesus. Paul brought revelations
> >>>from God in the form of the Epistles.
> >>
> >>"Paul" didn't write most of them. And it wasn't from any god.
> >>It was either mushrooms, or temporal lobe epilepsy.
> >
> >
> > Delirium Tremens. Pink elephants.
>
> Or just naturally psychotic.
Or a shitbird drunk, as rumor has it.
The Scarlet Pumpernickel
george....@ntlworld.com
> yowie at yo...@apocolocyntosis.org wrote on 10/1/03 7:33 am:
>
> > In alt.flame.jesus.christ, The Scarlet Pumpernickel wrote...
> >
> >
> >>> Dont you think you are being a little selfrighteous David. Indeed, AA has
> >>> helped me over the past 29 years to find God and keep sober and lead a very
> >>> successful life as an artist and an author.
> >>
> >> I just know I'm going to hate myself for asking this question,
> >> but... what have you written?
> >
> > http://www.bahai.org.uk/uk_review/prev_iss/2/p4.htm
> >
> > http://www.miracles.win-uk.net/BahaiArtGallery/HTML/GeorgeFleming/Artist.html
>
> With regards the person who put these websites of my artwork- (Short
> Biography) and writing history on this thread. I wish to say I have no
> means of control over These websites as I did not install them myself. They
> were constructed whilst I was a member of the Baha'i Faith and I have no
> means of deleting them now.
>
Looks like you've written nothing except whiny letters to come
cult.
Apparently your "successful life as an author" consists of not
writing anything.
The Scarlet Pumpernickel
george....@ntlworld.com
george.fleming2
da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 11/1/03 3:47 am:
> george.fleming2 wrote:
>>
>> That is called corrupt fruit, but even Islam has not much to say about
>> Baha'ism or 8 other islamic cults or breakaways from their main rekigion..GF
>>
>> 36- CORRUPT RELIGIONS
>
> They're all corrupt, even yours.
And what may I ask do you think mine is? Its obvious you have not read any
of the posts properly to find out..............................GF
george.fleming2
at bu...@hotcross.com wrote on 11/1/03 8:02 am:
I must admit, Visual art would be my first vocation, and I have only had one
book (biography of a WW2 submarine VC hero) published (which took three
years to research) so in that sense I dont declare myself a first rate top
rate author. My writing interests are secondary and were more out of
Maritine naval history having served over 20 years at sea myself, prior to
taking up art.
Pray tell me seeing you were the one who sought out the above art websites,
would you be kind enough to let the newsgroups know what books of (something
compared to my nothing) you have written and had published. Hows about
coming out from behind your mask and letting us all know What great works
of literature "The Scarlet Pumpernickel has written................GF
george.fleming2
onand...@cs.com wrote on 10/1/03 11:54 pm:
Hi Don,
I used to think the statement about "Progressive Revelation" the "oneness
and divinity of all faiths" was nice (and interfaith like) until I found
out the Baha''i Faith does not dismiss older religions as wrong. Instead it
believes all older religions are anachronistic (or past their sell by date)
and the Baha'i faith believes they all should shut up shop and join this new
religion, because the Baha'is have the copyright from GOD for this day, age
and the next 1000 years which they call the formative age. Sometime between
1000 years and 500,000 years Baha'is believe another Revelation (the Golden
Age) will begin with another Return of Christ. But today Baha'i believe
they are the only religion who have a contract (spirtual copyright) to
represent God.
The contract (spirtual copyright) to represent God has run out, is over, is
kaput, finished, expended, for all other religions according to Baha'is. In
this present day Baha'is believe they, and only they, represent God.
Unfortunately all other religions dont believe or agree with the Baha'is and
its going to take one hell of a lot of convincing to make them ever believe.
GF
Rev Stone
says...
Did he really call that shit "art?" [looks again] LOL
Rev Stone
@ntlworld.com says...
> in article 3E1F93BF...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 11/1/03 3:47 am:
>
> > george.fleming2 wrote:
> >>
> >> That is called corrupt fruit, but even Islam has not much to say about
> >> Baha'ism or 8 other islamic cults or breakaways from their main rekigion..GF
> >>
> >> 36- CORRUPT RELIGIONS
> >
> > They're all corrupt, even yours.
>
> And what may I ask do you think mine is?
Oh, I get it, all religions are corrupt *except* yours... Right?
Rev Stone
@ntlworld.com says...
> > Looks like you've written nothing except whiny letters to come
> > cult. Apparently your "successful life as an author" consists of not
> > writing anything.
>
> I must admit, Visual art would be my first vocation
Hmm. Too bad your "visual art" sucks mud.
Rev Stone
@ntlworld.com says...
> Unfortunately all other religions dont believe or agree with the Baha'is and
> its going to take one hell of a lot of convincing to make them ever believe.
Tip: If you think everybody else has a problem, then perhaps YOU are the
problem. (Not extrapolate that to the whole Baha'i thing.)
george.fleming2
cha...@church.upstairs wrote on 11/1/03 2:31 pm:
Dear Rev Stone please ask the Good lord to forgive you for using such
silverytounged language. I am sure you congregation would not approve.
The Good lord give us a wonderful array of colours from the rainbow, each of
us free to rearrange them with paintbrush and pallet according to our own
pleasure. Unfortunately some of us just see our world in black and white.
God Bless
George
David J. Vorous
> ....
> And what may I ask do you think mine is? Its obvious you have not read any
> of the posts properly to find out....
I've read enough of your posts to figure out the rest aren't
worth reading.
David J. Vorous
> ....
> Oh, I get it, all religions are corrupt *except* yours... Right?
Gee, I've never heard that idea before......
</sarcasm>
george.fleming2
da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 11/1/03 6:39 pm:
> george.fleming2 wrote:
>> ....
>> And what may I ask do you think mine is? Its obvious you have not read any
>> of the posts properly to find out....
>
> I've read enough of your posts to figure out the rest aren't
> worth reading.
Well you must still be attracted otherwise you would never have answered my
last post. Here is an interesting read, thats if you have interest in
religious apologists....................................GF
http://bahai-library.org/reviews/maceoin.mtcs.html#14
Making the Crooked Straight
A Contribution to Bahá'í Apologetics
Author: Udo Schaefer, Nicola Towfigh, and Ulrich Gollmer
trans. from German by Dr. Geraldine Schuckelt
originally published as Desinformation als Methode (Georg Olms Verlag GmbH,
1995)
Published by: George Ronald, 2000
Review by Denis MacEoin, posted on H-Bahai, 2001
"I ask myself, when have I ever had to trudge through such a dreary text or
plough my path through so many heavy-handed footnotes, and all to such
little purpose? I have read worse books: the medieval English biography of
Margory Kempe springs limply to mind, but seldom have I met anything quite
as indigestible, as pompous, or as grad-grindish as this".
David J. Vorous
> in article 3E2064EC...@thellamaranch.com, David J. Vorous at
> da...@thellamaranch.com wrote on 11/1/03 6:39 pm:
>
>
>>george.fleming2 wrote:
>>
>>>....
>>>And what may I ask do you think mine is? Its obvious you have not read any
>>>of the posts properly to find out....
>>
>>I've read enough of your posts to figure out the rest aren't
>>worth reading.
>
>
> Well you must still be attracted otherwise
It's the same response one would have while passing a bad car
accident on the highway.
george.fleming2
yowie at yo...@apocolocyntosis.org wrote on 11/1/03 9:59 pm:
> In alt.flame.jesus.christ, george.fleming2 wrote...
>
>> Are you another one of these selfrigheous guys who thinks he is moderator of
>> of the whole internet. Have you ever heard of freedom of expression. No one
>> has put a gun to your head to read any material you dont want to. Just
>> ignore it like most reasonable people do, if you think its manure.
>
> You're free to post your nonsense - I'm free to call it manure.
>
> What are you complaining about?
I aint complaining, in fact you are doing exactly what I am hoping people
will do. That is call the Baha'i faith manure, because I told them to stuff
it some months back. Keep up the good work Jesus.
By the way have you any good water boots for sale, the Baha'is have all
holes in theirs....................GF
george.fleming2
yowie at yo...@apocolocyntosis.org wrote on 11/1/03 10:09 pm:
> In alt.flame.jesus.christ, george.fleming2 wrote...
>
> And we are free to laugh at your results.
>
>> Unfortunately some of us just see our world in black and white.
>
> Or any two colours that don't look well together.
> http://tigtail.org/L_View/TVM/B/NAmerican/b.%20post%20WW%20II/rothko/X/rothko_
> unknown_2.jpg
>
Yeah, through the eyes of someone who does not understand plasticity in
picture plane visual art. But through the eyes of Mark Rothko and those who
understand "Abstract Expressionism" He used colour to seek out spirtuality.
His use of colours that dont match is the essence of plasticity....GF
The Clouded Glass
John Haber
in New York City
Mark Rothko: A Retrospective
I did not go to the Rothko Chapel to pray. Surrounded by black canvas in a
hushed room, could I hope for a reflection of myself or of God? I could not
safely turn from a painting to contemplate something else, not even
something in me. Put away talk of pure plasticity and the sublime's cosmic
drama. I had entered a place where I could live for a while with myself.
Mark Rothko created that special place, and I entered it again this summer.
I do not mean the building I had once visited in Houston. I mean the place
one enters again at his retrospective in Washington. As I left this summer's
show, I thought back with a shock on what the age of big-time museums takes
for granted. I had forgotten how art can darken the world's mirrors to let
in a stronger light.
Critics have compared that light to the harsh northern sun. They have
recalled the grand aspirations of the nineteenth-century sublime. Perhaps,
but Rothko offers something more down to earth. A Romantic mirror of the
eternal seems far away. These paintings hold out a darker, far more palpable
kind of mirror, the clouded glass of everyday perception.
Resting on a twisted ground
Rev Stone
@ntlworld.com says...
> > Or any two colours that don't look well together.
> > http://tigtail.org/L_View/TVM/B/NAmerican/b.%20post%20WW%20II/rothko/X/rothko_
> > unknown_2.jpg
> >
Looks more like the essence of somebody without any talent.
george.fleming2
pod...@church.of.hell wrote on 12/1/03 12:56 am:
Everyone is intitled to their opinion. But Mark Rothko is one of America and
the worlds very famous "Abstract Expressionist" painters, whose canvases
hang on the walls of numerous famous art museum/galleries around the world.
David J. Vorous
> ....
> I aint complaining, in fact you are doing exactly what I am hoping people
Based on what we've seen you post here, you are spreading far
more manure than any religion could hope to.
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.
Show us the paper.
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.
>
> in article l1512vk0a85lakicm...@news.apocolocyntosis.org,
> yowie at yo...@apocolocyntosis.org wrote on 11/1/03 10:09 pm:
>
> > In alt.flame.jesus.christ, george.fleming2 wrote...
> >
> >> in article MPG.1889f4bf8...@news.alt.net, Rev Stone at
> >> cha...@church.upstairs wrote on 11/1/03 2:31 pm:
> >>
> >>> In article <MPG.18899b1bc...@news.alt.net>, bu...@hotcross.com
> >>> says...
> >>>> In article <BA443252.BD22%george....@ntlworld.com>,
> >>>> george....@ntlworld.com
> >>>>> in article 4hts1vsjb0beigt39...@news.apocolocyntosis.org,
> >>>>> yowie at yo...@apocolocyntosis.org wrote on 10/1/03 7:33 am:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> In alt.flame.jesus.christ, The Scarlet Pumpernickel wrote...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Dont you think you are being a little selfrighteous David. Indeed, AA
> >>>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>>> helped me over the past 29 years to find God and keep sober and lead a
> >>>>>>>> very
> >>>>>>>> successful life as an artist and an author.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I just know I'm going to hate myself for asking this question,
> >>>>>>> but... what have you written?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.bahai.org.uk/uk_review/prev_iss/2/p4.htm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.miracles.win-uk.net/BahaiArtGallery/HTML/GeorgeFleming/Artist
Fuck Rothko.
http://www.lambiek.net/artists/wilson/wilson1.gif
george.fleming2
cdub@_REMOVETHIS_erols.com wrote on 12/1/03 7:02 am:
TThe prophesy of "Progressive Revelation" is in this book called the
Kitab-I-Iqan or The Book of Cetitiude.
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A.
But no signed contracts, complete with attornies and third party witnesses?
Nothing notarized?
george.fleming2
yowie at yo...@apocolocyntosis.org wrote on 12/1/03 7:25 am:
> In alt.flame.jesus.christ, george.fleming2 wrote...
>
> [rothko]
>
>>>> His use of colours that dont match is the essence of plasticity....GF
>>> Looks more like the essence of somebody without any talent.
>
>> Everyone is intitled to their opinion. But Mark Rothko is one of America and
>> the worlds very famous "Abstract Expressionist" painters, whose canvases
>> hang on the walls of numerous famous art museum/galleries around the world.
>
> Yeah. Paid for from public funds in many cases. The National Gallery in
> Canberra has a 'painting' by Rothko. It's an 8'x8' canvas painted black.
>
> That isn't art, it's fraud.
Every American Major Cities Galleries are proud to own a Rothko. The guy was
ahead of his time in spirtual abstract art................GF
in article 4h322vgv53sv9jcpo...@news.apocolocyntosis.org,
yowie at yo...@apocolocyntosis.org wrote on 12/1/03 7:25 am:
> Rothko.
Plate 19
Plate 19
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=saucyjack.phys.columbia.edu/sjk/catal
og/rothko_untitled1965.jpg&imgrefurl=http://saucyjack.phys.columbia.edu/sjk/
node32.html&h=640&w=368&prev=/images%3Fq%3DMark%2BRothko.%26start%3D60%26svn
um%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN
* Mark Rothko (American)
* Untitled (South Entrance-Wall Painting), 1965
* oil on canvas
* 180 x 105 inches (457.2 x 266.7 cm)
* Rothko Chapel, Houston, Texas
* Courtesy of the Menil Collection
The Rothko Chapel is a modern sanctuary open to all traditions. The Chapel
was donated as a gift from Dominique and John de Menil, who were principal
benefactors of the University of St. Thomas in Houston, Tx. They recruited
Philip Johnson, one of the luminaries of American architecture of the
postwar period, as the architect and suggested that Mark Rothko execute a
set of paintings for the interior (see figure 6.8). The project would become
one of the century's most ambitious ventures in the integration of
architecture and painting.
Most of the obvious features through which paintings have traditionally
excited the imaginations and interest of the viewer are absent. Not only is
there no recognizable imagery of the conventionally representational sort,
but few of the devices that even in ``abstract'' painting familiarly serve
to involve the viewer are present. The work seems to afford no point of
imaginative entry; instead the frustrated viewer is thrown back upon him or
herself. But neither is there any easy retreat. The layout of the Chapel was
carefully designed, and on every wall there is either an imposing triptych
or a single panel (e.g. this Plate) in the solid dark purple Rothko favored
as the overall color of this commission. The imposing scale and somber,
ceremonial gravity of the paintings seem to demand an appropriate response.
Surrounded by them, the viewer is the target of their relentless frontality
of address, confronted wherever he or she may turn, so that there is no hope
of evasion. He made the dark painting of the chapel into vehicles of light,
a way to access God in one's own way, through silence.
Table 19: Mark Rothko, Untitled
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next: Glossary of Terms Up: Catalogue of Works Previous: Plate 18 Contents
Sonja Klein, September 2000
>
george.fleming2
cdub@_REMOVETHIS_erols.com wrote on 12/1/03 10:34 am:
I agree, Poorly written by western standards. But Baha'i s believe it is the
word of God, same as some Christians believe all the Bible is without error.
The Muslims are not very happy about the Baha'i Faith either....GF
- CORRUPT RELIGIONS
This chapter deals with nine irreligious cults, which are actually
disfigured forms of ancient heavenly religions:
http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Endless_Bliss_Second_Fascicle/bliss2-36.htm
Rev Stone
@ntlworld.com says...
> in article MPG.188a87514...@news.alt.net, Rev Stone at
> pod...@church.of.hell wrote on 12/1/03 12:56 am:
>
> > In article <BA466934.C1B2%george....@ntlworld.com>, george.fleming2
> > @ntlworld.com says...
> >>> Or any two colours that don't look well together.
> >>> http://tigtail.org/L_View/TVM/B/NAmerican/b.%20post%20WW%20II/rothko/X/rothk
> >>> o_
> >>> unknown_2.jpg
> >>>
> >> His use of colours that dont match is the essence of plasticity....GF
> >
> > Looks more like the essence of somebody without any talent.
>
> Everyone is intitled to their opinion. But Mark Rothko is one of America and
> the worlds very famous "Abstract Expressionist" painters,
Famous, huh? I think I've heard/seen his name a total of maybe four
times, and at least three of them happened in this thread.
> whose canvases
> hang on the walls of numerous famous art museum/galleries around the world.
That means exactly fuck all.
Rev Stone
@news.apocolocyntosis.org>, yo...@apocolocyntosis.org says...
> In alt.flame.jesus.christ, george.fleming2 wrote...
>
> [rothko]
>
> >> Looks more like the essence of somebody without any talent.
>
> >Everyone is intitled to their opinion. But Mark Rothko is one of America and
> >the worlds very famous "Abstract Expressionist" painters, whose canvases
> >hang on the walls of numerous famous art museum/galleries around the world.
>
> Canberra has a 'painting' by Rothko. It's an 8'x8' canvas painted black.
>
> That isn't art, it's fraud.
So if you want Rothko to paint a picture for you, he's basically just
going to coat the canvas with one or two primary colors -- or perhaps
*three* colors if he really goes wild? Just exactly why is this
considered more artistic than, say, the result of having a retarded
monkey splatter paint on canvas?
Maeljin
john_wea...@yahoo.com screams...
> On 9 Jan 2003 11:25:52 -0800, wildbl...@hotmail.com (bluskie)
> wrote:
>
> >"george.fleming2" <george....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<BA431274.BB74%george....@ntlworld.com>...
> >> Will these forgotten People of the Book, followers of John the Baptist
> >> called the Sabaean sect who all live in Southern Iraq fight for Saddam or
> >> against him when the USA attacks Iraq?.....GF
> >>
> >>
> >If they fight, they will die too.
>
> At least if they are truly born again, they will go to heaven!
>
then by all means throw yourself from a cliff!
--
|-Maeljin-|
(Damned by Dore, Primo in Italia)
"It's clear that in this group [AFJC], ANY religious comment of any
seriousness is treated as a complete joke." -KK
UDP for WebTv
Maeljin
>
> Christians have been airbrushed out of history all through the
> centuries since the Romans fed the Christians to the lions. Mother
> Rome is STILL erasing non-Catholic Christians, as became VERY evident
> last year (or so) when Mexican (read Roman Catholic) police executed
> several Baptist missionaries in Mexico for the crime of evangelizing
> Roman Catholics in a Roman Catholic police state.
>
You forgot logic somewhere in your backyard.
Maeljin
john_wea...@yahoo.com screams...
> On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 22:32:46 -0800, "David J. Vorous"
> <da...@thellamaranch.com> wrote:
>
> >John W wrote:
> >> ....Letterman profaned God half-a-dozen times in a 5-minute
> >monolog....
> >
> >Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
>
> In your totally useless opinion, perhaps. Bear in mind, also, that as
> you deny Him, He denies you!
He can't deny anything, in account of having no perception... he doesn't
exist.
> Hundreds of millions of Christians who have EXPERIENCED Christ and
> conversion would argue that He DOES exist, and you can't prove
> otherwise!
Your christ is totally baffled by the volume of decibels his dilapidated
rear end produces every time you pray.
> And the spiritual gifts we born again Christians ALL receive prove
> you wrong, to say nothing of fulfilled prophesy even today!
Like what? Immunity to poison? Go and drink some Stanthome cleaner, and
then get back to tell us.
Maeljin
john_wea...@yahoo.com screams...
> On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:17:39 +0000, "george.fleming2"
> <george....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >in article a9dd1b95.03010...@posting.google.com, bluskie at
> >wildbl...@hotmail.com wrote on 9/1/03 7:25 pm:
> >
> >> "george.fleming2" <george....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> >> news:<BA431274.BB74%george....@ntlworld.com>...
> >>> Will these forgotten People of the Book, followers of John the Baptist
> >>> called the Sabaean sect who all live in Southern Iraq fight for Saddam or
> >>> against him when the USA attacks Iraq?.....GF
> >>>
> >>>
> >> If they fight, they will die too.
> >
> >the language Jesus spoke. If they are all wiped out a whole language from
> >Christ's time will be wiped out by the US and the Brits...........GF
>
> By WHOM? I think you meant to say by Saddam. We didn't start this war.
> We are OBLIGATED to defend our nation!
What a subtle grasp of international politics!
> Would you prefer we become
> Iraqis and cover our women head to toe in burkas?ù
Non sequitur. Besides, it's not the Iraquis doing it, but the Muslim
fundamentalists.
> The Saddam / Al
> Quaida connection is clear. And he obviously isn't going to stop; he
> must BE stopped.
>
And once you have "stopped" him, who will you put in his place?
Gosh, you did put HIM there in the first place! Does this activate some
of your neurons?