Blitz attack

[Burton W. Phelps]

Can anyone describe the blitz attack.

[The Rev. Wiz]

Actually, Burton is an intelligent man. When I first read the question, I
thought, "Uh oh, Burton's got ya again." His question is a very valid one.
While the term blitz attack was used in the past, I am unaware of any
juristiction using it to this day. Some of the older gentlemen that I know
use to say that a blitz attack is when you pull up, break out the window to
where the fire was and deck gun it. Now, I can understand how you could
have called it that and some may have done that tactic in the past, but does
anybody do it to this day? Does anyone else have a definition for it 'cause
I sure don't. I'm curious to see where Burton is taking this.

Regards,

Glenn Wisbey
City of Annapolis FF, L-1926
WAVFD member, AACO, MD
MFRI Instructor

[Eldridge]

This question is coming from a man who told all of us what could/did go
wrong in Houston?????

I guess the more you write the more you prove yourself an a idiot!!!!

Burton W. Phelps <inc...@crosslink.net> wrote in article
<95194342...@pizza.crosslink.net>...

[FiRsqDvr45]

I thought he was familiar.
Jay Ellingson
FF-2/EMT-B
Newington,NH FD

My views are not the views of the Newington, NH FD, they are strictly my own.

[John Smith]

"Burton W. Phelps" wrote:
>
> Can anyone describe the blitz attack.
>

I've always understood a blitz attack to be a quick (seconds) hit with a
large gpm device to knock the fire down, then moving in with handlines
to mop up.

This could be with either a deluge/deck gun, or a pre-connnected "bomb
line" ie: 3" supplied portable deluge/stinger, or a 2½" pre-connect for
something you would typically pull a 1½" on.

Kinda like a blitzkreig- hit 'em fast & hard with the big tanks & planes
then follow up with infantry to finish them off- which I guess is where
the term came from.

John

[Rick Sieboldt]

A "Blitz Attack" is how you stated. In 28 years I have never used it. About
the only time I could see using it would be if you have a store front fully
involved with apartments upstairs and people trapped. This would be a quick
down BUT you had better have a water supply right behind you or you are
useless after you dump your tank.

______________________

Rick Sieboldt
28 Yrs. Vollie FF/EMT-B
Ex-Asst. Chief
Long Island, N.Y.
lid...@ix.netcom.com

_______________________

"The Rev. Wiz" <glenn...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:89klrj$iv3$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...

[Burton W. Phelps]

I know what it is, you apparently don't.

Eldridge <ldr...@landmarknet.net> wrote in message
news:01bf83e4$04e28740$24784b3f@user...

> This question is coming from a man who told all of us what could/did go
> wrong in Houston?????
>
> I guess the more you write the more you prove yourself an a idiot!!!!
>
>
> Burton W. Phelps <inc...@crosslink.net> wrote in article
> <95194342...@pizza.crosslink.net>...

[Burton W. Phelps]

Very good Rev. and John.

More to follow!

John Smith <jsm...@dpnet.net> wrote in message
news:38BE0A8D...@dpnet.net...

>
> "Burton W. Phelps" wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone describe the blitz attack.
> >
>

[FiRsqDvr45]

Lets stop the childish stuff, please.

My brain conjures up this definition for some reason:

Blitz Attack: a rapid attack utilizing tank water from one or more handlines
and/or master streams to attempt to halt, extinguish or slow a volume of fire
that threatens to impinge upon another structure, compartment or endanger lives
with out the benifit of a charged hydrant feeder?

[John Moran]

Please explain the term "bomb line" in more detail.

John Moran

[Burton W. Phelps]

Very good Jay,

My best recollection is that blitz attack is more confined to master streams
than handlines. The importance of the blitz attack from an engine without a
water supply at the time of the blitz is important.

More to come!!

FiRsqDvr45 <firsq...@aol.comspambytz> wrote in message
news:20000302103638...@ng-cg1.aol.com...

[Allan]

FiRsqDvr45 wrote:

> Lets stop the childish stuff, please.
>
> My brain conjures up this definition for some reason:
>
> Blitz Attack: a rapid attack utilizing tank water from one or more handlines
> and/or master streams to attempt to halt, extinguish or slow a volume of fire
> that threatens to impinge upon another structure, compartment or endanger lives
> with out the benifit of a charged hydrant feeder?
> Jay Ellingson
> FF-2/EMT-B
> Newington,NH FD
>
> My views are not the views of the Newington, NH FD, they are strictly my

> own.gfgdgd

The knock-down of a fire through quick application of a master stream taking water
from the booster tank of the pumper.

Of course this only gives you 3 to 5 minutes of full flow but you gamble that you
can get ahead of the BTU curve of the fire.

Allan Johnson WCFD
--
to reply replace elkhound with com in email address

[Burton W. Phelps]

Nice answer Allan.

Allan <al...@magi.com> wrote in message news:38BECC03...@magi.com...

[Jamie Turner]

When I learned the craft. Blitz attack is defined as using large caliber
streams, i. e., 2 1/2" hose lines with a stack or combination fog or a
master stream device, depending upon conditions and decisions by the
Incident Manager

[Tom Jacobs]

In article <95194342...@pizza.crosslink.net>, "Burton W. Phelps"
<inc...@crosslink.net> writes:

>Can anyone describe the blitz attack.

We called our preconnected 2 1/2" line off the back step
the blitz line. I have also heard the term used to call
for a deck gun application.

Tom Jacobs
Assistant Chief
Dolton, IL FD

[Tom Jacobs]

In article <01bf83e4$04e28740$24784b3f@user>, "Eldridge"
<ldr...@landmarknet.net> writes:

>I guess the more you write the more you prove yourself an a idiot!!!!

I think we now know the true idiot...

[HosHumper]

We also carry a 2 1/2" preconnect called the "blitz" line, but it is used
mainly in two ways. 1. the quick attack off tank water in order to try and
darken down the fire while you obtain a water supply (we use a tanker shuttle)
and 2. used to backup the 1 3/4" preconnect line if it becomes overwhelmed.

Wayne Newcomb
President
Great Falls VA VFD

[Burton W. Phelps]

Wayne,

Most companies with low staffing (2-4 on an engine) would be better off
going with a master stream to get a high volume of water on a fire early. A
two-inlet master stream that flows about 300 gpm from a single 2 1/2 inch
line and up to 600 gpm with two 2 1/2 inch lines requires considerably less
personnel to deliver a good quantity of water. We have done this many times
with tank water before we had a supply. Of course, you should get a knock
down quickly and then shut down the master stream and go at it with
handlines.

HosHumper <hosh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000315002241...@ng-cl1.aol.com...

[Burton W. Phelps]

The blitz attack is for fires requiring high fire flows.  If you have a 1 3/4 inch handline fire then use it.  If the fire flow required is well over the flow from a 1 3/4 inch, then this size line will NOT put the fire out.  You must meet the needs of the fire, no matter the consequemces to put it out.  A fire requiring a 2 1/2 inch line or a master stream quantity of water to extinguish the fire has already done major damage to the structure.  A three person company can deliver a larger quantity of water with a master stream, than it could possible deliver with a 2 1/2 inch handline.

 

 

Bob Southwick <bsout...@interfacefire.com> wrote in message news:38D82224...@interfacefire.com...

Wayne

Are you using your 2 1/2" as an interior attack line on your initial entry before establishing a water supply?

What size booster tank do you have on your engines.... seems like you could empty a tank really fast, not to mention create excessive water damage.

Bob

[George H. Drum III]

Bob Southwick wrote:

> I missed the first post in this thread so dont know exactly what
> scenario you guys are referring to, but,
> Short of an exterior attack, industrial, commercial size fire I can't
> imagine using 1 2 1/2 much less 2 on an initial attack.

No flame intended...line size should be determined by the actual
volume of fire encountered, manpower available to maneuver it, the
potential for fire spread, the building construction, and the occupancy
type.
Since you missed the first post, I'll bring you up to speed. Strip
mall, common attic, wood beam flat roof assembly, fire in 25-50% of one
occupancy. The discussion of blitzing the fire, (hitting it with deck
gun), came about as a fast means to darken down the fire to allow crews
to stop the attic spread.

> I have seen the deck gun/master stream attack attempted several times
> over the years on single family structures and usually what happens is
> your tank is empty by the time you fill your lines and put about a
> minutes worth of stream on the fire.

Whereas I've seen it used effectively on garage fires in Type-V
construction to great effect. Stang it and follow up with the handline
through the front door.
Also, the tactic is directly dependent on your ability to obtain a
fast adequate supply. So, three man engine. Take the plug, Engineer
pump, Captain stang it. Plug man pull the handline, Captain joins him
at the door.
A smooth bore nozzle is going to do very little pushing of the
fire. It will move some steam and products of combustion in the
subsequent expansion. It will put a lot of water directly onto the seat
of the fire in less than one minute. It will probably delay handline
deployment by one minute, maybe two.

> Most cases an agressive interior fast attack will black the fire with
> a hell of a lot less water when applied close and on the seat instead
> of trying to drown it from a distance.

I agree with you. However, in the example given, blitzing the fire
while your crews stop extension with the handline seems a much better
choice to me.

> We run 3 man engines, RIT has been a factor lately of course, instead
> of making things safer the delay usually allows the fire to build and
> you have more fire to fight, more structural damage either from fire
> or water and ultimately greater risk to the interior crews.

Agreed. I wish, instead of legislating safety, the fire service
would concentrate more on education and awareness.

Respectfully,
Lt./CEP George H. Drum III
Speaking for himself and NOT the Scottsdale, RMFD.

[Burton W. Phelps]

The blitz attack is usually considered a master stream attack, not a 2 1/2" line.  The strip center described had a required fire flow of about 600 gpm to extinguish it.  This is a master stream fire.  A 2 1/2" in useless and will do very little in this situation.  A smooth-bore nozzle should be used so as not to push the fire.

 

Also, if you through 600 gpm at the fire and it doesn't go out because it is too big, just what use is a smaller flow????

Bob Southwick <bsout...@interfacefire.com> wrote in message news:38DCE628...@interfacefire.com...

"George H. Drum III" wrote:

Bob Southwick wrote:

> I missed the first post in this thread so dont know exactly what
> scenario you guys are referring to,

Since you missed the first post, I'll bring you up to speed.  Strip

mall, common attic, wood beam flat roof assembly, fire in 25-50% of one
occupancy.  The discussion of blitzing the fire, (hitting it with deck
gun), came about as a fast means to darken down the fire to allow crews
to stop the attic spread.
 

I see, yes, that is what we call a 2 1/2 inch fire.  And it is likely we would start with a 2 1/2 working line.
I know every locale has different needs.
I was just imagining arriving at a single family to four plex and starting with a 2 1/2.....  as a matter of course.

Thanks for the clarification.

 the tactic is directly dependent on your ability to obtain a
fast adequate supply.

Definitely...
otherwise you've shot your load and are standing around waiting while the fire gets a chance to rebuild.

 

A smooth bore nozzle is going to do very little pushing of the
fire.  It will move some steam and products of combustion in the
subsequent expansion.  It will put a lot of water directly onto the seat
of the fire in less than one minute.  It will probably delay handline
deployment by one minute, maybe two.

As long as you can reach the seat without too many obstructions.  One of the worst uses I witnessed was the first in was not able to directly hit the seat and ran out before we (second in) arrived... the fire had gained significant advantage by this time.

Thanks for filling me in.

Bob Safe

Bob Southwick
http://www.unionfirefighters.net