Molly Ivins YES
Marian
that bridge...What a hoot. Marian<G>
IVINS: Working for Nothing~Molly Ivins, AlterNet~June 5, 2003
AUSTIN, Texas -- "I said you were a man of peace. I want you to know I took
immense crap for that." George W. Bush, diplomat extraordinaire, to Ariel
Sharon, The Washington Post, June 3, 2003.
The effort to find peace in the Middle East is something on which all Americans
can support the president, whether we think he knows what he's doing or not. He
has recently been getting some criticism for letting his religious beliefs into
the process. According to the New Yorker, he told Prince Abdullah of Saudi
Arabia: "I think God loves me. I think God loves the Palestinians. I think God
loves the Israelis. We cannot allow this to continue." This is good news: It
seems to me Bush's attention span is longer and more focused when his religious
convictions are involved.
But I was pleased to see that the Stagecraft Administration has already set up
the "money shot" for this peace conference, whether any progress is made or
not. The New York Times reports the Big Photo-Op is ready to go. The president
and the two prime ministers are to appear together on a bridge over the
swimming pool behind the King of Jordan's palace.
"White House operatives had the Jordanians build a bridge over the pool,
officials said, so that the leaders could walk over the water, side by side,
toward the massed cameras. When the first bridge proved too narrow for more
than one man to cross at once, the Americans had the Jordanians tear it down
and start over, officials said."
This is the kind of attention to detail that got that aircraft carrier turned
around so when Bush landed on it, we couldn't see San Diego in the background.
Some details are more important than others in this administration.
The Post quotes a (naturally) unnamed official saying of Bush, "He does not
have the knowledge or the patience to learn this issue enough to have an end
destination in mind." Here's a photo-op idea. If Bush does arrange a lasting
peace between Israel and Palestine -- and I am rooting for him -- the White
House could take down the bridge yet again and have all three of them walk on
the water.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, it is hard to keep up with how much damage is
being done. Tom (the Exterminator) DeLay, House majority leader, says the 6.5
million working people who got cut out of the tax cut at the last minute are
S.O.L. No reconsideration will be allowed -- unless he gets MORE tax cuts for
the rich! I love it: These people have no shame.
The House will take up getting rid of the 40-hour workweek on June 5. They have
their priorities, and repealing the Fair Labor Standards Act -- in place since
the 1930s -- is one of them. In one of those annoying little Republican
exercises in cheap misdirection, this particular bill to screw workers is
misleadingly titled the Family Time Flexibility Act.
Cute, eh? As though they were doing you a big favor. The only enforcement
mechanism in the 40-hour work week is that employers have to pay
time-and-a-half if they make you work more than 40 hours. Under this charmer,
if you work overtime, your employer can pay you with straight comp time, one
hour for one hour, instead of time-and-a-half wages, thus saving the
corporations millions.
Let us count the number of ways this is a truly El Stinko idea. If your
employer doesn't have to pay you any extra for working overtime, why shouldn't
he/she work you 'til you drop? Lots of families depend on overtime pay just to
make it through the month. There've been times I would've a lot rather had time
than money for overtime, but I want that to be my choice, not my boss's.
This son of a gun is a job-killer. If an employer can overwork the people he's
got now without paying extra, why would he hire additional employees? It's bad
for the economy. This doesn't "give" workers flexibility, it takes away their
right to get time-and-a-half.
People, I mentioned the other day that it takes more than singing "I'm Proud to
Be an American" to keep this country free. This is not an abstract,
constitutional right. This is about you getting screwed. If y'all can't stand
up for yourselves on this one, and raise hell with your congresspeople, you
deserve to work overtime without extra pay.
All over this country, working people are losing out. We've lost 2.7 million
jobs, health insurance is going up like a rocket, salaries are shrinking, and
wait'll you see what they're fixing to do to your pension. If y'all don't speak
up now instead of griping later, the fat-cat lobbyists for big business are
going to push this right through. Don't say no one warned you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
© 2003 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
*****************************************************************
Political Cartoons ~ Updated Thursday, June 5 ~
http://www.PictureTrail.com/gid1209821&pathID=175315
DAE
Not happy when you can't stir up some crap are you. You've run some good
folks off of this Group due to your insistence on always making everything
Political and anti-Bush. You have to cut and paste these obvious
"Bushwhacker's" comments just to stir the pot. In case you haven't noticed
some folks have tried hard to turn this into what it once was, a friendly
Group. You and your friends like Baba and now Sinclair and anyone else that
agrees with your pathetic form of hatred just keeps your flame alive. I
read a description of your daily routine and it sounded like you lived in
the newsroom of an underground newspaper. Radio's on the NPR station, TV on
CNN, computer on the NYT losers and "Bushwhacker" Molly Ivins " who tells it
like she sees it".
I've said it before and I'll say it again, take your little fellow three
counties over and go to a group that would appreciate your total lack of
talent and patriotism and maybe you can really be with your own. Nothing I
can say to you will bother you I know because you are totally numb between
the ears. You are going to be one much more miserable person when Bush wins
the next term. With what the competition is going with it is a lead pipe
cinch that it will happen. Maybe that will then have you consider moving to
France or fleeing to Canada like you said you would have with your Son
during "Desert Storm" to escape the draft. Only problem is the draft was
ended in 1973:-)) That shows you loyalty to the United States. Oh, the
"Desert Storm" operation was in 1990 and 1991. Just thought I would let you
know as you seem to forget some things.
Have a good day loser.
Don and his Devil
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030605200349...@mb-m05.aol.com...
JD Cooper
person.
I thought it interesting earlier today that Sinclair had the incoherence
of thought to describe you as a "left of center thinker"
Truth is that you do not think and are incapable of thinking. In your
own words you have stated as much when you have typed. "(Molly Ivans)
speaks for me~word for word."
You have yet to speak, "(name) speaks *to* me".
You are such a pathetic bore, same as Sinclair and now his "brother" who
has joined and I am quite certain a "ringer" as is Sinclair. I am fairly
certain who is their mentor, but you, Dear, are in a class all by
yourself. You are too stupid.
JD
Marian
Not so. Folk who don't want to hear a contrary opinion take themselves off.
Nothing to do with me, though I do hate this radical Bush government and what
they're doing to my country.
And you also got the facts wrong the last time you attacked me personally.
Forgetfulness isn't one of my problems...
Wrap yourself in the flag and keep your fantasies warm, Don. Boom boom.
Marian
>> Meanwhile...
Marian
Not even a bit enlightening this post, JD. Namecalling and all... My, my. If
you're not careful, you'll run off one of our tender flowers. Sinclair got it
about right. I am left-of-center, but you don't understand such subtle
distinction.
So, didn't you think it's funny that Bush's P.R. team made them build a bridge
behind the King's palace for the 3 leaders to walk over? That is not boring.
That is *very* telling...
Here it is again:
"...But I was pleased to see that the Stagecraft Administration has already set
up the "money shot" for this peace conference, whether any progress is made or
not. The New York Times reports the Big Photo-Op is ready to go. The president
and the two prime ministers are to appear together on a bridge over the
swimming pool behind the King of Jordan's palace.
"White House operatives had the Jordanians build a bridge over the pool,
officials said, so that the leaders could walk over the water, side by side,
toward the massed cameras. When the first bridge proved too narrow for more
than one man to cross at once, the Americans had the Jordanians tear it down
and start over, officials said."
This is the kind of attention to detail that got that aircraft carrier turned
around so when Bush landed on it, we couldn't see San Diego in the background.
Some details are more important than others in this administration.
The Post quotes a (naturally) unnamed official saying of Bush, "He does not
have the knowledge or the patience to learn this issue enough to have an end
destination in mind." Here's a photo-op idea. If Bush does arrange a lasting
peace between Israel and Palestine -- and I am rooting for him -- the White
House could take down the bridge yet again and have all three of them walk on
the water..."
Marian<LOL>
Marsha
point, you don't like Bush or Republicans. Why do you have to keep posting
these articles by the way they are copyrighted and I'm sure you didn't ask
permission. Can't you just post the link.
Toddy
opinions.
That goes on ad nauseam. We can learn to click on by..... or even read stuff
if it interests for a change!
I think they leave because they are sick of the bitching and name calling
that is going on in here.
Toddy
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030605225715...@mb-m26.aol.com...
KEITHP279
<mhuc...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>We know that Marian, we must hear that 20 times a day from you, we get your
>point, you don't like Bush or Republicans. Why do you have to keep posting
>these articles . . .
Because she learned well:
"No matter how skillfully propaganda is presented it will not lead to success
unless a fundamental principle is considered with continually sharp attention:
it has to confine itself to little and to repeat this eternally."
--Adolf Hitler (with Hess, Rauschning, and others) _Mein Kampf_ 1923
k
JD Cooper
>>Marian wrote: Nothing, but instead posted some thoughts of another
>>person.
>>
>>I thought it interesting earlier today that Sinclair had the incoherence
>>of thought to describe you as a "left of center thinker"
>>
>>Truth is that you do not think and are incapable of thinking. In your
>>own words you have stated as much when you have typed. "(Molly Ivans)
>>speaks for me~word for word."
>>
>>You have yet to speak, "(name) speaks *to* me".
>>
>>You are such a pathetic bore, same as Sinclair and now his "brother" who
>>has joined and I am quite certain a "ringer" as is Sinclair. I am fairly
>>certain who is their mentor, but you, Dear, are in a class all by
>>yourself. You are too stupid.
>>
>>JD
>
>
> Not even a bit enlightening this post, JD. Namecalling and all... My, my. If
> you're not careful, you'll run off one of our tender flowers. Sinclair got it
> about right. I am left-of-center, but you don't understand such subtle
> distinction.
"left od center" understood and aggreed upon. "Thinker" is the word that
does not work.
> So, didn't you think it's funny that Bush's P.R. team made them build a bridge
> behind the King's palace for the 3 leaders to walk over? That is not boring.
> That is *very* telling...
So what? Every so-called "leader" does such things? Remember when Al
Gore had some cows brought in to his property for a photo-op? These
kinds of things go across the board and are hardly noteworthy.
Nothing new under the sun.
JD
<--snip-->
Vickie
"I object! It's immaterial and an elephant!"
Y'all remind me of an ol' Marx Bros. movie...so busy name-calling and
one-upping that you didn't see something important that Molly was trying to
warn us about....
~~
"The House will take up getting rid of the 40-hour workweek on June 5. [..]
repealing the Fair Labor Standards Act -- in place since the 1930s [..] this
particular bill to screw workers is misleadingly titled the Family Time
Flexibility Act.
[..] The only enforcement mechanism in the 40-hour work week is that employers
have to pay time-and-a-half if they make you work more than 40 hours.[..] Under
this charmer if you work overtime, your employer can pay you with straight comp
time, one hour for one hour, instead of time-and-a-half wages, thus saving the
corporations millions.
[..] If your employer doesn't have to pay you any extra for working overtime,
why shouldn't he/she work you 'til you drop? Lots of families depend on
overtime pay just to make it through the month.[..]
[..] If an employer can overwork the people he's got now without paying extra,
why would he hire additional employees? It's bad for the economy. This doesn't
"give" workers flexibility, it takes away their right to get time-and-a-half.
People, I mentioned the other day that it takes more than singing "I'm Proud to
Be an American" to keep this country free. This is not an abstract,
constitutional right. This is about you getting screwed. If y'all can't stand
up for yourselves on this one, and raise hell with your congresspeople, you
deserve to work overtime without extra pay. [..] "
~~
Well, thank goodness they yanked it from yesterday's schedule after failing to
find enough votes to pass it..BUT they *will* try again. They've already vowed
to reschedule the vote. I've done all I can do -- written to my congressman,
etc.
I have several relatives who work for Goodyear and depend on overtime to make
ends meet. What good is more time off if you lose the roof over your head?
PS= More good news for the workin' stiff = "WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) -- The Senate
voted overwhelmingly Thursday to extend a $400 increase in the child tax credit
to low- and middle-income parents as well as to some married couples who make
too much under current law to qualify for the full credit. The measure passed
on a 94-2 vote."
Vickie
Clark Simmons
effort, it's a good investment. Indications are that it will.
That aircraft carrier positioning flap is another lie. The San Diego skyline
had nothing to do with it. A carrier must sail into the wind to launch or
receive landing airplanes. That was the only reason that carrier was on that
heading.
Liberals aren't stupid. They just lie when it suits their purposes.
--
Regards,
Clark, Still Free in Round Rock Texas USA
http://BlockSpamNow.com/r/21571 - Block Spam Now
http://xld.com - Freedom's Home Page
God Bless America and her friends!
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030605200349...@mb-m05.aol.com...
>
> But I was pleased to see that the Stagecraft Administration has already set up
> the "money shot" for this peace conference, whether any progress is made or
> not. The New York Times reports the Big Photo-Op is ready to go. The president
> and the two prime ministers are to appear together on a bridge over the
> swimming pool behind the King of Jordan's palace.
>
> "White House operatives had the Jordanians build a bridge over the pool,
> officials said, so that the leaders could walk over the water, side by side,
> toward the massed cameras. When the first bridge proved too narrow for more
> than one man to cross at once, the Americans had the Jordanians tear it down
> and start over, officials said."
>
>
> This is the kind of attention to detail that got that aircraft carrier turned
> around so when Bush landed on it, we couldn't see San Diego in the background.
> Some details are more important than others in this administration.
>
> >
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 6/5/2003
Clark Simmons
overtime or not. Besides it'll create lots of jobs to fill the demand for the
extra time to fulfill the demand for the work not performed.
--
Regards,
Clark, Still Free in Round Rock Texas USA
http://BlockSpamNow.com/r/21571 - Block Spam Now
http://xld.com - Freedom's Home Page
God Bless America and her friends!
"Vickie" <vbfr...@aol.comatose> wrote in message
news:20030606122159...@mb-m10.aol.com...
JD Cooper
Vickie, this kind of thing has been tried in one way or the other many,
many times in our working life. Its run up the flag pole to see who
salutes, that's all.
> I have several relatives who work for Goodyear and depend on overtime to make
> ends meet. What good is more time off if you lose the roof over your head?
No disrespect intended, but is it possible they spent more than they
could afford to spend? (credit) On the other side of that 'coin' is some
folks who work more, or have a second job, or another family member at
work not because they spent too much, but because taxes have taken too much.
DAE
I'm proud of this country. I'd gladly wrap myself in our flag. I don't
live in a fantasy world like you do. You have continually hated every
Republican past and present on this Newsgroup. Even Reagan, the man who
helped destroy the Soviet Union and who is now a very ill man. In spite of
his illness, you openly said you "Hated Reagan". You didn't even know you
live in a Republican dominated State. Your hatred of anything or anyone of
the center right is spiteful. I would imagine your car, if you have one,
only has left turn signals on it. When you find one person that shares your
views you act like a lone cheerleader. And how silly you look welcoming them
to the Group. Others who join usually get a "What he/she said" greeting.
Most of these are foreigner's and of the Marxist persuasion, but then you
wouldn't realize that. They infest the Internet looking for home grown
discontent's like you. It gives them the reason to stay.
While you read all of your favorite Award winning desk jockey writers, and
especially those in the World's Finest Newspaper, the NYT (I assume you have
read all of the Newspaper's in the World to make that statement and wonder
how much Chinese you know, or any other language for that matter) it's
Publisher hangs his head in shame and disgust. I think he should read his
paper sometime and see just what is happening to it.
Maybe forgetfulness isn't one of your problems but a total lack of knowledge
blocked by your hatred and constant pandering of Copyrighted materials that
don't belong on a newsgroup like this is.
You, Marian have attacked many people on this group personally. You, Marian
deserve to be attacked personally because you Marian are not a patriot as
you claim to be. You are just one person who likes to complain about
everything political. A patriot Marian would not make the statement you did
about fleeing with your Son to escape the Draft. Of course in a Democratic
War in Viet Nam many did and were pardoned by another Democrat. Think about
that Marian
My fantasy is that you would just disappear from this group and go to one of
those that loves radicals. That would give me a very warm fuzzy feeling.
As usual I don't know what "Boom Boom" means. It must be those little
voices you hear in your wee little under used brain.
Have a nice day, and please try to find a Newsgroup somewhere else that fits
your needs so we can rebuild this Group into a fun place (you probably don't
know what fun is do you?) that it once was.
Don
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030605225715...@mb-m26.aol.com...
Mergatroid
"DAE" <d.e...@attbi.com> wrote:
>Marian,
>
>I'm proud of this country. I'd gladly wrap myself in our flag. I don't
>live in a fantasy world like you do. You have continually hated every
>Republican past and present on this Newsgroup. Even Reagan, the man who
>helped destroy the Soviet Union and who is now a very ill man. In spite
of
>his illness, you openly said you "Hated Reagan". You didn't even know you
>live in a Republican dominated State. Your hatred of anything or anyone
of
>the center right is spiteful. I would imagine your car, if you have one,
>only has left turn signals on it. When you find one person that shares
your
>views you act like a lone cheerleader. And how silly you look welcoming
them
>to the Group. Others who join usually get a "What he/she said" greeting.
>Most of these are foreigner's and of the Marxist persuasion, but then you
>wouldn't realize that. They infest the Internet looking for home grown
>discontent's like you. It gives them the reason to stay.
WTF??? I really don't understand this whole "You don't agree with Bush and
the Administration and the 'Coalition of the Willing' so you must be a Marxist"
thing--and if they were, is this a group where "foreigner's" (sic), Marxist
or no, are not welcome?
>
>While you read all of your favorite Award winning desk jockey writers, and
>especially those in the World's Finest Newspaper, the NYT (I assume you
have
>read all of the Newspaper's in the World to make that statement and wonder
>how much Chinese you know, or any other language for that matter) it's
>Publisher hangs his head in shame and disgust. I think he should read his
>paper sometime and see just what is happening to it.
I seem to remember Marian mentioning that she reads many different news sites
every day but those who would attack her always pick on the fact that she
reads the NYT--a paper I would still trust more for information despite what
happened with one reporter (though I too read news from many sources) before
one of the alarmist Murdoch outlets, but that's my choice--if you don't like
the damn paper don't read it or postings derived from it.
>
>Maybe forgetfulness isn't one of your problems but a total lack of knowledge
>blocked by your hatred and constant pandering of Copyrighted materials that
>don't belong on a newsgroup like this is.
And so here it is again--Marian posts a column by Molly Ivins (a writer I
happen to like) or someone else who doesn't appeal to some of the folks in
here and she is attacked for reposting copyrighted material--not claiming
it as her own, mind you, but always properly attributed. I think it's easier
to read an article included within a posting since I have a slow computer
and leaving to go to a linked news site usually involves having my browser
freeze up while all the pop-ups from the site load. I really don't see why
this should be a problem, unless some people have newsreaders that have a
hard time loading such long posts.
Marian is also accused of not thinking for herself when she posts someone
else's writing, not having ideas of her own and so forth--but how many articles
have been posted by Tex with no comment but his signature, and how many posts
consisting entirely of quotes has Keith made in answer to posts from other
people? Even Leighann before she left posted a bunch of stuff from sources
like the National Review and Ann Coulter--I thought all of it was utter shite
and so after a paragraph or so stopped reading, but I certainly wouldn't
tell Leighann to think for herself--if she agreed with what the articles
said then fine. But others praise these postings by Tex and Keith and Leighann
because they happen to agree with those particular copyrighted items--and
why not, if they agree?--but Marian gets attacked. Whether you agree with
her or not it isn't fair--disagree with the article if you feel strongly
about it but why hold a double standard?
>
>You, Marian have attacked many people on this group personally. You, Marian
>deserve to be attacked personally because you Marian are not a patriot as
>you claim to be.
I won't say that in my relatively short time here I have never seen Marian
attack anyone--I have--but often it is in response to an attack from someone
else, and I have much more often seen folks gang up on Marian, and have seen
her attacked for no reason (for example: when she couldn't open a link from
a post yesterday and said "I can't get it" and someone very kindly chimed
in "well no wonder!"--how sweet. At least JD--though he rarely agrees with
her--had the class to explain what she was missing). She's accused of being
witless, not thinking for herself, being a troublemaker--and what was that
line? "leftist lunatics?" With sweet nothings like that not only is Marian
being attacked but anyone (like myself) who leans to the left. And I have
also on many occasions seen Marian respond to non-political posts in the
kindest and sweetest way imaginable, even to people she normally doesn't
agree with, at least politically speaking. So don't paint her as a bitch
or a hate-monger if you aren't willing to practice what you preach. Maybe
if everyone--including Marian--calmed down their "attacks" people wouldn't
leave the group. I don't think it's realistic to say that political discussions
have no place in this kind of group--if they upset you don't read them--but
I also don't think that it's realistic to expect someone--myself included
:) --who is consistently called a fool and a lunatic and witless to not have
a strong reaction.
You are just one person who likes to complain about
>everything political. A patriot Marian would not make the statement you
did
>about fleeing with your Son to escape the Draft. Of course in a Democratic
>War in Viet Nam many did and were pardoned by another Democrat. Think about
>that Marian
And a Republican pardoned Nixon--what's your point? Being a "patriot" does
not mean "my country right or wrong" to everyone--you can love your country
and still hate what its government is doing. If Marian or I or anyone else
who spoke out against the war or any particular administration really hated
the country I imagine that we couldn't care less about what was done with
it--we could leave, I suppose, if that were feasible, but we wouldn't care
enough to object. If I had been a male of draft age during the Vietnam war
I would have headed north as well, not out of hatred for America but because
I couldn't imagine killing others or facing death myself in a conflict that
I thought this country should have had no part in. I don't see how "duty"
and "patriotism" could justify bringing about death for a cause you believe
to be wrong. So I guess that makes me a Marxist :)
>
>My fantasy is that you would just disappear from this group and go to one
of
>those that loves radicals. That would give me a very warm fuzzy feeling.
>As usual I don't know what "Boom Boom" means. It must be those little
>voices you hear in your wee little under used brain.
>
>Have a nice day, and please try to find a Newsgroup somewhere else that
fits
>your needs so we can rebuild this Group into a fun place (you probably don't
>know what fun is do you?) that it once was.
I for one would not like to see you go, Marian--not that I think you would,
just thought I'd say it :) I don't agree with absolutely everything you
say in your posts--and I agree with far less in the posts of many people
here, but I recognize that they have their good points as well :)
I'm really sorry that Leighann left--I'll miss the bunny stories :(
At any rate, I've been lurking for a couple of days--haven't been writing
mostly because I was too tired-- and thinking of taking off myself--sorry
for the extra-long post but I'm a little sick of the acrimony.
Anyway--
merg
Vickie
>Date: 6/6/03
[Family Time Flexibility Act]
>I don't see a problem with this. Workers will still have the option of
>working
>overtime or not. Besides it'll create lots of jobs to fill the demand for
>the
>extra time to fulfill the demand for the work not performed.
>--
You have your opinion, I have mine. I know it sounds good to say the bill would
let some employees who work more than 40 hours a week *choose* between overtime
pay or compensatory time-off at a later date (both would be at the
time-and-a-half rate).
But, I think it would give the employer the chance to work the employees when
they need to, force them to take off when they don't necessarily want to, and
reduce the amount the employer pays the employee over the course of a year.
When employers add a few hours to each full-time employee’s work week,
they’ll be able to fire their part-time employees, thereby eliminating costly
jobs.
Vickie
JD Cooper
explain if not impossible.
JD
Mergatroid
"Clark Simmons" <cl...@xld.com> wrote:
>I don't see a problem with this. Workers will still have the option of
working
>overtime or not. Besides it'll create lots of jobs to fill the demand for
the
>extra time to fulfill the demand for the work not performed.
>--
>Regards,
>Clark, Still Free in Round Rock Texas USA
Well, maybe, maybe not--I know that my sister ends up working overtime precisely
because so many people have been cut out of her division that she's doing
much of the work that used to be done by three people--it's still cheaper
to pay one person time and a half than it is to pay three--plus benefits
for only one--and she can barely get away for vacation time, much less compensatory
time.
I work for the state and am not allowed much in the way of overtime--I get
comp time if I work forty hours in a week where there is also a paid holiday,
but if I don't use it within a year it goes bye-bye.
The University is under a budgeting crunch and they're looking at staff reduction
as a way to save money--we've been told that with people taking the early
retirement offered them and with the money saved by not hiring for vacant
positions there *shouldn't* be any layoffs, but it is not at all certain.
The waiting and the wondering is not much fun, I can tell you.
merg
JD Cooper
I work for an international company and for years they have legally had
the right to ask me to take "comp" time when I have had to work
overtime. I like it. I like it a lot! Sometimes I manage to garner a
three day weekend out of a little overtime here and there. *Way Cool* if
you ask me! Besides, it ain't such a bad thing to work over and make
sure our customers are taken care of... Maybe a temporary inconvenience,
but the problem is solved and I get more weekend. I like that! Sometimes
I work a day of the weekend, but no prob... next weekend will be a long one.
JD
Vickie
>Date: 6/6/03
[The Family Time Flexibility Act]
Vickie wrote:
>> Well, thank goodness they yanked it from yesterday's schedule after failing
>to
>> find enough votes to pass it..BUT they *will* try again. They've already
>vowed
>> to reschedule the vote. I've done all I can do -- written to my
>congressman,
>> etc.
JD wrote:
>Vickie, this kind of thing has been tried in one way or the other many,
>many times in our working life. Its run up the flag pole to see who
>salutes, that's all.
Well, in all my research one thing became clear -- big bidness is the only one
saluting it.
Another thing is clear -- that it would save employers money on overtime pay...
the working stiff would be paid less. Employers would be able to get more hours
of work out of employees each week without having to pay overtime wages.
Employers would get to substitute comp time for overtime, and the EMPLOYERS get
the right to decide when -- even if -- a worker gets to take his/her comp time.
This bill would provide no protection against employers asking workers to take
time off instead of cash...and no protection against employers giving overtime
only to workers who agree to take the time off instead of cash.
Vickie wrote:
>> I have several relatives who work for Goodyear and depend on overtime to
>make
>> ends meet. What good is more time off if you lose the roof over your head?
JD wrote:
>No disrespect intended, but is it possible they spent more than they
>could afford to spend? (credit) On the other side of that 'coin' is some
>folks who work more, or have a second job, or another family member at
>work not because they spent too much, but because taxes have taken too much.
I don't balance their checkbooks so I can only speak about what I see from the
outside. It sure doesn't look like they are living beyond their means. One
Daddy is currently working overtime because they have two kids who need braces.
As good as it is, the Goodyear medical plan won't cover it all...they have to
come up with around $500 for *each* child.
Vickie
JD Cooper
I agree... it isn't much fun, but that's the way it is. I have been thru
a number of ups and downs in our business. three 1/2 decades in it and I
have about seen it all. It gets scary as you get older because, for
example, I don't want to be a 57 year old white man looking for a job.
Believe it or not, the company shrank and shrank the last ten years and
I survived all the layoffs to become the sole, SINGLE employee for this
company from Louisiana to Arizona and north to Oklahoma and Colorado.
Very scary. We are on the uptick now and currently I have 17 folks
working in that territory and it sure feels nice and fuzzy. The cylcle
was down for us in the 90's while most others were up, now the opposite.
JD
lamb
Loes
a fellow marxist :-)
and foreigner too - so beware!
Mergatroid wrote:
--
Loes
Vickie
>Date: 6/6/03
>> [Family Time Flexibility Act]
[..]
>> But, I think it would give the employer the chance to work the employees
>when
>> they need to, force them to take off when they don't necessarily want to,
>and
>> reduce the amount the employer pays the employee over the course of a year.
>>
>> When employers add a few hours to each full-time employee’s work week,
>> they’ll be able to fire their part-time employees, thereby eliminating
>costly
>> jobs.
>>
>> Vickie
>
>I work for an international company and for years they have legally had
>the right to ask me to take "comp" time when I have had to work
>overtime. I like it. I like it a lot! Sometimes I manage to garner a
>three day weekend out of a little overtime here and there. *Way Cool* if
>you ask me! Besides, it ain't such a bad thing to work over and make
>sure our customers are taken care of... Maybe a temporary inconvenience,
>but the problem is solved and I get more weekend. I like that! Sometimes
>I work a day of the weekend, but no prob... next weekend will be a long one.
>
>JD
Thank you for your input. I imagine young families would opt for the cash
instead.
Vickie
Mergatroid
JD Cooper <no-pr...@fun.com> wrote:
>Merg... there is a *history* to this and one that is difficult to
>explain if not impossible.
>
>JD
No doubt, JD--which is why I specified that I was only responding to what
I've seen since I've been here--it seems that many of those who decry attacking
people the loudest do an awful lot of attacking themselves, and maybe we
should--all of us, including me--think about this, whatever the history of
the group happens to be. Otherwise, it isn't going to get better and more
folks will drop out, and new ones might not want to stick around, you know?
I know it isn't easy--shoot, I've had to sit on my hands the past couple
of days to avoid spitting out nasty retorts to a bunch of postings I've seen
here because I was feeling tired and cranky, but I also realized that I
didn't want to get sucked into a cycle of responses that just got nastier
and nastier. So I'll try to be a good girl and not bite anyone's head off--and
if someone attacks me I'll try to ignore them or answer calmly--though, of
course, I can't guarantee that > :)
merg
JD Cooper
I was 24 when I started in this buz and I can assure you that when they
were working me to death I would have preferred time with my young
family. I missed a lot of Christmas days working OT. I'd have rather
watched the kids on those mornings. Also, they'd have had fewer chores
to slave away at if I had been home more regularly. Well, that's the way
it was for me, anyway.
Anyhoo.. you said the bill was trashed so why is everyone mad?
:-)
JD
Vickie
I try to read all views -- left, right and center -- until the name-calling
that is.
And girl...I sure wish I could express myself as well as you can! ;-)
Vickie
---------
Vickie
>Date: 6/6/03
[Family Time Flexibility Act]
[..]
>Anyhoo.. you said the bill was trashed so why is everyone mad?
>
>:-)
>
>JD
Not mad...never mad...just thinking about the next time they try to push it
through...they said they will try again.
Love,
Norma Rae ;-)
Mergatroid
lamb <lambwil...@chello.nl> wrote:
>That, dear Mergatroid, was one beautiful post. I thank you for it.
>Loes
>a fellow marxist :-)
>and foreigner too - so beware!
>
Oh. thanks Loes :) It was long enough, anyway!
merg
Mergatroid
vbfr...@aol.comatose (Vickie) wrote:
>Oh please don't go away for good, Merg...we definitely need more balance
here.
>I try to read all views -- left, right and center -- until the name-calling
>that is.
Thanks, Vickie--I was just toying with the idea--partly because I keep getting
sucked into arguments, but mostly I just need to spend more time at the gym,
LOL
>
>And girl...I sure wish I could express myself as well as you can! ;-)
>
>Vickie
Well I probably could have edited that a bit, but thanks :)
merg
Vickie
>Date: 6/6/03
(Vickie) wrote:
>>Oh please don't go away for good, Merg...we definitely need more balance
>here.
>
>Thanks, Vickie--I was just toying with the idea--partly because I keep
>getting
>sucked into arguments, but mostly I just need to spend more time at the gym,
>LOL
LOL indeed! I didn't think our group was THAT bad!
V
DAE
As you did, I will intersperse my comments to your reply.
"Mergatroid" <me...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ve1r28i...@corp.supernews.com...
If you don't understand it why are you commenting on it?
> >While you read all of your favorite Award winning desk jockey writers,
and
> >especially those in the World's Finest Newspaper, the NYT (I assume you
> have
> >read all of the Newspaper's in the World to make that statement and
wonder
> >how much Chinese you know, or any other language for that matter) it's
> >Publisher hangs his head in shame and disgust. I think he should read
his
> >paper sometime and see just what is happening to it.
>
> I seem to remember Marian mentioning that she reads many different news
sites
> every day but those who would attack her always pick on the fact that she
> reads the NYT--a paper I would still trust more for information despite
what
> happened with one reporter (though I too read news from many sources)
before
> one of the alarmist Murdoch outlets, but that's my choice--if you don't
like
> the damn paper don't read it or postings derived from it.
She made a comment that the NYT was the finest newspaper in the world. I
replied to her comment which is now front page news. It isn't!
Incidentally, do you always start a sentence with an obscenity or the
abbreviations for one?
> >Maybe forgetfulness isn't one of your problems but a total lack of
knowledge
> >blocked by your hatred and constant pandering of Copyrighted materials
that
> >don't belong on a newsgroup like this is.
>
> And so here it is again--Marian posts a column by Molly Ivins (a writer I
> happen to like) or someone else who doesn't appeal to some of the folks in
> here and she is attacked for reposting copyrighted material--not claiming
> it as her own, mind you, but always properly attributed. I think it's
easier
> to read an article included within a posting since I have a slow computer
> and leaving to go to a linked news site usually involves having my browser
> freeze up while all the pop-ups from the site load. I really don't see why
> this should be a problem, unless some people have newsreaders that have a
> hard time loading such long posts.
You seem to be fit for each other. And copyrighted material is still
copyrighted. You work for a University don't you? Do you plagerize other
author's works without their knowledge or permission?
> Marian is also accused of not thinking for herself when she posts
someone
> else's writing, not having ideas of her own and so forth--but how many
articles
> have been posted by Tex with no comment but his signature, and how many
posts
> consisting entirely of quotes has Keith made in answer to posts from other
> people? Even Leighann before she left posted a bunch of stuff from sources
> like the National Review and Ann Coulter--I thought all of it was utter
shite
> and so after a paragraph or so stopped reading, but I certainly wouldn't
> tell Leighann to think for herself--if she agreed with what the articles
> said then fine. But others praise these postings by Tex and Keith and
Leighann
> because they happen to agree with those particular copyrighted items--and
> why not, if they agree?--but Marian gets attacked. Whether you agree with
> her or not it isn't fair--disagree with the article if you feel strongly
> about it but why hold a double standard?
Another disquised obscenity. Maybe you should wash your mouth out with
soap. These folks don't use copyrighted material on a daily basis, or
multiple times a day like your friend does. It still doesn't make it right
though.
Your not being here doesn't mean anything. You lean the same way so it
wouldn't bother you what she says or plagerizes from other sources. She
loves the attention she gets. She has even said that let people pick on her
as she can take it.
As for Political non stop posts, there are groups for that. This isn't one
of them. Look at some of the other groups that do post politics. Those are
the ones I stay away from.
I haven't ever responded to one of your posts so I don't know if people have
used those names on you or not. If they did, maybe you deserve them.
Nixon wasn't part of the conversation. Playing "bait and switch" with me?
If you have read all of this and don't know what my point is then I don't
know what you are reading.
If you would have been Male and fled the country you should have not been
permitted back without being charged with a crime of evading the draft. Of
course you could always go to Canada and grow feathers and smuggle yourself
back into the country as a chicken.
I don't know if it makes you a Marxist, but we didn't need Marxist's then.
We had the Soviet Union to confront at the time. They no longer exist you
know, but there are some cells floating around who can't except the fact
that Communism failed, big time.
> >My fantasy is that you would just disappear from this group and go to one
> of
> >those that loves radicals. That would give me a very warm fuzzy feeling.
> >As usual I don't know what "Boom Boom" means. It must be those little
> >voices you hear in your wee little under used brain.
> >
> >Have a nice day, and please try to find a Newsgroup somewhere else that
> fits
> >your needs so we can rebuild this Group into a fun place (you probably
don't
> >know what fun is do you?) that it once was.
>
> I for one would not like to see you go, Marian--not that I think you
would,
> just thought I'd say it :) I don't agree with absolutely everything you
> say in your posts--and I agree with far less in the posts of many people
> here, but I recognize that they have their good points as well :)
Stick around for a while and see if you can make that statement. Probably
not as you indicate you agree with her you may have found a compatible
poster child.
> I'm really sorry that Leighann left--I'll miss the bunny stories :(
> At any rate, I've been lurking for a couple of days--haven't been writing
> mostly because I was too tired-- and thinking of taking off myself--sorry
> for the extra-long post but I'm a little sick of the acrimony.
>
> Anyway--
>
> merg
I'm a lot sick of the acrimony, its been going on for several years now. I
also miss Leighann, but there are some people who love to show their
stupidity and drove her away. Oh, you aren't one of them.
Enough,
Don
lamb
>Enough,
>
>Don
>
>
>
>
And that was just about the only decent word in that post.
--
Loes
DAE
"lamb" <lambwil...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:3EE1136A...@chello.nl...
Lamb,
Thank you. I think it ranks right up there with some of your posts as well.
Don
Mergatroid
"DAE" <d.e...@attbi.com> wrote:
>> WTF??? I really don't understand this whole "You don't agree with Bush
and
>> the Administration and the 'Coalition of the Willing' so you must be a
>Marxist"
>> thing--and if they were, is this a group where "foreigner's" (sic),
>Marxist
>> or no, are not welcome?
>
>If you don't understand it why are you commenting on it?
I don't understand it, which is why asked the question--and the second question,
which I see you didn't answer--so would you please?
>> I seem to remember Marian mentioning that she reads many different news
>sites
>> every day but those who would attack her always pick on the fact that
she
>> reads the NYT--a paper I would still trust more for information despite
>what
>> happened with one reporter (though I too read news from many sources)
>before
>> one of the alarmist Murdoch outlets, but that's my choice--if you don't
>like
>> the damn paper don't read it or postings derived from it.
>
>She made a comment that the NYT was the finest newspaper in the world.
I
>replied to her comment which is now front page news. It isn't!
Well, I didn't see her say that--and I still hold that I trust it more than
many others--anyway...
>
>Incidentally, do you always start a sentence with an obscenity or the
>abbreviations for one?
Nope. Did you see any other sentences that started off with an obscenity
or an abbreviation of one? And anyway given that some are able to fling racial
epithets in here without inciting comment (or worrying about offending anyone)
I figure I can toss a "fuck" in there now and again :)
It isn't plagiarism if she doesn't claim to have written it--I have never
seen a posted article by Marian or anyone else in here that wasn't properly
attributed--it is unauthorized use of copyrighted material, however; maybe
you should contact the authorities if you think it's so wrong...I mean, it
isn't like it doesn't happen EVERYWHERE on the 'net, but if it bugs you then
blow the whistle.
At any rate, I don't care if she or anyone else posts an article--my issue
was that one person gets attacked for it while many others don't.
"Shite" isn't an disguised obscenity--just another form for "shit"--but I
didn't use it to make it more acceptable--I just like the way it sounds with
"utter" :) No, I don't believe I need to wash out my mouth--I brushed today;
that was sufficient :) And I don't think there is anything low or dirty
about using a couple of cuss words in a group of adults--as I said before,
I've seen far worse in here.
"Democraps", for example...
>
>
I believe that I said I didn't agree with everything she says--like Marian
and most people here, I am quite capable of thinking for myself, thanks :)
And anyway what you accused me of is part of the problem in the group--if
some folks in here agree with you, you can get away with attacks, slurs,
insults, unauthorized use of copyrighted material, whatever--their behavior
can pass without comment. But Marian posts an article and immediately she
is brainless, not thinking for herself, &c. That was my point.
She
>loves the attention she gets. She has even said that let people pick on
her
>as she can take it.
Well would it make you happier if she started crying? If she held back her
opinions? When I came here I stayed out of the political discussions at first
because I was new, didn't want to argue with people, and so on--but after
a while I couldn't stand the jingoistic rhetoric that I saw posted so many
times--after a while you have to let fly.
>
>As for Political non stop posts, there are groups for that. This isn't
one
>of them. Look at some of the other groups that do post politics. Those
are
>the ones I stay away from.
So what does "alt.fifty-plus" stand for, then? Presumably it is for people
to discuss their daily lives, their families, their pets, houses, vacations,
joys and woes--and I see plenty of posts like this--but I would guess that
it could also include issues--big issues--that are going on in the world
around. These issues can preoccupy you, depress you, worry you--the political
posting groups are often filled with wackos and trolls and spam, but this
is--well I thought it was--a place where people could have a discussion of
whatever was on their minds. I could understand if this were a cooking group,
say, and someone started a political thread, that would be out of place--but
this isn't a group that is restricted to one topic area, so my guess is that
*most* anything goes. As I said before, if you don't like the political posts,
no one is forcing you to read them.
>
>I haven't ever responded to one of your posts so I don't know if people
have
>used those names on you or not. If they did, maybe you deserve them.
Yeah, maybe I do--definitely the "Marxist" one, LOLOL
Was that supposed to hurt my feelings? :) LOLOL
>
>
>> And a Republican pardoned Nixon--what's your point? Being a "patriot"
does
>> not mean "my country right or wrong" to everyone--you can love your
>country
>> and still hate what its government is doing. If Marian or I or anyone
else
>> who spoke out against the war or any particular administration really
>hated
>> the country I imagine that we couldn't care less about what was done with
>> it--we could leave, I suppose, if that were feasible, but we wouldn't
care
>> enough to object. If I had been a male of draft age during the Vietnam
war
>> I would have headed north as well, not out of hatred for America but
>because
>> I couldn't imagine killing others or facing death myself in a conflict
>that
>> I thought this country should have had no part in. I don't see how "duty"
>> and "patriotism" could justify bringing about death for a cause you
>believe
>> to be wrong. So I guess that makes me a Marxist :)
>
>Nixon wasn't part of the conversation.
You said something about Democrats pardoning Democrats--I made a point about
a Republican pardoning a Republican--nope, no bait and switch here.
laying "bait and switch" with me?
>If you have read all of this and don't know what my point is then I don't
>know what you are reading.
>If you would have been Male and fled the country you should have not been
>permitted back without being charged with a crime of evading the draft.
Of
>course you could always go to Canada and grow feathers and smuggle yourself
>back into the country as a chicken.
Hmmmm--okay, "go and kill these people and stand in front of bullets even
if you think the nation's reasons for doing so are grossly and horribly wrong
or we'll throw you in jail!" Anyone ever think about just how undemocratic
the draft is? Fine, if I'm a chicken I'll wear my feathers proudly. Christ.
Yep, I blaspheme too.
>
>I don't know if it makes you a Marxist, but we didn't need Marxist's (sic)
then.
>We had the Soviet Union to confront at the time. They no longer exist you
>know, but there are some cells floating around who can't except (sic) the
fact
>that Communism failed, big time.
To be honest, I haven't read much of Marx except a few excerpts, so who knows?
I'm not much of a capitalist, I'll give you that...
>
>
>
>> >My fantasy is that you would just disappear from this group and go to
one
>> of
>> >those that loves radicals. That would give me a very warm fuzzy feeling.
>> >As usual I don't know what "Boom Boom" means. It must be those little
>> >voices you hear in your wee little under used brain.
>> >
>> >Have a nice day, and please try to find a Newsgroup somewhere else that
>> fits
>> >your needs so we can rebuild this Group into a fun place (you probably
>don't
>> >know what fun is do you?) that it once was.
>>
>> I for one would not like to see you go, Marian--not that I think you
>would,
>> just thought I'd say it :) I don't agree with absolutely everything you
>> say in your posts--and I agree with far less in the posts of many people
>> here, but I recognize that they have their good points as well :)
>
>Stick around for a while and see if you can make that statement. Probably
>not as you indicate you agree with her you may have found a compatible
>poster child.
Well thanks very much for calling me a poster child--for what I don't know--Marxism?
The poultry industry? Potty-mouths? Whatever--I like Marian just fine so
I'm not terribly worried about it.
>
>
>
>> I'm really sorry that Leighann left--I'll miss the bunny stories :(
>> At any rate, I've been lurking for a couple of days--haven't been writing
>> mostly because I was too tired-- and thinking of taking off myself--sorry
>> for the extra-long post but I'm a little sick of the acrimony.
>>
>> Anyway--
>>
>> merg
>
>I'm a lot sick of the acrimony, its been going on for several years now.
I
>also miss Leighann, but there are some people who love to show their
>stupidity and drove her away. Oh, you aren't one of them.
Well, there's a mercy anyhow :) Even though I didn't agree with Leighann
a bunch of times I liked her very much.
Sorry, Marian, for turning this discussion on you--I'm sure you don't need
me sticking up for you--
merg
>
>Enough,
>
>Don
KEITHP279
vbfr...@aol.comatose (Vickie) writes:
>. . . Oh please don't go away for good, Merg...we definitely need more balance
>here. . . .
We certainly do! For every political link and/or political article reprinted
in AFPF, five lean to the left to every one which leans to the right.
Nevertheless Merg, most certainly, stay.
k
KEITHP279
writes:
>. . . She made a comment that the NYT was the finest newspaper in the world.
I
>replied to her comment which is now front page news. It isn't! . . .
Agreed. The finest paper in the world is the Wall Street Journal. Opinions
may vary.
k :)
KEITHP279
writes:
>DAE wrote:
>
>>Enough,
>>
>>Don
Your disagreement with what he wrote doesn't make the post indecent. Play
fair, be nice. We all are entitled to our opinion. No?
k
KEITHP279
<me...@hotmail.com> writes:
<comments interspersed>
>"DAE" <d.e...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>Marian,
>>
>>I'm proud of this country. I'd gladly wrap myself in our flag. I don't
>>live in a fantasy world like you do. You have continually hated every
>>Republican past and present on this Newsgroup. Even Reagan, the man who
>>helped destroy the Soviet Union and who is now a very ill man. In spite
>of
>>his illness, you openly said you "Hated Reagan". You didn't even know you
>>live in a Republican dominated State. Your hatred of anything or anyone
>of
>>the center right is spiteful. I would imagine your car, if you have one,
>>only has left turn signals on it. When you find one person that shares
>your
>>views you act like a lone cheerleader. And how silly you look welcoming
>them
>>to the Group. Others who join usually get a "What he/she said" greeting.
>>Most of these are foreigner's and of the Marxist persuasion, but then you
>>wouldn't realize that. They infest the Internet looking for home grown
>>discontent's like you. It gives them the reason to stay.
>
>WTF??? I really don't understand this whole "You don't agree with Bush and
>the Administration and the 'Coalition of the Willing' so you must be a
>Marxist"
>thing--and if they were, is this a group where "foreigner's" (sic), Marxist
>or no, are not welcome?
I am here for the fun and friendship, not to be brainwashed. I have no other
comment regarding that.
I will say that if we are going to start correcting spelling (or punctuation
and grammar) on a regular basis, things here won't become more friendly, they
will get worse. Typos aren't that big a deal.
>>While you read all of your favorite Award winning desk jockey writers, and
>>especially those in the World's Finest Newspaper, the NYT (I assume you
>have
>>read all of the Newspaper's in the World to make that statement and wonder
>>how much Chinese you know, or any other language for that matter) it's
>>Publisher hangs his head in shame and disgust. I think he should read his
>>paper sometime and see just what is happening to it.
>I seem to remember Marian mentioning that she reads many different news sites
>every day but those who would attack her always pick on the fact that she
>reads the NYT--a paper I would still trust more for information despite what
>happened with one reporter (though I too read news from many sources) before
>one of the alarmist Murdoch outlets, but that's my choice--if you don't like
>the damn paper don't read it or postings derived from it.
What happened at the Times was far more than "one reporter." One was fired,
one was suspended (and then quit), sports reporters were censured because their
opinions didn't agree with management's. The national desk was in shambles and
the editor had lost the faith of the great majority of his reporters. And all
that pales in comparison to mixing opinion with news. The op-ed page often
found its way to the front page. In a well-run, honorable, news organization
that is something which should *never* happen.
>>Maybe forgetfulness isn't one of your problems but a total lack of knowledge
>>blocked by your hatred and constant pandering of Copyrighted materials that
>>don't belong on a newsgroup like this is.
>And so here it is again--Marian posts a column by Molly Ivins (a writer I
>happen to like) or someone else who doesn't appeal to some of the folks in
>here and she is attacked for reposting copyrighted material
I would like to post an occsional article from the Wall Street Journal.
However, they have a policy which forbids their articles being posted to
newsgroups. I know because I asked. If I were so inclined, I could bombard
the newsgroup with articles from other publications. What if we all decided to
do the same thing?
How enjoyable a group would this be. Yes, people should ask permission before
publishing copyrighted material and no, this is not a forum for that sort of
thing. Not as a steady anyway, imo.
>not claiming
>it as her own, mind you, but always properly attributed. I think it's easier
>to read an article included within a posting since I have a slow computer
>and leaving to go to a linked news site usually involves having my browser
>freeze up while all the pop-ups from the site load. I really don't see why
>this should be a problem, unless some people have newsreaders that have a
>hard time loading such long posts.
> Marian is also accused of not thinking for herself when she posts someone
>else's writing, not having ideas of her own and so forth--but how many
>articles
>have been posted by Tex with no comment but his signature,
Just a guess, one a week?
>and how many posts
>consisting entirely of quotes has Keith made in answer to posts from other
>people?
A whole bunch! :) My feeling is that it is gets to the heart of the matter
when direct quotations from the person(s) involved are offered. It is one
thing for me to say, "Mr. Clinton said....." and quite another to *show* you
*his* words. Then again, the vast majority are about "fun" things, music,
humor, kids, books, etc. I am not here on a mission but rather, to have fun.
Some people enjoy my quotes, some don't, a few have accused me of having no
thoughts of my own. No problem.
>Even Leighann before she left posted a bunch of stuff from sources
>like the National Review and Ann Coulter--
I doubt that Leighann posted five articles in the past two months. Again,
there is no comparison with the amount offered by Marian. You like what Marian
offers, I understand that but I ask again, if I were to post a like amount from
The Weekly Standard, the WSJ, the NY Post, the Washington Times, would you
still enjoy the group. I think many of enjoy *what we agree with* ......this
issue has nothing to do with free speech.
>I thought all of it was utter shite
>and so after a paragraph or so stopped reading, but I certainly wouldn't
>tell Leighann to think for herself--if she agreed with what the articles
>said then fine. But others praise these postings by Tex and Keith and
>Leighann
My postings are not often praised. They should be but who can account for
taste! <wink>
>because they happen to agree with those particular copyrighted items--and
>why not, if they agree?--but Marian gets attacked.
Okay, we agree on that point.
> Whether you agree with
>her or not it isn't fair--disagree with the article if you feel strongly
>about it but why hold a double standard?
Volume.
>>You, Marian have attacked many people on this group personally. You, Marian
>>deserve to be attacked personally because you Marian are not a patriot as
>>you claim to be.
>I won't say that in my relatively short time here I have never seen Marian
>attack anyone--I have--but often it is in response to an attack from someone
>else, and I have much more often seen folks gang up on Marian, and have seen
>her attacked for no reason (for example: when she couldn't open a link from
>a post yesterday and said "I can't get it" and someone very kindly chimed
>in "well no wonder!"--how sweet.
Oh come on, you're picking nits. Do you find that comment (by me) to be
"sweeter" than insinuating that people in Texas and Nevada are crazy? She may
not have been the one to publish those 1-800 numbers but she sure thought
mental illness was hilarious. Don't look for one-sided nastiness in this
group, there is no such animal. There is enough on both sides to fill five
newsgroups, and several lifetimes.
>At least JD--though he rarely agrees with
>her--had the class to explain what she was missing).
We agree! J.D. has class.
>She's accused of being
>witless, not thinking for herself, being a troublemaker--and what was that
>line? "leftist lunatics?" With sweet nothings like that not only is Marian
>being attacked but anyone (like myself) who leans to the left. And I have
>also on many occasions seen Marian respond to non-political posts in the
>kindest and sweetest way imaginable, even to people she normally doesn't
>agree with, at least politically speaking. So don't paint her as a bitch
>or a hate-monger if you aren't willing to practice what you preach. Maybe
>if everyone--including Marian--calmed down their "attacks" people wouldn't
>leave the group. I don't think it's realistic to say that political
>discussions
>have no place in this kind of group--if they upset you don't read them--but
>I also don't think that it's realistic to expect someone--myself included
>:) --who is consistently called a fool and a lunatic and witless to not have
>a strong reaction.
Selectively choosing quotes out of context solves nothing.
>You are just one person who likes to complain about
>>everything political. A patriot Marian would not make the statement you
>did
>>about fleeing with your Son to escape the Draft. Of course in a Democratic
>>War in Viet Nam many did and were pardoned by another Democrat. Think about
>>that Marian
>And a Republican pardoned Nixon--what's your point?
Apples and oranges. Mr. Ford put country about politics when he pardoned Mr.
Nixon. He knew in advance that the pardon might well cost him in the future
and was proved right when he lost the election in '80.
>Being a "patriot" does
>not mean "my country right or wrong" to everyone--you can love your country
>and still hate what its government is doing.
This is something we all know and have reiterated on many occasions.
> If Marian or I or anyone else
>who spoke out against the war or any particular administration really hated
>the country I imagine that we couldn't care less about what was done with
>it--we could leave, I suppose, if that were feasible, but we wouldn't care
>enough to object. If I had been a male of draft age during the Vietnam war
>I would have headed north as well, not out of hatred for America but because
>I couldn't imagine killing others or facing death myself in a conflict that
>I thought this country should have had no part in. I don't see how "duty"
>and "patriotism" could justify bringing about death for a cause you believe
>to be wrong. So I guess that makes me a Marxist :)
I don't understand how that qualifies you as a Marxist. But that doesn't mean
that there aren't people who disagree with the administration who are Marxists.
Scratch that last sentence, I think it's a triple negative or two negatives
and positive. Whatever, it was *absolute* slaughter of the English language
but I am too tired, as well as uncaring, to change it. Besides, nobody is here
reading this anyway 'cept you and I. And I am not so sure about you! :)
>>My fantasy is that you would just disappear from this group and go to one
>of
>>those that loves radicals. That would give me a very warm fuzzy feeling.
>>As usual I don't know what "Boom Boom" means. It must be those little
>>voices you hear in your wee little under used brain.
>>
>>Have a nice day, and please try to find a Newsgroup somewhere else that
>fits
>>your needs so we can rebuild this Group into a fun place (you probably don't
>>know what fun is do you?) that it once was.
>I for one would not like to see you go, Marian--not that I think you would,
Not to worry, she isn't going anywhere .
>just thought I'd say it :) I don't agree with absolutely everything you
>say in your posts--and I agree with far less in the posts of many people
>here, but I recognize that they have their good points as well :)
More people should think the same. Fact is, we all have good points and bad,
no matter how perfect we type ourselves to be.
>I'm really sorry that Leighann left--I'll miss the bunny stories :(
I'll miss *her*.
>At any rate, I've been lurking for a couple of days--haven't been writing
>mostly because I was too tired-- and thinking of taking off myself--sorry
>for the extra-long post but I'm a little sick of the acrimony.
I think most of us are. Some, though, enjoy it.
>Anyway--
>
>merg
k
KEITHP279
M is only eligible for comp time. Comes in handy when one misses work due to
sickness.
There is no God-given right to overtime. Matteroffact, 52% :) of employees
goof off during the day when OT is an option.
k
In article <3EE0D0A9...@fun.com>, JD Cooper <no-pr...@fun.com> writes:
>> Well, thank goodness they yanked it from yesterday's schedule after failing
>to
>> find enough votes to pass it..BUT they *will* try again. They've already
>vowed
>> to reschedule the vote. I've done all I can do -- written to my
>congressman,
>> etc.
>
>Vickie, this kind of thing has been tried in one way or the other many,
>many times in our working life. Its run up the flag pole to see who
>salutes, that's all.
>
>> I have several relatives who work for Goodyear and depend on overtime to
>make
>> ends meet. What good is more time off if you lose the roof over your head?
>
>No disrespect intended, but is it possible they spent more than they
>could afford to spend? (credit) On the other side of that 'coin' is some
>folks who work more, or have a second job, or another family member at
>work not because they spent too much, but because taxes have taken too much.
>
Lone Star
merg wrote:
I seem to remember Marian mentioning that she reads many different news
sites
> every day but those who would attack her always pick on the fact that she
> reads the NYT--a paper I would still trust more for information
despite what
> happened with one reporter (though I too read news from many sources)
before
> one of the alarmist Murdoch outlets, but that's my choice--if you
don't like
> the damn paper don't read it or postings derived from it.
Merg, this runs deeper than just the past few weeks. Over the years,
Marian has attacked and name called nearly every person in this group.
She is set in her ways and is truly entitled to her opinion and her cut
and paste jobs, but it also becomes very tiring and Yes, several on the
group have to pay by the minute for their internet connection.
Robert
Ellis
> >Most of these are foreigner's and of the Marxist persuasion, but then you
> >wouldn't realize that. They infest the Internet looking for home grown
> >discontent's like you. It gives them the reason to stay.
>
> WTF??? I really don't understand this whole "You don't agree with Bush and
> the Administration and the 'Coalition of the Willing' so you must be a
Marxist"
> thing--and if they were, is this a group where "foreigner's" (sic),
Marxist
> or no, are not welcome?
Can somebody please tell me who is classified as a foreigner...I thought
this was a multi-national group?
And how come all foreigners are of the Marxist persuasion?
Ellis
JD Cooper
> I seem to remember Marian mentioning that she reads many different news sites
> every day but those who would attack her always pick on the fact that she
> reads the NYT--a paper I would still trust more for information despite what
> happened with one reporter (though I too read news from many sources) before
> one of the alarmist Murdoch outlets, but that's my choice--if you don't like
> the damn paper don't read it or postings derived from it.
OK... I will respond to only one part, Merg.. and that is Marians "many"
sources. By her own words, I post below her total informational input:
--------begin discussion---------------
>>>Guess we just watch/read/listen to different media, JD. Marian
>>
>>Guess what, Marian... we have the same "media" here as you do. The very
>>same.
>>
>>JD
>
>
> Well, we have *access* to the same media, and lots of choices, JD, but I'd be
> surprised if our choices *ever* overlapped.
>
> For example, a week before 9/11, my NPR station [npr.org] went over from
> classical music to ALL news & info, so in addition to All Things Considered and
> Morning Edition, I have call-in/interview programs on current events [not shock
> radio], a couple of hours of the BBC during the day and from 11pm-5am, and an
> hour or 2 from Canada in the evening. And my radio set to this station is on
> all the hours that I am awake. I don't have cable, so never watch Fox, MSNBC or
> CNN, and rarely watch the commercial networks' news, but I never miss PBS' news
> and info programs. Marian
All very familiar. Still, that would leave me with more options than you
and therefore more informed because of so many sources. JD
> I read the NYTimes online everyday & some of the WP and the LATimes... See the
> difference?
>
> Marian
So do I. Also some other papers. So explain again the difference except
that you are limited..
JD
------end------
There were no further responses.
JD
Ellis
> has joined and I am quite certain a "ringer" as is Sinclair. I am fairly
> certain who is their mentor, but you, Dear, are in a class all by
> yourself. You are too stupid.
>
> JD
And you are just another inbred racist dumb fuck like that faggot boyfriend
of yours....your brand of Americanism give assholes a bad name...no wonder
terrorists wanna blow the shit outta you....I've flushed away turds with
more intelligence than you have..
If you took your heads out your asses long enough you might find that
America is not the only land of freedom and opportunity and all those other
pathetic slogans you like to give yourself...nor are all foreigners Marxist
or part of some great conspiracy to undermine George Bush or the American
way of life.
A way of life that's a damn sight harder than mine is....I never struggled
to make ends meet...had to work Christmas days...worry about keeping a roof
over my head....worry about overtime....and I retired at 36...come and go as
I please...get up when I please...do what I please...think and say what I
please...own my own home...don't owe anybody anything...never have to worry
about money...and never have to buy anything on credit...
If you think that's Marxism then maybe your subscribing to the wrong
doctrine...
So much for the American dream....it's just that...a dream....propaganda
that you are fed on from the day you were born...and you consider yourself
an astute political animal? You don't have a clue...no matter what part of
the political spectrum you subscribe to you are nothing but cannon fodder in
the eyes of your political leaders whoever they are...you're just a vote
nothing more nothing less. All leaders, all countries.
When the body bags come back from a war zone all a president worries about
is public opinion..lost votes..not the poor souls inside them...and that
could be you...your kids...your grandkids...for this you carry on like a
pack of rabid dogs?
And you call Marian stupid...she was right to brand you fascists because you
behave like Hitlers brown shirts....stifling any opposition real or
imaginary...and in my case most definately imaginary...Marxist, my ass!
Not much difference between you and Saddam's political police accept they
were pro's and you're just a bunch of sad ass amateurs trying to be big fish
in a small pool....pathetic...
Thank Christ not all Americans are sad losers like a few of you in
here...you'd be at home in a schoolyard...beating up on the black kid...
You can stick your head back up your ass now!
Clark Simmons
Maybe you curse Americanism. Suits us fine. Beats the Hell out of your
Socialism, hands down.
--
Regards,
Clark, Still Free in Round Rock Texas USA
http://BlockSpamNow.com/r/21571 - Spam Terminator
http://xld.com - Freedom's Home Page
telnet://xld.com - The Republic BBS
God Bless America and her friends!
"Ellis" <ell...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aigEa.10108$Tp3.70...@news-text.cableinet.net...
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 6/6/2003
Clark Simmons
point. Many of those who post here are are of the Marxist persuasion whether
they think so or not.
And yes, it's a multi-national group.
--
Regards,
Clark, Still Free in Round Rock Texas USA
http://BlockSpamNow.com/r/21571 - Spam Terminator
http://xld.com - Freedom's Home Page
telnet://xld.com - The Republic BBS
God Bless America and her friends!
"Ellis" <ell...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:IKbEa.10039$TE1.69...@news-text.cableinet.net...
KEITHP279
<ell...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>> You are such a pathetic bore, same as Sinclair and now his "brother" who
>> has joined and I am quite certain a "ringer" as is Sinclair. I am fairly
>> certain who is their mentor, but you, Dear, are in a class all by
>> yourself. You are too stupid.
>>
>> JD
>
>And you are just another inbred racist dumb fuck like that faggot boyfriend
>of yours....your brand of Americanism give assholes a bad name...no wonder
>terrorists wanna blow the shit outta you... <TRASH SNIPPED>
Ah yes, another kind and *respectful* leftist.
k
Faith
KEITHP279 wrote:
I was going to respond to this Keith, but I couldn't find some of the
words in the dictionary to get a exact clear picture of what the poster
was trying to relay!
Faith
--
Eugene A. Calame
>> You are such a pathetic bore, same as Sinclair and now his "brother" who
>> has joined and I am quite certain a "ringer" as is Sinclair. I am fairly
>> certain who is their mentor, but you, Dear, are in a class all by
>> yourself. You are too stupid.
>>
>> JD
>
(CUT)
>Thank Christ not all Americans are sad losers like a few of you in
>here...you'd be at home in a schoolyard...beating up on the black kid...
>
>You can stick your head back up your ass now!
>
>
>
Geeze! I don't think he, or she, likes us. Good thing he, or she, is there and
not here. Would not want him, or her, to be unhappier.
Reckon it would help if we sent him, or her, a friendship taco?
--
Eugene A. Calame eaca...@excite.com
Austin, Texas USA http://home.earthlink.net/ecalame/
Please ask your ISP to add the newsgroup alt.misc.friends
Marian
Oh VERY nicely put, Ellis... Thank you!
Marian
JD Cooper
> And you are just another inbred racist dumb fuck like that faggot boyfriend
> of yours....your brand of Americanism give assholes a bad name...no wonder
> terrorists wanna blow the shit outta you....I've flushed away turds with
> more intelligence than you have..
hmmm... First I assume you thought I was speaking of you. This was an
assumption on your part that contained quite a number of errors and I
shall take a minute from my labors to address them. Second, I'd like to
know who my "faggot boyfriend" is. I haven't aclue, but since I seem to
be sucking his dick I guess I oughta know his name, don't you think?
Well, anyway, as to the first:
> If you took your heads out your asses long enough you might find that
> America is not the only land of freedom and opportunity and all those other
> pathetic slogans you like to give yourself...nor are all foreigners Marxist
> or part of some great conspiracy to undermine George Bush or the American
> way of life.
I never assumed this country was the "only" anything as you assume. I
have not stated as much. Also, I have not once stated that all
foreigners are Marxist and have never assumed as much. I have not used
the word toward anyone that I recall. (Perhaps you confuse me with
someone else?) As far as George Bush is concerned, if you'd have paid
much attention to conversations herein you'd have noticed that I do not
like him nor did I like his Dad. I was also against the action in Iraq,
but for reasons that differed from most folks here and yet I am still
considered, what was your words, Head Stuck up my Ass?
> A way of life that's a damn sight harder than mine is....I never struggled
> to make ends meet...had to work Christmas days...worry about keeping a roof
> over my head....worry about overtime....and I retired at 36...come and go as
> I please...get up when I please...do what I please...think and say what I
> please...own my own home...don't owe anybody anything...never have to worry
> about money...and never have to buy anything on credit...
> If you think that's Marxism then maybe your subscribing to the wrong
> doctrine...
I never once said my life, nor the lives of most Americans, was "easy".
Once again you have paid little attention. By the description of your
life as worded above, I can only assume you inherited some wealth. That
is very nice. I sometimes wish I had, but I live in a place where one
usually makes his own way. I work very hard and have come to the
conclusion that I enjoy being useful and needed. I am living comfortably
and assume I will continue to do so, but I am not lazy. I tend to be
very active because I cannot bare to be bored. I suffer "cabin fever" at
the drop of a hat and have been told I am "hyperactive". I think that is
a rather crude way to describe my will to be busy doing something
constructive all the time. I am most happy that you do not have to worry
about money. It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. It also makes you
something of a snoot because a great number of the regular subscribers
to this news group are not as blessed as you and I am certain they are
bemused to hear you brag of it so. Also, it is nice that you can get out
of bed when you want to... problem is that you miss prime fishing hours
and that, sir, is a quality of life loss that is tragic! I cherish those
early dawn mornings with my kids, casting baits into the still waters in
hopes that the depths would boil with the action of a lunker affixed to
their lines!
Sleeping late is laziness.
> So much for the American dream....it's just that...a dream....propaganda
> that you are fed on from the day you were born...and you consider yourself
> an astute political animal? You don't have a clue...no matter what part of
> the political spectrum you subscribe to you are nothing but cannon fodder in
> the eyes of your political leaders whoever they are...you're just a vote
> nothing more nothing less. All leaders, all countries.
> When the body bags come back from a war zone all a president worries about
> is public opinion..lost votes..not the poor souls inside them...and that
> could be you...your kids...your grandkids...for this you carry on like a
> pack of rabid dogs?
Had you bothered to pay attention, it has only been a week or two when I
stated in this very news group that the American dream is dead. I also
have stated many times that we are, in your words, cannon fodder, for
politicians. I learned that from LBJ in the late sixties. As to my
political persuasion, I have stated many, many times that I am
completely and total independent and beholding to no political party. I
am personally very conservative, but nobody, NOBODY commands my vote by
way of a party affiliation. I vote for people from all parties based on
what and who they say they are, not by their party affiliation. Also, if
you'd paid any attention, you'd also know that I trust NO politician.
None. Zero. I have stated that I "respect" Dr. Ron Paul, but I trust him
no further that I can physically throw that 1100 pound bay stallion just
outside my window.
>
> And you call Marian stupid...she was right to brand you fascists because you
> behave like Hitlers brown shirts....stifling any opposition real or
> imaginary...and in my case most definately imaginary...Marxist, my ass!
> Not much difference between you and Saddam's political police accept they
> were pro's and you're just a bunch of sad ass amateurs trying to be big fish
> in a small pool....pathetic...
There is the "marxist" word again. You have me confused with someone
else. I have not used that word. Why are you continuing to use it? I
don't recall Marian calling me a fascist. I have read that she thinks
the Bush administration is heading down the line of fascism but I am not
a member of the admin.. Fish again, huh? I do not understand what you
are saying there, but have you been fishing recently? As to the rest of
it; yes, I call Marian stupid and so she me. Still, I was addressing
her, not you, and I fail to see what your vested interest is here.
> Thank Christ not all Americans are sad losers like a few of you in
> here...you'd be at home in a schoolyard...beating up on the black kid...
Beating up on the black kid? My, my! I'd gladly toss in some historical
accounts of the British treatment of people of color, but I shall
refrain because the Empire is gone and times have changed and it is
hardly worth fighting about.
> You can stick your head back up your ass now!
I rarely do that.
I parting I'd like you to know that I hang out on some UK news groups.
They are groups of the rural persuasion. I became interested some years
ago because of diseases that struck England's animals and I have a
vested interest in it. That aside, I have noticed that Brits can be the
most intently insulting creatures with one another I have ever seen.
They can cut one another down with such acrimony as I cannot muster, but
they do it without a single word of profanity or crudeness. In this news
group are some Brits who have often shot words at me that are somewhat
less than kind, but I had it coming. Your words at me defy
understanding. What did I do to you?
In other words:
Why are you on my case? I ask because I have only recently noticed your
arrival and have yet to address you. Who the heck are you, BTW?
JD
PS: Hey! Google me Look me up! Se if I have ever called anyone a Marxist
or anything else you seem to think I have said.
Faith
Marian wrote:
Nicely put Marian???? PLONK!!!! <guess you don't read all your
propaganda you cut and paste, as this gutter talk suits you mo bettar!!! >
Faith
Marian
>ends meet. What good is more time off if you lose the roof over your head?
>
>voted overwhelmingly Thursday to extend a $400 increase in the child tax
>credit
>to low- and middle-income parents as well as to some married couples who make
>too much under current law to qualify for the full credit. The measure passed
>on a 94-2 vote."
>
>Vickie
Oh YES indeed, Vickie! Thank you for noticing this, the main theme of this
column.
Marian
but of course they will not. That was the purpose of the Fair Labor Standards
Act of the thirties, and this will go a long way toward dismantling it~which
would be fine with you. Right?
Marian
>I don't see a problem with this. Workers will still have the option of
>working
>overtime or not. Besides it'll create lots of jobs to fill the demand for
>the
>extra time to fulfill the demand for the work not performed.
>--
>Regards,
>Clark, Still Free in Round Rock Texas USA
>"Vickie" <vbfr...@aol.comatose> wrote in message
>news:20030606122159...@mb-m10.aol.com...
*****************************************************************
toci
vaguist who wrote it to you. Don't you think attribution is in order?
I'm so glad you snipped the trash and left just the complimentary
stuff, though. Toci
Marian
bridge had nothing whatsoever to do with the "peace effort", but with the
never-ending effort to make Dubya look "presidential", specifically for his
re-election ads. Molly nailed it with her "Stagecraft Administration". LOL!
Since Nixon's 5:00 o'clock shadow during the debates with JFK, we've learned
the importance of public relations. Dubya's people, however, take it into the
stratosphere, but then they *have* to, don't they? <G>
This is from Slate's summary of the major papers on May 16:
"Look for this one!
And just when you thought you couldn't read another story about
the Bush administration's artful manipulation of the news media,
the NYT runs a surprisingly compelling front-page piece
introducing us to the event-planners who make the magic happen.
Buttressed by approving quotes from Michael Deaver, Ronald
Reagan's famed image-maker, the NYT also introduces us to a new
adjective: Sforzian, after Scott Sforza the former ABC producer
who works in the White House communications office and is
instrumental in orchestrating the president's television-friendly
events. Sforza conceived Bush's message-of-the-day backdrops and
choreographed the shlock-and-awe extravaganza aboard the U.S.S
Abraham Lincoln, where he the Times says he "embedded himself"
days in advance to make preparations for Bush's arrival..."
Marian
>So what? If building a bridge over His Highness' swimming helps the peace
>effort, it's a good investment. Indications are that it will.
>
>That aircraft carrier positioning flap is another lie. The San Diego skyline
>had nothing to do with it. A carrier must sail into the wind to launch or
>receive landing airplanes. That was the only reason that carrier was on that
>heading.
>
>Liberals aren't stupid. They just lie when it suits their purposes.
>
>--
>Regards,
>Clark, Still Free in Round Rock Texas USA
>
>"Marian" quoted Molly in message:
>> [...]But I was pleased to see that the Stagecraft Administration has already
set
>up
>> the "money shot" for this peace conference, whether any progress is made or
>> not. The New York Times reports the Big Photo-Op is ready to go. The
>president
>> and the two prime ministers are to appear together on a bridge over the
>> swimming pool behind the King of Jordan's palace.
>>
>> "White House operatives had the Jordanians build a bridge over the pool,
>> officials said, so that the leaders could walk over the water, side by
>side,
>> toward the massed cameras. When the first bridge proved too narrow for more
>> than one man to cross at once, the Americans had the Jordanians tear it
>down
>> and start over, officials said."
>>
>>
>> This is the kind of attention to detail that got that aircraft carrier
>turned
>> around so when Bush landed on it, we couldn't see San Diego in the
>background.
>> Some details are more important than others in this administration.
>>
*****************************************************************
Marian
>Vickie wrote:
>>> Well, thank goodness they yanked it from yesterday's schedule after
>failing
>>to
>>> find enough votes to pass it..BUT they *will* try again. They've already
>>vowed
>>> to reschedule the vote. I've done all I can do -- written to my
>>congressman,
>>> etc.
>
>JD wrote:
>>Vickie, this kind of thing has been tried in one way or the other many,
>>many times in our working life. Its run up the flag pole to see who
>>salutes, that's all.
>
>Well, in all my research one thing became clear -- big bidness is the only
>one
>saluting it.
>
>Another thing is clear -- that it would save employers money on overtime
>pay...
>the working stiff would be paid less. Employers would be able to get more
>hours
>of work out of employees each week without having to pay overtime wages.
>
>Employers would get to substitute comp time for overtime, and the EMPLOYERS
>get
>the right to decide when -- even if -- a worker gets to take his/her comp
>time.
>This bill would provide no protection against employers asking workers to
>take
>time off instead of cash...and no protection against employers giving
>overtime
>only to workers who agree to take the time off instead of cash.
>
>Vickie wrote:
>>> I have several relatives who work for Goodyear and depend on overtime to
>>make
>>> ends meet. What good is more time off if you lose the roof over your head?
>
>JD wrote:
>>No disrespect intended, but is it possible they spent more than they
>>could afford to spend? (credit) On the other side of that 'coin' is some
>>folks who work more, or have a second job, or another family member at
>>work not because they spent too much, but because taxes have taken too much.
>
>I don't balance their checkbooks so I can only speak about what I see from
>the
>outside. It sure doesn't look like they are living beyond their means. One
>Daddy is currently working overtime because they have two kids who need
>braces.
>As good as it is, the Goodyear medical plan won't cover it all...they have to
>come up with around $500 for *each* child.
>
>Vickie
Marian
disappear for awhile... I'm looking forward to your sabbatical. It's past time.
Marian
>Marian,
>
>I'm proud of this country. I'd gladly wrap myself in our flag. I don't
>live in a fantasy world like you do. You have continually hated every
>Republican past and present on this Newsgroup. Even Reagan, the man who
>helped destroy the Soviet Union and who is now a very ill man. In spite of
>his illness, you openly said you "Hated Reagan". You didn't even know you
>live in a Republican dominated State. Your hatred of anything or anyone of
>the center right is spiteful. I would imagine your car, if you have one,
>only has left turn signals on it. When you find one person that shares your
>views you act like a lone cheerleader. And how silly you look welcoming them
>to the Group. Others who join usually get a "What he/she said" greeting.
>Most of these are foreigner's and of the Marxist persuasion, but then you
>wouldn't realize that. They infest the Internet looking for home grown
>discontent's like you. It gives them the reason to stay.
>
>While you read all of your favorite Award winning desk jockey writers, and
>especially those in the World's Finest Newspaper, the NYT (I assume you have
>read all of the Newspaper's in the World to make that statement and wonder
>how much Chinese you know, or any other language for that matter) it's
>Publisher hangs his head in shame and disgust. I think he should read his
>paper sometime and see just what is happening to it.
>
>Maybe forgetfulness isn't one of your problems but a total lack of knowledge
>blocked by your hatred and constant pandering of Copyrighted materials that
>don't belong on a newsgroup like this is.
>
>You, Marian have attacked many people on this group personally. You, Marian
>deserve to be attacked personally because you Marian are not a patriot as
>you claim to be. You are just one person who likes to complain about
>everything political. A patriot Marian would not make the statement you did
>about fleeing with your Son to escape the Draft. Of course in a Democratic
>War in Viet Nam many did and were pardoned by another Democrat. Think about
>that Marian
>
>My fantasy is that you would just disappear from this group and go to one of
>those that loves radicals. That would give me a very warm fuzzy feeling.
>As usual I don't know what "Boom Boom" means. It must be those little
>voices you hear in your wee little under used brain.
>
>Have a nice day, and please try to find a Newsgroup somewhere else that fits
>your needs so we can rebuild this Group into a fun place (you probably don't
>know what fun is do you?) that it once was.
>
>Don
>> Not so. Folk who don't want to hear a contrary opinion take themselves
>off.
>> Nothing to do with me, though I do hate this radical Bush government and
>what
>> they're doing to my country.
>>
>> And you also got the facts wrong the last time you attacked me personally.
>> Forgetfulness isn't one of my problems...
>>
>> Wrap yourself in the flag and keep your fantasies warm, Don. Boom boom.
>>
>> Marian
Marian
Marian
>"DAE" <d.e...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>Marian,
>>
>>I'm proud of this country. I'd gladly wrap myself in our flag. I don't
>>live in a fantasy world like you do. You have continually hated every
>>Republican past and present on this Newsgroup. Even Reagan, the man who
>>helped destroy the Soviet Union and who is now a very ill man. In spite
>of
>>his illness, you openly said you "Hated Reagan". You didn't even know you
>>live in a Republican dominated State. Your hatred of anything or anyone
>of
>>the center right is spiteful. I would imagine your car, if you have one,
>>only has left turn signals on it. When you find one person that shares
>your
>>views you act like a lone cheerleader. And how silly you look welcoming
>them
>>to the Group. Others who join usually get a "What he/she said" greeting.
>>Most of these are foreigner's and of the Marxist persuasion, but then you
>>wouldn't realize that. They infest the Internet looking for home grown
>>discontent's like you. It gives them the reason to stay.
>
>WTF??? I really don't understand this whole "You don't agree with Bush and
>the Administration and the 'Coalition of the Willing' so you must be a
>Marxist"
>thing--and if they were, is this a group where "foreigner's" (sic), Marxist
>or no, are not welcome?
>
>>
>>While you read all of your favorite Award winning desk jockey writers, and
>>especially those in the World's Finest Newspaper, the NYT (I assume you
>have
>>read all of the Newspaper's in the World to make that statement and wonder
>>how much Chinese you know, or any other language for that matter) it's
>>Publisher hangs his head in shame and disgust. I think he should read his
>>paper sometime and see just what is happening to it.
>
>I seem to remember Marian mentioning that she reads many different news sites
>every day but those who would attack her always pick on the fact that she
>reads the NYT--a paper I would still trust more for information despite what
>happened with one reporter (though I too read news from many sources) before
>one of the alarmist Murdoch outlets, but that's my choice--if you don't like
>the damn paper don't read it or postings derived from it.
>
>>
>>Maybe forgetfulness isn't one of your problems but a total lack of knowledge
>>blocked by your hatred and constant pandering of Copyrighted materials that
>>don't belong on a newsgroup like this is.
>
>And so here it is again--Marian posts a column by Molly Ivins (a writer I
>happen to like) or someone else who doesn't appeal to some of the folks in
>here and she is attacked for reposting copyrighted material--not claiming
>it as her own, mind you, but always properly attributed. I think it's easier
>to read an article included within a posting since I have a slow computer
>and leaving to go to a linked news site usually involves having my browser
>freeze up while all the pop-ups from the site load. I really don't see why
>this should be a problem, unless some people have newsreaders that have a
>hard time loading such long posts.
>
> Marian is also accused of not thinking for herself when she posts someone
>else's writing, not having ideas of her own and so forth--but how many
>articles
>have been posted by Tex with no comment but his signature, and how many posts
>consisting entirely of quotes has Keith made in answer to posts from other
>people? Even Leighann before she left posted a bunch of stuff from sources
>like the National Review and Ann Coulter--I thought all of it was utter shite
>and so after a paragraph or so stopped reading, but I certainly wouldn't
>tell Leighann to think for herself--if she agreed with what the articles
>said then fine. But others praise these postings by Tex and Keith and
>Leighann
>because they happen to agree with those particular copyrighted items--and
>why not, if they agree?--but Marian gets attacked. Whether you agree with
>her or not it isn't fair--disagree with the article if you feel strongly
>about it but why hold a double standard?
>
>
>>
>>You, Marian have attacked many people on this group personally. You, Marian
>>deserve to be attacked personally because you Marian are not a patriot as
>>you claim to be.
>
>I won't say that in my relatively short time here I have never seen Marian
>attack anyone--I have--but often it is in response to an attack from someone
>else, and I have much more often seen folks gang up on Marian, and have seen
>her attacked for no reason (for example: when she couldn't open a link from
>a post yesterday and said "I can't get it" and someone very kindly chimed
>in "well no wonder!"--how sweet. At least JD--though he rarely agrees with
>her--had the class to explain what she was missing). She's accused of being
>witless, not thinking for herself, being a troublemaker--and what was that
>line? "leftist lunatics?" With sweet nothings like that not only is Marian
>being attacked but anyone (like myself) who leans to the left. And I have
>also on many occasions seen Marian respond to non-political posts in the
>kindest and sweetest way imaginable, even to people she normally doesn't
>agree with, at least politically speaking. So don't paint her as a bitch
>or a hate-monger if you aren't willing to practice what you preach. Maybe
>if everyone--including Marian--calmed down their "attacks" people wouldn't
>leave the group. I don't think it's realistic to say that political
>discussions
>have no place in this kind of group--if they upset you don't read them--but
>I also don't think that it's realistic to expect someone--myself included
>:) --who is consistently called a fool and a lunatic and witless to not have
>a strong reaction.
>
>
>You are just one person who likes to complain about
>>everything political. A patriot Marian would not make the statement you
>did
>>about fleeing with your Son to escape the Draft. Of course in a Democratic
>>War in Viet Nam many did and were pardoned by another Democrat. Think about
>>that Marian
>
>And a Republican pardoned Nixon--what's your point? Being a "patriot" does
>not mean "my country right or wrong" to everyone--you can love your country
>and still hate what its government is doing. If Marian or I or anyone else
>who spoke out against the war or any particular administration really hated
>the country I imagine that we couldn't care less about what was done with
>it--we could leave, I suppose, if that were feasible, but we wouldn't care
>enough to object. If I had been a male of draft age during the Vietnam war
>I would have headed north as well, not out of hatred for America but because
>I couldn't imagine killing others or facing death myself in a conflict that
>I thought this country should have had no part in. I don't see how "duty"
>and "patriotism" could justify bringing about death for a cause you believe
>to be wrong. So I guess that makes me a Marxist :)
>
>>
>>My fantasy is that you would just disappear from this group and go to one
>of
>>those that loves radicals. That would give me a very warm fuzzy feeling.
>>As usual I don't know what "Boom Boom" means. It must be those little
>>voices you hear in your wee little under used brain.
>>
>>Have a nice day, and please try to find a Newsgroup somewhere else that
>fits
>>your needs so we can rebuild this Group into a fun place (you probably don't
>>know what fun is do you?) that it once was.
>
>I for one would not like to see you go, Marian--not that I think you would,
>just thought I'd say it :) I don't agree with absolutely everything you
>say in your posts--and I agree with far less in the posts of many people
>here, but I recognize that they have their good points as well :)
>
>I'm really sorry that Leighann left--I'll miss the bunny stories :(
>At any rate, I've been lurking for a couple of days--haven't been writing
>mostly because I was too tired-- and thinking of taking off myself--sorry
>for the extra-long post but I'm a little sick of the acrimony.
>
>Anyway--
>
>merg
>
>
>
>>Don
>>
>>
>>"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>news:20030605225715...@mb-m26.aol.com...
>>> >
>>
>>>
>>> Not so. Folk who don't want to hear a contrary opinion take themselves
>>off.
>>> Nothing to do with me, though I do hate this radical Bush government and
>>what
>>> they're doing to my country.
>>>
>>> And you also got the facts wrong the last time you attacked me personally.
>>> Forgetfulness isn't one of my problems...
>>>
>>> Wrap yourself in the flag and keep your fantasies warm, Don. Boom boom.
>>>
>>> Marian
>>>
>>> >> Like Maureen, another woman who tells it like it is. I didn't know
>this
>>> >about
>>> >> that bridge...What a hoot. Marian<G>
>>> >>
>>> >> IVINS: Working for Nothing~Molly Ivins, AlterNet~June 5, 2003
>>> >>
>>> >> AUSTIN, Texas -- "I said you were a man of peace. I want you to know
>I
>>> >took
>>> >> immense crap for that." George W. Bush, diplomat
Sinclair
Tory.
Sinclair
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030607143942...@mb-m02.aol.com...
Sinclair
--
Regards,
Clark, Still Free in Round Rock Texas USA
http://BlockSpamNow.com/r/21571 - Spam Terminator
http://xld.com - Freedom's Home Page
"JD Cooper" <no-pr...@fun.net> wrote in message
news:3EDFF980...@fun.net...
> Marian wrote: Nothing, but instead posted some thoughts of another
> person.
>
> I thought it interesting earlier today that Sinclair had the incoherence
> of thought to describe you as a "left of center thinker"
>
> Truth is that you do not think and are incapable of thinking. In your
> own words you have stated as much when you have typed. "(Molly Ivans)
> speaks for me~word for word."
>
> You have yet to speak, "(name) speaks *to* me".
Sinclair
Marian
>
>>Enough,
>>
>>Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>And that was just about the only decent word in that post.
>
>--
>Loes
Indeed yes, Loes. Enough is *truly* enough. Don is exceeding himself in ugly
posts lately.
Marian
your time & patience. Have at him, but don't let him get you down, you hear?
Yours is a necessary [merkan] voice here...
Marian
>"DAE" <d.e...@attbi.com> wrote:
> is this a group where "foreigner's" (sic),
>>Marxist
>>> or no, are not welcome?
>>
>>If you don't understand it why are you commenting on it?
>
>I don't understand it, which is why asked the question--and the second
>question,
>which I see you didn't answer--so would you please?
Marian
>writes:
>
>>. . . She made a comment that the NYT was the finest newspaper in the world.
>
>I
>>replied to her comment which is now front page news. It isn't! . . .
>
>Agreed. The finest paper in the world is the Wall Street Journal. Opinions
>may vary.
>
>k :)
The WSJ is one of the best, IF you can avoid its editorial page... The NYTimes
is still the world's leading newspaper.
Marian
Marian
>I am here for the fun and friendship, not to be brainwashed. I have no other
>comment regarding that.
LOL!
The rest of his pompous silliness is snipped. He dearly *loves* piling on, and
soooo many folk are encouraging him lately. Baffling!
Marian
Oh quite, Ellis. They do need reminding of their manners. This is surely a
rhetorical question? If they *really* want to run me off, they will first run
off those who make this an international newsgroup. I wouldn't be interested in
an ultra-right wing ng which they seem to insist we should become...all in the
name of patriotism, of course. Marian
Marian
Clark. Marxists? Puleeeze. Marian
>Foreigners are people who live in a foreign country. At least from my
>vantage
>point. Many of those who post here are are of the Marxist persuasion whether
>they think so or not.
>
>And yes, it's a multi-national group.
>
>--
>Regards,
>Clark, Still Free in Round Rock Texas USA
>> > >Most of these are foreigner's and of the Marxist persuasion, but then
>you
>> > >wouldn't realize that. They infest the Internet looking for home grown
>> > >discontent's like you. It gives them the reason to stay.
>> >
>> > WTF??? I really don't understand this whole "You don't agree with Bush
>and
>> > the Administration and the 'Coalition of the Willing' so you must be a
>> Marxist"
>> > thing--and if they were, is this a group where "foreigner's" (sic),
>> Marxist
>> > or no, are not welcome?
>>
>> Can somebody please tell me who is classified as a foreigner...I thought
>> this was a multi-national group?
>> And how come all foreigners are of the Marxist persuasion?
>>
>> Ellis
*****************************************************************
Lone Star
Somehow, I knew you would get your jollies from that post Marian.
Robert
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Marian
self-evident that I believed my sources were qualitatively better than anything
I could access via cable. The only thing I miss is C-Span... Marian
>Mergatroid wrote in part:
>
>> I seem to remember Marian mentioning that she reads many different news
>sites
>> every day but those who would attack her always pick on the fact that she
>> reads the NYT--a paper I would still trust more for information despite
>what
>> happened with one reporter (though I too read news from many sources)
>before
>> one of the alarmist Murdoch outlets, but that's my choice--if you don't
>like
>> the damn paper don't read it or postings derived from it.
>
>OK... I will respond to only one part, Merg.. and that is Marians "many"
>sources. By her own words, I post below her total informational input:
>
>--------begin discussion---------------
>
>>>>Guess we just watch/read/listen to different media, JD. Marian
>>>
>>>Guess what, Marian... we have the same "media" here as you do. The very
>>>same.
>>>
>>>JD
>>
>>
>> Well, we have *access* to the same media, and lots of choices, JD, but I'd
>be
>> surprised if our choices *ever* overlapped.
>>
>> For example, a week before 9/11, my NPR station [npr.org] went over from
>> classical music to ALL news & info, so in addition to All Things Considered
>and
>> Morning Edition, I have call-in/interview programs on current events [not
>shock
>> radio], a couple of hours of the BBC during the day and from 11pm-5am, and
>an
>> hour or 2 from Canada in the evening. And my radio set to this station is
>on
>> all the hours that I am awake. I don't have cable, so never watch Fox,
>MSNBC or
>> CNN, and rarely watch the commercial networks' news, but I never miss PBS'
>news
>> and info programs. Marian
>
>All very familiar. Still, that would leave me with more options than you
>and therefore more informed because of so many sources. JD
>
>> I read the NYTimes online everyday & some of the WP and the LATimes... See
>the
>> difference?
>>
>> Marian
>
>So do I. Also some other papers. So explain again the difference except
>that you are limited..
>
>JD
>
>------end------
>
>There were no further responses.
>
>JD
Lone Star
.
Ellis wrote:
>>> You can stick your head back up your ass now!
>>>
>>
>>
>> Oh VERY nicely put, Ellis... Thank you!
>>
>> Marian
> Nicely put Marian???? PLONK!!!! <guess you don't read all your
> propaganda you cut and paste, as this gutter talk suits you mo bettar!!! >
> Faith
LOL!!!! She probably had to go take a cold shower after reading Ellis'
post over and over and over.
Robert
>
Marian
the globe? Liberals, Tories, Labor ALL despise the U.S. [government of
GWBush]... Marian with sadness
>Marian doesn't hate every right winger, I am and have been all my life a
>Tory.
>
>Sinclair
>> Nonsense, Don. You do this periodically, then later apologize for it, then
Marian
>>
>>Marian
>Nicely put Marian???? PLONK!!!! <guess you don't read all your
>propaganda you cut and paste, as this gutter talk suits you mo bettar!!! >
>Faith
Well, I haven't read your posts for years myself, Faith, except when you
respond in a thread I'm following. Ellis tells it like it is. Pulls no punches.
I like him very much. Marian
>>>>You are such a pathetic bore, same as Sinclair and now his "brother" who
>>>>has joined and I am quite certain a "ringer" as is Sinclair. I am fairly
>>>>certain who is their mentor, but you, Dear, are in a class all by
>>>>yourself. You are too stupid.
>>>>
>>>>JD
Ellis responds:
DAE
It is American dummy. Not Merkan. Her voice is neccessary here. It drowns
out yours.
Don
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030607154309...@mb-m15.aol.com...
DAE
And you are still a hermit in the hills of N.C.. So what else is new.
Don
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030607154527...@mb-m15.aol.com...
DAE
The entire world is baffling to a babbling baboon like you. Oh well,
graduating from the U of K, what can you expect. Did you ever learn to walk
level after leaving the hills?
Don
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030607154843...@mb-m15.aol.com...
Marian
>yes, I call Marian stupid and so she me. Still, I was addressing
>her, not you, and I fail to see what your vested interest is here.
Ellis can be forgiven if he hasn't been here long enought to divine the
oh-so-subtle nuances among you Texas rightwingers, JD. I appreciate this post
very much, as I've said... Marian
>Ellis wrote, and *WAY* off base, I might add:
>
>> And you are just another inbred racist dumb fuck like that faggot boyfriend
>> of yours....your brand of Americanism give assholes a bad name...no wonder
>> terrorists wanna blow the shit outta you....I've flushed away turds with
>> more intelligence than you have..
>
>hmmm... First I assume you thought I was speaking of you. This was an
>assumption on your part that contained quite a number of errors and I
>shall take a minute from my labors to address them. Second, I'd like to
>know who my "faggot boyfriend" is. I haven't aclue, but since I seem to
>be sucking his dick I guess I oughta know his name, don't you think?
>
>Well, anyway, as to the first:
>
>> If you took your heads out your asses long enough you might find that
>> America is not the only land of freedom and opportunity and all those other
>> pathetic slogans you like to give yourself...nor are all foreigners Marxist
>> or part of some great conspiracy to undermine George Bush or the American
>> way of life.
>
>I never assumed this country was the "only" anything as you assume. I
>have not stated as much. Also, I have not once stated that all
>foreigners are Marxist and have never assumed as much. I have not used
>the word toward anyone that I recall. (Perhaps you confuse me with
>someone else?) As far as George Bush is concerned, if you'd have paid
>much attention to conversations herein you'd have noticed that I do not
>like him nor did I like his Dad. I was also against the action in Iraq,
>but for reasons that differed from most folks here and yet I am still
>considered, what was your words, Head Stuck up my Ass?
>
>> A way of life that's a damn sight harder than mine is....I never struggled
>> to make ends meet...had to work Christmas days...worry about keeping a roof
>> over my head....worry about overtime....and I retired at 36...come and go
>as
>> I please...get up when I please...do what I please...think and say what I
>> please...own my own home...don't owe anybody anything...never have to worry
>> about money...and never have to buy anything on credit...
>> If you think that's Marxism then maybe your subscribing to the wrong
>> doctrine...
>
>I never once said my life, nor the lives of most Americans, was "easy".
>Once again you have paid little attention. By the description of your
>life as worded above, I can only assume you inherited some wealth. That
>is very nice. I sometimes wish I had, but I live in a place where one
>usually makes his own way. I work very hard and have come to the
>conclusion that I enjoy being useful and needed. I am living comfortably
>and assume I will continue to do so, but I am not lazy. I tend to be
>very active because I cannot bare to be bored. I suffer "cabin fever" at
>the drop of a hat and have been told I am "hyperactive". I think that is
>a rather crude way to describe my will to be busy doing something
>constructive all the time. I am most happy that you do not have to worry
>about money. It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. It also makes you
>something of a snoot because a great number of the regular subscribers
>to this news group are not as blessed as you and I am certain they are
>bemused to hear you brag of it so. Also, it is nice that you can get out
>of bed when you want to... problem is that you miss prime fishing hours
>and that, sir, is a quality of life loss that is tragic! I cherish those
>early dawn mornings with my kids, casting baits into the still waters in
>hopes that the depths would boil with the action of a lunker affixed to
>their lines!
>
>Sleeping late is laziness.
>
>> So much for the American dream....it's just that...a dream....propaganda
>> that you are fed on from the day you were born...and you consider yourself
>> an astute political animal? You don't have a clue...no matter what part of
>> the political spectrum you subscribe to you are nothing but cannon fodder
>in
>> the eyes of your political leaders whoever they are...you're just a vote
>> nothing more nothing less. All leaders, all countries.
>> When the body bags come back from a war zone all a president worries about
>> is public opinion..lost votes..not the poor souls inside them...and that
>> could be you...your kids...your grandkids...for this you carry on like a
>> pack of rabid dogs?
>
>Had you bothered to pay attention, it has only been a week or two when I
>stated in this very news group that the American dream is dead. I also
>have stated many times that we are, in your words, cannon fodder, for
>politicians. I learned that from LBJ in the late sixties. As to my
>political persuasion, I have stated many, many times that I am
>completely and total independent and beholding to no political party. I
>am personally very conservative, but nobody, NOBODY commands my vote by
>way of a party affiliation. I vote for people from all parties based on
>what and who they say they are, not by their party affiliation. Also, if
>you'd paid any attention, you'd also know that I trust NO politician.
>None. Zero. I have stated that I "respect" Dr. Ron Paul, but I trust him
>no further that I can physically throw that 1100 pound bay stallion just
>outside my window.
>>
>> And you call Marian stupid...she was right to brand you fascists because
>you
>> behave like Hitlers brown shirts....stifling any opposition real or
>> imaginary...and in my case most definately imaginary...Marxist, my ass!
>> Not much difference between you and Saddam's political police accept they
>> were pro's and you're just a bunch of sad ass amateurs trying to be big
>fish
>> in a small pool....pathetic...
>
>There is the "marxist" word again. You have me confused with someone
>else. I have not used that word. Why are you continuing to use it? I
>don't recall Marian calling me a fascist. I have read that she thinks
>the Bush administration is heading down the line of fascism but I am not
>a member of the admin.. Fish again, huh? I do not understand what you
>are saying there, but have you been fishing recently? As to the rest of
>it; yes, I call Marian stupid and so she me. Still, I was addressing
>her, not you, and I fail to see what your vested interest is here.
>
>
>> Thank Christ not all Americans are sad losers like a few of you in
>> here...you'd be at home in a schoolyard...beating up on the black kid...
>
>Beating up on the black kid? My, my! I'd gladly toss in some historical
>accounts of the British treatment of people of color, but I shall
>refrain because the Empire is gone and times have changed and it is
>hardly worth fighting about.
>
>> You can stick your head back up your ass now!
>
>I rarely do that.
>
>I parting I'd like you to know that I hang out on some UK news groups.
>They are groups of the rural persuasion. I became interested some years
>ago because of diseases that struck England's animals and I have a
>vested interest in it. That aside, I have noticed that Brits can be the
>most intently insulting creatures with one another I have ever seen.
>They can cut one another down with such acrimony as I cannot muster, but
>they do it without a single word of profanity or crudeness. In this news
>group are some Brits who have often shot words at me that are somewhat
>less than kind, but I had it coming. Your words at me defy
>understanding. What did I do to you?
>
>In other words:
>
>Why are you on my case? I ask because I have only recently noticed your
>arrival and have yet to address you. Who the heck are you, BTW?
>
>JD
>
>PS: Hey! Google me Look me up! Se if I have ever called anyone a Marxist
>or anything else you seem to think I have said.
DAE
In the 50's they were Commies. Today they are Marxist's. Get up to date
will you.
Don
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030607155525...@mb-m15.aol.com...
**Dalin**
>>>Oh VERY nicely put, Ellis... Thank you!
>>>
>>>Marian
>
>>Nicely put Marian???? PLONK!!!! <guess you don't read all your
>>propaganda you cut and paste, as this gutter talk suits you mo bettar!!! >
>>Faith
>
>Well, I haven't read your posts for years myself, Faith, except when you
>respond in a thread I'm following. Ellis tells it like it is. Pulls no punches.
>I like him very much. Marian
>
Having been gone for two weeks, and Ellis being fairly new, I have no
idea of his political leanings. As you know, I skip most political
posts anyway. But after reading his last post which was included in
another post, my opinion of Ellis is that he is a snot-nosed kid who
crawled out of the gutter and no decent woman would give him the time
of day. He would do well to learn to express himself in words that
don't offend most of the decent people on this newsgroup!
Dalin
toci
Sorry, Keith (and JD) I don't usually get you two mixed up with each other. Toci
Marian
>> >> has joined and I am quite certain a "ringer" as is Sinclair. I am fairly
>> >> certain who is their mentor, but you, Dear, are in a class all by
>> >> yourself. You are too stupid.
>> >>
>> >> JD
>> >And you are just another inbred racist dumb fuck like that faggot
>boyfriend
>> >of yours....your brand of Americanism give assholes a bad name...no wonder
>> >terrorists wanna blow the shit outta you... <TRASH SNIPPED>
>> Ah yes, another kind and *respectful* leftist.
>>
>> k
>Gee, JD- that was the first thing in the thread and I don't have the
>vaguist who wrote it to you. Don't you think attribution is in order?
> I'm so glad you snipped the trash and left just the complimentary
>stuff, though. Toci
Toci, JD wrote that to me. Ellis responded at length. Keith commented on this
last, calling him a leftist. Hope this clarifys it for you. Marian
DAE
You talking about running people off, you've done a lot of that. Most
people don't want to be bombarded by your bombastic bull. (Just used half
the word.)
As far as manners, I don't think you ever had any nor did you use them if
you did. I guess that comes from living alone and liking it.......for 30+
years huh?
Don
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030607155339...@mb-m15.aol.com...
DAE
Can't add anything because its true. Wow, miracles do happen.
Don
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030607144203...@mb-m02.aol.com...
DAE
Not now Marian, as I'm having so much fun watching you make a fool out of
yourself. The ultra left Queen. Ever going to get some right directional
signals for your car, or buggy?
Don
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030607143942...@mb-m02.aol.com...
> Nonsense, Don. You do this periodically, then later apologize for it, then
> disappear for awhile... I'm looking forward to your sabbatical. It's past
time.
> Marian
>
> >Marian,
> >
> >I'm proud of this country. I'd gladly wrap myself in our flag. I don't
> >live in a fantasy world like you do. You have continually hated every
> >Republican past and present on this Newsgroup. Even Reagan, the man who
> >helped destroy the Soviet Union and who is now a very ill man. In spite
of
> >his illness, you openly said you "Hated Reagan". You didn't even know
you
> >live in a Republican dominated State. Your hatred of anything or anyone
of
> >the center right is spiteful. I would imagine your car, if you have one,
> >only has left turn signals on it. When you find one person that shares
your
> >views you act like a lone cheerleader. And how silly you look welcoming
them
> >to the Group. Others who join usually get a "What he/she said" greeting.
> >Most of these are foreigner's and of the Marxist persuasion, but then you
> >wouldn't realize that. They infest the Internet looking for home grown
> >discontent's like you. It gives them the reason to stay.
> >
> >While you read all of your favorite Award winning desk jockey writers,
and
> >especially those in the World's Finest Newspaper, the NYT (I assume you
have
> >read all of the Newspaper's in the World to make that statement and
wonder
> >how much Chinese you know, or any other language for that matter) it's
> >Publisher hangs his head in shame and disgust. I think he should read
his
> >paper sometime and see just what is happening to it.
> >
> >Maybe forgetfulness isn't one of your problems but a total lack of
knowledge
> >blocked by your hatred and constant pandering of Copyrighted materials
that
> >don't belong on a newsgroup like this is.
> >
> >You, Marian have attacked many people on this group personally. You,
Marian
> >deserve to be attacked personally because you Marian are not a patriot as
> >you claim to be. You are just one person who likes to complain about
> >everything political. A patriot Marian would not make the statement you
did
> >about fleeing with your Son to escape the Draft. Of course in a
Democratic
> >War in Viet Nam many did and were pardoned by another Democrat. Think
about
> >that Marian
> >
> >My fantasy is that you would just disappear from this group and go to one
of
> >those that loves radicals. That would give me a very warm fuzzy feeling.
> >As usual I don't know what "Boom Boom" means. It must be those little
> >voices you hear in your wee little under used brain.
> >
> >Have a nice day, and please try to find a Newsgroup somewhere else that
fits
> >your needs so we can rebuild this Group into a fun place (you probably
don't
> >know what fun is do you?) that it once was.
> >
> >Don
>
> >> Not so. Folk who don't want to hear a contrary opinion take themselves
> >off.
> >> Nothing to do with me, though I do hate this radical Bush government
and
> >what
> >> they're doing to my country.
> >>
> >> And you also got the facts wrong the last time you attacked me
personally.
> >> Forgetfulness isn't one of my problems...
> >>
> >> Wrap yourself in the flag and keep your fantasies warm, Don. Boom boom.
> >>
> >> Marian
>
DAE
We don't have them over here Sinclair. Must be a British thing, but then
you are a rock farmer, ex-pat Brit in France aren't you? Do you vote in
both countries? Good work while your rocks grow.
Don
"Sinclair" <labeh...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:bbtc6s$40i$1...@news-reader13.wanadoo.fr...
DAE
And you are making your effort to help in the hate directed at the
Administration too. Remember, this is a worldwide audience your writing
too.
Don
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030607161328...@mb-m15.aol.com...
JD Cooper
>
> >From: JD Cooper no-pr...@fun.com
> >Date: 6/6/03
>
> [The Family Time Flexibility Act]
>
> Vickie wrote:
> >> Well, thank goodness they yanked it from yesterday's schedule after failing
> >to
> >> find enough votes to pass it..BUT they *will* try again. They've already
> >vowed
> >> to reschedule the vote. I've done all I can do -- written to my
> >congressman,
> >> etc.
>
> JD wrote:
> >Vickie, this kind of thing has been tried in one way or the other many,
> >many times in our working life. Its run up the flag pole to see who
> >salutes, that's all.
>
> Well, in all my research one thing became clear -- big bidness is the only one
> saluting it.
NONONO! Vickie! You got it wrong! "big bidness" *AUTHORS* the bills.
They buy the politicos and then write the bills and the servants
(politicos) present them.
snip and Ferget the rest, it is heeeee-stwaaaa and usless now.
:-)
JD
JD Cooper
>
> JD, responding to Ellis:
> >yes, I call Marian stupid and so she me. Still, I was addressing
> >her, not you, and I fail to see what your vested interest is here.
>
> Ellis can be forgiven if he hasn't been here long enought to divine the
> oh-so-subtle nuances among you Texas rightwingers, JD. I appreciate this post
> very much, as I've said... Marian
Well, That's OK with me, Marian, but you never struck me as the type to
need anyone to defend you. You are as strong minded as I am for heavens
sake! Besides, you once again fail to remember that I am TOTALLY
independent. I am conservative to the bone, but I have no wings with
which to take flight. You, my dear, have them wings and you fly just
fine to the left and in circles! 'round and 'round and 'round!
JD
DAE
Have you ever worked for a living after raising your kids, or even before?
I don't think anyone has ever asked that question. It would be interesting
to know.
Don
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030607142244...@mb-m02.aol.com...
> Well, you wouldn't, Clark. You assume the workers will still have the
option,
> but of course they will not. That was the purpose of the Fair Labor
Standards
> Act of the thirties, and this will go a long way toward dismantling
it~which
> would be fine with you. Right?
>
> Marian
>
> >I don't see a problem with this. Workers will still have the option of
> >working
> >overtime or not. Besides it'll create lots of jobs to fill the demand
for
> >the
> >extra time to fulfill the demand for the work not performed.
> >--
> >Regards,
> >Clark, Still Free in Round Rock Texas USA
>
> >"Vickie" <vbfr...@aol.comatose> wrote in message
> >news:20030606122159...@mb-m10.aol.com...
> >>
> >> "I object! It's immaterial and an elephant!"
> >>
> >> Y'all remind me of an ol' Marx Bros. movie...so busy name-calling and
> >> one-upping that you didn't see something important that Molly was
trying to
> >> warn us about....
> >> ~~
> >> "The House will take up getting rid of the 40-hour workweek on June 5.
[..]
> >> repealing the Fair Labor Standards Act -- in place since the 1930s [..]
> >this
> >> particular bill to screw workers is misleadingly titled the Family Time
> >> Flexibility Act.
> >>
> >> [..] The only enforcement mechanism in the 40-hour work week is that
> >employers
> >> have to pay time-and-a-half if they make you work more than 40
hours.[..]
> >Under
> >> this charmer if you work overtime, your employer can pay you with
straight
> >comp
> >> time, one hour for one hour, instead of time-and-a-half wages, thus
saving
> >the
> >> corporations millions.
> >>
> >> [..] If your employer doesn't have to pay you any extra for working
> >overtime,
> >> why shouldn't he/she work you 'til you drop? Lots of families depend on
> >> overtime pay just to make it through the month.[..]
> >>
> >> [..] If an employer can overwork the people he's got now without paying
> >extra,
> >> why would he hire additional employees? It's bad for the economy. This
> >doesn't
> >> "give" workers flexibility, it takes away their right to get
> >time-and-a-half.
> >>
> >> People, I mentioned the other day that it takes more than singing "I'm
> >Proud
> >to
> >> Be an American" to keep this country free. This is not an abstract,
> >> constitutional right. This is about you getting screwed. If y'all can't
> >stand
> >> up for yourselves on this one, and raise hell with your congresspeople,
you
> >> deserve to work overtime without extra pay. [..] "
> >> ~~
> >> Well, thank goodness they yanked it from yesterday's schedule after
failing
> >to
> >> find enough votes to pass it..BUT they *will* try again. They've
already
> >vowed
> >> to reschedule the vote. I've done all I can do -- written to my
> >congressman,
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> I have several relatives who work for Goodyear and depend on overtime
to
> >make
> >> ends meet. What good is more time off if you lose the roof over your
head?
> >>
> >> PS= More good news for the workin' stiff = "WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) -- The
> >Senate
> >> voted overwhelmingly Thursday to extend a $400 increase in the child
tax
> >credit
> >> to low- and middle-income parents as well as to some married couples
who
> >make
> >> too much under current law to qualify for the full credit. The measure
> >passed
> >> on a 94-2 vote."
> >>
> >> Vickie
JD Cooper
>
> Sure didn't mean to ignore you, JD. I dint have any more to add. It seemed
> self-evident that I believed my sources were qualitatively better than anything
> I could access via cable. The only thing I miss is C-Span... Marian
Speaking of C-Span... Gosh! I recall the days when old HBG would stand
out there on the floor at 0300 and rail and rail about Reagan!
heh! Them were the days!
JD
lamb
And I know, being a proud foreigner myself LOL
Loes
DAE
I remember Clinton wearing a flight jacket with the Presidential Seal patch
on it. Bush not only had that patch but Air Force pilots wings, not Navy
Wings, on his other side of the jacket. That was really neat to see. Too
bad Clinton, Mr. Charisma didn't duck the draft. Maybe he could have had
something to put on his other side of the jacket.
Don
"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030607143437...@mb-m02.aol.com...
> Not a lie at all, Clark. GodsOwnTruth. And don't be silly. Of course, the
> bridge had nothing whatsoever to do with the "peace effort", but with the
> never-ending effort to make Dubya look "presidential", specifically for
his
> re-election ads. Molly nailed it with her "Stagecraft Administration".
LOL!
>
> Since Nixon's 5:00 o'clock shadow during the debates with JFK, we've
learned
> the importance of public relations. Dubya's people, however, take it into
the
> stratosphere, but then they *have* to, don't they? <G>
>
> This is from Slate's summary of the major papers on May 16:
> "Look for this one!
> And just when you thought you couldn't read another story about
> the Bush administration's artful manipulation of the news media,
> the NYT runs a surprisingly compelling front-page piece
> introducing us to the event-planners who make the magic happen.
> Buttressed by approving quotes from Michael Deaver, Ronald
> Reagan's famed image-maker, the NYT also introduces us to a new
> adjective: Sforzian, after Scott Sforza the former ABC producer
> who works in the White House communications office and is
> instrumental in orchestrating the president's television-friendly
> events. Sforza conceived Bush's message-of-the-day backdrops and
> choreographed the shlock-and-awe extravaganza aboard the U.S.S
> Abraham Lincoln, where he the Times says he "embedded himself"
> days in advance to make preparations for Bush's arrival..."
>
> Marian
>
> >So what? If building a bridge over His Highness' swimming helps the
peace
> >effort, it's a good investment. Indications are that it will.
> >
> >That aircraft carrier positioning flap is another lie. The San Diego
skyline
> >had nothing to do with it. A carrier must sail into the wind to launch
or
> >receive landing airplanes. That was the only reason that carrier was on
that
> >heading.
> >
> >Liberals aren't stupid. They just lie when it suits their purposes.
> >
> >--
> >Regards,
> >Clark, Still Free in Round Rock Texas USA
> >
> >"Marian" quoted Molly in message:
> >> [...]But I was pleased to see that the Stagecraft Administration has
already
> set
> >up
> >> the "money shot" for this peace conference, whether any progress is
made or
> >> not. The New York Times reports the Big Photo-Op is ready to go. The
> >president
> >> and the two prime ministers are to appear together on a bridge over the
> >> swimming pool behind the King of Jordan's palace.
> >>
> >> "White House operatives had the Jordanians build a bridge over the
pool,
> >> officials said, so that the leaders could walk over the water, side by
> >side,
> >> toward the massed cameras. When the first bridge proved too narrow for
more
> >> than one man to cross at once, the Americans had the Jordanians tear it
> >down
> >> and start over, officials said."
> >>
> >>
> >> This is the kind of attention to detail that got that aircraft carrier
> >turned
> >> around so when Bush landed on it, we couldn't see San Diego in the
> >background.
> >> Some details are more important than others in this administration.
lamb
Loes
DAE wrote:
--
Loes
lamb
>Having been gone for two weeks, and Ellis being fairly new, I have no
>idea of his political leanings. As you know, I skip most political
>posts anyway. But after reading his last post which was included in
>another post, my opinion of Ellis is that he is a snot-nosed kid who
>crawled out of the gutter and no decent woman would give him the time
>of day. He would do well to learn to express himself in words that
>don't offend most of the decent people on this newsgroup!
>
>Dalin
>
>
Dalin, don't judge too quickly. Ellis has been posting quite a bit more
than just that one. The result of the usual provocative bashing. For
being a foreigner I understand.
--
Loes
Proud foreigner
JD Cooper
>
> Isn't that a personal attack? Not welcome in most circles.
Well, of *course* it is, dingbat!
Marian and I have been attacking one another for some three years now.
Sheeeese! You'd think you'd have figured that out by now!
JD<--wondering why I must be redundant for your sake.
Marian
Conservatives used to be called Republicans, now they're Moderates.
The R's have lately become extreme rightwing radicals here.
I'll let Sinclair correct you about his origins and livelihood, if he cares to
bother with the likes of you...
Marian
>Sinclair,
>
>We don't have them over here Sinclair. Must be a British thing, but then
>you are a rock farmer, ex-pat Brit in France aren't you? Do you vote in
>both countries? Good work while your rocks grow.
>
>Don
>> Marian doesn't hate every right winger, I am and have been all my life a
>> Tory.
>>
>> Sinclair
>> > Nonsense, Don. You do this periodically, then later apologize for it,
>then
>> > disappear for awhile... I'm looking forward to your sabbatical. It's
>past
>> time.
>> > Marian
*****************************************************************
Marian
Marian
*****************************************************************
DAE
You wouldn't know. You were living under the protective umbrella of the
U.S. since the end of WWII. Those behind the Iron Curtain on the other hand
do know, and do appreciate the U.S. and they lived both under the Nazi's and
then the Soviets.
LOL
Don
"lamb" <lambwil...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:3EE2510E...@chello.nl...
DAE
You know very little about the USA, and I assume you never have been here.
If you did, or have, you probably find people a lot nicer than our Marian
here. She just is out to make trouble. If I'm in the mood I like to stick
it right back at her. Personally, I don't care who or what you like.
LOL
Don
"lamb" <lambwil...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:3EE251C6...@chello.nl...
Marian
>That, dear Mergatroid, was one beautiful post. I thank you for it.
>Loes
>a fellow marxist :-)
>and foreigner too - so beware!
>Mergatroid wrote:
>
>>"DAE" <d.e...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>>Marian,
>>>
>>>I'm proud of this country. I'd gladly wrap myself in our flag. I don't
>>>live in a fantasy world like you do. You have continually hated every
>>>Republican past and present on this Newsgroup. Even Reagan, the man who
>>>helped destroy the Soviet Union and who is now a very ill man. In spite
>>of
>>>his illness, you openly said you "Hated Reagan". You didn't even know you
>>>live in a Republican dominated State. Your hatred of anything or anyone
>>of
>>>the center right is spiteful. I would imagine your car, if you have one,
>>>only has left turn signals on it. When you find one person that shares
>>your
>>>views you act like a lone cheerleader. And how silly you look welcoming
>>them
>>>to the Group. Others who join usually get a "What he/she said" greeting.
>>>Most of these are foreigner's and of the Marxist persuasion, but then you
>>>wouldn't realize that. They infest the Internet looking for home grown
>>>discontent's like you. It gives them the reason to stay.
>>
>>WTF??? I really don't understand this whole "You don't agree with Bush and
>>the Administration and the 'Coalition of the Willing' so you must be a
>Marxist"
>>thing--and if they were, is this a group where "foreigner's" (sic), Marxist
>>or no, are not welcome?
>>
>>>
>>>While you read all of your favorite Award winning desk jockey writers, and
>>>especially those in the World's Finest Newspaper, the NYT (I assume you
>>have
>>>read all of the Newspaper's in the World to make that statement and wonder
>>>how much Chinese you know, or any other language for that matter) it's
>>>Publisher hangs his head in shame and disgust. I think he should read his
>>>paper sometime and see just what is happening to it.
>>
>>I seem to remember Marian mentioning that she reads many different news
>sites
>>every day but those who would attack her always pick on the fact that she
>>reads the NYT--a paper I would still trust more for information despite what
>>happened with one reporter (though I too read news from many sources) before
>>one of the alarmist Murdoch outlets, but that's my choice--if you don't like
>>the damn paper don't read it or postings derived from it.
>>
>>>
>>>Maybe forgetfulness isn't one of your problems but a total lack of
>knowledge
>>>blocked by your hatred and constant pandering of Copyrighted materials that
>>>don't belong on a newsgroup like this is.
>>
>>>You, Marian have attacked many people on this group personally. You,
>Marian
>>>deserve to be attacked personally because you Marian are not a patriot as
>>>you claim to be.
>>
>>I won't say that in my relatively short time here I have never seen Marian
>>attack anyone--I have--but often it is in response to an attack from someone
>>else, and I have much more often seen folks gang up on Marian, and have seen
>>her attacked for no reason (for example: when she couldn't open a link from
>>a post yesterday and said "I can't get it" and someone very kindly chimed
>>in "well no wonder!"--how sweet. At least JD--though he rarely agrees with
>>her--had the class to explain what she was missing). She's accused of being
>>witless, not thinking for herself, being a troublemaker--and what was that
>>line? "leftist lunatics?" With sweet nothings like that not only is Marian
>>being attacked but anyone (like myself) who leans to the left. And I have
>>also on many occasions seen Marian respond to non-political posts in the
>>kindest and sweetest way imaginable, even to people she normally doesn't
>>agree with, at least politically speaking. So don't paint her as a bitch
>>or a hate-monger if you aren't willing to practice what you preach. Maybe
>>if everyone--including Marian--calmed down their "attacks" people wouldn't
>>leave the group. I don't think it's realistic to say that political
>discussions
>>have no place in this kind of group--if they upset you don't read them--but
>>I also don't think that it's realistic to expect someone--myself included
>>:) --who is consistently called a fool and a lunatic and witless to not have
>>a strong reaction.
>>
>>
>>You are just one person who likes to complain about
>>>everything political. A patriot Marian would not make the statement you
>>did
>>>about fleeing with your Son to escape the Draft. Of course in a Democratic
>>>War in Viet Nam many did and were pardoned by another Democrat. Think
>about
>>>that Marian
>>
>>And a Republican pardoned Nixon--what's your point? Being a "patriot" does
>>not mean "my country right or wrong" to everyone--you can love your country
>>and still hate what its government is doing. If Marian or I or anyone else
>>who spoke out against the war or any particular administration really hated
>>the country I imagine that we couldn't care less about what was done with
>>it--we could leave, I suppose, if that were feasible, but we wouldn't care
>>enough to object. If I had been a male of draft age during the Vietnam war
>>I would have headed north as well, not out of hatred for America but because
>>I couldn't imagine killing others or facing death myself in a conflict that
>>I thought this country should have had no part in. I don't see how "duty"
>>and "patriotism" could justify bringing about death for a cause you believe
>>to be wrong. So I guess that makes me a Marxist :)
>>
>>>
>>>My fantasy is that you would just disappear from this group and go to one
>>of
>>>those that loves radicals. That would give me a very warm fuzzy feeling.
>>>As usual I don't know what "Boom Boom" means. It must be those little
>>>voices you hear in your wee little under used brain.
>>>
>>>Have a nice day, and please try to find a Newsgroup somewhere else that
>>fits
>>>your needs so we can rebuild this Group into a fun place (you probably
>don't
>>>know what fun is do you?) that it once was.
>>
>>I for one would not like to see you go, Marian--not that I think you would,
>>just thought I'd say it :) I don't agree with absolutely everything you
>>say in your posts--and I agree with far less in the posts of many people
>>here, but I recognize that they have their good points as well :)
>>
>>I'm really sorry that Leighann left--I'll miss the bunny stories :(
>>At any rate, I've been lurking for a couple of days--haven't been writing
>>mostly because I was too tired-- and thinking of taking off myself--sorry
>>for the extra-long post but I'm a little sick of the acrimony.
>>
>>Anyway--
>>
>>merg
>>
>>
>>
>>>Don
>>>
>>>
>>>"Marian" <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>news:20030605225715...@mb-m26.aol.com...
>>>> >
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not so. Folk who don't want to hear a contrary opinion take themselves
>>>off.
>>>> Nothing to do with me, though I do hate this radical Bush government and
>>>what
>>>> they're doing to my country.
>>>>
>>>> And you also got the facts wrong the last time you attacked me
>personally.
>>>> Forgetfulness isn't one of my problems...
>>>>
>>>> Wrap yourself in the flag and keep your fantasies warm, Don. Boom boom.
>>>>
>>>> Marian
>>>>
>>>> >> Like Maureen, another woman who tells it like it is. I didn't know
>>this
>>>> >about
>>>> >> that bridge...What a hoot. Marian<G>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> IVINS: Working for Nothing~Molly Ivins, AlterNet~June 5, 2003
>>>> >>
>>>> >> AUSTIN, Texas -- "I said you were a man of peace. I want you to know
>>I
>>>> >took
>>>> >> immense crap for that." George W. Bush, diplomat extraordinaire, to
>>>Ariel
>>>> >> Sharon, The Washington Post, June 3, 2003.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The effort to find peace in th
lamb
marxist and not even knowing it because they lived under your umbrella
instead of behind the steelwool netcurtains?
Gosh ........ thought that brainwashing belonged to the "other side"
............
Loes
DAE wrote:
--
Loes