For Keith
Baba Mung
Mr. Mong, I was wrong about you and I'm sorry. It turns out you are
not simply a troll, you are much worse. You are so far left of Marian
as to make her seem
downright Ronald Reaganish.
* For my part I've come to expect people to vary in the degree to
which they favour left- or right-wingish ideas. However, I recommend
you put categories like that out of mind. I've found they can get in
the way when we try establish the merits of specific things said or
written by others.
Keith continued -
First, the meaning of "troll":
"A purposely stupid, inflammatory, or downright wrong article (closely
related to flamebait). Its purpose is to get people mad and make them
look stupid and gullible."
As your initial post was, quite obviously, inflamatory, and some of us
would agree, downright wrong, you qualify for trolldom.
* I take comfort from the thought that you claim to have
surveyed hundreds of other posts on other groups by me but don't seem
to have found anybody on any other newsgroup who makes the same
charge.
Keith again -
our defenders should read of your interests on Deja (I did because I
wondered if I was wrong about you.) First, you apparently have no
interest in dogs or
movies or humor or gardens ....at least not in the 500 posts from 10
different newsgroups I read. You wish no one happy birthday or ask
about their kids; you
seem to read newspapers of the left and freely post articles clipped
from same. You have no interest in music, in home improvement, in
okra, in travel, or in
grandkids. For a moment, I wondered why you had come to AFPF.
......I suppose to spread more of the propaganda you freely (as is
your right) disseminate
around the Net.
* You are wrong to assume that my interests are limited to those you
deduce from my posts. Glad you don't live down the road though. I
have enough trouble with foxes and feral cats rummaging through my
garbage cans for titbits to their taste.
Keith carries on -
You are a very intelligent man, no doubt about that. You are always
polite in
your posts and never seem to lose your temper.
* That's a kind remark, Keith. I wish it were also true. However, it
does make a handy point at which to cut
your post . I will respond separately to the rest when I have a
little more time.
*Baba Mung
Kelly Petit
Baba Mung <ognum.l...@virgin.net>
>
> * You are wrong to assume that my interests are limited to those you
> deduce from my posts. Glad you don't live down the road though. I
> have enough trouble with foxes and feral cats rummaging through my
> garbage cans for titbits to their taste.
>
Don't worry Mr Campbell, we're not all of the same opinion and I for one appreciated your visit
with us. I'm sorry that a few people can stand those who disagree with them though. You must
have felt rather akward at being welcomed in such a way. And when it comes to trolling, I think
it was done inside this group.
I wish you'd tell us more about your life, you seem to have had and still have an interesting
one-:)
Where did you live i South Africa? I have cousins down there in Natal.
regards
kelly petit
Baba Mung
Kelly Petit <kelly...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:9h7epn$cg3so$1...@ID-4716.news.dfncis.de...
Apart from few years on a sheep farm in the semi-desert Karroo area
of South Africa, I spent most of my childhood and youth in
Johannesburg in what used to be the Transvaal, Kelly. I believe my
earliest 'girlfriend' was another two- or three- year old with the
surname Rocknes or Rocknis from Norway.
The part of the Transvaal I came from is climatically different from
Natal and, at least locally, also held to be culturally quite
different.
My mother lives with my sister in Natal at small coastal settlement
called Umkomaas which is about 40 kilometres south of Durban. I visit
her every few years now though for a long time I was not able to do
so. My wife and I usually hire a beach-front cottage further down the
coast at a place called St Michael's-On-Sea which your cousins are
sure to know of. Where in Natal are your cousins, Kelly? Have you
ever visited?
Best Wishes
Baba Mung
Kelly Petit
Baba Mung <ognum.l...@virgin.net
>
> Apart from few years on a sheep farm in the semi-desert Karroo area
> of South Africa, I spent most of my childhood and youth in
> Johannesburg in what used to be the Transvaal, Kelly. I believe my
> earliest 'girlfriend' was another two- or three- year old with the
> surname Rocknes or Rocknis from Norway.
Sounds very much like a Norwegian name-:)
> The part of the Transvaal I came from is climatically different from
> Natal and, at least locally, also held to be culturally quite
> different.
My cousins live in Pietermaritzburg, but they originally lived in Zululand, where the
grandfather still has his plantation.
They've been to Norway a couple of times and also here in Angers. The last ones to visit us
were the younger generation. We're permanently invited down there, but so far I've not been to
the African continent. I'd love to go there though. A cousin of mine went to visit with them
last year and he sent me the video he'd taken, beautiful landscapes and so very much different
from Norway.
I still have my mother and sisters in Norway and on top of it our daughter has married a
Norwegian and lives there, so every time I have a holiday, I tend to go to Norway. Once in a
while I do visit some other places in between.
> My mother lives with my sister in Natal at small coastal settlement
> called Umkomaas which is about 40 kilometres south of Durban. I visit
> her every few years now though for a long time I was not able to do
> so. My wife and I usually hire a beach-front cottage further down the
> coast at a place called St Michael's-On-Sea which your cousins are
> sure to know of. Where in Natal are your cousins, Kelly? Have you
> ever visited?
I'll ask them about St Michael's -On-Sea. I know they have a summer house on the sea somewhere,
but I've forgotten where it was.
My cousin (3rd generation of Norwegians down there) married an Englishman (1st generation),
he's a very nice fellow and copes well with the Norwegian temperament which they've managed to
preserve-;)
I guess you're glad to be able to go back again.
I have a film about those bleak years called 'Cry Freedom', I guess you're familiar with that
one as it related a true story.
My cousins did a lot of work to help people there especially within their church.
I've always been fascinated about South Africa since my grandfather used to tell me about his
family there and then in 1956, they came to Norway for the first time.
It must have been quite a change for you to get used to living in Europe again.
Kelly-:)
Marian
Thanks for returning long enough to share this, Baba Mung. & Kelly of course.
Marian
Baba Mung
>
> Baba Mung <ognum.l...@virgin.net
> >
> My cousins live in Pietermaritzburg, but they originally lived in
Zululand, where the
> grandfather still has his plantation.
*Pietermaritzburg is on the motorway which stretches from Johannesburg
to Durban. I have passed through the outskirts of Pietermaritzburg
many many times, though only stopped there once or twice. The route
takes one down from the South Africa's high altitude inner plateau
through the Drakensberg (Dragon Mountains) to lower altitude Natal
and a normally warmer more tropical climate. Pietermaritzburg is the
first major town after leaving the mountain passes. But perhaps you
already know these things. What do your cousins farm? Sugar cane?
Timber?
> They've been to Norway a couple of times and also here in Angers.
The last ones to visit us
> were the younger generation. We're permanently invited down there,
but so far I've not been to
> the African continent. I'd love to go there though.
* I hope you do get around to it.
A cousin of mine
went to visit with them
> last year and he sent me the video he'd taken, beautiful landscapes
and so very much different
> from Norway.
*But Norway has it's charms too. And, for me at any rate, a certain
mystique. My father was an enthusiastic amateur historian with a
particular interest in the ancient links between Norway and Scotland,
the Icelandic sagas, and Ireland.
> I still have my mother and sisters in Norway and on top of it our
daughter has married a
> Norwegian and lives there, so every time I have a holiday, I tend to
go to Norway. Once in a
> while I do visit some other places in between.
>
*So it is with us. Much of the time in which we are free
to travel as we please is spent visiting relations in South Africa or
other parts of Britain...
> I'll ask them about St Michael's -On-Sea. I know they have a summer
house on the sea somewhere,
> but I've forgotten where it was.
> My cousin (3rd generation of Norwegians down there) married an
Englishman (1st generation),
> he's a very nice fellow and copes well with the Norwegian
temperament which they've managed to
> preserve-;)
* I had no idea the Norwegians had a reputation for temperament -
unless, of course, for a good one ! :-)
.
> I guess you're glad to be able to go back again.
* Yes.
> I have a film about those bleak years called 'Cry Freedom', I guess
you're familiar with that
> one as it related a true story.
* Yes. There is also an amount of acclaimed literature that has come
out of those years - and music. I particularly like the music of
Hugh Masekela. Recently went to concert in Trafalgar Square, London,
at which he was performing along with others.
> My cousins did a lot of work to help people there especially within
their church.
* I'm glad to hear that. For many people things would have been even
worse but for the help of churchmen, their congregations, and other
well-disposed groups; and that is still true though the pattern of
problems people face has changed.
> I've always been fascinated about South Africa since my grandfather
used to tell me about his
> family there and then in 1956, they came to Norway for the first
time.
*What you say of your grandfather reminds me of a painting which used
to turn up on biscuit tin lids and the like when I was a boy. It was
of an elderly sailor or fisherman sitting on a rock on the beach with
little children at his feet, clearly enthralled by his stories. Do
you know how your grandfather's family came to settle in South Africa?
A sea-faring connection perhaps? Whaling? Also when I was a boy
there was whaling station at Durban on the Indian Ocean coast.
> It must have been quite a change for you to get used to living in
Europe again.
* Europe has it's compensations for someone born on what seemed to me
in childhood the very edge of the world . But at heart I am an
African.
Baba Mung
Kelly Petit
Baba Mung <ognum.l...@virgin.net>
>
> *Pietermaritzburg is on the motorway which stretches from Johannesburg
> to Durban. I have passed through the outskirts of Pietermaritzburg
> many many times, though only stopped there once or twice. The route
> takes one down from the South Africa's high altitude inner plateau
> through the Drakensberg (Dragon Mountains) to lower altitude Natal
> and a normally warmer more tropical climate. Pietermaritzburg is the
> first major town after leaving the mountain passes. But perhaps you
> already know these things. What do your cousins farm? Sugar cane?
> Timber?
of books that my cousins brought with them the first time they visited us here in France.
They farm sugar cane, it's now my third cousin John Dahl who works the farm. His father is
about 88 and has eventually given up.
I've seen lots of pictures from the plantation, it looks lovely out there although they're in
for some severe floodings once in a while.
> * I hope you do get around to it.
It's just a question of finding the time to go there.
> *But Norway has it's charms too. And, for me at any rate, a certain
> mystique. My father was an enthusiastic amateur historian with a
> particular interest in the ancient links between Norway and Scotland,
> the Icelandic sagas, and Ireland.
It sure does, I'd be the first one to say that-:) When I see my mountains and my fjords, I get
this lump in the throat. But I guess everybody feels it like that about their home country.
I'm rather interested in our old history myself. I'm really keen on genealogy and I have some
links that we think may have their origins in Scotland about 1300. The sagas are great
literature although they cannot always be taken as a true source since they were written long
after the events mostly. But they do give us a good picture of the life in Scandinavia in those
days.
> *So it is with us. Much of the time in which we are free
> to travel as we please is spent visiting relations in South Africa or
> other parts of Britain...
It's quite understandable and especially for you, it must have been a real change to be able to
go back there again.
>
> * I had no idea the Norwegians had a reputation for temperament -
> unless, of course, for a good one ! :-)
LOL
We mostly have a good temperament, but we're quite stubborn and don't like anybody telling us
what to do-:) Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's less good. I'm thinking of the Common
Market, for instance. Most of my friends are still against it... One of them said, 'My reason
tells me to vote 'yes', but my heart tells me to vote 'no'.
We're afraid that Brussels will try to decide for us, and that's something every Norwegian
would hate-:)
> * Yes. There is also an amount of acclaimed literature that has come
> out of those years - and music. I particularly like the music of
> Hugh Masekela. Recently went to concert in Trafalgar Square, London,
> at which he was performing along with others.
I have to ask my son about that singer, he's the one who's into music.
Otherwise I've read most of André Brink's novels.
> * I'm glad to hear that. For many people things would have been even
> worse but for the help of churchmen, their congregations, and other
> well-disposed groups; and that is still true though the pattern of
> problems people face has changed.
Yes, that's what my cousin Kari tells me. People are so poor and it will take a long time
before they get a descent living standard. So many things must change and they need foreign
capital down there too.
>
> *What you say of your grandfather reminds me of a painting which used
> to turn up on biscuit tin lids and the like when I was a boy. It was
> of an elderly sailor or fisherman sitting on a rock on the beach with
> little children at his feet, clearly enthralled by his stories.
That's the image I have of my grandfather although he was not a sailor, but a blacksmith and a
farmer. He was the most amazing story teller, he invented stories about people and creatures.
If I had been a good writer, I'd have written them down. Maybe I'll do one day-:)
> Do
> you know how your grandfather's family came to settle in South Africa?
> A sea-faring connection perhaps? Whaling? Also when I was a boy
> there was whaling station at Durban on the Indian Ocean coast.
It was my grandfather's cousin who emigrated and he started working farmland right away. These
boys were all brought up to work wood and iron, but there wasn't enough room for all of them,
so some went to America and some elsewhere. His name was Henrik Dahl (Rutledal in Norway) and
he emigrated towards the end of the last century. He married a Norwegian lady and his son who
is still alive also married a Norwegian lady. That's why my cousins of my generation are 100 %
Norwegian, but now they mix up with English people mostly.
>
> * Europe has it's compensations for someone born on what seemed to me
> in childhood the very edge of the world . But at heart I am an
> African.
>
I can understand that, no matter how long you live somewhere, it's your childhood years and
youth tha matter. I've lived longer abroad that I did in Norway (although some of my Norwegian
friends tell me I've never left since I go back so often-:), but at heart I'm 100 % Norwegian.
Kelly
Baba Mung
Marian <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010625191909...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
> An interesting discussion about a part of the world I know nothing
about!
> Thanks for returning long enough to share this, Baba Mung. & Kelly
of course.
>
Hi, Marian. Hope all's well with you.
Baba Mung
Keithlv1
<kelly...@wanadoo.fr> writes:
>Don't worry Mr Campbell, we're not all of the same opinion and I for one
>appreciated your visit
>with us.
He knows, you've already said as much 27, or so, times. :)
I'm sorry that a few people can stand those who disagree with them
>though.
Said that, 35, or so, times.
>You must
>have felt rather akward at being welcomed in such a way. And when it comes to
>trolling, I think
>it was done inside this group.
Darn right, according to the definition I read, Marian, Robert, Ann, and I have
been guilty of trolling on quite a few occasions - for the most part, Robert's
and my troll posts coming as a response to Marian's constant digs. Others
posters have also made troll posts, while maintaining their cool.
k
Keithlv1
<ognum.l...@virgin.net> writes:
[comments added below]
>Keith wrote-
>Mr. Mong, I was wrong about you and I'm sorry. It turns out you are
>not simply a troll, you are much worse. You are so far left of Marian
>as to make her seem
>downright Ronald Reaganish.
>
>* For my part I've come to expect people to vary in the degree to
>which they favour left- or right-wingish ideas. However, I recommend
>you put categories like that out of mind. I've found they can get in
>the way when we try establish the merits of specific things said or
>written by others.
As one often in the middle of the road, (a registered Independent, fyi) I like
to know from whence comes the argument (grain of salt, and all that). Whether
I know a debater's political leanings or not, I still listen to them with rapt
attention. That is why I continue to listen to Marian - even though I well
know her politics, I continue to hope she'll, at some point, say something
intelligent. Everybody, no matter where they stand, has a right to be heard.
So I suppose I basically agree with what you say above.
>Keith continued -
>First, the meaning of "troll":
>"A purposely stupid, inflammatory, or downright wrong article (closely
>related to flamebait). Its purpose is to get people mad and make them
>look stupid and gullible."
>As your initial post was, quite obviously, inflamatory, and some of us
>would agree, downright wrong, you qualify for trolldom.
>
>* I take comfort from the thought that you claim to have
>surveyed hundreds of other posts on other groups by me but don't seem
>to have found anybody on any other newsgroup who makes the same
>charge.
I don't "claim to have surveyed"......I say *I have read, in full, nearly 500
of your posts*. As for nobody else making the charge, what can I say, there's
a first time for many things. Your post regarding Colin Powell, et al, *was*
trollish (according to the Compuserve definition of troll), and, from my
personal reading of your posts, you *have* an agenda. Both true from where I
sit.....remember that I haven't said anything really bad about you - such as
suggesting you are evil, casting aspersions on your parents, calling you a
liar, continuously adding vile comments to your AFPF posts, or other really
nasty stuff. Just the facts, and the truth.
>Keith again -
> our defenders should read of your interests on Deja (I did because I
>wondered if I was wrong about you.) First, you apparently have no
>interest in dogs or
>movies or humor or gardens ....at least not in the 500 posts from 10
>different newsgroups I read. You wish no one happy birthday or ask
>about their kids; you
>seem to read newspapers of the left and freely post articles clipped
>from same. You have no interest in music, in home improvement, in
>okra, in travel, or in
>grandkids. For a moment, I wondered why you had come to AFPF.
>......I suppose to spread more of the propaganda you freely (as is
>your right) disseminate
>around the Net.
>
>* You are wrong to assume that my interests are limited to those you
>deduce from my posts. Glad you don't live down the road though. I
>have enough trouble with foxes and feral cats rummaging through my
>garbage cans for titbits to their taste.
This was the first time in six years I had done a search on a newsgroup member
and I suspect it will be the last. First, it is time consuming. Second, I
felt dirty. It *did* seem (although it wasn't) like I was reading old letters,
private thoughts..... Yuk! ....The other day my wife threw away part of a
newspaper before I had a chance to extract a terrific quote. I didn't even
like going into my *own* garbage to retrieve the paper. Believe me, I
certainly wouldn't go into yours. Feral cats, eh? Doesn't sound good. I
suggest you move.
>Keith carries on -
>You are a very intelligent man, no doubt about that. You are always
>polite in
>your posts and never seem to lose your temper.
>
>* That's a kind remark, Keith. I wish it were also true. However, it
>does make a handy point at which to cut
>your post . I will respond separately to the rest when I have a
>little more time.
>
>*Baba Mung
Which part isn't true, the intelligence or the politeness? Or both? Maybe I
should have said reasonably well behaved. You were a bit sarcastic with Robert
and, above, you have suggested I'd go through your garbage .......yet I don't
take great offense at that. As for intelligence, perhaps I've been hanging out
with the wrong people and have over-rated your intelligence based on their lack
of same. Everything being relative, y'know?
Don't waste your time trying to solve that conundrum or continuing to blame the
U.S. for all the world's ills. I read today that the U.S. will continue to
supply a great deal of money, $450 million this year, to fight AIDS. Every
year, we contribute more than any other country to that worthy cause. Seems to
me that as a great father, is that not your title?, you could perform a public
service by instructing those in your homeland, and surroundings, on the
prevention of AIDS. Not all that difficult if you'd like to start embracing
some old-fashioned values like not taking drugs and not sleeping with everybody
who comes along. As a great father, they'd listen to you, would they not? Oh,
and try to get those countries you admire, Libya, Iran, and such, to get with
the program and put some strong language into the U.N.
document on AIDS. The U.S. and other developed countries can throw all the
money they want at the problem but without prevention it won't do a bit of
good. If we can eventually conquer AIDS then maybe the U.S. can use that money
to start curing their own citizens of cancer and such; maybe even give health
insurance to our own poor.
See what a "good" agenda might do? Then again, people might not listen, great
father or not. Heck, I'm just a poor slob and they don't listen to me about
speeding, do they. But I try.
k
Marian
cool marian
Marian
Marian
Marian
Marian
I have developed an agenda. It's one of the perks of becoming a grown-up...
Er..I thought you had left, Keith? No? Well, okay...
You do know that if you rejoin our little group that it IS unacceptable to call
contributors, Liars, Don't you? Other stuff... Just checking...
Marian
Baba Mung
Keithlv1 <keit...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20010626125932...@nso-ca.news.cs.com...
> In article <SXGZ6.20718$mK4.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
"Baba Mung"
> <ognum.l...@virgin.net> writes:
>
> >Keith says -
> >You are a very intelligent man, no doubt about that. You are
always
> >polite in
> >your posts and never seem to lose your temper.
> >
> >* That's a kind remark, Keith. I wish it were also true. However,
it
> >does make a handy point at which to cut
> >your post . I will respond separately to the rest when I have a
> >little more time.
> >
> >*Baba Mung
>
> Which part isn't true, the intelligence or the politeness? Or both?
Maybe I
> should have said reasonably well behaved. You were a bit sarcastic
with Robert
> and, above, you have suggested I'd go through your garbage
.......yet I don't
> take great offense at that. As for intelligence, perhaps I've been
hanging out
> with the wrong people and have over-rated your intelligence based on
their lack
> of same. Everything being relative, y'know?
>
> Don't waste your time trying to solve that conundrum .......
* I won't.
> ....... I read today that the U.S. will continue to
> supply a great deal of money, $450 million this year, to fight AIDS.
Every
> year, we contribute more than any other country to that worthy
cause.
* A worthy cause indeed, Keith. And every little bit helps. I see
that some European countries have also chipped in following Kofi
Annan's appeal. I believe that the U.S. magazine, Science,
published some relevant research only last week. As I understand the
figures I've seen., an annual $10-billion to be repeated for a 10-year
period would be needed to reverse AIDS epidemic globally. This would
provide ante-natal testing for 35,000,000 women and treatment to
prevent the passage of infection to new-born infants in nearly a
million of those women. Further very substantial amounts would be
needed to care for people already living with HIV or full-blown AIDS.
Of the total expenditure envisaged, it is estimated that in
sub-Saharan Africa countries (and some Asian regions) up to 80% would
need to come from outside sources - even assuming that sub-Saharan
governments keep to pledges to commit 15% of public spending health
care.
> ........ a great father, is that not your title?
* No, not quite in the sense you seem to want to convey. More a
nickname or fairly customary appellation for almost all men of certain
years - a bit like 'Granpa' in your own culture.
, you could perform a public
> service by instructing those in your homeland, and surroundings, on
the
> prevention of AIDS. Not all that difficult if you'd like to start
embracing
> some old-fashioned values like not taking drugs and not sleeping
with everybody
> who comes along.
* I guess you would know, Keith, given that the U.S. is said to have
succeeded in 'stabilising it's own AIDS problem at a low level -
albeit at an estimated ongoing cost of $20 billion per annum on top
of all that handy advice. And that is not intended as an attack on
the U.S., Keith. All credit to to those who have made it possible to
slow the problem down in your country.
> ...... If we can eventually conquer AIDS then maybe the U.S. can use
that money
> to start curing their own citizens of cancer and such; maybe even
give health
> insurance to our own poor.
* I agree that. Another very worthy cause! Keep well
Baba Mung
Marian
Marian
Kelly Petit
You had me laughing out loud here! I hope you meant to-;)
Now are you keeping a record of what I say, I do repeat myself then. But you know that's
because of my job, I always have to repeat at leats 35 times or so before my students
understand <g<
kelly
Keithlv1 <keit...@cs.com> a écrit dans le message :
20010626125929...@nso-ca.news.cs.com...
Keithlv1
<kelly...@wanadoo.fr> writes:
>LOL
>You had me laughing out loud here! I hope you meant to-;)
>Now are you keeping a record of what I say, I do repeat myself then. But you
>know that's
>because of my job, I always have to repeat at leats 35 times or so before my
>students
>understand <g<
>kelly
Of course I meant to - as you could tell by both the language, and the timing.
If one can't laugh at oneself, one has no business laughing at anyone else,
IMO. As a matter of choice, I always pick on myself first.
Nah, I have too much to do to keep an accurate record but I do think my numbers
are close. :) Many of us, on both sides, got a little carried away with the
Mr. Mung discussion.
k
Kelly Petit
> In article <9hat8o$cj813$1...@ID-4716.news.dfncis.de>, "Kelly Petit"
> <kelly...@wanadoo.fr> writes:
>
> >LOL
> >You had me laughing out loud here! I hope you meant to-;)
> >Now are you keeping a record of what I say, I do repeat myself then. But you
> >know that's
> >because of my job, I always have to repeat at leats 35 times or so before my
> >students
> >understand <g<
> >kelly
>
> Of course I meant to - as you could tell by both the language, and the timing.
> If one can't laugh at oneself, one has no business laughing at anyone else,
> IMO. As a matter of choice, I always pick on myself first.
>
> Nah, I have too much to do to keep an accurate record but I do think my numbers
> are close. :) Many of us, on both sides, got a little carried away with the
> Mr. Mung discussion.
>
> k
>
Hey, on both sides? Are there two sides in here? <g>
I think there are more than two sides to life....
Or maybe you meant on both sides of the pond?
Kelly
Kelly Petit
But I do find it very interesting to listen to somebody who's been there and experienced what
it was like.
James Michener wrote a book about the early days of the colonization down there, 'The Covenant'
I think the title was.
Kelly
Marian <lust...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message :
20010625191909...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
Kelly Petit
Baba Mung <ognum.l...@virgin.net>
>
> * A worthy cause indeed, Keith. And every little bit helps. I see
> that some European countries have also chipped in following Kofi
> Annan's appeal.
That's good to hear. It's a tragedy for people on the African continent. A friend of my son's
who has spent two years on the African continent working in the health sector, said that in the
years to come we'll have a great deal of orphans in some countries as their parents are dying
from AIDS.
I also read an article about a brave little boy from South Africa who was born with AIDS and
who travelled around with his foster mother to attend conferences (I think the article was
published in Time magazine) to make people become more aware of the situation in developing
countries. It's a real tragedy in many places.
As you said, every little bit helps.
Kelly
Baba Mung
Yes. There are so many orphanages, so many orphans already, in
Southern Africa. The little boy's name was Kwezi Johnson. He died
very recently.
Baba Mung
Keithlv1
<kelly...@wanadoo.fr> writes:
>Good, I was not quite sure.
>Hey, on both sides? Are there two sides in here? <g>
There were. No longer; now we are one big happy family.
>I think there are more than two sides to life....
Hmmm. :)
>Or maybe you meant on both sides of the pond?
>Kelly
Yes, that is what I meant. <vbg>
k
Kelly Petit
Baba Mung <ognum.l...@virgin.net> a écrit dans le message :
eR8_6.28778$mK4.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
was so brave, may he not have died in vain. How many cases like this do they have down there?
In South Africa, for instance, the government is partly responsible since they did not want to
acknowledge how serious it was and give people the treatment they need. I do not know enough
about the situation as I only have it from other people though.
Kelly
Kelly Petit
> In article <9hb1vo$d2cve$1...@ID-4716.news.dfncis.de>, "Kelly Petit"
> <kelly...@wanadoo.fr> writes:
>
> >Good, I was not quite sure.
> >Hey, on both sides? Are there two sides in here? <g>
>
> There were. No longer; now we are one big happy family.
I don't know if every one agrees to that, some do not like the term 'family', but if you say
'happy', I'll go for that <g>
> >Or maybe you meant on both sides of the pond?
>
> Yes, that is what I meant. <vbg>
>
I'm reassured! lol
kelly
Baba Mung
>
> > > Kelly Petit <kelly...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
> > news:9hb2u0$d7sr5$1...@ID-4716.news.dfncis.de...
> > >
> > > Baba Mung <ognum.l...@virgin.net>
> > > It's a real tragedy in many places.
> > > As you said, every little bit helps.
> > > Kelly
> > >
> >
> > Yes. There are so many orphanages, so many orphans already, in
> > Southern Africa. The little boy's name was Kwezi Johnson. He
died
> > very recently.
> >
> > Baba Mung
> >
> How sad. I remember that his name was Johnson now, so it's surely
the same little fellow. He
> was so brave, may he not have died in vain. How many cases like this
do they have down there?
> In South Africa, for instance, the government is partly responsible
since they did not want to
> acknowledge how serious it was and give people the treatment they
need. I do not know enough
> about the situation as I only have it from other people though.
> Kelly
>
>
The incidence of AIDS in South Africa is indeed among the highest in
the world. I do not have the latest figures on South Africa itself
readily to hand but here is an excerpt from a report on the situation
in the region generally. "....a recent World Health Organisation
survey reports that in Zimbabwe, for example, 25% of the adult
population is HIV positive, in Botswana it is 25%, Zambia 20%,
Namibia 19%, Swaziland 18%..." ***
The white minority government which held office in South Africa for
half a century until finally superseded in 1994 by the current
democratic government hardly seemed to acknowledge that there was a
problem at all until rather late in the day. Some critics have
suggested this was because HIV and AIDS were seen by that government
as very largely a black people's problem.
The current democratically elected government attracted some bad
publicity in it's early attempts to address the AIDS problem . This
was because the head of govt drew on the advice of a group of
internationally-known advisers which included some with medically
unorthodox views. Also he went on record as saying that AIDS was
caused by poverty. I am not clear whether President Mbeki also ever
actually said AIDS wasn't caused by HIV but it was widely held that
was part of what he was saying. He has since modified his
pronouncements; and quite recently the South African government faced
the major pharmaceutical companies in a court battle over the right to
home-produce, or import, cheap copies of drugs used to treat AIDS
because the country could not afford the prices the companies were
demanding. Once the public and some world leaders had weighed in on
South Africa's side the companies withdrew the action and offered at
least some drugs at lower prices. However, even at these lower
prices, the government cannot afford the outlay which would be
required were it to attempt to help *all* AIDS sufferers in the same
way AIDS patients in say, France, the UK, or US are helped by their
governments. So far as I am aware the South African authorities'
priorities at present are to try to prevent.the spread of HIV through
blanket health propaganda, education, and treatment aimed at blocking
transmission of the virus from mother to new-born child. When I
last heard the authorities were resisting pressure to commit to large
scale purchase and use of AZT and other retro-viral drugs. Instead
they appeared to want to prioritise treatment for diseases such as
tuberculosis and pneumonia which do the actual killing in AIDS
cases.
The current South African government seems to have been subjected to
great deal of ill-founded criticism on the AIDS issue. Some of this
criticism arises out of a simple lack of information. But I also
think some is connected with the attractions the smell of potential
profits has for some big pharmaceutical interests. The facts are that
South Africa does not have the resources to do what it very probably
would like to do. What resources are available to it have to be set
against a number of pressing social problems of which AIDS, serious
though it is, is only one. There are huge disparities of income in
South Africa. Many people are unemployed, homeless, and live in the
direst poverty. For many decades much of the population was excluded
from equitable educational opportunity. There are teacher shortages,
book shortages. Also a recent history of virtual civil war has had a
brutalising effect on many people. Since 1994 much ground has been
made up in providing homes, electricity, and clean water, for many
hundreds of thousands of people and better schooling for many
children. But there is still a great deal to do and, as in many parts
of the world, resources are limited.
Would like to discuss at greater length, Kelly. But must now once
more take a break. Or at least try to. Other tasks press.
Quotation taken from "The New World Guide 2001/2002" p21. English
version published by New Internationalist Publications Ltd., Oxford,
UK www.newint.org
Baba Mung
Kelly Petit <kelly...@wanadoo.fr> wrote of the HIV/AIDS crisis in
Africa in message news:9hc0k8$d7q2a$1...@ID-4716.news.dfncis.de...
>
> ............How many cases like this do they have down there?
.
*Just before I go, Kelly. Here's a bit more on this - a much snipped
version of a New York Times article I've just come across which you
may think sheds more light on the problem of dealing with the AIDS
crisis in Southern Africa. :-
June 11, 2001
Refusing to Save Africans
By BOB HERBERT
New York Times
"....................................................................a
key Bush administration official is opposing any extensive use of the
life-extending anti-AIDS drugs in Africa, insisting that the health
care infrastructure is too primitive and that Africans, in most cases,
are incapable of following the regimen...As head of the U.S. Agency
for International Development, Andrew Natsios is the administration's
point man on foreign aid. In an interview with The Boston Globe, he
said the money raised by a new global fund to fight AIDS should be
used almost entirely for prevention services, not for the
antiretroviral drugs that have been so successful in extending the
lives of people infected with H.I.V
..............................>extensive snip
<.....................................................................
...............................
Mr. Natsios may not realize it, but just talking about prevention has
failed. In sub-Saharan Africa, more than 25 million people are
infected with H.I.V., and more than 17 million have already died. In
South Africa, which is being brought to its knees by this epidemic,
the rate of infection for all people 15 to 45 years old has nearly
reached 20
percent...............................................................
.............................................
I spoke with Mr. Natsios last Thursday. He conceded that in South
Africa and the country with the worst outbreak of AIDS in the world,
Botswana, the health
care infrastructure is, in fact, pretty good.............Mr. Natsios
reluctantly acknowledged that some limited use of antiretroviral
treatment in Africa may be O.K., and he said he didn't mean to offend
anyone with his comments ...........The truth is that both prevention
and drug therapy are desperately needed in Africa ...........there is
a role for antiretroviral therapy to play in the catastrophe in
sub-Saharan Africa. And it would be to the everlasting shame of the
United
States if its officials proved to be a barrier to that kind of life-
saving treatment..."
*Baba
Di Wall
And now, of course the UN is in strife for not AIDS screening its workers in
Indonesia where at least one national is now HIV positive....an AIDS
epidemic in any Third World country is tragic..but this one has had so
much pain recently...
Di....
"Baba Mung" <ognum.l...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:eR8_6.28778$mK4.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Marian
surprised. [And I don't know that the Clinton administration covered itself in
glory in dealing with this tragedy either...]
But I hope that the US will help in a major way to get the drugs to them ASAP.
Thanks for sharing this, Baba.
Marian
Paul Goetze
Haven't been able to follow this thread because of family
pre-occupations, so this might not be pertinent to the discussion but
we watched a documentary on AIDS in South Africa the other evening and
health care professionals from that country are being overwhelmed by
the present crisis. The infrastructure is no longer "pretty good" but
is breaking down, unable to keep up with this twenty-first century
equivalent of the plague. One doctor said "we have two patients to a
bed and one under the bed, that's how acute the crisis is." One
statistic really shook us up: They expect one child out of three to
be dead before he/she reach fifteen. Heartbreaking.
Paul
Jean B.
>
> Kelly Petit <kelly...@wanadoo.fr> wrote of the HIV/AIDS crisis in
> Africa in message news:9hc0k8$d7q2a$1...@ID-4716.news.dfncis.de...
> >
>
> > ............How many cases like this do they have down there?
> .
> *Just before I go, Kelly. Here's a bit more on this - a much snipped
> version of a New York Times article I've just come across which you
> may think sheds more light on the problem of dealing with the AIDS
> crisis in Southern Africa. :-
>
> June 11, 2001
> Refusing to Save Africans
> By BOB HERBERT
> New York Times
>
> "....................................................................a
> key Bush administration official is opposing any extensive use of the
> life-extending anti-AIDS drugs in Africa, insisting that the health
> care infrastructure is too primitive and that Africans, in most cases,
> are incapable of following the regimen...As head of the U.S. Agency
> for International Development, Andrew Natsios is the administration's
> point man on foreign aid. In an interview with The Boston Globe, he
> said the money raised by a new global fund to fight AIDS should be
> used almost entirely for prevention services, not for the
> antiretroviral drugs that have been so successful in extending the
> lives of people infected with H.I.V
Andrew Natsios was Massachusetts Turnpike Authority Chairman and
supervisor of Boston's infamous "Big Dig". He went on to this
position in the Bush Administration. Just goes to show that cronyism
and political paybacks do not lead to the most competent and informed
people occupying such positions. (And this is not just a dig at the
Republicans; the Democrats do the same thing.)
Jean B.
Kelly Petit
I was just going to reply to your other posts, but since you posted this new message, I won't
repeat myself.
I hope they get the help they need before it's too late. Mother Nature is sometimes cruel. It
seems that every time we've vanquished one disease, another one pops up.
Unfortunately, it's always the same group of people that suffers most, those whose plight is
already so huge.
Kelly
Baba Mung <ognum.l...@virgin.net> a écrit dans le message :
lik_6.20634$QM1.3...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Kelly Petit
**Dalin** <lj...@mindspring.com> a écrit dans le message :
3b39edc...@nntp.mindspring.com...
> Tues. the U.S. Congress agreed to add more than $1.3 billion to a
> global campaign against AIDS.
>
> $750 million is pledged for the global fund, $560 million in
> assistance to individual countries, and $50 million for a pilot drug
> treatment program.
>
> This is on top of the $200 million already pledged by President Bush
> to a fund organized by U.N. Sec-Gen. Kofi Annan.
>
> Dalin
I hope the needy will get this. We've already seen examples of the contrary I'm afraid, but I
guess people have learnt from their mistakes now. It's not that long ago that money which was
supposed to go to the needy was used by the military junta to buy more weapons.
Kelly
>
>
> On 27 Jun 2001 14:19:33 GMT, lust...@aol.com (Marian) wrote:
>
Kelly Petit
Paul Goetze <paul....@ns.sympatico.ca> a écrit dans le message :
jjrjjtspugraibdif...@4ax.com...
>
>
> Haven't been able to follow this thread because of family
> pre-occupations, so this might not be pertinent to the discussion but
> we watched a documentary on AIDS in South Africa the other evening and
> health care professionals from that country are being overwhelmed by
> the present crisis. The infrastructure is no longer "pretty good" but
> is breaking down, unable to keep up with this twenty-first century
> equivalent of the plague. One doctor said "we have two patients to a
> bed and one under the bed, that's how acute the crisis is." One
> statistic really shook us up: They expect one child out of three to
> be dead before he/she reach fifteen. Heartbreaking.
>
> Paul
It is indeed, Paul.
Each century seems to come up with a new plague. I often wonder about that.
kelly
Bobbie.
post.......I am ashamed at my ignorance of the sad details of this
appalling epedemic.........as with so many other subjects aired of
late.
You make learning an enjoyable task.
I have found all your posts a delight and I commend your patience.
I hope you will stay with us and post as often as you can...I look
forward to reading them.......
Your exchanges with Kelly have given us all quite a few insights.
Thank you.
Bobbie:-)
>
>
Kelly Petit
Baba Mung
Marian <lust...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010627101933...@ng-mo1.aol.com...
> I didn't know about the callous ignorance of this Bush appointee,
but I'm not
> surprised. [And I don't know that the Clinton administration
covered itself in
> glory in dealing with this tragedy either...]
>
> But I hope that the US will help in a major way to get the drugs
to them ASAP.
> Thanks for sharing this, Baba.
>
> Marian
>
Well, there must be few if any governments that don't suffer from
shortcomings of the kind exemplified by Mr Natsios. Perhaps that
makes it important that all we less exalted folk let our governments
know we know even if they don't. In democracies at least,
governments do show some sensitivity when it comes to pleasing the
people they hope will vote to keep them in office.
Thanks, by the way, for pointing me in the direction of the New
York Times.
Keep well, Marian.
Baba
Baba Mung
>
> **Dalin** <lj...@mindspring.com> a écrit dans le message :
> 3b39edc...@nntp.mindspring.com...
> > Tues. the U.S. Congress agreed to add more than $1.3 billion to
a
> > global campaign against AIDS.
> >
> > $750 million is pledged for the global fund, $560 million in
> > assistance to individual countries, and $50 million for a pilot
drug
> > treatment program.
> >
> > This is on top of the $200 million already pledged by President
Bush
> > to a fund organized by U.N. Sec-Gen. Kofi Annan.
> >
> > Dalin
> I hope the needy will get this. We've already seen examples of the
contrary I'm afraid, but I
> guess people have learnt from their mistakes now. It's not that
long ago that money which was
> supposed to go to the needy was used by the military junta to buy
more weapons.
> Kelly
>
>
Yes, Kelly, I too hope the money does go to where the U.S.
administration say it is intended to go and is in fact spent
fighting AIDS. I didn't know about the diversion of funds by a
military junta into arms procurement which you mention. Sadly there
are still a few non-democratic military governments about in Africa
and elsewhere and that kind of thing does happen. I seem to remember
hearing of some funds which never even got as far as the third world
but appeared to have been spirited away by people entrusted with
their administration in Europe. Fortunately there is also evidence
that lots of aid does get through and does make a difference.
Baba
Kelly Petit
Baba Mung <ognum.l...@virgin.net> a écrit dans le message :
_hs_6.23094$QM1.3...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
My sister "adopted" a third world child somewhere in South America and paid money to send him
to school etc. for many years. Well, most of the funds had gone into the pocket of those who
were supposed to administrate the organization. Their headquarter was in Belgium and there was
a priest who was in charge of it if I remember right.
These things will always happen, some people can not be trusted.
Kelly
Janie
am not convinced someone isn't getting rich off mine, and other people's, good hearts.
Janie
Kelly Petit wrote:
--
Home is where you hang your @
Baba Mung
Janie <mb...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3B3A60CB...@mediaone.net...
> I have often thought of adopting a child overseas so he/she can
get the money to help them. But, I
> am not convinced someone isn't getting rich off mine, and other
people's, good hearts.
> Janie
>
I imagine there is no 100% guarantee but it's probably as well to
check out the reputation/credentials of the organisation involved.
Alternativelythere are those schemes which offer some first-hand
reporting back. The school at which my wife is a staff member has a
scheme whereby parents raise funds for projects in undeveloped
countries, and sending a team of older children (16+) to help
with the actual work. Last year they built and equipped a new
classroom in Kenya. Perhaps there are schools in your county or
state who do something similar and would be very appreciative of
help. That way you'd probably be able to feel more certain that
nobody was taking advantage ... Just a thought.
Baba Mung
Robert W.McKibben
months, you would have seen that the President of S Africa or whatever,
is denying that they have a Problem with Aids! Therefore, the stubborn
SOB isn't distributing the Millions of Dollars worth of Medical Supplies
that the US and others have been sending. If the shit is not going to be
used, Why Continue To Send It? Mr. Baba, I think you are an aggitator as
Some of the Group suspects.
Robert(Proud US Citizen!)
SHEESHE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Robert
Robert W.McKibben
to the People in need? I think not, when the Head Ni..whoops, Negro of
Africa, claims they Have No Problem!
Robert(tired of flushing Money down the Drain)
Robert W.McKibben
President is Fed Up) simply because their Head Nig....opps Negro won't
distribute the Millions in Aid that has been sent to them for the past
15 years!
Mr. Baba is an Agitator.
Robert
Robert W.McKibben
Robert
Yoj
stir them up again?
Joy
"Robert W.McKibben" <wes...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3B3A95BD...@flash.net...
Paul Goetze
racism contained in the post. Mr. McKibben through some of his posts
this evening has finally become persona non grata to me. Occasional
rage I can understand, sustained hate I can't.
Paul
"Yoj" <jgay...@att.net> wrote in
news:PBw_6.13244$3d3.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com
Robert W.McKibben
Africa concerining their head Nig.
Robert
Robert W.McKibben
I hate to agree with Marion, yet she has you figured.
Robert(Can't stand Religious Hypocrites)
Robert W.McKibben
Robert(anxiously awaiting your pious answer)
Robert W.McKibben
it is Negroes, Mexicans, Viet Cong, Laotians, Chinese or what. The
Ruling Bastard of the country isn't distributing the Millions in
Medicines that have been sent to them!
Contest me with facts and quit calling me a racist Preechur!
Robert(Proud to be a Real Baptist)
GeoGoddess
I beg your pardon, Robert?
a in bc
"Robert W.McKibben" <wes...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3B3A94BD...@flash.net...
GeoGoddess
Well, the UN is finally meeting to do something about the problem, Robert.
The reality of the aids epidemic in Africa is not a scam...it's real.
"Robert W.McKibben" <wes...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3B3A947A...@flash.net...
GeoGoddess
"Robert W.McKibben" <wes...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3B3AB7B4...@flash.net...
Graham
Robert I have politly kept out of this discussion but have
followed it with great intrest.
I have only one comment and that is
Robert shut up.
Graham.
"Robert W.McKibben" <wes...@flash.net> schreef in bericht
news:3B3ABCFD...@flash.net...
Robert W.McKibben
Janie
never spouted anything like that in here. I am really disappointed in you!
Janie
"Robert W.McKibben" wrote:
--
Robert W.McKibben
Robert(A Spade is a Spade)
Marian
Marian<opening a window>
Yoj
Joy
"Robert W.McKibben" <wes...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3B3AB7B4...@flash.net...
Kelly Petit
Janie <mb...@mediaone.net> a écrit dans le message : 3B3A60CB...@mediaone.net...
> I have often thought of adopting a child overseas so he/she can get the money to help them.
But, I
> am not convinced someone isn't getting rich off mine, and other people's, good hearts.
> Janie
>
money each month, but you can imagine that thousnads of people were in the same case. It was a
terrible scandal in Belgium when everything was discovered.
This happened some years ago, maybe 10 or more. I've forgotten that.
kelly
Kelly Petit
A delegation from our school has been down there, we help out with books and things like that
too.
At least we're sure that what we do really is of help to those who need it. Sure it's only a
drop in the ocean, but still I believe in small actions like that.
Kelly
Kelly Petit
Robert W.McKibben <wes...@flash.net> a écrit dans le message : 3B3A94BD...@flash.net...
> SPAM.
> Robert
>
>
I appreciate many of your posts, but not such as this one.
kelly
Kelly Petit
Robert W.McKibben <wes...@flash.net> a écrit dans le message : 3B3A93C0...@flash.net...
> Welp, iffn ya had been watchin The US News and 20/20 during the past 3
> months, you would have seen that the President of S Africa or whatever,
> is denying that they have a Problem with Aids! Therefore, the stubborn
> SOB isn't distributing the Millions of Dollars worth of Medical Supplies
> that the US and others have been sending. If the shit is not going to be
> used, Why Continue To Send It? Mr. Baba, I think you are an aggitator as
> Some of the Group suspects.
> Robert(Proud US Citizen!)
>
relationship between AIDS and HIV...
Get your head out of the sand, Robert - there's another world out there.
kelly
Kelly Petit
Robert W.McKibben <wes...@flash.net> a écrit dans le message : 3B3A947A...@flash.net...
> Mr. Baba, can you show proof that The Aids Donations are Actually going
> to the People in need? I think not, when the Head Ni..whoops, Negro of
> Africa, claims they Have No Problem!
> Robert(tired of flushing Money down the Drain)
>
reports?
Mrs Harlem Brundtland at the head of WHO is surely not a person to be fooled.
kelly
Kelly Petit
Robert W.McKibben <wes...@flash.net> a écrit dans le message : 3B3A95BD...@flash.net...
> Miriam, Clintdud Did Not Do Hockey to help these people(that is why Our
> President is Fed Up) simply because their Head Nig....opps Negro won't
> distribute the Millions in Aid that has been sent to them for the past
> 15 years!
> Mr. Baba is an Agitator.
> Robert
>
Kelly Petit
Paul Goetze <paul....@ns.sympatico.ca> a écrit dans le message :
Xns90CDF1A55988pa...@128.242.172.155...
> I second that, Joy! And I take great offense at the not so veiled
> racism contained in the post. Mr. McKibben through some of his posts
> this evening has finally become persona non grata to me. Occasional
> rage I can understand, sustained hate I can't.
>
> Paul
world!
Kelly - fed up
Kelly Petit
kelly
Robert W.McKibben <wes...@flash.net> a écrit dans le message : 3B3AB7B4...@flash.net...
Kelly Petit
long ago...
kelly
Janie <mb...@mediaone.net> a écrit dans le message : 3B3AAAE9...@mediaone.net...
Kelly Petit
unintelligent and vile.
I may not agree with all Marian says, but I've certainly never seen her as a racist!!
Kelly
Robert W.McKibben <wes...@flash.net> a écrit dans le message : 3B3AB8E9...@flash.net...
Al Gerber
<wes...@flash.net> writes:
>
>Miriam, Clintdud Did Not Do Hockey to help these people(that is why Our
>President is Fed Up) simply because their Head Nig....opps Negro won't
>distribute the Millions in Aid that has been sent to them for the past
>15 years!
>Mr. Baba is an Agitator.
>Robert
>
>
Robert, most of your post have the smell of the local sewage plant. Plain and
simple, they stink.
Li'l Al
=============
~~~Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange
for it. Establish your priorities and go to work.~~~
(H.L. Hunt)
Al Gerber
writes:
>
>Bull Shit Preachur. I only speak the truth about the Poor situation in
>Africa concerining their head Nig.
>Robert
>
Obviously Robert, a closed mind only is only perceptive of what is already
stored within. What you write only reinforces my feeling that you wouldn't
recognize any truth accept what you have already convinced your self is truth.
Kelly Petit
Al Gerber <a75...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message :
20010628055823...@nso-fm.aol.com...
Kelly
>
Al Gerber
<wes...@flash.net> writes:
>
>Up Yours Lady.
>
Good Baptist talk, Robert. <VBG> To bad you haven't given any indication of
having listened to or tried to practice what is taught.
Jean B.
>
> Okay, that does it. You're in my kill file.
>
> Joy
Ditto (for Robert, that is).
[Hateful remarks from Robert snipped.]
Jean B.
Vickie
>Date: 6/28/01
I am also tempted...I enjoy learning from diverse points of view, but he lost
me with "The Head Nig...oops Negro.."
I feel a little sorry for him...it's like he's one of the last dinosaurs and we
are all going at him with sharp sticks. Certain attitudes--childhood
teachings--can be so deeply ingrained that there's no room for fresh
views...ever.
Vickie
Paul Goetze
I like your compassion, Vickie. I also echo your sentiments. It is
sometimes very difficult to overcome ones background. I try to make
allowances for that, to be evenhanded in my dealings with others,
recognizing that I have prejudices of my own, so most of the time I
will steer clear of others' angry outbursts. But some things you can't
ignore ... to be silent when face to face with blatant racism is to
tacitly condone it. Because I *am* a preacher I can't just sit on my
typing finger and let it slide. As to Mr. McKibben, may the Lord bless
him and keep him and be gracious unto him.
Paul
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Kelly Petit
Paul Goetze <paul....@ns.sympatico.ca>
>But some things you can't
> ignore ... to be silent when face to face with blatant racism is to
> tacitly condone it.
That's what I think too. It's got nothing to do with stirring up things, there are moments when
you have to speak.
I was rather proud to be put in the same box as you though, Paul-:)
It's an ill wind that ....
Kelly
Vickie
>Date: 6/28/01
[..]
>But some things you can't
>ignore ... to be silent when face to face with blatant racism is to
>tacitly condone it.
Yes, I agree. It spurred me to speak out. I usually keep quiet during NG
tussles, still being "newbie-ish".
V
GeoGoddess
are...thorns in Roberts side, without particularly trying to be...
ann in bc
well, I know I'm generally on Paul's side...
b_...@bellsouth.net
is sheer ignorance that prompts Racism. If you don't know people, how can you judge them?
(not supposed to judge) What I mean is, we trust or "know" people we come into contact
with daily. Those we don't know, we don't "like" or trust. That breeds bigotry or bias. I
try hard not to dislike people I don't know well. When I meet someone new I keep quiet and
let them feel that I am willing to listen to their ideas. That will open a door to
friendship. It is ignorant of us to judge a whole race of people. We have no way of
knowing how they feel if we never give them a chance. Faye, born in the south and "taught"
bigotry.
Janie
admire you very much.
Janie
Paul Goetze wrote:
--
Knut W. Jakset
Would you please be so kind as to shake yourself. Very hard. From me.
Knut W.
"Robert W.McKibben" <wes...@flash.net> skrev i melding
news:3B3A94BD...@flash.net...
> SPAM.
> Robert
Yoj
news:lmcmjt0oc3a2f2vip...@4ax.com...
Paul, I didn't think my admiration for you could possibly increase, because
I already held you in high esteem. This post has proved that there was room
for that admiration to increase. You are a good man, Paul - better than
most of us.
Joy
Kelly Petit
GeoGoddess <gard...@mail.ocis.net> a écrit dans le message :
9hfid8$ddf6d$1...@ID-76624.news.dfncis.de...
Poor Joy is part of the group too, but from what I've seen from recent posts, the silent
majority has woken up too.
Kelly
Kelly Petit
<b_...@bellsouth.net> a écrit dans le message :
I1I_6.56040$HJ1.1...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
unknown as someone already pointed out.
Kelly
Keithlv1
<gard...@mail.ocis.net> writes:
>Robert...I've really had enough of your ignorant bashing of people! PLONK!
The "Pot" speaks from her glass house!
k
Keithlv1
writes:
>Robert I have politly kept out of this discussion but have
>followed it with great intrest.
>I have only one comment and that is
>Robert shut up.
>Graham.
Nothing like an intelligent critique.
k
Keithlv1
(Marian) writes:
>Robert, you & I agree on nothing at all.
>
>Marian<opening a window>
You, opening a window????? With the amount of hate you possess, you should be
living in Greenland. Sadly, you passed some of your hate to me, making me much
the worse off for it.
k
Keithlv1
I knew if I read long enough, I'd find an intelligent, and more importantly,
compassionate, post.
For a group that showed so much compassion for two English murderers......well,
I'm shocked, shocked I say, to see so little compassion for someone we've
known. Shocked, yet hardly surprised.
k
In article <20010628085910...@ng-cp1.aol.com>, vbfr...@aol.com
Keithlv1
<kelly...@wanadoo.fr> writes:
>I don't think that Marian deserves to be on the same boat as you here,
>Robert. This is
>unintelligent and vile.
>I may not agree with all Marian says, but I've certainly never seen her as a
>racist!!
>Kelly
What do you see her as? Obviously, someone to be scared of, but what else?
What do you call someone who calls a member "cow!" Another member, "Nazi"
Another member "Fascist!" .......a hundred other names during years of
vituperative posts meant for those who had the audacity to disagree with her.
What do you call that person?
Marian *built* the boat you speak of and it was because of newsgroup member's
appeasement and cowardice that you have threads like this today.
k
Keithlv1
<paul....@ns.sympatico.ca> writes:
>I second that, Joy! And I take great offense at the not so veiled
>racism contained in the post. Mr. McKibben through some of his posts
>this evening has finally become persona non grata to me. Occasional
>rage I can understand, sustained hate I can't.
>
>Paul
A couple of observations:
1/ It was blatant, not veiled in the least.
2/ I wonder, though, how many people in this group bought a house without
looking at the neighbors? (As Margaret and I did, having seen only a Chinese
couple across the street) ...... I suggest to you there are blatant racists and
run-of-the-mill-ordinary racists.....
3/ I am amazed that nobody took the time to address Robert's initial
observation - (I paraphrase here) that the president of South Africa, Mr.
Mbeki, doesn't even accept the link of HIV with AIDS. While I understand that
the majority of people in this group either don't care or don't know (probably
both) who the president of South Africa is, I do think it would be nice if we
could stick to the subject matter occasionally (while we throw our stones.)
And, as a matter of fact, his point is valid.
4/ Summing up, as much as I protest Robert's evident racism (at least in the
post in question as well as in prior posts about misadventures with Wal-Mart),
I shake my head, sadly, at the amout of hypocrisy generated by some very
ignorant people on the far-left of this, increasingly, left-leaning newsgroup.
Paul, so as not to be misunderstood, only the comment in #1 above applies to
you.
As a man of the cloth I expect you would be outraged, as well you should. I,
as a lay person, with little prejudice, certainly was. I have found you fair,
obviously educated, and not hypocritical. I wish I could say the same for many
others who joined in the condemnation. .....Those genuinely concered with evil
must thwart it at every turn. Not only when an enemy utters it, not only when
a member of the opposite party utters it. All the time, as Janie did, and
does. As I expect Jan would and J.D. would. You want to stick your head in
the sand and pretend that there is no evil in this group, go ahead, but at
least have the honesty to *not* be selective in your evil-picking. Saying
grace every day doesn't make it any better if you hate your next-door-neighbor.
k
>"Yoj" <jgay...@att.net> wrote in
>news:PBw_6.13244$3d3.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>> Robert, things have finally calmed down around her. Why are you
>> trying to stir them up again?
>>
>> Joy
>>
>> "Robert W.McKibben" <wes...@flash.net> wrote in message
>> news:3B3A95BD...@flash.net...
Keithlv1
<gard...@mail.ocis.net> writes:
>Well, the UN is finally meeting to do something about the problem, Robert.
>The reality of the aids epidemic in Africa is not a scam...it's real.
As it is, if not to the same extent, in the U.S. ....
David Horowitz
The 20TH Anniversary of an American Killing Fields
http://www.jewishworldreview.com
AS countless news stories, articles and editorials have reminded us, this is
the 20th anniversary of the onset of the AIDS epidemic in America. It is a grim
anniversary. More than 450,000 Americans, mostly young, are dead. The news
story is this: after years of "education" efforts, and billions of dollars in
AIDS-related government programs, the infection rates for new AIDS cases are
rising back to their peak levels. In related news, the new infection rates are
highest among blacks and Hispanics, who now make up more than half the dead but
who were hardly affected in the first years of the epidemic. In those years,
when the numbers of those infected were small and effective public health
methods might have contained its spread to new communities, more than 90
percent of those affected were white homosexuals living in New York, Los
Angeles and San Francisco, IV drug-users in the same locations, and a tiny
cohort of hemophiliacs and immigrants from Haiti. On this anniversary, you will
read many stories about the medical research on AIDS which -- however
remarkable in itself -- has failed to produce an effective vaccine let alone a
cure for the disease. This failure was predicted at the very outset of the
epidemic, a fact I wrote about at the time. The leading experts on the epidemic
warned then that the only way to stem the tide of the epidemic was through
public health methods.
You will read many stories about the heroic efforts of activists in the gay
community, to lobby the government for more AIDS money, and to care for the
sick and dying. None of these efforts should be confused with public health
methods for combating epidemics, however. What you will not read is a single
story about those methods, or how epidemics were combated – often
successfully -- for a hundred years prior to 1981, before gay activists
inserted themselves into the public health system. What you will not read is
how the proven public health methods were opposed by AIDS activists, and how
public health officials surrendered to the activists’ demands for
veto-control over which methods were acceptable and which were not, or how they
then colluded in subverting the system that had proved so successful in the
past.
What you will not read is any evaluation of the AIDS campaigns – mainly
"education" – that the activists demanded in place of the proven methods. Yet
the harrowing figures released on this anniversary show these
politically-correct, billion-dollar campaigns have failed miserably to contain
the epidemic or to prevent it from spreading into other communities,
particularly the African-American and Hispanic communities. In the first five
years of the epidemic, sexually transmitted AIDS was virtually confined to the
white gay communities in the three major centers – New York, Los Angeles and
San Francisco. As a result of the obstruction of testing, reporting, contact
tracing and infection-site closing by gay leaders and their allies in the
Democratic parties that controlled these cities, public health officials could
not warn communities in the path of the epidemic – in fact, were not able to
find out what that path was. As a result, by the end of the first decade of
AIDS, Hispanics were 14 percent of those infected and blacks were 26 percent. A
decade later, Hispanics were 19 percent of those infected and blacks an
astounding 45 percent.
What you will not read in the 20th anniversary coverage of the epidemic is any
story on the fact that today – as we move into the third decade of the
epidemic with infection rates rising and the death toll climbing – the
subverted public health system still does not require reporting of individual
cases, testing of at-risk communities, contact tracing to warn individuals of
possible infection or the closing of sex clubs and other potential sites of
infection.
Thus in addition to being a grim anniversary from the vantage of the dead and
those who loved them, this is a disheartening occasion for those of us who have
paid attention to the course of this contagion and have watched in disbelief
the criminally ineffectual efforts that have been deployed in the name of
political correctness to contain it. This anniversary also makes clear that as
a nation we have learned nothing from the follies of the past, and are headed
into the next decade still prisoners of orchestrated ignorance and still
relying on the remedies that failed.
The following paragraph is taken from a lead story in the Health Section of the
Los Angeles Times, the paper of record in one of the metropolitan centers of
the epidemic from the beginning. It was written by "Times health writer," Linda
Marsa, and rehashes the familiar party line on AIDS, conveying "information"
that is brazenly ignorant and entirely false. In perfect self-parody, the
article is titled "A Legacy of Change."
It was a sheer accident that AIDS first struck a relatively cohesive group:
young homosexuals in cities such as New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco,
many of whom had honed their organizational and political skills during the gay
rights movements of the 1970s. This was extraordinary: Terminal illnesses
don’t discriminate, hitting rich and poor alike without regard to ethnicity,
geography or sexual orientation.
In fact, the AIDS epidemic is more accurately described as a product of the gay
rights movement of the 1970s, inevitably concentrated in the very centers of
gay life in America -- San Francisco, New York and Los Angeles -- and
impossible to conceive without the presence and agitations of the radical gay
movements that directly preceded it. It was the gay radical left that defined
promiscuous anal sex with strangers in public urban environments – the
primary cause of the AIDS epidemic – as "gay liberation."
It was the gay movement that thought nothing of the massive epidemics of
amoebiasis, rectal gonorrhea, syphilis, and hepatitis B that swept through gay
communities in the decades preceding AIDS, producing astronomical infection
rates and depleted immune systems in the process. It was the gay movement that
regarded any intrusion by public health authorities to close the public sexual
gymnasiums called "bathhouses" as a "threat" to gay liberation (both before and
after the onset of AIDS).
It was the gay left that successfully prevented reporting, testing, contact
tracing and other public health methods that had been proven effective in
combating epidemic diseases in the past. It was the gay left that blocked
government prevention programs from targeting at-risk communities (using the
same lie as the Times writer -- that "AIDS is an equal opportunity disease"),
and it was the gay left that persuaded government officials instead to put all
the anti-AIDS eggs in the basket of incredibly expensive and – as everyone
can now see – completely ineffective "education" campaigns. These campaigns
were ineffective because – out of considerations of political correctness –
they did not specify anal sex as the primary sexual transmission route and were
addressed not to those who were specifically at risk, but to "everyone," and
thus in effect to no one.
The late Michael Callen, creator of the organization "People With AIDS," and a
pioneer of candor in the midst of these lies, described how he had come to New
York as a young man from the sticks and heard gay radicals like the writer
Edmund White address audiences in the gay community on the subject of sexual
liberation. White told one such audience that Callen was in that "gay men
should wear their sexually transmitted diseases like red badges of courage in a
war against a sex-negative society." As a young romantic listening to this
siren song of the left, Callen’s natural response was to think: "Every time I
get the clap I’m striking a blow for the sexual revolution." The
ever-courageous Camille Paglia pointed out some years ago the obvious truth:
"Everyone who preached free love in the Sixties is responsible for AIDS. This
idea that it was somehow an accident, a microbe that sort of fell from heaven
– absurd. We must face what we did."
Michael Callen explained exactly what "we" did: "Some of us believed we could
change the world through sexual liberation and that we were taking part in a
noble experiment. Unfortunately as a function of a microbiological …
certainty, this level of sexual activity resulted in concurrent epidemics of
syphilis, gonorrhea, hepatitis, amoebiasis, venereal warts and, we discovered
too late, other pathogens. Unwittingly, and with the best of revolutionary
intentions, a small subset of gay men managed to create disease settings
equivalent to those of poor Third World nations in one of the richest nations
on earth."
It was a tragedy that those who pioneered in the establishment of gay rights
should have been addicted to a radical illusion that they could also change the
world – including the laws of nature. But that is what happened. This left
went on to exert a controlling influence on the battle against AIDS, which
sabotaged it from the start and has been directly responsible for the killing
fields left in its wake. This includes especially the spread of AIDS into the
black and Hispanic communities, which could have been prevented if traditional
public health methods had been aggressively deployed in the early years. The
Hispanic and black communities are for the most part separated in many ways
from the gay communities where the epidemic first took hold. If there had been
testing and tracing of those infected and focused warnings to those in their
path, who knows how many lives could have been saved in the gay community
itself, but especially in communities that lay outside the zones of the initial
infections?
I offer these observations with no hope that they will have an effect. I have
written about this "radical holocaust" (as I described it in The Politics of
Bad Faith), for nearly the entire duration of this terrible epidemic. Many
others have raised their voices as well. Michael Fumento’s The Myth of
Heterosexual AIDS, and Gabriel Rotello’s Sexual Ecology have made the case
for ending the political domination of the war against AIDS in a more
scientific manner. Early Act-Up radicals like Larry Kramer, Michaelangelo
Signorille and Gabriel Rotello have had second thoughts about their former
attitudes and have faced what they did. They have organized in an effort to
turn the tide. But to no avail.
The chief obstacle to any change in this story is the media itself. AIDS is
without question the worst reported story in the history of American
journalism. From the press coverage of this anniversary, no one can take any
hope that – in the absence of a scientific breakthrough -- the next ten years
will show any improvement in the mortality statistics. Without accurate
information about this politically induced tragedy, there is no chance that the
American public will wake up, and finally decide that enough is enough.
Keithlv1
<jgay...@att.net> writes:
>Paul, I didn't think my admiration for you could possibly increase, because
>I already held you in high esteem. This post has proved that there was room
>for that admiration to increase. You are a good man, Paul - better than
>most of us
Which wouldn't be hard. :)
Better you'd left it as, "You are a good man, Paul." That, I could agree with.
k
Keithlv1
<kelly...@wanadoo.fr> writes:
>> Does anyone think they are not affected by what goes on in other parts of
>the world?? It
>> is sheer ignorance that prompts Racism. If you don't know people, how can
>you judge them?
>> (not supposed to judge) What I mean is, we trust or "know" people we come
>into contact
>> with daily. Those we don't know, we don't "like" or trust. That breeds
>bigotry or bias. I
>> try hard not to dislike people I don't know well. When I meet someone new I
>keep quiet and
>> let them feel that I am willing to listen to their ideas. That will open a
>door to
>> friendship. It is ignorant of us to judge a whole race of people. We have
>no way of
>> knowing how they feel if we never give them a chance. Faye, born in the
>south and "taught"
>> bigotry.
>>
>Faye, I think you've got to the core of the problem. It can all be boilded
>down to fear of the
>unknown as someone already pointed out.
>Kelly
Actually, sometimes it is the exact opposite - victims of crime perpetrated by
other races, are often bigoted against members of that race. Thus, for many,
it is fear of ....what they perceive as *known*). In either case, playing
amateur psychologist only works if we have the best interests of the subject in
mind. Being that most posts have been of a condemnation mode rather than in a
compassionate mode, it strikes me that further analysis would be futile.
k
Janie
Paul. None of this is needed. You just had to say nothing.
Janie
Keithlv1 wrote:
--
Keithlv1
>You fail to see, keith, that I am against any attacks, especially against Ann
>or Paul. None of this is needed. You just had to say nothing.
>Janie
First, I don't "fail to see" any such thing. If you read my post again, you
will see that is exactly what I said. More credit to you.
Second, while you are rereading said post, you will notice I have gone out of
my way to explain that I was *not* doing exactly what you have accused me of -
attacking Paul. While I admire your fairness I do wish you would read what I
say a bit more carefully.
As for Ann, she *is* tossing rocks from glass houses. To call someone a
son-of-a-bitch and then run away.....only to return to protest "hatred" is more
than a little hypocritical. But as we have often seen that to be an effective
weapon of the left - take no prisoners, destroy. My statement about Ann was
the truth, not an attack in any way.
You suggest I should have said nothing. If I did that I'd be endorsing
sanctimonius lynch mobs. Which I do not.
k, who would still like to know who else in this group of unprejudiced good
folk bought their house without looking at the neighbors? Well? ..... Your
silence speaks volumes.
Michael Fanner
Keithlv1 <keit...@cs.com> wrote:
[Snip]
> Nothing
[Snip]
> k
Michael Fanner
Michael Fanner
Keithlv1 <keit...@cs.com> wrote:
> First
[Snip]
> volumes.