At last a woman Royal Marine.
Ian
but unfortunately no woman has ever been able to pick up and carry a
fourteen stone man with bullet wounds off a theatre of operations, and
so it's a complete waste of time, as she'll never fight in combat.
However, it's good that there's at least one woman who knows that
99.9999999% of women will never compete successfully with men in a
fight, because perhaps feminists will listen to her that defence is
not a social experiment.
The british government were desperate for this woman to get through as
it would in part, stop the ridiculing of their ludicrous capitualation
to feminist direction of policy, caused by the total lack of success,
or indeed point of females in the military. (Not to mention that Tony
needs all the soldiers he can get, having cut the defence funding for
years, inspite of the obvious.)
Jen Larson
Ian wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_2017000/2017213.stm
> but unfortunately no woman has ever been able to pick up and carry a
> fourteen stone man with bullet wounds off a theatre of operations, and
> so it's a complete waste of time, as she'll never fight in combat.
Always have and will fight, women (the fittest). It's in our blood.
> However, it's good that there's at least one woman who knows that
> 99.9999999% of women will never compete successfully with men in a
> fight, because perhaps feminists will listen to her that defence is
> not a social experiment.
Basic combat fitness is easily reachable for _many_ women, this is
special forces level training.
Greg
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_2017000/2017213.stm
>
> but unfortunately no woman has ever been able to pick up and carry a
> fourteen stone man with bullet wounds off a theatre of operations, and
> so it's a complete waste of time, as she'll never fight in combat.
Don't worry. She can always drag a man by the ankles, like female
fire fighters here in the US.
> However, it's good that there's at least one woman who knows that
> 99.9999999% of women will never compete successfully with men in a
> fight, because perhaps feminists will listen to her that defence is
> not a social experiment.
<start sarcasm>
But Ian, don't you realize that combat will never ever again require
strength and speed? It's all going to be done in armored vehicles
that never break down and that can traverse any terrain. Soldiers
will _always_ shoot from a distance. And since they'll never run out
of ammo, they will _never_ engage in hand-to-hand combat, using their
rifles as clubs and using bayonettes. It is an absolute
impossibility, Ian. Ergo, even the most slow, weak woman is qualified
to serve in combat alongside the toughest, most battle-hardened Royal
Marine Commando. We are all horrid sexists for questionining women's
ability to do this.
<end sarcasm>
Suppose I were to walk into the front door of Cisco Systems and say,
"I really know bugger all about programming, networking, or anything
else related to computer networks, so I'm not really qualified to do
anything at all for you. I could probably do a little, provided you
gave me alot of expensive traning, but I'd never be as useful to you
as someone with a computer engineering degree. Nonetheless, I demand
you hire me, because I really really want you to. I _want_ to work
for Cisco, and Cisco should therefore hire me. If you don't, you're
discriminating against me!"
What do you think the HR Manager would say to me? "Security, please
come to HR."
<snip>
Jen Larson
Anthony Armstrong Blair wrote:
> >Basic combat fitness is easily reachable for _many_ women, this is
> >special forces level training.
> The Royal Marines are not special forces, they are a part of the Royal
> Navy. Don't be confused by the green beret.
From the article:
Captain Tattersall, from Tarland in
Aberdeenshire, passed the nine-week all-arms
commando course, widely regarded as one of
the toughest in the world.
> Britain's only special forces is the Special Air Service. The SAS has
> no female members.
Mkay, my bad, it's still not -basic- infantry training is it?
> BTW, the female who finally won a green beret from the Royal Marines
> did so on her third attempt and carried "normalised" weights. The word
> "normalised" is Ministry of Defence speak for "lighter".
Mkay, name the weight the men carry. She carried 35.
> You may draw your own conclusions about whether or not the fact that
> she is an army officer and is related to senior officers had any
> bearing on her being allowed to pass after two failures.
Is anyone allowed to try for a third time if failed out twice?
Terry
"Jen Larson" <stra...@udel.edu> wrote in message
news:3CF7EEB3...@udel.edu...
Yes. You get three attempts
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/2002
Sky King
terry_...@hotmail.com says...
>
> "Jen Larson" <stra...@udel.edu> wrote in message
> news:3CF7EEB3...@udel.edu...
> >
> >
> > Anthony Armstrong Blair wrote:
> >
> > > >Basic combat fitness is easily reachable for _many_ women, this is
> > > >special forces level training.
> >
> > > The Royal Marines are not special forces, they are a part of the Royal
> > > Navy. Don't be confused by the green beret.
> >
> >
> > From the article:
> >
> > Captain Tattersall, from Tarland in
> > Aberdeenshire, passed the nine-week all-arms
> > commando course, widely regarded as one of
> > the toughest in the world.
> >
> > > Britain's only special forces is the Special Air Service. The SAS has
> > > no female members.
> >
> > Mkay, my bad, it's still not -basic- infantry training is it?
> >
> > > BTW, the female who finally won a green beret from the Royal Marines
> > > did so on her third attempt and carried "normalised" weights. The word
> > > "normalised" is Ministry of Defence speak for "lighter".
> >
> > Mkay, name the weight the men carry. She carried 35.
> >
> > > You may draw your own conclusions about whether or not the fact that
> > > she is an army officer and is related to senior officers had any
> > > bearing on her being allowed to pass after two failures.
> >
> > Is anyone allowed to try for a third time if failed out twice?
>
> Yes. You get three attempts
>
>
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/article/0,,9003-2002042998,00.html
FYI
Sunday Times
27 January 2002
Women troops to be kept off front line
James Clark, Defence Correspondent
Wowmn will not be allowed to fight with frontline units in the British
military, Geoff Hoon, the defence secretary, will announce next month.
The hell you say.........chuckle
sky
The saga over whether women should be allowed to join units such as the
Parachute Regiment, SAS, marines and armoured regiments has been running
since Labour took office in 1997.
A report on the issue, known as the Combat Effectiveness Gender Study
(CEGS) and written by the army on behalf of all three services, was
handed
into the chiefs of staff, Britain's most senior military figures, last
summer. It showed that while some exceptional female candidates could
manage frontline roles, most are not physically up to the job.
They just can't hang. Tsk. Tsk. sky
Hoon will announce that women will continue to be barred from "direct-
fire
close combat" roles or roles where close-quarter fighting with the enemy
is
likely.
Gee, why am I not surprised. Its what I have been saying all along.
sky
The move is sure to cause ructions among Labour backbenchers, many of
whom
regard the army's bar on women as sexism. However, it will please Iain
Duncan Smith, the Tory leader who, as shadow defence secretary under
William Hague, backed the status quo.
So if women are given a chance and they can't do the job its sexism.?
sky
Alice Mahon, Labour MP, said: "I suspect that many of these tests were
flawed. If women compete physically with men, then obviously most will
fail. The truth is that most fighting these days is done from 20,000ft.
I
will be disappointed with the announcement."
Oh and now the "flawed" test strategy. By flawed they mean to hard for
the little women. Note how she predicts that women and men will no
longer have to fight anyway. They are starting to sound like the
feminist in the US. They predict no more pack carrying, no long
marches, They will have little thingies to help them with everything.
If a woman cannot do it the job requires a bot. chuckle
sky
However, Claire Ward, another MP, disagreed. She spent a year alongside
the
Royal Marines as part of a parliamentary armed forces scheme, in which
MPs
experience military life. "I arrived with the view that women should
have
the right to do this and told them so," said Ward. "But after a year I
had
my mind changed.
At least one that had actually been there tells the truth. sky
"I don't think women are physically built for it, and I also think that
while the lads I knew were mature and calm, they are trained to be very
aggressive and, let's be frank, to kill, often with bare hands. I
believe
firmly in equality, but men and women are different."
So men and women are different. They wasted a lot of money to find out
what most of us already knew. sky
At present 73% of navy jobs are open to women, with the marines, the
Special Boat Squadron and submarines exempted. In the army, the figure
is
70% with infantry, armour and SAS exempted. In the RAF, 96% of jobs are
available to women, including piloting fighter jets.
Women can still serve in war zones, with a number currently in
Afghanistan,
but they are excluded from units whose role it is to engage with the
enemy.
Note that they can serve in war ZONES but are excluded from units whose
role it is to engage with the enemy. Even the Brits know the difference
between a combat zone and COMBAT. sky
As well as gathering data from across the world, especially from
America,
Israel and Scandinavia where women are used in some frontline roles, the
CEGS authors carried out a host of physical tests on groups of male and
female soldiers in the Brecon Beacons in Wales.
It was thought that the most serious problems might emerge in the way
the
soldiers interacted. However, while the cohesion of mixed-sex units
suffered slightly, the report found stark differences in performance.
Tests
also showed that the injury rate among women was double that of male
soldiers.
Double the rate of men. Again I am not surprised. sky
The army went out of its way to compile an "open-minded and scientific"
report, said a senior Ministry of Defence figure: "This is a report full
of
scientific data, not opinions. It had to be done fairly and it has
been."
I bet they went out of their way to TRY and make sure these women could
pass and it still didn't work. Its back to support roles for them.
sky
While the announcement will delight traditionalists, the ministry is
preparing for a legal challenge. Lawyers have advised that a case could
be
brought under the European convention on human rights if an applicant
claimed she was denied a job on grounds of gender.
LOL. They are not admitted because they cannot perform. sky
Last year opponents of the ban had a potential champion in Philippa
Tattersall, 26, an army captain who attempted the arduous all-arms
commando
course one of the world's toughest. Somewhat unfairly, she became a
talisman for women's groups after failing on the last part, having
outperformed most of the male applicants.
Poor baby. chuckle
sky
>
>
Angilion
and I wasn't wrong.
1) "woman Royal Marine" is just a grammatical mistake from someone
who doesn't understand English very well. "woman" is not an
adjective. The correct phrase would be "female Royal Marine", if
you think her sex must be prominently referred to.
2) The woman in question is *not* a Royal Marine. If I cared, I
could probably find out what military unit she is in, but I know it
is not the RMC. She has officially attained the standards required for
a member of the RMC, but she is not in the RMC. If you get
a close enough look at her beret, you will see the cap badge
of her regiment and it's not the RMC.
3) Why "at last"?
4) Why detract from Captain Tattersall's achievement by
emphasising her sex rather than her achievement and making
it a political rather than personal issue? She passed the
test, not her genito-urinary system. Assuming she did pass
the test. I've been told some things this evening IRL which
cast doubt on that.
Some inaccuracies have already been addressed, such as
referring to the RMC as special forces.
I've replied more specifically to the post, below.
On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:41:06 +0100, "Terry" <terry_...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>"Jen Larson" <stra...@udel.edu> wrote in message
>news:3CF7EEB3...@udel.edu...
>>
>> Anthony Armstrong Blair wrote:
>>
>> > >Basic combat fitness is easily reachable for _many_ women, this is
>> > >special forces level training.
>>
>> > The Royal Marines are not special forces, they are a part of the Royal
>> > Navy. Don't be confused by the green beret.
>>
>> From the article:
>>
>> Captain Tattersall, from Tarland in
>> Aberdeenshire, passed the nine-week all-arms
>> commando course, widely regarded as one of
>> the toughest in the world.
>>
>> > Britain's only special forces is the Special Air Service. The SAS has
>> > no female members.
Isn't the Special Boat Service also seen as a special forces unit?
>> Mkay, my bad, it's still not -basic- infantry training is it?
No. You can check out the requirements for the RMC All
Arms Course online, IIRC. It's not classified. I've provided an
URL for details on the usual RMC training, below. IIRC,
the RMC All Arms Course is essentially the Commando Training
section from the RMC training, since the training prior to
that is much the same as the basic training people who are
allowed to attempt the RMC All Arms Course already have
(it's only open to soldiers).
>> > BTW, the female who finally won a green beret from the Royal Marines
>> > did so on her third attempt and carried "normalised" weights. The word
>> > "normalised" is Ministry of Defence speak for "lighter".
>>
>> Mkay, name the weight the men carry. She carried 35.
35 what? lbs? Kg? Onions? Or are you using the word "weight"
correctly, i.e. 35N?
If she was carrying 35lbs, she was carrying less than half the
weight required to pass the real RMC All Arms Course.
If she was carrying 35Kg, she was carrying the right amount.
I would like this cleared up. I thought the British Army did away with
the usual feminist sexism in 1998. Now I am being told it's present
in the RMC, of all places.
Evidence, please.
Nice statement on the website - "Join the RMC. 99.99% need not apply".
Details here:
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/1370.html
[..]
--
Always remember you're unique.
Just like everyone else. (Anon)
Angilion
<lemu...@mindXspring.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 15 Jun 2002 23:28:05 GMT, angi...@ypical.fsnet.co.uk (Angilion) expounded:
>
><I was expecting inaccuracies about this in alt.feminism
><and I wasn't wrong.
>
><>> > BTW, the female who finally won a green beret from the Royal Marines
><>> > did so on her third attempt and carried "normalised" weights. The word
><>> > "normalised" is Ministry of Defence speak for "lighter".
><>>
><>> Mkay, name the weight the men carry. She carried 35.
><
><35 what? lbs? Kg? Onions? Or are you using the word "weight"
><correctly, i.e. 35N?
><
><If she was carrying 35lbs, she was carrying less than half the
><weight required to pass the real RMC All Arms Course.
>
>Correct.
><
><If she was carrying 35Kg, she was carrying the right amount.
><
>Here's what "Pip" did:
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_2017000/2017213.stm
> On Wednesday, Capt Tattersall completed a 30-mile yomp over Dartmoor in
> less than eight hours, carrying a 35lb pack and an SA80 rifle.
Ah.....she was carrying just the fighting kit. People who have actually
passed the RMC All Arms Course have to do that 30-mile yomp over
Dartmoor (it's very rough ground with a lot of varying gradients) in
less than 8 hours carrying full kit plus additional tools, survival gear,
everything a soldier might need to survive in the wild in the long term.
That weighs over 70lbs.
I might be able to do that test with a 35lb pack, and I am nowhere
near physically good enough for the regular army, let alone the
RMC. Using a 35lb pack isn't even a quarter of the real test.
Before anyone who is ignorant of physiology points out that
35 is half of 70, I suggest they try jogging with a 35lb pack and
then jogging the same distance with a 70lb pack, and then
judge if it is only twice as hard. Unless you have strength close
to the limit for a human, it won't be just twice as hard.
That's just the last test for the real RMC standard, rather than the
little women standard. I wonder if Captain Tattersall did any of
the other tests at all? If so, did she meet the real standard or the
little women standard? Did she earn her rank at all?
That article you quoted also mentions scaling a 6ft wall as
part of the 2nd assault course. It's a 12ft wall in the real
standard, and there's a 30ft wall too. I can scale a 6ft wall
carrying 31lbs. 31lbs isn't much.
Compare the two:
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/1370.html (scroll to the bottom)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_2017000/2017213.stm
The first is the real standard, the second is the little women
standard.
Last night, a friend who watches daytime TV for light relief
when she's off work talked about Pip's appearances on
the usual lineup of crap shows, which were crappier than
usual. Pip had a makeover and giggled with the other
overgrown girlies, basically. My impression was that she
is a poster-figure for the military's attempts to recruit more
women. Join the military! Don't worry, you won't have to
do anything nasty, hard or dirty. We have men to do those
things for you.
try www.thismorning.co.uk and look for the show on Sat 15th
June (it's not up today, Sunday, but it will probably be up
tomorrow). They will probably put the pictures up. Look at
Pip's shoulders and arms. Are they the shoulders and arms
of a commando? Not just an ordinary soldier, but a commando.
Unless the BBC have got all the figures wrong, the RMC has
been dishonoured for the sake of political expediency.
Sky King
lemu...@mindXspring.com says...
> <and I wasn't wrong.
>
> <>> > did so on her third attempt and carried "normalised" weights. The word
> <>> > "normalised" is Ministry of Defence speak for "lighter".
> <>>
> <>> Mkay, name the weight the men carry. She carried 35.
> <
> <35 what? lbs? Kg? Onions? Or are you using the word "weight"
> <correctly, i.e. 35N?
> <
> <If she was carrying 35lbs, she was carrying less than half the
> <weight required to pass the real RMC All Arms Course.
>
>
> <
> <If she was carrying 35Kg, she was carrying the right amount.
> <
>
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_2017000/2017213.stm
> On Wednesday, Capt Tattersall completed a 30-mile yomp over Dartmoor in
> less than eight hours, carrying a 35lb pack and an SA80 rifle.
>
>
>
> http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/1370.html
> Training culminates in an eight day Final Exercise, during which the
> Recruits will 'yomp' over 70 miles in full equipment carrying about 70lbs.
>
>
> In other words: she didn't actually qualify.
>
>
Read this.
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/article/0,,9003-2002042998,00.html
FYI
However, Claire Ward, another MP, disagreed. She spent a year alongside
the
Poor baby. chuckle
sky
>
>
>
> They are>touted to be the best in the world due to their highly selective
> >recruiting process and training standards. If this political bitch was
> >a male she would have washed out long ago and would not have been
> >given another chance.
> >
> {Parg} Ho hum....doing my nails.....Dickwads like you are no longer in charge,
> hon. This man's army is getting integrated, like it or not.
>
> >
Sky King
lemu...@mindXspring.com says...
> On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 00:02:48 -0600, Mr. F. Le Mur <lemu...@mindXspring.com> expounded:
>
> <Here's what "Pip" did:
> <
> < http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_2017000/2017213.stm
> < On Wednesday, Capt Tattersall completed a 30-mile yomp over Dartmoor in
> < less than eight hours, carrying a 35lb pack and an SA80 rifle.
> <
> <
> <Here's what the men do:
> <
> < http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/1370.html
> < Training culminates in an eight day Final Exercise, during which the
> < Recruits will 'yomp' over 70 miles in full equipment carrying about 70lbs.
> <
> <
> <In other words: she didn't actually qualify.
>
>
>
> The 30 Mile Load Carry
> Carrying full fighting order, safety equipment and weapons both Recruits and
> Officers must complete a 30 mile 'yomp' across Dartmoor. Starting early in
> the morning they will be split into teams and required to navigate their
> way across the moor.
> Time: Recruits 8 hours, Officers 7 hours.
> (no weight given)
Angilion
<lemu...@mindXspring.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 00:02:48 -0600, Mr. F. Le Mur <lemu...@mindXspring.com> expounded:
>
><Here's what "Pip" did:
><
>< http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_2017000/2017213.stm
>< On Wednesday, Capt Tattersall completed a 30-mile yomp over Dartmoor in
>< less than eight hours, carrying a 35lb pack and an SA80 rifle.
><
><Here's what the men do:
><
>< http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/1370.html
>< Training culminates in an eight day Final Exercise, during which the
>< Recruits will 'yomp' over 70 miles in full equipment carrying about 70lbs.
><
><In other words: she didn't actually qualify.
>
>Same (2nd) URL, further down:
>
>The 30 Mile Load Carry
>Carrying full fighting order, safety equipment and weapons both Recruits and
>Officers must complete a 30 mile 'yomp' across Dartmoor. Starting early in
>the morning they will be split into teams and required to navigate their
>way across the moor.
>Time: Recruits 8 hours, Officers 7 hours.
>(no weight given)
There is, indirectly. "full fighting order, safety equipment and weapons"
is the "about 70lbs" referred to further up.
Ian
> I was expecting inaccuracies about this in alt.feminism
> and I wasn't wrong.
>
> 1) "woman Royal Marine" is just a grammatical mistake from someone
> who doesn't understand English very well. "woman" is not an
> adjective. The correct phrase would be "female Royal Marine", if
> you think her sex must be prominently referred to.
Oh yes it is. WPC. (Woman police constable)
>
> 3) Why "at last"?
Because the government is slobbering to keep women, they need them because
of the defence cuts they've been making.
>
> 4) Why detract from Captain Tattersall's achievement by
> emphasising her sex rather than her achievement and making
> it a political rather than personal issue? She passed the
> test, not her genito-urinary system. Assuming she did pass
> the test. I've been told some things this evening IRL which
> cast doubt on that.
>
I have to say that I personally wasn't Angillion. I was actually praising
her. Credit where credit's due. However I think it's a total waste of
time and our money (men's tax) to even let her enter the testing.
It's a pity there are no politicians with the balls to say it. That's what
happens when you get politicians who have no other job. I guess.
Angilion
>angi...@ypical.fsnet.co.uk (Angilion) wrote in message news:<3d0bc99d...@news.freeserve.net>...
>> I was expecting inaccuracies about this in alt.feminism
>> and I wasn't wrong.
>>
>> 1) "woman Royal Marine" is just a grammatical mistake from someone
>> who doesn't understand English very well. "woman" is not an
>> adjective. The correct phrase would be "female Royal Marine", if
>> you think her sex must be prominently referred to.
>
>Oh yes it is. WPC. (Woman police constable)
An extremely clumsy way to refer to a constable who
polices women, or a mistake as above. "woman" is
not an adjective, no matter how many semiliterate
oafs use it as such.
>> 3) Why "at last"?
>
>Because the government is slobbering to keep women, they need them because
>of the defence cuts they've been making.
>
>>
>> 4) Why detract from Captain Tattersall's achievement by
>> emphasising her sex rather than her achievement and making
>> it a political rather than personal issue? She passed the
>> test, not her genito-urinary system. Assuming she did pass
>> the test. I've been told some things this evening IRL which
>> cast doubt on that.
>
>I have to say that I personally wasn't Angillion. I was actually praising
>her. Credit where credit's due.
See the rest of this thread - it appears she had half-height walls on
the assault course and half-weight kit on the endurance tests.