DragonCon 99 Report Card (primarily from a gaming perspective)
Mike Yearick
I look forward to 2001 and beyond when DragonCon does not go up
against Origins (although I may have a tough choice in 2004 when
WorldCon in Charlotte is the week before DragonCon in Atlanta).
Detailed report below…
01.Gaming Registration: C-
There were no specific event tickets for board games. None. Hard to
believe but it was true. This led many folks (including the staff at
gaming registration) to believe (and the staff to tell gamers) that
there was no charge at all for any of the board gaming tournaments.
Of course, there was a charge but one could not pre-register for board
game events. One could buy generic tickets or pay the judge $3 at the
table for each event. Not sure if this plan was due to lack of
organization or what. Registration for the B5 card games went without
a hitch.
02.Board Gaming: C-
My friends, family, co-workers and I come to DragonCon primarily to
play board games. Unfortunately, there were a grand total of about 10
board game tournaments scheduled throughout the 4 days. No, that is
not a misprint. And no, I did not intend to say 10 events per
session. 10 events period. There was not one train game scheduled
(and I think that my group playing Eurorails were the only folks that
played a train game all weekend (other than maybe Union Pacific-does
that count as an official train game??). Where were you Dave,
Anthony, Ed?? See comment about Origins above in the executive
summary.
Given the farce of prize distribution for board gamers last year (and
the improbability of a change this year) and given the fact that last
year's tournament winners were never listed on the web pages
(effectively removing wealth and fame as motivators) we took a
different approach this year. We did not pay to play (there were a
couple of exceptions). Since we own and bring the boards for 90% of
the tourney games we just decided to play the tournament games but not
actually enter the tournament. We had already paid for the space via
the main DragonCon registration fee and saw no reason to pay extra
(although the extra competition would have been nice for a few of the
games). We invited anybody else that wanted to participate to join us
and had several takers. May have been the best decision of the Con.
They did provide much needed water (and ice) in the gaming area. Many
thanks.
Highlights:
Rheinlander. Defintely the hit game of the convention. Everybody
that saw it thought that it rocked. Those wonderful folks from
FunAgain Games (www.funagain.com) again sponsored the best board game
tournament of the convention and were again generous enough to not
only provide boards for the tournament but to also award a copy of the
game as the prize. Without exception it was the best prize given for
any board game event.
Got to play with the legendary Frank Branham (of "moo" fame). Ok, ok.
So, I have not been invited to a Gathering but I have also played with
Bud's basement gang in Ohio. J
Frank was actually representing Rio Grande (another highlight even
though Jay was not at DragonCon) and doing demos but by the time I got
my group to agree to try something new (other than Rheinlander), it
was late and Frank was closing down. L. I have assurances that my
group will join me at the Rio demos as soon as they start next year.
03.Card Gaming: A-
It is getting harder and harder to laugh at those MtG zombies as I
played in the B5 sealed deck tournament, learned how to play Pokemon,
bought a couple boxes of Pokemon cards, learned how to play Young
Jedi, and learned the basics of Star Wars. Yikes, I am turning into a
flopper. The B5 tourney went well (although a couple of the decks
that I saw were VERY improbable in a tightly monitored sealed deck
event-if you know what I mean). I am not exactly sure how they scored
the thing but I did not have a spectacular showing (as Humans) and did
not make the finals. Still had a blast though. Felt a bit sorry for
the judge as he had been there most of the day and it looked like he
was going to be there most of the night (the finals took a long
while). I ended up getting a pizza and sharing my pizza with him.
Precedence was missed (see Origins?). Last year they were giving away
decks and promo cards like there was no tomorrow. This year only the
winners got free stuff. Decipher was there and although they were not
giving away much of value they did have a big demo booth (which seemed
to be busy most of the time) and had one of the Star Wars actors (a
Jawa) signing cards for free. Very nice.
04.Board Gaming Demos: A+
Rio Grande deserves all the praise (and wealth) that can be given.
They are to be commended for their efforts to teach the world how to
play many of the great new German games. Where were the other
manufacturers/distributors?? Where was Prism?? Where was Fantasy
Flight Games?? Where was Mayfair?? Where was Hasbro?? See Origins??
05.RPG: ?
No experience to relate and did not hear any stories good, bad or
ugly.
06.Computer Gaming: ?
Great location. Close by the rest of gaming but we never got over
there. I was fully ready to teach one of my brothers a lesson in TA
but we just did not have enough time.
07.Facilities: A-
The layout worked well for me. Other than having to wade through a
lot (I mean a whole lot) of LARP folks to get to or from Gaming (even
just to the restrooms), we had no problem with the facility. The Food
Court close by worked out nicely for meals. The space for gaming was
a bit tight but very tolerable (tables were scarce in only one session
(Sat afternoon?)). However, when 2001 rolls around and all the gamers
are not at Origins, this space will be WAY too small. Please start
planning now (perhaps move the minis to another area entirely?). The
air conditioning was just right (and was actually chilly after
midnight). I did not notice anybody with personal hygiene issues
which was amazing given the heat outside.
08.Game Auction (non-charity): D+
They get an "A" for effort but there were only 8 items registered.
Not worth attending after a one-minute preview.
09.Dealer's Room: B
Not as cramped as last year. Range of merchandise was good (seemed to
be more weapons and horror stuff than last year) but I would have
liked to have seen more game sellers. I did not see anything in which
I was interested that I could not get from FunAgain Games or elsewhere
for less. Pokemon cards seemed expensive. I still could not tell
again this year what differentiated a dealer from an exhibitor (with
the exception of Decipher and maybe WotC). And this year dealers and
exhibitors shared the same space with no physical border (there was a
slightly humorous situation on Thursday morning related to this but it
would take too long to tell). As usual, I spent way too much on games
and am lucky that there were not more game dealers (or better deals)
as I would have spent more.
10.Consuite: B+
We stopped by the consuite several times this year and they were never
closed which is just the opposite of what happened to us last year.
Unfortunately, with the exception of once when they had twinkies and
another time when they had real-food, they never had anything more
than chips and Pepsi/M-Dew. All we really needed though was the soda
(we brought our own snacks this year) so it worked fine for us. The
space is way too small and definitely needs to have the Internet
terminals moved to another (close-by) location.
11.Pocket Program: C+
Where was the up-to-date gaming schedule?? Restaurant Guide was
great. As were maps of downtown and the facility itself.
12.Art show: B+
Good location. Good layout. Did not seem cramped. Also did not seem
to be very well attended but I only stopped by twice and may have just
hit the off times.
13.Registration: F+
Wednesday night was a nightmare again this year. They did have
helpful guides posted to direct folks to the proper line but I waited
approximately 55 minutes with only 10 people ahead of me in the
VIP/Guest/Press/Eternal member line. When I reached the front of the
line it took 72 seconds for me to get my badge. (There were no extra
goodies (not even a plastic bag) for lifetime members again this
year). My guess is that the eternal members take about a minute each
to process and the Guests, Press, and VIPs take about 8 minutes each
(with one or more radio calls to one or more honchos). After last
year, I gave up on expecting my lifetime membership to reduce my
registration wait but can we not have a separate line for Eternal
Members?? At least the registration staff knew what an Eternal Member
was this year (an improvement on last year). YMMV on this topic.
14.Elevators: ?
I did not have to take one elevator ride at the Hyatt during the whole
convention. The stairs near the consuite had a pass key lock on them
this year which could have been a problem but the volume of traffic
removed the issue.
15.B5 programming track: ?
Again this year I did not find time to get to the B5 stuff. There did
seem to be a huge presence and somebody told me that DragonCon is the
best convention in the US for getting autographs. I considered
getting some autographs from the numerous cast members since I had B5
CCG cards but was not willing to pay for a signature (unless of course
just above their autograph had been some digits and the phrase "Pay to
the Order of"). I would have paid for the actress that played the
queen in the new Star Wars movie to personalize a card for my brother
Jeff but that is a special case (and not related to B5 in any case).
Dates: F
July is too hot in Atlanta and Origins claimed the gamers on the
weekend of the 4th.
Overall: B
A very solid "B" (maybe even a "B+"). Better than last year. Some
room for improvement.
--
Mike Yearick
To reply to me directly, please replace the garbage before the @ sign with just my last name.
Tom Galloway
Mike Yearick <Please-noS...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>The executive summary is: The gamers went to Origins this year.
>I look forward to 2001 and beyond when DragonCon does not go up
>against Origins (although I may have a tough choice in 2004 when
>WorldCon in Charlotte is the week before DragonCon in Atlanta).
Um, just to make sure it's clear, it's a full two years before the site
of the 2004 Worldcon will be chosen. While I believe Charlotte is the only
currently announced bid for 2004, there's still plenty of time for another
bid to start up (particularly since the Charlotte bid has only been
publically announced in the last couple of months). So it's be no means a
certainty that Worldcon will be in Charlotte in 2004.
tyg t...@netcom.com
Irv Koch
> I look forward to 2001 and beyond when DragonCon does not go up
> against Origins (although I may have a tough choice in 2004 when
> WorldCon in Charlotte is the week before DragonCon in Atlanta).
Unless it's in Orlando, NY, Montreal, or some last minute bidder :<
.... Just because no one else has announced yet, doesn't mean there
won't be a race.
Kelly Lockhart
> although I may have a tough choice in 2004 when WorldCon in Charlotte
> is the week before DragonCon in Atlanta.
Charlotte is merely bidding for the Worldcon for 2004 - the decision on
where the 2004 Worldcon will be held won't be made until 2001 at the
Philly Worldcon.
--
Kelly Lockhart
Co-Chair, Charlotte 2004
http://www.scenic-city.com/charlotte2004
Frank Branham
> 02.Board Gaming: C-
> My friends, family, co-workers and I come to DragonCon primarily to
> play board games. Unfortunately, there were a grand total of about 10
> board game tournaments scheduled throughout the 4 days. No, that is
> not a misprint. And no, I did not intend to say 10 events per
> session. 10 events period. There was not one train game scheduled
> (and I think that my group playing Eurorails were the only folks that
> played a train game all weekend (other than maybe Union Pacific-does
> that count as an official train game??). Where were you Dave,
> Anthony, Ed?? See comment about Origins above in the executive
> summary.
>
> Highlights:
Actually, you did miss one pretty gosh darned amazing tournament on Friday
night. Henry Vogel and I managed to assemble enough Carabande equipment
for 3 full tracks (each made of a basic set and an action set). Enough for a
field of 24 players, and we had another group of folks playing at a nearby
table to make about 30 people.
Henry, of course cleaned clocks and won the tournament, and I still need to
dig up a prize for him. (See the aforementioned post for details of how maimed
the tournament registration for board games was.)
> 04.Board Gaming Demos: A+
> Rio Grande deserves all the praise (and wealth) that can be given.
> They are to be commended for their efforts to teach the world how to
> play many of the great new German games. Where were the other
> manufacturers/distributors?? Where was Prism?? Where was Fantasy
> Flight Games?? Where was Mayfair?? Where was Hasbro?? See Origins??
>
The only time I've ever seen game demos (apart from Mayfair/Rio Grande)
at DragonCon was the year it was combined with Origins. In fact, the only
boardgame companies present were the folks that either had spare staff to send
or were fairly local. Atlas' booth contained a conglomeration of products from
Fantasy Flight, Mayfair, Pagan Publishing, and Chaosium. And of course, WOTC
showed up, as they have lots of folks working for them.
Everyone else went to Origins.
Moo
Frank
Mike Yearick
>
>
>> 02.Board Gaming: C-
>> My friends, family, co-workers and I come to DragonCon primarily to
>> play board games. Unfortunately, there were a grand total of about 10
>> board game tournaments scheduled throughout the 4 days. No, that is
>> not a misprint. And no, I did not intend to say 10 events per
>> session. 10 events period. There was not one train game scheduled
>> (and I think that my group playing Eurorails were the only folks that
>> played a train game all weekend (other than maybe Union Pacific-does
>> that count as an official train game??). Where were you Dave,
>> Anthony, Ed?? See comment about Origins above in the executive
>> summary.
>
>>
>> Highlights:
>
>Actually, you did miss one pretty gosh darned amazing tournament on Friday
>night. Henry Vogel and I managed to assemble enough Carabande equipment
>for 3 full tracks (each made of a basic set and an action set). Enough for a
>field of 24 players, and we had another group of folks playing at a nearby
>table to make about 30 people.
>
>Henry, of course cleaned clocks and won the tournament, and I still need to
>dig up a prize for him. (See the aforementioned post for details of how maimed
>the tournament registration for board games was.)
>
>> 04.Board Gaming Demos: A+
>> Rio Grande deserves all the praise (and wealth) that can be given.
>> They are to be commended for their efforts to teach the world how to
>> play many of the great new German games. Where were the other
>> manufacturers/distributors?? Where was Prism?? Where was Fantasy
>> Flight Games?? Where was Mayfair?? Where was Hasbro?? See Origins??
>>
>
>The only time I've ever seen game demos (apart from Mayfair/Rio Grande)
>at DragonCon was the year it was combined with Origins. In fact, the only
>boardgame companies present were the folks that either had spare staff to send
>or were fairly local. Atlas' booth contained a conglomeration of products from
>Fantasy Flight, Mayfair, Pagan Publishing, and Chaosium. And of course, WOTC
>showed up, as they have lots of folks working for them.
While it is true that game manufacturers/distributers are scarce at
DragonCon (even when it is not up against Origins), I have seen GW
demoing Talisman, TimJim demoing Outpost (it was waaay back when), and
Artistically Inclined demoing Heroes of Asfar (they even gave a few
copies away to several lucky gamers). Still, you are right that there
are not many which always surprizes me since DragonCon has to have one
of the largest populations of gamers (translated = customers) at a con
(obviously execluding GenCon and Origins).
>
>Everyone else went to Origins.
>
>Moo
>Frank
--
Michael Liebmann
>outfit, there's a lot of DragonCon people who'd be glad to ship you the
>one we've got, if you're far enough away, and furnish cash for a one way
>ticket. <Chortle>
>
Ah, you've met her as well? Who IS that person?
Irv Koch
> <tlut...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >How does one bid for a scifi convention?
> >Is it like the Olympics, with lots of bribery and scandals?
> >(judges being sent con-babes in Wonder Woman outfits
> >and such?) :)
<snip>
> No. You spend too much of your time traveling to cons in
<slash slash snip>
> a table during the day and throwing a party at night),
> tell people about your facilities and the wonderful city
> you want us all to come visit, and feed them, ideally
> including some kind of food or drink associated with the
BBQ for Charlotte. Multiple recipes.
> But no--in this system the voters give you money, not the
> other way around. It won't cover your expenses, though.
Which defict is made up by dues and assessments among the bid
committee. However, the WINNER gets enough money from the voters to
make up some of the expenses, and if they do a good job, and there's
money left over after the con is held, they get to make up a batch more.
Vicki Rosenzweig
<tlut...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Kelly Lockhart <kellyl...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
>news:3789FE25...@sprynet.com...
>
>> Charlotte is merely bidding for the Worldcon for 2004 - the decision on
>
>How does one bid for a scifi convention?
>Is it like the Olympics, with lots of bribery and scandals?
>(judges being sent con-babes in Wonder Woman outfits
>and such?) :)
>
No. You spend too much of your time traveling to cons in
other cities (which you get to attend, in between staffing
a table during the day and throwing a party at night),
tell people about your facilities and the wonderful city
you want us all to come visit, and feed them, ideally
including some kind of food or drink associated with the
city that's bidding (San Francisco serves Ghirardelli
chocolate, for example). You sell t-shirts. You expect to
answer the same few questions over and over--no matter how
much paper you get from the city Convention and Visitors'
Bureau, some people won't read it, and there will be
questions it doesn't cover. You also expect people to wander
in, say "oooh! chocolate!" chat with their friends, and
leave without ever looking at all your nice literature.
But no--in this system the voters give you money, not the
other way around. It won't cover your expenses, though.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@interport.net
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/rassef-faq.html
"I get by with a little help from my friends." -- Lennon/McCartney
Irv Koch
> Kelly Lockhart <kellyl...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> news:3789FE25...@sprynet.com...
> > Charlotte is merely bidding for the Worldcon for 2004 - the decision on
> How does one bid for a scifi convention?
> Is it like the Olympics, with lots of bribery and scandals?
> (judges being sent con-babes in Wonder Woman outfits
> and such?) :)
Only a few sf cons are bid upon. If it's a scifi (rhymes with Skippy
Peanut Butter (TM)) then there's a good chance it's a commerical
operation or otherwise unloved by sf (esseff) fen. The ones I know of
are The WorldCon (World Science Fiction Convention), NASFIC (a special
North American con held when the WorldCon goes outside North America),
WesterCon, and DeepSouthCon (DSC).
Strict bribery is generally small as the voters are ALL the members of
the WorldCon 3 years before the one being voted on (ditto for NASFIC, 2
years for DSC, and I don't know about WesterCon. Since about 800 - 2500
vote, out of 5000 - 6000++ members, and you don't even know who they all
are, it's hard to do straight bribery.
There used to be scandals of one sort or another, but the voters and
scandal mongers got old and grey and mostly bored silly. What these
voters considered scandals weren't "normal" scandal stuff anyway, and,
over time, became "accepted practice" <shrug>. Generally they were
claims of using money to go to cons with, false info., etc. It's hard
to remember since most of that stuff made no sense anyway. Oh, I think
accusations of being too closely associated with "media fandom" was one
of them.
So, what you mostly have to do is go around to all the cons were there
are lots of potential voters and run parties. This may consist of
getting people to join and vote for the WorldCon, to start with. Booze
and attractive party persons of the opposite sex (the voters are of all
sexes) are indeed often an attraction.
Kelly Lockhart
> and feed them, ideally including some kind of food or drink
> associated with the city that's bidding (San Francisco serves
> Ghirardelli chocolate, for example).
The Charlotte group will be serving barbecue - a fine Southern food.
Of course, after two years of bidding, I may never want to see barbecue
again and become a vegetarian. (Even though we've already had a
vegetarian barbecue recipe sent to us - so maybe I'll have to give up
food altogether and stick with vitamin pills).
--
Kelly Lockhart
Charlotte 2004 Co-Chair
http://www.scenic-city.com/charlotte2004
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Tom Luthman
news:3789FE25...@sprynet.com...
> Charlotte is merely bidding for the Worldcon for 2004 - the decision on
How does one bid for a scifi convention?
Is it like the Olympics, with lots of bribery and scandals?
(judges being sent con-babes in Wonder Woman outfits
and such?) :)
************
Tom Luthman
tlut...@mindspring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~tluthman
David G. Bell
v...@interport.net "Vicki Rosenzweig" writes:
> On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 07:38:45 -0400, "Tom Luthman"
> <tlut...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >Kelly Lockhart <kellyl...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> >news:3789FE25...@sprynet.com...
> >
> >> Charlotte is merely bidding for the Worldcon for 2004 - the decision on
> >
> >How does one bid for a scifi convention?
> >Is it like the Olympics, with lots of bribery and scandals?
> >(judges being sent con-babes in Wonder Woman outfits
> >and such?) :)
> >
>
> No. You spend too much of your time traveling to cons in
> other cities (which you get to attend, in between staffing
> a table during the day and throwing a party at night),
> tell people about your facilities and the wonderful city
> you want us all to come visit, and feed them, ideally
> including some kind of food or drink associated with the
> city that's bidding (San Francisco serves Ghirardelli
> chocolate, for example). You sell t-shirts. You expect to
> answer the same few questions over and over--no matter how
> much paper you get from the city Convention and Visitors'
> Bureau, some people won't read it, and there will be
> questions it doesn't cover. You also expect people to wander
> in, say "oooh! chocolate!" chat with their friends, and
> leave without ever looking at all your nice literature.
>
> But no--in this system the voters give you money, not the
> other way around. It won't cover your expenses, though.
On the other hand, if somebody wants to give me a Worldcon supporting
membership I might be willing to pass on the con-babe in the Wonder
Woman outfit.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
P Nielsen Hayden
>(Vicki Rosenzweig) wrote:
>
>> and feed them, ideally including some kind of food or drink
>> associated with the city that's bidding (San Francisco serves
>> Ghirardelli chocolate, for example).
>
>The Charlotte group will be serving barbecue - a fine Southern food.
>
>Of course, after two years of bidding, I may never want to see barbecue
>again and become a vegetarian. (Even though we've already had a
>vegetarian barbecue recipe sent to us - so maybe I'll have to give up
>food altogether and stick with vitamin pills).
I trust that as a North Carolina group you will be serving authentic North
Carolina pulled-pork barbecue--gray, vinegary, and utterly delicious.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Marilee J. Layman
<kellyl...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>The Charlotte group will be serving barbecue - a fine Southern food.
Uhhuh. Tomato-based sauce or vinegar-based? Wet or dry? Chopped or
pulled? Pig or cow?
--
Marilee J. Layman Co-Leader, The Other*Worlds*Cafe
relm...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group
Web site: http://www.webmoose.com/owc/
AOL keyword: BOOKs > Chats & Message > SF Forum > The Other*Worlds*Cafe
mike weber
Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:43:54 -0400,
:
>As for a "con babe in a Wonder Woman (or Ms Marvel, or Danger Woman)
>outfit, there's a lot of DragonCon people who'd be glad to ship you the
>one we've got, if you're far enough away, and furnish cash for a one way
>ticket. <Chortle>
>
Not nice, if you're talking about the person i think you are. She's
weird but harmless.
Now, if you could come up with a way to send her *brother* to Mars,
i'd chip in...
--
"Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on a
Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
computer, another word processor, or another network." (Tim Berners-Lee
in -Technology Review-) ((mike weber/kras...@mindspring.com))
mike weber
on Sun, 25 Jul 99 16:51:02 GMT,
:
>> On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 07:38:45 -0400, "Tom Luthman"
>> <tlut...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Kelly Lockhart <kellyl...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
>> >news:3789FE25...@sprynet.com...
>> >
>> >> Charlotte is merely bidding for the Worldcon for 2004 - the decision on
>> >
>> >How does one bid for a scifi convention?
>> >Is it like the Olympics, with lots of bribery and scandals?
>> >(judges being sent con-babes in Wonder Woman outfits
>> >and such?) :)
>> >
>On the other hand, if somebody wants to give me a Worldcon supporting
>membership I might be willing to pass on the con-babe in the Wonder
>Woman outfit.
>
At today's rates? hold out for "Attending" at least if you don't get
the babe.
Irv Koch
> I trust that as a North Carolina group you will be serving authentic North
> Carolina pulled-pork barbecue--gray, vinegary, and utterly delicious.
THAT, along with the Western NC vs Eastern NC BBQ rivalry, is why we're
calling it BBQ WARS. (It's all good to me.)
Kelly Lockhart
> Please remember, though, that not everyone eats pork (like me) so that
> if you're going to do bbq, some of us do beef, some chicken, some
> lamb, some vegetarian, some targ, etc.
Fresh targ is always good. :-)
Seriously, we will not be using just pork at the bid parties. I
personally prefer beef and chicken over pork, so I will be one of those
"reminding" the Party Coordinators that we need to have a variety.
--
Kelly Lockhart
Chattanooga, Tennessee
http://www.scenic-city.com
Kelly Lockhart
> >BBQ for Charlotte. Multiple recipes.
>
> Will at least one of them be pulled pork?
Got a recipe? <grin>
Kelly Lockhart
> >The Charlotte group will be serving barbecue - a fine Southern food.
>
> I trust that as a North Carolina group you will be serving authentic
> North Carolina pulled-pork barbecue--gray, vinegary, and utterly
> delicious.
That will be one of the recipes used, for certain, but since this is a
regional bid with committee members from both Carolinas, Tennessee,
Georgia, Alabama, Virginia and even Texas, there will have to be a
variety of recipes.
Kelly Lockhart
> >The Charlotte group will be serving barbecue - a fine Southern food.
>
> Uhhuh. Tomato-based sauce or vinegar-based? Wet or dry? Chopped or
> pulled? Pig or cow?
Yes to all. To qoute from the Charlotte 2004 website:
As far back as history records, the South has been known for one
culinary delight above all others. No, we aren't talking about grits,
we're talking about Barbecue. The southern love affair with barbecue
goes back for generations, with family recipes being handed down from
parents to children.
Of course, there are about as many recipes for barbecue as there are
Southerners, which presented the Charlotte bid-com with a problem. You
see, we had planned to center our bid parties around a barbecue theme,
with bibs and aprons and all that sort of fun stuff. But as soon as we
agreed on having barbecue, everyone said that their own recipe was best.
Once the dust cleared and the combatants were separated, we decided
on the only course of action available - Barbecue Wars!
At each one of our bid parties, from now until the Philly Worldcon,
we will present two competing types of barbecue. It will be up to those
of you that visit the parties to decide which of the two is better.
Then, after each recipe has had a chance to be presented, we will start
the process of elimination until we have the final two recipes, which
will go head to head at our final bid party at Philly.
We will also be collecting recipes from anyone who wants to send them
to us for inclusion in a Charlotte 2004 Barbecue Cookbook, which we will
make available after the Philly Worldcon regardless of whether we win
the bid or not.
Before that time, we will post our favorite recipes here on the
website. So remember to plan ahead when attending a Charlotte 2004 room
party - bring your appetite and make sure you are ready to get your
fingers dirty, because as every Southerner knows, one cannot eat true
barbecue with a fork.
Tom Galloway
P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>I trust that as a North Carolina group you will be serving authentic North
>Carolina pulled-pork barbecue--gray, vinegary, and utterly delicious.
Gray!? Patrick, where were you eating 'cue down there so I can avoid it
at all costs?
I'll also toss in a request for some Lance salted peanuts, Nekots, and
Toast-Chees, since the Lance factory is in the Charlotte metro area.
tyg t...@netcom.com
mike weber
00:39:40 GMT,
:
>In article <8E0EA78...@news.panix.com>,
>P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>>I trust that as a North Carolina group you will be serving authentic North
>>Carolina pulled-pork barbecue--gray, vinegary, and utterly delicious.
>
>Gray!? Patrick, where were you eating 'cue down there so I can avoid it
>at all costs?
Well, if it's what i'm thinking of ((and you can get reallt good
barbecue of the same sort in Birmingham)), it's sort of a
yellowish-grey; certainly not brown or red because it contains no
tomato.
Not to say that there isn't good barbecue with tomato-bsed sauce, it's
just that the vinegar-based stuff (with more or less mustard, among
other ingredients)) can, indeed, be heavenly...
Patrick and i may disagree on some things -- not this one.
Michael Liebmann
>
>I trust that as a North Carolina group you will be serving authentic North
>Carolina pulled-pork barbecue--gray, vinegary, and utterly delicious.
Please remember, though, that not everyone eats pork (like me) so that if
you're going to do bbq, some of us do beef, some chicken, some lamb, some
vegetarian, some targ, etc.
Michael
Michael Liebmann
>Not nice, if you're talking about the person i think you are. She's
>weird but harmless.
>
train at Peachtree Center and latched on to me as if I were her beau. I
didn't want to cause a scene, but it was like, "Get AWAY from me!"
Doug Wickstrom
<irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> excited the ether to say:
>Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
>> <tlut...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >How does one bid for a scifi convention?
>> >Is it like the Olympics, with lots of bribery and scandals?
>> >(judges being sent con-babes in Wonder Woman outfits
>> >and such?) :)
>
><snip>
>> No. You spend too much of your time traveling to cons in
><slash slash snip>
>
>> a table during the day and throwing a party at night),
>> tell people about your facilities and the wonderful city
>> you want us all to come visit, and feed them, ideally
>> including some kind of food or drink associated with the
>
>BBQ for Charlotte. Multiple recipes.
Will at least one of them be pulled pork?
(Actually sometimes missing Fayetteville)
--
Doug Wickstrom
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions
and have a tremendous impact on history." --Dan Quayle
Doug Wickstrom
<xwi...@cwix.com> excited the ether to say:
So, were you actually damaged by the experience? No?
"Harmless" would appear to be a correct description, then.
Tom Galloway
mike weber <kras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>t...@netcom.com (Tom Galloway) is alleged to have said, on 26 Jul 1999
>barbecue of the same sort in Birmingham)), it's sort of a yellowish-grey;
>certainly not brown or red because it contains no tomato.
>
>Not to say that there isn't good barbecue with tomato-bsed sauce, it's
>just that the vinegar-based stuff (with more or less mustard, among
>other ingredients)) can, indeed, be heavenly...
I'll vouch for (very pale) yellowish being a reasonable description, but
there's certainly red in the vinegar based sauce varieties in terms of
flecks of the red peppers in the sauce showing up in contrast to the
white/yellowish pork. Not a red coloring so much as a red
speckling. Mustard's more of a South Carolina thing.
But I was NC born and raised for 20 years and I don't recall ever seeing
Carolina 'cue one would describe as grey.
Now, about the use of hushpuppies at bid parties and their proper cornmeal
to onion ratio...
[This is starting to remind me of my experience at a graduation party at
Harvard a friend's parents threw for her. Being from Memphis, they brought
up a mess of Memphis BBQ. I engaged in a mock debate about how this was
good, but clearly inferior to NC BBQ, with my argument only slightly weakened
by going back for thirds. On the other hand, this same person refuses to
eat BBQ above the Mason-Dixon Line or west of Texas so the thrust of my
argument was clearly acknowledged.]
tyg t...@netcom.com
Ray Radlein
>
> P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
> > I trust that as a North Carolina group you will be serving authentic
> > delicious.
>
> we're calling it BBQ WARS. (It's all good to me.)
One of my favorite useful bits of scholarship ever was the continuing
effort at the Institute for Southern Studies at the University of South
Carolina to construct a comprehensive barbecue map of the South.
- Ray R.
--
***********************************************************************
This .sig line kills fascists
Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
homepage coming soon! wooo, wooo.
***********************************************************************
David G. Bell
kras...@mindspring.com "mike weber" writes:
> db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") is alleged to have said,
> on Sun, 25 Jul 99 16:51:02 GMT,
> :
>
> >> On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 07:38:45 -0400, "Tom Luthman"
> >> <tlut...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Kelly Lockhart <kellyl...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:3789FE25...@sprynet.com...
> >> >
> >> >> Charlotte is merely bidding for the Worldcon for 2004 - the decision on
> >> >
> >> >How does one bid for a scifi convention?
> >> >Is it like the Olympics, with lots of bribery and scandals?
> >> >(judges being sent con-babes in Wonder Woman outfits
> >> >and such?) :)
> >> >
>
> >On the other hand, if somebody wants to give me a Worldcon supporting
> >membership I might be willing to pass on the con-babe in the Wonder
> >Woman outfit.
> >
> At today's rates? hold out for "Attending" at least if you don't get
> the babe.
It all depends on the babe on offer, Mike.
David Goldfarb
Tom Galloway <t...@netcom.com> wrote:
)[This is starting to remind me of my experience at a graduation party at
)Harvard a friend's parents threw for her. Being from Memphis, they brought
)up a mess of Memphis BBQ. I engaged in a mock debate about how this was
)good, but clearly inferior to NC BBQ, with my argument only slightly weakened
)by going back for thirds.
If they'd seen you eat in the past, then yes, only *very* slightly weakened.
I remember the first San Diego Comic Con I attended. It was the 25th year
of the con and they had a big chocolate cake one night.
Which was awful. Tasted like cardboard. I wouldn't have believed that
you could ruin chocolate cake that badly.
You had seconds.
Too much time spent as a grad student, I think was your excuse...?
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"My agent's negotiating for a half-hour cooking
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |program, you know..."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | "Just cooking?"
aste...@slip.net |"Cooking and anti-personnel weaponry. Tossing
|salads, tossing bodies -- it's all the same to me."
Irv Koch
> >I trust that as a North Carolina group you will be serving authentic North
> >Carolina pulled-pork barbecue--gray, vinegary, and utterly delicious.
Pork. I forget if it's the fat or lean that may be gray. Some versions
have mustard. Like I said, BBQ *WARS* ... with a gazillion recipes, all
yummy.
> I'll also toss in a request for some Lance salted peanuts, Nekots, and
> Toast-Chees, since the Lance factory is in the Charlotte metro area.
All scrumptious. Well, send the request to the Party Coordinator
(Hospitality Div Chief of the con, should we win):
jtac...@bellsouth.net (Brenda and John Tackett). Donations can be made
at the parties <G>; Full Presupports (get you an attending membership if
we win and you vote via the Philly2001 WorldCon) are $40, made out to
"Charlotte 2004" and mailed to Tom Martin, 2053 Ross Rd, Lancaster, SC
29720 (the Charlotte metro area crosses the border to SC).
Michael Brashier
my artwork. If someone had not been able to distract her and lead her away I
think that she would have become violent. To this day if I see her I head in
the other direction. Unfortunately she is attracted to people in costume. You
tend to have to go along with her delusions, or have her get upset. I have
seen her grab people and not want to let go.
Until she scared me I thought that she was funny, but harmless. Now I am not
so sure.
Michael Liebmann
<37a2d510...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
>So, were you actually damaged by the experience? No?
>
>"Harmless" would appear to be a correct description, then.
>
>--
telling people I was "her man."
Kevin J. Maroney
>I trust that as a North Carolina group you will be serving authentic North
>Carolina pulled-pork barbecue--gray, vinegary, and utterly delicious.
Is there *really* any other kind of barbecue?
Kevin Maroney | kmar...@crossover.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor
The New York Review of Science Fiction
http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html
Rachael Lininger
Kevin J. Maroney <kmar...@crossover.com> wrote:
>P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>I trust that as a North Carolina group you will be serving authentic North
>>Carolina pulled-pork barbecue--gray, vinegary, and utterly delicious.
>
>Is there *really* any other kind of barbecue?
Apparently.
I don't think I've ever had the vinegar-based barbecue. I rilly want to
try it.
Rachael, carnivore
--
Rachael Lininger | "The opposite of _less_ is _more._
lininger@ | What's better? Which one are you for?"
chem.wisc.edu | --Richard Wilbur
Laura Haywood
: > I'll also toss in a request for some Lance salted peanuts, Nekots, and
: > Toast-Chees, since the Lance factory is in the Charlotte metro area.
: All scrumptious.
And should be properly served with either RC Cola or Cheerwine. :-) And
if possible, get some Goo-Goo Clusters to go along with it.
-Laura
--
Laura Haywood | Trinoc-coN: the Triangle's
Research Triangle SF Society | speculative fiction convention
http://www.sandbaggers.com/rtsfs| Sept. 29 - Oct. 1, 2000
Next Meeting: 7/20 7:30 pm | http://www.trinoc-con.org
Monthly SF events | Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill
Doug Wickstrom
<xwi...@cwix.com> excited the ether to say:
>Doug Wickstrom wrote in message
So you didn't like it.
Were you _harmed_?
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and
reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against
which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily
in high schools." --New York Times editorial
Gordon Waters
>: > I'll also toss in a request for some Lance salted peanuts, Nekots, and
>: > Toast-Chees, since the Lance factory is in the Charlotte metro area.
>: All scrumptious.
>And should be properly served with either RC Cola or Cheerwine. :-) And
>if possible, get some Goo-Goo Clusters to go along with it.
Dang, folks, now you got me wantin' to go get breakfast from a
Biscuitville! Mmmmm!
^_^
Regards,
Gordon.
that place kicks butt!
--
GALAXY convention --------- Anime Weekend Atlanta 5- October 8-10,1999
/| || //| // /| ,, //~// //~// //~// ----- Marriott Gwinnett Hotel
//|| ||//||// //|| ./ //_// //_// //_// --- http://www.anime.net/~awa
//~~|| |/ |/ //~~|| / ,,_// ,,_// ,,_// Gordon Waters-...@crl.com
Kelly Lockhart
> : > I'll also toss in a request for some Lance salted peanuts, Nekots,
> : > and Toast-Chees, since the Lance factory is in the Charlotte metro
> : > area.
>
> : All scrumptious.
>
> And should be properly served with either RC Cola or Cheerwine. :-)
Cheerwine. I haven't even -seen- Cheerwine is years!
Gordon Waters
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:13:13 GMT, "Michael Liebmann"
><xwi...@cwix.com> excited the ether to say:
>>Doug Wickstrom wrote in message
>><37a2d510...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
>>>So, were you actually damaged by the experience? No?
>>>"Harmless" would appear to be a correct description, then.
>>Ah, Doug, I'm gay, and I didn't exactly like the idea of her coming up and
>>telling people I was "her man."
>So you didn't like it.
>Were you _harmed_?
Does having recurring, vivid, unshakable, cold-sweat nightmares, about being
chased around a hotel by someone yelling "Vrrooomm! Vroooom! Danger Girl is
going to save the day!" count?
Personally, I would say it would... the human mind is a terrible thing to
lay waste to...
Regards,
Gordon.
who has known several people with that condition, after an unfortunate
D*C encounter...
James Nicoll
Michael Brashier <mbra...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I don't know.. A couple of years ago she became upset with me about some of
>my artwork. If someone had not been able to distract her and lead her away I
>think that she would have become violent. To this day if I see her I head in
>the other direction. Unfortunately she is attracted to people in costume. You
>tend to have to go along with her delusions, or have her get upset. I have
>seen her grab people and not want to let go.
>
>Until she scared me I thought that she was funny, but harmless. Now I am not
>so sure.
As long as this all is public, who are you people talking about?
--
"I don't laugh at you when you're hurt. I laugh at
you when you've been -maimed-."
P Nielsen Hayden
>Cheerwine. I haven't even -seen- Cheerwine is years!
Of course, you can buy it across the street from Tor.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Kelly Lockhart
> >Cheerwine. I haven't even -seen- Cheerwine is years!
>
> Of course, you can buy it across the street from Tor.
Speaking as someone who can't consume sugar, and therefore am ignorant
about a lot of different foods, what exactly does Cheerwine taste like?
Kelly Lockhart
> > Speaking as someone who can't consume sugar, and therefore am
> > ignorant about a lot of different foods, what exactly does
> > Cheerwine taste like?
>
> Ummm -- they make a diet version that's available in most ot
> Tennessee, i think, but...
I don't do diet drinks. One, I hate the way they taste, and two, I have
been advised by a number of my friends in chemistry to avoid aspartame
(NutraDeath) at all costs.
I drink a lot of water. :-)
> Remember when you were a kid and your mother gave you
> artificial-cherry-flavoured cough syrup? Remember the bite it had?
>
> Cheerwine is a lot like that, with heavy carbonation.
Sounds supremely disgusting. <big grin>
> Wonderful.
Hmmm... just how often did you get "sick" as a child and beg Mom for the
cough syrup?
> Now they have an incredibly annoying would-be hip website that is *so*
> ten minutes ago,,, <insert Cordelia eye roll here> ((First word in
> the text is "Yo!"...)), also located at www.cheerwine.com.
I really hate when companies try so hard to be hip instead of hust
carving out their own unique identity. "Yo!" indeed....
Kelly Lockhart
> Heck, they even fondly believe they make edible barbecue in *Texas*,
> for gosh sake.
I had some barbecue ribs in El Paso once, back about '89, that had red
hots (the little candies) melted into the sauce. When the ribs were
smothered with the sauce, it kinda' congealed on the ribs, given them a
strange candy-like coating.
They were delicious.
Tom Galloway
David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>In article <7ngt2r$6...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>Tom Galloway <t...@netcom.com> wrote:
>)good, but clearly inferior to NC BBQ, with my argument only slightly weakened
>)by going back for thirds.
>If they'd seen you eat in the past, then yes, only *very* slightly weakened.
>I remember the first San Diego Comic Con I attended. It was the 25th year
>of the con and they had a big chocolate cake one night.
>
>Which was awful. Tasted like cardboard. I wouldn't have believed that
>you could ruin chocolate cake that badly.
>
>You had seconds.
>
>Too much time spent as a grad student, I think was your excuse...?
Probably that and likely not having eaten anything that day previous,
having had to do a Boston-San Diego flight to get out there. And I draw
the line at airplane "food". :-)
And, to defend myself, the aforementioned Harvard grad has shown great
faith in my ability to select restaurants for good food.
Still need to get around to doing that article for submission to the
Annals of Irreproducable Results on how the amount of time spent as a
grad student corrolates positively to the ability to scavenge free food.
tyg t...@netcom.com
Vicki Rosenzweig
>Doug Wickstrom wrote in message
><37a2d510...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
>>So, were you actually damaged by the experience? No?
>>
>>"Harmless" would appear to be a correct description, then.
>>
>>--
>Ah, Doug, I'm gay, and I didn't exactly like the idea of her coming up and
>telling people I was "her man."
>
Surely anyone who knew you well enough to care would believe
your denials?
Or, of course, you could say something like "I'm her man
Friday/her man in Havana/her gentleman's gentleman."
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@interport.net
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/rassef-faq.html
"I get by with a little help from my friends." -- Lennon/McCartney
Michael Liebmann
>>Ah, Doug, I'm gay, and I didn't exactly like the idea of her coming up and
>>telling people I was "her man."
>
>
>Were you _harmed_?
>
Michael Liebmann
>Surely anyone who knew you well enough to care would believe
>your denials?
>
Ray Radlein
>
> Kelly Lockhart <kellyl...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>
> >Cheerwine. I haven't even -seen- Cheerwine is years!
>
> Of course, you can buy it across the street from Tor.
The unsuspecting masses may believe that Tor's offices are on Fifth
Avenue to be close to the heart of New York's busy publishing industry,
but now we all know the *real* reason.
mike weber
05:52:27 GMT,
:
>[This is starting to remind me of my experience at a graduation party at
>Harvard a friend's parents threw for her. Being from Memphis, they brought
>up a mess of Memphis BBQ. I engaged in a mock debate about how this was
>good, but clearly inferior to NC BBQ, with my argument only slightly weakened
>by going back for thirds. On the other hand, this same person refuses to
>eat BBQ above the Mason-Dixon Line or west of Texas so the thrust of my
>argument was clearly acknowledged.]
You wanna start a Religious War Beside Which OS Wars Pale Into Mere
Insignificance?
Say that Krystal is better than White Castle north of Nashville -- or
vice-versa south thereof -- or, in either region, innocently inquire
while in a large mixed group as to which is better...
--
I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate
sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phoney
and I'd know it. -- Vivian Stanshall
========================================================================
mike weber - kras...@mindspring.com - http://weberworld.virtualave.net
mike weber
00:04:58 GMT,
:
>Still need to get around to doing that article for submission to the
>Annals of Irreproducable Results on how the amount of time spent as a
>grad student corrolates positively to the ability to scavenge free food.
>
And/or locate good reasonably-priced restaurants in strange cities.
Though i've never been a grad student, i have lived for some time at
various times under similar conditions.
I have friends who still keep an eye on me when we go to cons in
strange towns like you're supposed to watch the monkeys if lost in the
jungle -- where i eat, they figure it'll be okay and not too
expensive...
mike weber
Jul 1999 18:45:22 GMT,
:
>Irv Koch (irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com) wrote:
>
>: > I'll also toss in a request for some Lance salted peanuts, Nekots, and
>: > Toast-Chees, since the Lance factory is in the Charlotte metro area.
>
>: All scrumptious.
>
>if possible, get some Goo-Goo Clusters to go along with it.
>
It's only in the last couple years that Cheerwine has been reliably
available in the Atlanta area.
I used to stock up on a few cases whenever i passed thru NC ((much
more common in the late 80's/early 90's...))
mike weber
Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:07:40 -0400,
:
>P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
>
>> >Cheerwine. I haven't even -seen- Cheerwine is years!
>>
>> Of course, you can buy it across the street from Tor.
>
>about a lot of different foods, what exactly does Cheerwine taste like?
>
Ummm -- they make a diet version that's available in most ot
Tennessee, i think, but...
Remember when you were a kid and your mother gave you
artificial-cherry-flavoured cough syrup? Remember the bite it had?
Cheerwine is a lot like that, with heavy carbonation.
Wonderful.
I discovered it when the van broke down on the way to the '74 WorldCon
in Salisbury NC, the home of the Cheerwine company.
They used to have a slightly stodgy Web site, telling the story of the
company, etc., located at www.cheerwine.com
Now they have an incredibly annoying would-be hip website that is *so*
ten minutes ago,,, <insert Cordelia eye roll here> ((First word in
the text is "Yo!"...)), also located at www.cheerwine.com.
mike weber
Jul 1999 13:28:19 -0700,
:
>
>>: > I'll also toss in a request for some Lance salted peanuts, Nekots, and
>>: > Toast-Chees, since the Lance factory is in the Charlotte metro area.
>
>>: All scrumptious.
>
>>And should be properly served with either RC Cola or Cheerwine. :-) And
>>if possible, get some Goo-Goo Clusters to go along with it.
>
>Biscuitville! Mmmmm!
>
Right -- with Cheerwine and SunDrop in the fountain.
mike weber
Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:06:34 GMT,
>P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>I trust that as a North Carolina group you will be serving authentic North
>>Carolina pulled-pork barbecue--gray, vinegary, and utterly delicious.
>
>Is there *really* any other kind of barbecue?
>
convinced that *theirs* is best.
Heck, they even fondly believe they make edible barbecue in *Texas*,
for gosh sake. 'Course, anyone who's tried Texas "chili" knows better
than to believe *that*.
mike weber
Jul 1999 13:33:07 -0700,
:
>>>>So, were you actually damaged by the experience? No?
>
>>>>"Harmless" would appear to be a correct description, then.
>
>>>telling people I was "her man."
>
>>So you didn't like it.
>
>>Were you _harmed_?
>
>chased around a hotel by someone yelling "Vrrooomm! Vroooom! Danger Girl is
>going to save the day!" count?
>
>Personally, I would say it would... the human mind is a terrible thing to
>lay waste to...
>
the same person ((shorter than average, slightly chubby, round face,
soft brown hair generally worn failry short?)), and, seriously,
*whatever* you've experienced vis a vis *her*, her brother is *worse*.
Imagine Arnold Stang with her condition, suffering a fixed delusion
that you are the "Gamemaster" and asking you what to do next at about
110 dBA...
I have met theri mother. She seems relatively normal, if somewhat
harried ((surprise)). I hate to think what happens to them when she
dies...
Rob Wynne
:>I discovered it when the van broke down on the way to the '74 WorldCon
:>in Salisbury NC, the home of the Cheerwine company.
Dammit! The '74 Worldcon was held in Salisbury, and no one
told me? I could have made that one easily! :)
Rob
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
The best original science-fiction and fantasy on the web:
Aphelion Webzine: http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
Gafilk 2000: Jan 7-9, 2000, Atlanta, GA -- http://www.gafilk.org
"I have a very wide violence background. I'm a violence
professional, if you will." --F. Braun McAsh
Lydia Nickerson
Um, this was sexual harrassment. It's true that I don't think that sexual
harrassment by men towards women and by women towards men is entirely the
same kettle of fish, however I suspect that both are traumatizing and
upsetting. I don't think he's out of line in being upset. I intensely
dislike people whom I don't like laying hands on me. I don't mind
strangers, but I have an ex who will come up from behind, place his hands
on my hips, and nibble my neck. One of these days, I'm going to deck him.
It's behavior I would probably accept from a stranger, definitely from a
friend, but not him. From him, it's sexual harrassment. The fact that the
power imbalances aren't quite the same in mirror image doesn't make one
less bad than the other, it just means that they fit into the social
framework in different ways and may need to be fought using different
tactics.
--
----
Lydia Nickerson ly...@ddb.com
Yomama1950
::sighs heavily::
Forgive me for I have Yo!'d...........
::Karen::
(giggling manaically in Chicago)
Irv Koch
> Laura Haywood wrote:
> > : > I'll also toss in a request for some Lance salted peanuts, Nekots,
> > : > and Toast-Chees, since the Lance factory is in the Charlotte metro
> > : > area.
> > : All scrumptious.
> > And should be properly served with either RC Cola or Cheerwine. :-)
RC is a GA product although the poor company is now being bought, sold,
and resold, like a batch of pork bellies <Frown>.
Cheerwine, I forwarded to the Party Coord. It's an NC drink that Coke
spends a lot of money to contain to NC. If they cross the border, Coke
brings in more advertising to combat them then their entire yearly gross
is.
Irv Koch
> Right -- with Cheerwine and SunDrop in the fountain.
SunDrop? I remember seeing that one but don't know who makes it where.
The Cheerwine company? (And yes, someone will soon post for Big Red,
from Waco, TX, which makes really go Cream Soda.)
Irv Koch
> >Cheerwine. I haven't even -seen- Cheerwine is years!
Probably bottled by the local minions of Pepsi, which is MUCH stronger
up there than in the South. (BTW, I drink products of both companies
and then some, though I prefer Coke's, in most, but not all cases.)
Irv Koch
> And should be properly served with either RC Cola or Cheerwine. :-) And
> if possible, get some Goo-Goo Clusters to go along with it.
The Goo Goo clusters, IIRC, are from somewhere in the Nashville, TN,
area, though I could be wrong.
Laura Haywood
: I had some barbecue ribs in El Paso once, back about '89, that had red
: hots (the little candies) melted into the sauce. When the ribs were
: smothered with the sauce, it kinda' congealed on the ribs, given them a
: strange candy-like coating.
Eewwww!! Although I'm not really one to talk - one of my favorite dishes
from childhood was my mom's substitute for honey-baked ham: take a canned
ham, and pour a two-liter Pepsi over it, then heat.
--
Laura Haywood | Trinoc-coN: the Triangle's
Research Triangle SF Society | speculative fiction conference
http://www.sandbaggers.com/rtsfs | Sept. 29 - Oct. 1, 2000
Next Meeting: 7/20 7:30 pm | http://www.trinoc-con.org
Monthly SF events | Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill
Avram Grumer
Nickerson) wrote:
> ...I intensely dislike people whom I don't like laying hands on me.
> I don't mind strangers, but I have an ex who will come up from behind,
> place his hands on my hips, and nibble my neck. One of these days,
> I'm going to deck him. It's behavior I would probably accept from a
> stranger, definitely from a friend, but not him. From him, it's sexual
> harrassment....
Have you told him this?
--
Avram Grumer | Any sufficiently advanced
Home: av...@bigfoot.com | technology is indistinguishable
http://www.bigfoot.com/~avram/ | from an error message.
P Nielsen Hayden
<379DD854...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>:
Actually, where it's for sale is in the flagship store of Restoration
Hardware, at 22nd and 5th.
P Nielsen Hayden
<7nkolj$4th$1...@fddinewz.oit.unc.edu>:
>Kelly Lockhart (kellyl...@sprynet.com) wrote:
>
>: I had some barbecue ribs in El Paso once, back about '89, that had red
>: hots (the little candies) melted into the sauce. When the ribs were
>: smothered with the sauce, it kinda' congealed on the ribs, given them a
>: strange candy-like coating.
>
>Eewwww!! Although I'm not really one to talk - one of my favorite dishes
>from childhood was my mom's substitute for honey-baked ham: take a canned
>ham, and pour a two-liter Pepsi over it, then heat.
Baking ham in Coca-Cola is an old, largely Southern, American staple; it's
actually pretty good.
Doug Wickstrom
Haywood) excited the ether to say:
>Kelly Lockhart (kellyl...@sprynet.com) wrote:
>
>: I had some barbecue ribs in El Paso once, back about '89, that had red
>: hots (the little candies) melted into the sauce. When the ribs were
>: smothered with the sauce, it kinda' congealed on the ribs, given them a
>: strange candy-like coating.
>
>Eewwww!! Although I'm not really one to talk - one of my favorite dishes
>from childhood was my mom's substitute for honey-baked ham: take a canned
>ham, and pour a two-liter Pepsi over it, then heat.
That is a heretical version of a time-honored southern tradition
known as "baked ham with Coca-cola sauce." The heresy is in
using a canned ham. Pepsi is just Yankee ignorance, I'm told.
--
Doug Wickstrom
Fandom is the focus. Science Fiction is the filter.
Gordon Waters
mike weber <kras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>gwa...@crl3.crl.com (Gordon Waters) is alleged to have said, on 26
>>In article <7niac2$s26$1...@fddinewz.oit.unc.edu>,
>>Laura Haywood <lgha...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>>>: > I'll also toss in a request for some Lance salted peanuts, Nekots, and
>>>: > Toast-Chees, since the Lance factory is in the Charlotte metro area.
>>>: All scrumptious.
>>>And should be properly served with either RC Cola or Cheerwine. :-) And
>>>if possible, get some Goo-Goo Clusters to go along with it.
>>Dang, folks, now you got me wantin' to go get breakfast from a
>>Biscuitville! Mmmmm!
>Right -- with Cheerwine and SunDrop in the fountain.
... and then go get some Moon Pies, for a after-dinner snack...
^_-
Regards,
Gordon.
made in Tennessee, IIRC...
--
GALAXY convention --------- Anime Weekend Atlanta 5- October 8-10,1999
/| || //| // /| ,, //~// //~// //~// ----- Marriott Gwinnett Hotel
//|| ||//||// //|| ./ //_// //_// //_// --- http://www.anime.net/~awa
//~~|| |/ |/ //~~|| / ,,_// ,,_// ,,_// Gordon Waters-...@crl.com
Laura Haywood
: Baking ham in Coca-Cola is an old, largely Southern, American staple; it's
: actually pretty good.
I remember liking it when I was a kid; my mom hasn't made it in ages,
though. Maybe I'll ask her to do it at Thanksgiving since my grandfather
doesn't like turkey anyway.
Laura Haywood
: That is a heretical version of a time-honored southern tradition
: known as "baked ham with Coca-cola sauce." The heresy is in
: using a canned ham. Pepsi is just Yankee ignorance, I'm told.
No "Yankee ignorance" here; I'm nth generation North Carolinian. :-)
The particular combination of Pepsi/canned ham was probably a result of
whatever was on special at the grocery store; my folks didn't have a lot
of money when I was growing up.
--
Laura Haywood | Trinoc-coN: the Triangle's
Research Triangle SF Society | speculative fiction conference
http://www.sandbaggers.com/rtsfs | Sept. 29 - Oct. 1, 2000
Next Meeting: 8/17 7:30 pm | http://www.trinoc-con.org
Tom Galloway
Laura Haywood <lgha...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>No "Yankee ignorance" here; I'm nth generation North Carolinian. :-)
>The particular combination of Pepsi/canned ham was probably a result of
>whatever was on special at the grocery store; my folks didn't have a lot
>of money when I was growing up.
I'm impressed; she found a source of Pepsi cheaper than a store brand cola,
such as Chek?
tyg t...@netcom.com
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>Does having recurring, vivid, unshakable, cold-sweat nightmares, about being
>chased around a hotel by someone yelling "Vrrooomm! Vroooom! Danger Girl is
>going to save the day!" count?
If "danger girl" does this repeatedly, irritating many guests, why
does D*C let her come back? Surely if someone in charge told her she
had to tone it down or they'd keep her out, she'd have to control
herself or do without.
--
Marilee J. Layman Co-Leader, The Other*Worlds*Cafe
relm...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group
Web site: http://www.webmoose.com/owc/
AOL keyword: BOOKs > Chats & Message > SF Forum > The Other*Worlds*Cafe
Kelly Lockhart
> I'm impressed; she found a source of Pepsi cheaper than a store brand
> cola, such as Chek?
Growing up, I subsisted on Kroger brand "Big K" soft drinks. Mainly
Root Beer, Orange and Grape Soda. They were something like 49 cents a
2-liter bottle, so Mom could stock up and keep me on an adolescent sugar
high for a lot less money.
--
Kelly Lockhart
Chattanooga, Tennessee
http://www.scenic-city.com
Loren MacGregor
>
> Indeed, Arthur, Kevin, Teresa, and I could, as we have recently discussed,
> practically converse by sticking our respective heads out our windows and
> shouting. Tin cans on strings would _definitely_ work.
Oh, please try it, take pictures, and report back here. Better yet,
send the written reportto Vicki or Ulrika or Geri for a fanzine.
-- LJM
Gordon Waters
Marilee J. Layman <mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>In <7nigm3$9...@crl3.crl.com>, gwa...@crl3.crl.com (Gordon Waters)
>wrote:
>>Does having recurring, vivid, unshakable, cold-sweat nightmares, about being
>>chased around a hotel by someone yelling "Vrrooomm! Vroooom! Danger Girl is
>>going to save the day!" count?
>If "danger girl" does this repeatedly, irritating many guests, why
>does D*C let her come back? Surely if someone in charge told her she
>had to tone it down or they'd keep her out, she'd have to control
>herself or do without.
I can tell you one reason that's been repeatedly speculated as to why
nothing's ever been done: can you say "Americans with Disabilities Act
lawsuit"? Whether or not that would actually happen, I've heard it
pondered about by a number of D*C staffers, over the years...
Regards,
Gordon.
Kelly Lockhart
> > Does having recurring, vivid, unshakable, cold-sweat nightmares,
> > about being chased around a hotel by someone yelling "Vrrooomm!
> > Vroooom! Danger Girl is going to save the day!" count?
>
> If "danger girl" does this repeatedly, irritating many guests, why
> does D*C let her come back? Surely if someone in charge told her she
> had to tone it down or they'd keep her out, she'd have to control
> herself or do without.
She is on the Handicapped Access staff, and has been since DragonCon
started.
Arthur Hlavaty
: P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
:>
:>
:> >Cheerwine. I haven't even -seen- Cheerwine is years!
:>
:> Of course, you can buy it across the street from Tor.
: The unsuspecting masses may believe that Tor's offices are on Fifth
: Avenue to be close to the heart of New York's busy publishing industry,
: but now we all know the *real* reason.
That neighborhood is surprisingly fannish.
--
Arthur D. Hlavaty hla...@panix.com
Church of the SuperGenius In Wile E. We Trust
\\\ E-zine available on request. ///
P Nielsen Hayden
>In rec.arts.sf.fandom Ray Radlein <r...@learnlink.emory.edu> wrote:
>: P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
>:>
>:> Kelly Lockhart <kellyl...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>:>
>:> >Cheerwine. I haven't even -seen- Cheerwine is years!
>:>
>:> Of course, you can buy it across the street from Tor.
>
>: The unsuspecting masses may believe that Tor's offices are on Fifth
>: Avenue to be close to the heart of New York's busy publishing industry,
>: but now we all know the *real* reason.
>
>That neighborhood is surprisingly fannish.
Indeed, Arthur, Kevin, Teresa, and I could, as we have recently discussed,
practically converse by sticking our respective heads out our windows and
shouting. Tin cans on strings would _definitely_ work.
Michael Liebmann
>It's only in the last couple years that Cheerwine has been reliably
>available in the Atlanta area.
>
Ah, what's Cheerwine?
Michael (who's confused)
Ray Radlein
>
> mike weber wrote:
> > Right -- with Cheerwine and SunDrop in the fountain.
>
> where. The Cheerwine company? (And yes, someone will soon post for
> Big Red, from Waco, TX, which makes really go Cream Soda.)
How about Blenheim's Ginger Ale?
- Ray R.
--
***********************************************************************
This .sig line kills fascists
Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
homepage coming soon! wooo, wooo.
***********************************************************************
Chris Croughton
>Indeed, Arthur, Kevin, Teresa, and I could, as we have recently discussed,
>practically converse by sticking our respective heads out our windows and
>shouting. Tin cans on strings would _definitely_ work.
And be more reliable than the telephone system? (I've worked in places
where that would definitely be true, and from what comp.risks has been
saying recently I'm thinking of installing a tin can and string system
for emergencies...)
Chris C
mike weber
1999 13:20:41 GMT,
:
>In alt.fandom.cons mike weber <kras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>:>I discovered it when the van broke down on the way to the '74 WorldCon
>:>in Salisbury NC, the home of the Cheerwine company.
>
>Dammit! The '74 Worldcon was held in Salisbury, and no one
>told me? I could have made that one easily! :)
>
This is me ignoring this bit of impertinence. See? It is so far
beneath my dignity that i do not even notice that it is here...
--
"There was something universal about the sinister light in the
eye of a mother with a long list of chores in her hand." (Lois
McMaster Bujold, -Memory-)
<mike weber> <kras...@mindspring.com>
Ambitious Incomplete web site: http://weberworld.virtualave.net
mike weber
Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:57:33 -0400,
:
>Kelly Lockhart wrote:
>> Laura Haywood wrote:
>> > : > I'll also toss in a request for some Lance salted peanuts, Nekots,
>> > : > and Toast-Chees, since the Lance factory is in the Charlotte metro
>> > : > area.
>> > : All scrumptious.
>> > And should be properly served with either RC Cola or Cheerwine. :-)
>
>and resold, like a batch of pork bellies <Frown>.
>
>Cheerwine, I forwarded to the Party Coord. It's an NC drink that Coke
>spends a lot of money to contain to NC. If they cross the border, Coke
>brings in more advertising to combat them then their entire yearly gross
>is.
>
Atlanta.
mike weber
Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:06:34 GMT,
>>I trust that as a North Carolina group you will be serving authentic North
>>Carolina pulled-pork barbecue--gray, vinegary, and utterly delicious.
>
>Is there *really* any other kind of barbecue?
>
One of these days i will have to transcribe Mojo Nixon's "BBQ" or
whatever it's called -- just a long recitation of his favourite BBQ
joints throughout the South with a hymn-like backing instrumental. He
lists them by name and town,. as i recall -- might come in handy if i
ever get another job involving time on the road...
((I remember one week in Birmingham on my last road job when i think i
ate about seven completely different barbecue types -- all
delicious.))
mike weber
Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:26:03 GMT,
>
>>Does having recurring, vivid, unshakable, cold-sweat nightmares, about being
>>chased around a hotel by someone yelling "Vrrooomm! Vroooom! Danger Girl is
>>going to save the day!" count?
>
>If "danger girl" does this repeatedly, irritating many guests, why
>does D*C let her come back? Surely if someone in charge told her she
>had to tone it down or they'd keep her out, she'd have to control
>herself or do without.
>
the same reality that we do.
mike weber
Jul 1999 13:47:34 -0400,
:
>In article <lydy.93...@gw.dd-b.net>, ly...@gw.dd-b.net (Lydia
>Nickerson) wrote:
>
>> ...I intensely dislike people whom I don't like laying hands on me.
>> I don't mind strangers, but I have an ex who will come up from behind,
>> place his hands on my hips, and nibble my neck. One of these days,
>> I'm going to deck him. It's behavior I would probably accept from a
>> stranger, definitely from a friend, but not him. From him, it's sexual
>> harrassment....
>
>Have you told him this?
>
face as he goes down.
If it's *really* good, she may put the boot in, too...
mike weber
Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:09:19 -0400,
>mike weber wrote:
>> Right -- with Cheerwine and SunDrop in the fountain.
>
>SunDrop? I remember seeing that one but don't know who makes it where.
>The Cheerwine company? (And yes, someone will soon post for Big Red,
>from Waco, TX, which makes really go Cream Soda.)
>
see them in coolers,,,
mike weber
28 Jul 1999 04:44:55 GMT,
:
>mike weber wrote in message <379d70c2...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>It's only in the last couple years that Cheerwine has been reliably
>>available in the Atlanta area.
>>
>Ah, what's Cheerwine?
>
Nor for the weak, but slightly less scarifying of the throat than Old
Tyme Jamaican-stylr Ginger Beer...
John C. Watson
----------
In article <379DD758...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>, Irv Koch
<irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> wrote:
>Laura Haywood wrote:
>> And should be properly served with either RC Cola or Cheerwine. :-)
>> And if possible, get some Goo-Goo Clusters to go along with it.
>
>The Goo Goo clusters, IIRC, are from somewhere in the Nashville, TN,
>area, though I could be wrong.
>
A brief search on Dogpile revealed:
Yup, Nashville. I recall my stepfather bringing one home after
attending the Grand Ole Opry while on a business trip around 1980.
Ciao,
John
John C. Watson
World Otakunization Project, Amherst Division
Laura Haywood
: How about Blenheim's Ginger Ale?
Good ol' South Carolina Blenheim's...the red-top version will burn your
tastebuds off. :-) The yellow tops are more mild, and there's even a
*shudder* diet version. They're great to drink when you have a cold and
need to decongest.
--
Laura Haywood | Trinoc-coN: the Triangle's
Research Triangle SF Society | speculative fiction conference
http://www.sandbaggers.com/rtsfs | Sept. 29 - Oct. 1, 2000
Next Meeting: 7/20 7:30 pm | http://www.trinoc-con.org
John C. Watson
----------
In article <379E95...@learnlink.emory.edu>, Ray Radlein
<r...@learnlink.emory.edu> wrote:
>Irv Koch wrote:
>>
>> mike weber wrote:
>> > Right -- with Cheerwine and SunDrop in the fountain.
>>
>> SunDrop? I remember seeing that one but don't know who makes it
>> where. The Cheerwine company? (And yes, someone will soon post for
>> Big Red, from Waco, TX, which makes really go Cream Soda.)
>
>How about Blenheim's Ginger Ale?
>
>
>
> - Ray R.
>
>
Okay, okay, I admit it--this damyankee just can't resist a trivia(l)
challenge.
Sun-drop: http://www.sundrop.net/history.htm , now made by Cadbury.
Blenheim Ginger Ale: http://www.serve.com/brenta/blenheim/ , one plant
being in Hamer, SC. It's now owned by the same people as the "South of
the Border" tourist trap.
John Lorentz
<kellyl...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>Tom Galloway wrote:
>
>> I'm impressed; she found a source of Pepsi cheaper than a store brand
>> cola, such as Chek?
>
>Growing up, I subsisted on Kroger brand "Big K" soft drinks. Mainly
>Root Beer, Orange and Grape Soda. They were something like 49 cents a
>2-liter bottle, so Mom could stock up and keep me on an adolescent sugar
>high for a lot less money.
>
*Sigh*
Makes me feel old--two-liter bottles didn't even _exist_ until I was
an adult...
--John
James Nicoll
>practically converse by sticking our respective heads out our windows and
>shouting. Tin cans on strings would _definitely_ work.
Shades of the Futurians.
--
"I don't laugh at you when you're hurt. I laugh at
you when you've been -maimed-."
Sharon L Sbarsky
Ray Radlein <rayra...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Irv Koch wrote:
>>
>> mike weber wrote:
>> > Right -- with Cheerwine and SunDrop in the fountain.
>>
>> SunDrop? I remember seeing that one but don't know who makes it
>> where. The Cheerwine company? (And yes, someone will soon post for
>> Big Red, from Waco, TX, which makes really go Cream Soda.)
>
>How about Blenheim's Ginger Ale?
>
Sharon
Michael Liebmann
>>Ah, what's Cheerwine?
>>
>Very strong artificially-flavoured cherry soda.
>
Chris Croughton
> Makes me feel old--two-liter bottles didn't even _exist_ until I was
>an adult...
Nor me; we had a flurry of "going metric" in the late 60s in Britain but
as I recall the drinks didn't change until a lot later. The sort of
things which changed to metric in the 60s were the silly ones:
Wood, 2 metres of two-by-four (inches);
Lighting flex - couldn't buy it by the yard, had to be metres but the
price was in pence per foot;
Fabric, sold by the centimetre but 48" or 60" wide;
and so on. (The last I remember well, an elderly lady coming back from
the shops where she wanted some curtain fabric and complaining: "They
said they wanted centipedes! I told 'em I wasn't having centipedes on
my curtains!")
I still find it amusing the number of things which are sold as 'metric'
but are just conversions - 12.7mm (1/2") tape, 6.35mm (1/4") jack plugs,
equipment '1U' high (1U is 1.75", for some unknown reason, but it's even
sillier in mm).
Chris C