Mercedes Lackey - "The Dragoncon Report"

[Matt Roberds]

Hello!

I posted this to alt.books.m-lackey a few days ago for Mercedes Lackey.
Since there has been some discussion here about her participation in
Dragon*Con, I thought it would be appropriate to post it here. See
the first paragraph of the following for how to contact us via snail
mail.

Thanks!

In article <5pif9r$4...@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net>, mrob...@worldnet.att.net
blathered on about...
>
>Hello again!
>
>The following was written by Mercedes Lackey. I am posting it for her
>because she does not have direct Internet access. Yes, I am the same
>person who posted "The Last Straw" for her, and also the same person who
>posted the "Events at Dragoncon from a primary source" post written by
>Pony White, a member of the team here at High Flight. Some of you may
>have seen me at DragonCon, as I was often with Pony, Mercedes, Larry,
>and their professional bodyguards, or Mark Shepherd. If you have
>questions about this post you can get in touch with Mercedes or Larry
>Dixon via snail mail at:
>
>PO Box 8309
>Tulsa, OK 74101 USA
>
>Thank you.
>
>End of message from Matt Roberds
>Start of report from Mercedes Lackey
>
>THE DRAGONCON REPORT
>Mercedes Lackey
>
>As some of you may know, Larry and I have been the subjects of---well,
>there's no better way to put this---a death threat.
>
>This has been ongoing from January, when we first learned of this and
>the stated target date of this threat corresponded very closely with the
>date of DragonCon, which we were scheduled to attend. When the threat
>became even more serious, I tried to cancel our appearance at that time,
>and later attempted to do so again, but was talked out of canceling
>both times.
>
>At the time we scheduled our appearance at the extreme urging of Ed
>Kramer, we were promised the following: first class air (my back can't
>take coach seats anymore), a room for Larry and myself, a second room
>(adjoining and with a connecting door) for our own nonprofessional
>bodyguard and Mark Shepherd to share---the rooms to be on a limited-access
>floor, and a speaking fee to cover the expenses of a bird-sitter and
>the airfare and meals of the bodyguard. This was witnessed by Marilyn
>Morey, head of the Queen's Own track, and later verified in writing from
>Ed Kramer.
>
>At the time I attempted to cancel, I was assured that not only would all
>these things be taken care of, but that we would always be traveling by
>service passages and freight elevators between panels and would not have
>to walk out in the open on the street, and that further, a professional
>protection service would be hired for us. Ed Kramer was also putting a
>great deal of pressure on Marilyn Morey (at a time when her mother was
>dying in intensive care) to get us to agree not to cancel. Both because
>of those assurances and to relieve Marilyn of this pressure, I agreed.
>I was assured that the room arrangements would definitely be as promised,
>two adjoining rooms sharing a door on a limited access floor.
>
>When we arrived at DragonCon on Wednesday night, with Mark, Pony White
>our own guard, and Matt Roberds our gopher, we discovered we had been
>assigned to two rooms separated by a third room, on a completely open
>floor at the Westin. Further, the service elevator opened directly across
>from our room. If anyone wanted to sneak in via the service elevator
>and get into the room, he could do so virtually without being seen by
>anyone, and get away without being caught! We didn't appreciate this,
>but Ed Kramer was not available, so we decided to make do until Thursday.
>
>On Thursday, the professional bodyguard met with us and just about had
>a litter of kittens when he saw the room arrangement. We had a panel
>to attend---and had to walk openly through the city streets to get to it,
>another touch the professional was not pleased with. Once at the Inforum,
>we had to parade openly through that building rather than taking service
>corridors as had been promised, and he was even more annoyed. He set
>us up at our panel, while Ops was informed that the room arrangement was
>unacceptable from a security standpoint. Meanwhile, the pro ordered us to
>send Matt Roberds out on any errands we had---we were NOT to go parading
>out through the convention except when we had to go to panels, arrive,
>or leave. We were also not to linger after any panels to talk to people
>or sign things, as this would make a good place for someone to target us.
>
>The panel ended at 2, and we went to Ops to see if anything had been done.
>Nothing had been. The professional explained why this was unacceptable
>about a dozen times. A staff member attempted to fix things, and at
>around 4 pm finally came up with a solution---or so she said. We were to
>check out of our rooms at the Westin immediately, take our things to the
>Hyatt, and there would be someone waiting to check us into exactly the
>kind of rooms we were promised. Larry and I both had panels, so Mark
>Shepherd and Matt Roberds agreed to run back to the Westin, check out
>all of us and get things taken care of. We went to our panels. We came
>back to Ops after our panels to discover that when Mark had gone to the
>Hyatt, no one there knew what he was talking about. Now not only did
>we not have the rooms we had been promised, we didn't have ANY rooms.
>The professional guard nearly had cardiac arrest.
>
>We then went through three hours of nightmare, as he explained the kind
>of setup we HAD TO HAVE for the sake of safety, and the staff tried
>to arrange it, only to be thwarted time after time because Ed Kramer
>wasn't around to approve it. Now, we had all been in body armor since 10
>that morning; we were tired, overheated, and had nowhere to go to even
>take the stuff off, and our last meal had been at 11 am. By seven we
>were miserable. Wearing body-armor is a lot like wearing six girdles,
>a corset, and some football plates; it pinches and bruises, even if it is
>perfectly fitted, and it is horribly hot. That's the state we were in,
>as the clock headed towards 8 pm and our last event of Thursday.
>
>The professional came up (after fifteen minutes of checking his sources)
>with exactly what we needed at the Four Seasons---but Ed Kramer wouldn't
>approve it. We were finally offered the following at the Hyatt: either
>two rooms on separate unsecured floors, or a "suite" of two rooms with
>a single pull-down Murphy bed with no rollaways available. I don't
>know where they expected Pony, Mark and Matt to sleep, but WE certainly
>weren't going to make them sleep on the floor. At this point Larry took
>the phone and told Ed Kramer that his so-called offer was far too little,
>too late; that he was in breach of contract, and that we were no longer
>affiliated with DragonCon. We turned in all DragonCon materials and
>went to our last Queen's Own function of the day.
>
>Following this, we spent five minutes on the phone and got exactly
>what we needed---but out of our own pockets, which we frankly couldn't
>really afford. We've had devastating losses from a fire that destroyed
>Larry's studio, and our spare money goes into bird-rehab and supporting
>an underfunded volunteer fire department. We moved into our new
>arrangements, and returned for the QO midnight reading.
>
>From then on, we attended QO functions only----functions coordinated
>and arranged by Marilyn Morey, who made everything run with perfect
>smoothness. These functions were open to all members of DragonCon, but
>QO attendees were given preference when---as happened at every one of our
>panels----there were too many people for the room. The only functions
>restricted were the midnight readings----they were restricted to 25
>people, chosen by random drawing, because that was all the room would
>hold---and the dinner, which had been by reservation only. Everything
>else was always open to non-QO attendees.
>
>The professional bodyguards were wonderful, cool and resourceful and a
>lot of fun to be around. They gave us the accolade of telling us that
>we were a couple of their best clients, since we always did what they
>told us to without an argument. Poor Matt deserves another accolade,
>as he ran back and forth with drinks, food, and packages all three
>remaining days without a complaint. Pony also deserves high points,
>fitting seamlessly in with the professionals. The additional security
>provided by the QO volunteers (we never saw a a single moment of coverage
>from DragonCon security personel) is also greatly appreciated.
>
>Everything went smoothly until the last signing on Saturday night.
>We had just about finished the signing when we had---as the pros so
>gracefully put it---an "incident." A half-dozen suspicious characters had
>been in and out of the room during the signing----watching the security,
>and NOT waiting to get anything signed. As the last couple of people
>got autographs, a couple QO staff were breaking things down, and with
>no one anywhere near the light switches---the lights suddenly went out
>in the room. It was a very tense moment until the QO staff got the
>lights back on, most of which, for Larry and me, was spent under a pile
>of sheltering bodies! Once the lights were on, the pros were taking no
>chances, they hustled us out and to a safe room. We still do not know
>who caused the lights to go out, or why they did so.
>
>After we relaxed a little, the two pros, Larry, Pony, a QO volunteer,
>and myself all went to a sports-bar to watch the Tyson fight---and I
>finally got the pros to EAT something! They'd spent most of the day
>being so "on the job" that I don't think they'd gotten more than a bite
>or two between them, even in restaurants. At last (after three days
>in body-armor and one near-cardiac-arrest) we finished all the panels
>on Sunday and took the pros off for a pizza-party with the QO staff.
>Everybody thought the pros were great, and they had a fabulous time.
>Both of them came with us as far as our hotel; the first went on home,
>while the second accompanied us all the way to the jetway to the plane
>at the airport. He, I am told, returned to the party for a last couple
>of slices of pizza and a very-well-earned drink.
>
>But it seems that our drama wasn't over yet, because as Pony left the
>party at about 12:30 pm, he was approached in the Hyatt lobby by two
>men dressed in black convention-costumes. One asked if he was "Pony",
>and when he acknowledged that he was, the second man grabbed and held him
>while the first took a walking-stick and tried to beat him up with it.
>This was, by the way, in full sight of several witnesses. Fortunately,
>Pony was still in his body-armor, and he is highly skilled at martial
>arts. He only took one blow before getting free and damaging both
>of his attackers; the man who was holding him fled, but he managed to
>down the one with the stick and handcuffed him to the railing until the
>police came. His attacker was taken to jail---this is also a matter of
>public record that can be verified---on assualt charges.
>
>Pony got two cracked ribs, a bruised area about the size of a basketball,
>but no further damage as the body-armor absorbed most of the blow.
>We have no further information about his assailant at this time, but
>it would certainly appear that Pony took the hit that was meant for us,
>which only the presence of Pony, two professionals and several volunteers
>saved us from. So much for our being paranoid, and I think we were
>very lucky to have been in the hands of real pros instead of DragonCon.
>If it had been left up to Ed Kramer and DragonCon, odds are we'd have
>been hurt or dead before Sunday.
>
>

[Ed Dravecky III]

A couple of odd notes in this report from Mercedes Lackey.
And while I was not at D*C a few things struck me thusly...

Oh, btw, I've snipped her post to ribbons to save space but
the original should still be on your newsspool to get the full
story. Again, I have no connection with any con east of the
Mississippi.

<Ms. Lackey lists the things she was promised by Ed Kramer>

> > and a speaking fee to cover the expenses of a bird-sitter and
> > the airfare and meals of the bodyguard.

But... but... I thought D*C didn't *pay* fees to any of the
guests at the convention? And on the other side of this, I
can appreciate the need for first class airfares and "secure"
hotel rooms but how on earth can a con be responsible for
paying a "bird-sitter"? Or even for a "non-professional
bodyguard" when the con is also going to the expense of hiring
PROFESSIONAL bodyguards?

> > Ed Kramer was also putting a great deal of pressure on Marilyn
> > Morey (at a time when her mother was dying in intensive care)
> > to get us to agree not to cancel.

This sounds like Lackey is accusing Kramer of using Morey's
mental state against her. This would not only require Kramer
to be a heartless bastard (which he, in my experience, is not)
and for him to know (somehow) the medical condition of Morey's
mother. It sounds like Lackey is using this cheap shot at
Kramer to gain sympathy for her position even though Lackey
was the one (as she states) trying to get out of her previous
commitment. Very odd.

> > Further, the service elevator opened directly across from our
> > room. If anyone wanted to sneak in via the service elevator and
> > get into the room, he could do so virtually without being seen by
> > anyone, and get away without being caught!

Again, I'm not with Dragon*Con and wasn't in Atlanta (or the
Eastern time zone, for that matter) that weekend, but my GUESS
(and please note the very speculative nature of this guess)
would be that whoever arranged the room was thinking, "We need
to keep Lackey out of the public elevators and main hallways,
as per her request. Hey! Let's get the room *closest* to the
elevator she'll be using so we can keep her out of the hallway
as much as possible."

The adjoining room thing is a problem, of course, and D*C does
deserve a slap across the knuckles for that one...

> > We had a panel to attend---and had to walk openly through the
> > city streets to get to it, another touch the professional was not
> > pleased with.

I am shocked--shocked--to read that there are no taxis to be
hired in the entire Atlanta area! And to read that the
Inforum is not a hotel! And that Lackey used the word
"parade" twice in this paragraph in reference to her walking
amongst the members of the convention!

> > We were also not to linger after any panels to talk to people
> > or sign things, as this would make a good place for someone to
> > target us.

Gee, sounds like a lot of fun for the Lackey fans.

<I've snipped a long note about the many ways in which D*C
screwed up the hotel arrangements. These sound like big
problems and D*C should again hold out its collective tender
knuckles for more slapping with this St. Anne's Catholic
School commemorative ruler. But I can also imagine that
getting adjoining rooms on a "secure" floor in the MIDDLE of
an 18,000 person convention could be...problematic at best.>

> > The only functions restricted were the midnight
> > readings----they were restricted to 25 people, chosen by random
> > drawing, because that was all the room would hold---and the dinner,
> > which had been by reservation only. Everything else was always
> > open to non-QO attendees.

Did I read this paragraph correctly? There was a reading by
an author popular enough to induce D*C to fly her and several
companions across the country, put her up in a hotel room, and
pay a "speaking fee" AND hire professional bodyguards...and it
was put in a room that can hold 25 people? The hell?!? I'm
trying to imagine a function space SMALL enough to hold only
25 fans. What would you use that for the rest of the day,
panels on "Why I Loved 'Earth 2'?" or "Douglas Adams' 'Mostly
Harmless': The Best of the Hitchhiker Books"? My mind is
currently boggled.

> > The additional security provided by the QO volunteers (we never
> > saw a a single moment of coverage from DragonCon security personel)
> > is also greatly appreciated.

Not to reignite THAT debate, but Lackey appears to misunderstand
the function of Con Security...and neglects that she already had
multiple paid professionals surrounding her at D*C expense.

> > After we relaxed a little, the two pros, Larry, Pony, a QO volunteer,
> > and myself all went to a sports-bar to watch the Tyson fight---and I
> > finally got the pros to EAT something!

Pretend you're a famous person. You're worried about security
and (gasp!) walking a block or three of the streets of Atlanta
while surrounded by security. You feel hungry so you...leave
the convention center! go to a public bar! with a fight on the
tube! and distract your bodyguards! Nifty.

> > But it seems that our drama wasn't over yet, because as Pony
> > left the party at about 12:30 pm, he was approached in the
> > Hyatt lobby by two men dressed in black convention-costumes.

It looks like "drama" is the correct word here. And I know
that Southern fandom is supposedly different from other areas,
but when were we assigned official "convention-costumes"? And
with the nature of the injuries to Pony, is this a case for
real names on badges? (Oh, great, not THAT debate, too!)

> > If it had been left up to Ed Kramer and DragonCon, odds are
> > we'd have been hurt or dead before Sunday.

Am I missing something in this very "dramatic" accounting?
D*C hired bodyguards, made very special accomodations for
Lackey, screwed up the hotel thing a bit but changing hotels
in the middle of an 18,000 person con seems to invite screwing
things up, and got her safely to the jet without incident. It
sounds like everything was okay until Pony (who is not Lackey
but probably should have been on the plane with her if he was
in fact her "non-professional" bodyguard) got attacked.

Lackey was not hurt. Lackey is not dead. Lackey is pissed at Ed
Kramer for a variety of reasons both fair and unfair. Maybe now
would be a good time for Roland to invite her to MOC? :>

I'd be interested to hear from anybody with more information
on this topic.
--
Ed Dravecky III =<*>= This message was part of a complex plot
dshe...@netcom.com = to take over the world. (B5 S5 TNT WH!)

[Bill Steinen]

sav...@worldnet.att.net (Scott Schuler) wrote:

>The fact that Merecdes Lackey and Larry Dixon stayed, so as not to
>disappoint her fans says a lot about their character. I for one, made
>Dragoncon my first con in 22 years because of them.

I can agree with this; I managed to catch one of her panels and
thoroughly enjoyed it. As far as I can tell this whole situation
boils down to two things:

1) If the reports of misunderstandings and whatnot with the DragonCon
staff are true they need to take a serious look at whatever procedures
they have regarding guests with security needs/problems and revise
them before next year.

2) If Ms. Lackey is really in danger (and I have no reason to believe
she isn't, unfortunately) she should probably curtail her convention
appearances until the situation is resolved or cools down a good bit.
It was nice of her to come out and take part in the convention, but
she won't be doing her fans, herself, or the conventions a favor if
she gets injured. At least not unless she does the next durn Serrated
Edge book first... :) Seriously, I'd hate to see her putting herself
in danger just for something like a con. I'd hate to see her have to
pull a Salmon Rushidie, though. What a lousy situation.

Bill

---------------------------------------------------------
"You may be immortal, but I can still do damage.
How would you like to spend eternity in five pieces?"
--Xena, Warrior Princess
---------------------------------------------------------

[Bill Steinen]

gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:

>In <33c4f43a...@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Scott Schuler
><sav...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>[. . .]
>: Speculate
>: all you want, the threat to Mercedes Lackey, and the High Flight team
>: is very real.

>For those of us who don't follow her life with great attention, could you
>or anyone else provide some more information about this, please?

Her statement about this situation among others is on the web at
http://www.usa.net/firebird/mlstraw.htm . I have no idea if anyone
else has made or posted any responses to it.

[John Tackett]

Just a note on the "MERCEDES LACKEY REPORT"

As for trying to provide proper security, Ms. Lackey failed to note that
my driver/staff, sent to pick up Ms. Lackey and Mr. Dixon, was met at
the arrival gate by her security people. Knowing that there had been
threats, he refused to leave until Ms. Lackey herself gave the OK.
Notice how this incident was not mentioned in her report. We were aware
of her problems in transportation and did our best to accomodate them.
She never mentioned to anyone on the DC VIP staff that she would like to
have a vehicle move here from the hotel to the convention center.Had she
done so, we would have accomodated her, as I had to with another guest
of the con.(Or at least had a cab hailed at the hotel to take her to the
con site, 2 blocks away. I would have reimbursed her, as I did for
numerous other guest. But then again, she never contacted
VIP/Transportation for assistance.)

Also this attack on Pony... What the hell does it have to do with Ms.
Lackey. He could have just been a victim of random crime. It happens!!
This is Atlanta.. which according to the FBI has a high crime rate.
Nothing said has lead me to believe this was a direct, or indirect,
attack toward Ms. Lackey and or her party. BTW, what the hell is a
convention costume. Some one please explain that one. There is no
"Official D*C dress code!"

As for the private signing. Seems a bit snobness to have a
private/closed function at a open to the public con. In a room the con
paid for. (Saturday 7PM Conference room 1. Not in the program book.)
Glad she likes her fans, but what about those who "just discovered" her
work. Perhaps they would enjoy meeting here close up. Just a personal
observation.

Also another personal note... Mr. Davies attended the con with 5 broken
ribs, yet he did not complain. Dave Prowse had hip surgery just 5 days
proir to the con, yet he made it and had a great time.
Just my 2 cents worth

John Tackett
Director Of Transportation - Dragon*Con

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[Rich K. (netaxs staff)]

John Tackett (jtac...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Just a note on the "MERCEDES LACKEY REPORT"
[snip]
: Also this attack on Pony... What the hell does it have to do with Ms.

: Lackey. He could have just been a victim of random crime. It happens!!
: This is Atlanta.. which according to the FBI has a high crime rate.
: Nothing said has lead me to believe this was a direct, or indirect,
: attack toward Ms. Lackey and or her party. BTW, what the hell is a
: convention costume. Some one please explain that one. There is no
: "Official D*C dress code!"

Victims of random crime are seldom, from what I've heard, asked to verify
their identity by name before being attacked.

[Sphere Publisher]

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Rick, didn't you know that in Atlanta "Pony" is a common
name? *grin*

Of course it wasn't a RANDOM HIT. It was one of these nutty
"guardian" people who think that Mercedes and the whole crew
are out to destroy the world with evil. These are fans of
Mercedes who think that by killing her, they are saving her.
Don't you get it? They are nuts. We are dealing with very
sick people!

Rich K. (netaxs staff) wrote:

> : Also this attack on Pony... What the hell does it have
> to do with Ms.
> : Lackey. He could have just been a victim of random
> crime. It happens!!
> : This is Atlanta.. which according to the FBI has a high
> crime rate.
>

> Victims of random crime are seldom, from what I've heard,
> asked to verify
> their identity by name before being attacked.

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[Tal Greywolf]

A few observations from the sideline here.

First off, I did NOT attend DragonCon. This was not because I did not
wish to go, far from it. But RL work and RL moves being what they are,
the money was not there for a trip to Atlanta.

That having been said, I am somewhat surprised and appaled at the rather
defensive tone being taken by the committee staff of DragonCon concerning
what (to my eyes) were very serious breaches of security and a very real
lack of respect towards taking the threats against Mercedes Lackey as a
real threat. Rather than hearing any kind of apologies, or anything that
sounds like 'we're sorry this happened, we are going to take steps that
it doesn't happen again to another guest of the con' I'm seeing in these
postings both denial and disrespect. Denial that there was a threat to
Mercedes Lackey (a threat that I know is a fact) and disrespect for those
who attempted to provide some protection to her. Certainly there are legal
ramifications that could be pursued, but that is neither my jurisdiction
nor those of anyone else here.

What is important to understand is that an individual attended a convention
expecting certain levels of protection to be met. They apparently were
not from the information I have seem so far. Anyone who had a threat
against their life would understandably be upset and angry at the folks
running the convention, particularly when said folks had this information
months in advance. Either they viewed the request and the threat as being
blown out of proportion (that certainly was not the case given the
events that occurred) or were merely ignored as being expected of a
'prima dona' (which Mercedes Lackey most certainly is NOT).

To my eyes, the need for a professional bodyguard during the con was
evidence that if the con committee would not take the threat seriously,
then Mercedes Lackey was well within her rights to have. Our fandom
is no longer merely a group of folks with similar interests; there are
individuals who have taken lifestyles based on works and try to live
that way. And if they threaten another person, those threats should be
taken quite seriously.

Given the choice of who to believe here, I must base it on the evidence
at hand. So far, given that evidence, I have to say that I take the word
of Mercedes Lackey and those in her party over the words posted from
the con committee. DragonCon's personnel have not justified their actions
in this, nor have they shown that they took the threat to Mercedes Lackey
seriously. The results, so far, indicate that they should have, and should
be held responsible for those actions.

There will be those who'll probably try to twist around what I have said
here, but I speak only for myself. I have been around in fandom for the
last 24 years now, having attended many a convention throughout the
midwest and south central areas of this country along with the occasional
major convention. I have worked conventions in the past from gopher to
security myself to projectionist, so I do know how conventions run.

One of these days there WILL be an attack on a professional at a
convention. It is only a matter of time. We (meaning those who
run the conventions) cannot continue doing business the way it is
done now, or was done in the past. Protection for the pros will have
to become a necessary part of the business, if anything to protect not
only the professional but the convention itself from liability.

-Tal Greywolf

[Scott Schuler]

dshe...@netcom.com (Ed Dravecky III) wrote:

>Scott Schuler (sav...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>> Since I will only talk about things that I know of, I can tell you
>> that there was never a close/private function. Any events that the
>> High Flight team participated in were open to all.
>
>Ms. Lackey mentions two events limited to a small number of people
>in her own posting. The dinner seemed a reasonable thing for which
>to require reservations but the "midnight reading" for *25* people?
>C'mon! What's *that* all about? (Again, I was not there but these
>events are noted by Ms. Lackey herself in *her* "con report", as it
>were.)

>--
>Ed Dravecky III =<*>= This message was part of a complex plot
>dshe...@netcom.com = to take over the world. (B5 S5 TNT WH!)

Well, I would not have tried to fit more than 25 people into the
Queens Own suite. A suite by the way, paid for by members of
Queens own, not Dragoncon. At the very first meeting of the Queens
Own track, a signup sheet for EVERYONE was passed around. Everyone,
in that any member of Dragocon could go.

Scott

I refuse to get into a battle of
wits with an unarmed person

[Scott Schuler]

hub...@mindspring.com (alan huskey) wrote:

>sav...@worldnet.att.net (Scott Schuler) wrote:!)

>
>
>>Queens Own suite. A suite by the way, paid for by members of
>>Queens own, not Dragoncon.
>

>Better check your sources before you say things like this, as in call
>the D/C office. They are on the web. My understanding, as a
>director, was that D/C paid for all the function spce.
>

>Let's not try and start ANOTHER flame war...
>
>Alan
>
Please check your sources, The Queens Own Suite as in hotel suite was
at the Hyatt. Please e-mail me Alan, before you poste erroneous
information. If I make a mistake I will be happy to post a correction
to the news group. Your post, will serve to furnish the flames,
exactly opposite your stated intention

Never Explain Yourself, Your Friends Do Not Need It, And
Your Enemies Will Never Believe You Anyway.

[Nick]

On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:49:07 GMT, Constant Reader heard from
sav...@worldnet.att.net (Scott Schuler) , who opined:

>gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:
>
>>In <33c4f43a...@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Scott Schuler
>><sav...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>[. . .]
>>: Speculate
>>: all you want, the threat to Mercedes Lackey, and the High Flight team
>>: is very real.
>>
>>For those of us who don't follow her life with great attention, could you
>>or anyone else provide some more information about this, please?
>

>Gary please point your web browser at :
>
> http://www.usa.net/firebird/mlstraw.htm
>
>This deals with the nature and history of the threats against Misty
>and the High Flight Team. Anything concerning Dragoncon I would
>prefer to leave to others. Yes I was at the DC, and yes there were
>incidents there. However it has been, covered in better detail by
>others.
>
>I hope people who read the message keep an open mind.
>
>
>Scott

OK -- this whole little soap opera seemed amusing, even by _this_
newsgroup's standards, so I went to the above-mentioned web site and
read the two articles. Also searched DejaNews and read a couple of
posts my server never got.

All I can say is whoever Mercedes Lackey is [and I haven't had time
for much fiction reading the last twenty years or so, so forgive me],
I hope her fiction is better edited than the convoluted rant passing
for writing posted at the web site noted above, or her account of her
problems at D*C posted for her to Usenet.

She's apparently proud of the fact that she writes only to make money
-- I won't comment further on that aspect, I 'spose she's entitled to
do whatever she wants for money, it's free country. I just couldn't
imagine anyone paying money for writing that bad!

Instead of threats on her life, real or imagined, I should think she'd
be in greater fear of Editors everywhere!

YMMV and assume the generous use of Emoticons.

[Doug Berry]

On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:07:06 -0400, Sphere Publisher
<mas...@fantasylink.com> wrote:

>Rick, didn't you know that in Atlanta "Pony" is a common
>name? *grin*
>
>Of course it wasn't a RANDOM HIT. It was one of these nutty
>"guardian" people who think that Mercedes and the whole crew
>are out to destroy the world with evil. These are fans of
>Mercedes who think that by killing her, they are saving her.
>Don't you get it? They are nuts. We are dealing with very
>sick people!

OK, speaking as a trained sniper and one-time bodyguard, let me say
that if Mercedes Lackey had a serious problem with a group trying to
kill her she would be dead. No matter how good you and your people
are, you can't stop someone from getting close with a .32 and blowing
off 8 rounds before you can react.

That said, I have to wonder.. with all I'm reading about this, I can't
help but wonder how credible a threat there was. After all, normally
when someone is the target of a murder plot, the local police will
assign an escort. This is very true when the person is a public
figure of any sort. Also, the posted actions taken by the Lackey
party showed a rather cavalier attitude.. staying in a room where
meanacing persons keep popping in and out? Going to a crowded bar
during a heavyweight title fight? These are not the actions of
someone who is fearful of her life. I've previously commented on the
actions of the so-called bodyguards.. sounds like they didn't take the
job seriously.

--
+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dbe...@hooked.net |
| http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/ |
|---------------------------------------------|
| "Those wish to seem learned to fools, |
| seem fools to the learned." |
| -Marcus Fabius Quintilianus |
+---------------------------------------------+

[Gary Farber]

In <33d29953....@nntp.ix.netcom.com> Nick <npo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: All I can say is whoever Mercedes Lackey is

A popular fantasy writer.

: [and I haven't had time

: for much fiction reading the last twenty years or so, so forgive me],
: I hope her fiction is better edited than the convoluted rant passing

: for writing posted at the web site noted above, or her account of her
: problems at D*C posted for her to Usenet.

It was certainly an impassioned, and at times silly (I really don't need
advice about how to tell reality from fantasy, nor on what sorts of people
to avoid -- I seem to have been considerably more sźuccessfulat this than
Ms. Lackey), rant, but it was entirely coherent. Questionable, but
coherent.

: She's apparently proud of the fact that she writes only to make money

: -- I won't comment further on that aspect, I 'spose she's entitled to
: do whatever she wants for money, it's free country. I just couldn't
: imagine anyone paying money for writing that bad!

She didn't say she writes only to make money; she said she prefers to
publish material that will sell better than material that will sell few
copies; few writers disagree; nor was there anything untowardly "bad" in
the technical aspects of the writing of her rant, in my professional
opinion.

: Instead of threats on her life, real or imagined, I should think she'd

: be in greater fear of Editors everywhere!

I think Ms. Lackey's assumptions may be successfully challenged, but this
seems fairly ad hominem to me, Nick. It's particularly peculiar given the
number of editors she's dealt with, and the number of books she's sold.

: YMMV and assume the generous use of Emoticons.

Which ones?
--
-- Gary Farber gfa...@panix.com
Copyright 1997 Brooklyn, NY, USA

[Gary Farber]

In <5q35rt$4...@camel4.mindspring.com> Bill Steinen
<ste...@mindspring.com> wrote:
[. . .]

: I'd hate to see her have to

: pull a Salmon Rushidie, though. What a lousy situation.

What, she'd have to swim upstream to spawn? ;-)

(Hint: Salman Rushdie is not, in fact, a fish.)

[Scott Schuler]

gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:

l assertion that there have been threats, and
>doesn't even go so far as to say whether she received a letter, a phone
>call, a series, or give any other information even resembling a concrete
>assertion, let alone a verifiable fact. Dates, times, numbers, sources,
>specific quotes, please?
>
>One would think that she might be want to be specific and clear.
>

>What did you mean by this? Why would people not have open minds?
>
Gary, no offense intended but I willr not go onto details about this.
I have taken the threats at face value. I would suggest that you
write to High Flight if you want the details. If you feel this is all
a fabrication, that is your right. I believe Ms. Lackey.

Scott

[Sphere Publisher]

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Arghh?? I read that 'convoluted rant' that she wrote, and it
was amazing. The humor was extremely advanced and contain a
lot of references that only an extremely educated person
would know. Almost everyone in my family has a PHD in
English, and we read it and had to look up some of the
references. Mercedes Lackey showed her versitity in only in
a little in that letter.

I am sorry you didn't see the humor and the brilliance of
it. However, I think whoever edited made it much worse by
putting CAPITAL letters every so often, and doing a poor job
of typing (who am I to talk, I am the type devil himself)

Nick wrote:

> All I can say is whoever Mercedes Lackey is [and I haven't

> had time
> for much fiction reading the last twenty years or so, so
> forgive me],
> I hope her fiction is better edited than the convoluted
> rant passing

> for writing posted at the web site noted above, or her
> account of her

> problems at D*C posted for her to Usenet.

--

------
Win prizes from Sphere Online Publications
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[Sphere Publisher]

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Gary, do you think that those who know this information feel
the need to tell *you*? (Or anyone else) When is the last
time yu EVER heard of someone revealing this information?
There are threats against her life, and that is really all
anyone wants to know. I am sure that if you were a law
enforcement individual, they would be more than happy to
supply you with the information. However, if you noticed,
you are not.

The FBI is seriously investigating these threats. They are
more than threats, but instead an organized 'secret'
organization of nuts, among other things.

Gary Farber wrote:

> In short, it gives no more hard information than I had
> before when I asked about threats to Ms. Lackey; it merely
> ultimately
> repeats a vague general assertion that there have been

> threats, and
> doesn't even go so far as to say whether she received a
> letter, a phone
> call, a series, or give any other information even
> resembling a concrete
> assertion, let alone a verifiable fact. Dates, times,
> numbers, sources,
> specific quotes, please?
>
> One would think that she might be want to be specific and
> clear.

--

------
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http://www.fantasylink.com

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[Scott Schuler]

dil...@mindspring.com (Michael Dillson) wrote:

>Just goes to show you shouldn't open your mouth if you don't know.
>
>From the Operations Scheduling for Dragon*Con 1997:
>
>>Saturday, June 28, 1997, 19:00 - Inforum Conference I
>>Private Queen's Own Autographings Session
>>DO NOT PUBLISH. Access restricted to Queen's Own members.
>
>This, as well as two other events in another track were restricted access
>and really torqued me when I saw them.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Mike Dillson Atlanta, GA dil...@mindspring.com
>All content copyright by writer and may not used without permission.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
I would also ask Micahel, that you identify yourself, and your
relation with Dragoncon in future posts. In reading other people's
posting, I realize that you, as a staff member of Dragoncon, had
access to things the general fan did not. As I said in my earlier
post ALL events listed under the Queens Own track in the Dragoncon
guide were open to all. Your distortion of the facts leads me to
believe that you were one of the people involved in the "fiasco"
surrounding the security measures, or lack thereof

[Ed Dravecky III]

Scott Schuler (sav...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
> Gary, no offense intended but I willr not go onto details about this.
> I have taken the threats at face value. I would suggest that you
> write to High Flight if you want the details. If you feel this is all
> a fabrication, that is your right. I believe Ms. Lackey.
>

> Scott
> Never Explain Yourself, Your Friends Do Not Need It, And
> Your Enemies Will Never Believe You Anyway.

Ah, so you do not know this to be a fact. You believe it
to be true, which it may well be, but you have no evidence
that these are concrete threats.

Thanks for including your personal philosophy regarding
explanations as it will help myself and others discount
your assertions in the future as non-fact-based.

[Ed Dravecky III]

Sphere Publisher (mas...@fantasylink.com) wrote:
> Arghh?? I read that 'convoluted rant' that she wrote, and it
> was amazing. The humor was extremely advanced and contain a
> lot of references that only an extremely educated person
> would know. Almost everyone in my family has a PHD in
> English, and we read it and had to look up some of the
> references. Mercedes Lackey showed her versitity in only in
> a little in that letter.

I am NOT the kind of person who spelling- or grammar-flames since I
make too many mistakes/typos to claim any approach to perfection in
this area. But could you get one of your PhD relatives to unpack
your last sentence above for the group?

[Bill Steinen]

gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:

>In <5q35rt$4...@camel4.mindspring.com> Bill Steinen
><ste...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>[. . .]

>: I'd hate to see her have to
>: pull a Salmon Rushidie, though. What a lousy situation.

>What, she'd have to swim upstream to spawn? ;-)

>(Hint: Salman Rushdie is not, in fact, a fish.)
>--

Gakk...I hate it when I misspell stuff. I hadn't actually seen the
name in print for quite a while.

[Stevens R. Miller]

Scott Schuler wrote:

> Never Explain Yourself, Your Friends Do Not Need It, And
> Your Enemies Will Never Believe You Anyway.
> Never Explain Yourself, Your Friends Do Not Need It, And
> Your Enemies Will Never Believe You Anyway.

And never repeat yourself; people who can read do not... 8-)

--
WEB PAGE:MANAGING POLICE ENCOUNTERS | Freedom from fear and want.
http://www.users.interport.net/~lex | Freedom of speech and religion.

[Stevens R. Miller]

Ed Dravecky III wrote:

> Scott Schuler (sav...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:

> > Never Explain Yourself, Your Friends Do Not Need It, And
> > Your Enemies Will Never Believe You Anyway.

> Thanks for including your personal philosophy regarding

> explanations as it will help myself and others discount
> your assertions in the future as non-fact-based.

Heh. I don't know Scott, so I can't comment on what this
might mean in his own case, but his partition neglects to
address those who are neither his friends nor his enemies.
In that class might yet be people who will choose their
side based upon what explanations are, or are not, provided.

[Stevens R. Miller]

Tal Greywolf wrote:

> You're not going to get dates, names or anything like that. When you have
> an active FBI investigation against these individuals, you don't give away
> the information. I do know a few of the names involved, I know where they
> are located, but I am not allowed, legally allowed, to divulge it.

Tal, can you at least tell us why you believe you are under this
injunction? I am familiar with the circumstances that prohibit
people to release information in the context of legal proceedings,
and would be interested to know which one applies here.

[Seth Breidbart]

In article <33c587e3...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,

Scott Schuler <sav...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>hub...@mindspring.com (alan huskey) wrote:
>>sav...@worldnet.att.net (Scott Schuler) wrote:!)

>>>Queens Own suite. A suite by the way, paid for by members of
>>>Queens own, not Dragoncon.
>>Better check your sources before you say things like this, as in call
>>the D/C office. They are on the web. My understanding, as a
>>director, was that D/C paid for all the function spce.

>Please check your sources, The Queens Own Suite as in hotel suite was
>at the Hyatt. Please e-mail me Alan, before you poste erroneous
>information. If I make a mistake I will be happy to post a correction
>to the news group. Your post, will serve to furnish the flames,
>exactly opposite your stated intention

From another post in this thread:

}From: dil...@mindspring.com (Michael Dillson)
}Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:19:06 GMT
}Message-ID: <33c72869...@news.atl.mindspring.com>

}From the Operations Scheduling for Dragon*Con 1997:
}
}>Saturday, June 28, 1997, 19:00 - Inforum Conference I
}>Private Queen's Own Autographings Session
}>DO NOT PUBLISH. Access restricted to Queen's Own members.

So it certainly _looks_ like there were "Queen's Own" events that were
limited to members of that club, that took place in function space
paid for by Dragoncon.

Now, if you want to weasel out by claiming that, for instance, all
public events were open to all members (duh...) or that there were
some private events in a private suite (so what?), fine.

Seth

[Kelly Lockhart]

Tal Greywolf wrote:

> I am somewhat surprised and appaled at the rather defensive tone being
> taken by the committee staff of DragonCon concerning what (to my eyes)
> were very serious breaches of security and a very real lack of respect
> towards taking the threats against Mercedes Lackey as a real threat.

I ma waiting to hear in this forum from either Ed Kramer (Con Chair) or
Mike Dillson (Head of Security) about this situation. So far, nearly
everything that has been posted has been by people whom are not intimate
to all the details or are posting second-hand reports. Before I make
any judgement on either party, I will wait to here an official response
from the convention.

Kelly Lockhart
Chattanooga, TN

[Dante]

On 9 Jul 1997 01:26:05 GMT, mrob...@worldnet.att.net (Matt Roberds)
wrote:

>>THE DRAGONCON REPORT
>>Mercedes Lackey
>>
>>As some of you may know, Larry and I have been the subjects of---well,
>>there's no better way to put this---a death threat.
>>
>>This has been ongoing from January, when we first learned of this and
>>the stated target date of this threat corresponded very closely with the
>>date of DragonCon, which we were scheduled to attend. When the threat
>>became even more serious, I tried to cancel our appearance at that time,
>>and later attempted to do so again, but was talked out of canceling
>>both times.
>>
>>At the time we scheduled our appearance at the extreme urging of Ed
>>Kramer, we were promised the following: first class air (my back can't
>>take coach seats anymore), a room for Larry and myself, a second room
>>(adjoining and with a connecting door) for our own nonprofessional
>>bodyguard and Mark Shepherd to share---the rooms to be on a limited-access
>>floor, and a speaking fee to cover the expenses of a bird-sitter and
>>the airfare and meals of the bodyguard. This was witnessed by Marilyn
>>Morey, head of the Queen's Own track, and later verified in writing from
>>Ed Kramer.

According to our confirmation letter of July 18, 1996:

"Thanks again for accepting our invitation as Special Guests
at Dragon Con '97, June 26-29, 1997. As agreed, we will provide you
with first class round-trip air transportation to Atlanta
International Airport, executive transportation to and from the Hotel,
room accommodations and meals at the Hyatt Regency Atlanta, Convention
Memberships, and Banquet Tickets. We will also provide a $1,000
stipend, in advance, to provide for air transportation, meals, and
additional expenses for your personal security assistant that will be
traveling with you. We will also provide an adjoining hotel room for
your personal security assistant. In addition, we will provide
additional security personnel (approved in advance by your personal
security assistant) to provide for time off-shift."

At the time of this confirmation, the Hyatt Regency Atlanta
was our only main convention hotel. It has keyed floors, however, it
is located 2.5 blocks from the Inforum Convention Center when the
Queen's Own Track would take place. In January, I had a very positive
conversation with Misty and Larry's live-in bodyguard (who would share
his room with Mark Shepherd). We discussed the distance to the Hyatt
and our new hotel, the Westin Peachtree Plaza, which adjoined the
Inforum Convention Center via climate controlled walkways. He
understood the Westin had no locked floors, and chose that venue for
Misty and Larry to stay in as opposed to either walking on the street
or waiting for a transport back and forth each day.

>>At the time I attempted to cancel, I was assured that not only would all
>>these things be taken care of, but that we would always be traveling by
>>service passages and freight elevators between panels and would not have
>>to walk out in the open on the street, and that further, a professional
>>protection service would be hired for us. Ed Kramer was also putting a

>>great deal of pressure on Marilyn Morey (at a time when her mother was

>>dying in intensive care) to get us to agree not to cancel. Both because
>>of those assurances and to relieve Marilyn of this pressure, I agreed.
>>I was assured that the room arrangements would definitely be as promised,
>>two adjoining rooms sharing a door on a limited access floor.

In May, I received a phone call from Harlan Ellison with Misty
and Larry's concerns and called them personally. At this point, the
bodyguard I had spoken to earlier was no longer with them. We
discussed that Dragon Con would contract a bodyguard locally for them
instead, that would meet them at their room in the morning, and
deliver them back there at night. The next day, I received a
cancellation note.

I called Morgan Morey, to let her know of the situation -- it
was her programming track, our liaison to Queen's Own, and the person
that initially arranged for Misty and Larry's appearance to begin
with. There was never any pressure put on Morgan by me, however,
Misty and Larry's cancellation, according to Morgan, would put a great
deal of pressure on her, as many Queen's Own members had already made
travel arrangements. Morgan said she had little influence over Misty
and Larry's decisions; I told her not to worry and left it at that.

Harlan and I spoke again (who anecdotally told me that the
last time he had received a death threat, he walked around at his next
public appearance with a target taped to his chest), and said he would
be willing to chat with Misty again if she gave him a call. I then
faxed a letter to Misty and Larry outlining our precautions and a
public notice of their cancellation to be approved -- and a note to
call Harlan. The next morning we received another fax from them again
confirming their attendance and accepting our offer to provide a
bodyguard.

>>When we arrived at DragonCon on Wednesday night, with Mark, Pony White
>>our own guard, and Matt Roberds our gopher, we discovered we had been
>>assigned to two rooms separated by a third room, on a completely open
>>floor at the Westin. Further, the service elevator opened directly across

>>from our room. If anyone wanted to sneak in via the service elevator
>>and get into the room, he could do so virtually without being seen by

>>anyone, and get away without being caught! We didn't appreciate this,
>>but Ed Kramer was not available, so we decided to make do until Thursday.

Steve Martin, President of StarGuard, stated he spoke with
Misty on several occasions; even as recent as the day prior to her
arrival. I spoke with Misty the weekend prior to their travel. As
this time, we even discussed that Mark Shepherd was originally
supposed to share a room with their attending bodyguard, which was no
longer attending. To make sure that Mark Shepherd still had a place
to stay, I offered to provide the additional room to Mark at no cost.
Misty graciously accepted.

At all times, Dragon Con went far above and beyond what is
generally expected from a convention. This is a practice which we try
to apply to all aspects of the convention, but especially to our
presenters.

A Mr. Pony White of High Flight Personal Security arrived with
Misty and Larry on Wednesday in Atlanta. At no time did we, or
StarGuard, have any knowledge of another attending security guard.
Not that this was a problem, mind you, however our Guest Services
staff did not assure adjoining rooms upon check-in at the Westin, as
this was no longer necessary given the knowledge at hand. If this had
been a known problem at the time, it would have been addressed
immediately. Please note that by Wednesday evening, only half of the
attendees staying at the convention hotels had arrived, by Thursday
morning, all convention hotels would be booked to capacity.

Please note that throughout the convention I carried both a
cell phone which rang from my home number and a convention radio. Our
Guest Services office (open nearly 24 hours a day) is empowered to
handle room change requests like this even without my knowledge or
verbal approval (as they did in the case of Clive Barker, also staying
at the Westin. In addition, the Westin concierge could have also made
this change (or could have called me directly if there had been a
problem).

>>On Thursday, the professional bodyguard met with us and just about had
>>a litter of kittens when he saw the room arrangement. We had a panel

>>to attend---and had to walk openly through the city streets to get to it,

>>another touch the professional was not pleased with. Once at the Inforum,
>>we had to parade openly through that building rather than taking service
>>corridors as had been promised, and he was even more annoyed. He set
>>us up at our panel, while Ops was informed that the room arrangement was
>>unacceptable from a security standpoint. Meanwhile, the pro ordered us to
>>send Matt Roberds out on any errands we had---we were NOT to go parading
>>out through the convention except when we had to go to panels, arrive,
>>or leave. We were also not to linger after any panels to talk to people

>>or sign things, as this would make a good place for someone to target us.
>>

>>The panel ended at 2, and we went to Ops to see if anything had been done.
>>Nothing had been. The professional explained why this was unacceptable
>>about a dozen times. A staff member attempted to fix things, and at
>>around 4 pm finally came up with a solution---or so she said. We were to
>>check out of our rooms at the Westin immediately, take our things to the
>>Hyatt, and there would be someone waiting to check us into exactly the
>>kind of rooms we were promised. Larry and I both had panels, so Mark
>>Shepherd and Matt Roberds agreed to run back to the Westin, check out
>>all of us and get things taken care of. We went to our panels. We came
>>back to Ops after our panels to discover that when Mark had gone to the
>>Hyatt, no one there knew what he was talking about. Now not only did
>>we not have the rooms we had been promised, we didn't have ANY rooms.
>>The professional guard nearly had cardiac arrest.
>>
>>We then went through three hours of nightmare, as he explained the kind
>>of setup we HAD TO HAVE for the sake of safety, and the staff tried
>>to arrange it, only to be thwarted time after time because Ed Kramer
>>wasn't around to approve it. Now, we had all been in body armor since 10
>>that morning; we were tired, overheated, and had nowhere to go to even
>>take the stuff off, and our last meal had been at 11 am. By seven we
>>were miserable. Wearing body-armor is a lot like wearing six girdles,
>>a corset, and some football plates; it pinches and bruises, even if it is
>>perfectly fitted, and it is horribly hot. That's the state we were in,
>>as the clock headed towards 8 pm and our last event of Thursday.
>>
>>The professional came up (after fifteen minutes of checking his sources)
>>with exactly what we needed at the Four Seasons---but Ed Kramer wouldn't
>>approve it. We were finally offered the following at the Hyatt: either
>>two rooms on separate unsecured floors, or a "suite" of two rooms with
>>a single pull-down Murphy bed with no rollaways available. I don't
>>know where they expected Pony, Mark and Matt to sleep, but WE certainly
>>weren't going to make them sleep on the floor. At this point Larry took
>>the phone and told Ed Kramer that his so-called offer was far too little,
>>too late; that he was in breach of contract, and that we were no longer
>>affiliated with DragonCon. We turned in all DragonCon materials and
>>went to our last Queen's Own function of the day.

On Thursday, when I first learned of Pony White and the
rooming dilemma, I immediately contacted the Westin to arrange for two
adjoining rooms. When I learned that this was still not acceptable, I
called over to the Hyatt personally and arranged with Ged Matthews
(our Hyatt liaison) for two adjoining rooms on a keyed floor. These
was accomplished swiftly and without question. However, there was
indeed a snag. The two adjoining rooms that Ged assigned were in use;
the Hyatt reservation screen he read from was in error. We had a
major problem on our hands at this point. I also called both the
Marriott Marquis and the Atlanta Hilton from our Guest Services
office, but could not find appropriate space.

I then went over to the Hyatt myself to resolve the situation.
There was only one room on a key-access floor remaining in the hotel
-- and my room (also on a keyed floor). I instructed Ged to move all
of my things onto a dolly and reset the room (which they did). I then
called over our Guest Services office and spoke either to Pony White
or Matt Roberds, and with Ged Matthews standing next to me, explained
that we now had two rooms ready and available on keyed-access floors.
They were not adjoining, however, that configuration would be arranged
in the morning. If this was still unacceptable, I also offered to
make reservations at another hotel further away. Ged Matthews with
the Hyatt will confirm both of these offers. Had I even known about
availability at the Four Season (which I had not even heard of until
reading Misty and Larry's report), I most certainly would have
approved.

Moments later, when Misty and Larry arrived at the Hyatt for a
function in the Queen's Own Suite, I tried to talk with them in
person, but was told by Pony White that they were late to an
appointment and would be unable to do so. I then received a phone
call from StarGuard asking for direction, or any change in plans. I
told them, unquestionably, that they were to continue their service
until such time that Misty and Larry left Atlanta.

>>Following this, we spent five minutes on the phone and got exactly
>>what we needed---but out of our own pockets, which we frankly couldn't
>>really afford. We've had devastating losses from a fire that destroyed
>>Larry's studio, and our spare money goes into bird-rehab and supporting
>>an underfunded volunteer fire department. We moved into our new
>>arrangements, and returned for the QO midnight reading.

From this point on, we had no clue as to where Misty and Larry
were staying, what their arrangements were or how they were to either
enter or leave the building (although Mike Dillson, our Director of
Security, had arranged a clear passage from the parking deck to the
Queen's Own room via back passages). Throughout the remainder of the
weekend, all Dragon Con programs and autograph sessions scheduled
(outside of Queen's Own) were missed.

>>From then on, we attended QO functions only----functions coordinated
>>and arranged by Marilyn Morey, who made everything run with perfect
>>smoothness. These functions were open to all members of DragonCon, but
>>QO attendees were given preference when---as happened at every one of our
>>panels----there were too many people for the room. The only functions

>>restricted were the midnight readings----they were restricted to 25
>>people, chosen by random drawing, because that was all the room would
>>hold---and the dinner, which had been by reservation only. Everything
>>else was always open to non-QO attendees.
>>

>>The professional bodyguards were wonderful, cool and resourceful and a
>>lot of fun to be around. They gave us the accolade of telling us that
>>we were a couple of their best clients, since we always did what they
>>told us to without an argument. Poor Matt deserves another accolade,
>>as he ran back and forth with drinks, food, and packages all three
>>remaining days without a complaint. Pony also deserves high points,
>>fitting seamlessly in with the professionals. The additional security

>>provided by the QO volunteers (we never saw a a single moment of coverage
>>from DragonCon security personel) is also greatly appreciated.
>>

>>Everything went smoothly until the last signing on Saturday night.
>>We had just about finished the signing when we had---as the pros so
>>gracefully put it---an "incident." A half-dozen suspicious characters had
>>been in and out of the room during the signing----watching the security,
>>and NOT waiting to get anything signed. As the last couple of people
>>got autographs, a couple QO staff were breaking things down, and with
>>no one anywhere near the light switches---the lights suddenly went out
>>in the room. It was a very tense moment until the QO staff got the
>>lights back on, most of which, for Larry and me, was spent under a pile
>>of sheltering bodies! Once the lights were on, the pros were taking no
>>chances, they hustled us out and to a safe room. We still do not know
>>who caused the lights to go out, or why they did so.

>>
>>After we relaxed a little, the two pros, Larry, Pony, a QO volunteer,
>>and myself all went to a sports-bar to watch the Tyson fight---and I

>>finally got the pros to EAT something! They'd spent most of the day
>>being so "on the job" that I don't think they'd gotten more than a bite
>>or two between them, even in restaurants. At last (after three days
>>in body-armor and one near-cardiac-arrest) we finished all the panels
>>on Sunday and took the pros off for a pizza-party with the QO staff.
>>Everybody thought the pros were great, and they had a fabulous time.
>>Both of them came with us as far as our hotel; the first went on home,
>>while the second accompanied us all the way to the jetway to the plane
>>at the airport. He, I am told, returned to the party for a last couple
>>of slices of pizza and a very-well-earned drink.

>>
>>But it seems that our drama wasn't over yet, because as Pony left the
>>party at about 12:30 pm, he was approached in the Hyatt lobby by two

>>men dressed in black convention-costumes. One asked if he was "Pony",
>>and when he acknowledged that he was, the second man grabbed and held him
>>while the first took a walking-stick and tried to beat him up with it.
>>This was, by the way, in full sight of several witnesses. Fortunately,
>>Pony was still in his body-armor, and he is highly skilled at martial
>>arts. He only took one blow before getting free and damaging both
>>of his attackers; the man who was holding him fled, but he managed to
>>down the one with the stick and handcuffed him to the railing until the
>>police came. His attacker was taken to jail---this is also a matter of
>>public record that can be verified---on assualt charges.
>>
>>Pony got two cracked ribs, a bruised area about the size of a basketball,
>>but no further damage as the body-armor absorbed most of the blow.
>>We have no further information about his assailant at this time, but
>>it would certainly appear that Pony took the hit that was meant for us,
>>which only the presence of Pony, two professionals and several volunteers
>>saved us from. So much for our being paranoid, and I think we were
>>very lucky to have been in the hands of real pros instead of DragonCon.

>>If it had been left up to Ed Kramer and DragonCon, odds are we'd have
>>been hurt or dead before Sunday.

We were unaware of the incident involving Pony White until
your report and would like to learn more about it, and the fans
responsible for such a heinous act. Dragon Con is indeed relieved
that Pony is doing okay.

The Hyatt Regency Atlanta, and their Security Staff, are also
anxious to learn more about this as well, as they, too, were unaware
of the incident which occurred in their lobby. The Atlanta Police
Department is presently researching evidence of the incident as well.

Ed Kramer, Chairman
Dragon Con

[Gary Farber]

In <33c842b5...@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Scott Schuler

<sav...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
[. . .]

: I would also ask Micahel, that you identify yourself, and your

: relation with Dragoncon in future posts.

He's done that about a billion times here already, not to mention certain
parties who regularly post about it. :-)

: In reading other people's

: posting, I realize that you, as a staff member of Dragoncon, had
: access to things the general fan did not. As I said in my earlier
: post ALL events listed under the Queens Own track in the Dragoncon
: guide were open to all. Your distortion of the facts leads me to
: believe that you were one of the people involved in the "fiasco"
: surrounding the security measures, or lack thereof

He's already made perfectly clear who he is and what perspective he's
writing from.

[Kirsten M. Berry]

Didja hear what Sphere Publisher <mas...@fantasylink.com> said?

}Arghh?? I read that 'convoluted rant' that she wrote, and it
}was amazing. The humor was extremely advanced and contain a
}lot of references that only an extremely educated person
}would know. Almost everyone in my family has a PHD in
}English, and we read it and had to look up some of the
}references. Mercedes Lackey showed her versitity in only in
}a little in that letter.
}

}I am sorry you didn't see the humor and the brilliance of
}it.

How were we supposed to see it, if she went to such lengths to
distance herself from Joe Fan by using the absolute extent of the
language available to her? You yourself just stated that she got
EXTREMELY esoteric in her missive. How is someone like myself -
graduated from highschool with a low-B average, with no advanced
schooling - going to be able to follow her?

One would think that if she wishes fandom at large to be made aware of
what she perceives to be a very real threat (I'm not going to debate
whether or not the threat is actual; that's a whole different can o'
worms that I don't want to get into), she would be as plain and
concise as possible. "Someone sent me a letter stating that I was a
threat to the common good of mankind, and that it was their duty
before their chosen Deity to see that I will pollute the universe with
my works no further." Instead she comes across as someone with an
inflated opinion of herself, who chose to sully her person through
contact with the Great Unwashed, and wants to warn everyone about the
consequences thereof. "The Last Straw" struck me as having been more
about lecturing her fans not to reach out to anyone else whose
viewpoint might in any way differ from Reality, and less about the
danger she feels she is in.

} However, I think whoever edited made it much worse by
}putting CAPITAL letters every so often, and doing a poor job
}of typing (who am I to talk, I am the type devil himself)

Agreed. It might actually have been in Firebird's best interests to
arrange to have Ms. Lackey's original message scanned in, and posted
it to their website as an image file. The public could have seen the
original intact, with all emphasis where it was intended.

--
Kirsten M. Berry - square peg in a round planet - ki...@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~kirib/ Home of the Samurai Webmistress
******************************************************************
"There's a snake on top of every ladder,
And he'll tell you that he's your best friend."
-"Snakes and Ladders," Men at Work

[Adam M. Lipkin]

Sphere Publisher (mas...@fantasylink.com) wrote:
: references. Mercedes Lackey showed her versitity in only in

: a little in that letter.

Mercedes showed her versitity?!? On a publically available web site? I
mean, little kids could see that! I hope someone alerts the makers of the
various web-site-blocker programs.

--Adam, thanking G it's Friday

Adam Lipkin ali...@emory.edu
http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~alipkin/
_____________________________________________________________
"It's been downhill since we stood up straight."
--Stuart Davis, "Progress"

--
.

[Sphere Publisher]

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Are you implying Michael that all of this has been falsified
an is a lie? What exactly are you saying about Mercedes and
her bunch.

Michael Dillson wrote:

> I do find it unusual, however, that Pony managed to get
> into a fight with
> these people in the middle of the afternoon (12:30 PM by
> you account) in
> the middle of the Hyatt lobby, and nobody at the Hyatt
> noticed.
>
> Strange, that....
>
> -----------------

> --------------------------------------------------
> Mike Dillson Atlanta, GA
> dil...@mindspring.com
> All content copyright by writer and may not used without
> permission.
> -----------
> --------------------------------------------------------

--

------
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[John St524]

In article <5q5r12$f...@panix3.panix.com>, se...@panix.com (Seth Breidbart)
writes:

>Subject: Re: Mercedes Lackey - "The Dragoncon Report"
>From: se...@panix.com (Seth Breidbart)
>Date: 11 Jul 1997 13:37:38 -0400

Seth are you as stuoid as I think you are?

::::::::::reading post:::::::::::

yes you are!!!!!!!!

You are living proof to the follwoing statement

The experiment has begub, a million monkeys at a million typewriters...
we call it usenet

Jon Stevens

[John St524]

In article <33c688be...@news.atl.mindspring.com>,
dil...@mindspring.com (Michael Dillson) writes:

> Re: Mercedes Lackey - "The Dragoncon Report"

>From: dil...@mindspring.com (Michael Dillson)
>Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:40:34 GMT
>
>sav...@worldnet.att.net (Scott Schuler) wrote:
>
>:>I would also ask Micahel, that you identify yourself, and your

>:>relation with Dragoncon in future posts.
>

>Easy, I'm the head of Operations for the convention. I have access to
the
>information you are harping about and YOU DO NOT.
>
>:>In reading other people's

>:>posting, I realize that you, as a staff member of Dragoncon, had
>:>access to things the general fan did not. As I said in my earlier
>:>post ALL events listed under the Queens Own track in the Dragoncon
>:>guide were open to all.
>

>Sorry about that, bub, but you are either mistaken, or deliberately
>relating incorrect information. I have the master program listing right
>here in front of me. Look in your pocket program. I'll wait.......
>As you can see, this event was not published, as per the request of the
QOC
>who arranged the item.
>
>:>Your distortion of the facts leads me to

>:>believe that you were one of the people involved in the "fiasco"
>:>surrounding the security measures, or lack thereof
>

>The only fiasco I see is a paranoid writer. The "threat" I have seen is
>perceived, not actual. Review of the "evidence" by officials resulted in
>no action.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------

>Mike Dillson Atlanta, GA dil...@mindspring.com
>
>All content copyright by writer and may not used without permission.

Me thinks you are full of it Mr. Dillson

In fact I know it

Jon Stevens

[Gary Farber]

In <33C6C018...@fantasylink.com> Sphere Publisher
<mas...@fantasylink.com> wrote:
: This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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: Perhaps you should look up the word versitility! Or perhaps
: you know someting about her that we don't?

Perhaps you might like to actually correctly spell the word you are
reaching for. There is no such word as "versitility" in English, which
makes looking it up rather difficult. You also spelled it as "versitity"
the first time, which also is a non-existent word.

Not intending to make a spelling flame, but simply to try to help, perhaps
you don't notice that almost all of your posts are riddled with these
strange misspellings, solecisims, and grammatical confusions, which
affects people's perceptions of your posts and your person. You might
want to take that into account when considering your own perceptions of
how people consistently react to you on Usenet, in every newsgroup you go
to, no matter that they never heard of you before.

Constantly declaring your interlocuters to either be Nazis,
"anti-semetes," or having "lost their mind" is also not a credibility
helper.

HTH.

[. . . .]

[Paul W. Cashman]

sav...@worldnet.att.net (Scott Schuler) writes:

>Nice try Ed, now try reading my posts in their entirety, before
>quoting. I was a witness to events at Dragoncon that confirm the
>threats.

Could you describe these events, please?

>Have I seen the FBI reports? The Atlanta police report when Pony <a
>personal bodyguard and member of the High Flight Team> was beaten up?
>Of course not.

I was informed earlier today that, not only does the Hyatt not have a
record of this incident, the Atlanta Police don't either. I'd very
much like to see a copy of the incident report from either source.

>Since several people posting here are trying to obscure the facts, and
>trvialize what happend... THE BOTTOM LINE:

>FACT...There was a contract between Mercedes Lackey, and Dragoncon
>over security arrangements.
>FACT, the conditions stated in the contract were not met

Could you provide a copy of this contract? I'm sure you must have a
reference copy, since you seen to be familiar with it.

Y'see, I once had a wee problem with a guest and a missing "contract"
at a convention here.
Sans the gory details, some aspects of that situation have a striking
resemblance to the current one. (Aside to Those in the Know: "I
told ya so!")

>Fact, All events listed under the Queens Own track were open to all
>members of Dragoncon.

All events listed publically were open to all attendees, but of course,
some attendees might get confused at seeing Queen's Own listed as her
fan club (which, of course, it is) and could reasonably conclude that
events in the QO track were members-only. The private reading was not
listed publically and was coded not-publish in the database,
presumably because when Lori Whitworth and Tim Farley were developing
the database, they were informed it was a private function. --Which
is fine, IMHO. Queen's Own has had private functions in the past
(e.g., Dinner with Mark Shepherd) and there were several semi-official
ones for other groups this year -- events we were aware of so we could
avoid scheduling conflicts, etc. White Wolf's party and one offsite
event for the Imajica card-game artists are two examples.

A friend of mine, Pam Doise, flew in for D*C in part because Misty was
a guest. When she arrived in the QO room early on during the
convention she didn't feel too welcome; someone (not Morgan M.)
was griping about something and she left after a few minutes. Then,
after Misty cancelled her attendance at non-QO events, she resolved
never to purchase another book by Misty again. I've received a few
emails from people skimming the Website who, after seeing all the
contretemps about this, have made the same decision. Sorry....

--
+-- I know it's easier to walk away than look it in the eye.... ---+
| I would raise a shelter to the sky... (Dream Theater, |
| And here beneath this star tonight I lie.... "Surrounded") |
+-- Paul W. Cashman van...@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~vanyel --+

[Sphere Publisher]

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Perhaps you should look up the word versitility! Or perhaps
you know someting about her that we don't?

Adam M. Lipkin wrote:

> Mercedes showed her versitity?!? On a publically
> available web site? I
> mean, little kids could see that! I hope someone alerts
> the makers of the
> various web-site-blocker programs.
>
> --Adam, thanking G it's Friday
>
> Adam Lipkin ali...@emory.edu
> http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~alipkin/
>
> ____________________________________________________________
>

> "It's been downhill since we stood up straight."
> --Stuart Davis, "Progress"
>
> --
> .

--

------
Win prizes from Sphere Online Publications
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[Doug Berry]

On Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:21:04 -0400, Sphere Publisher
<mas...@fantasylink.com> wrote:

>Only on tuesdays. The rest of the time I am in contact with
>the creatures of the dead who wander around Brooklyn.

Wow, you have telepathic communication with the Mets?!?

[Paul W. Cashman]

dshe...@netcom.com (Ed Dravecky III) writes:

>> |={

>Pitching ace Jim "Catfish" Hunter in a light coma

Lol! I laughed hard enough that I awakened my roommate (note the
time on the post), and it's funny enough that he, a baseball fan,
laughed too.

>The late Jimmy Durante smoking a pipe while eating a pretzel

Monty Python:
"It was the Italian film-producer, Visconte. Five points.
--And 'Italian film-producer' is NOT sufficient."

[Dante]

dan...@idt.net (Dante) wrote:

>van...@crl4.crl.com (Paul W. Cashman) wrote:
>
>>I was informed earlier today that, not only does the Hyatt not have a
>>record of this incident, the Atlanta Police don't either. I'd very
>>much like to see a copy of the incident report from either source.
>

>Paul,
>
>To be more precise, the Atlanta Police does not presently show a
>victim of an assualt by the name of "Pony White," however, this may
>not be his real name (or the name given to the Atlanta Police).
>
>Additionally, the communications logs of the two Atlanta Police
>officers working at the Hyatt Regency Atlanta during this incident do
>not show that they had any knowledge of this incident either.
>
>We have now requested confirmation from the Atlanta Police to
>determine if any call via phone was made on this incident. Please
>note that this is a manual process and may take till Monday for a
>response.
>
>Ed Kramer

Okay, I spoke too soon.

I've just received confirmation from the Atlanta Police that no "911"
calls for assistance were made relative to the incident in question.
There are only three incidents recorded during this timeframe in the
Police zone which the Hyatt Regency Atlanta is located: a motor
vehicle stop resulting in an arrest, a trespassing charge, and a
theft.

Ed Kramer

[Scott Schuler]

John Tackett <jtac...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Scott,
> Dragon-Con made available to her the programming room that Queens Own
>used during the con for a private signing. Wheather or not she used it,
>I do not know. But it was available for her use. If she changed the
>location, it was her decision not the con.
>
>John Tackett
>
>--
>***************************************************
> K'Mels Guide To Klingon Cyberspace
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1908/
>***************************************************
>
In article <33C6D5FE...@ix.netcom.com>, John Tackett
<jtac...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>Scott,
> Dragon-Con made available to her the programming room that Queens Own
>used during the con for a private signing. Wheather or not she used it,
>I do not know. But it was available for her use. If she changed the
>location, it was her decision not the con.
>
>John Tackett

Sorry for the misunderstanding<applies to you too Alan>. When I was
referring to the Queens Own Suite, I meant a suite at the Hyatt Hotel.
Furthermore, this was
a room reserved and paid for by members of the Queens Own who wanted
to hang out together. It was also cheaper<g>. This was the
midnight readings with Merecedes Lackey and Larry Dixon. You had to
come in pajamas, with a blanket and a stuffed animal. The signup sheet
was presented at day one, event one in the Queens Own track. It was
on a first come first serve basis. This was held every night at
Dragoncon.

I must admit, I felt funny walking across the lobby of the Hyatt in my
pajamas, carrying a blanket and a stuffed animal. However, compared
to what else was in the lobby, I did not draw one unusual stare<veg>.

While I have been vocal in my criticism of the way the whole situation
with Mercedes Lackey was handled, this in no way reflects how I feel
about the rest of Dragoncon. I am very grateful to Marilyn Teague,
and Electric Eggs, for their help and support. I found the dealers
room a source of joy, and spent too much money there:). Finally the
Babylon 5 track was excellent, a bonus for me. My only regret was
that my
handicap prevented me from enjoying more events. A situation, I
understand that will be changed next year. I hated the walking, but I
believe that that D*C people made the best out of a situation beyond
their control.

Scott

[John St524]

In article <5q8eqc$n...@panix2.panix.com>, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber)
writes:

>Subject: Re: Mercedes Lackey - "The Dragoncon Report"
>From: gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber)
>Date:12 Jul 1997 13:27:40 -0400
>
>In <19970711224...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
>John St524 <john...@aol.com> wrote:
>[. . .]
>: Me thinks you are full of it Mr. Dillson

>
>: In fact I know it
>

>Quoting an entire post to add these two lines is certainly a devastating
>use of rhetoric and logic. You've convincingly refuted everything Mike
>has said, no doubt about it.
>
>Please, next time show some mercy: use fewer facts, and don't provide so
>many citations -- then your interlocuter will at least stand a chance of
>not having such a crushed ego.

>--
>-- Gary Farber gfa...@panix.com
>Copyright 1997 Brooklyn, NY, USA

That is ok Gary, having read what you post<ROFLMAO> I am not too perturbed
by anything your anal retentive paranoid mind posts

John

[Stevens R. Miller]

John St524 wrote:

> (Gary Farber) writes:

> >John St524 wrote:

> >: Me thinks you are full of it Mr. Dillson
> >: In fact I know it

> >Quoting an entire post to add these two lines is certainly a devastating
> >use of rhetoric and logic.

> That is ok Gary, having read what you post<ROFLMAO> I am not too perturbed

> by anything your anal retentive paranoid mind posts

Yow! _Another_ fact-based bit of Aristotelian wisdom. Gary, how
do you sleep with yourself?

[Stevens R. Miller]

Ruth Saunders wrote:

> I've been around conventions for somewhat less time than that, but I have
> what I (very thankfully) call a 'nerd alert'. Something clicks in when I
> encounter someone like this and gives a message to my legs to leave as
> soon as possible and not come back 'til they're gone.

I've been in contact with sf and, to a lesser degree, fandom, for
most of my life. For the last five years, though, I've also been
a sole-practitioner attorney. I have noticed, despite my own
personal predisposition not to view people in psychobabbling
terms, that there is often a striking correlation among the clients
I've had, who later turn out to be, uh..., somewhat eccentric.

Some of those features have been:

1. They use the word "harassment" a great deal.
2. Money is always a problem.
3. Someone is always making undocumented threats against them.
4. Martial arts often find a way to get involved.
5. They frequently use the phrase, "I can't tell you why."
6. The FBI has been notified of something or other.
7. Their friends are gold; everyone else is crud.
8. It's rarely clear what they do for a living.
9. Paying my fee is accompanied by sobbing and epithets.
10. Asymptomatic health problems become acute on demand.

Anyone scoring five-or-more on the above list has always turned
out to be another client I deeply regret having taken. If I'd had
your "nerd alert" sensor a few years ago, I might have avoided a
number of rations of grief I was served. On the other hand, it's
been an instructive phase of my life, and I find that the above
list--or one somewhat like it--can be a useful guide in evaluating
other potential interpersonal contacts. YMMV.

[Morgan Gallagher]

In article <ED7u8...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, Ruth Saunders
<le...@cix.compulink.co.uk> writes

>I've been around conventions for somewhat less time than that, but I have
>what I (very thankfully) call a 'nerd alert'. Something clicks in when I
>encounter someone like this and gives a message to my legs to leave as

>soon as possible and not come back 'til they're gone. Thankfully, it's
>not something that I have to do often.

Gees Ruth! Any chance of hiring out this amazing 'sense' when you're
not using it?

Wish i had it...

--
Morgan

"Nunc demum intellego," dixit Winnie ille Pu. "Stultus et
delusus fui," dixit "et ursus sine ullo cerebro sum."

[Seth Breidbart]

In article <33C6BF6B...@fantasylink.com>,

Sphere Publisher <mas...@fantasylink.com> wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

Cut the garbage, OK? Usenet is a _text_ medium.

(Otherwise, I'm going to advise everyone else here just how to post so
that you don't see it. It's easy to tell browsers to go away.)

>Are you implying Michael that all of this has been falsified
>an is a lie? What exactly are you saying about Mercedes and
>her bunch.

Oh, and learn to quote properly. You should put your comments _after_
the appropriate part of the quoted material.

>Michael Dillson wrote:
>
>> I do find it unusual, however, that Pony managed to get
>> into a fight with
>> these people in the middle of the afternoon (12:30 PM by
>> you account) in
>> the middle of the Hyatt lobby, and nobody at the Hyatt
>> noticed.
>>

>> Strange, that....

What Michael is saying is that the story, as posted, does not ring
true.

You should also edit out any of the quoted material that you're not
commenting on (like .sigs).

I think you need to read news.announce.newusers before you post again.

>--

That's not the correct dividing line, either.

(27 lines of .sig removed.)

..sigs are supposed to be 4 or fewer lines. Get somebody who knows how
to count to help you, if you need to.

Seth

[Seth Breidbart]

In article <19970711224...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
John St524 <john...@aol.com> wrote:

>Seth are you as stuoid as I think you are?
>
>::::::::::reading post:::::::::::
>
>yes you are!!!!!!!!

Is that what passes for a convincing argument on your planet?

>You are living proof to the follwoing statement
>
>The experiment has begub, a million monkeys at a million typewriters...
>we call it usenet

One of us is literate (and even knows the correct version of that
statement).

Seth

[Sphere Publisher]

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Hey! As much as I find him offensive, I too have an anal
retentive paranoid mind, just like Gary.

In fact, this is a plot hatched by the same people who are
out to get Mercedes.. yeah, yeah.. thats the ticket... Hey!?
You! get away from my computer...

Did anyone notice that Gary copyrights his messages??? Does
anyone find that a little strange?

John St524 wrote:

> >Please, next time show some mercy: use fewer facts, and
> don't provide so
> >many citations -- then your interlocuter will at least
> stand a chance of
> >not having such a crushed ego.
> >--
> >-- Gary Farber
> gfa...@panix.com
> >Copyright 1997 Brooklyn, NY,
> USA

> That is ok Gary, having read what you post<ROFLMAO> I am
> not too perturbed
> by anything your anal retentive paranoid mind posts
>

> John

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title: Publisher
x-mozilla-cpt: ;0
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--------------CB7583C50AC435E627C040EA--

[Sphere Publisher]

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I have attempted to tell the program everything I can.

You might try to stop being a jerk.

Gary Farber wrote:

> You might, incidentally, want to stop posting in MIME
> format; many
> newsreaders can't handle it, and it's inappropriate for
> Usenet.
>

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x-mozilla-cpt: ;0
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[Sphere Publisher]

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I don't think the issue is faith here. Just because you are
ill informed and have this shadowy feeling that the whole
world is out to get you, doesn't mean that its necessarily
true. I think you have been living in Brooklyn too much my
friend. It would be good to get out in the country and
realize that being a little bit trusting, a little bit
polite might do you some good.

Or we could all become like you and believe that Mercedes
has staged all of this, beat up Pony herself JUST so you
could get pissed off and have something else to ramble about
in your spare time between harassing the kids accross the
street and peeking through the girls bathroom window...

Gary Farber wrote:

> I neither believe nor disbelieve. I now understand,
> however, that I/we
> are presented with vague assertions, and asked to take
> them on faith. I
> accept that the assertions may be completely valid, or may
> not, and I am
> presently being given insufficient information to make a
> further
> evaluation. I therefore reserve judgement.
>

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title: Publisher
x-mozilla-cpt: ;0
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--------------32FBD3B45AEA85D491707BDF--

[Sphere Publisher]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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No, i think its versaTILITY? Like to be versatile?

My spell checker says its a word. I could be wrong though..
I have been known to make up words in the past that pop up
into my insane head. Has something to do with the water here
in Brooklyn.

Adam M. Lipkin wrote:

> Sphere Publisher (mas...@fantasylink.com) wrote:
> : Perhaps you should look up the word versitility! Or

> perhaps
> : you know someting about her that we don't?
>

> I just looked up "versatitily" in three dictionaries, to
> no avail. I also
> can't find "versatity," which was the word I was talking
> about in my
> previous post.
>
> --Adam

>
> Adam Lipkin ali...@emory.edu
> http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~alipkin/
>
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> "It's been downhill since we stood up straight."
> --Stuart Davis, "Progress"
>
> --
> .

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[Sphere Publisher]

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Ed, I respect you greatly. However, I am a little confused
about this, mainly because I was not aware that assult
complaints were public record. However, something is
starting to look a little strange here -- and I do _NOT_
believe that it is at Mercedes bequest.

Have you spoken to Mercedes about this? I am starting to
think that someone MIGHT be making this up to defame her
name, and this could be false (Could Gary be actually right?
Arghh..)

Dante wrote:

> To be more precise, the Atlanta Police does not presently
> show a
> victim of an assualt by the name of "Pony White," however,
> this may
> not be his real name (or the name given to the Atlanta
> Police).
>
> Additionally, the communications logs of the two Atlanta
> Police
> officers working at the Hyatt Regency Atlanta during this
> incident do
> not show that they had any knowledge of this incident
> either.

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title: Publisher
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--------------AFA88F8DF5DB4601F3AA03D7--

[Sphere Publisher]

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--------------2CC952F307D71F64F509EFB2

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Oh well, I guess instead of addressing the point, you go on
attack again. You really are a jerk and a total and complete
shame to our people.

Gary Farber wrote:

> Perhaps you might like to actually correctly spell the
> word you are
> reaching for. There is no such word as "versitility" in
> English, which
> makes looking it up rather difficult. You also spelled it
> as "versitity"
> the first time, which also is a non-existent word.
>

> [. . . .]

> --
> -- Gary Farber
> gfa...@panix.com
> Copyright 1997 Brooklyn, NY,
> USA

--

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--------------2CC952F307D71F64F509EFB2--

[Mary Kay Kare]

In article <ED7u8...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, le...@cix.compulink.co.uk
("Ruth Saunders") wrote:
> and little else. I have gained a general idea that as a convention guest
> Ms. Lackey may be very difficult indeed but that's never likely to affect
> me, after certain experiences with actor's ex-wives (a story tellable only
> in person) I am steering *very* clear of getting involved with conventions
> with guests.
>
Oooo. Sounds like a great story. If you'll tell it, I'll tell mine about
the famous fantasy artist and his wifethebitch.

MK

Mary Kay Kare
Compuserve's Team SF/F

[Ray Radlein]

Ed Dravecky III wrote:
>
> Ray Radlein (r...@learnlink.emory.edu) wrote:
> > Oh, you know; those really obscure ones that no one can quite
> > interpret, so they mean pretty much whatever the author wishes
> > them to mean. To wit:
> >
> > "[*%
>
> Conan O'Brien after the David Bowie interview
[...]
> A Time-Life operator with a beehive hairdo
[...]
> Evander Holyfield late in the third round of the Tyson fight
[...]

> Pitching ace Jim "Catfish" Hunter in a light coma

[...]

> The late Jimmy Durante smoking a pipe while eating a pretzel

Okay, so that's what they represent -- but what do they *mean*? :-)

- Ray R.

--
*********************************************************************
"What are we going to do tonight, Brain?"
"The same thing we do every night, Pinky - try to RULE THE SEVAGRAM!"

Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
homepage coming soon! wooo, wooo.
*********************************************************************

[David E Romm]

In article <33C888...@learnlink.emory.edu>, Ray Radlein
<r...@learnlink.emory.edu> wrote:

> Okay, so that's what they represent -- but what do they *mean*? :-)

They mean 'squat'.

Oh wait... no they don't.
--
Shockwave radio: Science Fiction/Science Fact/Weirdness Unbound
http://www.visi.com/~romm
Saturday 7/19 6pm: The 1990 Minicon Opening Ceremonies

[Seth Breidbart]

In article <33C8347A...@fantasylink.com>,
Sphere Publisher <mas...@fantasylink.com> wrote:

(7 lines of MIME-garbage omitted.)

>I have attempted to tell the program everything I can.

That says a lot about you, probably more than you realize.

>You might try to stop being a jerk.

You might try getting a real newsreader.

>Gary Farber wrote:
>
>> You might, incidentally, want to stop posting in MIME
>> format; many
>> newsreaders can't handle it, and it's inappropriate for
>> Usenet.

(27 more lines of improperly delineated .sig removed.)

It's getting to be time when I start posting messages that lart your
newsreader.

Seth

[Stevens R. Miller]

> I've heard from pony today, and just wanted to say that he's ended up
> with two fractured ribs for his trouble. And, the guy went to court,
> and they let him off with 'time served,' meaning he spent the night in
> jail and is now walking the streets again.

Where did this arraignment take place? The minutes of the
proceedings should be available from the court reporter, for
about a hundred bucks. The charges and disposition are in
the public record, with the defendant's name, so that info
will be free.

I can tell you that in Manhattan, where we have one of the
busiest criminal court systems in the world, a physical assault
resulting in broken bones would not be disposed at arraignment
over the objections of the victim. Other systems, moving at a
more relaxed pace, often proceed against the defendant even when
the victim refuses to cooperate.

Of course, if all parties agree to a plea bargain, that's the
end of the case. Did that happen here? If so, the conviction
will still be a part of the public record.

[Dave the Inverted]

On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:54:31 -0400, Sphere Publisher
<mas...@fantasylink.com> wrote:

>Did anyone notice that Gary copyrights his messages??? Does
>anyone find that a little strange?

I don't find it strange at all. After all, last time I checked, _all_
posts were copyrighted, whether so labeled or not. What? You mean
you didn't know that? And you're a publisher. Uh-huh.

Dav2.718

Dave the Inverted
inv...@primenet.com
Speaking strictly for myself

[Elspeth Kovar Burgess]

Zev Sero wrote:

<snip>

> Oh, and fix your newsreader before posting again. MIME texts
> are not appropriate on this newsgroup, and the text you are
> quoting should appear before your comments, not after. And
> edit your quotes.

For what it's worth, I was recently informed that an excess of headers
was at the top of a recent e-mail I sent. I don't know if they're also
showing up in my posts -- could someone let me know how this looks? It
appears that "Sphere Publisher" and I are both using the new Netscape
Communicator, and this may be the source of the problem, rather than
willful ignorance. I hadn't realized that Communicator might be that
incompatible. As I said, please let me know how this appears to other
readers.

Of course, it may also be because he attaches an 'Address Card' to all
of his posts, and few newsreaders can read those.

If I *am* posting a lot of excess garbage (as opposed to the usual
amount) I sincerely apologize and will try to correct the problem as
quickly as possible. I really do not want to switch away from
Communicator, but if it's causing problems I may have to.

Elspeth

[Ruth Saunders]

> In article <5q4fm4$r...@panix2.panix.com>, gfa...@panix.com (Gary
> Farber) wrote:
> > I've now read it; thank you for the pointer.

Ruth Saunders said:
> I haven't, I've only been able to read what's been posted on this
> newsgroup

To add:
Thanks to some kind person I have now read Mercedes Lackey's article from
the webpage.

> for one) but from that I agree with Gary (Farber) that all I've seen is:
> > a vague general assertion that there have been threats,

And that's all I still see. But one final comment: were I in the position
of the organisers of a convention who find out that one of my guests was
subject to threats bad enough to be taken seriously by law enforcers, I
wouldn't be trying to persuade them to come, I'd be trying to persuade
them *not* to come! Having said that, losing your headline guest is a
major pain in the neck and I can understand why the Dragon*Con organisers
would want to avoid that.

Conventions I've been involved with have had a policy of trying to find
out if the guests we invite are subject to the attentions of so-called
stalkers, mainly so that if said stalkers apply for a membership, we can
refuse them. The last convention I was involved with had a written policy
that we would try to do this, but the guests wouldn't divulge names - if
the guest won't co-operate, what are convention organisers to do? :-)

Ruth S.
le...@cix.compulink.co.uk

[Mark Fingerman]

Sphere Publisher wrote:

> I have attempted to tell the program everything I can.
>

> You might try to stop being a jerk.
>

> Gary Farber wrote:
>
> > You might, incidentally, want to stop posting in MIME
> > format; many
> > newsreaders can't handle it, and it's inappropriate for
> > Usenet.

Gary tries to give you a simple piece of advice about making your
postings more reader friendly. And He is the jerk? There is a step in
your logic that I missed. Maybe it was done in mime?

Mark Fingerman

[Paul W. Cashman]

dil...@mindspring.com (Michael Dillson) writes:

>have not read many of Ms. Lackey's books. She seems to think that, just
>beause a group of fans has named themselves after one of the evil
>organizations in one of her series, that they are a serious threat.

--And if I read between the lines here correctly (that this shadowy
group of fans has named themselves Guardians), it's actually an
organization of "good" people in one of her series.

Signed,
--Someone wondering how hard it is for their ISP to change their userid

[Ray Radlein]

Elspeth Kovar Burgess wrote:
>
> For what it's worth, I was recently informed that an excess of
> headers was at the top of a recent e-mail I sent. I don't know if
> they're also showing up in my posts -- could someone let me know how
> this looks?

The headers look okay to me. Of course, I'm *also* using Netscape,
albeit version 3.01.

I have resisted switching to 4.0 because of all the complaints I have
heard about inappropriate posting format; did you have to do anything
special to have yours *not* post in MIME format?

[Zev Sero]

Pesach wrote:

> Just because you are ill informed and have this shadowy
> feeling that the whole world is out to get you, doesn't
> mean that its necessarily true.

Given the title of this thread, it seems to me that we
should rather heed the Shina'in proverb: Just because you
think that there's an enemy behind every bush doesn't mean
that you're wrong.
--
Zev Sero It's a Jewish thing; if you have a
zs...@idt.net bit of time, I'll explain it to you.

[Alison Scott]

Elspeth Kovar Burgess <EBur...@radix.net> wrote:

>If I *am* posting a lot of excess garbage (as opposed to the usual
>amount) I sincerely apologize and will try to correct the problem as
>quickly as possible. I really do not want to switch away from
>Communicator, but if it's causing problems I may have to.

As far as I can tell, you're a model of how someone can use Netscape
without being a public health hazard. No unlikely MIME or HTML, no
900-character lines without word wrap, just ordinary, fine, text
posts.

--
Alison Scott ali...@fuggles.demon.co.uk

Now with added cobwebs: www.fuggles.demon.co.uk

[Kelly Lockhart]

Dante wrote:
> In a follow up fax, signed by Ms. Lackey and Mr. Dixon on 7/10/97,
> they continue "Ever since the unprovoked ambush and assault on Pony
> While by two people wearing Dragoncon convention badges in the Hyatt
> elevator lobby, which resulted in two broken ribs on him and the
> arrest and jailing of one of the attackers by Atlanta PD, we continue
> to take this matter seriously."
>
> Mr. Pony White presented himself as "High Flight Personal Security"
> according to his business card, and was represented by Ms. Lackey and
> Mr. Dixon as such at the convention. Please note that I cannot state
> that the event in question did not occur, only that we are unable to
> find any evidence of such from any of the sources indicated.

No incident report from con security, hotel security, the Atlanta Police
Department, and a check of 911 calls from that area during that time
also showed nothing even remotely connected to the "incident" Misty
describes.

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

--
Kelly Lockhart
Chattanooga, TN

This message is posted using a Spam-free format that alters my email
address. To reply, simply remove the "_" symbol from in front of the
address in the "Reply-To" portion of the message header.

[John Tackett]

Scott Schuler wrote:

> >dil...@mindspring.com (Michael Dillson) wrote:
>
> >
> >From the Operations Scheduling for Dragon*Con 1997:
> >
> >Saturday, June 28, 1997, 19:00 - Inforum Conference I
> >Private Queen's Own Autographings Session
> >DO NOT PUBLISH. Access restricted to Queen's Own members.
> >
> >This, as well as two other events in another track were restricted
> access
> >and really torqued me when I saw them.
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Mike Dillson Atlanta, GA dil...@mindspring.com
> >All content copyright by writer and may not used without permission.
>
> Well, They were open to all members. the fact that some people at the
>
> staff of Dragoncon took it upon themselves to post this is another
> matter. Any events that were posted in the Dragoncon guide, were open
>
> to ALL members. The fact that Queens Own had scheduled private events
>
> for their own members is another matter. I hope you see the
> difference.
>
> I repeat, events that were listed in the Dragoncon guide, that ran
> under the Queens Own track, were opened to all members of Dragoncon.
> The fact that you had privy to certain confidential information, is
> another matter. Feel free to distort all you want, the truth is out
> there:).
>
> Scott
> Never Explain Yourself, Your Friends Do Not Need It, And
> Your Enemies Will Never Believe You Anyway.
> Never Explain Yourself, Your Friends Do Not Need It, And
> Your Enemies Will Never Believe You Anyway.

Scott,
No distortion intended. You are correct, all QO programing in the
program was open to the public. But at the request of Morgan, the QO
panel director, there was a signing session that was closed to all but
members of QO. This is the event we are refering to. This event was to
be held in the QO program room at the Inforum. This room was paid for by
Dragon-Con.
See, no distortion, it was that you did not have all the facts
available to you. Morgan, as program director, requested, and was given
this event.

John

--
***************************************************
K'Mels Guide To Klingon Cyberspace
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1908/
***************************************************

[Joseph W. Casey]

Mark Fingerman (fing...@mindspring.com) writes:
>
> Gary tries to give you a simple piece of advice about making your
> postings more reader friendly. And He is the jerk? There is a step in
> your logic that I missed. Maybe it was done in mime?
> Mark Fingerman

Ah, so this would be the reason that everyone hates Mimes. I understand
completely now. <G>

Joseph W. Casey

--
Cmdr Makin sutai Cheghjihtah-Kasara | Col. Makin sutai-Cheghjihtah-Kasara MK
Head of Security, | ra'wI', Mailed Glove Squadron
Ontario Sector, KIDC | Klingon Assault Group/KANADA
Sgt Mjr J.W. 'RoughRider' Casey 467th Sqdn, 349th Air Wing, 59th Ready Reserve

[Scott Schuler]

Obviously someone is lying through their teeth. I choose to believe
the accounts of Mercedes Lackey, Larry Dixon, Pony and the rest of the
High Fligh staff. I truly find it hard to believe that people are not
only questioing the authenticity of Pony White's injuries, but the
nature of the threats themselves.

Many of the accounts posted here by myself, and others have been
distorted beyond recognition. When I start seeing posts from people
whom I respect, parroting these distortions as fact, it is time for me
to bow out of this news group. No, I am not calling the FBI, The
Atlanta Police Department to verify anything. The funny thing is that
I don't believe the Dragoncon staff have attempted to either.
Furthermore, just as they don't accept the words of myself and other
posters, I don't believe theirs.

I will take this one step further, logically, if I made up a
ficticious police case number, or mentioned a fake FBI name, you would
have no way of knowing the truth. Quid Pro Quo, I have no way of
knowing that you have checked with the Hyatt staff, or the Atlanta
Policie Department.

Aside from the fiasco surrounding the security arrangements for Ms
Lackey, and the breach of contract, I had enjoyed Dragoncon97. Had the
staff of Dragoncon acted like the professionals I had thought they
were, I might have even come back. The staff I encountered at
Dragoncon<lower echelon> and the Star Guard security people, were
helpful, courteous, and caring. Too bad I cannot same the same for
some of the posters here.

Scott Schuler

I refuse to get into a battle of
wits with an unarmed person

[Paul King]

On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Mark Fingerman wrote:

> So when you think convention security carries nightsticks, weapons, and
> handcuffs, you demonstrate a lack of understanding. I hope this
> clarifies the issue for you.

In most of the US, anyone designated as security ends up working
under very tight constraints as to what they can do in terms of
securing. Constraints which prevent them from doing much if anything
to help someone under threat. Which is why you get someone who has a
license to actually perform those services, like, a bodyguard.
Asking dragoncon security to do bodyguarding would be silly.
"Excuse me sir, please do not assault the writer. Sir, please stop
that. It is against convention policy for you to assault the guests.
Sir, please give me your badge, and leave the building."

--
Paul

Now accepting applications for a good sig line.

[Alan Woodford]

sav...@worldnet.att.net (Scott Schuler) wrote:

---snip----

>I refuse to get into a battle of
>wits with an unarmed person

So you don't like the idea of a fair fight then?

Alan Woodford

-----
"We came here to eat bananas and kick ass, and we're right out of bananas!"
Captain Simian
-------

[Stevens R. Miller]

Paul King wrote:

> In most of the US, anyone designated as security ends up working
> under very tight constraints as to what they can do in terms of
> securing. Constraints which prevent them from doing much if anything
> to help someone under threat. Which is why you get someone who has a
> license to actually perform those services, like, a bodyguard.

You may have this backwards. In New York, there is no license
for being a "bodyguard." There are, however, license requirements
for anyone working as a patrol or watch, or providing a general
guard service.

[Morgan QOC]

I'm going to try to do this again. I've been dumped about three times
from the AOL server, which I'm using simply because I cannot get my other
ISP to work tonight. SIGH.

This is Morgan --- M.I.Morey --- the Director for Queen's Own Collegia
(which is NOT a part of Queen's Own, Misty's fandom; we were merely given
permission to use the name, with COLLEGIA added on to tell the difference)
at Dragon*Con 97.
I do NOT want to start more flames, but I can clear up a few things. I'm
what you might say is a "primary source," since I was there, and the QOC
programming track was my responsibility.

Firstly, since there seemed to be some concern over the use of D*Con
subsidized (sp?) function space for "private" activities.... Let me say
this: Since the first QOC was sponsored at D*Con, there have been certain
activities which took place in the function room which were not
necessarily open to the general public, i.e., they were not advertised in
the program booklet. The "Dinner With Our Guests" was set up in 1997 the
same as it was set up in previous years. The QOC group set up a banquet
in either hotel or restaurant wherein a limited number of people could
have dinner with the guests. (Guests, incidently, which QOC paid for and
provided, not D*Con. QOC put up HALF that $1000 for Misty's appearance, a
fact which has been totally ignored in all this. I will have the
cancelled $500 check in my hands within the month, for those who would
like proof. Last year, QOC paid for Josepha Sherman's airfare to and from
Atlanta, with D*Con providing only her room. In 1995, Mark Shepherd paid
his own way down, AND paid for his own room.) This year, we held the
dinner in a banquet room, and hired the Hyatt to put on a buffet for us.
This was private, but NOT in the function room.

What were originally intended to be "private" functions were thrown open
when Misty declined to be part of D*Con main programming. These were
originally to enhance her appearance at readings and autograph sessions
for the convention; a chance for those who couldn't make the regular
panels/readings/autograph sessions to get to meet Misty. When she "left"
the convention, we made public announcements at every chance we got to let
as many people as possible know she was still there, and STILL signing
autographs, etc. We had daily fliers listing the autograph sessions, as
well. No, they were NOT on the main programming list. But, I question
this: If holding a private party or autograph session is not favored by
D*Con, why then is it only questioned NOW? For three years running we've
held these with our guests, and up until now, no one has ever questioned a
thing. I even asked, back in 1995, if this was permitted, and was told
outright it was okay. I RE-asked Ms. Regina Kirby this year when I
submitted my program schedule to her, and there was no disfavorable
response. It is my understanding other fandom tracks hold similar things;
unless I'm mistaken, that is. And, if I have "broken" some rule about
this, please accept my apology; no one ever told me differently.

Several of the "private" functions were removed from the QOC function
space to the QOC sutie. This suite was reserved by myself, and paid for
by those who shared it --- my QOC staff and associates. The parties
originally scheduled for the function room were moved there. The Midnight
Readings were held there, as they had been scheduled from the beginning to
be held there. Again, these were meant to supplant readings by Misty in
the main programming, but were altered when she "left." We made public
announcements about these readings at most of the panels on Thursday &
Friday, and passed around sign-up sheets for all three nights. Anyone who
was at the QOC panels had an opportunity to sign-up, and the number of
people was limited to 25 because of the size of the suite. We actually
had between 30-35 people each night, as those who came to us and asked
were seldom turned away. (And yes, her security people were there to
check on things throughout each reading.)

Let's see... what else.

QOC was reported to be "members only." This was simply not true, and the
announcement in Sunday's DAILY DRAGON was incorrect. Sadly, I didn't find
time to get to DAILY DRAGON to make announcements that Misty would be at
QOC panels/activities, and they were open to anyone who paid their D*Con
membership. THERE IS NO SEPARATE MEMBERSHIP TO QUEEN'S OWN COLLEGIA.
Period. At no time was this EVER expressed by ANY of the QOC staff, or
myself. If this was said in my presence, I corrected the person
immediately. As I corrected people who emailed me about QOC during the
months preceding the convention. NEVER has any QOC person made the
statement QOC was a private function. QOC was a fandom track of
programming open to ANYone holding a D*Con membership. The DAILY DRAGON
was plain and simply wrong. But, anything in writing is gospel to many,
and once Sunday's article on why Misty "left" (which she did not do) was
printed, there was no use in anyone trying to change people's minds. The
only damage control we could do was to try and let as many people know as
possible that the panels were open.

There won't be another QOC at D*Con, but not for the reason many may
suspect. Before D*Con 97 even began, I'd already made plans NOT to be the
Director next year. I've suffered health problems, and buried my mother
prior to the con, and I was, frankly, tired. Burned out. Like a few
other directors. I told this to Ed either just before or during the
convention, so it was no surprise. This was MY choice, and although I
appreciate what D*Con has done for QOC, Ed knew from the beginning I
intended to take QOC into its own convention. Eventually. Someday when I
regain my equilibrium and get over the tremendous loss of my mother.
Incidently, when my mother's health failed in March, Ed was one of the
first people I called, to let him know I probably wouldn't be at D*Con.
Only mother's death allowed me to be there, and I really wish I'd followed
my first inclinations and NOT gone. It was a tremendous strain on me and
my resources.

Regarding the "alleged" attack on Pony White. I, personally, knew nothing
about this until Tuesday, 02 July. I have no proof EITHER WAY, and choose
not to discuss it. I don't have the facts from either side; all I have is
say-so from both, and if there's an investigation into this, then I don't
think it should be bandied across the 'Net. Besides, it's NOT my
business. Pony is a personal friend, and I regret he was injured. That's
all I'm saying on it.

The Bodyguards provided by D*Con were professionals. It was my
understanding D*Con only provided ONE Star-Guard, and that Vince was
paying the second man from his own pocket. I was TOLD (and this was not
confirmed by me; nor will it be, as it's simply none of my business) the
second guard was paid for by Misty. I do know that both men were
courteous and professional in all their dealins with me and my staff, as
well as the fans. Since my room was readily available, it was used as a
"staging area". And, yes, it was checked inside and out every time Misty
was in there. We didn't enter --- not even ME, whose room it was --- went
inside until Vince or John gave the "okay." Security was handled quite
well by these two men, and I applaud them for a job well done, and give
credit to D*Con for retaining two of the most professional bodyguards I've
ever encountered.

And, to squelch a rumor ... No bodyguard quit. Misty did NOT use them as
"gofers" --- in fact, we have pictures of Misty serving THEM pizza and
cokes. <G>

I'm not here to flame anyone. I'm only here to tell the facts. The
"truth," so to speak. The truth *I* know, from my personal observances
and experiences. I made up the QOC programming track, scheduled the
panels to enhance Misty's convention panels. Sadly, this didn't work the
way I'd hoped. I really regret the fact that what was originally
scheduled as special "perks" for QOC attendees has been misdirected as a
means to isolate Misty from her fans. This was NEVER the intention.

Sigh. My only comment on D*Con is: "It was the best of times; it was the
worst of times."

I'll answer questions, but I won't try to justify anything said or done by
anyone other than myself. I am responsible for myself, only, and I
sincerely hope I've managed to clear up SOME misconceptions --- at least
about QOC and my own involvement in D*Con.

Thank you for your patience in reading what ended up a long and
complicated missive.

Morgan
Former Director,
Queen's Own Collegia @ D*Con

[Ed Dravecky III]

Morgan QOC (morg...@aol.com) wrote:
<heavy snipping>

> QOC put up HALF that $1000 for Misty's appearance, a fact
> which has been totally ignored in all this. I will have the
> cancelled $500 check in my hands within the month, for those
> who would like proof.

<lots more snipping>

While I commend the QOC for putting up $500 towards Ms. Lackey's
appearance, I must question the assertion that tihs is "half" of
what it must have cost to bring her to Dragon*Con. Didn't D*C
provide multiple first-class airfares, two hotel rooms, a pair
of professional bodyguards, per diem for her "non-professional"
bodyguard, AND the $1000 "speaking fee"?

If I were running a con (which, thankfully, I am not at the
moment) I would be upset if a major guest that cost me (and the
fans buying the memberships) quite a bit of money and time
decided at the last second to restrict herself to a *private*
function room *away* from the main convention that *limited*
attendance to 25-35 people.

Perhaps, in the future, Ms. Lackey's fan should host as "Queen's
Own Convention" at some secure location and shoulder all the
costs themselves. I have no doubt that THIS would prove very
instructive to all concerned. I would be VERY interested to
read *those* con reports.
--
Ed Dravecky III =<*>= This message was part of a complex plot
dshe...@netcom.com = to take over the world. (B5 S5 TNT WH!)

[Jay Denebeim]

In article <33ce1036...@news.atl.mindspring.com>,
Michael A. Dillson <dillson@_mindspring.com> wrote:
>Can you give us the names of the individuals who assaulted Pony?
>
>Can you explain why the Hyatt management and security staff are completely
>oblivious to this event?
>
>Can you tell me why the two police men (one in the lobby) on duty at the
>Hyatt during this time period have no knowledge of the event?
>
>Can you explain to me why there is no record of a 911 call involving an
>assault during the time in question in Zone 5?
>
>Can you tell me why the police precinct can find no assault report taking
>place in the Hyatt at all?
>
>Can you explain why we were told that the assailant was released with "time
>served" at his arraignment, but no record of this arraignment seems to
>exist?

These are pretty serious allogations you're making as well Michael. I
do see quite a bit of finger pointing going on here. Perhaps a
neutral third party could verify the claims?

It seems pretty clear that the claims are fairly easily verifyable.

Jay
--
* Jay Denebeim, Moderator, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: b5...@deepthot.cary.nc.us *
* moderator contact address: b5mod-...@deepthot.cary.nc.us *
* personal contact address: dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us *

[Doug Berry]

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:26:06 GMT, sav...@worldnet.att.net (Scott
Schuler) wrote:

>Obviously someone is lying through their teeth. I choose to believe
>the accounts of Mercedes Lackey, Larry Dixon, Pony and the rest of the
>High Fligh staff. I truly find it hard to believe that people are not
>only questioing the authenticity of Pony White's injuries, but the
>nature of the threats themselves.

So the Hyatt staff, the Atlanta PD, and all of Dragoncon are involved
in a Conspiracy against Mercedes Lackey... you didn't happen to talk
to a guy named Roland about this, did you?

>Many of the accounts posted here by myself, and others have been
>distorted beyond recognition. When I start seeing posts from people
>whom I respect, parroting these distortions as fact, it is time for me
>to bow out of this news group. No, I am not calling the FBI, The
>Atlanta Police Department to verify anything. The funny thing is that
>I don't believe the Dragoncon staff have attempted to either.
>Furthermore, just as they don't accept the words of myself and other
>posters, I don't believe theirs.

Cut and run. A very old tactic. So, you don't belive that Ed Kramer
et al have followed up on this, but Ghu forbid that you check on it
yourself. I am positively blinded by your aura of purity.

>I will take this one step further, logically, if I made up a
>ficticious police case number, or mentioned a fake FBI name, you would
>have no way of knowing the truth. Quid Pro Quo, I have no way of
>knowing that you have checked with the Hyatt staff, or the Atlanta
>Policie Department.

If you were to make up a name or report number, one phone call would
reveal the fraud. The police do not investigate an assult and battery
without assigning a case number, and the investigating officer will
give the victim his business card. When the incident happens at an
event like a convention or trade show, the police will contact the
facility manager and the organizers of the event in their search for
witnesses. Evidently, the Atlanta PD did none of this.. either they
are a collection of Ketstone Kops who haven't mastered the most basic
of police procedures, or there is something wrong with the story.

--
+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dbe...@hooked.net |
| http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/ |
|---------------------------------------------|
| "Those wish to seem learned to fools, |
| seem fools to the learned." |
| -Marcus Fabius Quintilianus |
+---------------------------------------------+

[Morgan]

Ed Dravecky III wrote:

> While I commend the QOC for putting up $500 towards Ms. Lackey's
> appearance, I must question the assertion that tihs is "half" of
> what it must have cost to bring her to Dragon*Con. Didn't D*C
> provide multiple first-class airfares, two hotel rooms, a pair
> of professional bodyguards, per diem for her "non-professional"
> bodyguard, AND the $1000 "speaking fee"?

I stand corrected. QOC put up half the $1000 required by Ms. Lackey in
order for her to appear. Exactly what this $1000 was to go for, I do
not really know. When this was first broached (bringing Misty to
D*Con), I relayed the "terms" which I had been given by Misty to Ed. He
and I came to an agreement that QOC would put up half the $1000. This
is the extent of QOC's responsibility, actually, albeit not the extent
of how much the programming track staff members and anonymous donors put
out in order to present the best possible "show" for the fans. Personal
debts for QOC this past June were much more than I anticipated, esp.
since I was rather strapped financially, but I'd made a committment and
I was going to do my best to uphold my end of the bargain.

> If I were running a con (which, thankfully, I am not at the
> moment) I would be upset if a major guest that cost me (and the
> fans buying the memberships) quite a bit of money and time
> decided at the last second to restrict herself to a *private*
> function room *away* from the main convention that *limited*
> attendance to 25-35 people.

The Function Room for QOC was not "away from the main convention". No,
it was very present in the Inforum, and was never closed off to ANY
con-goer. The private readings "restricted to 25 people" were not held
in the function room, but in a private suite. Any con-goer who attended
QOC panels was able to sign up for one of three nights for those private
readings. We did not advertise them in the main program for logistical
reasons; there was no way to cram any more people in that suite than we
did. As it was, no one was turned away; if someone not signed up asked,
they were allowed to attend --- providing they came attired in pajamas,
carried a pillow and accompanied by a stuffed animal.

> Perhaps, in the future, Ms. Lackey's fan should host as "Queen's
> Own Convention" at some secure location and shoulder all the
> costs themselves. I have no doubt that THIS would prove very
> instructive to all concerned. I would be VERY interested to
> read *those* con reports.

This is already in the works. It was, quite bluntly, my concept from
the beginning, and the reason for the first three QOCs. Ed Kramer knew
this, and at one time, even offered assistance to me in negotiating with
hotels in Orlando. (Under the circumstances, I do not plan to hold him
to this offer. <G>) Piggy-backing with Dragon*Con was so I could learn
aspects of putting on conventions with which I was unfamiliar --- i.e.,
setting up programming, workshops, etc. (Previously, I'd worked in
registration, set up, con ops and elsewhere in small, local cons.) It
was ever my intention to take QOC "out on its own," a fact which was
made clear from the beginning when I first spoke with Ed at Oasis in
Orlando in 1994, and he suggested a Lackey track of fan programming.

Details for the Lackey convention are still in the planning stages, but
this is NOT something which came up after this year's D*Con. It came up
about 6 years ago on GEnie, and when the first one fell through, many of
us decided we'd wait a few years, then piggy-back with a large con, and
learn what we could. Then we'd try again. That's the history of QOC in
a nutshell, but never was it intended to be anything more than what it
was advertised as --- a place where fans of Misty could meet, enjoy some
panels, have fun, etc. In this respect, I consider QOC a success, and
hope I can do as well as an independant convention as we have done at
D*Con. And, thanks to Ed and D*Con, I have learned a lot.

Morgan
@{--,'----

[Stevens R. Miller]

Jim Partridge wrote:

> Just to chime in from another fairly busy court system, Alameda County
> in California (you know, Oakland?), I wouldn't really expect to see a
> disposition of any assault charge this quickly.

Certainly not where broken bones were alleged, and I think
there'd be some interest in pursuing a case where the
defendant was found _handcuffed_ in a public place, just on
novelty value alone.

> ...I could even see the defendant out of custody
> awaiting a disposition hearing, although if there was a weapon
> involved I would expect a fairly substantial bail, and then only on a
> first offense. (I don't recall a weapon from the prior posts, but
> then I didn't save any of them.)

IIRC, the alleged victim reports having subdued two attackers,
one of whom had some kind of baton. I agree that a weapon would
cry out for bail, as would operating in concert with another, as
would the implied crime of conspiracy, as would the stalking,
and... gee, this would be a more serious matter than I thought!

> Owning your own law office: the crock at the end of the rainbow.

Brother, don't I know it.

[Ted Rosenberg]

Gary Farber wrote:

Gary Farber wrote:
>
> In <33C6C018...@fantasylink.com> Sphere Publisher
> <mas...@fantasylink.com> wrote:
> : This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> : --------------717F9892A98F6B712B561BD3
> : Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> : Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> : Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> : Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>
> : Perhaps you should look up the word versitility! Or perhaps
> : you know someting about her that we don't?
>
> Perhaps you might like to actually correctly spell the word you are
> reaching for. There is no such word as "versitility" in English, which
> makes looking it up rather difficult. You also spelled it as "versitity"
> the first time, which also is a non-existent word.
>
> Not intending to make a spelling flame, but simply to try to help, perhaps
> you don't notice that almost all of your posts are riddled with these
> strange misspellings, solecisims, and grammatical confusions, which
> affects people's perceptions of your posts and your person. You might
> want to take that into account when considering your own perceptions of
> how people consistently react to you on Usenet, in every newsgroup you go
> to, no matter that they never heard of you before.
>
> Constantly declaring your interlocuters to either be Nazis,
> "anti-semetes," or having "lost their mind" is also not a credibility
> helper.
>
> HTH.
>
> [. . . .]
> --
> -- Gary Farber gfa...@panix.com
> Copyright 1997 Brooklyn, NY, USA

We dyslexics do NOT find a person with this type of attitude amusing or
even fair, and there are a lot more of us around than you think,
PARTICULARLY on the Internet (estimates run as high as 20%). It also
tends to make us less likely to have any respect for anything you say -
right OR wrong. Insensivety from someone who can't even figure out how
to turn off MIME encoding for single-part messages.

[John St524]

Since Scott has bowed out of this news group, I will answer the question
for him.

He stated tha t all events listed in the Dragoncon guide were open to the
public. So why do you and others keep insisting that this was not the
case. He NEVER said
anything about private events. He said "all events listed in the dragon
guide were open to all members of Dragoncon". You and others keep harping
on this. Please reread his posts. He has stuck to the facts.

John

P. S. I have been forwarding these posts to him.

[p...@sadow.org]

Hello,
I am not affiliated with D*Con, QO or Misty. I am simply a fan who
attended D*Con and happens to like Misty's books. I want to state for/to
Morgan, that I enjoyed the QOC events that I attended very much. I wish I
could have attended more of them, but there was simply too much that I wanted
to do at the con.

However, to air some comments from a "common" fan, I would like to state the
following:

At no time, was _I_ turned away from a QOC event. I planned my attendence
such that I got to all panels that I wanted to go to before their starting
time. I saw other people turned away, but personally, I don't see how any
more people could have fit in the room. There was generally people standing
up everywhere the fire marshal's rules would let them and crowds sitting
on the floor. I never saw the guards turning anyone away before the room
got really crowded. Often, if people left during the program, they would
let a few others in. This didn't seem to me to be any worse than coming
up to a room that was obviously packed and had people standing 8 deep at
the door. I was never asked if I was a QO member.

Morgan, Misty, Larry, & company were very verbal in insisting that just
because they had problems with the convention itself, they did not think
that us, the fans, should suffer. I never felt "isolated" from them and
they seemed to really enjoy talking with us during the panels.

Misty may not have attended the official signings, but she certainly signed
a *lot* of stuff. At three separate panels, she brought in book covers,
posters, & other stuff and simply signed constantly all during the panel.
I don't even collect autographs and I am never willing to stand in line for
them, but I left the convention with *four* different signed items.

The readings that were done offsite, were announced during at least two
of the QOC panels that I attended. I can guarantee that they were not
limited to QO members, because I went to one of them. Several other QO
sponsered events were mentioned and I found everyone quite willing to tell
me where & when even though I wasn't a QO member. It would have been silly
to advertise small events like the readings in the convention paperwork
anyway, with a convention this big, advertising something that can hold
25 people each night for 3 nights just doesn't make sense.

I did find it to be a shame, that no one, on either side of the issue, had
time to inform other panels where Misty was to appear that she had pulled
out of the main convention. One of the Pern panels I attended originally
had Misty as a panelist, and the other two people were holding up the panel,
waiting for her to show up when I updated them on the issue.

Well, just wanted to put in my 2cents worth from someone in the middle.
(I am neither involved in D*Con nor am I involved in QO.)

Pam - a general fan.

[Terry Whittier]

(...various snips to edit for time and get to the meat of the cause for
my follow-up...)

Ted Rosenberg (tedros...@ibm.net) wrote:
: Gary Farber wrote:
: > Not intending to make a spelling flame, but simply to try to help, perhaps

: > you don't notice that almost all of your posts are riddled with these
: > strange misspellings, solecisims, and grammatical confusions, which
: > affects people's perceptions of your posts and your person. You might
: > want to take that into account when considering your own perceptions of
: > how people consistently react to you on Usenet, in every newsgroup you go
: > to, no matter that they never heard of you before.

: We dyslexics do NOT find a person with this type of attitude amusing or

: even fair, and there are a lot more of us around than you think,
: PARTICULARLY on the Internet (estimates run as high as 20%). It also
: tends to make us less likely to have any respect for anything you say -
: right OR wrong. Insensivety from someone who can't even figure out how
: to turn off MIME encoding for single-part messages.

Use a spell-checker.
Take the time to proofread your notes before you send them.

Try to be considerate to those people who are trying to do you the
courtesy of reading your note and trying to go about it with an open
mind. Most of them (the ones worth bothering about) want to give you
credit for what you write. If they have to guess at your words, it isn't
worth their time and they will assume you don't care much how you are
perceived, anyway, since you obviously don't care enough to craft what
you write.
I care about what I have to say, and I care that my text isn't too hard
for people to decipher. It takes me a lot longer to write these
notes/posts than I would like to spare from my schedule. It takes still
longer to re-read them and proof them. I have a dictionary handy and I
have a spellchecker available, too. I use them if I think I might have
to. I use them because I am considerate of others, even though they may
be total strangers. They deserve the benefit of the doubt.
So what's wrong with that?
--
"People USE their PCs...
But people LOVE their Macintoshes" -- me
-------------------------
From Terry Whittier in San Jose, CA
-------------------------

[Paul W. Cashman]

hmg...@gville.mindspring.com (Jonathan Walton) writes:

>van...@crl4.crl.com (Paul W. Cashman) wrote:

>>I hate to invoke any sort of ban, but this is the sort of event where
>>it would be regrettable, but justified.
>>
>Paul,

>I'm sorry, I have to disagree - if someone at the convention
>physically assaults another member, I don't think banning them is at
>all regrettable - just justified.

"Regrettable" only in the sense that it would create a precedent. No
convention (well, nearly so) wants to get a reputation for banning
people; this is one of the few cases where it would be justified.

[Gary Farber]

In <19970721170...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
John St524 <john...@aol.com> wrote:
[. . .]

: Alan, are you as big a jerk as you seem. He said that all events listed
: under the Queens Own track in the dragoncon guide were open to all
: memebers of Dragoncon. He got tired of people distorting his statements.
: What part of the phrase "all events listed in the Dragon guide, under the
: Queens Own Track were open to all members of Dragoncon" don't you
: understand?

: Now you can continue your snide remarks, and parrot other peopels
: statements about events that were NOT listed in the Dragoncon guide.
: Please feel free to continue to do so. I personally am immune to people
: like you. Scott got tired of people distirting hi position, ot outright
: lying.

Mr. Huskey does seem to have a problem with his temper and with choosing
to post personal abuse of people who annoy him rather than posting
rational argumentation or discourse. However, you lose the moral high
ground yourself when you resort to name-calling in reply.

A calm reply to such posts as Mr. Huskey's, rather than resorting to
name-calling or abuse, is the better way to go.

: See he is foolish enough to believe that an intelligent conversation can
: be had with people like you in usenet. I know better.

Intelligent conversation can indeed be held on Usenet, though it may not
be the dominant form. Of course, I'm a bit confused by your logic when
you say that Scott Schuler is no longer replying because he believes an
intelligent conversation can be held with "people like" Alan, but that's
trivial, if opague.

[Morgan]

Again, let me clear up something which seems to be a major point of
contention.

The "private" autograph sessions were announced throughout the
convention, making them less private as they seemed. The original
reason for making them "private" was to give those QOC attendees (note I
do NOT call them "members") who might not have had a chance to get an
autograph (had Misty attended) at the scheduled autograph sessions. At
no time would we have turned people away. At no time DID we turn people
away, save for reasons that the room was too full. Even then, we tried
to squeeze as many people into that room as possible. (I'm just glad
the fire marshall never inspected the convention!)

Anyone who came into the QOC function room was told about the "private"
autograph sessions. Anyone who picked up daily flyers in the QOC room
knew about the autograph sessions. Anyone who picked up the small
booklet we put together for our track saw the "private" autograph
sessions.

Now, as for the reason we did NOT advertise them (and other activities)
in the main programming list was simply to maintain a degree of
control. In the past, when we DID advertise the parties, we were
inundated with people who were less interested in being with Misty fans
as to see how much free food we served. In 1994, we held a small party
after the first "QOC Panel", and were wiped out of everything in a
matter of minutes. The next year, we advertised one party, and the same
thing happened. So, in 1996, we decided NOT to advertise any of our
after-hours events, and managed to not have to ask drunks to leave the
room, not have to deal with rude people and nothing was questioned.

As well, I discussed this with Regina, and we decided since we had some
valuable items in the room (in the Inforum), and didn't necessarily want
the room used for another activity (which frequently happens at D*Con),
we "blocked" the conference room. We also asked that Inforum security
lock the room after we left each night. Star Wars, I believe, also does
the same thing, as they, too, have auction items they don't want to walk
away.

Now, since this debate seems to be moving in a direction more of "is the
holding of private activities in rooms booked by the convention bad," I
think it would behoove everyone to stop "pointing fingers," and begin to
debate the actual issue. If you check, I'm sure everyone will find that
many "fandom" tracks of programming hold events which aren't necessarily
advertised, but are still "open" to anyone who asks or reads the flyers
(as in the case of QOC).

I begin to wonder, that had not Misty declined to attend the main con
programming, if this issue would have even come up. It has not before,
to my knowledge, so I'm left wondering if this isn't just another means
of pointing fingers and trying to find fault. I don't mind debating,
but I do draw the line at attempts to make me feel guilty for things I
have not done. I understand mine was NOT the programming track which
was for "members only," as was pointed out by Mike Dillson in his reply
to me last week.

If you have questions about QOC and the programming, then please ask. I
have no problem answering questions posed in the interest of finding the
facts. I do have a problem with people harping at one another, being
rude and sniping. That's not the way to come to logical conclusions, or
to find facts. Everyone seems to be screaming for facts, but when
someone posts a fact they KNOW --- or an impression of what THEY saw or
experienced --- there are people who take that opportunity to leap on
them and brow-beat.

Frankly, I think this is beginning to appear like beating a poor, dead
horse. Since there won't be another QOC at D*Con, the point is really
moot, save for a general discussion on the issue of separate tracks
using con facilities. Note, I said GENERAL discussion. Dragging QOC
only into this when there were other tracks which abused this far worse
isn't general.

Morgan
@{--,'----

[Jonathan Walton]

van...@crl6.crl.com (Paul W. Cashman) wrote:

>hmg...@gville.mindspring.com (Jonathan Walton) writes:
>
>>van...@crl4.crl.com (Paul W. Cashman) wrote:
>
>>>I hate to invoke any sort of ban, but this is the sort of event where
>>>it would be regrettable, but justified.
>>>
>>Paul,
>
>>I'm sorry, I have to disagree - if someone at the convention
>>physically assaults another member, I don't think banning them is at
>>all regrettable - just justified.
>
>"Regrettable" only in the sense that it would create a precedent. No
>convention (well, nearly so) wants to get a reputation for banning
>people; this is one of the few cases where it would be justified.
>

Paul,

Ah - now I understand what you mean. I stand corrected.

Jon

[Mary Kay Kare]

In article <5r151t$2...@camel12.mindspring.com>, hub...@mindspring.com wrote:

> Pardon me if I misunderstood, but, IMHO, your various postings about
> people's spelling, netiquette, etc..., are just as personal, and then
> you hide behind the pretense of trying to teach them something. Your
> ego is as sound as ever, it seems.

I have never seen Gary be rude, personal or condescending in his
corrections. Unless, of course, one considers any and all application of
standards to be rude personal and condescending. If I make a mistake, I
want to know about it so people of intelligence and education won't
consider me ignorant, boorish, or uncaring. De gustibus non disputandum.

MK

Mary Kay Kare
Compuserve's Team SF/F

[alan huskey]

gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:

>In <19970721170...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
>John St524 <john...@aol.com> wrote:
>[. . .]

>: Alan, are you as big a jerk as you seem. He said that all events listed
>: under the Queens Own track in the dragoncon guide were open to all
>: memebers of Dragoncon. He got tired of people distorting his statements.
>: What part of the phrase "all events listed in the Dragon guide, under the
>: Queens Own Track were open to all members of Dragoncon" don't you
>: understand?

>: Now you can continue your snide remarks, and parrot other peopels
>: statements about events that were NOT listed in the Dragoncon guide.
>: Please feel free to continue to do so. I personally am immune to people
>: like you. Scott got tired of people distirting hi position, ot outright
>: lying.

>Mr. Huskey does seem to have a problem with his temper and with choosing
>to post personal abuse of people who annoy him rather than posting
>rational argumentation or discourse. However, you lose the moral high
>ground yourself when you resort to name-calling in reply.

In this case it wasn't temper, rather it was seeing someone run away
rather than stand up for what they say. You can say what you will
about me, but I will argue my case or apologize, I won't run away.

>A calm reply to such posts as Mr. Huskey's, rather than resorting to
>name-calling or abuse, is the better way to go.

>: See he is foolish enough to believe that an intelligent conversation can
>: be had with people like you in usenet. I know better.

>Intelligent conversation can indeed be held on Usenet, though it may not
>be the dominant form. Of course, I'm a bit confused by your logic when
>you say that Scott Schuler is no longer replying because he believes an
>intelligent conversation can be held with "people like" Alan, but that's
>trivial, if opague.

Pardon me if I misunderstood, but, IMHO, your various postings about
people's spelling, netiquette, etc..., are just as personal, and then
you hide behind the pretense of trying to teach them something. Your
ego is as sound as ever, it seems.

Alan

[Gary Farber]

In <33d4f1bd...@news.primenet.com> Dave the Inverted
<inv...@primenet.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: I have not. I looked, and was unable to find any reference to it on
: the web. (If you could point me to a relevant URL, I'd be
: interested....) However, everything I did read on the subject of
: copyright either strongly suggests or comes right out and says that,
: under the Berne Convention, posts are copyrighted the instant they're
: sent.

Sending is irrelevant. The precise language is "fixed in tangible form."

I include the copyright notice in my .sig due to past specific threats to
use certain of my prose in certain hardcopy publications in other than a
"fair use" way and without my permission, and also due to the vast general
confusion and ignorance about copyright prevalent on Usenet.

[Dave the Inverted]

On 22 Jul 1997 14:34:25 -0400, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:

>In <33d4f1bd...@news.primenet.com> Dave the Inverted
><inv...@primenet.com> wrote:
>[. . .]
>: I have not. I looked, and was unable to find any reference to it on
>: the web. (If you could point me to a relevant URL, I'd be
>: interested....) However, everything I did read on the subject of
>: copyright either strongly suggests or comes right out and says that,
>: under the Berne Convention, posts are copyrighted the instant they're
>: sent.
>
>Sending is irrelevant. The precise language is "fixed in tangible form."

You are correct; that is the language used. Looking at the defintion
of "fixed in tangible form," it seemed to me that regardless of the
previous copyright status of the text in question, the act of posting
it would certainly qualify as so fixing it. I then turned around and
left out the actual qualification. My bad.

Dav2.718

Dave the Inverted
inv...@primenet.com
Speaking for myself.

[Ed Kramer]

In article <19970717074...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
morg...@aol.com (Morgan QOC) writes:

>Regarding the "alleged" attack on Pony White. I, personally, knew
nothing
>about this until Tuesday, 02 July. I have no proof EITHER WAY, and
choose
>not to discuss it. I don't have the facts from either side; all I have
is
>say-so from both, and if there's an investigation into this, then I don't
>think it should be bandied across the 'Net. Besides, it's NOT my
>business. Pony is a personal friend, and I regret he was injured.
That's
>all I'm saying on it.

StarGuard's investigation of alleged "assault" researched through Atlanta
Police Department Officer John Brown confirms that there is no record or
complaint involving a Shawn Loweth (aka "Pony White"). Additionally,
there were no arrests, hearings, or releases involving an assault charge
originated at the Hyatt Regency Atlanta (or anywhere else in the zone, for
that matter) at or near the times in question.

This information is consistent with another APD investigation that we
conducted and posted on July 12.

During the time period of the alleged "assault," the Hyatt Regency Atlanta
also confirms that they were in employment of two uniformed Atlanta Police
Department officers -- neither which has any knowledge of any of the
alleged incidents in question.

>The Bodyguards provided by D*Con were professionals. It was my
>understanding D*Con only provided ONE Star-Guard, and that Vince was
>paying the second man from his own pocket. I was TOLD (and this was not
>confirmed by me; nor will it be, as it's simply none of my business) the
>second guard was paid for by Misty. I do know that both men were
>courteous and professional in all their dealins with me and my staff, as
>well as the fans. Since my room was readily available, it was used as a
>"staging area". And, yes, it was checked inside and out every time Misty
>was in there. We didn't enter --- not even ME, whose room it was ---
went
>inside until Vince or John gave the "okay." Security was handled quite
>well by these two men, and I applaud them for a job well done, and give
>credit to D*Con for retaining two of the most professional bodyguards
I've
>ever encountered.

Dragon Con retained professional bodyguard service through StarGuard for
Ms. Lackey and Mr. Dixon, as we had committed in writing. This comprised
of a main and alternate professional (so at times, two bodyguards were
present). No additional fees were paid by Ms. Lackey or Mr. Dixon for
this service.

Ed Kramer

[Mark Fingerman]

MOC wrote:

> sav...@worldnet.att.net (Scott Schuler) wrote:
>
> >Obviously someone is lying through their teeth.
>

> And they want you to believe that it is Ms. Lackey and her husband.

>
> >I choose to believe
> >the accounts of Mercedes Lackey, Larry Dixon, Pony and the rest of
> the
> >High Fligh staff.
>

> So do many, including myself.

Mr. Castle,

On any number of occaisions, you have lambasted people who wrote
commentaries on Magnum Opus Con when they had not attended. By your
comments here, are you saying that you attended Dragon*Con 1997? Or do
you choose to believe the reports about Ms. Lackey and others based
solely on your prejudices against the staff and management of
Dragon*Con?

> Also remember, that I said the cronies consider themselves
> invulnerable. They consider themselves big, rich, powerful and
> influential. They also know that no one will check to find out the
> truth. So whatever the cronies say goes unquestioned.

I don't have an exact list of the "cronies," but I don't know of anyone
in Dragon*Con who considers themselves invulnerable. I believe Mr.
Dillson has practically begged anyone with information or documentation
regarding the report of an attack on Pony White to either contact him,
or place this information here in the newsgroup. You have in the past
demanded documentation on unsubstantiated information. It appears that
Dragon*Con is requesting the same type of verification that you have.

> >No, I am not calling the FBI, The
> >Atlanta Police Department to verify anything. The funny thing is
> that
> >I don't believe the Dragoncon staff have attempted to either.
> >Furthermore, just as they don't accept the words of myself and other
> >posters, I don't believe theirs.
>

> You don't have to. You and everyone know you are right.

There are two points here. First, if everyone knew that the report was
correct, then verifiable information would have been posted and the
discussion would have come to an end. The second is the sentence should
have been, "You, and everyone, knows you are right." I know it is a
minor point, but the grammatical error was rather glaring.

> The cronies win through intimidation, not truth. Please don't let
> them get to you. Too many good people have been silenced because of
> this large group.
>
> Roland Castle

No one has asked for the silence of anyone in this ng. Just the
opposite is true. Every request has been made for information. It
would appear, Mr. Castle, that you are making comments on an event with
which you were unfamiliar.

Mark Fingerman

[MOC]

sav...@worldnet.att.net (Scott Schuler) wrote:

>Obviously someone is lying through their teeth.

And they want you to believe that it is Ms. Lackey and her husband.

>I choose to believe
>the accounts of Mercedes Lackey, Larry Dixon, Pony and the rest of the
>High Fligh staff.

So do many, including myself.

> I truly find it hard to believe that people are not

>only questioing the authenticity of Pony White's injuries, but the
>nature of the threats themselves.

When one's life is threatened, it should never be taken lightly.

>
>Many of the accounts posted here by myself, and others have been
>distorted beyond recognition.

I believe that I have been telling everyone this about the cronies for
more than the past two years. Is this what it takes for people to
open their eyes? The cronies are very good at distorting the truth.
It's a shame that Ms. Lackey must go through this.

Also remember, that I said the cronies consider themselves
invulnerable. They consider themselves big, rich, powerful and
influential. They also know that no one will check to find out the
truth. So whatever the cronies say goes unquestioned.

>When I start seeing posts from people

>whom I respect, parroting these distortions as fact, it is time for me
>to bow out of this news group.

That's exactly what they want you to do, it's called apathy. They
figure if they get to you, you will quit bothering them and since you
left, it makes them appear right.

If you honestly believe there is a wrong, stick with it. Don't give
up because of their pressure and their social blackmail.

>No, I am not calling the FBI, The
>Atlanta Police Department to verify anything. The funny thing is that
>I don't believe the Dragoncon staff have attempted to either.
>Furthermore, just as they don't accept the words of myself and other
>posters, I don't believe theirs.

You don't have to. You and everyone know you are right.
>

>I will take this one step further, logically, if I made up a
>ficticious police case number, or mentioned a fake FBI name, you would
>have no way of knowing the truth. Quid Pro Quo, I have no way of
>knowing that you have checked with the Hyatt staff, or the Atlanta
>Policie Department.

I believe this is called the "Hellinger Report". You, I and everyone
else with a mind know we don't have to resort to their cronies
tactics. Leave it to the Dillsons, Loeddings, Briedbarts and
Hellingers.

>
>Aside from the fiasco surrounding the security arrangements for Ms
>Lackey, and the breach of contract, I had enjoyed Dragoncon97. Had the
>staff of Dragoncon acted like the professionals I had thought they
>were, I might have even come back. The staff I encountered at
>Dragoncon<lower echelon> and the Star Guard security people, were
>helpful, courteous, and caring. Too bad I cannot same the same for
>some of the posters here.
>
>Scott Schuler
>

>I refuse to get into a battle of
>wits with an unarmed person

The cronies win through intimidation, not truth. Please don't let

[Kelly Lockhart]

Ed Kramer wrote:

> StarGuard's investigation of alleged "assault" researched through
> Atlanta Police Department Officer John Brown confirms that there is no
> record or complaint involving a Shawn Loweth (aka "Pony White").
> Additionally, there were no arrests, hearings, or releases involving
> an assault charge originated at the Hyatt Regency Atlanta (or anywhere
> else in the zone, for that matter) at or near the times in question.
>

> During the time period of the alleged "assault," the Hyatt Regency
> Atlanta also confirms that they were in employment of two uniformed
> Atlanta Police Department officers -- neither which has any knowledge
> of any of the alleged incidents in question.

So, the truth is indeed out. "Pony White" somehow got himself injured
and then fabricated a malicious story.

So, to all the Misty supporters out there that have loudly denounced
DragonCon and their security people for this alleged incident, don't you
feel a little ashamed for jumping to conclusions without any evidence?

--
Kelly Lockhart
Chattanooga, TN
http://www.concentric.net/~kellyl

[Bob Webber]

Mary Kay Kare (ka...@sirius.com) wrote:
: ... If I make a mistake, I

: want to know about it so people of intelligence and education won't
: consider me ignorant, boorish, or uncaring. De gustibus non disputandum.

Um, I think your last sentence needs the word "est" in it someplace,
probably any place except between "de" and "gustibus."

Bob

Semper ubi sub ubi.

[P Nielsen Hayden]

Maybe it's one of them idiomatic things, because that's how I was taught that
tag in high-school Latin, too. Although I've certainly seen it many times
since as "de gustibus non est disputandum."

-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh

[Gary Farber]

In <5r8pth$4...@news1.panix.com> P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
: In article <EDuIK...@world.std.com>,
: web...@world.std.com (Bob Webber) wrote:
[. . .]
: >Um, I think your last sentence needs the word "est" in it someplace,

: >probably any place except between "de" and "gustibus."

: Maybe it's one of them idiomatic things, because that's how I was taught that
: tag in high-school Latin, too. Although I've certainly seen it many times
: since as "de gustibus non est disputandum."

I'm sure it depends upon where in Latin America you live, doesn't it? :-)

Gary "e pluribus unum" Farber

[Mary Kay Kare]

In article <5r8pth$4...@news1.panix.com>, p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:

> In article <EDuIK...@world.std.com>, web...@world.std.com (Bob Webber)
wrote:

> >Mary Kay Kare (ka...@sirius.com) wrote:
> >: ... If I make a mistake, I
> >: want to know about it so people of intelligence and education won't
> >: consider me ignorant, boorish, or uncaring. De gustibus non disputandum.
> >

> >Um, I think your last sentence needs the word "est" in it someplace,
> >probably any place except between "de" and "gustibus."
>
> Maybe it's one of them idiomatic things, because that's how I was taught that
> tag in high-school Latin, too. Although I've certainly seen it many times
> since as "de gustibus non est disputandum."

I've seen it as de gustibus non diputandum est, but I was taught it the
way I wrote it originally. Colloquially speaking, the meaning doesn't
really change. The Romans had just as much slang and as many idioms as we
do.

[MOC]

Mark Fingerman <fing...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>MOC wrote:
>
>> sav...@worldnet.att.net (Scott Schuler) wrote:
>>
>> >Obviously someone is lying through their teeth.
>>
>> And they want you to believe that it is Ms. Lackey and her husband.
>>
>> >I choose to believe
>> >the accounts of Mercedes Lackey, Larry Dixon, Pony and the rest of
>> the
>> >High Fligh staff.
>>
>> So do many, including myself.
>

>Mr. Castle,
>
>On any number of occaisions, you have lambasted people who wrote
>commentaries on Magnum Opus Con when they had not attended. By your
>comments here, are you saying that you attended Dragon*Con 1997? Or do
>you choose to believe the reports about Ms. Lackey and others based
>solely on your prejudices against the staff and management of
>Dragon*Con?

So what you are saying is: Dragon Con can do and say whatever about
others but others cannot do the same to them. Besides, I've printed
no lies but that's all you cronies do, lie.

>
>> Also remember, that I said the cronies consider themselves
>> invulnerable. They consider themselves big, rich, powerful and
>> influential. They also know that no one will check to find out the
>> truth. So whatever the cronies say goes unquestioned.
>

>I don't have an exact list of the "cronies," but I don't know of anyone
>in Dragon*Con who considers themselves invulnerable.

Isn't that typical, when asked questions about your own convention you
don't know the answer?

>I believe Mr.
>Dillson has practically begged anyone with information or documentation
>regarding the report of an attack on Pony White to either contact him,
>or place this information here in the newsgroup. You have in the past
>demanded documentation on unsubstantiated information. It appears that
>Dragon*Con is requesting the same type of verification that you have.

But Mr. Dillson said he was the expert. Funny how he doesn't know
about his own staff and convention. I've also noticed how he knows so
much about other conventions and their staffs.

>
>> >No, I am not calling the FBI, The
>> >Atlanta Police Department to verify anything. The funny thing is
>> that
>> >I don't believe the Dragoncon staff have attempted to either.
>> >Furthermore, just as they don't accept the words of myself and other
>> >posters, I don't believe theirs.
>>
>> You don't have to. You and everyone know you are right.
>

>There are two points here. First, if everyone knew that the report was
>correct, then verifiable information would have been posted and the
>discussion would have come to an end. The second is the sentence should
>have been, "You, and everyone, knows you are right." I know it is a
>minor point, but the grammatical error was rather glaring.

No, it was not a grammatical error, it was a typo.

>
>> The cronies win through intimidation, not truth. Please don't let
>> them get to you. Too many good people have been silenced because of
>> this large group.
>>
>> Roland Castle
>

>No one has asked for the silence of anyone in this ng. Just the
>opposite is true. Every request has been made for information. It
>would appear, Mr. Castle, that you are making comments on an event with
>which you were unfamiliar.
>
>Mark Fingerman

I don't have to be familiar with your event since I am very familiar
with your tactics. I have proven many times over that you are all
liars and you cover up well.

You even said if I provided you with facts you would quit DC. You
lied. The truth and facts don't mean anything to you. Your nose is
so high up Kramer's ass, you can't handle the truth.

Fingerman, don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. I'm not
a cronies zombie. All your power, influence and money don't mean a
thing to me.

Magnum Opus Con Moderator
Roland Castle

>
>

[Mark Fingerman]

MOC wrote:

> Mark Fingerman <fing...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >Mr. Castle,
> >
> >On any number of occaisions, you have lambasted people who wrote
> >commentaries on Magnum Opus Con when they had not attended. By your
> >comments here, are you saying that you attended Dragon*Con 1997? Or
> do
> >you choose to believe the reports about Ms. Lackey and others based
> >solely on your prejudices against the staff and management of
> >Dragon*Con?
>

Mr. Castle replied;

> So what you are saying is: Dragon Con can do and say whatever about
> others but others cannot do the same to them. Besides, I've printed
> no lies but that's all you cronies do, lie.

No, Mr. Castle. I simply asked you if you believed Ms. Lackey and her
proponents and on what you based that belief. I do not see a lie. I
see a request for clarification.

> >> Also remember, that I said the cronies consider themselves
> >> invulnerable. They consider themselves big, rich, powerful and
> >> influential. They also know that no one will check to find out the
>
> >> truth. So whatever the cronies say goes unquestioned.

I guess that rules me out as a cronie (crony ?sp?). I do not consider
myself big (other than a weight problem), rich, powerful, influential,
or invulnerable. I believe any number of requests for clarification,
from ANY source regarding the P. White matter have been made.

> Fingerman:

> >I don't have an exact list of the "cronies," but I don't know of
> anyone
> >in Dragon*Con who considers themselves invulnerable.
>

> Mr. Castle:

> Isn't that typical, when asked questions about your own convention you
>
> don't know the answer?

Did you ask a question Sir? If you are implying that every member of
the Dragon*Con staff is a cronie, then I stand guilty. As to your
comments that they are all rich, powerful, etc., I have responded to
that as it applies to myself. I dislike glittering generalities as they
are applied to myself as you have, to yourself in the past.

> Fingerman:

> >I believe Mr.
> >Dillson has practically begged anyone with information or
> documentation
> >regarding the report of an attack on Pony White to either contact
> him,
> >or place this information here in the newsgroup. You have in the
> past
> >demanded documentation on unsubstantiated information. It appears
> that
> >Dragon*Con is requesting the same type of verification that you have.
>
>

> Mr. Castle:

> But Mr. Dillson said he was the expert. Funny how he doesn't know
> about his own staff and convention. I've also noticed how he knows so
>
> much about other conventions and their staffs.

I must have missed this comment. Would you please refresh my memory as
to when Mr. Dillson claimed to be an expert? I believe he is well
acquainted with his staff. As for his familiarity with other
conventions, that may be because he attends many other gatherings.

> Fingerman:

> >No one has asked for the silence of anyone in this ng. Just the
> >opposite is true. Every request has been made for information. It
> >would appear, Mr. Castle, that you are making comments on an event
> with
> >which you were unfamiliar.
> >
> >Mark Fingerman
>
> I don't have to be familiar with your event since I am very familiar
> with your tactics. I have proven many times over that you are all
> liars and you cover up well.

And what am I accused of lying about?

> Mr. Castle:

> You even said if I provided you with facts you would quit DC. You
> lied. The truth and facts don't mean anything to you. Your nose is
> so high up Kramer's ass, you can't handle the truth.
>
> Fingerman, don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. I'm not
> a cronies zombie. All your power, influence and money don't mean a
> thing to me.

Sir, I believe you are ascribing someone else's comments to me. I have
never said I would quit Dragon*Con. If I was convinced that someone in
authority with the convention were spreading false rumors, I would work
toward having that person exposed and if possible, removed from the
convention. There are too many hard working staffers who make it their
edeavour to work with others honestly.

The facts mean a great deal to me. I am waiting for some to be
presented. I can tell you that you are in error as to the location of
my nose. I can handle the truth, and you are not Jack Nicholson. I am
not urinating on you, nor am I giving you false weather reports. I
could make crude comments in response to yours. I choose not too. It
would be a disservice to this news group.

And unfortunately all my "power, influence and money" didn't mean a
thing to the bank either when I tried to get a bill consolidation loan.

But all in all, I found your comments regarding my personage to be
almost amusing. Please note I said almost. Your insults in response to
honest questions do seem to form a pattern which takes it foundation
from our previous exchanges. I apologize for asking you to explain your
comments. I will make every effort to refrain from doing so in the
future. There seems to be no sense in it.

Mark Fingerman