Troops of Midian
George Mulliner
Hi all,
I'm hoping someone here can enlighten me on an oft used simile in
Wodehouse. Who are the troops of Midian and why do they prowl around?
Expectantly,
George Mulliner
Mark Trevor Smith
bone that I had buried--oh, excuse me, that was last week. With a little
digging, I found in the book of Judges, in chapters 6 and 7, that Gideon,
one of God's favorites, defeats the troops of Midian, who are famous for
their prowling; I think they're some kind of nomads. They're pretty
scary, apparently, and pretty big. The good guys beat them. Plum no
doubt found the simile a favorite one because said troops featured in a
hymn loved by the Victorians.
Christian, dost thou see them
On the holy ground?
How the troops of Midian
Prowl and prowl around?
Christian, up and smite them,
Counting gain but loss;
Smite them by the merit
Of the holy cross.
My guess would be that English schoolboys would have had to sing these
violent verses often, and that Plum and his first audience would find the
echo quite familiar.
--- Bartholemew, the Aberdeen Terrier
Ian Michaud
As to the who, they were an army of, er, Midianites who were routed by
Gideon's 300 trumpet-blowing troopers in an ancient battle of some
notoriety. As to the prowling around gag, this was a line in a popular
Victorian hymn which Plum no doubt was obliged to sing (or at least mouth
the words) on a regular basis in chapel during his school days at
Dulwich.
Teuf-teuf,
The Mixer
Neil Crockford
<arunn...@nobugsspam.che.wisc.edu> writes
>
>
>Hi all,
>
> I'm hoping someone here can enlighten me on an oft used simile in
>Wodehouse. Who are the troops of Midian and why do they prowl around?
>
"Christian, dost thou see them
On the holy ground
How the troops of Midian
Prowl and prowl around?
Christian, up and smite them
Counting gain but loss;
Smite them by the merit
Of the holy Cross" etc.
The hymn is by J.B. Neale and is a translation of a Greek original. It
is, alas, sung less frequently these days, but it is normally performed
to the tune "St. Andrew of Crete" by J.B. Dykes, which has a somewhat
boring melody line (the first four bars are all on the same note) but,
as is common with Dykes, a bass line which it is a pleasure to sing in
the bath.
The Biblical reference is to the defeat of the forces of Midian by
Gideon (Judges, Ch. 7).
James Bartholomew Belford
Pig-hoo-o-o-o-ey!
--
George Mulliner
> "Christian, dost thou see them
> On the holy ground
> How the troops of Midian
> Prowl and prowl around?
> Christian, up and smite them
> Counting gain but loss;
> Smite them by the merit
> Of the holy Cross" etc.
>
Thanks to all three (The Mixer, Bartholemew, & James Bartholomew Belford)
for looking up the reference. Rather catchy little hymn, I can quite see
why it was popular. So then, the troops of Midian prowl and prowl around
because that's just what they do, rather like big cats.
George Mulliner
Neil Crockford
<arunn...@nobugsspam.che.wisc.edu> writes
I know much more about pigs than big cats, so I can't comment on what
weight the latter might be allotted in the Great Prowling Handicap, but
I suggest that the troops of Midian may be prowling around in order to
furnish a convenient rhyme for "ground". Given that they've got to be
single-syllably somethinging around, "prowl" fits in better with the
mood of impending danger than, say, "mince".
My query is whether "prowl and prowl around" simply means they keep on
doing it, or whether there is a subtle difference between "prowling" and
"prowling around" such that there might be separate squads of "prowlers"
and prowlers around". I leave the solution of such teasers to the
fish-eaters amongst us.
James Bartholomew Belford
Pig-hoo-o-o-o-ey!
Henry Braun
> >for looking up the reference. Rather catchy little hymn, I can quite see
> >why it was popular. So then, the troops of Midian prowl and prowl around
> >because that's just what they do, rather like big cats.
> I know much more about pigs than big cats, so I can't comment on what
> weight the latter might be allotted in the Great Prowling Handicap, but
> I suggest that the troops of Midian may be prowling around in order to
> furnish a convenient rhyme for "ground". Given that they've got to be
> single-syllably somethinging around, "prowl" fits in better with the
> mood of impending danger than, say, "mince".
The best things to prowl around like aren't cats but cattle. As the poet
said (with very clear diction and much flexing of the cheek muscles):
The brown cow prowled around the house, howling loudly.
This is clearly a reference to the book of Numbers, ch 22, v 4:
[4] And Moab said unto the elders of Midian, Now shall this company
lick up all that are round about us, as the ox licketh up the grass
of the field.
So the hymn is a bit misleading, because it was the Israelites who the
Midianites thought were doing the prowling. God seems to have been put
into quite a pet on the occasion, and sends the Midianites against Gideon
a couple of generations later to teach them a lesson: Judges chapter 7.
Here again it's the Israelites who seem more prowlish:
[5] So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said
unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue,
as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one
that boweth down upon his knees to drink.
The point of this is that there were too many Israelites and not enough
Midianites for a fair fight---the Midianites were "like grasshoppers for
multitude" (and with my asserting hat on, I assert that Grasshoppers Don't
Prowl) but this isn't as many as Gideon's 32,000 men, so God sends home
everyone who doesn't drink like a cat.
The moral is that you shouldn't believe all that you read about the
Midianites, who get a pretty rough deal---Isaiah didn't like them,
either---and there's no evidence that they minced, at all.
Old Alleynian.
(PS)
> My query is whether "prowl and prowl around" simply means they keep on
> doing it, or whether there is a subtle difference between "prowling" and
> "prowling around" such that there might be separate squads of "prowlers"
> and prowlers around". I leave the solution of such teasers to the
> fish-eaters amongst us.
You have a choice when prowling, either to prowl from A to B or to prowl
in a circle. You can't prowl when stationary (try, if you don't believe
me). If some of your army (all of which starts at A) prowls to B, and the
rest prowl around back to A, you're going to end up with a smaller army
than you started with. This doesn't sound like smart tactics, though it's
remarkably reminiscent of the sort of thing Gideon does. So if you follow
my conjecture that it's not Midian but the Israelites who are on the
prowl, it's reasonable to assume that those who lapped like a cat prowled
around, while those who went on their knees like a cow just prowled. But
this goes rather beyond the evidence of the Text.
(PPS) I know it says "dog" in the Bible, not "cat"; but then again it
doesn't say "cat" anywhere in the Bible at all, and I suspect a
mistranslation by cat-haters.
LadyMacBec
presented with the "Bozo Sticker" award, for the most prodigiously
snort-inducing post. You can hand it on at your leisure, but only if you find
a recipient worthy of the dubious honor.
or honour, as the case may very well be.
pip pip importantly,
Corky
bob...@my-deja.com
While I am much impressed with your learned exegesis (if that is the
mot juste), it appears you have proved much more about the lapping and
licking habits of the Israelites and their neighbors the Midians, than
about their prowling.
To wit:
> This is clearly a reference to the book of Numbers, ch 22, v 4:
>
> [4] And Moab said unto the elders of Midian, Now shall this company
> lick up all that are round about us, as the ox licketh up the grass
> of the field.
And to wittier:
> Here again it's the Israelites who seem more prowlish:
>
> [5] So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said
> unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue,
> as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one
> that boweth down upon his knees to drink.
Try to remain on topic, old man.
George Finch
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Henry Braun
> Old Alleynian:
>
> While I am much impressed with your learned exegesis (if that is the
> mot juste), it appears you have proved much more about the lapping and
> licking habits of the Israelites and their neighbors the Midians, than
> about their prowling.
My dear Finch,
Alas, I do not have time to dig out the famous sermon on Prowling,
beginning with Prowling among the Jebusites and the Hivites and the
Amalekites and the Amorites, touching lightly on Prowling in Babylon and
Rome, and finally coming in triumph to Prowling in the present day.
For the moment I will merely point out that "prowling" is never mentioned
as such in the Bible---unlike "pants" (Ps 42), "fishnets" (John 32, Luke
5), or "mincing" (Isaiah 3:16)---and refer you to Psalm 59, which treats
the matter thus:
[14] And at evening let them return; and let them make a
noise like a dog, and go round about the city.
[15] Let them wander up and down for meat, and grudge if
they be not satisfied.
Observe that in vs 14 the enemies of the Psalmist are prowling around,
and in vs 15 they are prowling linearly. Contrast Satan in Job 1,2:
"From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it".
(Exercise for the reader: Can we deduce that the streets in the land of Uz
were arranged in a gridiron?)
If you would like to attend my class Scripture Knowledge 101 (Remedial)
you should speak to the Registrar and pay the fee appointed: otherwise I
fear we must reserve this conversation until outside academic hours.
Old Alleynian
Neil Crockford
water.maths.ox.ac.uk>, Henry Braun <br...@maths.ox.ac.uk> writes
>As George Finch writes,
>> Old Alleynian:
>>
>> While I am much impressed with your learned exegesis (if that is the
>> mot juste), it appears you have proved much more about the lapping and
>> licking habits of the Israelites and their neighbors the Midians, than
>> about their prowling.
>> Try to remain on topic, old man.
>
>My dear Finch,
>
>Alas, I do not have time to dig out the famous sermon on Prowling,
>beginning with Prowling among the Jebusites and the Hivites and the
>Amalekites and the Amorites, touching lightly on Prowling in Babylon and
>Rome, and finally coming in triumph to Prowling in the present day.
>
James Bartholomew Belford
Pig-hoo-o-o-o-ey!
bob...@my-deja.com
> [14] And at evening let them return; and let them make a
> noise like a dog, and go round about the city.
> [15] Let them wander up and down for meat, and grudge if
> they be not satisfied.
>
> Observe that in vs 14 the enemies of the Psalmist are prowling around,
> and in vs 15 they are prowling linearly.
I believe a careful reading of vs15 will reveal that, far from prowling
linearly, they are prowling "up and down", which presents us with the
option of either raising serious questions about the observations of
the psalmist, or else dealing with what would appear to be supernatural
powers among his enemies. Was it perhaps the enemies of the psalmist
who were the favored of God?
>Contrast Satan in Job 1,2:
> "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in
it".
Satan too is walking "up and down" (perhaps this answers the question
about the powers of the psalmist's enemies), but I note that he is
walking not "on" the earth, but "in" it. What is the significance here?
> (Exercise for the reader: Can we deduce that the streets in the land
of Uz
> were arranged in a gridiron?)
>
I'll get back to you on this one.
Richard Herring
<ne...@crockford.demon.co.uk> wrote
>In article <Pine.LNX.4.30.0101311152480.27503-100000@sky-and-
>water.maths.ox.ac.uk>, Henry Braun <br...@maths.ox.ac.uk> writes
>>
>>beginning with Prowling among the Jebusites and the Hivites and the
>>Amalekites and the Amorites, touching lightly on Prowling in Babylon and
>>Rome, and finally coming in triumph to Prowling in the present day.
>>
>That would, presumably be a reference to J.K. Prowling.
Ah, yes. One of those gloomy chaps (Isaiah, would it be?) went on a bit
about the Potter's clay, didn't he? And isn't there something about
another chap who was a smooth man, but his brother was Harry?
--
Reggie "Kipper" Herring <mailto:ric...@clupeid.demon.co.uk>
Henry Braun
> >>Alas, I do not have time to dig out the famous sermon on Prowling,
> >>beginning with Prowling among the Jebusites and the Hivites and the
> >>Amalekites and the Amorites, touching lightly on Prowling in Babylon and
> >>Rome, and finally coming in triumph to Prowling in the present day.
> >>
> >That would, presumably be a reference to J.K. Prowling.
>
> Ah, yes. One of those gloomy chaps (Isaiah, would it be?) went on a bit
> about the Potter's clay, didn't he? And isn't there something about
> another chap who was a smooth man, but his brother was Harry?
There's Milton too:
Nine times the Space that measures Daye and Night
To mortal Men, he with his Horrid crew
Lay Rowling on the Deep...
JMG Joe
<<There's Milton too:
Nine times the Space that measures Daye and Night
To mortal Men, he with his Horrid crew Lay Rowling on the Deep...>>
Egad, man! This whole thing is becoming a tad Gallic in nature...
A Young Man In Spats
c/o The Drones Club
16 Dover Street
London, W1
18...@my-deja.com
Well, I think this is one of the most educational, edifying (if that's
how you spell it) threads I've ever encountered. I hope those
Millennium concordance chaps are getting all this down. It should do
for another volume. By the way, touching on this same concordance: Is
it good? Is it easy to obtain? Is it all in print yet?
18ck
Anne Cotton
> Henry Braun noted:
>
> <<There's Milton too:
> Nine times the Space that measures Daye and Night
> To mortal Men, he with his Horrid crew Lay Rowling on the Deep...>>
>
I could, of course, be totally off the wall (a place I seem to inhabit more
and more frequently of late), but I don't think "rowling" and "prowling"
are exactly the same thing. I don't happen to have handy a dictionary
of Words Even More Antiquated Than I Am, but I had read that word
as more akin to "growling" -- something dogs do when one is trimming
their toenails (a thing they detest), and they give those constant rumbling
rattling noises that translate roughly as "cut that out, lady, or you will
be
missing a finger or three in about one minute."
Lady Bassett