[ESSAY] The Scapegoat: A defense of Takatsuki Shiori in the Utena canon
Scott Johnson
"The goat shall carry on itself
all their sins to a solitary place..."*
Over time, I've seen a lot of venom being directed at one single character
in Utena. Exactly why, I've never been one hundred percent sure. It
seems that most series develop their own 'whipping boys' in fandom as time
goes on -- Wesley Crusher in Star Trek: the Next Generation, Chibi-Usa in
Sailor Moon, to a lesser extent Akane (or, in their time, Shampoo or
Ukyou) in Ranma 1/2. It usually starts out with a fairly legitimate gripe
about how a character is overused or badly characterized or in some other
way very annoying, but it quickly gains a life of its own. (I don't care
how many times it's said; I will never believe that being cute and bratty,
as Chibi-Usa is said to be, is justification for wanting her flayed alive
and boiled in oil or the like.) The point has always seemed to me to
stray quickly from legitimate grievances with the characters and moved
towards hate for the sake of hating, for the glee of imagining fictional
torments, or for the sake of having a common cause with others in the
fandom.
My position is rather different. I'm a writer. On one level, I do view
characters from the perspective of whether I'd enjoy being around them or
not, whether or not they are admirable people, and so forth. But I also
view them from the point of view of the story. Do they serve a
purpose? Do they create interesting conflict, or bring out new sides of
those around them? Are they deep and complex? From that point of view, I
find I don't hate any of the characters in Utena -- the story just
wouldn't be the same without them. Even minor characters, such as
Tsuwabuki's friend Mari or the trio of Suzuki, Tanaka and Yamada, are used
efficiently and well, and I wouldn't choose to discard them.
For a while I stayed neutral on the matter of Shiori and the hatred some
Utena fans tended to give her. I certainly wasn't sure of the reasons for
it. Initially, I would have expected other characters, such as Nanami,
Akio, Kozue, or perhaps even Anthy to draw that sort of spite. Certainly
their behavior in various parts of the story would give the bile a seed to
grow from However, for various reasons, the first four episodes of the
Black Rose Saga were the last episodes of Utena I got to see -- and so I
only saw Shiori's duel episode after seeing every other episode. From the
later episodes she'd been in, I didn't precisely hate her, but I could see
that she had the potential to be someone to inspire that sort of
emotion. I presumed that it was her duel episode that had worked people
up into such frothing heights of frenzy against her, and while I've never
reached that state of agitation about a fictional character, I assumed I'd
at least see their justification after seeing it.
And then I watched the episode. And I realized I didn't hate her. I
rather liked her, in fact, or at least felt sympathetic towards her.
She wasn't some gloating manipulative evil type. She wasn't deliberately
twisting Juri around her little finger. She was scared, she was lonely,
she was struggling under a combined deep friendship and crushing
inferiority complex. She didn't know what to do. She was weak
sometimes. But she wasn't evil.
Many of the Shiori-haters I've seen point to her duel episode as the
strongest evidence against her. She torments Juri, they say. She cruelly
manipulates her, and tries to stomp Juri down so she may rise. They take
her 'confession,' as it were, to Mikage, as the keystone of her
damnation. How could she treat a friend so poorly? How could she despise
Juri so much?
How could she do that, indeed? How could Kanae rant about how inhuman her
fiancee's sister was? How could Wakaba be so vicious and unforgiving
towards Anthy? How could Tsuwabuki, of all people, seriously talk about
wanting to destroy the world?
The elevator confessional of Nemuro Memorial Hall brings out the worst in
people. They claim it's their true self, but it's just a part of them --
the part they don't show in public, often the part they're ashamed of in
themselves. It is their fears, their hatreds, their blackest urges. It
is the part of them that speaks to them in the darkest nights of their
souls, when they are at their most despondent, their most
self-loathing. Mikage brings it out, and uses that emotion to turn them
into the perfect Black Rose Duelists.
Do we hate Tsuwabuki because he's bent on destroying the world? Do we
hate Wakaba because she's neurotic and jealous? Generally, no. But many
people want to take Shiori's words in the elevator as the whole of her
character. And at that, they don't even want to consider the full impact
of them.
Look at how many mood swings she goes through as the elevator
descends. First she calmly talks about how she's hated Juri since
childhood, because she was jealous of her. Then that facade cracks, and
she reveals the true depths of her inferiority complex -- how she was so
sure Juri was looking down on her, and being friends only out of pity, and
how she tried to change that by trying to prove she was superior to Juri
in some way -- by taking the boy she thought Juri loved. And she realizes
that was a mistake, that it only made her more unhappy. Then she shifts
again, realizing that she does have power over Juri, and always has,
because Juri loves her. It makes her happy for a moment, realizing she's
finally won, she finally is at or above Juri's level. And then that, too,
cracks, as Shiori realizes what it means, and she becomes revulsed and
terrified by the thought of her best friend, another girl, feeling 'that
way' about her. At the end, she is miserable, crumpled with guilt and
fear and self-loathing, in the perfect position for Mikage to sweep in and
enfold her within his black rose.
And then think back to Shiori's conversation with Utena earlier, where she
says how she's always looked up to Juri, and how she can trust Juri
wholeheartedly... and that she doesn't feel worthy of her trust any more.
What comes across to me is clear: Shiori is an intensely conflicted
character, with her friendship with Juri warring with her jealousy and low
self-esteem, her desire to move out of Juri's shadow clashing with her
unrealistic idolization of her, and her newly-realized mild homophobia
twisting all of it. (Or maybe homophobia is too strong a word -- you have
to admit it'd be a shock for a straight person to suddenly realize their
best friend is gay and has a severe crush on them.)
Shiori feels inferior, and so desperately searches for some way to define
herself and move out of Juri's shadow. Shiori is lonely, and so
desperately seeks out companionship where she can find it (the unnamed
friend, or later Ruka) even when it's ultimately self-destructive. Shiori
can't deal with the idea of her childhood friend and lifelong standard of
excellence having a crush on her, and so she eventually flees from Juri's
friendship. I see a lot to pity in her. But not much to hate.
The question, then, becomes: why do people hate her so? In part, I think,
it is because a fairly quick glance at her character does make her out to
be somewhat despicable, and even a longer look finds little to
admire. But it's more than that. Another part can be attributed to the
momentum these hate movements have once they get started -- people join
them because existing members make it seem enjoyable, and have arguments
that are convincing in a simple and amusing way. A third part, I think,
has to do with the one who holds her closest to her heart: Arisugawa Juri.
Juri is a very popular character in this fandom, and justifiably so. She
is quite possibly one of the most competent among the cast at nearly
everything she is shown trying, and so gains respect. She is quite
attractive, though most of the show's characters are similarly so. She is
a lesbian, and so gains interest from many corners: real lesbians, gay men
and others with a favorable outlook on homosexuality, and of course the
obligatory lustful young men. And she is a tragic figure, drawing much
sympathy in all corners for the wound in her heart that virtually defines
her. And that wound, of course, is Shiori.
It is here, I think, that the root of it all lies. Fans and admirers of
Juri see the one thing that pains her most, that wreaks havoc on her life,
that drives her to rage against miracles and to submit to Ruka and Akio's
intentions. It is her unrequited love for Shiori, and the things Shiori
does, deliberately or inadvertently, to hurt Juri more. They wish they
could remove the pain from her. And so they imagine doing so by removing
Shiori, the source of it all.
Of course, that's a fairly simplistic approach to it. Imagine Juri's
response if, for instance, Shiori were to be slain in the halls of Ohtori
in a freak elephant accident. Would Juri's heart lighten
immediately? Would she abruptly become a shining, whole, well-rounded and
emotionally balanced individual? Would she rejoice that the one who had
tormented her was finally gone? I find it implausible, to say the
least. The loss would simply twist the knife in her heart even
further. She would think of all the chances she had lost to somehow make
things right in the future. She would feel the anguish of one who has
lost the one they love. Perhaps, with time, she would heal somewhat, but
a part of her, the part that had loved Shiori, would be dead forever. It
is also unimaginable that, were someone to claim to be responsible for
Shiori's death, and that it were done for Juri's own good, she would be
grateful. Ruka did far lesser things, also arguably for Juri's own good,
and her responses to him were rage and despair. Eventually she came to
some reconciliation with him, after a cathartic experience (and his own
death!), but I somehow doubt that would have happened if Shiori were
mouldering in a grave somewhere, dead at Ruka's hands. Some wounds are
too large to forgive.
Furthermore, look at the idea from the point of view of a creator, rather
than a contemporary of the subjects. Shiori defines Juri. Without
Shiori, Juri strikes me as a comparatively flat character. A few touches
of interest, yes, but ultimately she is a side character with no
significant flaw, nothing to make her human. Shiori brings Juri to
earth. She introduces that flavor of tragedy that makes her so
compelling, and gives her a domain in which she is in no way superior to
the rest of us -- the domain of the heart. Shiori's death would
short-circuit this completion in every way, and the painless happiness
some wish for Juri would do so even more.
A character needs flaws, needs stumbling blocks, needs something to grow
irrational or wrongheaded about. Certainly those flaws, ideally, should
be slowly overcome, but that sort of thing can't be imposed from
outside. It can be argued that Juri has done such by the end of the anime
-- and it can be argued likewise that this has brought her and Shiori to
reconciliation. (There is a certain lack of complete evidence for either
view, though, and so I won't expound upon them at this time.) However, it
was arrived at by complex internal struggle, not simple external saviors,
and Juri is perhaps deeper and better for the experience.
Shiori's detractors call her 'the goat,' for reasons which have never been
entirely clear to me. But it reminds me of another goat, laden by Jewish
tradition with the sins of the community, and bearing them out into a
desolate place to be sacrificed and take the blame. Shiori is laden with
the pains and flaws in Juri's character, and led out for sacrifice in the
hopes that all that is wrong or disliked in Juri's life and personality
will die with her. But I've never been favorably inclined towards the
tradition of the scapegoat. And I hope you can see why it doesn't sit
well with me here.
--
Scott Johnson |
za...@io.com | This space intentionally left blank.
* Leviticus 16:22, as translated in _Battle Angel Alita: Angel of Redemption_
James Helferty
>
[snip]
Here here! Well said; I agree wholeheartedly.
James
--
jhel...@chat.carleton.ca
http://chat.carleton.ca/~jhelfert
Kionon
Scott Johnson <za...@io.com> wrote:
>
>
This of course, requires a counter-essay, and I don't mean about
Shiori. I mean about groups of fandom in general. I hate Shiori, and
there are those who love her. However, if you think that I'll let those
feelings cause me to actually hurt someone, mentally of physically,
then you are sadly mistake. As one takes flack, one can give it as
well. It's the nature of fandom. We all wish to put our characters
first, and those that get in the way of this suffer, if only in an
online bickering back and forth. I may hate Shiori, but that does not
mean I hate all Shiori lovers. I am, as you noted this character, a
Wesley Crusher FAN, but that doesn't mean all Wes fans are
automatically good and benevolant in my eyes. Sure, I do it to belong.
We all do. Human nature is to create solidary associations. We are
united under a common viewpoint. What that viewpoint is is unimportant,
as long as we find those who justify being right, and we do not violate
the rights of others. This, my friends, is a newsgroup, an open forum
for discussion. We do have general ettiquete we follow, but hating
characters happens to be one of our favorite pastimes. It's part of
being Anime -or any thing- fans. Heck, if you think I'm bad, look to
pro sports. There fans that will actually kill you, murder you in cold
blood, for insulting their team or supporting yours. I have no wish to
cause violence. I just have wish to makes me views plain fairly, and in
an arean where others recognize me as right, even though some do not.
Make things clearer?
--
Kionon (SailorTerra)
Protector of the Paragon of Pinkness
Denouncer of the Goat
Cardinal of the Church of Miki
Proud member of the Shiori Death Advocates!
UtenaCode(1.0) U:5++ F:Mi+++++++Ut++:pSC D:Na--Sh---> X:[*]-:7+
M:f"Ojisama/The Sunlit Garden"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Anj
Scott Johnson wrote:
--snip--
*clap*clap* A very well reasoned essay.
As a writer I agree on the importance of having characters whom the
readers/audience may not like, but who are important to the plot or the
growth of another character. In fact, if you make all your characters
likable, the story will be excruciatingly dull. It's much better to
make the characters interesting. And I find all of the characters in
Utena interesting, with the exception of Kanae, Ms. Underdeveloped-Personality.
I know I "baa" occasionally, but only as a joke. I wouldn't seriously
want to see Shiori expurgated from the series. I recognize her
importance to Juri's character development. In the manga, without
Shiori, Juri is flat out boring. (In the manga, I found Chu-Chu more
appealing than Juri!) I probably wouldn't be friends with Shiori in
real life, but then, attractive as I find Juri in the series, if she
were a real person I'd probably find her far too intimidating to be approachable.
--Anj
--
The cat ate my signature file.
Tolaris
>This of course, requires a counter-essay, and I don't mean about
>Shiori. I mean about groups of fandom in general. I hate Shiori, and
>there are those who love her. However, if you think that I'll let those
>feelings cause me to actually hurt someone, mentally of physically,
>then you are sadly mistake. [..]
>
>Make things clearer?
--
I think you miss the point...to make it more simple:
[seriously] hating Shiori to the point one wants to see her
dead is as stupid, as [seriously] hating Chibiusa to the
point one wants to see her dead...since the typical reasons
to hate Shiori are as silly as the ones of the Chibiusa
haters...hth.
Tolaris
idly noting that, on the other hand, there's noting wrong
with hating characters for valid reasons... :P
Kionon
Tolaris <tol...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:48:31 GMT, Kionon wrote:
>
> >This of course, requires a counter-essay, and I don't mean about
> >Shiori. I mean about groups of fandom in general. I hate Shiori, and
> >there are those who love her. However, if you think that I'll let
those
> >feelings cause me to actually hurt someone, mentally of physically,
> >then you are sadly mistake. [..]
> >
> >Make things clearer?
> --
> I think you miss the point...to make it more simple:
> [seriously] hating Shiori to the point one wants to see her
> dead is as stupid, as [seriously] hating Chibiusa to the
> point one wants to see her dead...since the typical reasons
> to hate Shiori are as silly as the ones of the Chibiusa
> haters...hth.
Certainly, they're silly, but that isn't MY point. And I'm not serious.
Most likely, if Shiori was real, I'd deal, and if Chibi-usa was real,
unless she was being physically attacked, or verbally attacked to such
an extent that is not proper to do to a small child, I wouldn't risk my
life. They're just ink, people. If I've come off as ACTUALLY thinking
that Chibi-usa is God in a religious way, and that Shiori is Lucifer
himself, that you might believe I believe that in real life, I have
given the wrong impression. I'm only a zealot at cons and online,
because that's the reputation I have aquired. I should like to dispense
with any pretense that my online persona is exactly like my offline
persona, at least offline in that I am not in any way associated with
Anime. If the situation does not warrent Otakudom, I will not waste the
energy, what's the point?
> Tolaris
> idly noting that, on the other hand, there's noting wrong
> with hating characters for valid reasons... :P
Who decides what is valid, my dear Tolaris? You? No, this is why we
have democracy. We are all entitled to our opinions.
Tom Cheng
>
> "The goat shall carry on itself
> all their sins to a solitary place..."*
>
> Over time, I've seen a lot of venom being directed at one single character
> in Utena.
Yeah, probably.
Actually, I think TV Akio and Touga are much more reprehensible people
than Shiori, because she is small, weak, lonely, and kind of pathetic,
while those two are powerful and purposefully manipulative and
deceitful.
Maybe I just mock Shiori because it's fun, kind of like mocking Canada.
I would much rather live in Canada than, say, Bosnia, but it's just fun
to make fun of Canada.
--
Tom Cheng, #1 Celes and Galaxia fan
tkc...@home.com
http://members.home.net/tkcheng "I understand your opinion,
----------- NOW PLAYING ----------- I just don't care."
Outer Senshi Doom | Galaxia-sama
Project SING: Saturn Is Not Goth -Jedah
Soul Calibur Ivy and Mitsurugi FAQs
Tekken 2 combos and multipart FAQs
The only Celes Chere's home
Scortia
Tom Cheng wrote:
> Scott Johnson wrote:
> >
> > "The goat shall carry on itself
> > all their sins to a solitary place..."*
> >
> > Over time, I've seen a lot of venom being directed at one single character
> > in Utena.
>
> Yeah, probably.
>
> Actually, I think TV Akio and Touga are much more reprehensible people
> than Shiori, because she is small, weak, lonely, and kind of pathetic,
> while those two are powerful and purposefully manipulative and
> deceitful.
<kills Touga> He's just a stupid playboy. ;P <flees Karyn, Lauren, fangirls...>
I was glad to see him with Shiori in the movie. They fit well together.
>
>
> Maybe I just mock Shiori because it's fun, kind of like mocking Canada.
> I would much rather live in Canada than, say, Bosnia, but it's just fun
> to make fun of Canada.
rotflmao.. that is my philosophical quote of the week. ^^
--
--Scortia
afu's Saionji and Wakaba ^^
"Shh! Listen! I can hear the ocean
in your head..." - Ryan Stiles
Quatorz
me to the show-they are all fascinating characters, and are all, in some way,
broken. Where most shows have the 'jealous sister archetype', Nanami really
takes that to a level I haven't seen in the average anime. She borders on near
sociopathic tendencies.
Shiori is no different: she is a secondary character surrounded by amazing
people. Like Wakaba, she too managed to flourish verdantly, and by any means
necessary.
Think of Touga, Saionji, Akio, Juri, and of course our lovely heroine. That's a
tough crwod to run with. Shiori managed the only way she knew how.
-Quatorz
James Helferty
> Tom Cheng wrote:
> > Scott Johnson wrote:
> > >
> > > all their sins to a solitary place..."*
> > >
> > > Over time, I've seen a lot of venom being directed at one single character
> > > in Utena.
> >
> >
> > Actually, I think TV Akio and Touga are much more reprehensible people
> > than Shiori, because she is small, weak, lonely, and kind of pathetic,
> > while those two are powerful and purposefully manipulative and
> > deceitful.
>
> <kills Touga> He's just a stupid playboy. ;P <flees Karyn, Lauren, fangirls...>
> I was glad to see him with Shiori in the movie. They fit well together.
I think he's the perfect evil villain, though. The most important part
of his identity is that he IS so manipulative. What school doesn't have
the extremely popular playboy who's a two-faced moral-less manipulator?
And since when has such behaviour ever stopped such a person from making
great inroads into politics..?
Scott, ever considered writing an essay on how much Touga and Clinton
have in common..? ^.-
You've gotta love movie Akio, though. I think he's probably the most
pathetic character I have ever seen--most pathetically hilarious, that
is. :)
> > Maybe I just mock Shiori because it's fun, kind of like mocking Canada.
> > I would much rather live in Canada than, say, Bosnia, but it's just fun
> > to make fun of Canada.
>
> rotflmao.. that is my philosophical quote of the week. ^^
Cut it out, eh? I don't see what's so funny aboot it. ;P
(..ZnM-chan made fun of my Canadian accent.. ;.;)
James Helferty
>
> In article <jdp3tssau12brogb8...@4ax.com>,
> Tolaris <tol...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > Tolaris
> > idly noting that, on the other hand, there's noting wrong
> > with hating characters for valid reasons... :P
>
> Who decides what is valid, my dear Tolaris? You? No, this is why we
> have democracy. We are all entitled to our opinions.
Incorrect. Only the majority are entitled to their opinion. The rest
are ridiculed. Such is the way of the modern democracy.
Scott Johnson
> This of course, requires a counter-essay, and I don't mean about
> Shiori. I mean about groups of fandom in general. I hate Shiori, and
> there are those who love her. However, if you think that I'll let those
> feelings cause me to actually hurt someone, mentally of physically,
> then you are sadly mistake.
Oh, I never thought that. I think in general those who join 'hate' groups
against fictional characters aren't prone towards violence in real life.
That wasn't my point.
> As one takes flack, one can give it as
> well. It's the nature of fandom. We all wish to put our characters
> first, and those that get in the way of this suffer, if only in an
> online bickering back and forth. I may hate Shiori, but that does not
> mean I hate all Shiori lovers. I am, as you noted this character, a
> Wesley Crusher FAN, but that doesn't mean all Wes fans are
> automatically good and benevolant in my eyes. Sure, I do it to belong.
> We all do. Human nature is to create solidary associations. We are
> united under a common viewpoint. What that viewpoint is is unimportant,
> as long as we find those who justify being right, and we do not violate
> the rights of others.
Now, see, I've never been able to fully get behind that viewpoint. What
you're essentially saying here is that the point of the Shiori Death
Advocates isn't to hate Shiori, it's just to be a group, and that you'd be
equally much a part of the group if it were, say, the Anti-Kozue League,
or the Lets All Kick Annoying Akio Around Society, or the Young Ohtori
Republicans for that matter. If 'what that viewpoint is is unimportant,'
than the only important thing is being part of a group, right?
The thing is, perhaps it's just me, but I've never joined a group just for
the sake of belonging, or fitting in, or making friends within the group.
If I agree with the aims or ideas of a group, I'll associate with them,
and if not, I'll go my own way, or perhaps discuss matters with them if I
think they're doing something they shouldn't or if they seem like
intelligent folks. I'm a bit isolated, yes, but that's never struck me as
an entirely bad thing.
> This, my friends, is a newsgroup, an open forum
> for discussion. We do have general ettiquete we follow, but hating
> characters happens to be one of our favorite pastimes. It's part of
> being Anime -or any thing- fans.
Though that's another thing I've never been able to fully grasp -- hating
fictional characters just doesn't strike me as that amusing a hobby.
Maybe for a brief period, but in the end, everything that can be said or
thought about hating or torturing a character has probably been said a
million times before, often better. (Trivia note: the first known
fanfiction stories in the English language are two addenda to the
Canterbury Tales. One is a fairly obvious omnipotent-self-insertion, the
other is a 'let's torment this character I hated' story. The more things
change...) I can accept that not everyone has the same tastes I do, but
there's more creative ways I want to spend my time.
> Heck, if you think I'm bad, look to
> pro sports. There fans that will actually kill you, murder you in cold
> blood, for insulting their team or supporting yours.
And I don't in any way approve of that behavior, either.
> I have no wish to
> cause violence. I just have wish to makes me views plain fairly, and in
> an arean where others recognize me as right, even though some do not.
> Make things clearer?
I've always agreed with the basic thrust of this -- that it's a relatively
harmless pastime. But what did you think of the main thrusts of my
argument -- that it's not a particularly interesting or useful pastime,
and that Shiori herself is more a character to be pitied than hated?
That's what I was really more interested in discussing.
Scott Johnson
> Scortia wrote:
>>
>> <kills Touga> He's just a stupid playboy. ;P <flees Karyn, Lauren, fangirls...>
>> I was glad to see him with Shiori in the movie. They fit well together.
> I think he's the perfect evil villain, though. The most important part
> of his identity is that he IS so manipulative. What school doesn't have
> the extremely popular playboy who's a two-faced moral-less manipulator?
> And since when has such behaviour ever stopped such a person from making
> great inroads into politics..?
> Scott, ever considered writing an essay on how much Touga and Clinton
> have in common..? ^.-
Not really. I wouldn't want to denigrate Touga that much. :-) Seriously,
I wouldn't want to write anything about modern politicians because they
strike me as being so indistinguishable -- Gore, Bush, Clinton, Reagan,
even all the way back to Kennedy; they all had their scandals, and they
all hid their true selves from the public; it's just a matter of how well
they did it. I don't see any modern politicians as having a tenth of the
character development Touga went through during the series, and certainly
none of them have ended up with even his partial redemption...
But this is just hideously off-topic, so I'll stop here.
>> > Maybe I just mock Shiori because it's fun, kind of like mocking Canada.
>> > I would much rather live in Canada than, say, Bosnia, but it's just fun
>> > to make fun of Canada.
>>
>> rotflmao.. that is my philosophical quote of the week. ^^
> Cut it out, eh? I don't see what's so funny aboot it. ;P
I personally like Canada. Not a perfect nation by any stretch of the
imagination, but most of the time it strikes me as marginally saner than
the U.S.
(Though I'll admit humor can be wrung from it -- it inspired
'Sovereignity-Associationist Girl Nanami,' one of the better Utena humor
fics, after all. But then, there's humor in anything if you know where
to look, and thank goodness for that.)
jiras_ji...@my-deja.com
> all their sins to a solitary place..."*
I sincerely applaud your heartfelt and thourough defense of a
much-maligned character...
Really, my first introduction to Shiori came not from the episodes
centered around her, but from the larger-than-life reputation as evil
incarnate that she acheived on the internet. I was fascinated: what sins
could she possibly have committed to deserve such oppobrium?
However, when I saw the movie and the Ruka episodes, I came away feeling
an odd sort of admiration for her: here was an ordinary, unremarkable
girl who by a twist of fate learned the secrets of the End of the World
and did her best to use them to her advantage... a move that took
ambition and guts, hallmarks of a respectable 'bad guy'...
Beyond that however, we must also bear in mind how she is judged by the
one person whose opinion on the subject should eclipse all others...
Jury-sempai herself. (the following may contain SPOILERS)
wimpy spoiler space...
By the final episode it is clear that Jury has forgiven Shiori for her
transgressions, to the point of taking her on as her protege, so that
she can become special in her own right. Like Utena with Anthy, I am
disinclined to second guess the judgement of the injured party as to how
culpable is the injurer. If Jury and Utena can forgive, then I can at
least try to understand why...
Jiras Jiros Jires
But I still hate Akio's guts...
jiras_ji...@my-deja.com
Anj <amar...@radiks.net> wrote:
>
> Scott Johnson wrote:
> --snip--
>
> *clap*clap* A very well reasoned essay.
>
> As a writer I agree on the importance of having characters whom the
> readers/audience may not like, but who are important to the plot or
the
> growth of another character. In fact, if you make all your characters
> likable, the story will be excruciatingly dull. It's much better to
> make the characters interesting. And I find all of the characters in
> Utena interesting, with the exception of Kanae, Ms.
Underdeveloped-Personality.
Maybe, but I tell you, in that last scene with her and Akio in the
Planetarium, with him feeding her apple slices, what she looked like...
I couldn't have felt sorrier for her, she looked like she was trapped in
a nightmare and couldn't wake up...
Jiras Jiros Jires
That scene made my blood run cold...
>
> I know I "baa" occasionally, but only as a joke. I wouldn't seriously
> want to see Shiori expurgated from the series. I recognize her
> importance to Juri's character development. In the manga, without
> Shiori, Juri is flat out boring. (In the manga, I found Chu-Chu more
> appealing than Juri!) I probably wouldn't be friends with Shiori in
> real life, but then, attractive as I find Juri in the series, if she
> were a real person I'd probably find her far too intimidating to be
approachable.
>
> --Anj
>
> --
> The cat ate my signature fil
Alan Harnum
> Anj <amar...@radiks.net> wrote:
> > As a writer I agree on the importance of having characters whom the
> > readers/audience may not like, but who are important to the plot or
> the
> > growth of another character. In fact, if you make all your characters
> > likable, the story will be excruciatingly dull. It's much better to
> > make the characters interesting. And I find all of the characters in
> > Utena interesting, with the exception of Kanae, Ms.
> Underdeveloped-Personality.
>
> Maybe, but I tell you, in that last scene with her and Akio in the
> Planetarium, with him feeding her apple slices, what she looked like...
> I couldn't have felt sorrier for her, she looked like she was trapped in
> a nightmare and couldn't wake up...
Actually, it's not just Kanae and Akio in there, as someone else pointed
out to me some time ago when I brought this scene up. There are clearly
three hands in the scene with Kanae. Anthy's there too.
God only knows _what_ they're getting up to with poor Kanae...
Ciao,
-Alan Harnum
Alan Harnum
> Kionon (SailorTerra) <sailo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > As one takes flack, one can give it as
> > well. It's the nature of fandom. We all wish to put our characters
> > first, and those that get in the way of this suffer, if only in an
> > online bickering back and forth. I may hate Shiori, but that does not
> > mean I hate all Shiori lovers. I am, as you noted this character, a
> > Wesley Crusher FAN, but that doesn't mean all Wes fans are
> > automatically good and benevolant in my eyes. Sure, I do it to belong.
> > We all do. Human nature is to create solidary associations. We are
> > united under a common viewpoint. What that viewpoint is is unimportant,
> > as long as we find those who justify being right, and we do not violate
> > the rights of others.
>
> Now, see, I've never been able to fully get behind that viewpoint. What
> you're essentially saying here is that the point of the Shiori Death
> Advocates isn't to hate Shiori, it's just to be a group, and that you'd be
> equally much a part of the group if it were, say, the Anti-Kozue League,
> or the Lets All Kick Annoying Akio Around Society, or the Young Ohtori
> Republicans for that matter. If 'what that viewpoint is is unimportant,'
> than the only important thing is being part of a group, right?
You're apparently getting the same feeling from this that I am, Scott.
I can't say I particularly being lumped in with people who join a group
just to belong by statements about it being "human nature". I refuse
under any circumstances to associate myself with a group espousing a
viewpoint I don't happen to agree with just to feel as though I belong
somewhere.
Moreover, I find the basic statement itself, that viewpoint is
unimportant, so long as a) "we find those who justify being right" (I'm
not sure what this means, but it sounds to me like an argument for the
validity of opinions simply due to their mass acclaim, which I reject)
and b) "we do not violate the rights of others", to be fairly silly, as
it implies (taking examples to their most extreme for purposes of making
my point) that it's equally justifiable to belong to a white supremacist
group as it is to belong to the Girl Scouts.
Tolaris
> Tolaris <tol...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:48:31 GMT, Kionon wrote:
>>
>> >This of course, requires a counter-essay, and I don't mean about
>> >Shiori. I mean about groups of fandom in general. I hate Shiori, and
>> >there are those who love her. However, if you think that I'll let those
>> >feelings cause me to actually hurt someone, mentally of physically,
>> >then you are sadly mistake. [..]
>> >
>> >Make things clearer?
>> --
>> I think you miss the point...to make it more simple:
>> [seriously] hating Shiori to the point one wants to see her
>> dead is as stupid, as [seriously] hating Chibiusa to the
>> point one wants to see her dead...since the typical reasons
>> to hate Shiori are as silly as the ones of the Chibiusa
>> haters...hth.
>
>Certainly, they're silly, but that isn't MY point.
--
I can see it...well, i guess it's ok,[after all, gods forbid
there's a debate on the usenet that stays on same topic for
more than three messages.] just wondering why you'd consider
it a counter-essay to Scott's original post, when you didn't
really address any of his points...oh well.
>And I'm not serious.
>Most likely, if Shiori was real, I'd deal, and if Chibi-usa was real,
>unless she was being physically attacked, or verbally attacked to such
>an extent that is not proper to do to a small child, I wouldn't risk my
>life. They're just ink, people. If I've come off as ACTUALLY thinking
>that Chibi-usa is God in a religious way, and that Shiori is Lucifer
>himself, that you might believe I believe that in real life, I have
>given the wrong impression. I'm only a zealot at cons and online,
>because that's the reputation I have aquired. I should like to dispense
>with any pretense that my online persona is exactly like my offline
>persona, at least offline in that I am not in any way associated with
>Anime. If the situation does not warrent Otakudom, I will not waste the
>energy, what's the point?
--
See, i don't really buy the whole "I may be Mr.Hyde online,
but in rl i'm just Dr.Jekyll" philosophy... perhaps because
one'd have to be a serious case of multiple personality in
order to pull it off. So...if. for example. one regularly
acts like obsessive moron online,[which is impression a
typical Chibi-usa hater gives] i'll rather believe it's part
of their rl character, even though in rl they may not expose
it for whatever reason...
>> Tolaris
>> idly noting that, on the other hand, there's noting wrong
>> with hating characters for valid reasons... :P
>
>Who decides what is valid, my dear Tolaris? You?
--
"It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it." =P
Seriously though...you can as well ask, who decides what is
a crime, what's a felony...what's neither....and on what
basis we classify these...
>No, this is why we
>have democracy. We are all entitled to our opinions.
--
Democracy doesn't have /that much/ to do with being entitled
to one's opinions...and if it did, well..then i'd be equally
entitled to have [and express] my opinion on your opinion...
But..this is sort of irrelevant, because..maybe you indeed
have the democracy, dearie. but on the 'net, it's anarchy.
Tolaris
_alt_.fan.utena...not d.fan.utena. -.^
Alan Harnum
being
completed, and before I could properly qualify some of my statements.
Scott Johnson wrote:
> Kionon (SailorTerra) <sailo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > As one takes flack, one can give it as
> > well. It's the nature of fandom. We all wish to put our characters
> > first, and those that get in the way of this suffer, if only in an
> > online bickering back and forth. I may hate Shiori, but that does not
> > mean I hate all Shiori lovers. I am, as you noted this character, a
> > Wesley Crusher FAN, but that doesn't mean all Wes fans are
> > automatically good and benevolant in my eyes. Sure, I do it to belong.
> > We all do. Human nature is to create solidary associations. We are
> > united under a common viewpoint. What that viewpoint is is unimportant,
> > as long as we find those who justify being right, and we do not violate
> > the rights of others.
>
> Now, see, I've never been able to fully get behind that viewpoint. What
> you're essentially saying here is that the point of the Shiori Death
> Advocates isn't to hate Shiori, it's just to be a group, and that you'd
be
> equally much a part of the group if it were, say, the Anti-Kozue League,
> or the Lets All Kick Annoying Akio Around Society, or the Young Ohtori
> Republicans for that matter. If 'what that viewpoint is is unimportant,'
> than the only important thing is being part of a group, right?
You're apparently getting the same feeling from this that I am, Scott.
I can't say I particularly being lumped in with people who join a group
just to belong by statements about it being "human nature". I refuse
under any circumstances to associate myself with a group espousing a
viewpoint I don't happen to agree with just to feel as though I belong
somewhere.
Moreover, I find the basic statement itself, that viewpoint is
unimportant, so long as a) "we find those who justify being right" (I'm
not sure what this means, but it sounds to me like an argument for the
validity of opinions simply due to their mass acclaim, which I reject)
and b) "we do not violate the rights of others", to be fairly silly, as
it implies (taking examples to their most extreme for purposes of making
my point) that it's equally justifiable to belong to a white supremacist
group as it is to belong to the Girl Scouts, just as long as you're not
hurting anyone or violating their rights.
For a multitude of reasons, which I could get into but probably
shouldn't
have to, I don't agree with this viewpoint. By associating with a
group,
whatever its views, we lend those views a certain degree of credence by
choosing to associate with the group; thus, viewpoint _is_ profoundly
important, because we should only associate with groups whose viewpoint
we
actually support. Doing otherwise does damage to ourselves, and to the
group.
Again, I must qualify: I'm not comparing the SDAs by any means to white
supremacist groups, I'm merely pointing out that you can use this
"viewpoint doesn't matter" argument to justify membership in them as
well,
one of the reasons that makes me disagree with the basic statement.
> > I have no wish to
> > cause violence. I just have wish to makes me views plain fairly, and in
> > an arean where others recognize me as right, even though some do not.
>
> > Make things clearer?
>
> I've always agreed with the basic thrust of this -- that it's a
relatively
> harmless pastime. But what did you think of the main thrusts of my
> argument -- that it's not a particularly interesting or useful pastime,
> and that Shiori herself is more a character to be pitied than hated?
> That's what I was really more interested in discussing.
I think that's been more or less conceded by the refusal of anyone on
the
SDA side to stand up and give a rebuttal argument, to say just _why_
Shiori
is so horrible a character that calls for her death are justified.
The feeling I'm getting is that the SDAs seem to think it's amusing or
harmless to engage in this activity. I'm generally in agreement with
that;
they're certainly not hurting anyone by putting "Shiori Death
Advocates!"
in their .sig, any more than the people with "Wakaba Genki Preservation
Society" are.
However, I also feel that blind hatred and dogmatic collectivism are
those
things regardless what they may be in relation to. Character death
advocacy groups emphasize for me a lot of the things I don't like
about anime fandom (about fandom in general, for that matter): its
tendency to ignore series canon in favour of fan canon, its tendency to
simplify complex issues (particularly in regards to Utena, which thrives
on
complexity and ambiguity), and its fondness for ignoring facts of the
series that it finds inconvenient to its particular personal viewpoint
(all
the various tags of "slut", "whore", "tramp" and otherwise that I've
seen
to Shiori find no justification in the series, unless you want to take
the
frankly antiquated viewpoint that any sixteen year-old girl who sleeps
with
her boyfriend is a whore--this without even getting into the
extentuating
circumstances of the situation).
Perhaps I take this matter too seriously, but words carry a great deal
of
weight for me. What we say should be a reflection of ourselves, not
merely
of the viewpoint espoused by groups we join merely for the purposes of
belonging. And, just as the SDAs are quite free to express their
viewpoint
in a public forum, I'm free to express my disagreement with that
viewpoint.
Ciao,
-Alan Harnum
Slithy Tove
wrote:
Really? I need to watch that again. I don't see how that can be: Anthy
is outside the door at the time, preventing Nanami from entering. (A
great scene, BTW, very spooky.) This smells like a continuity error to
me.
But the apple is a very interesting symbol. There is another famous
drugged apple in Western cartoon media used by a witch to put someone
to sleep. And the writer and director were clearly very much aware of
the Western images of the witch: the shadow-play girls' witch is a
spittin' image of the queen-as-witch in Sleeping Beauty: an old, bent
crone, with a long nose and even a wart on it, IIRC.
== Tove
--
Try to be nice to people, avoid eating fat,
read a good book every now and then, get some walking in,
and try to live together in peace and harmony with
people of all creeds and nations.
Anj
jiras_ji...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <39D1E5F2...@radiks.net>,
> Anj <amar...@radiks.net> wrote:
> >
> > Scott Johnson wrote:
> > --snip--
> >
> > *clap*clap* A very well reasoned essay.
> >
> > As a writer I agree on the importance of having characters whom the
> > readers/audience may not like, but who are important to the plot or
> the
> > growth of another character. In fact, if you make all your characters
> > likable, the story will be excruciatingly dull. It's much better to
> > make the characters interesting. And I find all of the characters in
> > Utena interesting, with the exception of Kanae, Ms.
> Underdeveloped-Personality.
>
> Maybe, but I tell you, in that last scene with her and Akio in the
> Planetarium, with him feeding her apple slices, what she looked like...
> I couldn't have felt sorrier for her, she looked like she was trapped in
> a nightmare and couldn't wake up...
>
> Jiras Jiros Jires
> That scene made my blood run cold...
Oh, I felt sorry for Kanae in that scene, but honestly, no more than if
she had been an unnamed background student. She really didn't get much
in the way of character development. She always felt very flat. I
think Aiko and Yuuko got more character development than her, and I
can't even remember which one is which of those two.
--Anj
--
"You are strange and off-putting. Go now." --Dracula to Xander (Buffy
the Vampire Slayer)
KCR
was caught sneaking into the Arena Forest, and in a desperate attempt
to make up a plausible story, said:
>Everyone please ignore the other post; it was sent accidentally before
>being
>completed, and before I could properly qualify some of my statements.
Ah, we'll just point and laugh . . .
I'm with you on this one. I always have been a loner anyway, so it's
fairly easy for me to disassociate myself from social groups that I
dislike for whatever reason. I know that some people would wither and
die without social interaction, but I've always held "followers" in
the profoundest contempt. I'm talking about the people who scurry
around the fringes of an "in" group, behaving in ways they aren't
comfortable with or know aren't really "right" just to ingratiate
themselves with the leaders of the group. Peer pressure is a powerful
force, but it's not an excuse that satisfies me at all.
>Moreover, I find the basic statement itself, that viewpoint is
>unimportant, so long as a) "we find those who justify being right" (I'm
>not sure what this means, but it sounds to me like an argument for the
>validity of opinions simply due to their mass acclaim, which I reject)
Religious fanatics and Animal-rights activists pretend that they're
right, too, which drives me berserk. In fact, any group that develops
their own little philosophy and then goes around shouting it from the
rooftops, despite obvious glaring errors in logic, drives me berserk.
>and b) "we do not violate the rights of others", to be fairly silly, as
>it implies (taking examples to their most extreme for purposes of making
>my point) that it's equally justifiable to belong to a white supremacist
>group as it is to belong to the Girl Scouts, just as long as you're not
>hurting anyone or violating their rights.
Hey! I used to be a Girl Scout, and my rights were violated on a
regular basis. I *hated* wearing that stupid outfit! :P :)
However, being able to sell 300 boxes of cookies and walk away with
half a dozen nifty prizes every year was kind of my revenge . . .
>For a multitude of reasons, which I could get into but probably shouldn't
>have to, I don't agree with this viewpoint. By associating with a group,
>whatever its views, we lend those views a certain degree of credence by
>choosing to associate with the group; thus, viewpoint _is_ profoundly
>important, because we should only associate with groups whose viewpoint we
>actually support. Doing otherwise does damage to ourselves, and to the
>group.
Hear, hear. It's like saying that you're not responsible for a
politician's misbehavior, even though you voted for him.
>Again, I must qualify: I'm not comparing the SDAs by any means to white
>supremacist groups,
Geez, I hope not. I mean, those people all have purple and pink and
blue and green hair, evidently their natural colors . . . I don't
think the Aryan race would like that. >D
>I'm merely pointing out that you can use this
>"viewpoint doesn't matter" argument to justify membership in them as well,
>one of the reasons that makes me disagree with the basic statement.
Agreeing with this agrees with me. See my above mini-rant against
"followers" . . .
>> > I have no wish to
>> > cause violence. I just have wish to makes me views plain fairly, and in
>> > an arean where others recognize me as right, even though some do not.
>>
>> > Make things clearer?
>>
>> I've always agreed with the basic thrust of this -- that it's a relatively
>> harmless pastime. But what did you think of the main thrusts of my
>> argument -- that it's not a particularly interesting or useful pastime,
>> and that Shiori herself is more a character to be pitied than hated?
>> That's what I was really more interested in discussing.
>
>I think that's been more or less conceded by the refusal of anyone on the
>SDA side to stand up and give a rebuttal argument, to say just _why_ Shiori
>is so horrible a character that calls for her death are justified.
To be honest, after I asked "Why is she called 'the goat'?" and got a
general murmur of confusion in response, I drew the conclusion that it
*was* a reflection of "scapegoat." She's not likeable because she
wasn't really *made* to be likeable. Yes, we rally around Juri to
decry her "tormentor" Shiori, but the point's already been made that
Juri is a far more powerful and three-dimensional character for having
Shiori in the picture.
<SMALL SPOILER>
Movie Shiori is far more of a contemptible, disgusting bitch than TV
Shiori, IMHO. In the series, Shiori is more passive, more caught up
in events beyond her control. In the movie, she is actively working
against Juri and Utena/Anthy; she urges Touga against Juri, then meets
Juri in the garage to exhort her to fight Utena, and finally chases
after Anthy and the Utena car. To me, the most telling scenes are
similar, and yet wildly different--TV Shiori in the elevator, finding
that Juri's locket holds her picture and crying out against it, and
Movie Shiori calmly telling Touga that she's seen the picture in the
locket and is disgusted by Juri because of it. TV Shiori is driven to
her rejection of Juri by the effects of Mikage's elevator; Movie
Shiori has no such excuse for her rejection of Juri, and this
calculated behavior intensifies the animosity against her.
TV Shiori can be forgiven her sin against Juri--which was committed,
after all, under duress--and permitted to follow her; Movie Shiori,
who acted of her own accord, must be punished for her sins, and thus
she is destroyed.
>The feeling I'm getting is that the SDAs seem to think it's amusing or
>harmless to engage in this activity. I'm generally in agreement with that;
>they're certainly not hurting anyone by putting "Shiori Death Advocates!"
>in their .sig, any more than the people with "Wakaba Genki Preservation
>Society" are.
There's a fine line there, though . . . it ties back into the whole
"fictional character" thing. I don't mind people who are fans or
detractors of characters I dislike or am fond of, respectively, but
when someone starts putting "real" slurs in their sig, problems start
cropping up.
>However, I also feel that blind hatred and dogmatic collectivism are those
>things regardless what they may be in relation to. Character death
>advocacy groups emphasize for me a lot of the things I don't like
>about anime fandom (about fandom in general, for that matter): its
>tendency to ignore series canon in favour of fan canon, its tendency to
>simplify complex issues (particularly in regards to Utena, which thrives on
>complexity and ambiguity), and its fondness for ignoring facts of the
>series that it finds inconvenient to its particular personal viewpoint (all
>the various tags of "slut", "whore", "tramp" and otherwise that I've seen
>to Shiori find no justification in the series, unless you want to take the
>frankly antiquated viewpoint that any sixteen year-old girl who sleeps with
>her boyfriend is a whore--this without even getting into the extentuating
>circumstances of the situation).
I think that "slut" and similar insults directed against her are just
reflections of society's way of labeling those we dislike. Sexual
promiscuity, perceived or real, is still not well-received in most
quarters, and so calling a girl a "slut" or "whore" is simply an
expression of contempt, just like any other insult. I've been called
a slut myself, with no justification (I am very much monogamous), but
I have also used the terms myself to describe females that I dislike.
It's no different than referring to a male as "bastard" or "son of a
bitch," both of which also point back toward the promiscuity issue
(and, tellingly enough, indicate more contempt for one's mother or
both parents than anything else).
Kozue could be perceived as more of a "slut" in the real sense, simply
because of her obvious behavior and comments like "Oh, I didn't get a
new boyfriend, I just added one."
>Perhaps I take this matter too seriously, but words carry a great deal of
>weight for me.
"Words are the core of thought. Without words, there *is* no
thought."
>What we say should be a reflection of ourselves, not merely
>of the viewpoint espoused by groups we join merely for the purposes of
>belonging. And, just as the SDAs are quite free to express their viewpoint
>in a public forum, I'm free to express my disagreement with that viewpoint.
And thank you for doing so in an articulate fashion, rather than
spewing a one or two-word comment and believing it's not going to
offend people. :)
I still don't like Shiori, but even if she were a *real* person, I
wouldn't go after her with a gun. I've got enough *real* people
already that have earned more of my hatred and contempt, and for more
reasons.
>Ciao,
>-Alan Harnum
--Chris Rain
"Bad Utena fanfics are out there. I'm just the person to take them down."
Deed-holder of the Satellite of Revolution
http://www.mindspring.com/~khabal/rst3k.htm
Proud Member of the Shiori Death Advocates!
Scortia
James Helferty wrote:
> Scortia wrote:
> > Tom Cheng wrote:
> > > Scott Johnson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "The goat shall carry on itself
> > > > all their sins to a solitary place..."*
> > > >
> > > > Over time, I've seen a lot of venom being directed at one single character
> > > > in Utena.
> > >
> > > Yeah, probably.
> > >
> > > Actually, I think TV Akio and Touga are much more reprehensible people
> > > than Shiori, because she is small, weak, lonely, and kind of pathetic,
> > > while those two are powerful and purposefully manipulative and
> > > deceitful.
> >
> > <kills Touga> He's just a stupid playboy. ;P <flees Karyn, Lauren, fangirls...>
> > I was glad to see him with Shiori in the movie. They fit well together.
>
> I think he's the perfect evil villain, though.
No way... he's Akio's bitch. He is living in Akio's shadow... WILLINGLY.. that is
never something for a perfect villain. Now, if he tried to seduce Akio into bed then
sex him to death (God-willing) ... THAT'd be a great villain and a great irony. ^o^
> The most important part
> of his identity is that he IS so manipulative. What school doesn't have
> the extremely popular playboy who's a two-faced moral-less manipulator?
> And since when has such behaviour ever stopped such a person from making
> great inroads into politics..?
Doesn't mean I gotta like him ;P
>
>
> Scott, ever considered writing an essay on how much Touga and Clinton
> have in common..? ^.-
MWAHAHAHHAHAHAH! I like that!
>
>
> You've gotta love movie Akio, though. I think he's probably the most
> pathetic character I have ever seen--most pathetically hilarious, that
> is. :)
<nod> He's just so cute in the movie. ^.^
>
>
> > > Maybe I just mock Shiori because it's fun, kind of like mocking Canada.
> > > I would much rather live in Canada than, say, Bosnia, but it's just fun
> > > to make fun of Canada.
> >
> > rotflmao.. that is my philosophical quote of the week. ^^
>
> Cut it out, eh? I don't see what's so funny aboot it. ;P
>
> (..ZnM-chan made fun of my Canadian accent.. ;.;)
I wanna live in Canada ;_;
Tom Cheng
>
> I wanna live in Canada ;_;
Good lord, why?
Kionon
Tom Cheng <tkc...@home.com> wrote:
> Scortia wrote:
> >
> > I wanna live in Canada ;_;
>
> Good lord, why?
I totally have to ask the same question, Scortia-dear. Why distance
yourtself from even more. Louisiana is far enough away already. If you
moved to Canada I couldn't even drive there quickly @_@
> --
> Tom Cheng, #1 Celes and Galaxia fan
> tkc...@home.com
> http://members.home.net/tkcheng "I understand your opinion,
> ----------- NOW PLAYING ----------- I just don't care."
> Outer Senshi Doom | Galaxia-sama
> Project SING: Saturn Is Not Goth -Jedah
> Soul Calibur Ivy and Mitsurugi FAQs
> Tekken 2 combos and multipart FAQs
> The only Celes Chere's home
>
--
Kionon (SailorTerra)
Protector of the Paragon of Pinkness
Denouncer of the Goat
Cardinal of the Church of Miki
Proud member of the Shiori Death Advocates!
UtenaCode(1.0) U:5++ F:Mi+++++++Ut++:pSC D:Na--Sh---> X:[*]-:7+
M:f"Ojisama/The Sunlit Garden"
Scott Johnson
> Scott Johnson wrote:
>> Kionon (SailorTerra) <sailo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> Now, see, I've never been able to fully get behind that viewpoint. What
>> you're essentially saying here is that the point of the Shiori Death
>> Advocates isn't to hate Shiori, it's just to be a group, and that you'd
> be
>> equally much a part of the group if it were, say, the Anti-Kozue League,
>> or the Lets All Kick Annoying Akio Around Society, or the Young Ohtori
>> Republicans for that matter. If 'what that viewpoint is is unimportant,'
>> than the only important thing is being part of a group, right?
> You're apparently getting the same feeling from this that I am, Scott.
> I can't say I particularly being lumped in with people who join a group
> just to belong by statements about it being "human nature". I refuse
> under any circumstances to associate myself with a group espousing a
> viewpoint I don't happen to agree with just to feel as though I belong
> somewhere.
In my experience, many things we call 'human nature' are anything but --
they're just the circumstances of the time. At a bare minimum, there are
exceptions to just about any quality categorized under 'human nature'
(though some basic things like breathing and walking upright I'll gladly
concede). There have been entire societies based around ideas of 'human
nature' vastly different from ours, and many of our ideas would look
insane to them, as theirs might to us.
Humans are to a certain extent socially oriented, but the extent and
nature of it varies greatly from person to person. Some people would go
insane if they could talk to less than six of their friends in a day,
while others are quite content to have a brief chat with a human once a
year, then get back to their astronomical research or whatever. Some
people need groups to give them an identity, while others find joining
groups robs them of their identity. I'd hesitate to find a single thread
of 'human nature' in there.
> Moreover, I find the basic statement itself, that viewpoint is
> unimportant, so long as a) "we find those who justify being right" (I'm
> not sure what this means, but it sounds to me like an argument for the
> validity of opinions simply due to their mass acclaim, which I reject)
> and b) "we do not violate the rights of others", to be fairly silly, as
> it implies (taking examples to their most extreme for purposes of making
> my point) that it's equally justifiable to belong to a white supremacist
> group as it is to belong to the Girl Scouts, just as long as you're not
> hurting anyone or violating their rights.
> For a multitude of reasons, which I could get into but probably
> shouldn't
> have to, I don't agree with this viewpoint. By associating with a
> group,
> whatever its views, we lend those views a certain degree of credence by
> choosing to associate with the group; thus, viewpoint _is_ profoundly
> important, because we should only associate with groups whose viewpoint
> we
> actually support. Doing otherwise does damage to ourselves, and to the
> group.
Agreed. For me, it comes down to intellectual integrity. I have no
problems with someone legitimately disagreeing with me about
something. If they stay rational, civil, and open-minded, we could even
have some interesting discussions, even if we never manage to convert each
other. But I can't have a decent conversation with someone whose only
reason for supporting the party line is that it is, in fact, the party
line. We'd be operating on completely divergent sets of assumptions.
>>
>> I've always agreed with the basic thrust of this -- that it's a
> relatively
>> harmless pastime. But what did you think of the main thrusts of my
>> argument -- that it's not a particularly interesting or useful pastime,
>> and that Shiori herself is more a character to be pitied than hated?
>> That's what I was really more interested in discussing.
> I think that's been more or less conceded by the refusal of anyone on
> the
> SDA side to stand up and give a rebuttal argument, to say just _why_
> Shiori
> is so horrible a character that calls for her death are justified.
Anyone out there willing to rise to this challenge, actually? Don't just
say 'she's the goat!' or 'she's evil!' or 'she did bad things to Juri,
can't you see?' I'd love to see a well-thought-out condemnation of
Shiori, even if I'd never agree with it, just because it gives me a better
idea of why people would think it.
For that matter, is there anyone here who remembers how Shiori got branded
as 'the goat' in the first place? I checked Deja, but couldn't find an
obvious first use. Perhaps I should check the Duellists ML archive.
Definitely the less-pleasant aspects of fandom. (As a side note, I'd
actually be willing to argue that Shiori still could be a virgin at the
end of the series. Her relationship with her first boyfriend certainly
didn't seem that deep, and it's highly debatable just how far she and Ruka
got...)
> Perhaps I take this matter too seriously, but words carry a great deal
> of
> weight for me. What we say should be a reflection of ourselves, not
> merely
> of the viewpoint espoused by groups we join merely for the purposes of
> belonging. And, just as the SDAs are quite free to express their
> viewpoint
> in a public forum, I'm free to express my disagreement with that
> viewpoint.
As long as we all keep the debate civil, I think everyone should feel free
to say what they want. (And so far, everyone's been doing a good job at
that.)
James Helferty
> James Helferty wrote:
> > Scortia wrote:
> > >
> > > fangirls...>
> > > I was glad to see him with Shiori in the movie. They fit well together.
> >
> > I think he's the perfect evil villain, though.
>
> never something for a perfect villain. Now, if he tried to seduce Akio into bed then
> sex him to death (God-willing) ... THAT'd be a great villain and a great irony. ^o^
O_O;;;;
> > You've gotta love movie Akio, though. I think he's probably the most
> > pathetic character I have ever seen--most pathetically hilarious, that
> > is. :)
>
> <nod> He's just so cute in the movie. ^.^
Cute that he's pathetic, or cute-cute..? ^^;;;
> > (..ZnM-chan made fun of my Canadian accent.. ;.;)
>
> I wanna live in Canada ;_;
^.^v
Scortia
"Kionon (SailorTerra)" wrote:
> In article <39D3C320...@home.com>,
> Tom Cheng <tkc...@home.com> wrote:
> > Scortia wrote:
> > >
> > > I wanna live in Canada ;_;
> >
> > Good lord, why?
>
It's pretty... great climate... spaced out... I can avoid the government
by going off into the wilderness... closer to most fansubbers... AND
anything beats Louisiana. ;P
>
> I totally have to ask the same question, Scortia-dear. Why distance
> yourtself from even more. Louisiana is far enough away already. If you
> moved to Canada I couldn't even drive there quickly @_@
>
^^;;
Scortia
James Helferty wrote:
> Scortia wrote:
> > James Helferty wrote:
> > > Scortia wrote:
> > > >
> > > > <kills Touga> He's just a stupid playboy. ;P <flees Karyn, Lauren,
> > > > fangirls...>
> > > > I was glad to see him with Shiori in the movie. They fit well together.
> > >
> > > I think he's the perfect evil villain, though.
> >
> > No way... he's Akio's bitch. He is living in Akio's shadow... WILLINGLY.. that is
> > never something for a perfect villain. Now, if he tried to seduce Akio into bed then
> > sex him to death (God-willing) ... THAT'd be a great villain and a great irony. ^o^
>
> O_O;;;;
Nani? ^-^
>
>
> > > You've gotta love movie Akio, though. I think he's probably the most
> > > pathetic character I have ever seen--most pathetically hilarious, that
> > > is. :)
> >
> > <nod> He's just so cute in the movie. ^.^
>
> Cute that he's pathetic, or cute-cute..? ^^;;;
The former
>
>
> > > (..ZnM-chan made fun of my Canadian accent.. ;.;)
> >
> > I wanna live in Canada ;_;
>
> ^.^v
Eh?
James Helferty
> James Helferty wrote:
> > Scortia wrote:
> > > James Helferty wrote:
> > > > Scortia wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > fangirls...>
> > > > > I was glad to see him with Shiori in the movie. They fit well together.
> > > >
> > > > I think he's the perfect evil villain, though.
> > >
> > > never something for a perfect villain. Now, if he tried to seduce Akio into bed then
> > > sex him to death (God-willing) ... THAT'd be a great villain and a great irony. ^o^
> >
> > O_O;;;;
>
> Nani? ^-^
O_O;;;;
> > > > You've gotta love movie Akio, though. I think he's probably the most
> > > > pathetic character I have ever seen--most pathetically hilarious, that
> > > > is. :)
> > >
> > > <nod> He's just so cute in the movie. ^.^
> >
> > Cute that he's pathetic, or cute-cute..? ^^;;;
>
> The former
Drat. I'll hafta become pathetic, so I can git all tha chix too. :P
> > > > (..ZnM-chan made fun of my Canadian accent.. ;.;)
That reminds me... ^.^
http://www.adcritic.com/content/molson-canadian-no-doot-aboot-it.html
XD
> > > I wanna live in Canada ;_;
> >
> > ^.^v
>
> Eh?
One more potential Canadian. Hey, if you ever wanna try being one for a
weekend, I've got a spare room here that's not been in use since
Carrie-chan left.. (Come on! You know you wanna be Canadian... ^.-)
jiras_ji...@my-deja.com
sli...@pobox.com wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:04:13 GMT, Alan Harnum <har...@thekeep.org>
> wrote:
>
> >jiras_ji...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> Anj <amar...@radiks.net> wrote:
the
> >> > readers/audience may not like, but who are important to the plot
or
> >> the
> >> > growth of another character. In fact, if you make all your
characters
> >> > likable, the story will be excruciatingly dull. It's much better
to
> >> > make the characters interesting. And I find all of the
characters in
> >> > Utena interesting, with the exception of Kanae, Ms.
> >> Underdeveloped-Personality.
> >>
> >> Maybe, but I tell you, in that last scene with her and Akio in the
> >> Planetarium, with him feeding her apple slices, what she looked
like...
> >> I couldn't have felt sorrier for her, she looked like she was
trapped in
> >> a nightmare and couldn't wake up...
> >
pointed
> >out to me some time ago when I brought this scene up. There are
clearly
> >three hands in the scene with Kanae. Anthy's there too.
>
> Really? I need to watch that again. I don't see how that can be: Anthy
> is outside the door at the time, preventing Nanami from entering. (A
> great scene, BTW, very spooky.) This smells like a continuity error to
> me.
That WAS a great scene, with Nanami's smart mouth making Anthy loose
control for just a split second. You can see that Anthy is using all her
willpower to keep from striking Nanami with the big saw she's holding
(please don't hold back on our account, Anthy...)
>
> But the apple is a very interesting symbol. There is another famous
> drugged apple in Western cartoon media used by a witch to put someone
> to sleep. And the writer and director were clearly very much aware of
> the Western images of the witch: the shadow-play girls' witch is a
> spittin' image of the queen-as-witch in Sleeping Beauty: an old, bent
> crone, with a long nose and even a wart on it, IIRC.
But there is another legend associated with the apple that applies to
Utena: namely the apple of William Tell. William Tell was a Swiss
patriot who spoke out against the tyrrany of the Holy Roman Empire. For
his treason he was given two choices: shoot an apple off his son's head,
or be put to death himself, and we all know which choice he made. Just
as William Tell sacrificed his son to escape the executioner's axe, so
Akio let his sister bear the pain of the Million Swords, rather than
face the mob himself. Add to that the imagery of the Witch/Queen's
poisoned apple, and it becomes clear that the apple is symbolic of
Anthy, the sacrifice and the sacrificer. Images of an apple pierced with
a multitude of forks and the Kage Shoujou playing an eternal game of
William Tell in Ep. 11 seem to support this.
So why was Akio force-feeding apple to Kanae? Perhaps it was merely
symbolic of how he uses his sister to corrupt others, particularly the
Black Rose girls. But what disturbed me the most was Kanae's appearance:
gaunt and pale like a corpse, limp and pliant like a ragdoll. Bearing
the full brunt of Akio's corruption... it's no wonder. But who is going
to rescue her? Shiori has Jury, Kozue has Miki, Saionji has Touga,
Wakaba has Tatsuya, but who does Kanae have to protect her? Her mother?
No way out. THAT's what's so scary...
Jiras Jiros Jires
suddenly the movie 'American Pie' comes to mind...
>
> == Tove
> --
> Try to be nice to people, avoid eating fat,
> read a good book every now and then, get some walking in,
> and try to live together in peace and harmony with
> people o
ZnM doesn't contain FLESHY PART OF FRUT
> Scortia wrote:
> > Tom Cheng wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, I think TV Akio and Touga are much more reprehensible people
> > > than Shiori, because she is small, weak, lonely, and kind of pathetic,
> > > while those two are powerful and purposefully manipulative and
> > > deceitful.
> >
> > <kills Touga> He's just a stupid playboy. ;P <flees Karyn, Lauren,
fangirls...>
> > I was glad to see him with Shiori in the movie. They fit well together.
>
> I think he's the perfect evil villain, though. The most important part
> of his identity is that he IS so manipulative. What school doesn't have
> the extremely popular playboy who's a two-faced moral-less manipulator?
That description reminds me a bit more of Akio, actually. ^.^
> And since when has such behaviour ever stopped such a person from making
> great inroads into politics..?
>
> Scott, ever considered writing an essay on how much Touga and Clinton
> have in common..? ^.-
Clinton's a good president, dammit. >.<
> You've gotta love movie Akio, though. I think he's probably the most
> pathetic character I have ever seen--most pathetically hilarious, that
> is. :)
Nyaa... aa... AAAAAAAAAAAA!!! ^o^
> > > Maybe I just mock Shiori because it's fun, kind of like mocking
Canada.
> > > I would much rather live in Canada than, say, Bosnia, but it's just
fun
> > > to make fun of Canada.
> >
> > rotflmao.. that is my philosophical quote of the week. ^^
>
> Cut it out, eh? I don't see what's so funny aboot it. ;P
>
> (..ZnM-chan made fun of my Canadian accent.. ;.;)
But I said it was cute, too. Doesn't that count for anything? ^.^;
~ZnM
*************
Zoisite no Miko / Yukito no Miko / Hiko no Aisai
afu no ohtori akio and/or kiryuu nanami
Reply to nuriko_hime{at}hotmail{dot}com!
AIM & Yahoo! messenger == ZoiNoMiko
*************
Main page: http://www.carriesager.com
Bishounen Pit: http://go.to/the_pit
Card Captor Sakura: http://start.at/ynm
Cosplay: http://welcome.to/cosplay
*************
"This series is about capturing the various magical
cards running about, not about sexual relationships.
The various relationships you speak of are not conducive
to children's programming." -- Nelvana
*************
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
satur...@my-deja.com
"ZnM doesn't contain FLESHY PART OF FRUT" <Tree...@Kettle.grl>
caused SaturnOolaa to step out from her dark and imposing shadows by
saying:
<snip snip>
> *************
> "This series is about capturing the various magical
> cards running about, not about sexual relationships.
> The various relationships you speak of are not conducive
> to children's programming." -- Nelvana
> *************
This is off-topic, buuuut... THEY ACTUALLY SAID THAT???? o.O In
reference to what, exactly? Is there a copy of this running around
online? ^_^;;
SaturnOolaa
Member of nothing at all
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
>
jiras_ji...@my-deja.com
satur...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <39da7...@corp.newsfeeds.com>,
> "ZnM doesn't contain FLESHY PART OF FRUT" <Tree...@Kettle.grl>
> caused SaturnOolaa to step out from her dark and imposing shadows by
> saying:
>
> <snip snip>
> > *************
> > "This series is about capturing the various magical
> > cards running about, not about sexual relationships.
> > The various relationships you speak of are not conducive
> > to children's programming." -- Nelvana
> > *************
>
> This is off-topic, buuuut... THEY ACTUALLY SAID THAT???? o.O In
> reference to what, exactly? Is there a copy of this running around
> online? ^_^;;
It wouldn't suprise me...
Haruna and Michiru are suddenly 'cousins'...
Dead guys on DBZ go 'to another dimension'...
Its anime being perverted by America's (or, in this case Canada's)
screwed up Puritanical Christian morality, and I fear it...
I just wonder what FoxKids is going to do about Dilandau's 'secret'...
Jiras Jiros Jires
Thanks God for uncensored Gundam Wing on the Midnight Run...
Chris Kern does not HAVE VEGETABLE SALTY
FRUT" <Tree...@Kettle.grl> posted the following:
I just liked the nick too much :-)
James Helferty
O_O;;;;
> James-chan wrote:
>> Scortia wrote:
>>> Tom Cheng wrote:
>>>
>>>> Actually, I think TV Akio and Touga are much more reprehensible people
>>>> than Shiori, because she is small, weak, lonely, and kind of pathetic,
>>>> while those two are powerful and purposefully manipulative and
>>>> deceitful.
>>>
>>> <kills Touga> He's just a stupid playboy. ;P <flees Karyn, Lauren,
>>> fangirls...>
>>> I was glad to see him with Shiori in the movie. They fit well together.
>>
>> I think he's the perfect evil villain, though. The most important part
>> of his identity is that he IS so manipulative. What school doesn't have
>> the extremely popular playboy who's a two-faced moral-less manipulator?
>
> That description reminds me a bit more of Akio, actually. ^.^
Perhaps. I haven't seen too much of tv Akio yet, though. Just the
black rose saga, and him driving in his car once with his shirt buttons
preparing to disintegrate for some reason... o.x;
>> And since when has such behaviour ever stopped such a person from making
>> great inroads into politics..?
>>
>> Scott, ever considered writing an essay on how much Touga and Clinton
>> have in common..? ^.-
>
> Clinton's a good president, dammit. >.<
He's average.
There are no good presidents.
>> You've gotta love movie Akio, though. I think he's probably the most
>> pathetic character I have ever seen--most pathetically hilarious, that
>> is. :)
>
> Nyaa... aa... AAAAAAAAAAAA!!! ^o^
^o^;;
>>> rotflmao.. that is my philosophical quote of the week. ^^
>>
>> Cut it out, eh? I don't see what's so funny aboot it. ;P
>>
>> (..ZnM-chan made fun of my Canadian accent.. ;.;)
>
> But I said it was cute, too. Doesn't that count for anything? ^.^;
Of course it does! But you still made fun of my accent.. *^.^*;;;;
James
--
http://chat.carleton.ca/~jhelfert
ZnM doesn't contain FLESHY PART OF FRUT
> ZnM doesn't contain FLESHY PART OF FRUT wrote:
>
> O_O;;;;
You've seen the bad candy page, right?
[Touga]
> >>
> >> I think he's the perfect evil villain, though. The most important part
> >> of his identity is that he IS so manipulative. What school doesn't
have
> >> the extremely popular playboy who's a two-faced moral-less manipulator?
> >
> > That description reminds me a bit more of Akio, actually. ^.^
>
> Perhaps. I haven't seen too much of tv Akio yet, though. Just the
> black rose saga, and him driving in his car once with his shirt buttons
> preparing to disintegrate for some reason... o.x;
^o^
Akio. *.*
> >> And since when has such behaviour ever stopped such a person from
making
> >> great inroads into politics..?
> >>
> >> Scott, ever considered writing an essay on how much Touga and Clinton
> >> have in common..? ^.-
> >
> > Clinton's a good president, dammit. >.<
>
> He's average.
He works hard and is very intelligent. We're the only country in the world
who'd care about the sex thing. >.<
> There are no good presidents.
. . .
> >> You've gotta love movie Akio, though. I think he's probably the most
> >> pathetic character I have ever seen--most pathetically hilarious, that
> >> is. :)
> >
> > Nyaa... aa... AAAAAAAAAAAA!!! ^o^
>
> ^o^;;
*falls out a window laughing*
> >> (..ZnM-chan made fun of my Canadian accent.. ;.;)
> >
> > But I said it was cute, too. Doesn't that count for anything? ^.^;
>
> Of course it does! But you still made fun of my accent.. *^.^*;;;;
...but I still said it was cute. ^.^;;
~ZnM
*************
Zoisite no Miko / Yukito no Miko / Hiko no Aisai
afu no ohtori akio and/or kiryuu nanami
Reply to nuriko_hime{at}hotmail{dot}com!
AIM & Yahoo! messenger == ZoiNoMiko
*************
Main page: http://www.carriesager.com
Bishounen Pit: http://go.to/the_pit
Card Captor Sakura: http://start.at/ynm
Cosplay: http://welcome.to/cosplay
*************
"This series is about capturing the various magical
cards running about, not about sexual relationships.
The various relationships you speak of are not conducive
to children's programming." -- Nelvana
*************