The sword of Dios and other swords
anne....@free.fr
musing became a drabble
(http://la-mer-allee.livejournal.com/7041.html#cutid1), but I think it
is worthy of discussion.
In the mechanics of the Duel, we have, at first, Anthy taking Dios'
sword out of her own body. That was weird enough already.
However, through the seasons 2 and 3, we learn more about the mechanics
of swords-inside-people.
In the episode 15, Landscape Framed by Kozue, we learn this :
Mamiya: The Student Council members...
Mamiya: With their spirits, we might forge a sword powerful enough to
defeat Tenjou Utena.
Mamiya: That's what my Black Rose tells me.
Souji: However, they have all been defeated in Duels.
Souji: They are weak-hearted people.
Mamiya: There aren't many people who can fully control their hearts.
Mamiya: I'm sure it's particularly difficult for people of such young
age.
Mamiya: It would be far better to let their spirit swords be received
by someone else.
Mamiya: That way, a stronger Duelist can be born.
Souji: I understand.
Souji: For the sake of making you the Rose Bride, I'll consider it.
Souji: However, drawing their spirit swords requires a hand that can
capture their hearts
(quotes from Empty Movement http://www.ohtori.nu/scripts/)
So everyone have a "spirit sword" and it can be drawed out by someone
who has a hold on their heart. Which we could interprete in various
ways but seems to mean someone who loves them rather than someone who
is loved by them (unless we want to admit that, say, Saionji loves
Wakaba, disputable at best, and Touga loves Keiko, unlikely in any
cases)
Of course this is a thief, and something that is done by force, and
without consent. By season 3, the new way to fight is to bring your own
Rose Bride to draw out your spirit sword but then give it back to the
Duelist so they can fight with it.
However, back to the beginning, Anthy had the sword of Dios, what we
can assume is Dios' "spirit sword" in herself.
Why ?
I can see several hypothesis :
- The Sword of Dios was Anthy's spirit sword all along. She only lend
it to Dios at a time. But that power has always belonged to Anthy
herself.
- She took away Dios' sword when she "hid him away", and it was that
act that sundered Dios from his powers.
- The Sword of Dios is another kind of sword altogether, it has nothing
to do with the swords that Duellists use during the third season.
Care to discuss ? Do you see any other possibilities ?
shanejayell
so, how powerful could that be agasinst Dios and the others?
anne....@free.fr
shanejayell a écrit :
> So, for instance, could Utena draw her OWN spirit sword in battle?
I don't think she could. We've never seen anyone draw their own sword
to battle... Kanae had it taken away by Mikage, right ?
Of course we don't know how Mikage got the sword he used in his own
duel. Maybe "Mamiya" took it away for him, or maybe it was a regular
sword...
>And if
> so, how powerful could that be agasinst Dios and the others?
I think the association of Duellist and Rose Bride is stronger by
itself than someone fighting by themselves. Anthy being who she is can
give more power to swords of course, but even Ruka said that the Rose
Bride was a part of the Duel (though he might have said that only to
mess with Shiori)
Etrangere,
Kozue's Sans Culotte
shanejayell
:D
sephigirl
>
>
>
anne....@free.fr wrote:
<snip>
> So everyone have a "spirit sword" and it can be drawed out by someone
> who has a hold on their heart. Which we could interprete in various
> ways but seems to mean someone who loves them rather than someone who
> is loved by them (unless we want to admit that, say, Saionji loves
> Wakaba, disputable at best, and Touga loves Keiko, unlikely in any
> cases)
>
> Of course this is a thief, and something that is done by force, and
> without consent. By season 3, the new way to fight is to bring your own
> Rose Bride to draw out your spirit sword but then give it back to the
> Duelist so they can fight with it.
>
> However, back to the beginning, Anthy had the sword of Dios, what we
> can assume is Dios' "spirit sword" in herself.
>
> Why ?
>
duelist, but a hold on the "sheathe" by the duelist.
Wakaba's sword becomes strong because of what she sees or perceives to
see in Saionji's heart; Keiko longs for Touga's heart because she seems
something there that she wants. Therefore, by using the sword of the
one they "love," they become stronger. The become what they believe of
the person they're drawing from
Shiori sees Juri as strong, but she isn't
Wakaba sees Saionji as noble, but he isn't
Keiko sees Touga as a romantic hero, but he isn't
Kozue sees Miki as an innocent, but he isn't.
Mamiya sees Kanae - well, who knows . . .
Tsuwabuki sees Nanami as strong, but she isn't.
Or even it can be seen as a "drawing out" of their demons - what they
see, what they doubt - they don't "draw out" a soul sword that's
strong, because they've been twisted by Mikage (bite my tongue), the
sword they draw out is also twisted - it's the darker side of their
victims - Saionji's need to stop Anthy, Touga's haughter view of
others, Juri's doubts, Nanami's loss of control w/ her brother, etc.
So, Anthy's soul sword is at first strong, because Utena is good and
Utena believes in the good of Anthy.
Mikage's sword, I think, is his, drawn from his memories which he's
trying to stop and win over, but in the end, his soul sword is also
weak by the darkness within him.
Ramble, ramble, sorry - but it *is* a very interesting topic.
~Katherine
AFU no Touga-Keeper of his Sexuality
~Mikage's Prince
(also) Touga's Prince and Akio's Prince (as needed)
seph...@yahoo.com
anne....@free.fr
> see in Saionji's heart; Keiko longs for Touga's heart because she seems
> something there that she wants. Therefore, by using the sword of the
> one they "love," they become stronger. The become what they believe of
> the person they're drawing from
I like this ! It's a very interesting idea. Very in line with the idea
that people project their own issues into the Rose Bride in general.
> Mamiya sees Kanae - well, who knows . . .
A fool ? Maybe she envies her in a way ? Kanae is so much like all the
princesses that used to call up on Dios, it's not wonder Anthy hates
her.
> Tsuwabuki sees Nanami as strong, but she isn't.
I don't know about this one, Tsuwabuki seems to be rather realistic
about his opinion of Nanami.
Maybe he sees her as mature, especially sexually (but she isn't, as
prooves the Nanami's Egg episode)
> So, Anthy's soul sword is at first strong, because Utena is good and
> Utena believes in the good of Anthy.
So when the Sword of Dios disapears, is it because Utena stops
idealizing Anthy so much ?
And what about Utena's Sword, is it because Anthy starts seeing Utena
as her prince ?
> Mikage's sword, I think, is his, drawn from his memories which he's
> trying to stop and win over, but in the end, his soul sword is also
> weak by the darkness within him.
Awfully vague, but I see what you mean ^^
> Ramble, ramble, sorry - but it *is* a very interesting topic.
Not at all ! Ramble away, it's always fun ^^
Kevin Trainor
>>Wakaba's sword becomes strong because of what she sees or perceives to
>>see in Saionji's heart; Keiko longs for Touga's heart because she seems
>>something there that she wants. Therefore, by using the sword of the
>>one they "love," they become stronger. The become what they believe of
>>the person they're drawing from
>
>
> I like this ! It's a very interesting idea. Very in line with the idea
> that people project their own issues into the Rose Bride in general.
>
>
>>Mamiya sees Kanae - well, who knows . . .
>
>
> A fool ? Maybe she envies her in a way ? Kanae is so much like all the
> princesses that used to call up on Dios, it's not wonder Anthy hates
> her.
>
draw someone else's soul swords - they use normal swords in their duels.
>
>>Tsuwabuki sees Nanami as strong, but she isn't.
>
>
> I don't know about this one, Tsuwabuki seems to be rather realistic
> about his opinion of Nanami.
> Maybe he sees her as mature, especially sexually (but she isn't, as
> prooves the Nanami's Egg episode)
>
I think this is closer to the mark. That whole episode is about being
an adult, Tsuwabuki's frustration at not being an adult, and his
expectation that the Rose Bride will make him an adult. SKU meets "Big",
anyone?
>>So, Anthy's soul sword is at first strong, because Utena is good and
>>Utena believes in the good of Anthy.
>
>
> So when the Sword of Dios disapears, is it because Utena stops
> idealizing Anthy so much ?
>
> And what about Utena's Sword, is it because Anthy starts seeing Utena
> as her prince ?
>
The sword that Anthy draws from Utena in the third cycle of duels is
Utena's own soul sword. It was probably there all along, but there
was no reason to draw it until then.
There was a discussion thread on the soul swords -last year, I think?-
where people talked about the fact that the BR duelists drew the soul
swords from people who trusted them, and an analogy to rape was drawn,
but I don't remember all the details at this point.
>
>>Mikage's sword, I think, is his, drawn from his memories which he's
>>trying to stop and win over, but in the end, his soul sword is also
>>weak by the darkness within him.
>
>
> Awfully vague, but I see what you mean ^^
>
Mikage loses because Anthy/Mamiya betrays him and reveals the truth
to him at the climax of the duel. Of all the duellists, I think he
actually had the best chance of defeating Utena, but unfortunately
the scriptwriters were against him. ~_^
>
>>Ramble, ramble, sorry - but it *is* a very interesting topic.
>
> Not at all ! Ramble away, it's always fun ^^
>
Isn't it what we're all here for? ^_^
Kevin the Redneck Otaku,
AFU no Groundskeeper #2
Keeper of Juri's Rarely Seen Femme Side
UtenaCode [2.0]: U:6- F:Ju++ Shi+>:pBR D:Hi--> Na<- X:****:a: 1-39++,[AM]
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UTENA: I see your frothing insanity and raise you a phallic yet lesbian
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