Is the Eternal September over

[Jason Evans]

From wikipedia:

>
Eternal September or the September that never ended is Usenet slang for a
period beginning in September 1993, the month that Internet service
provider America Online (AOL) began offering Usenet access to its many
users, overwhelming the existing culture for online forums.

Before then, Usenet was largely restricted to colleges, universities, and
other research institutions. Every September, many incoming students
would acquire access to Usenet for the first time, taking time to become
accustomed to Usenet's standards of conduct and "netiquette". After a
month or so, these new users would either learn to comply with the
networks' social norms or tire of using the service.

Since then the popularity of the Internet has led to a constant stream of
new users. Hence, from the point of view of the early Usenet, the influx
of new users in September 1993 never ended.

Dave Fischer appears to have coined the term in a January 1994 post to
alt.folklore.computers: "It's moot now. September 1993 will go down in
net history as the September that never ended."
>

With the exception of those who use Usenet as a means of downloading
pirated material and who provide nothing of value to Usenet at all, is
the eternal september over and should we go back to the days of valuing
quality communication and netiquette? By being over, I mean the gradual
loss of interest in Usenet over centralized corporate platforms like
Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook.

I'm in the process of writing a new guide on netiquette for beginners
based on RFC1855, Spaf's "A Primer on How to Work With the USENET
Community", and a few other documents but without the legalistic nannying
that many "Codes of Conduct" have.

If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?

JE

[Helm]

I've known about usenet for along time, but Ive only started using it
very recently due to the censorship from Big Tech

What I like about Usenet and email is that its uncensored so I can
speak freely with no subtle shadowbanning or algorithmitic manipulation
of content feeds.

Facebook is not really a replacement for Usenet

Twitter and especially Reddit try to replace Usenet more than anything
and they do it terribly.

Also with most groups unmoderated, there are no moderators making
decisions on a whim on no evidence whatsover.

With a big enough newsgroup however, I support moderation.

Even if one server removes a post, it will still be avaliable on other
servers, hence it is censorship proof.

Yes Spam is a problem on Usenet, but its nothing that a slightly
modified rspamd/SpamAssasin and a killfile can't handle.

I think the biggest problem with Usenet was getting a newsgroup created.

I would like to see more nntp2imap gateways start to pop up. There is
no good newsreader for iOS and I would be delighted if I could use the
Mail app on my iPhone to read Usenet. A nntp2imap gateway would make
Usenet accessible on almost every device or phone with no additional
software needed.

Also email and usenet are a standard, so big companies like Google and
Highwinds Media along with small companies can compete on the same
level - unlike a centralized and closed social media network.

[Dan Espen]

No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.

I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19.
For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school.
It's going to get worse, much worse.

--
Dan Espen

[Dave Garrett]

In article <rgmj4m$tq3$1...@dont-email.me>, dan1...@gmail.com says...

> No, definitely not over.
> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.

I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile,
the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of
incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their
apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.

--
Dave

[Dan Espen]

Yeah, don't know why I hang around there.
Kill files barely make a dent.
I guess I like the subject of home repair and I keep hoping they'll
go somewhere else.

--
Dan Espen

[Bob Eager]

WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

[Jason Evans]

On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 11:06:33 -0400, Helm wrote:

> I think the biggest problem with Usenet was getting a newsgroup created.

If you want a Big-8 newsgroup to be created, check out:
https://www.big-8.org/wiki/How_to_Create_a_New_Big-8_Newsgroup

We will work with you if you want to go through it.

> I would like to see more nntp2imap gateways start to pop up. There is no
> good newsreader for iOS and I would be delighted if I could use the Mail
> app on my iPhone to read Usenet. A nntp2imap gateway would make Usenet
> accessible on almost every device or phone with no additional software
> needed.

NNTP/NNTPS are open standards so anyone can make an app or a gateway. The
problem is that not enough people see the benefit of it to put in the
time. A lot of app creators won't do it unless they know that they will
make a big enough profit.

[Dan Espen]

Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:

> On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 18:53:03 -0500, Dave Garrett wrote:
>
>> In article <rgmj4m$tq3$1...@dont-email.me>, dan1...@gmail.com says...
>>
>>> No, definitely not over.
>>> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
>>
>> I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile,
>> the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of
>> incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their
>> apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
>> alt.politics.home.repair.
>
> WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...

From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.

--
Dan Espen

[Sn!pe]

Re: uk.*

Limiting crossposts to three or fewer groups works wonders, then
a handful of poster-specific killfile entries will do the trick.

Greetings, Usenet fans. Usenet may be moribund but it isn't dead
yet; there is even a glimmer of renaissance.

Usenet's greatest strength is its distributed server nature that
"interprets censorship as damage and routes around it". It's in
the nature of the beast that being free of censorship Usenet can't
silence noisy pests, nor should it. Fortunately, a well managed
killfile and a little self-control can deal with that chore.

IMO Usenet is by far superior to FB, Twitter and Reddit too.
There are very few web forums that can better it.

--
^Ï^ <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

My pet rock Gordon just is.

[Bob Eager]

No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...

[Dan Espen]

Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:

> On Sun, 09 Aug 2020 08:25:34 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>> Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:
>>
>>> On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 18:53:03 -0500, Dave Garrett wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <rgmj4m$tq3$1...@dont-email.me>, dan1...@gmail.com says...
>>>>
>>>>> No, definitely not over.
>>>>> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
>>>>
>>>> I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
>>>> killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to
>>>> the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from
>>>> their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
>>>> alt.politics.home.repair.
>>>
>>> WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
>>
>> From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
>> A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
>> Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
>
> No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...

A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict
and putting the EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union
going.

I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the curse of the Tower of Babel.

--
Dan Espen

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2020-08-09, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:
>>
>> No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
>
> A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
> Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict
> and putting the EU on an even basis with the US.
> Now if we could get a South American and an African union
> going.

The African Union exists, we just don't hear much about it generally.

Niklas
--
If you demonstrate that you can cook superior food using an induction
stove, is that an instance of proof by induction?

[J. Clarke]

On Sun, 09 Aug 2020 10:40:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com>

My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.

[Bob Eager]

It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

That's a very naive view, ignoring corporate vested interests.

>>>I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the
>>>curse of the Tower of Babel.
>>
>> My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
>> but with the execution.
>
> It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
> Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
> restriction.
>

Stop trying to get a rise out of Sn!pe. You're all bad boys.

PS add radio-amateur to the list for longest bickering match ever.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Sn!pe]

It's faintly amusing that some here were complaining about
politics taking over Usenet. Maybe it's just British humour.

[Peter Flass]

At one point I thought a closer union of English-speaking countries would
be good - of course now no one wants to have anything to do with us, we’re
an international pariah. Something like the “five eyes”: US, Canada, UK,
Australia and New Zealand?

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

It seems to me they can’t decide if they’re fish or fowl.

--
Pete

[J. Clarke]

In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work in 50 countries

[Rink]

Op 8-8-2020 om 22:14 schreef Andreas Kohlbach:
> On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:16:09 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

>>
>> Jason Evans <jse...@mailfence.com> writes:
>>
>>> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
>>> living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
>>> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
>>> start using Usenet?
>>
>> No, definitely not over.
>> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
>

> Besides that it's mostly spam flooding Newsgroups today. Nothing to do
> with AOL users. AFAIK AOL does no longer offer usenet access. It's over.
>

Usenet is not from AOL.
There are many usenet providers,
yes less than 10 years ago, but still enough.

Rink

[Rink]

Op 9-8-2020 om 19:18 schreef J. Clarke:

Those are called States and the form together one country.....

[J. Clarke]

Doesn't matter what you call it, each has its own laws, its own
courts, and these days its own king.

[Dan Espen]

Niklas Karlsson <ank...@yahoo.se> writes:

> On 2020-08-09, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:
>>>
>>> No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
>>
>> A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
>> Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict
>> and putting the EU on an even basis with the US.
>> Now if we could get a South American and an African union
>> going.
>
> The African Union exists, we just don't hear much about it generally.

Somehow, it got by me.

The African Union is a continental union consisting of 55 member
states located on the continent of Africa. The AU was announced in the
Sirte Declaration in Sirte, Libya, on 9 September 1999, calling for
the establishment of the African Union.

Maybe this was why:

Founder: Muammar al-Gaddafi

--
Dan Espen

[Dan Espen]

As far as I can tell, the major issue is Brexit.
I suppose they can get by without England, but
it's a major setback.

--
Dan Espen

[Dan Espen]

Oh, you're here. You're the idiot participating in a long running
argument on eternal-september.support. Here Ray is running a Usenet
server out of the goodness of his heart and you think he wants to
see that crap.

--
Dan Espen

[Sn!pe]

Yes. I'm the one setting f'ups to the bit bucket.

[Bob Eager]

I think you mean "the UK". They might get Scotland back at some point,
though.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/whats-difference-between-
england-britain-and-uk-180959558/

NOt half as much as it is a setback for the UK, though.

[Dan Espen]

Yeah, we really can't figure it out over here.

> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/whats-difference-between-
> england-britain-and-uk-180959558/
>
> NOt half as much as it is a setback for the UK, though.

Actually, I know, just a momentary lapse. My age is a wonderful
excuse. Pretty soon my posts will really degenerate.

The other day in my Internet travels I happened on
a Scot, Janey Godley. Pretty funny but hard to understand.

--
Dan Espen

[Bob Eager]

On Sun, 09 Aug 2020 17:06:10 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

> The other day in my Internet travels I happened on a Scot, Janey Godley.
> Pretty funny but hard to understand.

Going off-thread a bit...

For want of anything better to do, I;ve been watching old episodes of fly-
on-the-wall programmes about Customs posts around the world. Mainly New
Zealand and Australia, also occasionally England.

Today I switched on and for the first time could not understand some of
the people. Republic of Ireland!

[Peter Flass]

The EU seems to have one foot firmly in each camp. It’s less than a
country, but more than a confederation .

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Aug 2020 17:06:10 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>> The other day in my Internet travels I happened on a Scot, Janey Godley.
>> Pretty funny but hard to understand.
>
> Going off-thread a bit...
>
> For want of anything better to do, I;ve been watching old episodes of fly-
> on-the-wall programmes about Customs posts around the world. Mainly New
> Zealand and Australia, also occasionally England.
>
> Today I switched on and for the first time could not understand some of
> the people. Republic of Ireland!
>

I always get a chuckle about shows that have subtitles for “English”
speakers. Some of them are pretty hard to understand.

--
Pete

[Melzzzzz]

On 2020-08-09, Sn!pe <snip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> IMO Usenet is by far superior to FB, Twitter and Reddit too.
> There are very few web forums that can better it.

Of course!
>


--
current job title: senior software engineer
skills: c++,c,rust,go,nim,haskell...

press any key to continue or any other to quit...
U ničemu ja ne uživam kao u svom statusu INVALIDA -- Zli Zec
Svi smo svedoci - oko 3 godine intenzivne propagande je dovoljno da jedan narod poludi -- Zli Zec
Na divljem zapadu i nije bilo tako puno nasilja, upravo zato jer su svi
bili naoruzani. -- Mladen Gogala

[Melzzzzz]

Problem is that they became political union instead of economic union..
sure way or disaster...

[Rink]

Op 9-8-2020 om 20:34 schreef J. Clarke:

> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 20:09:41 +0200, Rink wrote:
>> Op 9-8-2020 om 19:18 schreef J. Clarke:
>>> On 9 Aug 2020 15:15:22 GMT, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 09 Aug 2020 11:09:29 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

>>>>> On Sun, 09 Aug 2020 10:40, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>>>>>> A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
>>>>>> Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting the
>>>>>> EU on an even basis with the US.
>>>>>> Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end the
>>>>>> curse of the Tower of Babel.
>>>>>
>>>>> My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
>>>>> but with the execution.
>>>>
>>>> It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
>>>> Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
>>>> restriction.
>>>
>>> In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work in 50 countries
>>> and pass between them with no restriction.
>>
>> Those are called States and the form together one country.....
>
> Doesn't matter what you call it, each has its own laws, its own
> courts, and these days its own king.

I was reacting at you phrase:

>>> In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work
>>> in 50 countries and pass between them with no restriction.

It doesn't matter what I call it, or what you call it.
It has a name: United STATES of America.

And as far I know there are no kings in the USA.


And in Europe every member of the EU is a country.

Rink

[Scott Lurndal]

Jason Evans <jse...@mailfence.com> writes:
>From wikipedia:
>
>>
>Eternal September or the September that never ended is Usenet slang for a
>period beginning in September 1993, the month that Internet service
>provider America Online (AOL) began offering Usenet access to its many
>users, overwhelming the existing culture for online forums.
>
>Before then, Usenet was largely restricted to colleges, universities, and
>other research institutions.

And most major (if upstart) computer companies like sun, oracle,
convergent technologies, sequioa, thinking machines, et alia.

[Scott Lurndal]

Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:
>On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 18:53:03 -0500, Dave Garrett wrote:
>
>> In article <rgmj4m$tq3$1...@dont-email.me>, dan1...@gmail.com says...
>>
>>> No, definitely not over.
>>> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
>>
>> I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile,
>> the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of
>> incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their
>> apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
>> alt.politics.home.repair.
>
>WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...

Which is where the most eggregious of the idiotic alt.home.repair posts
are crossposted from....

Like the guy(?) whose sole reason for existence is to post replies to
every one of Rod Speeds posts.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:33:34 GMT
sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Like the guy(?) whose sole reason for existence is to post replies to
> every one of Rod Speeds posts.

I thought that was Rod Speed.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

[J. Clarke]

You haven't seen governors busily making and enforcing new laws
without any regard to the legislature or the courts.

>And in Europe every member of the EU is a country.

OK, tell us how a "state" in the US is different from a "country" in
the EU.

Note, I live in the US, I know how the system works and I really don't
like what I'm seeing happen right now.

[Peter Flass]

No clear definition of state vs. nation va. country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity)

The difference between the US and the EU is the amount of sovereignty the
“states” have given up to the central authority. The EU is relatively
centralized in some areas (product standards, etc.) and decentralized in
others (no centralized armed forces - well, OK, they have something, but
not a real army, and dependent of national contingents). It’s an experiment
and no one knows how will it turn out. Will it become more centralized, and
turn into a real country? Will it come apart? is it possible it can
continue as it is?

--
Pete

[lawrence]

Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:
>>
>> As far as I can tell, the major issue is Brexit.
>> I suppose they can get by without England, but it's a major setback.
>
> I think you mean "the UK". They might get Scotland back at some point,
> though.
>
> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/whats-difference-between-
> england-britain-and-uk-180959558/
>
> NOt half as much as it is a setback for the UK, though.

It's like an amputation at the knee. It's definitely hard on the body,
and it might kill you, but it's definitely going to be a bigger issue
for the foot.

[Peter Flass]

It’s not like they have the Empire to fall back on any more.

--
Pete

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:00:16 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >And in Europe every member of the EU is a country.
>
> OK, tell us how a "state" in the US is different from a "country" in
> the EU.

There's a little matter of recognition by other countries, doing
things like issuing passports (that are accepted), membership in
international organisations (UN, NATO ...). Colorado isn't and can't be a
UN member, France is.

> Note, I live in the US, I know how the system works and I really don't
> like what I'm seeing happen right now.

AIUI the states were proto-nations at the time they combined to
form the United States, they hadn't quite become nations or perhaps had
only just become nations in some cases, they've been combined into the US
for over two hundred years. The European nations OTOH had (for the most
part) centuries of existence as independent nations (much of it spent
fighting each other) before they decided to start the process that has led
to the EU we see today. That process was started in the 1950s.

It may well in the long term be seen as a difference of degree and
timing rather than fundamental - but there are probably some who would
rather see war than a United States of Europe today.

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2020-08-08, Jason Evans <jse...@mailfence.com> wrote:

> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
> and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
> start using Usenet?

I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"

With the exception of spammers and con artists - who will ignore all
advice anyway - the few who find their way here will generally figure
out netiquette themselves, especially if we provide pointers to things
like RFC 1855 (once they figure out what an RFC is...).

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

[Peter Flass]

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2020-08-08, Jason Evans <jse...@mailfence.com> wrote:
>
>> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
>> and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
>> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
>> start using Usenet?
>
> I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
> even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
> fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
> "You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"

That’s one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
always go get them. Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.

--
Pete

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2020-08-11, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
>> even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
>> fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
>> "You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
>
> That’s one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
> always go get them. Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.

Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
screenshots/other images would do just fine.

I don't want to have to devote my full attention to a video for many
minutes if the latter is the case.

Niklas
--
One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking
zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C
programs. -- Robert Firth

[Jason Evans]

On 11 Aug 2020 17:47:05 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would even
> care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The fact that
> Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away. "You mean,
> like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"

That depends on what you mean by "young people". Do you mean the people
who make Tiktok videos and buy Apple products because they are fashion
accessories or do you mean the young STEM enthusiasts who actually care
about technology. *No, they are not the same*.

For the former, no Usenet is not for them.

For the latter, it could be. The attraction to a form of communication
that isn't tied to a single corporation could be quite interesting. When
I write about introducing people to Usenet, this is the group that I am
talking about.

I also have no desire to tell people how to pirate crap from
alt.binaries.* That's where most of the users are because they have no
idea that Usenet is anything but that.

JE

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:26:44 -0700
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.

In today's video we're going to talk about how to do $Y with $X
<I know that's why I selected it> $X is an amazing thing one of the best of
it's kind for several <and on and on and on and on ... with pictures and
sound effects - will you STFU and get to the point>. However it suffers
from $Y which results in <and on and on and on and on ... with animations
and sound effects ... please will you STFU and get to the point>. To fix it
you simply do this <2 seconds of blurred video with the most difficult bits
that you're stuck on already done ... OH FFS! I waited for *this*>. Thank
you for watching you can find more of my amazingly useless done>videos at
https://... <not on your nelly>.

[Dan Espen]

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2020-08-08, Jason Evans <jse...@mailfence.com> wrote:
>
>> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
>> and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
>> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
>> start using Usenet?
>
> I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
> even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
> fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
> "You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
>
> With the exception of spammers and con artists - who will ignore all
> advice anyway - the few who find their way here will generally figure
> out netiquette themselves, especially if we provide pointers to things
> like RFC 1855 (once they figure out what an RFC is...).

Actually Usenet allows html and images. By choice it's forbidden
in most groups.

Oh, yeah, there was that problem of stolen media being posted to Usenet
that caused most ISPs to run away from Usenet.

--
Dan Espen

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2020-08-11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>
> In today's video we're going to talk about how to do $Y with $X
><I know that's why I selected it> $X is an amazing thing one of the best of
> it's kind for several <and on and on and on and on ... with pictures and
> sound effects - will you STFU and get to the point>. However it suffers
> from $Y which results in <and on and on and on and on ... with animations
> and sound effects ... please will you STFU and get to the point>. To fix it
> you simply do this <2 seconds of blurred video with the most difficult bits
> that you're stuck on already done ... OH FFS! I waited for *this*>. Thank
> you for watching you can find more of my amazingly useless done>videos at
> https://... <not on your nelly>.

Sing it, brother!

Niklas
--
"Having major planets disappear is always a bad sign." - Jim Blinn

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 18:39:47 -0000 (UTC)
Jason Evans <jse...@mailfence.com> wrote:

> For the latter, it could be. The attraction to a form of communication
> that isn't tied to a single corporation could be quite interesting. When
> I write about introducing people to Usenet, this is the group that I am
> talking about.

Pretty much the group that populated USENET when it was new, shiny
and seriously limited in bandwidth.

[J. Clarke]

On 11 Aug 2020 18:37:11 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <ank...@yahoo.se> wrote:

>On 2020-08-11, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
>>> even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
>>> fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
>>> "You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
>>
>> That’s one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
>> always go get them. Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.
>
>Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
>out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
>fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
>screenshots/other images would do just fine.

Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
nattering.

The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
cover the material are gold.

[Bob Eager]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:46:32 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

> Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
> some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
> something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
> nattering.
>
> The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
> cover the material are gold.

They all know.

They are just trying to get their 'watched minutes' up to a monetization
threshold.

[Dan Espen]

The absolute best videos on YouTube come from Andrew Camarata.
No BS, he just films what he does.
The production quality rivals the best you see on TV.
No, scratch that, way better than anything on TV.
Many are an hour long and that's way too short.

There's something for everybody amazing scenery, heavy equipment,
dogs, problem solving, humor, and inspiration.

Interestingly Andrew went to college for computer studies but
decided to do heavy equipment instead. Sort of like that guy
in office space.

First time I joined a fan club and I don't even like dogs.
I feel like I should make a pilgrimage to Saugerties.
What a beautiful part of the country.

--
Dan Espen

[Niklas Karlsson]

Exactly! *applause*

Niklas
--
"... I've seen Sun monitors on fire off the side of the multimedia lab.
I've seen NTU lights glitter in the dark near the Mail Gate.
All these things will be lost in time, like the root partition last week.
Time to die...". - Peter Gutmann in alt.sysadmin.recovery

[J. Clarke]

On 11 Aug 2020 19:58:33 GMT, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:46:32 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
>> some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
>> something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
>> nattering.
>>
>> The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
>> cover the material are gold.
>
>They all know.
>
>They are just trying to get their 'watched minutes' up to a monetization
>threshold.

Never attribute to superior business acumen that which can be
explained by stupidity.

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2020-08-11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:26:44 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.
>
> In today's video we're going to talk about how to do $Y with $X
> <I know that's why I selected it> $X is an amazing thing one of the best of
> it's kind for several <and on and on and on and on ... with pictures and
> sound effects - will you STFU and get to the point>. However it suffers
> from $Y which results in <and on and on and on and on ... with animations
> and sound effects ... please will you STFU and get to the point>. To fix it
> you simply do this <2 seconds of blurred video with the most difficult bits
> that you're stuck on already done ... OH FFS! I waited for *this*>. Thank
> you for watching you can find more of my amazingly useless done>videos at
> https://... <not on your nelly>.

Hear, hear. That's why I automatically skip over any YouTube references
when I'm trying to find out how to do $Y with $X. A concise textual
description is _so_ much faster than being forced to sit through a
long-winded pseudo-explanation (plus YouTube's ads at the beginning,
and increasingly in the middle as well).

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2020-08-11, Jason Evans <jse...@mailfence.com> wrote:

> On 11 Aug 2020 17:47:05 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would even
>> care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The fact that
>> Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away. "You mean,
>> like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
>
> That depends on what you mean by "young people". Do you mean the people
> who make Tiktok videos and buy Apple products because they are fashion
> accessories or do you mean the young STEM enthusiasts who actually care
> about technology. *No, they are not the same*.
>
> For the former, no Usenet is not for them.

Indeed, they're the ones I'm referring to. Unfortunately, they seem to be
an overwhelming majority. Fortunately, they're repelled by Usenet because
it's not shiny.

> For the latter, it could be. The attraction to a form of communication
> that isn't tied to a single corporation could be quite interesting. When
> I write about introducing people to Usenet, this is the group that I am
> talking about.

That's a group worth pursuing, small as they may be. And it's not just
the absence of our favourite monopolies that Usenet offers, but also the
potential for concise, well-written text messages. I hate wading through
unnecessary cruft, and video just makes it a thousand times worse.
("A picture is worth...")

> I also have no desire to tell people how to pirate crap from
> alt.binaries.* That's where most of the users are because they have no
> idea that Usenet is anything but that.

Their ignorance is our bliss.

[J. Clarke]

On 11 Aug 2020 22:53:45 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

>On 2020-08-11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:26:44 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.
>>
>> In today's video we're going to talk about how to do $Y with $X
>> <I know that's why I selected it> $X is an amazing thing one of the best of
>> it's kind for several <and on and on and on and on ... with pictures and
>> sound effects - will you STFU and get to the point>. However it suffers
>> from $Y which results in <and on and on and on and on ... with animations
>> and sound effects ... please will you STFU and get to the point>. To fix it
>> you simply do this <2 seconds of blurred video with the most difficult bits
>> that you're stuck on already done ... OH FFS! I waited for *this*>. Thank
>> you for watching you can find more of my amazingly useless done>videos at
>> https://... <not on your nelly>.
>
>Hear, hear. That's why I automatically skip over any YouTube references
>when I'm trying to find out how to do $Y with $X. A concise textual
>description is _so_ much faster than being forced to sit through a
>long-winded pseudo-explanation (plus YouTube's ads at the beginning,
>and increasingly in the middle as well).

Yep. I remember a youtube video which took half an hour explaining
how to get a stuck brake rotor off a Jeep. The magic method? Hit it
_hard_ with a Big Friendly Hammer.

[Nomen Nescio]

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2020-08-08, Jason Evans <jse...@mailfence.com> wrote:
>
>> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
>> and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
>> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
>> start using Usenet?
>
> I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
> even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
> fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
> "You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"

Retro is trendy nowadays.

[Nomen Nescio]

Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> writes:

> Oh, yeah, there was that problem of stolen media being posted to Usenet
> that caused most ISPs to run away from Usenet.

That was not the real reason. Real reason was that binary Usenet was
getting too big and ISPs choices were to either increase the price or
remove service offering for good. When the State of New York opened an
investigation on child pornographers who used Usenet, many ISPs seen it
as opportunity to get rid of the service.

[Nomen Nescio]

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:

> On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:16:09 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

>>
>> Jason Evans <jse...@mailfence.com> writes:
>>
>>> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
>>> living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
>>> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
>>> start using Usenet?
>>

>> No, definitely not over.
>> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
>

> Besides that it's mostly spam flooding Newsgroups today. Nothing to do
> with AOL users. AFAIK AOL does no longer offer usenet access. It's over.

AOL does no offer Usenet access since 2005. However, I don't think
Eternal September is tied to AOL. Yes, it's started with AOL, but it was
bound to happen anyway. It's a problem all communities are facing when
they get too popular.

[Peter Flass]

They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.

--
Pete

[J. Clarke]

It costs time and money to convice a judge of that.

[Dan Espen]

Well, I remember some AG promising to investigate and the next thing I
knew my ISP dropped Usenet.

--
Dan Espen

[J. Clarke]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 21:44:29 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com>
wrote:

In the US you can sue anybody for anything. That doesn't mean that
you'll win, but they still have to put up a defense. If you're sueing
them over something that isn't making enough money for them to pay the
cost of defending it, they'll drop it just to avoid the hassle.

This is one of the things wrong with the US--the courts should be the
last resort, not the first one.

[Helm]

I know alot of young and old people who know about Usenet and are tired
of big tech censorship and algorthmitic manipulation of content feeds

Mailng lists and Usenet Newsgroups are the future. Facebook, reddit,
and even 4chan recently, are all censoring posts. Mailing groups (and
some Usenet newsgroups) have moderation, but once a post is approved it
comes to the top of the post - the user can decide what they do and
don't want to see with a killfile. Here there is no subtle
manipulation. Even web forums are better than Reddit/Facebook. Usenet
also shines because it can be accessed without a web browser - a news
client or any mail client linked to a news2mail gateway can access
Usenet. In certain African and European countries where people have to
pay for each megabyte/gigabyte they use, Usenet is perfect because
there is no extra html bloat with the postings whatsover. It is also
decentralized, so posts are impossible to remove by censors.

For Usenet to take off again reducing spam is essential. I suppose a
public news2mail gateway with anti spam filter should do the job while
making all mail clients a newsreader (thus almost all devices in the
world can instantly access Usenet)

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 18:26:44 GMT, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Or ASCII v UTF!


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 19:28:16 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 18:39:47 -0000 (UTC)
> Jason Evans <jse...@mailfence.com> wrote:
>
>> For the latter, it could be. The attraction to a form of
>> communication that isn't tied to a single corporation could be quite
>> interesting. When I write about introducing people to Usenet, this is
>> the group that I am talking about.
>
> Pretty much the group that populated USENET when it was new,
> shiny
> and seriously limited in bandwidth.
>

Usenet needs marketing to the twitterati, being text only. Oh noes, what
have I done! It's Eternal September all over again!
</Greg Mitchell>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7-D4T-xlkA

[Dan Espen]

At the time I remember it was pretty damn easy to get a copy of a movie
just after it was released from the binary groups.

I don't know enough about the court system to have a strong opinion.
I've heard that in some states if you bring a frivolous suit you can
be liable for court costs.

Maybe court procedures could be simplified to some kind of arbitration
where lawyers would not be involved. I guess someone would still have
to be paid for the court time.

--
Dan Espen

[gareth evans]

On 10/08/2020 16:33, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Like the guy(?) whose sole reason for existence is to post replies to
> every one of Rod Speeds posts.

Peeler?

In his futile efforts to proscribe what he thinks to be SPAM,
he has become the dominant SPAMMER.

BTW, Should you get an email about Pork Luncheon Meat,
then ignore it, for it is SPAM.

[gareth evans]

On 12/08/2020 01:29, Peter Flass wrote:
>
> They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.
>

Not sure that's the way of things today, with organisations
such as Facebook being brought to account because of user-posted
material.

But, yes, I agree, the postal services are not reponsible for
the contents of what they carry and that same principle should be
extended to ISPs.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:50:46 +0100
gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 12/08/2020 01:29, Peter Flass wrote:
> >
> > They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.
> >
>

> But, yes, I agree, the postal services are not reponsible for
> the contents of what they carry and that same principle should be
> extended to ISPs.

ISPs have always claimed 'common carrier' status and declined any
responsibility for the actions of their users, which in the days of
dial-up ISPs hosting small websites, mail lists and USENET for their users
was sensible. What is going on now is that this is being challenged by cases
being brought against the big social media companies. As I see it their
trouble is going to be that they are *already* filtering and blocking
people and imposing conditions on content after the content has already
been published.

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Wed, 2020-08-12, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:50:46 +0100
> gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12/08/2020 01:29, Peter Flass wrote:
>> >
>> > They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.
>> >
>>
>> But, yes, I agree, the postal services are not reponsible for
>> the contents of what they carry and that same principle should be
>> extended to ISPs.
>
> ISPs have always claimed 'common carrier' status and declined any
> responsibility for the actions of their users, which in the days of
> dial-up ISPs hosting small websites, mail lists and USENET for their users
> was sensible. What is going on now is that this is being challenged by cases
> being brought against the big social media companies. As I see it their
> trouble is going to be that they are *already* filtering and blocking
> people and imposing conditions on content after the content has already
> been published.

If I were Facebook or Google, I would be secretly delighted by such
responsibilities: it must be hard for a small actor today to afford
the censorship, either software filters or human censors.

If Usenet somehow became more popular and useful again, someone would
come along and crush it.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .

[Jason Evans]

On 12 Aug 2020 15:26:32 GMT, Jorgen Grahn wrote:

> If Usenet somehow became more popular and useful again, someone would
> come along and crush it.

They could take the big backbone servers offline whose entire business
model is providing a way to download pirated material and calling it
Usenet. They could possibly even find everyone that hosts smaller text-
only servers though that would be pretty difficult.

When you read about the early days, Usenet at its true core was always
about discussion. All you need are 2 or more servers peering and talking
NNTP to each other and you have a new Usenet.

__
JE

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 12 Aug 2020 15:26:32 GMT

Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> wrote:

> If Usenet somehow became more popular and useful again, someone would
> come along and crush it.

USENET was always hard to crush, as long as there are people
running servers and exchanging feeds USENET is running. I keep thinking it
would be a good thing to do to set one up here (text only of course).

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2020-08-12, J Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In the US you can sue anybody for anything. That doesn't mean that
> you'll win, but they still have to put up a defense. If you're sueing
> them over something that isn't making enough money for them to pay the
> cost of defending it, they'll drop it just to avoid the hassle.

There's a variation of this known as SLAPP:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation

[Questor]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:20:54 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 11 Aug 2020 18:37:11 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <ank...@yahoo.se> wrote:
>>>On 2020-08-11, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
>>>>>even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
>>>>>fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
>>>>>"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
>>>>
>>>>That's one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
>>>>always go get them. Let's not even talk about (ugh) videos.
>>>
>>>Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
>>>out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
>>>fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
>>>screenshots/other images would do just fine.
>>
>>Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
>>some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
>>something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
>>nattering.
>>
>>The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
>>cover the material are gold.
>
>The absolute best videos on YouTube come from Andrew Camarata.

I highly recommend the videos of Mark Rober.

Mark Rober is a former NASA engineer whose work includes designing some of the
instrumentation for one of the Mars rovers. In addition to showcasing his
inventiveness and design skills, the videos' writing, pacing, camera work, and
editing are all excellent. Some topics include building a giant super soaker,
dropping a car onto a custom trampoline, creating a glitter bomb in response to
package thieves, trying to design a squirrel-proof bird feeder, some high-tech
Halloween costumes, and explaining how the physics behind seemingly simple
carnival games of skill make them so hard to beat. His data-driven approach is
interesting, entertaining, and at times informative, and he doesn't get bogged
down in the details.

http://www.youtube.com/c/MarkRober/videos

[lawrence]

Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.

Not *now*.

There was a time before Section 230.

--
echo "lawre...@abaluon.abaom" | sed -e 's/aba/c/g'

[Dan Espen]

Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
I figured they were close.

I also figured there's a certain amount of moisture which would be a lot
more dense than air. I also figured the fart inside your body is under pressure.
Mark didn't consider either of these factors.

The fart is going to be at 98F. Mark didn't mention air temperature or
altitude at all.

Since air density is 1.2 kg/m^3 and methane is .67 kg/m^3 I'm guessing
he's right.

So, did not subscribe. A bit too simple minded for me.

Another guy I like is Thoisoi2 who does chemistry.
Chemistry for grownups. He did one on iodine a while back.
Before that, I'd never seen iodine in it's metallic state.

--
Dan Espen

[Andreas Eder]

On So 09 Aug 2020 at 10:40, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
> the curse of the Tower of Babel.

It is not a curse. It is more of a blessing.
I like the diofferent languages.

'Andreas

[Dan Espen]

A blessing?

3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
that you know?

The original bible story has stood for the last 2000 years as an
parable of a curse imposed on humanity. That's been pretty much
unquestioned.

There is an intelligence sharing organization called the Five Eyes
consisting of the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK.
These 5 countries trust each other more than they trust other
major powers like Germany and France. They all have something
in common and I don't mean their skin color.

Periodically in the USA we have the more paranoid among us wanting
to pass laws to make English the countries "official" language.

There's a huge economic cost to having to cope with all the
different languages in the world. We have instruction manuals
5 times larger than they have to be in tiny print because
they try to serve customers that can't understand a common
language. We have translators hired so that business people
and politicians can attempt to understand each other.

Great ideas in written works can't reach people unless they
are translated to other languages.

I know I won't see it in the time I have left to live
but someday we'll all understand each other a little better
and a common language will help that along, and the Internet
will contribute to that happening.

--
Dan Espen

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
> that you know?

Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
today? Certainly.

However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
unfortunate.

The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
places.

Niklas
--
Not as in "I have a better offer, do what I say", but simply "I'll
resign if you don't do what I say". I didn't want them to beat a
price, I wanted them to beat the people causing problems.
-- Joe Thompson

[Dan Espen]

Niklas Karlsson <ank...@yahoo.se> writes:

> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>> that you know?
>
> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
> today? Certainly.
>
> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
> unfortunate.
>
> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
> places.

Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
and counter productive.

Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.

If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.

--
Dan Espen

[Dave Garland]

If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.

Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
language I already know.

[Dan Espen]

I don't think that's going to happen.
First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.

No, I am not trying to push English just because I speak it.


--
Dan Espen

[gareth evans]

On 13/08/2020 16:49, Dan Espen wrote:
> First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,

Cymraeg.

[Peter Flass]

That’s apparently what “jive talk” does. The construct “x be y” apparently
expresses a continuing action, carried forward from african. (or
something like that). x is y now, and will be for the foreseeable future.
I’m not sure it’s the same syntax or something else that expresses a
habitual condition. x is often y.
--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

Mandarin has a lot of native speakers, but few outside of China. The
educated elites of just about everywhere speak English (thanks, British
Empire), and it’s largely the language of science. A lot of archaeology
papers are in German or French, however.

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

This has it’s own problems. When Turkey changed from Arabic Script to a
variant of the roman alphabet much of their literature and history
gradually became unreadable without a special effort on the part of native
Turkish speakers. Not to say it wasn’t a smart long-term move, but it
wasn’t pain-free.

--
Pete

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2020-08-13, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Mandarin has a lot of native speakers, but few outside of China. The
> educated elites of just about everywhere speak English (thanks, British
> Empire), and it’s largely the language of science. A lot of archaeology
> papers are in German or French, however.

British Empire? Yeah, I guess that contributed, but I'm inclined to
assign much more of the credit to the current American hegemony.

Here in Sweden, I think much of it can be attributed to Hollywood. We
don't dub movies if they're for an audience old enough to read, only
subtitle. I think that does quite a lot for your average Swede's ability
with English. Quite possibly more than the mandatory English subject in
school does.

My own English was mainly acquired through computer use from an early
age (I was born in 1980). Yes, translated software existed even then,
but only in a certain few cases. There wasn't much you could do without
running into English.

Niklas
--
At last, a weapon that blows up and sucks.
-- Mike Andrews

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2020-08-13, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think that's going to happen.
>> First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
>> but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.
>>
>
> This has it’s own problems. When Turkey changed from Arabic Script to a
> variant of the roman alphabet much of their literature and history
> gradually became unreadable without a special effort on the part of native
> Turkish speakers. Not to say it wasn’t a smart long-term move, but it
> wasn’t pain-free.

That's also a very good point. History matters.

Niklas
--
When being picked up against their will by larger creatures, cats and human
children share not only the ability to temporarily sprout extra limbs and
perform incredible acts of contortionism, but also to temporarily increase their
weight.

[Dan Espen]

Well, the whole incident seemed bizarre to me. Here I was working in a
communications company writing specs and designing systems and this guy
was advocating a really vague form of communicating.

Not that I'm against diversity. I don't mind diverse things that are
improvements.

--
Dan Espen

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 13 Aug 2020 17:02:03 GMT

Niklas Karlsson <ank...@yahoo.se> wrote:

> On 2020-08-13, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Mandarin has a lot of native speakers, but few outside of China. The
> > educated elites of just about everywhere speak English (thanks, British
> > Empire), and it’s largely the language of science. A lot of archaeology
> > papers are in German or French, however.
>
> British Empire? Yeah, I guess that contributed, but I'm inclined to

It got things started.

> assign much more of the credit to the current American hegemony.

Agreed, particularly American TV and films. Even here in Ireland
with the UK right next door you hear more Americanisms than Britishisms.

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2020-08-12, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
> I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
> If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
> I figured they were close.

Who needs Google (or even DuckDuckGo, if you'd rather not
put up with the surveillance)? Methane (CH4) has a molecular
weight of 16, while air, being a mixture of roughly 80% N2
(molecular weight 28) and 20% O2 (molecular weight 32),
averages out to about 29. Methane is considerably lighter.

> I also figured there's a certain amount of moisture which
> would be a lot more dense than air.

Depends on whether you think of it as liquid water (800
times as dense as air) or water vapour (molecular weight 18).

> I also figured the fart inside your body is under pressure.
> Mark didn't consider either of these factors.

The pressure would be a small fraction of an atmosphere,
so it shouldn't be significant.

> The fart is going to be at 98F. Mark didn't mention
> air temperature or altitude at all.

98F is about 310K; room temperature air (say, 70F) would be
about 294K. That's only about a 5% change. As for altitude,
both the fart and the ambient air will expand by the same
amount. Farting at altitude is just equalization, after all. :-)

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
> and counter productive.

But it's also Politically Correct, so it's gaining a lot of
traction, even in places where it's demonstrably harmful.

> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.

I think I heard something a while back about people trying to
get "Ebonics" established as a valid dialect. Feh.

> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>
> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.

English has been referred to as a "kleptolect".

[Dan Espen]

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>> and counter productive.
>
> But it's also Politically Correct, so it's gaining a lot of
> traction, even in places where it's demonstrably harmful.
>
>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>
> I think I heard something a while back about people trying to
> get "Ebonics" established as a valid dialect. Feh.

Yeah, I remember that. Ebonics is just people playing with the
language. IMHO, it might be fun but it's not productive.
It reduces instead of improves communication.

It's sort of like the way people in India pronounce English.
It sounds to me like they're trying to "sing" the language.

Back when I lived in the Bronx, I had friends with the funny
Bronx accent. Thankfully, television sort of wiped that out.
Now we all speak like mid-westerners, where my parents came from.
Seems to me that's the best way to speak English. Clearly.

--
Dan Espen

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 13 Aug 2020 21:05:01 GMT

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> English has been referred to as a "kleptolect".

“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”
- James D. Nicoll

[Dan Espen]

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2020-08-12, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
>> I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
>> If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
>> I figured they were close.
>
> Who needs Google (or even DuckDuckGo, if you'd rather not
> put up with the surveillance)? Methane (CH4) has a molecular
> weight of 16, while air, being a mixture of roughly 80% N2
> (molecular weight 28) and 20% O2 (molecular weight 32),
> averages out to about 29. Methane is considerably lighter.

Without knowing any of that, I guess I could have gotten there
by knowing that Methane is CH4. The Carbon is in the same
neighborhood as Oxygen and Nitrogen but the Hydrogen is
the lightest element by far.

As for Google surveillance, please Google remember everything
I type. I love when I type the letter Y and it knows I want
YouTube. I've got nothing to hide.

I normally run Firefox with an ad-blocker. I had no idea that YouTube shows
ads. To help these companies out during the shut down,
when I had to switch to Google Chrome
I didn't install an ad blocker. It's funny, I bought some rubber
gym flooring. Now everywhere I go I see rubber flooring ads.
I already bought the stuff, do they really think I'm going to buy more?

So, now Google knows I'm also interested in farts and density.
Doesn't matter to me.

--
Dan Espen

[John Levine]

In article <rh3ndi$87o$1...@dont-email.me>,

Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
>> common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
>> 12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
>> dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
>>
>> Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
>> language I already know.
>
>I don't think that's going to happen.
>First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
>but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.

Don't be ridiculous. One of the great advantages of written Chinese is
that it is a common language for over a billion people with very
different spoken languages (as different as French and Portuguese, I
hear.) A large part of it is also common with Japanese kanji.

Anyway, there is a common phonetic alphabet for Mandarin called
pinyin. That's how you type Chinese into your computer or phone.

--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

[J. Clarke]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:12:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The software that makes the determination of what kind of ad to
present appears to be an example of the "artificial stupidity" branch
of AI. How many washing machines do they think someone buys in a
lifetime?